Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
2020-10-30
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Site and forum feedback : defender via Audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. Yeah but again that's why I'm saying that none of the proposals should include a (Pfft piracy) option. That isn't complete democracy, but that's not really what I was aiming for anyway, just more user input than the last time.There are some things that we know will mess up the community, and piracy is one of them, as we're already such a bad market segment to invest in.We can't control whether or not the webmasters will pass on or even react to any DMCA notices, but we can control this.And we already know some of the impacts that hypervigilance around misuse can cause too. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/584624/#p584624 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
2020-10-29
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Site and forum feedback : camlorn via Audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. From the legal side, and again not a lawyer etc, I believe the determining factor here is whether or not audiogames.net is behind a legal entity. The mods are in very different positions if they're hired by a company, as opposed to just being free agents with some permissions to the database. In the former case it's clear whose head it falls on first, though if such a legal entity decided to throw the mods under the bus they could do so.I won't bother making a moral argument, but I will make a quality argument. I don't think any of us are going to ask for a db witch hunt, in the world where legality isn't a concern. But this is a good way to push devs out. If this goes to a vote of some sort and half the community is like "pfft piracy", that's going to be another nail in the coffin of devs not wanting to be here. I won't leave over it: the kinds of things I do aren't pirateable anyway, I'm one of the few experienced people with actual answers instead of more questions, and I've got a thick skin. So I want to be clear this isn't some sort of threat. But it is definitely alienating if/when it becomes clear that there's a contingent who hasn't got a problem with stealing from other people, because you might be the next person on that list, and I think that in general this community should really start thinking about why we've lost multiple high profile devs rather than continually resisting change. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/584537/#p584537 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
2020-10-29
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Site and forum feedback : defender via Audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. @JaydeIf someone gives the site an official takedown notice, but it's never communicated to the mod team, than common sense says that would fall on the ones who received it an no one else personally. It could definitely cause a takedown of the site, eventually, but that would likely take months or more of inaction, as we aren't some big Youtube or Twitch channel.If it's unofficial, than everything goes into a gray area that isn't worth the cost or time of legal action, and the first advice from a lawyer would almost certainly be to make an official request instead. Unless it happens dozens of times, a case would be incredibly hard to build. Even then it wouldn't be easy...You guys don't even have your real names associated with this site. The amount you'd have to let slide in order to even get noticed by someone with the power to put you in personal danger is astronomical. We're talking consistently hosting links to lots of child porn or assisting in the sale of large quantities of illegal drugs here...If you're talking about it from a moral point of view, that's your issue and shouldn't apply to this at all unless the community generally feels the same way, which I'm pretty sure they don't. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/584392/#p584392 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
2020-10-29
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Site and forum feedback : defender via Audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. @JaydeIf someone gives the site an official takedown notice, but it's never communicated to the mod team, than common sense says that would fall on the ones who received it an no one else personally. It could definitely cause a takedown of the site, eventually, but that would likely take months or more of inaction, as we aren't some big Youtube or Twitch channel.If it's unofficial, than everything goes into a gray area that isn't worth the cost or time of legal action, and the first advice from a lawyer would almost certainly be to make an official request instead. Unless it happens dozens of times, a case would be incredibly hard to build. Even then it wouldn't be easy...You guys don't even have your real names associated with this site. The amount you'd have to let slide in order to even get noticed by someone with the power to put you in personal danger is astronomical. We're talking hosting links to lots of child porn or assisting in the sale of large quantities of illegal drugs here...If you're talking about it from a moral point of view, that's your issue and shouldn't apply to this at all unless the community generally feels the same way, which I'm pretty sure they don't. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/584392/#p584392 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
2020-10-29
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Site and forum feedback : defender via Audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. @JaydeIf someone gives the site an official takedown notice, but it's never communicated to the mod team, than common sense says that would fall on the ones who received it an no one else personally. It could definitely cause a takedown of the site, eventually, but that would likely take months or more of inaction, as we aren't some big Youtube or Twitch channel.If it's unofficial, than everything goes into a gray area that isn't worth the cost or time of legal action, and the first advice from a lawyer would almost certainly be to make an official request instead. Unless it happens dozens of times, a case would be incredibly hard to build. Even then it wouldn't be easy...You guys don't even have your real names associated with this site. The amount you'd have to let slide in order to even get noticed by someone with the power to put you in personal danger is astronomical. We're talking lots of child porn or illegal hard drugs here...If you're talking about it from a moral point of view, that's your issue and shouldn't apply to this at all unless the community generally feels the same way, which I'm pretty sure they don't. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/584392/#p584392 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
2020-10-29
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Site and forum feedback : defender via Audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. @JaydeIf someone gives the site an official takedown notice, but it's never communicated to the mod team, than common sense says that would fall on the ones who received it an no one else personally. It could definitely cause a takedown of the site, eventually, but that would likely take months or more of inaction, as we aren't some big Youtube or Twitch channel.If it's unofficial, than everything goes into a gray area that isn't worth the cost or time of legal action, and the first advice from a lawyer would almost certainly be to make an official request instead. Unless it happens dozens of times, a case would be incredibly hard to build. Even then it wouldn't be easy...You guys don't even have your real names associated with this site. The amount you'd have to do to even get noticed by someone with the power to put you in personal danger is astronomical. We're talking lots of child porn or illegal hard drugs here...If you're talking about it from a moral point of view, that's your issue and shouldn't apply to this at all unless the community generally feels the same way, which I'm pretty sure they don't. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/584392/#p584392 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
2020-10-29
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Site and forum feedback : defender via Audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. @JaydeIf someone gives the site an official takedown notice, but it's never communicated to the mod team, than common sense says that would fall on the ones who received it an no one else personally. It could definitely cause a takedown of the site, eventually, but that would likely take months or more of inaction.If it's unofficial, than everything goes into a gray area that isn't worth the cost or time of legal action, and the first advice from a lawyer would almost certainly be to make an official request instead. Unless it happens dozens of times, a case would be incredibly hard to build. Even then it wouldn't be easy...You guys don't even have your real names associated with this site. The amount you'd have to do to even get noticed by someone with the power to put you in personal danger is astronomical. We're talking lots of child porn or illegal hard drugs here... URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/584392/#p584392 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. We have the ability to edit the database, insofar as adding or removing games. We have the ability to remove links, redact or outright delete posts. We have been trusted to do this by the webmasters and by prior and current members of the staff team.This denotes responsibility.If we truly had no way to limit what you do, then no, obviously we aren't responsible. But from a legal standpoint, there is precedent to suggest that this sort of thing can come down to a question of whether we knowingly turned our backs on copyright violation. If we did, and we're the only ones that can be caught out front for it, then we're the ones who will be held at least partially responsible. We will not be able to pass all responsibility off to Richard and Sander.As such, my prior point stands. If we're potentially on the hook for consequences, then we should have a right to protect ourselves, even if it means shaking up the tradition of turning a blind eye to questionable practices. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/584380/#p584380 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. That is true, and believe me I thought the same thing. However, as you know, our webmasters been inactive. What if a DMCA notice happens, and hypothetically, they don't respond? Agnet could be busted within, well, days, if that sort of thing happened. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/584353/#p584353 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. Jayde wrote:First of all, there will be no nasty surprises from the staff team. I trust most of you can agree that we've been pretty transparent about this whole thing. Yes, we mishandled the Vast Horizon thing, if only because it looked like we were playing favourites with something we really haven't enforced elsewhere yet. We acknowledged this and have since been quite clear both with regard to our plans and intentions, and with regard to our willingness to incorporate player feedback.Concept clones - that is, a game or project that is similar in its execution to something else - get into trouble only if they're borrowing very directly from their source. Manamon has a lot in common with pokemon, but as I've pointed out before, if Temtem can get away with it and be mainstream, Manamon isn't going to have any problems. Crazy Party being a sort of Mario Party+Pokemon hybrid...again, concept clones, but that's not the end of the world, although the card-battle aspect really does have quite a lot of pokemon stuff, right down to types and dozens of move names. I'm not sure if that alone would cause legal trouble - I suspect not - but it's a little gray.The issue we're discussing here is the unauthorized use of assets, sounds in particular.So I haven't seen any evidence to suggest that a straight-up vote is a good idea, but I think that users being able to submit feedback about our proposed plan before that plan is enforced is a happy middle ground. This doesn't mean that if twelve of you get really loud and pushy, we'll just scrap it, but it does mean that if something is structurally wrong, or if there's a loophole we haven't found, we'll patch it. I think this is a compromise. Since responsibility rests with us, the actual ability to make that decision should probably rest with us as well. But since this ruling will impact some of you, you have a right to have a meaningful say in how it's set up.On a side-note: Sarah is one of those games I've wanted to play for just about forever. I feel like I bought the game way way back in like 2012 or something, never got a key and then forgot to follow through on it. I'm not even sure if it works anymore. But that game, as an example, definitely falls into bad territory. It's using a lot of things that belong to JK Rowling and actually making money off them. And I mean, at this point I'm not JK Rowling's biggest fan - she's pretty much lost all of my respect - but that doesn't justify using the things she created to make yourself a profit. Unless, of course, this game actually got the go-ahead in an official capacity, the same way some of G. Norman Lippert's fanfiction has?Sorry but how does responsibility rest with you? You're a third party, legally speaking. You're just hired to enforce the rules that the webmasters have set up, and they've not told you to do this. All the legal responsibility would be on their heads. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/584341/#p584341 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. @defender: Not necessarily. Hiring someone to sound design off of their existing sound library collection is still hiring a sound designer/editor, as long as you can afford whatever rate they choose. The Fiver model is busted, so I usually aim a bit higher. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583931/#p583931 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
2020-10-27
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Site and forum feedback : camlorn via Audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. @205There's a ton of blind musicians and stuff now. Presumably, there were a ton then as well. I've certainly got friends with stories from back then.By the nature of economics, if you've got a blind person on SSI who does music and audio stuff for fun and you go "hey, can I pay you $5 for some sounds" they're going to go yeah, because that's just how that works. And that's always been true.Obviously free stuff makes it easier and sure, we have that now. But I'm not sure what your point is exactly? Hopefully not "nevermind ethics and legality because this used to be harder and having games is more important"? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583930/#p583930 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
2020-10-27
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Site and forum feedback : defender via Audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. @CamlornSo if I'm understanding you correctly, your talking about paying someone to either create or record sounds for you instead of buying an expensive sound library or partial sound library from a distributer?Because that would require said person to have the equipment setup to do so, and you still likely wouldn't get the quality or quantity you'd need for a bigger game easily. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583922/#p583922 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
2020-10-27
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Site and forum feedback : camlorn via Audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. @202I don't really see that as an excuse, not post-internet. Blind people have been doing audio stuff since the days of dos. I'd need a hell of a lot more convincing that you couldn't find people to collaborate with back then before I'd accept that as an argument.Also you don't need to use free sounds either. We just make a big deal of that here because primarily the developers are 15 with no money. But if you find a blind person to collaborate with, then you could pay them something on the scale of what SSI people could afford anyway, so it's not like you couldn't hire someone.irregardless of anything else this community does a wonderful job of buying the "I'm blind and have no money therefore free assets is a must" story. And yeah, sure, but it's not like sighted kids aren't in exactly the same spot, or sighted adults for that matter. It's a fair point. But can we please not extend it to some sort of valid reason to pirate? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583905/#p583905 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. The site Philip used to obtain free sounds, ljudo.com, is not even around anymore, so that should tell you all you need to know about free sound sources not really taking off at the time. Creative Commons wasn't even big back then. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583895/#p583895 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
2020-10-27
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Site and forum feedback : defender via Audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. @camlornThat, and high quality legal free/low cost sounds didn't really exist back then, or if they did they were extremely niche and hard to find, and often very limited in quantity or variety. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583892/#p583892 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
2020-10-27
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Site and forum feedback : defender via Audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. @camlornThat, and high quality legal free/low cost sounds didn't really exist back then, or if they did they were extremely niche and hard to find, and often very limited in variety. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583892/#p583892 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
2020-10-27
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Site and forum feedback : camlorn via Audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. It is generally safe to assume that a game which is copying assets from a game by a big sighted publisher didn't have permission. They don't give permission. They never really have. They're certainly not going to start with giving permission to audiogameds.net people.The world changed. People care about piracy more than they did. We won't get taken down until and unless we get labeled a piracy site, but if we fail to comply with DMCA takedowns it is possible for the domain name and the server to be seized.What everyone forgets about the really old games is that back in the 90s and early 2000s people kind of just didn't care about piracy. The culture used to very much be games by and for nerds. There wasn't even really a legal framework for it. Almost uniquely among human invention, the internet and computers in general were able to outpace the legal system by a *huge* amount. I wasn't old enough to be involved in that culture, but I could very well see the creators of doom going "cool, there's a version for blind people" and not caring if assets were used (though assets being used is news to me, and in general for something with as minimal a sound design as that thing has, it's trivially easy to end up sounding similar). But now it's multi-billion dollar corporations with massive legal teams defending their multi-billion dollar assets.My point being it's not audiogames.net to blame for old games that are known to have pirated assets. The assets shouldn't have been pirated in the first place even back then, but that's not our fault, the chances of those developers being able to say "yeah I got permission" is basically nil even if they were around. Aim your frustrations at your congressman, the problem here is that copyright and trademark law are way too strict. In my opinion "I borrowed some sounds and made a version for blind people" should be fair use, or at least the kind of thing where there should be some sort of leniency because it's not profitable and not something that the original publisher would want to do. Maybe give them an option to take over the project or something, I dunno. But my point is that in the broader context of older games not having authors around and this kind of sucking for them, it's not audiogames.net to blame for really unforgiving laws. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583887/#p583887 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
2020-10-27
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Site and forum feedback : queenslight via Audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. Sadly, the following questions may never get answered, unless someone contacts David Phil, and all other gaming devs directly (or if they ever see this thread somewhere). 1. Where did they originally get the sounds? 2. Did they ever get permission from official publishers to make them?3. Where the games just purely made for fans to enjoy?Same goes for ESP Softworks/Adora Entertainment/Draconis Entertainment. I never asked James North where he gotten said sounds. Would Draconis even say if they did? Considering that particular company does not share secrets?Me wonders if one of yall (if you had the time), went through all of the games found in the data base, and saw which games actually gotten permission to use their sounds.Yes you'd have to go through the ReadMes of each one, but that may be necessary to do so, for proper conclusion to this mess.In some ways, comparing this battle on here, is similar to what's going on with YouTube and copyright. But that thread's already been made.PS. Trek 2000 is "Freeware" now and has been for sometime, but who knows with that one. Although Sarah does not have any music to do with Harry Potter, that menu music though? Hmmm...Oh Ten Pin Alley... I hope Phil got permission for that song...Alien Outback does use some midi songs, though not all of them are. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583867/#p583867 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
2020-10-27
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Site and forum feedback : queenslight via Audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. Sadly, the following questions may never get answered, unless someone contacts David Phil, and all other gaming devs directly (or if they ever see this thread somewhere). 1. Where did they originally get the sounds? 2. Did they ever get permission from official publishers to make them?3. Where the games just purely made for fans to enjoy?Same goes for ESP Softworks/Adora Entertainment/Draconis Entertainment. I never asked James North where he gotten said sounds. Would Draconis even say if they did? Considering that particular company does not share secrets?Me wonders if one of yall (if you had the time), went through all of the games found in the data base, and saw which games actually gotten permission to use their sounds.Yes you'd have to go through the ReadMes of each one, but that may be necessary to do so, for proper conclusion to this mess.In some ways, comparing this battle on here, is similar to what's going on with YouTube and copyright. But that thread's already been made.PS. Trek 2000 is "Freeware" now and has been for sometime, but who knows with that one. Although Sarah does not have any music to do with Harry Potter, that menu music though? Hmmm... URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583867/#p583867 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
2020-10-27
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Site and forum feedback : queenslight via Audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. Sadly, the following questions may never get answered, unless someone contacts David Phil, and all other gaming devs directly (or if they ever see this thread somewhere). 1. Where did they originally get the sounds? 2. Did they ever get permission from official publishers to make them?3. Where the games just purely made for fans to enjoy?Same goes for ESP Softworks/Adora Entertainment/Draconis Entertainment. I never asked James North where he gotten said sounds. Would Draconis even say if they did? Considering that particular company does not share secrets?Me wonders if one of yall (if you had the time), went through all of the games found in the data base, and saw which games actually gotten permission to use their sounds.Yes you'd have to go through the ReadMes of each one, but that may be necessary to do so, for proper conclusion to this mess.In some ways, comparing this battle on here, is similar to what's going on with YouTube and copyright. But that thread's already been made. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583867/#p583867 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
2020-10-27
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Site and forum feedback : queenslight via Audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. Sadly, the following questions may never get answered, unless someone contacts David Phil, and all other gaming devs directly (or if they ever see this thread somewhere). 1. Where did they originally get the sounds? 2. Did they ever get permission from official publishers to make them?3. Where the games just purely made for fans to enjoy?Same goes for ESP Softworks/Adora Entertainment/Draconis Entertainment. I never asked James North where he gotten said sounds. Would Draconis even say if they did? Considering that particular company does not share secrets?Me wonders if one of yall (if you had the time), went through all of the games found in the data base, and saw which games actually gotten permission to use their sounds.Yes you'd have to go through the ReadMes of each one, but that may be necessary. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583867/#p583867 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
2020-10-27
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Site and forum feedback : queenslight via Audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. Sadly, the following questions may never get answered, unless someone contacts David Phil, and all other gaming devs directly (or if they ever see this thread somewhere). 1. Where did they originally get the sounds? 2. Did they ever get permission from official publishers to make them?3. Where the games just purely made for fans to enjoy?Same goes for ESP Softworks/Adora Entertainment/Draconis Entertainment. I never asked James North where he gotten said sounds. Would Draconis even say if they did? Considering that particular company does not share secrets?Me wonders if one of yall (if you had the time), went through all of the games found in the data base, and ctually see which games actually gotten permission to use their sounds. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583867/#p583867 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
2020-10-27
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Site and forum feedback : queenslight via Audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. Sadly, the following questions may never get answered, unless someone contacts David Phil, and all other gaming devs directly (or if they ever see this thread somewhere). 1. Where did they originally get the sounds? 2. Did they ever get permission from official publishers to make them?3. Where the games just purely made for fans to enjoy?Same goes for ESP Softworks/Adora Entertainment/Draconis Entertainment. I never asked James North where he gotten said sounds. Would Draconis even say if they did? Considering that particular company does not share secrets?Me wonders if one of yall 9if you had the time), went through all of the games found in the data base, and ctually see which games actually gotten permission to use their sounds. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583867/#p583867 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
2020-10-27
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Site and forum feedback : queenslight via Audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. Sadly, the following questions may never get answered, unless someone contacts David Phil, and all other gaming devs directly (or if they ever see this thread somewhere). directly.Where did they originally get the sounds? Did they ever get permission from official publishers to make them?Or were the games just purely made for fans to enjoy?Same goes for ESP Softworks/Adora Entertainment/Draconis Entertainment. I never asked James North where he gotten said sounds. Would Draconis even say if they did? Considering that particular company does not share secrets? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583867/#p583867 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
2020-10-27
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Site and forum feedback : keyIsFull via Audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. Yeah that was a really weird phrasing of your post queenslight:Quote:@188Same goes for all PCS Games really, and GMA Games too, since they are like brothers in how they work together.What exactly do you mean by same goes? You could argue that shades of doom uses sounds from doom, which I know at least the 1.2 version does, not sure about the new one. I know that the 2.0 version uses a few sounds from the Locutus mod and I'm not sure if that was with or without his permission. I have a distant memory maybe that it was though. Tank commander, superdogs bone hunt, lone wolf, VIP Mud, GMA Dice, GMA Lander, GMA Cards, and GMA Mine buster are probably okay. Trek 2000 might not be though, since those are definitely star trek sounds being used. Neither is Pacman talks or Sarah. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583852/#p583852 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
2020-10-27
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Site and forum feedback : superb via Audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. So, Jayde, my question is, will all PCS and GMA titles be nuked? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583850/#p583850 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
2020-10-27
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Site and forum feedback : ashleygrobler04 via Audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. couldn't some one run a newer and better working version... URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583803/#p583803 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
2020-10-27
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Site and forum feedback : musicalman via Audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. *sighs* agreeing with 194 here.I know the mods want to be fair and deal with any games which are guilty, not just new ones, not just ones reported by devs. No, we have to treat all of them fairly. The trouble is this isn't really a fair situation. Too many people have too many different ideas, and the whole thing is surrounded by grey area.I am confident I am not alone when I say "If you nuke one, what are you going to do with the 100 more brought to your attention?" some of those will be brought up in so-called bad faith, but many others will not. The potential is there to be overwhelmed by reports, and at the absolute worst, nuking links to half the games in the database or the database entries themselves. If the mods don't turn it into a witch hunt, the community will, and it'll steamroll, to the point of becoming a legitimate problem.I am concerned about the VH soundpack situation. Sure, some people overdramatized it when the VH soundpack was cracked down on, but if that, a relatively clear-cut case, generated the reaction it did, and even an apology from the mods for the delivery! Then I have trouble trusting other games to be handled more gracefully. Look, I know we're all learning here, but we've been spending a lot of time hashing this out and I don't feel like it's actually doing us good. I really hope I am wrong though and that something good comes out of this.I know some people won't like this, but I feel like the best way to proceed is to only do something if pressed to do so by a creator, or someone who represents a creator. I know we're trying to avoid legal hot water here, but has there been a case where one illegal group of stolen assets resulted in a complete takedown of a sight and an all-out law suit? We're not hosting roms, we're not hosting pirated content, we're not hosting shady torrents. To my knowledge, any of the big stuff we could get sued for is not here. We're not even hosting games or directly endorsing stolen assets. We're just promoting them as games and distributing links to said games, and we can't take responsibility for what devs do, as we're not in any way directing or biasing them to do one thing or another. If they choose to steal assets, we don't endorse that, but we can't fairly keep track of all assets in all games either, that's not our jobs. Even if we try, there's no nice Utopian rule we can enforce. I think we can all agree. We can certainly take games off the site if asked, but in my opinion at least, and it's probably a stupid and generally unfavored one, but a simple take-down is all we should have to do.I know this is an old sticking point, but I legitimately need clarification for why this has to be the way the ball rolls, since right now I feel like we're coming off as a bit paranoid, avoiding threats which, if they even happen, may never be as bad as we think they are. Then again, I am also very uneducated when it comes to legal process, so maybe I'm thinking about this entirely wrong. Or maybe I am just an immoral idiot.Going back to Sara. I thought Phil was on this forum, but I haven't seen him in a while. Would be interesting to hear his take on this. Same with Packman Talks, since that uses a lot of Packman sounds afaik. Not trying to condemn anything, although I acknowledge that it does look a bit shady from an outsider's perspective. But it's also an example of getting on a game's case which has existed for over a decade which previously had no trouble, and where the original devs are fairly distant now. So do we stick to their best interest and leave well enough alone, or do we take it down because it presses on our guilty conscience? What about Jim Kitchen, who no longer can make a case one way or another? Ugh... I have so many mixed feelings on this now... I just need to stop thinking for a bit.Edit: clarified stuff, fixed typos URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583793/#p583793 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
2020-10-27
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Site and forum feedback : musicalman via Audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. *sighs* agreeing with 194 here.I know the mods want to be fair and deal with any games which are guilty, not just new ones, not just ones reported by devs. No, we have to treat all of them fairly. The trouble is this isn't really a fair situation. Too many people have too many different ideas, and the whole thing is surrounded by grey area. I am confident I am not alone when I say "If you nuke one, what are you going to do with the 100 more brought to your attention?" some of those will be brought up in so-called bad faith, but many others will not. The potential is there to be overwhelmled with requests, and at the absolute worst, nuking link to half the games in the database or the databse entries themselves. If the mods don't turn it into a witch hunt, the community will, and it'lll steamroll, to the point of becoming a legitimate problem.I am concerned about the VH soundpack situation. Sure, some people overdramatized it when the VH soundpack was cracked down on, but if that, a relatively clear-cut case, generated the reaction it did, and even an apology from the mods! Then I have trouble trusting other games to be handled more gracefully. Look, I know we're all learning here, but we've been spending a lot of time hashing this out and I don't feel like it's actually doing us good. I really hope I am wrong though and that something good comes out of this.I know some people won't like this, but I feel like the best way to proceed is to only do something if pressed to do so by a creator, or someone who represents a creator. I know we're trying to avoid legal hot water here, but has there been a case where one illegal group of stolen assets resulted in a complete takedown of a sight and an all-out law suit? We're not hosting roms, we're not hosting pirated content, we're not hosting shady torrents. To my knowledge, any of the big stuff we could get sued for is not here. We're not even hosting games or directly endorsing stolen assets. We're just promoting them as games and distributing links to said games, and we can't take responsibility for what devs do, as we're not in any way directing or biasing them to do one thing or another. If they choose to steal assets, we don't endorse that, but we can't fairly keep track of all assets in all games either, that's not our jobs. We can take games off the site if asked, but in my opinion at least, and it's probably a stupid and generally unfavored one, but a simple take-down is all we should have to do.I know this is an old sticking point, but I legitimately need clarification for why this has to be the way the ball rolls, since right now I feel like we're coming off as a bit paranoid, avoiding threats which, if they even happen, may never be as bad as we think they are. Then again, I am also very uneducated when it comes to legal process, so maybe I'm thinking about this entirely wrong.Going back to Sara. I thought Phil was on this forum, but I haven't seen him in a while. Would be interesting to hear his take on this. Same with Packman Talks, since that uses a lot of Packman sounds afaik. Not trying to condemn anything, but these are valid points. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583793/#p583793 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. @Jeffb: And no, this is *not* a moderation post.Again. Concept clone. Manamon did not lift any specific assets from Pokemon, including but not limited to: specific character/creature names, locations, sounds, etc. Assets, trade-names, and specific game elements are copyrightable. Concepts, however, are not. It's as simple as that.Your efforts in bringing forth an example of a claim against a game with insufficient evidence, one which wouldn't be pursued further for that matter, are very much appreciated.Crazy Party, the VH soundpack, you name it: those lifted specific assets, and in the case of VH, the Cosmic Rage developers came forth and confirmed that these assets were lifted without permission. Those are clear-cut cases. Manamon did not lift any assets from the Pokemon series. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583719/#p583719 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
2020-10-26
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Site and forum feedback : Mayana via Audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. I would just like to point out that Pokemon-like is such a common theme that there's literally a trope for it. Temtem and a couple animes have been mentioned, but there's clearly a lot more of these.https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MonBesides, Lord Lundin supposedly reported Manamon, and look what came of it. Even the developer himself was amused. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583731/#p583731 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
2020-10-26
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Site and forum feedback : defender via Audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. This endless gray area discussion is once again why I suggested only allowing directly affected parties to make official complaints, as to massively reduce the amount of second guessing necessary and the subsequent backlash which always inevitably follows just behind the decision.So I would strongly suggest that one of the proposals includes that as a component at least... URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583730/#p583730 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
2020-10-26
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Site and forum feedback : camlorn via Audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. Manamon isn't a gray area. Manamon is fine. I have no interest in playing it and don't understand the Pokemon craze in the slightest, but I don't know why people keep turning these discussions into "you can't copy ideas for your plot". Copying ideas falls under patents, not copyright, which is an entirely different ball game that this community can't deal with anyway, being as even hugely successful companies can trivially violate them without knowing.If it specifically went out of its way to be Pokemon events but we swapped all the names, that's different. But I've never seen that claim made. I can think of at least 2 sighted videogames, at least one anime, and at least 2 book series that use the "I capture/make deals with monsters for power" idea. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583720/#p583720 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. @Jeffb: And no, this is *not* a moderation post.Again. Concept clone. Manamon did not lift any specific assets from Pokemon, including but not limited to: specific character/creature names, locations, sounds, etc. Assets, trade-names, and specific game elements are copyrightable. Concepts, however, are not. It's as sipmle as that.Your efforts in bringing forth an example of a claim against a game with insufficient evidence, one which wouldn't be pursued further for that matter, are very much appreciated.Crazy Party, the VH soundpack, you name it: those lifted specific assets, and in the case of VH, the Cosmic Rage developers came forth and confirmed that these assets were lifted without permission. Those are clear-cut cases. Manamon did not lift any assets from the Pokemon series. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583719/#p583719 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. @Jeffb: Again. Concept clone. Manamon did not lift any specific assets from Pokemon, including but not limited to: specific character/creature names, locations, sounds, etc. Assets, trade-names, and specific game elements are copyrightable. Concepts, however, are not. It's as sipmle as that.Your efforts in bringing forth an example of a claim against a game with insufficient evidence, one which wouldn't be pursued further for that matter, are very much appreciated.Crazy Party, the VH soundpack, you name it: those lifted specific assets, and in the case of VH, the Cosmic Rage developers came forth and confirmed that these assets were lifted without permission. Those are clear-cut cases. Manamon did not lift any assets from the Pokemon series. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583719/#p583719 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. @Jeffb: Again. Concept clone. Manamon did not lift any specific assets from Pokemon, including but not limited to: specific character/creature names, locations, sounds, etc. Assets, trade-names, and specific game elements are copyrightable. Concepts, however, are not. It's as sipmle as that.Your efforts in bringing forth an example of a claim against a game with insufficient evidence, one which wouldn't be pursued further for that matter, are very much appreciated.Crazy Party, the VH soundpack, you name it: those lifted specific assets, and in the case of VH, the Cosmic Rage developers came forth and confirmed that these assets were lifted without permissions. Those are clear-cut cases. Manamon did not lift any assets from the Pokemon series. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583719/#p583719 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. @Jeffb: Again. Concept clone. Manamon did not lift any specific assets from Pokemon, including but not limited to: specific character/creature names, locations, sounds, etc. Concepts are not copyrightable. And that is that. Your efforts in bringing forth an example of a claim against a game with insufficient evidence, one which wouldn't be pursued further for that matter, is very much appreciated.Crazy Party, the VH soundpack, you name it: those lifted specific assets, and in the case of VH, the Cosmic Rage developers came forth and confirmed that these assets were lifted without permissions. Those are clear-cut cases. Manamon did not lift any assets from the Pokemon series. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583719/#p583719 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. @Jeffb: Still holding onto that 2016 view I see?Again. Concept clone. Manamon did not lift any specific assets from Pokemon, including but not limited to: specific character/creature names, locations, sounds, etc. Concepts are not copyrightable. And that is that. Your efforts in bringing forth an example of a claim against a game with insufficient evidence, one which wouldn't be pursued further for that matter, is very much appreciated.Crazy Party, the VH soundpack, you name it: those lifted specific assets, and in the case of VH, the Cosmic Rage developers came forth and confirmed that these assets were lifted without permissions. Those are clear-cut cases. Manamon did not lift any assets from the Pokemon series. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583719/#p583719 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. And I feel that Manamon is more of a direct rip off of Pokemon which turns it into a gray area as you said. So that one slides under the table? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583717/#p583717 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. No. In the case of Sarah, it's the fact that you're straight-up using someone else's intellectual property (seriously, freaking Hogwarts Castle in detail) in order to help you turn a profit. I'm actually surprised this one has lasted as long as it has. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583707/#p583707 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
2020-10-26
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Site and forum feedback : queenslight via Audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. @188Same goes for all PCS Games really, and GMA Games too, since they are like brothers in how they work together.Yes, Phil and David gave credit to the music used in said games but, that won't be enough to cover their bases anymore it seems. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583704/#p583704 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. First of all, there will be no nasty surprises from the staff team. I trust most of you can agree that we've been pretty transparent about this whole thing. Yes, we mishandled the Vast Horizon thing, if only because it looked like we were playing favourites with something we really haven't enforced elsewhere yet. We acknowledged this and have since been quite clear both with regard to our plans and intentions, and with regard to our willingness to incorporate player feedback.Concept clones - that is, a game or project that is similar in its execution to something else - get into trouble only if they're borrowing very directly from their source. Manamon has a lot in common with pokemon, but as I've pointed out before, if Temtem can get away with it and be mainstream, Manamon isn't going to have any problems. Crazy Party being a sort of Mario Party+Pokemon hybrid...again, concept clones, but that's not the end of the world, although the card-battle aspect really does have quite a lot of pokemon stuff, right down to types and dozens of move names. I'm not sure if that alone would cause legal trouble - I suspect not - but it's a little gray.The issue we're discussing here is the unauthorized use of assets, sounds in particular.So I haven't seen any evidence to suggest that a straight-up vote is a good idea, but I think that users being able to submit feedback about our proposed plan before that plan is enforced is a happy middle ground. This doesn't mean that if twelve of you get really loud and pushy, we'll just scrap it, but it does mean that if something is structurally wrong, or if there's a loophole we haven't found, we'll patch it. I think this is a compromise. Since responsibility rests with us, the actual ability to make that decision should probably rest with us as well. But since this ruling will impact some of you, you have a right to have a meaningful say in how it's set up.On a side-note: Sarah is one of those games I've wanted to play for just about forever. I feel like I bought the game way way back in like 2012 or something, never got a key and then forgot to follow through on it. I'm not even sure if it works anymore. But that game, as an example, definitely falls into bad territory. It's using a lot of things that belong to JK Rowling and actually making money off them. And I mean, at this point I'm not JK Rowling's biggest fan - she's pretty much lost all of my respect - but that doesn't justify using the things she created to make yourself a profit. Unless, of course, this game actually got the go-ahead in an official capacity, the same way some of G. Norman Lippert's fanfiction has? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583703/#p583703 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. I standby post #155. I want to know though where's the line? Will clearly game rip offs like Manamon and Sarah and The Castle of Wizardry still be allowed? I understand why those games were made because they were games we all wanted to play but couldn't because of the large price it would cost to get the copyright. How much change of something is enough to have it allowed? If Crazy Party changed all it's sounds and had them pitched and sound different enough would that be okay? I'm sure you see where I'm going with this it's such a grey area all of it. Where do we drawl the line with this so there's no nasty surprises from the admin/mod team, the law, and so on. Can this even be done? Or am I just making mountains out of molehills? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583698/#p583698 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. Unfortunately, applying the rule only to future titles kind of defeats the purpose. It means that past titles with copyright issues could still very well get us in trouble. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583677/#p583677 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
2020-10-26
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Site and forum feedback : defender via Audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. I see the issues with the vote idea, but the mods would be making the proposals, and as I'm not suggesting that one of the proposals be (get rid of all anti piracy rules) I don't think it's as bad as people believe.Also, maybe straw poll isn't the best option, I only said it because I figured punBB is easier to mess with than what ever straw poll is using, but restricting it to registered users I think will help cut down on the knee jerk votes.Ultimately what I really want is to avoid a repeat of what happened last time, where certain mods assumed that many user's arguments were (to use one of Jayde's favorite phrases) made in bad faith, and personal moral bias entered into things too much.Evidence was largely ignored, and instead of properly tallying the community response, the thread (allot like this one) devolved into several unrelated aspects of the issue.And yes, I do think big issues like this should be voted on when possible, as long as the proposals aren't (let everything go to hell) and (do what you know is right citizen).As for making this only apply to titles after the rule goes into affect, that's sloppy but fair, and not without precedent on other sites. It could solve many of the user's concerns in one stroke. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583631/#p583631 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
2020-10-26
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Site and forum feedback : defender via Audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. I see the issues with the vote idea, but the mods would be making the proposals, and as I'm not suggesting that one of the proposals be (get rid of all anti piracy rules) I don't think it's as bad as people believe.Also, maybe straw poll isn't the best option, I only said it because I figured punBB is easier to mess with than what ever straw poll is using, but restricting it to registered users I think will help cut down on the knee jerk votes.Ultimately what I really want is to avoid a repeat of what happened last time, where certain mods assumed that many user's arguments were (to use one of Jayde's favorite phrases) made in bad faith, and personal moral bias entered into things too much.Evidence was largely ignored, and instead of properly tallying the community response, the thread (allot like this one) devolved into several unrelated aspects of the issue.And yes, I do think big issues like this should be voted on when possible, as long as the proposals aren't (let everything go to hell) and (do what you know is right citizen). URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583631/#p583631 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
2020-10-26
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Site and forum feedback : camlorn via Audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. Actually, that makes my point. Whois likes to point at the thing being resold, not the thing that they're buying the domain through. Click that link and the very first thing you see is them advertising to people who might want to become resellers.We can't find out anything we want without outright hacking or getting cooperation from whoever has the keys to the kingdom. End of story. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583602/#p583602 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
2020-10-26
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Site and forum feedback : queenslight via Audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. !182Agreed. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583587/#p583587 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. @181, namecheap was just an example. Metaregistrar is probably similar. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583578/#p583578 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
2020-10-26
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Site and forum feedback : queenslight via Audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. @180Well, they aren't using Name Cheap...https://www.metaregistrar.com/, is what they're using. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583569/#p583569 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
2020-10-26
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Site and forum feedback : camlorn via Audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. @177Whois is useless for finding actual info about domains. That doesn't tell anyone anything anyone who wants to do something needs to know. It's a long explanation but the short version is that you go through something like namecheap, which often resells a bigger offering, and then you also get whois guard, which hides all your real information. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583558/#p583558 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. @178, not necessarily. They've probably got an automatic renewal setup going, so we'll see nothing from them. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583556/#p583556 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. queenslight wrote:Well, since folks wanted the info...https://www.whois.com/whois/audiogames.netAnd the highlights:Domain:audiogames.netRegistrar:Metaregistrar BVRegistered On:2002-11-12Expires On:2020-11-12Updated On:2019-11-13Status:okName Servers:elle.ns.cloudflare.comowen.ns.cloudflare.comRegistrant ContactCountry:NLTheir main site is https://creativehero.es/Not much else to share I guess...So we should see some activity from the webmasters when the domaine expires in 3 weeks time at least. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583555/#p583555 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
2020-10-26
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Site and forum feedback : queenslight via Audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. Well, since folks wanted the info...https://www.whois.com/whois/audiogames.netAnd the highlights:Domain:audiogames.netRegistrar:Metaregistrar BVRegistered On:2002-11-12Expires On:2020-11-12Updated On:2019-11-13Status:okName Servers:elle.ns.cloudflare.comowen.ns.cloudflare.comRegistrant ContactCountry:NLTheir main site is https://creativehero.es/Not much else to share I guess... URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583545/#p583545 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
2020-10-26
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Site and forum feedback : queenslight via Audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. Well, since folks wanted the info...https://www.whois.com/whois/audiogames.netAnd the highlights:Domain:audiogames.netRegistrar:Metaregistrar BVRegistered On:2002-11-12Expires On:2020-11-12Updated On:2019-11-13Status:okName Servers:elle.ns.cloudflare.comowen.ns.cloudflare.comRegistrant ContactCountry:NLTheir main site is https://creativehero.es/N URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583545/#p583545 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
2020-10-26
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Site and forum feedback : camlorn via Audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. I mean, has anyone tried to get some sort of access to pull a backup? If someone can pull a backup of the server, there's a number of us who could run it. Audiogames.net itself should cost a grand total of $12 to $15 a month to run. maybe a little bit more for an e-mail setup like Gsuite.actually I wonder if we're vulnerable to an sql injection or something, all you really have to do is exfiltrate the data somehow and you can keep the forum. The database might be a lost cause though, it seems custom.I kinda feel like going to the webmasters and being like "We want to entirely take this off your hands, can you please transfer the domain name and give us a tar of the server and then you will never again hear from us" might get a response. But maybe someone has tried that.In either case, just waiting on a DMCA notice or not doesn't matter though. No one wants us to become the site that always gets DMCA requests. That's a great way to start having no end of trouble. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583541/#p583541 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. To be clear, I'm not happy about the webmasters being largely absent. However, I don't think it's salient right this second.We're here because they're not. If they do come back, then they can decide what to do about this. If they don't come back - and evidence suggests that they're going to keep on doing what they've done - then it falls to us, unless we want to migrate the entire thing off this base and onto another. But even that wouldn't be ideal, if only since we can't take everything with us when we go.As far as you not liking the "snitch mentality", Ironcross, you may or may not believe this, but we're counting on people like you. This is to say that we know that not everyone is going to rat stuff out. In fact, we're pretty confident that we won't be flooded with good-faith requests to investigate games. We want to deal with the obvious culprits and set a standard by which future games can be challenged, but only at need. We're also trying to set the bar higher to encourage devs to be better about sounds in general. If we thought the whole community would just tattle-tale on everyone, this would very quickly explode. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583539/#p583539 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. @173, problem is that, to my knowledge, we have no way of getting in touch with the webmasters. And we can't just build a new sight as you suggested earlier because the amount of work to do that would be infeasible. We additionally don't have access to the DNS records, either, so we have no control over the domain.As for billing and hosting, the webmasters might've paid in advance (maybe 20-30 years or something like that). I have no idea though, so this is pure conjecture. It could also be hosted on a privately-operated server, though I have no way of verifying that. I can tell you who "owned" the server before they switched to cloudflare, but I've no idea who "owns" the server that the sight runs on now. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583538/#p583538 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. ironcross32 wrote:+1 @170.My feelings on the matter have calmed significantly owing to the fact they've come out and said they're not going to be blasting everything in sight. And I see why it doesn't make sense to put every big decision to a vote. Order has to be established and maintained.As Lem pointed out though, the forum won't be the dumping grounds for the developers' ire if it disclaims responsibility for the links hosted. The developers will.I don't like this snitch mentality that some of the staff and users want from us. I refuse to participate in a Big Brother program where I'm made a hero for tattle tailing. If I knew that someone had an illegal knife - too long a blade or whatever - I wouldn't say a word if I encountered a cop. Now, if someone brandished that knife at someone, or attacked someone, then I would. That's how I treat reporting of posts on here. If I see someone intimating something, and it's a read between the lines sort of thing that would break the rules, I won't say anything. But if someone's blatant about it, then I will.It's like those ass hole neighbors you come across sometimes. You're normally a quiet person, but you have some music on, and if you go one minute over city ordinances for quiet hours, they'll call the cops rather than talk to you about it. Similarly, if they don't like you, they look for every reason to try to jam you up. People like that are shit monkeys, and I don't like the attitude, or the mentality behind them.It's this really. I have no problem with things being taken down at the copyright owners request. If they've got a problem with something and they're obviously in the right, then anyone refusing to take it down doesn't have a leg to stand on legally. This would be grand if we had webmasters who showed the slightest bit of interest and there was somewhere for takedown requests to go, but unfortunately we don't and the admins are left in this ridiculous position. If I was an admin in that position I wouldn't be angry at the people posting this sort of content, I'd be absolutely fuming at the webmasters though. They need to either start showing an interest again or change the contact email address to something that the active admins can access. That way there's no need for draconian rules like this as copyright holders can just use the remedy they've been using for decades now. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583530/#p583530 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
2020-10-26
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Site and forum feedback : ironcross32 via Audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. +1 @170.My feelings on the matter have calmed significantly owing to the fact they've come out and said they're not going to be blasting everything in sight. And I see why it doesn't make sense to put every big decision to a vote. Order has to be established and maintained.As Lem pointed out though, the forum won't be the dumping grounds for the developers' ire if it disclaims responsibility for the links hosted. The developers will.I don't like this snitch mentality that some of the staff and users want from us. I refuse to participate in a Big Brother program where I'm made a hero for tattle tailing. If I knew that someone had an illegal knife - too long a blade or whatever - I wouldn't say a word if I encountered a cop. Now, if someone brandished that knife at someone, or attacked someone, then I would. That's how I treat reporting of posts on here. If I see someone intimating something, and it's a read between the lines sort of thing that would break the rules, I won't say anything. But if someone's blatant about it, then I will.It's like those ass hole neighbors you come across sometimes. You're normally a quiet person, but you have some music on, and if you go one minute over city ordinances for quiet hours, they'll call the cops rather than talk to you about it. Similarly, if they don't like you, they look for every reason to try to jam you up. People like that are shit monkeys, and I don't like the attitude, or the mentality behind them. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583526/#p583526 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. Echoing what Carter said, and amplifying it here.Our system, if we go forward with it, is going to be based on the fact that if someone asks for a particular dev or project to be investigated, the onus is on that person to present strong evidence of guilt before we proceed on anything. It is not up to a person to just sort of make an accusation, and then up to the dev to provide receipts or tags or whatever else it is they need to do in order to demonstrate their innocence.I'll outline what I mean below by giving a completely fictitious sample for both sides.Bad exampleJoebob's game, Splatface, is full of copyrighted assets. I know it because I've heard his death sound in Race to the Finish when you crash your car, and because I'm pretty sure the pie-throwing sound is ripped out of generic sound library. If other devs have to pay for this library, why doesn't Joebob have to do it? I'm asking that you investigate Joebob's game Splatface because it's stealing sounds.Likely reaction: Whoever launched this will probably get at least one warning. For one thing, there is no hard proof. For another thing, the claims are that two sounds are pirated; even if it's true, that's pretty small potatoes. As a third point, the proof provided is subjective. We are absolutely -NOT going to go to Joebob and say "Randomuser said you stole this sound, that sound and the other sound. Could you please verify? You have one week, or we're removing support for your game". In practice, it will actually be fairly difficult to mount a successful claim because it will require the one doing it to provide enough evidence that we're compelled to follow through on it.Good exampleJoebob's game, Splatface, contains at least two dozen copyrighted assets. Examining the metadata fortwenty-eight sounds found within the game's sound directory, and comparing them to Jimbob's Race to the Finish, yields identical results. Jimbob's game is known to have contained proprietary assets made in house and with community involvement, since he was soliciting help on the forum, which he received here (forum link to the "help wanted" thread in question). When asked about it, Jimbob said publicly that these sounds he created, and received help creating, were his property, and not for sale, and not to be used (post link in the Race to the Finish thread). As such, there is compelling evidence that Joebob used Jimbob's proprietary assets in express opposition to Jimbob's own wishes. Please investigate.Likely reaction: The first thing we're going to do here is to analyze the claims made. It looks more credible, but that doesn't mean that it is. We've got a couple of members of the team who are good with sound design and seem to know the field, so it should not be difficult at all to determine the truthfulness of the claim. If it is found truthful, then Joebob will be asked to provide proof that he either 1. owns the assets in question or 2. has legal permission to use them, either because he purchased a license or because Jimbob and Joebob have some sort of pre-existing arrangement. Jimbob will be contacted at this time as well, as a precaution, in order to fact-check. In this way, we should quickly be able to assess the validity of Joebob's game. If he is guilty as charged, so to speak, we'll remove any links to his game and issue him a warning for illegal use of copyrighted assets (technically under rule 3). If he is not guilty, or if the proof is inconclusive, we will either close the investigation in the former case, or table it in the latter. we can always re-open it if new evidence comes to light.I wouldn't necessarily mind leaving database entries in while removing the actual download links to certain projects, BTW. That way players still know the game exists and it's still got an entry, but they just can't grab a link straight from us. If they know the developer and that makes them go off-site to get the game, that's out of our control and we're fine with it. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583522/#p583522 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. The underlying point I made has not been addressed. The problem here isn't even that some games have copyrighted sounds; in fact that's fine...you get a takedown request, you investigate, you take down. That's how these things work.The problem is that we've got two webmasters who are the first point of contact for these requests who for good reason or bad are asleep at the wheel. If the official contact info for the site is one of them, for all the admins know there are already 18 outstanding dmca takedown requests in their inboxes and they've not bothered to take action. A very important community resource like this cannot continue with two awol webmasters. Next time one of them appears, someone needs to have a serious word with them about changing ownership or moving the site someplace else, because otherwise something (unanswered takedown request, web host going to shit, missed payment etc) is going to happen and we'll lose it all. This is not the first time an issue caused directly by webmasters who have gone away has come up here, we saw it with the pirated content discussion and we saw it with the stolen code discussion. It's not going to stop and quick fixes like this are not going to fix the underlying issue. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583520/#p583520 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
2020-10-26
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Site and forum feedback : cartertemm via Audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. I'd just like to clarify something.Liam wrote:Agreed.And that's one major reason why I don't plan on releasing anything else here. I really do see a day where devs are going to have to justify every asset they use. I'm not happy with it, and I refuse to support it from a development standpoint.This is baseless presumption. Nothing you're suggesting here aligns with our stance. If you want to forgo releasing projects here that's cool, someone will probably post them for you anyway but it's your right regardless.Nevertheless, as a dev myself, I realize the fruitlessness (ntm impracticality) in picking every project here apart.As an admin, I struggle to stay on top of everything that goes on as it stands. You're somehow suggesting we'd all find that extra time and so much more, to a point where it would be even remotely practical to investigate everything under the sun? Let alone those that are purported to be using even one or two unauthorized assets? That's just... not feasible. At best we get a cogent report that can easily be refuted. At worst we follow the lead and come up empty handed, potentially reaching out to you for clarification. If you failed to comment for some reason... It'd just be a gray area and nothing would get taken down, innocent until proven guilty and all. Our interest falls far short of making you prove ownership of your libraries.As a user, I see it as being simply unnecessary. We're after the big guys like CP, rhythm rage and unauthorized beatstar packs. Those that are likely, where even negligible likelyhood exists, to get us in hot water or set a bad precedent.The sticky topic in dev room eliminates the I can't find free sounds and I keep searching freesound but keep finding low quality content problems in one shot. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583504/#p583504 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
2020-10-26
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Site and forum feedback : cartertemm via Audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. I'd just like to clarify something.Liam wrote:Agreed.And that's one major reason why I don't plan on releasing anything else here. I really do see a day where devs are going to have to justify every asset they use. I'm not happy with it, and I refuse to support it from a development standpoint.This is baseless presumption. Nothing you're suggesting here aligns with our stance. If you want to forgo releasing projects here that's cool, someone will probably post them for you anyway but it's your right regardless.Nevertheless, as a dev myself, I realize the fruitlessness (ntm impracticality) in picking every project here apart.As an admin, I struggle to stay on top of everything that goes on as it stands. You're somehow suggesting we'd all find that extra time and so much more, to a point where it would be even remotely practical to investigate everything under the sun? Let alone those that are purported to be using even one or two unauthorized assets? That's just... not feasible. At best we get a cogent report that can easily be refuted. At worst we follow the lead and come up empty handed, potentially reaching out to you for clarification. If you failed to comment for some reason... It'd just be a gray area and nothing would get taken down, innocent until proven guilty and all. Our interest falls far short of making you prove ownership of your libraries.As a user, I see it as being quite frankly unnecessary. We're after the big guys like CP, rhythm rage and unauthorized beatstar packs. Those that are likely, where even negligible likelyhood exists, to get us in hot water or set a bad precedent.The sticky topic in dev room eliminates the I can't find free sounds and I keep searching freesound but keep finding low quality content problems in one shot. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583504/#p583504 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. You know what? I really like Liam's point in 166. I'm going to publicly come out and say, could this also be an option, I'm saying this as a fellow db editor. This option came in and out of my mind a few times, and I still like the idea. Yes, I've only written I think two entries in my time. But this way we don't lose our history. I also understand Camlorn's point too. This is what I mean, it feels like a really tricky situation, and it's taken me a long time to come round to the idea of change.A similar idea I had is, could we remove links from db but keep game descriptions and put something at the top, rather than nuking a game from the db entirely. Preserving our history but removing the link on the db as well.So for Jim Kitchin, we keep as is. For cp, we keep the description, but we edit the homepage and download link out and we explain why in the description. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583497/#p583497 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. You know what? I really like Liam's point in 166. I'm going to publicly come out and say, could this also be an option, I'm saying this as a fellow db editor. This option came in and out of my mind a few times, and I still like the idea. Yes, I've only written I think two entries in my time. But this way we don't lose our history. I also understand Camlorn's point too. This is what I mean, it feels like a really tricky situation, and it's taken me a long time to come round to the idea of change.A similar idea I had is, could we remove links from db but keep game descriptions and put something at the top, rather than nuking a game from the db entirely. Preserving our history but removing the link on the db as well. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583497/#p583497 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. You know what? I really like Liam's point in 166. I'm going to publicly come out and say, could this also be an option, I'm saying this as a fellow db editor. This option came in and out of my mind a few times, and I still like the idea. Yes, I've only written I think two entries in my time. But this way we don't lose our history. I also understand Camlorn's point too. This is what I mean, it feels like a really tricky situation, and it's taken me a long time to come round to the idea of change. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583497/#p583497 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. You know what? I really like Liam's point in 166. I'm going to publicly come out and say, could this also be an option, I'm saying this as a fellow db editor. This option came in and out of my mind a few times, and I still like the idea. Yes, I've only written I think two entries in my time. But this way we don't lose our history. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583497/#p583497 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
2020-10-26
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Site and forum feedback : camlorn via Audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. @166Fair doesn't exactly factor in. I don't honestly care if old entries are redacted or not but at the end of the day it's about the law, not about what people here might think. I honestly don't know how there haven't been a flood of DMCA requests. Not to give trolls any ideas, but if I wanted to troll that's how I'd do it.Looking the other way on old stuff is probably at least passable except that there's probably something somewhere about how if you knowingly ignore piracy on your platform you can get in trouble for it. But I'm not a legal expert. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583492/#p583492 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. Would a fair compromise be to not edit existing entries, however hold future entries to higher standards?I'm all for preserving the past as well. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583489/#p583489 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
2020-10-26
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Site and forum feedback : an idiot via Audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. I am neither entirely for nor entirely against changes of this sort, but I will say this much. People in this community don’t like change. We are all stuck in the past. We're on a Website which is running rather outdated form software. Until recently bgt was seen as the go to for many beginners, despite its inherent flaws. Instead of looking for new sounds, we recycle old ones. Instead of looking for new ideas, we recycle old ones. But the past cannot be held on to for ever. Let it be preserved and remembered, not continued. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583485/#p583485 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
2020-10-26
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Site and forum feedback : an idiot via Audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. I am neither entirely for nor entirely against changes of this sort, but I will say this much. People in this community don’t like change. We are all stuck in the past. We're on a Website which is running rather outdated form software. Until recently bgt was seen as the go to for many beginners, despite its inherent flaws. Instead of looking for new sounds, we recycle old ones. Instead of looking for new ideas, we recycle old ones. But the past cannot be held on to for ever. let it be preserved and remembered, not continued. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583485/#p583485 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
2020-10-26
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Site and forum feedback : an idiot via Audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. I am neither entirely for nor entirely against changes of this sort, but I will say this much. People in this community don’t like change. We are all stuck in the past. We're on a website which is running on outdated stuff. Until recently bgt, a language created years ago was seen as the go to for many beginners, despite its many flaws. Instead of looking for new sounds, we recycle old ones. Instead of looking for new ideas, we recycle old ones. But the past cannot be held on to for ever. let it be preserved and remembered, not continued. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583485/#p583485 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
2020-10-26
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Site and forum feedback : camlorn via Audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. God. Probably not worth me chiming in at all, but this topic boils down to I'm pissed because the forum can't allow illegal activity. Come on guys. There's a billion sources of free sounds on the internet. Here's a revolutionary idea. We stop giving people who pirate a pass, and new games, like, do this new age thing called don't pirate assets. It's easy. You go to freesound.org instead of the final fantasy torrent, or you ask other community members for help making music.Voting on anything isn't going to end well. That doesn't work. Eventually it'll just turn into voters voting everyone who can do anything for real off the island and you'll be left with the loudest voice wins. Here's another revolutionary idea. Everyone who is mad realizes that online communities are benevolent dictatorships in practice no matter what you do. If you don't like the rules, go start a new one. But no one ever can, and the reason why is simple: audiogames.net mods aren't doing a bad enough job that anyone actually wants to leave for real. Otherwise an alternative could have taken off by now. I think audiogames.net mods are fine, but if everyone wants to keep screaming about how bad this is, then at least realize that if it was so bad as all that we'd have a reddit or something instead by now.It kind of sucks that a lot of popular games are effectively pirated in their entirety, but that only happens because apparently this community considers "don't steal" too high of a standard to hold teenagers to. Teenagers don't get an excuse for stealing because they're kids.Finally, let's say we all do voting on everything. How are we going to stop the people under, say, 15 from getting an equal vote? I'm going to get eviscerated by that age group for calling this out, but at the end of the day, if you say "ok voting" and then you let a bunch of teenagers going through puberty who are mad about whatever the latest thing they got in trouble for vote, this is going to go off the rails really fast.The mods are already doing everything they can in terms of not looking closely at pirated stuff that's already in the database to within the limits of what the law will let us get away with. You're not going to get more without being unable to stop someone reasonably intelligent who gets mad one day e-mailing a bunch of game publishers and getting us taken off the internet. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583479/#p583479 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
2020-10-26
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Site and forum feedback : queenslight via Audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. @162Yep? It's been awhile. Not extremely long ago, but it's been awhile. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583470/#p583470 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
2020-10-26
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Site and forum feedback : an idiot via Audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. SendermenRegistered: 2005-02-05Last post: 2019-09-26 5:46 am URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583467/#p583467 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
2020-10-26
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Site and forum feedback : an idiot via Audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. SendermenRegistered: 2005-02-05Last post: 2019-09-26-2019 URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583467/#p583467 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. So I have a couple of theoretical questions I need to ask, and have answered, before I feel comfortable with this.Bear in mind, first and foremost, that I'm generally pro-democracy. I just have some problems I'd like to see some answers for. These are good-faith questions, by the way. If you have solutions, I'm listening.First question: we've had well over a hundred and fifty posts in this thread alone, and many of them boil down to "fuck Nintendo, we need to be able to pirate sound assets" when you take off all the varnish and self-justification. I've heard every excuse from "almost everyone uses pirated assets" to "it's too difficult to enforce" to "Nintendo doesn't care". And now it's "let the people decide"? Look, I hate to break it to you, but the community has already made very clear that, if left unchecked, it's very likely going to go on doing what it's been doing. Isn't bringing this down to a vote done in bad faith, given that we know exactly how this community will vote?Second, who exactly bears responsibility if the community votes to leave things alone and not enforce this? It's not you folks, I'll tell ya that much. Ultimately it's Richard and Sander, first and foremost, but since we've basically become custodians of the site, it's going to fall on our heads. However unlikely you think a takedown or legal problems might be for this community, the chance of it happening is not zero. Wouldn't it be fair to say that a vote to leave the status quo in place is also a choice to essentially absent yourselves from responsibility while simultaneously asking us to keep ourselves at risk? And no, before you say that resignation is an option, it's ultimately not. Not for the whole team. Someone has got to be responsible, and in Richard and Sander's absence, whoever is left is going to bear at least some of that culpability. A vote to leave things as they are basically says "let us keep pirating assets if we wish, the way we have before. It's more important to maintain this than anything else. I'm okay with this practice as long as it's someone else who will pay for it if things go badly.".Third, a somewhat philosophical angle. Again, I am by no means anti-democracy, but I think a precedent like this is curious, in that it suggests that the community should be able to make any decision it wants if it shouts loudly enough, irrespective of the actual merit of that decision. In this instance, I can see good reasons why someone might want to put this issue down to a vote, but I can also see good reasons to let us rule on this, given that we're pretty much all in agreement that we need to not blow up the community in so doing. What happens the next time we have to crack down on something? Will a vocal subset of the user base demand it be taken to a vote, then stop us from acting even if the thing they're protesting makes no sense? Democracy makes sense for an awful lot of things, but not for absolutely everything. There are good reasons why common people don't vote on every law, why in many cases it's left up to folks in charge to do it in the fairest, least judgmental and biased way possible. The precedent you set by being able to force a community vote on this is that you may be able to force a community vote on everything, even stuff that is not in the community's best interest. Many of you as individuals have been well-intended, have done a lot to help this community, and are perfectly trustworthy. However, let's be real here. We have members who act in their own best interest, and would probably be willing to vote in their own best interest as well. One of the reasons we are a staff team is because, in a gradual process, people believed we were capable of removing our personal bias from the equation and would be able to act in the best interest of the community. Basically, it seems to me that demanding that this be a full vote, where the community has the final word, essentially says that you don't trust us to make the decision ourselves. I'm not sure if that's because it's a decision you don't like, or because it might cause headaches (most of which will fall to us, not you, by the way), or simply because you're happy to blame us but not happy to trust us, but whatever the situation is, it's kind of thorny. Again, if you have credible answers to these issues, I'm wide open. I might seem resistant, and I'll tell you right now that I'm not convinced, but I -can be convinced. I don't even fully disagree with the idea of a vote. I just think a lot of things have to be considered here, and I'm not sure if that's actually happening.Oh, one quick note:There was a post a bit ago listing a whole ton of projects which may or may not have misused copyrighted assets...but, unless those projects are actually brought directly to our attention, via the proper channels and with substantive proof, we will do nothing about them. Games like Crazy Party would be the
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. It's been a super long time. Both of them are working and raising families as far as I know now. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583458/#p583458 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
2020-10-26
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Site and forum feedback : queenslight via Audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. Hmmm...When was the last time they even posted on here?But yes, they do need to have a say. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583456/#p583456 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. I disagree with the straw pole idea as it would be very easy to spoof votes ETC.if the existing forum system tracks only allowing logged in users to vote then that is the best idea.I do however agree that this should be a user vote, and I really think that at the end of the day, the webmasters need to come out and make the decision since in some ways it is their work that will be tampered with. Look at the number of entries that were posted by Richard and Sander. They should have a say in what goes on. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583447/#p583447 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
2020-10-26
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Site and forum feedback : queenslight via Audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. I also agree with the Straw Poll idea.Would get people outside of this forum to vote because of it. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583443/#p583443 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
2020-10-26
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Site and forum feedback : defender via Audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. I think this should be a user vote as well. Let the mods put forward the proposals (in plane English!) with simple for and against arguments, but let the forum make the ultimate decision.Do it with a more secure system than the forum, like straw poll, and let everyone see the results.This isn't some small change to an existing rule, or action taken against an individual user or situation, this will effect the entire forum for the rest of it's existence. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583436/#p583436 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. Hi,I want to start by firstly saying that I don’t condone anyone stealing or using copyrighted material they don’t own the rights to, whether that be sounds, ideas, code or anything else. I understand the reason why the Mods have decided to create this new rule and respect the ethical stand point, as others have pointed out though I just don’t think the rule is manageable. I’ll try and avoid raising issues/concerns others have already mentioned, but below are a couple of hypothetical issues which I don’t think have been mentioned yet but that I think could arise from the new rule and impact the future of audio games development, then below that I’ll put forward a suggestion/idea, it’s a typical Lemm long post, so sorry in advance My first concern with the rule is the affect this rule potentially has on brand new developers just starting out, when they are making their first few test games to get used to coding it’s unlikely they would be able to afford to go out and buy sound libraries to make their little test games sound good, especially since said games are likely to be ‘free to play games’. So I think this rule has the potential to choke or slow the current steady flow of new aspiring developers learning to code and trying to make audio games, as without any sound libraries or cash to buy them a lot of new developers could be put off learning to code or at least to putting out their small test games they are making whilst they learn, which removes the very valuable experience to new developers of receiving player feedback on their games. My other point, following on slightly from the last point, even when making a big paid audio game title for the first time a lot of developers just don’t have the cash to go out and buy tons of awesome sound libraries or employ a sound designer to give their upcoming game the audio assets and music it needs to really show case their game, also remembering there isn’t huge amounts of money to be made from creating audio games anyway, or at least not when you compare the amount of hours put in to create a game (often years for a big game) compared with the financial outcome . My concern here is with this new rule in place that more and more developers will turn to kick starter or taking pre orders for games to acquire the capital to buy sounds for their games. Now don’t get me wrong I have nothing against either of these methods personally, but what happens when eventually a game promised as a Kickstarter or as a preorder doesn’t actually get built, you end up with gamers out of pocket and trust in developers and the community going downhill. In fact if it began happening frequently on kick starter that could generate a lot of bad publicity for the audio games community as a whole which is the last thing anyone wants. So before I come to my suggestion to the issue/new rule, I want to say that honestly I don’t think there is a right or a wrong answer to this situation, I see both sides of the argument and both have pros and potential cons. I think though this is a decision that is about more than just forum moderation, this decision affects the whole audio games community and has the potential (for good or bad to influence the future of the audio games community, since as others have mentioned currently this forum is the main point of resource for anything audio games related, so this rule directly affects developers building games, how easily those developers can promote their games through the forum and it affects how easily gamers can find links to new and old games if we start restricting what games the forum will and won’t allow links to. So, since this is such a divisive topic already, since as mentioned I think it affects the whole community both developers and gamers and could also potentially shape the future of audio games to some degree and how easily games can be found and played by gamers, rather than making this a decision made only by the moderators simply ask the community what they want, the forum has a polling system, use that and find out if the community wants this new rule or not. make it a peoples decision not the mods. I get it that if the webmasters had come down and enforced the rule we would just have to abide by it, but the mods have said they haven’t heard from the webmasters about this, so rather than assuming what the webmasters would want let the community decide. so my suggestion is : the mods put together their proposal for the new rule in full detail as to what they want to do, then run a pole on the site, see what the community wants and then roll with that decision. If more people vote in favour of the rule, then it’s a done deal and it’s what the community wanted and not just something the moderators wanted so people can’t then complain about it (or at least not as much hahaha), if more people don’t want the new rule then leave everything as it is. Again,
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
2020-10-26
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Site and forum feedback : queenslight via Audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. So, the key posts that sum up everything are:131144 through 145148 through 152What do the above posts all come down too?From time to time I'll still pop into the Off Topic Room. For game related stuff though? That place is Twitter. And anywhere else. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583420/#p583420 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
2020-10-26
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Site and forum feedback : queenslight via Audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. So, the key posts that sum up everything are:131144145148 through 152What do the above posts all come down too?From time to time I'll still pop into the Off Topic Room. For game related stuff though? That place is Twitter. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583420/#p583420 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. Are we seriously having this one again?The problem appears to be that the webmasters are inactive and wouldn't be able to respond to DMCA requests. This doesn't only create a problem in terms of copyright, it's a problem full stop. Honestly if they're as inactive as the admins claim then how are we still up? Someone must be paying the web hosting fees, responding if the site has issues etc; either we're on a very reliable hosting provider, they're not quite as inactive as it would appear or we've been incredibly lucky. The point I'm making is that we should really be looking at creating a new forum anyway, regardless of this issue. It simply isn't a good idea to have a community forum that people rely on for info on a particular subject be subject to webmasters nobody can get in contact with. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583409/#p583409 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
2020-10-26
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Site and forum feedback : speeder via Audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. Let's put this in perspective, shall we? and Before any mods come at me with the "We're not targeting all of these! Please Don't Kill us! We Can't Please Everyone!"PB games since I'm assuming phillip didn't have his license for libs back then maybe? acefire, VGStorm, Ah Damn it, Arric the Cleric, Alien Outback, Insert mud soundpack here, Angelgift, Aprone's titles, Audio quake, All Jim Kitchen, Battle zone, beatstar and rhythm rage, bloodshed, Bloodstorm, BK series, other Japanese and Chinese titles potentially, litetech games, Draconess since there's no proof the new owners have licenses, BSC though that's not really a problem anyway due to other copyright issues surrounding whether they're abandoned, GMA? PCS games? Mason, NS, Soundrts, Sam Tupy, Liam even? CP, Ghorth's games, Top Speed, NA soft, Entombed, Oriol, RS and Quentin for random assets, old obscure stuff like Mudsplat, The Blind eye, Old bgt examples, etc, AG Experimental games... That's a non-exhaustive list of potential games who's assets may or may not have been stolen. I don't have any proof either way as far as licensing or ownership goes, neither do the mods. While we can say with relative certainty that certain assets, such as music in AA and sounds and music in CP *were not legally used*, I can say with relative certainty that a lot of Sam Tupy's sounds, (Am not attacking Sam here by the way) were also not legally obtained, though some may have been later in his career. How I know this is that I used to have access to an FTP server containing at least 1.5 tb of sounds, from many different libs, and there's no way sam, at the time 15, would have had enough cashola to purchase Every... Single... One. I could keep ranting about you have no proof and yatta yatta yatta, but I'll just say the list above is at least half the database. again I know not everything's deliberately getting the boot, but let's think about This situation. A new user comes onto the forum and sees Crazy Party's topic, with, at the time of this writing, over 2400 posts. 2400 posts about a supposedly really cool game, but Nobody's posted a link, and the first post says Link Redacted. So then he goes and checks the DB and finds that, at the very least Link redacted, if not simply lack of entry for perhaps one of the more popular audiogames in the last 4 years! what will this new user think, when nobody's posting a link to the game he's asking for on supposedly the 1 stop shop for every audiogame made in the last 16 years? I'd be quite turned off of this community if I experienced that. Again, I know that moderation of a community this diverse in maturity, age levels, etc is a difficult and thankless task, for which no compensation is provided, but do you guys really want to cause the eventual decay of a community that's currently thriving? Maybe I'm overdramatising. maybe I'm just a member of an extremely vocal, sometimes unfortunately somewhat verbally violent minority. I don't know. but I'll just choose to let that list of titles and above scinario speak for itself... URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583396/#p583396 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. Putting aside whether or not the assets are legal for a moment, audiogames probably aren't the only things that make use of stock sounds. Sometimes sounds in an English dub of an anime (like Yu-Gi-Oh!) have sounds changed to more familiar ones. Sometimes it isn't obvious when you're focused on the story. I'm sure plenty of mainstream games use stock sounds as well. And really, that's what they're meant for. Reuse. It takes some of the pain out of sound design, and not everyone has the ability or inclination to design sounds from scratch. Would you rather pay once for libraries that can be used multiple times, or pay for the services of someone else multiple times?All that said, Sound Ideas does have designer toolkits. These are collections of various sounds that can be mixed and processed to make entirely new sounds. People who want to avoid stock sounds can invest in these and attempt to make something new for certain cases. Failing that, stock sounds can be mixed and manipulated as well. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583378/#p583378 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. Agreed.And that's one major reason why I don't plan on releasing anything else here. I really do see a day where devs are going to have to justify every asset they use. I'm not happy with it, and I refuse to support it from a development standpoint. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583361/#p583361 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
2020-10-25
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Site and forum feedback : Nocturnus via Audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. going to address this since I didn't clarify well enough. @Liam, that's precisely what I'm not suggesting, but which is one of those things that is getting under my skin and overlooked at present. It puts the burden entirely on you and other reputable, legit devs who do own this content, because others are misusing it. In short, there's nothing at all other than you presenting some sort of legal proof that you actually own the stuff, where once upon a time benefit of the doubt was the normal standard for our community. Apparently, as far as the mods are concerned that will not be the rule we play by anymore. Anyone can call out anything because it uses sounds from something that sounds far too familiar/have been used in some other project/stock sound designing because cheap/easy/convenient/whatever. My hope is that the solution is a lot simpler than it seems from where I'm standing, but because copyright is changing ever so often to include who should own what titles to this or that thing... I just don't see the end in sight, and any temporary fixes, no matter how I try to dress them, don't look pretty. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583345/#p583345 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
2020-10-25
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Site and forum feedback : Nocturnus via Audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. @Liam, that's precisely what I'm not suggesting, but which is one of those things that is getting under my skin and overlooked at present. It puts the burden entirely on you and other reputable, legit devs who do own this content, because others are misusing it. In short, there's nothing at all other than you presenting some sort of legal proof that you actually own the stuff, where once upon a time benefit of the doubt was the normal standard for our community. Apparently, as far as the mods are concerned that will not be the rule we play by anymore. Anyone can call out anything because it uses sounds from something that sounds far too familiar/have been used in some other project/stock sound designing because cheap/easy/convenient/whatever. My hope is that the solution is a lot simpler than it seems from where I'm standing, but because copyright is changing ever so often to include who should own what titles to this or that thing... I just don't see the end in sight, and any temporary fixes, no matter how I try to dress them, don't look pretty. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583345/#p583345 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. 144:Just for the record, I own licenses for the sound ideas libs I used. So does Philip. I wanted to clarify that since I kind of feel like you're suggesting that we didn't. Apologies if I'm misreading that, but it got my haggles up a bit. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583332/#p583332 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
2020-10-25
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Site and forum feedback : thetechguy via Audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. I agree with people who say to consult with copyright experts. Its really the best thing to do in this situation. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583325/#p583325 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
2020-10-25
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Site and forum feedback : musicalman via Audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. @defender I fully agree with you. Not sure if it's going to play out like that, though. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583319/#p583319 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
2020-10-25
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Site and forum feedback : defender via Audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. @musicalmanThis is why I was insisting that only the most affected party should be the one to make the official request for it to be taken down, in order to reduce the impact on the database especially with older games and to focus on what's actually most important in terms of harm.@queenslightI hope so, but it's been years and everyone who has tried failed, so I'm not banking on that being any different this time around...@EthinThe owner of the AG Archive is extra paranoid about copyright and dev permission, which I can sorta understand. So if ag.net removes them, they almost certainly will as well. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583317/#p583317 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
2020-10-25
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Site and forum feedback : Nocturnus via Audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. Guys, lets wait and see. Honestly, I think this thing went way out of hand on all sides, and there is a lot that's still not being considered, such as why someone should be given the benefit of a doubt versus someone else who might or has use the same sounds and so on. The fact is that it's no secret that almost every iconic audiogame of the past 20 years has used sounds from Hollywood Edge and sound ideas libraries or other notable names in the industry. This is why myself and others in this fieled have been trying to discourage the use of stock sound libraries for awhile now. Yes, the sounds are popular; yes, it makes it easy to allow people to distinguish what something is if you use a sound that you have already heard in Golden Eye, Perfect Dark, Body Harvest, Mortal Kombat, Final Fantasy, GTA, Quake, Doom, Turok, Super Smash Brothers, any DK title after Country, any title on an n64, playstation or later units... I'm sure you get the point. The idea here is that the issue is huge. The past 10 to 15 years in particular have given more people access to those and other huge production libs by use of torrenting and other p2p sharing applications, so its like letting the proverbial cat out of the cage it was in, finding out it was bigger than your average domestic house cat, much closer to a saber toothed tiger in size and trying to catch it again. The long and short of it is that this won't be an easy win win situation for everyone.But the problem truly is one of systematic neglect. Audiogamers have refused to pay for audiogames when good titles have been released, resorting to cracking them because of this, that or the other, placing developers in a bind. To break even, developers have taken shortcuts such as using iconic sounds rather than paying for something a little more out of the box... I can name everything from Super Liam and Judgement day, to Swamp, to q9, which all make use of the previously mentioned groups of libraries, which for your clarification are super pricy, even if all you want to do is give gamers familiarity. Some of these sounds are available for free use on websites like the ever perpetual partners in rhyme and people use them regularly in their youtube productions, podcasts, yada yada yada. Why? Because it's easy, cheap, quick and familiar! This, however, is the end result, and you're all seeing it play out!But enough really is enough, as the title says, and if you want a change, you're going to have to contribute to it. If you want a new face on audiogaming, you're going to have to put something into it to get something out of it! It needs to be give and take, not take and take, All this mudslinging and acting as if the mods are simply out to get you because "my favorite game/soundpack/link" is being removed from the database in an attempt to cover all of our butts... I'm sorry to say that in all reality even the mods know that it's far too little too late and that this load of nonsense which has persisted in this community because of self-enablism for far too long is going to come back and bite us somewhere along the way, and the most we can do now is what California is trying to do for its wildfires, or to put it into greater perspective, to do what we're all trying to do for the world we live in and its environment. Fossil fuels are dangerous; air polution is spreading. The globe is warming! Hurricane seasons are becoming more destructive as the years go by! Such things are going to take time to heal! The same is true here! Point me to the latest game with awesome sounds that aren't being borrowed from stock sound design toolkits/platforms and tel me that game truly made it big! How long ago was it! Is it still selling? Is it still as famous/popular today as it was when it was first produced/sold, or has it outrun its sehlflife?And if the latter is true, are the devs working on a new project? If not, why not? Did money run out? Was there some other contributor? No... Say what you will, but if there's one point I believe Smoke has gotten right in at least one of his articles it would be that this community has been hanging on to old and dead matterial for far too long, particularly as it pertains to sound ideas and the Hollywood edge catalogues. Clones are only part of the issue... I don't believe they would be as rampant if this sound matter hadn't gotten so out of hand. The only way to put a stop to this nonsense it to even be having this discussion, and when we all resort to nothing but kneejerk reactions about who's doing what for what reason and acting as if only one party or camp is going to be hurt by it, nobody wins! If we really want to win, we're going to have to accept that there even is a problem, and those involved with it are going to have to take responsibility for it! In short, my final word to this topic, as harsh as it's going to come across, is either own up or
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. @141, there's the audiogames archive as well. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583303/#p583303 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change.
2020-10-25
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Site and forum feedback : queenslight via Audiogames-reflector
Re: enough is enough, and it's time for a change. @141See post @131.Others will take up the challenge if AGNet won't. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/583267/#p583267 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
