Re: The Browse Mode/Browser Battle
Re: The "Browse Mode"/"Browser" Battle Neither does supernova actually. The Dolphin curser is used for everything. You can set it to detect browser elements, headings, buttons, edit areas etc, but all of these are internal settings that you can alter or turn off if you wish, indeed if I just want streight mouse navigation in the dolphin curser (as I do for say operating flash controls), I just hit ctrl 4 . Plus, unlike Jaws I believe Supernova doesnt alter the appearence or nature of what is on screen, or really that much of what it does, just how it detects stuff. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=194550#p194550 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: The Browse Mode/Browser Battle
Re: The "Browse Mode"/"Browser" Battle Neither does supernova actually. The Dolphin curser is used for everything. You can set it to detect browser elements, headings, buttons, edit areas etc, but all of these are internal settings that you can alter or turn off if you wish, indeed if I just want streight mouse navigation in the dolphin curser (as I do for say operating flash controls), I just hit ctrl 4 . Supernova doesnt alter the appearence or nature of what is on screen, or really that much of what it does, just how it detects stuff. I suppose this is similar in one respect to how Vo works, although supernova obviously has the virtual curser thing where as vo on Ios works with the finger instead. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=194550#p194550 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: The Browse Mode/Browser Battle
Re: The "Browse Mode"/"Browser" Battle Not really sure what to say here.Firstly, I believe theres a bit of confusion. The virtual buffer thing is more of an internal detail, not a presentational one. While it is true that it ends up often being presentational, its more about not being caught having to make queries to the browser for absolutely everything, and also being able to flatten a bit. Nothing about how the information is obtained is changed, at least if youre not Jaws, its just presented a bit differently.But heres the problem. Voiceover didnt have a virtual buffer, but tried to do the same thing. I believe it does now, but by all accounts Ive heard OS X 10.10 is horridly broken. They had quick keys for everything, and the only bit that was really missing from their implementation was the ability to arrow through the document. What happens without the Virtual buffer is the need to continually make queries to the browser. These are out-of-process, and consequently always slow. And its not just one, if you want context--if the browser is the only thing and the virtual buffer isnt caching, youve got to make more for every keystroke. The virtual buffer is just a very, very accurate cache that updates itself based off accessibility notifications as opposed to making a query whenever possible.turning this off is what Aria application role is for. The problem with that is that basically then you cant do anything. At least on windows. Its possible some browser somewhere works, but in both Jaws and NVDA, when its off, you get almost no context. Yeah, you can tab to the links. But youre going to miss everything else.The question seems to be asking about presentation but is really asking about an implementation detail--its like asking me if I get a lot out of using arrays versus linked l ists in some situations somewhere.its also worth noting that all the screen readers that dont have this are holding really tiny market shares. Voiceover on Mac is the highest of the minorities, and as I recall its something like 20% and may actually have one--we cant know. I think that the reason for not having this isnt about being better, its about not having the programmers to do it. Maintaining the virtual buffer is a very complicated programming task, and you need someone who really knows what theyre doing devoted solely to it for a very long time. It is also worth noting that I believe System Access to have a virtual buffer, that Ive not seriously heard someone talk about Thunder in something like 8 years, that ChromeVox has a ton of other problems besides this and is something like 4% on the WebAIM surveys, and that Dolphin/Hal is so obscure at this point that the only person I know who knows anything about it at all anywhere is Dark and Ive never seen a statistic related to it. I find it interesting that, subjective opinions aside, the major ones all have it. Not to mention that, more subjectively, every Mac person I know has a Windows VM because the virtual buffer and the speed it lends makes web browsing 10x better. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=194582#p194582 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: The Browse Mode/Browser Battle
Re: The "Browse Mode"/"Browser" Battle Not really sure what to say here.Firstly, I believe theres a bit of confusion. The virtual buffer thing is more of an internal detail, not a presentational one. While it is true that it ends up often being presentational, its more about not being caught having to make queries to the browser for absolutely everything, and also being able to flatten a bit. Nothing about how the information is obtained is changed, at least if youre not Jaws, its just presented a bit differently.But heres the problem. Voiceover didnt have a virtual buffer, but tried to do the same thing. I believe it does now, but by all accounts Ive heard OS X 10.10 is horridly broken. They had quick keys for everything, and the only bit that was really missing from their implementation was the ability to arrow through the document. What happens without the Virtual buffer is the need to continually make queries to the browser. These are out-of-process, and consequently always slow. And its not just one, if you want context--if the browser is the only thing and the virtual buffer isnt caching, youve got to make more for every keystroke. The virtual buffer is just a very, very accurate cache that updates itself based off accessibility notifications as opposed to making a query whenever possible.turning all the features this lets you do reasonably fast off is what Aria application role is for. The problem with that is that basically then you cant do anything. At least on windows. Its possible some browser somewhere works, but in both Jaws and NVDA, when its off, you get almost no context. Yeah, you can tab to the links. But youre going to miss everything else. And again, this isnt so much about the virtual buffer, its more about navigational modes.The question seems to be a sking about presentation but is really asking about an implementation detail--its like asking me if I get a lot out of using arrays versus linked lists in some situations somewhere.its also worth noting that all the screen readers that dont have this are holding really tiny market shares. Voiceover on Mac is the highest of the minorities, and as I recall its something like 20% and may actually have one--we cant know. I think that the reason for not having this isnt about being better, its about not having the programmers to do it. Maintaining the virtual buffer is a very complicated programming task, and you need someone who really knows what theyre doing devoted solely to it for a very long time. It is also worth noting that I believe System Access to have a virtual buffer, that Ive not seriously heard someone talk about Thunder in something like 8 years, that ChromeVox has a ton of othe r problems besides this and is something like 4% on the WebAIM surveys, and that Dolphin/Hal is so obscure at this point that the only person I know who knows anything about it at all anywhere is Dark and Ive never seen a statistic related to it. I find it interesting that, subjective opinions aside, the major ones all have it. Not to mention that, more subjectively, every Mac person I know has a Windows VM because the virtual buffer and the speed it lends makes web browsing 10x better. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=194582#p194582 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: The Browse Mode/Browser Battle
Re: The "Browse Mode"/"Browser" Battle One thing I will say Camlorn is Supernova is only counted as obscure in the states, in europe its a lot better known, (Ive never met an American who uses it)), so saying its so oobscure that only dark knows about it is a little off. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=194585#p194585 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: The Browse Mode/Browser Battle
2014-11-11
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Off-topic room : Trenton Goldshark via Audiogames-reflector
Re: The "Browse Mode"/"Browser" Battle As a side note, Dolphin does have an office in the state of New Jersey. Guide, unlike Supernova, is more widely known here in America than Supernova. That being said, Supernova is the only! screen reader that works with NFB Newsline on your PC, as well with NLS here in the states. So, it got something going for it! Ah, and Bookshare as well. Ge, I may need to update the title of this thread here... If Supernova had a free version like AISquareds got for Window-Eyes, Id certainly switch to it! Least ya got 30 day free trials of all Dolphin products.Hmm. US Quick Reference Guide Anyone?http://www.yourdolphin.com/manuals/001_ … RG_v14.docYou probably may not rmember the screen reader that came before Orca on Linux called Gnopernicus, which was able to use Firefox, without needing a virtual buffer. I was quite amazed when I heard it in action. Sadly, not sure if any of the audio of those recordings are online still... URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=194609#p194609 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: The Browse Mode/Browser Battle
Re: The "Browse Mode"/"Browser" Battle @dark:Youre the only person I know. I did not say there werent others. Id still say that WebAIM is pretty representative; here are their latest results. Note that HAL/Dolphin isnt listed, and that Other is only 4% for the primary. I think these results speak for themselves pretty much, though I dont have other results to add to them.@Trenton GoldsharkI do not follow what Hal has to do with Bookshare or NLS. I can read Bookshare fine on my PC with at least 2 different methods, and Im pretty darn sure that NLS can be done with anything as well. Ive not seen anything one way or another about NFB Newsline nor heard anyone mention them in literally years, but Id be frankly astonished if NFB didnt make sure it worked with jaws at least.I did also say you *can* access the web browser without a virtual buffer. But a gain, this is an internal detail of how it works, not something thats necessarily user-facing or even obvious.And Id not base anything off recordings. If Im doing recordings, I can set things up very nicely to be 100% ideal and make anything look amazing.To make this a meaningful discussion, you need to define virtual buffer more. I think you probably mean something else that happens to be really jaws specific.And in general:I have never once ever seen anyone seriously talk about HAL. Im not sure why anyone would jump ship to it. Maybe Im missing something; if someone wants to actually tell me what HAL does thats so impressive, Id be interested. Nevertheless, given the difficulties we already face, heading for things with less market share seems like folly. Mind you, this whole discussion will be moot in 3-5 years anyway--the days of third-party screen readers are ending, slowly bu t surely. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=194617#p194617 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: The Browse Mode/Browser Battle
2014-11-11
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Off-topic room : Trenton Goldshark via Audiogames-reflector
Re: The "Browse Mode"/"Browser" Battle Ah, The Dolphins Bookshelf feature. Heres info on how it works:http://www.yourdolphin.com/dolphin.asp?id=609I was wondering why chromevox works so well, without needing a virtual buffer. Thats why I enjoy it so much. As someone said somwhere, Chromevox feels like how Emacs works. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=194620#p194620 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: The Browse Mode/Browser Battle, 3rd-Party Screen Reader Thoughts
2014-11-11
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Off-topic room : Trenton Goldshark via Audiogames-reflector
Re: The "Browse Mode"/"Browser" Battle, 3rd-Party Screen Reader Thoughts Just updated the threads title to reflect the extended addition to the scenery. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=194621#p194621 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
