Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides @143Thing about iOS is that iOS actually manages to make accessibility mostly easy. The phones kind of force you to use native controls for efficiency, so often fixing it is just adding labels. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/561779/#p561779 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides I mean, sometimes throwing money at something doesn't matter. Look at AltStore. Well, I mean, the guy probably has a lot to do, but as it becomes more popular--they said that over one million people have downloaded it so far--I'd hope that accessibility would be higher on the list of stuff to get done, and the app wouldn't take much to be accessible, just make the download button a "loading" button when that happens, work on the "My Apps" sections, but it otherwise works. So I mean, developers have to *want* to make things accessible. Now, this one does, but my cynicism won't allow me to not imagine that it'll just be pushed to the bottom of the ToDo file and then in a few years "well I've not even done this thing and I've got Fortnite, Microsoft XCloud, Facebook Games, and many other apps on this very lucrative store of mine, so I'll just let some blind developer handle this. I mean, after all, I'm not an accessibility expert." Of course, he probably doesn't think like that, but there's cynicism for you. He has promised that he's not forgotten us, but... You know. It's open source. It's how open source is. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/561626/#p561626 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides @141FWIW the GPU-based GUI frameworks have lots of other problems. It's the popular thing to do now, but in the process they'll reinvent everything the OS has to offer and still end up with a subpar experience even for the sighted, since hey, now you need a GPU. Forget themes, for one thing, or any other integration with platform services. Then a lot of controls will work slightly differently--for example textboxes and sometimes window resizing--and the framework has to go out of the way to implement the platform specific behavior they opted out of.There's a trend of pixel-perfect perfection, not in the "do my controls overlap" sense but in the anal-retentive "We chose ocean blue at sunrise and buttons must be 5 pixels apart. These buttons are 6 pixels apart and this looks more like ocean blue at sunset, you're on probation" sense. At the end of the day the APIs all look the same as a user, unless you're dealing with something more interesting like React (which is working on Windows accessibility--I can't wait). But it's easy to throw out literally everything, write a GUI framework that sort of kind of mostly works how you'd expect on all the platforms but with just enough frustrations that you can even find sighted users complaining about this trend with OpenGL, and have your pixel perfect fun at the cost of everything else in a weekend. But since learning all the OSes is a rare skillset and playing with OpenGL isn't, well, here we are.But I get where you're coming from, I used to kind of think the same, surely these frameworks are all amazing and make writing a GUI not painful. Haha no. The only thing I've found that really succeeds at that is React native, and they're working on Windows accessibility and I can't wait. But in general this is just one of those places where the world is sort of slowly getting worse because of coordination problems. No one actually wins with this strategy. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/560284/#p560284 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides @140, yeah... and doing that with windows would be great but managing to then combine that with ATK (or some alternative framework for Linux... does one even exist?) would be a nightmare. Not to mention the testing of all thatI've wanted -- for ages now -- to make GUIs with immediate-mode systems (because those seem to be a lot more popular than desktop-based ones) but I always run into a problem: focus events. Imgui / Dear Imgui, for instance, has no "focus" event to my knowledge, making it really, really hard for me to keep track of what the user might be focusing with tab/shift-tab, and therefore making accessibility like what people are used to really hard. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/560279/#p560279 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
@134I disagree. Capitalism is kind of involved, but $5 for a year is massively below the going rate for programmers. When you can do a thing plus get stuff for it or you can do a thing and not get stuff for it, most people will opt to do the thing and get stuff for it, especially when getting the stuff means 2x or 3x what you'd otherwise be getting. Still kind of problematic, but doing accessibility even if you want to is kind of like pulling teeth.@136Frankly, most creative types make pocket change for their work and are lucky to be able to pay for an apartment with the income from their book/song/whatever, so yes, you probably would, if only because the people who are doing it now are usually doing it for non-monetary reasons.people don't usually realize that until they look into this stuff more closely. I did, and ironically one of the best ways to make money as a novelist is to do those "romances" that are actually porn with a stereotypical plot. That'll keep a roof over your head. People like Rowling or Tolkien who do good work and get famous for it and make tons of money are rare. Very, very rare. And behind every one of those are 100 people doing stuff just as good or better than you'll never ever hear of. As soon as you try to do art for the art, pretty universally you start fulfilling that starving artist stereotype. Or you do it around your dayjob.@137MSAA was done in the 90s before anyone knew what they were doing. IA2 was done because Mozilla needed nonstandard extensions on MSAA to work with browsers without literally having to do process injection to let a screen reader grab and reparse raw HTML source code. UIA is the most recent and actively developed effort from Microsoft.Ignore the others. Use UIA. At this point it's pretty mature. The reason there's not a simplifying SDK is that you can't actually simplify it further, for example if you're thinking why can't I just acc_makeButton("my button") or whatever, it's because whatever you decide to do in the simplifying library is either going to be different on all the platforms anyway, not do everything UI framework X needs exactly how X needs it to be done, or both. Plus then you have the entire headache that is something like a web browser where you can't load all the accessibility nodes into memory at once without taking down the machine, and on some platforms (i.e. Android) this actually has to be done by subclassing interfaces in Java and, if it's a C framework, using JNI.With your level of C++ knowledge, if you picked up some Windows API stuff you could be working with UIA relatively quickly. I've considered trying to use it to make an alternative to accessible_output2 as well as a thing for virtual menus that reads off properly and works with all the screen reader commands that'd work by overriding the SDL window callback, and I estimated doing that at about a weekend. The issue is that you've also got NSAccessibility and UIAccessibility from Apple, etc etc etc, have to test against all of them entirely by hand, and will have to modify the pre-existing framework that was written without accessibility in mind to be able to offer what the accessibility APIs need.
URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/560219/#p560219
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Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides @Dark Eagle, I'd hope so, it would take a generation or two but I think people would go back to doing things because they want to.Also people wouldn't be as lazy because they'd have to clean their own houses and cook their own food et cetra instead of having others do it for them. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/560213/#p560213 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides Can't you like skip all the cutscenes or something? I'm only asking this because I don't understand what kind of things trigger you when playing games.Also I think this kind of feedback is going to get you nowhere. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/560212/#p560212 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides @128, speaking of that, are there actually function listings and all of that for all the accessibility APIs on windows? I know of MSAA, IAccessible2, and UIA, but are there more? For instance I know that the MSAA docs are here and the UIA docs are (I think) here, while the IAccessible2 API reference is (strangely) over here. Is there a reason someone hasn't made a central SDK for all three of these and ATK to make accessibility easier to work with? Or am I missing knowledge? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/560210/#p560210 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides It might be off topic, but Jayed's post reminded me of a question about which I think a lot.If there were to be a society which doesn't value money as the current world does, what would happen to the creative professions?Like would we have more people who are willing to be writers, musicians, chess, or any other field in which people would enter just because they want to, not because of money? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/560208/#p560208 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides @jade, I completely agree with you.I volunteer when I can and enjoy it, I'm doing "work" for free but it doesn't bother me, yes I'd like to get payed for some things but that's only because this is the way the world is, if the world didn't run off of money, I think people would be a lot happier. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/560192/#p560192 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides This sort of thing makes me realize that capitalism is busted.Yeah yeah, I say that a lot, but hear me out.So this money has to be generated in order to fund a project. But does it really?Well, since we don't provide for people's basic needs, then yes it does. But if we did that, then any extra money you made by selling things, doing more than the minimum, goes to luxuries.It's like the analogy I made about needing a load of gravel. You actually have to pay for it, but everything exists in nature. If someone ostensibly had access to gravel, had time, and had a physical means of conveyance allowing them to bring it to you, then you could get it for free.My point here is that money is seen as an automatic. Everything under capitalism boils down to either "because money" or "but money", or in this case, "if money". But it's really time, expertise and innovation that are needed here, not straight cash. The problem is that you can't induce someone to donate any of those things for free under the current climate, and I think that's a crying shame. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/560183/#p560183 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides @131Someone needs to start something. You can't donate for accessibility directly without devs willing to work on it.I'm also not saying no one donates to stuff. I'm saying that blind people as a whole don't donate to stuff. It's good that you donate, but you're a drop in a very large bucket, and we can only get anywhere if the bucket is full. The money that the big blindness orgs have doesn't come from blind people.You'd need someone to spearhead an organization to figure this out, but that'd have to first come with people believing that the money existed. I don't, and no one serious I've talked to over the years has either. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/560181/#p560181 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides @123 Sorry to be off-topic, but what have I missed about Final Fantasy I getting accessible with machine learning? I have never heard of that and Google didn't help either. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/560176/#p560176 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides @camlorn one more thing, if you could give me a list of open source project to check out and donate to, let me know. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/560171/#p560171 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides @camlorn, that's not true about blind people donating, I donate to NVDA when I can, that's open source isn't it.'ironcross, I disagree, I think Sam Smiths' post was fine.He's saying that he doesn't like the story but enjoys killing the zombies, i agree that killing zombies is fun URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/560170/#p560170 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides @127 That post was completely and utterly useless. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/560163/#p560163 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides @123It's annoying that even open source has accessibility problems, but if it ever came down to the wire and we needed something to be accessible or we all lose our jobs, we can at least do something about it. As someone who has looked into making open source projects accessible, they're more than happy to let you, it's just that no one knows how and it takes way more effort than people who aren't programmers think. This is especially true of desktop apps, because the desktop accessibility APIs are horrifically complicated for what they need to do and in some cases aren't properly documented.Blind people as a whole could get together and figure out a way to fund open source development of accessibility, but they haven't, and the problem is that people such as myself who can do it get to pick between a highly paid job or doing a bunch of work that's as difficult as that job for free. I estimate that it would take about $5 and a developer-year per GUI framework, which would make every app that uses said GUI framework accessible. In theory blind people could come together and make that happen. If you could find 5000 people with $100 a year, you could fund 10 GUI frameworks at once, possibly as many as 12 or 13 because the devs can help each other when one of them has a week of downtime for a code review or something, and you'd be playing with more money than NVDA gets through donations by far. Also, in year two, it'd speed up because you'd have a team of experts who know all the undocumented ins and outs and the behavior of all 6 or so screen readers, etc etc etc, and frankly at that point you'd probably start running out of popular GUI frameworks anyway.But this will never happen, and I don't understand why. 5000 people and $10 gets you one GUI framework, and even blind people on SSI can come up with $10/year, but for some reason when it comes to blind people buying things or donating to causes, it just can't happen.Regardless, at least put the blame in the right place. Even sighted OSS stuff has trouble getting funding. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/560145/#p560145 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides guys, for the game, i know it's not here, i just loved killing, the zombies, this story is nothing but, enjoy it, fine, you don't that's ok, but don't cry. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/560139/#p560139 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides @124, the use of corpse is intentional. @125: I'm just starting Free Code Camp's _javascript_ course. I know I was trying to learn Python before, but I find Free Code Camp's class-style interactivity, and small lessons, very helpful at grasping things through structured repetition. But that still doesn't make me able to understand code. Maybe in like a year, but that's just more waiting I'll have to do. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/560003/#p560003 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides @124, the use of corpse is intentional. @125: I'm just starting Free Code Camp's _javascript_ course. I know I was trying to learn Python before, but I find Free Code Camp's class-style interactivity, and small lessons, very helpful at grapsing things through structured repetition. But that still doesn't mak me able to understand code. Maybe in like a year, but that's just more waiting I'll have to do. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/560003/#p560003 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides @123, you have a point, but open-source does give people the option to speed up that process. The code is fully available, after all. Which may not be the biggest comfort, but it does provide a cushion, of sorts. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559956/#p559956 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides @123 Just as a quick aside, if you want to abbreviate the word corporation, it would be C, O, r, P. A corpse, C, O, R, P, S, E, is a dead body. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559948/#p559948 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides @dagonite, crap forgot how to spell it, do you prefer being called Rachael? I saw that previously but I don't know. Anyways, I kinda think you are a bit impatient. I am, especially about open source and how on one end you have the carrot, "We care about you! We aren't like the big corpses (corporations)! We want to make things better, more free, more good! We care!!!" But then you look at it and try Linux with Orca and try CLI Email clients because you've heard the CLI is literal Investiture that'll do anything with just your Intent! And you find that it's hard to use, made basically for developers and such. Yeah. Biggest let down I've ever experienced in tech, because at least with Apple and Google and other corpses you understand that their reason for existing is to make money. But people? Nonprofits? Yeah, they're the same too, and even worse because they don't have to follow a standard. They don't have to deal with the ADA I don't think. And even if they do, they don't have to worry about being sued. The FSF and all will slam you down just like a corpse. Of course, there are good things that come out of open source. Retroarch, Final Fantasy 1 being made accessible through machine learning, NVDA...And accessibility stuff anywhere takes time. Lots of time. So long that you think it'll never happen. And then, in a few years, it finally does. In iOS 14, braille readers will finally be able to have their displays scroll automatically. And for a one line display, of 80 characters or usually a lot less, that's a big deal. And it took like 10 versions for that to happen. And then you get surprises like the VoiceOver recognition. And if you want to see what it'd be like if Apple didn't, on some small leve, care about accessibility, just try Android with TalkBack. But I've already talked about that. Really, my points are that free and open source doesn't matter much for accessibility, and that stuff takes time, and sixteen times that for accessibility. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559946/#p559946 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides That's the first post I've deleted in a long, long time. I'm sorry for not seeing that, I actually did read the entire thread a couple times, but I've been having problems with browser cashing lately after moving to a new state and getting on a new ISP.Thanks for telling me.I still wish that the community failure clause would have been invoked and a temp ban would have been issued since similar things have been said after that warning, but obviously my initial reaction would be totally unfair.And Daigonite, after now being able to see the post you said this in; no, I really don't agree that you should put a bullet in your head. That would be a huge waste of your perspective and intelligence. I just want you to want to change more rather than blaming others for how you feel so much, get some real help if at all possible and try harder not to take it out on people who don't really deserve it.P.S. When I said "psychotic episode" I was more talking in a general medical sense rather than speaking of psychopathy. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559933/#p559933 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides That's the first post I've deleted in a long, long time. I'm sorry for not seeing that, I actually did read the entire thread a couple times, but I've been having problems with browser cashing lately after moving to a new state and getting on a new ISP.Thanks for telling me.I still wish that the community failure clause would have been invoked and a temp ban would have been issued since similar things have been said after that warning, but obviously my initial reaction would be totally unfair.And Daigonite, after now being able to see the post you said this in; no, I really don't agree that you should put a bullet in your head. That would be a huge waste of your perspective and intelligence. I just want you to want to change more rather than blaming others for how you feel so much, get some real help if at all possible and try harder not to take it out on people who don't really deserve it. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559933/#p559933 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides That's the first post I've deleted in a long, long time. I'm sorry for not seeing that, I actually did read the entire thread a couple times, but I've been having problems with browser cashing lately after moving to a new state and getting on a new ISP.Thanks for telling me.I still wish that the community failure clause would have been invoked and a temp ban would have been issued since similar things have been said after that warning, but obviously my initial reaction would be totally unfair.And Daigonite, after now being able to see the post you said this in; no, I really don't agree that you should put a bullet in your head. I just want you to want to change more rather than blaming others for how you feel so much, get some real help if at all possible and try harder not to take it out on people who don't really deserve it. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559933/#p559933 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides That's the first post I've deleted in a long, long time. I'm sorry for not seeing that, I actually did read the entire thread a couple times, but I've been having problems with browser cashing lately after moving to a new state and getting on a new ISP.Thanks for telling me.I still wish that the community failure clause would have been invoked and a temp ban would have been issued since similar things have been said after that warning, but obviously my initial reaction would be totally unfair.` URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559933/#p559933 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides That's the first post I've deleted in a long, long time. I'm sorry for not seeing that, I actually did read the entire thread a couple times, but I've been having problems with browser cashing lately after moving to a new state and getting on a new ISP.Thanks for telling me.I still wish that the community failure clause would have been invoked and a temp ban would have been issued since much has been said after that warning, but obviously my initial reaction would be totally unfair.` URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559933/#p559933 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides That's the first post I've deleted in a long, long time. I'm sorry for not seeing that, I actually did read the entire thread a couple times, but I've been having problems with browser cashing lately after moving to a new state and getting on a new ISP.Thanks for telling me.I still wish that the community failure clause would have been invoked and a temp ban would have been issued since much has been said after that warning, but obviously my initial reaction would be unfair. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559933/#p559933 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides That's the first post I've deleted in a long, long time. I'm sorry for not seeing that, I actually did read the entire thread a couple times, but I've been having problems with browser cashing lately after moving to a new state and getting on a new ISP.Thanks for telling me.I still wish that a temp ban would have been issued since much has been said after that warning, but obviously my initial reaction would be unfair. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559933/#p559933 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides That's the first post I've deleted in a long, long time. I'm sorry for not seeing that, I actually did read the entire thread but I've been having problems with browser cashing lately after moving to a new state and getting on a new ISP.Thanks for telling me. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559933/#p559933 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides It's very disappointing to me that Daigonite has not at least gotten a caution for their behavior yet. It's hard to defend the idea of fairness when moderators were clearly watching the thread and it still didn't happen.Daigonite seems to have essentially gotten a free pass to start a fight and use everyone here as a punching bag and say pretty much anything they wanted, regardless of the other person's attitude.I have theories about why this is, but I think it would be irresponsible to share them publicly when I don't know for sure.Usually I would give the benefit of the doubt in a situation like this, but it wasn't just one or two posts it was double digits, and I am completely confident in saying that almost anyone else would have been cautioned and likely warned at least once if they didn't stop after that.This harkens back to the incompetents shown when haily_merry had a similar drawn out episode several months back, but this seems even worse to me as there is no question that staff was available and everything was conveniently contained to a single thread from what I know.I am quite sure that if a person came here screaming mad about an article supporting planned parenthood with the same level of vitriol, then attacked everyone who tried to have a discussion about it with as much harsh language, and dubious accusations, while using demeaning and stereotyping insults that we would be in a far different place right now.Giving someone the space to vent about a real or perceived injustice doesn't mean letting them walk all over everyone else. Some leeway is definitely reasonable, but only when it applies to everyone equally and it has well defined boundaries.This exceeded that by a large amount in my opinion, and topically reminds me of the attitude that some city officials have publicly adopted when it comes to serious property damage, theft, and injury resulting from riots."We abused them so now they have the rite to abuse us back without consequence"This despite the fact that many black owned businesses were targeted as well, or the fact that an XBox or fancy handbag isn't exactly essential, or the fact that history has warned us against this time and time again and we should already know that this will hurt the cause in the longrun.I believe I see that same short sighted complex here, an immature version of social justice which is based around retribution rather than recovery; a tempting trap to fall into but ultimately bad for everyone when not used with care.Like I said, I'm very disappointed, and a bit ashamed for hoping this wouldn't happen again when it's clear to me now that no amount of argument or soothing words after the fact mean anything when situations like this come up and the true colors are shown again.I want genuine improvement, not empty assurances. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559928/#p559928 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides @120 And this is Exactly why people should read topics all the way through before writing posts of this sort. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559930/#p559930 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides Defender. Please see earlier in the thread where the OP received a double warning.BTW. I'm pretty sure a double warning is nothing like a double rainbow. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559929/#p559929 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides It's very disappointing to me that Daigonite has not at least gotten a caution for their behavior yet. It's hard to defend the idea of fairness when moderators were clearly watching the thread and it still didn't happen.Daigonite seems to have essentially gotten a free pass to start a fight and use everyone here as a punching bag and say pretty much anything they wanted, regardless of the other person's attitude.I have theories about why this is, but I think it would be irresponsible to share them publicly when I don't know for sure.Usually I would give the benefit of the doubt in a situation like this, but it wasn't just one or two posts it was double digits, and I am completely confident in saying that almost anyone else would have been cautioned and likely warned at least once if they didn't stop after that.This harkens back to the incompetents shown when haily_merry had a similar drawn out episode several months back, but this seems even worse to me as there is no question that staff was available and everything was conveniently contained to a single thread from what I know.I am quite sure that if a person came here screaming mad about an article supporting planned parenthood with the same level of vitriol, then attacked everyone who tried to have a discussion about it with as much harsh language, and dubious accusations, while using demeaning and stereotyping insults that we would be in a far different place right now.Giving someone the space to vent about a real or perceived injustice doesn't mean letting them walk all over everyone else. Some leeway is definitely reasonable, but only when it applies to everyone equally and it has well defined boundaries.This exceeded that by a large amount in my opinion, and topically reminds me of the attitude that some city officials have publicly adopted when it comes to serious property damage, theft, and injury resulting from riots."We abused them so now they have the rite to abuse us back without consequence"This despite the fact that many black owned businesses were targeted as well, or the fact that an XBox or fancy handbag isn't exactly essential, or the fact that history has warned us against this time and time again and we should already know that this will hurt the cause in the longrun.I believe I see that same short sighted complex here, an immature version of social justice which is based around retribution rather than recovery; a tempting trap to fall into but ultimately bad for everyone when not used with care. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559928/#p559928 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides It's very disappointing to me that Daigonite has not at least gotten a caution for her behavior yet. It's hard to defend the idea of fairness when moderators were clearly watching the thread and it still didn't happen.Daigonite seems to have essentially gotten a free pass to start a fight and use everyone here as a punching bag and say pretty much anything they wanted, regardless of the other person's attitude.I have theories about why this is, but I think it would be irresponsible to share them publicly when I don't know for sure.Usually I would give the benefit of the doubt in a situation like this, but it wasn't just one or two posts it was double digits, and I am completely confident in saying that almost anyone else would have been cautioned and likely warned at least once if they didn't stop after that.This harkens back to the incompetents shown when haily_merry had a similar drawn out episode several months back, but this seems even worse to me as there is no question that staff was available and everything was conveniently contained to a single thread from what I know.I am quite sure that if a person came here screaming mad about an article supporting planned parenthood with the same level of vitriol, then attacked everyone who tried to have a discussion about it with as much harsh language, and dubious accusations, while using demeaning and stereotyping insults that we would be in a far different place right now.Giving someone the space to vent about a real or perceived injustice doesn't mean letting them walk all over everyone else. Some leeway is definitely reasonable, but only when it applies to everyone equally and it has well defined boundaries.This exceeded that by a large amount in my opinion, and topically reminds me of the attitude that some city officials have publicly adopted when it comes to serious property damage, theft, and injury resulting from riots."We abused them so now they have the rite to abuse us back without consequence"This despite the fact that many black owned businesses were targeted as well, or the fact that an XBox or fancy handbag isn't exactly essential, or the fact that history has warned us against this time and time again and we should already know that this will hurt the cause in the longrun.I believe I see that same short sighted complex here, a version of social justice which is based around retribution rather than recovery; a tempting trap to fall into but ultimately bad for everyone when not used with care. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559928/#p559928 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides All I have to say is that I am utterly disgusted by the OPs behavior.@daigonite: you say that your an advocate for people with disabilities -- or you've implied it throughout the various posts that you've made. However, this topic... this topic has completely and utterly destroyed my faith and confidence in you to get things done and to help all of us out on here. In order to be an advocate for something, subtlety is required, as well as good communication skills and the ability to be eloquent. For example, if I was being hired for a job, and I required accommodations, I'm not going to assume that the company knows what I need -- because that's a risky assumption at best and a false one at worst. If I assume that they know what I need and they, in fact, don't, I'm not going to then rage at them, irrespective of how many times it happens to me. I'll rage in private, sure, but I'm no way in hell going to rage in public like you have in this topic. If you raged at a conference like you are on here -- or, hell, if someone from a game development company saw you raging like this on here -- do you know what they'd think? They'd think, "Wow, this forum has a bunch of entitled assholes, and even its advocates are a bunch of assholes -- why in hell should I go to my manager and tell them about people with disabilities for what we're making?" In other words, they'd think, "Fuck this forum and this 'blind community', I've got better things to do." Then, people like Ian have to step in and pick up the peaces, or try to. The problem is, the more devs that see this kind of attitude from this forum, the less willing they'll be to cooperate with people like Ian, and before you know it he'll just be ignored. I understand your anger, I really do... and I want laws like the ADA to be revised, and I want games to be more accessible for us without detracting from the overall gameplay experience as best as is achievable with modern technology. However, the way your going about it is [NOT] the way to do it and is more likely to completely undo everything that we've all worked for over the past 30-40 years. Trigger warnings aren't instant solvers for all disabilities; I know this because I have a minor case of epilepsy myself and don't know if anything can trigger it or not (thus far nothing has). However, trigger warnings are not just there so that companies can say "Oh, we've done our due diligence". They're there because its been shown that they do work in certain circumstances. Not all, of course, but some. If your particular circumstances are not one of those particular circumstances when they do work, then at least you've been warned about it and you know that the content in question can and will trigger you. But that is no excuse, whatsoever, for you to come in here and rage about it, and to generalize everyone's situation, and to project onto all of us and to expect something then to be done, because that raging is more likely to have a very negative consequence. You may have even turned off a game developer from adding accessibility into their next upcoming game because of this nonsense -- congratulations for making our lives a bit harder. You need to chill and come in here with a level head, and then people will listen to you. But right now, its you who has to listen, and its you who needs to ask yourself, "WTF am I doing? WTF have I done? What am I trying to accomplish? What have I achieved?" I guarantee that when you are able to ask yourself those questions with a level head you will not like what your mind comes back with. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559922/#p559922 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides Oh and one more thing, you're assuming I'm mad at you, I'm not, confused and a bit frustrated that you won't listen to us, yes, but mad, no, I have nothing to be mad about. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559857/#p559857 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides @daigonite, You didn't answer my question at all, yes your friend had bad experiences, that does not mean however that every single person is going to have a bad experience.It's clear to me that you have not played the game and just want something to rant about.I'm not exactly sure what we agreed on yesterday but coming back to the post again today, I don't see someone wanting to make a change for the better, I see an angry woman going nowhere because she's not listening to us.We are happy with the way things are and if we want changes in our comunity, we, blind peple, will go and try our best to get them.I'm not saying other disabled people or sighted people can't help us but if they act like you, they won't get very far.Remember my ex friendKaleigh? She did this kind of stuff, when we'd talk she'd basicly act like what I have to say isn't important, and that she knew all the facts and that's probably cause of her autism and the way she was raised.I mention this to say this, don't use your autism, if you have it, as a, I get to say what I want without anything happening, card, it won't work on this forum and that won't work in life.People are going to push back like we are doing now, you talk a lot about blindness stuff but the truth is you don't know what you're talking about in this case because you are not blind and haven't lived how we do every day. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559854/#p559854 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides You wanna know wwhy he got a warning? And Camlorn didn't? Because he just upped and called me a reactionary asshole because I told him that its not fair for him to say that we all act like blindness is the superior disability when some of us have other stuff, that may have caused our blindness. Camlorn diidn't come in the topiic and say fuck you daigonite you fucking idiot, he came in and said something though harsh, had a form of truth to it. And the fact that you keep rabbling on about "Cam", shows to me that you've taken it seriously. You allowed some random person on the internet to scar your mind so badly that you still go on and on even though the other person stepped out the argument. And then now you're riipping at anyone who steps in your path. Gosh. Grow up and understand this is the real world, not Pensyltucky URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559844/#p559844 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides See, now you're complicating the picture. This is a good thing, but it's also...well, complicated.On the one hand, yeah, no, we shouldn't just be happy with being thrown a bone. I hear that. Being told "yeah, we'll hire you, but this arbitrarily low ceiling is as high as we're ever gonna let you go" is demoralizing, ableist and awful. You'll get no argument from me on that.But here, I'll spell out an example for you.Some people really, really struggle with spatial navigation when blind. From the thread about cures for blindness, perhaps you noted the quick exchange between DarkEagle and myself, where I stated that I can play chess in my head but he stated he needs a board to look at. That's not to slam him at all, it's just how he is. No problem. Some blind folks, or people with cognitive disabilities, have an even greater issue with this. Since travel, in and of itself, is not the primary gameplay element, they elected to put in a fast-travel option so that you can get to the next safe place. For those who want to travel but want some protection - because a sighted person can see that cliff, but a blind person can't - there are options for that as well. If your reaction speed is a bit slower, either because of motor problems, a cognitive defecit, or because the eye is faster than the hand, you get things like being invisible while prone, and the ability to slow down enemy targeting speed.Not a single one of these things says, "Disabled people are stupid". I think that's the real rub here, Daigonite. I feel like because of your own experiences with trigger warnings - which, yes, should be common courtesy, and never mind those with mental illness because almost anyone can get triggered sometimes - you feel badly misunderstood by the able community at large. And it sounds like you are. I'm not here to argue with you about that or to shut you down. But where you're losing a bunch of us, I think, is that you are presuming to know what these people think and intend based on how you are being made to feel. If someone puts in a quick-navigation system into their game, I won't assume that they think I'm hopelessly directionally challenged until or unless they try to argue that blind people can't move around on maps (I am actually quite good at this in most games, which is why I brought it up). It's understandable to take serious issue with the way your own disability is framed, but I think it gets stretchy to start assuming that everyone else seems to have equally bad experiences, or sees the able as always and forever bent on not only imposing their own spin on the situation, but in infantilizing the disabled and characterizing them as folks who need all the help they can get.So the reason you're still making me cringe is because those people who try and advocate with us, who assume the worst and are loud and caustic - yes, even in your original post, that was clearly on display - are going to make things harder. Your able folks are going to see your assumptions, your vitriol, your outrage, and while a lot of it is justified based on how you've been treated throughout your life, your average person has no idea that this is the case. All they're going to see is a pissed-off woman who seems to want to just take bites out of everything. I'm here to tell you that this is not only harmful, it's straight-up counterproductive.I'll put it in terms you won't like but will almost certainly understand. We are a minority. We have nothing they want. We have nothing they need. We have little to offer them which they cannot get elsewhere. Any attempt to become more mainstream, to be taken seriously, has to come with the caveat that while it's perfectly okay for us to stand up and say "Hey, no, that doesn't work, please listen", we absolutely -can't characterize our interactions with these devs by spitting fire at them. A lot of these people are ignorant not because they want to be, but because they don't have enough experience to know any better. So teach them better, by all means. Say your points. Bring up your logic. Share whatever you want to share. But the more you act as if the mainstream is your enemy when trying to interact with them, the more you are actually conditioning them to tune you out.If our main allies were like you - or at least like you in this thread - we probably wouldn't have a voice anymore. So that's why a bunch of us are annoyed with you. What you're doing is a lot like trying to unearth a relatively delicate relic with a jackhammer. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559843/#p559843 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides You wanna know wwhy he got a warning? Because he just upped and called me a reactionary asshole because I told him that its not fair for him to say that we all act like blindness is the superioir disability when some of us have other stuff, that may have caused our blindness. Camlorn diidn't come in the topiic and say fuck you daigonite you fucking idiot, he came in and said something though harsh, had a form of truth to it. And the fact that you keep rabbling on about "Cam", shows to me that you've taken it seriously. You allowed some random person on the internet to scar your mind so badly that you still go on and on even though the other person stepped out the argument. And then now you're riipping at anyone who steps in your path. Gosh. Grow up and understand this is the real world, not Pensyltucky URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559844/#p559844 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides See, now you're complicating the picture. This is a good thing, but it's also...well, complicated.On the one hand, yeah, no, we shouldn't just be happy with being thrown a bone. I hear that. Being told "yeah, we'll hire you, but this arbitrarily low ceiling is as high as we're ever gonna let you go" is demoralizing, ableist and awful. You'll get no argument from me on that.But here, I'll spell out an example for you.Some people really, really struggle with spatial navigation when blind. From the thread about cures for blindness, perhaps you noted the quick exchange between DarkEagle and myself, where I stated that I can play chess in my head but he stated he needs a board to look at. That's not to slam him at all, it's just how he is. No problem. Some blind folks, or people with cognitive disabilities, have an even greater issue with this. Since travel, in and of itself, is not the primary gameplay element, they elected to put in a fast-travel option so that you can get to the next safe place. For those who want to travel but want some protection - because a sighted person can see that cliff, but a blind person can't - there are options for that as well. If your reaction speed is a bit slower, either because of motor problems, a cognitive defecit, or because the eye is faster than the hand, you get things like being invisible while prone, and the ability to slow down enemy targeting speed.Not a single one of these things says, "Disabled people are stupid". I think that's the real rub here, Daigonite. I feel like because of your own experiences with trigger warnings - which, yes, should be common courtesy, and never mind those with mental illness because almost anyone can get triggered sometimes - you feel badly misunderstood by the able community at large. And it sounds like you are. I'm not here to argue with you about that or to shut you down. But where you're losing a bunch of us, I think, is that you are presuming to know what these people think and intend based on how you are being made to feel. If someone puts in a quick-navigation system into their game, I won't assume that they think I'm hopelessly directionally challenged until or unless they try to argue that blind people can't move around on maps (I am actually quite good at this in most games, which is why I brought it up). It's understandable to take serious issue with the way your own disability is framed, but I think it gets stretchy to start assuming that everyone else seems to have equally bad experiences, or sees the able as always and forever bent on not only imposing their own spin on the situation, but in infantilizing the disabled and characterizing them as folks who need all the help they can get. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559843/#p559843 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides Dude, you're such a generalist, making blanket statements that basically invalidate any good points you do have. You need to stop trying to talk over everyone else and listen. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559841/#p559841 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides I went back and re-read Camlorn's first post in this thread and I didn't see anything wrong with it either. I don't always pick up on subtlety, especially where politics is concerned though. Mostly because I tend to be very straightforward in my dealings with people. I didn't think a warning was needed in his case, though I haven't followed their back and forth.@Brad regarding dumbing down games, I sort of get that. I don't want a partial experience, I want the whole thing. I understand that can't happen right away, but I would love to see strides being made with each new title to get us to that point. I recall a talk that I believe was given by Karen Stevens of EA where she was talking about providing *some*thing, and that it wasn't important if we had the full experience, just that that we had one.That type of attitude is short-sighted. I want to see people shifting away from it, but again, I recognize that it's a gradual process and takes time. I don't have access to Naughty Dog's budgeting data, but I'd imagine they spent into the millions on their effort to make their game as accessible as possible. Even cooler is they're being awesome about it and are willing to share what they've learned with other studios. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559838/#p559838 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides Look brad I told you what my experience was.Back in 2013-2015, I was close friends with 4 people, one of which I still work with regularly. This specific person has very specific struggles. It's because of him that I realized, yeah, not all blind people are the same. In fact its because his struggles were very specific to him that this was the case. And because I was modelling off of this guy I was addressing issues that were not necessarily true with others. This is why it came off as detached.This dude literally lost his job multiple times because of this very specific way that accessibility impacted him; like, even blind people disagree with accessibility. And that's the whole problem, you get one guy who says, yep this works for me, but then you get guys like my friend who say it doesn't. And I was a sighted person trying for the first time to model this problem.Like you're getting mad at me for being wrong and trying to learn from my mistakes and interacting with blind people directly.I've learned from that and I keep trying to present an alternative model that everyone on this site refuses to actually read. It's so unbelievably frustrating. I have support from people ranging from a guy who was struck by lightning to people who were born with motor disabilities, to other blind people, to schizophrenics, and I have to listen to how fucking people who literally will lecture me about my choice to take testosterone think I'm wrong cuz they can't even be bothered to read, despite explaining it 20 times.I actually disagree with the high level statistical approach you're assuming because that's literally what every UX asshole does and they never actually talk to a blind person. Do you really think that these people talked to a blind person before hiring them as a contractor or whatever? If that's the case, then whats the likelihood they would talk to you outside of asking for dev tips. Do you not think that has an influence on people's perception of blind people?Also, it's okay to be wrong. People make mistakes. The best people make the most mistakes cuz thats how they learn different.I've already given you very good reasons to be mad. The industry is literally saying the best you can ever be is an accessibility consultant. I thought we agreed on this yesterday. Why is that not infuriating. These people are literally fucking saying that devs like Aaron Baker aren't good enough to hire for a real game. Like, every other disability community is pissed at this shit? Look, the industry is throwing you a bone so you shut up. They always do this.Anyways I'm not dealing with a site full of people who earnestly believe that mentally ill people don't belong in disability politics and I have to listen to some ben shapiro lite telling me he hates trannies (but only when they're not the way he likes them). I'm tired of this shit.Hope this makes you all feel better URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559837/#p559837 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides Look brad I told you what my experience was.Back in 2013-2015, I was close friends with 4 people, one of which I still work with regularly. This specific person has very specific struggles. It's because of him that I realized, yeah, not all blind people are the same. In fact its because his struggles were very specific to him that this was the case. And because I was modelling off of this guy I was addressing issues that were not necessarily true with others. This is why it came off as detached.I've learned from that and I keep trying to present an alternative model that everyone on this site refuses to actually read. It's so unbelievably frustrating. I have support from people ranging from a guy who was struck by lightning to people who were born with motor disabilities, to other blind people, to schizophrenics, and I have to listen to how fucking people who literally will lecture me about my choice to take testosterone think I'm wrong cuz they can't even be bothered to read, despite explaining it 20 times.I actually disagree with the high level statistical approach you're assuming because that's literally what every UX asshole does and they never actually talk to a blind person. Do you really think that these people talked to a blind person before hiring them as a contractor or whatever? If that's the case, then whats the likelihood they would talk to you outside of asking for dev tips. Do you not think that has an influence on people's perception of blind people?Also, it's okay to be wrong. People make mistakes. The best people make the most mistakes cuz thats how they learn different.I've already given you very good reasons to be mad. The industry is literally saying the best you can ever be is an accessibility consultant. I thought we agreed on this yesterday. Why is that not infuriating. These people are literally fucking saying that devs like Aaron Baker aren't good enough to hire for a real game. Like, every other disability community is pissed at this shit? Look, the industry is throwing you a bone so you shut up. They always do this.Anyways I'm not dealing with a site full of people who earnestly believe that mentally ill people don't belong in disability politics and I have to listen to some ben shapiro lite telling me he hates trannies (but only when they're not the way he likes them). I'm tired of this shit.Hope this makes you all feel better URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559837/#p559837 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides @ironcross, oh yeah! It's amazing! There's what, over 60 accessibility options?Daigonite would probably say the game is dumbed down, well I'm sorry, but that has to happen, not everyone can play a huge game like this equally. It's not dumbing the game down, it's making a game playable for hundreds if not thousands of people.We don't live in a perfect world so the creators of these games are doing their best to have it so as many people can play the game as possible.We're not kissing NGs ass, we're happy that something like this is going on and are excited about it.I'll say it again, you have no proof that the blind person who worked on that side of the accessibility stuff was treated like shit, and I'm sure it wasn't just a blind person who activly worked on TLOU2s accessibility. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559834/#p559834 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides Moderation:Jacek, I went back and read what Camlorn said in post 3, and I don't see that as baiting at all. He was raising a fairly good point, and while he was a bit confrontational, he wasn't straight-up disrespectful. After that, both Daigonite and Camlorn traded a couple of posts with one another, but to my way of seeing it, that's on both of them. I absolutely do not see this as someone baiting someone else. The "would you take a blindness cure?" topic, where Camlorn called stuff out, and this one, are similar enough that I completely understand the issue, especially because Daigonite posted stuff in that other topic as well.So no, at this point I do not see a reason why Camlorn should get a warning. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559833/#p559833 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides @daigonite, to add on to what Jade has said about the blindness stuff.As far as I can tell you've not done the research into these products and actually asked blind people what they think of them and just want to rant for the sake of ranting.It would be like me going onto r/autism and making a rant about how much I fucking hate chewing necklaces and ggoing on and on and on when it's clear I have no idea what I'm talking about.This is what you're doing right now when talking about blindness stuff, you want us to be mad but don't give us any good reasons to be so then swair at us because you're not getting your own way and we're just kissing the asses of people who, in your eyes, have done us wrong.I used to have a friend called Kaleigh, she's autistic and has a couple more things to do with her brain, I can't remember them, but whenever we'd talk about something and I'd disagree with her, she'd say "you're wrong," and that's it, that's what it sounds like you're doing to me, saying we're wrong then when people say we don't care as much as you, if at all, you get mad and start making posts with all these swair words, we get it; you're mad, but you can't expect us to understand what exactly you're mad about when all we read is posts that fucking swair in every fucking sentence just to prove a fucking point. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559830/#p559830 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides I've watched someone go through just some of the accessibility options on stream, and they're great. It's really the largest step I've seen in my lifetime around a design that caters to a wider array of different disabilities. Does it cater to them all, no. But we're dealing with a problem of monumental proportions, and somewhere must mark the starting point. This has been a huge leap forward. Now we'll see who else will take the plunge, Ubisoft is looking promising. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559828/#p559828 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides @daigonite, wow, calm down.Let me ask you a question, have you actually played the game with the accessibility options? If not, how can you comment on them? they are very good for a mainstream title, and as for us playing mainstream games from the beginning, er, no? This is an audio game site, so people may have pressed the buttons on some controlers and tried to play the games and some may have even been able to play the games but saying we as an entire group have done this is wrong.You're saying, NG did this to a blind person, and that too, but you don't give us any proof.The person wasn't treated like shit, if they were they would have left.SO yes i'm happy the game has accessibility options and because of this, other games will do too.You're getting so mad over things we as blind people don't care that much about and if we do, we don't make posts like you have putting the words fuck and shit in nearly every sentence.I've tried and tried and tried again to get your points but honestly, I don't, you're mad that disabled gamers don't have it as good as non disabled gamers, cool, i'm fine with that, but when you start going on about blindness stuff then expect blind people to be as mad as you over things you see as wrong and we aren't, you get even madder and make posts like your last 2 or 3, we aren't you Rachel and we have our own way of thinking about things.IF you truely want to fix things, you're going to have to calm down hugely and think on how you as one person are going to do it, tip, it's not like this. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559825/#p559825 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides Now, to address some of the points you've raised here:Okay, so let me see if I have this straight. You personally don't find that trigger warnings help you at all. Okay, I'm on board with that. You say they are a bad idea. I'm...not quite following you here, since they do seem to help some others, at least. My stance on this is that trigger warnings don't hurt you, and others like you; they simply don't help. You've said more than once that there is really no solution that will guaranteed make things any easier, no design choices that will make any media risk-free, because that's just not how PTSD works. So I guess what I don't understand is this. Why not just ignore the bits that don't work for you? I'm sorry, but you have yet to demonstrate how trigger warnings are actually harmful. If a trigger warning implicitly or explicitly stated that such an innovation represents a cure for or prevention of PTSD symptoms, then sure. False advertising. False representation. Ignoring science. But last time I checked, nobody's actually doing that. People are dropping trigger warnings into products not just because of PTSD, either, but because as you rightly pointed out, associative memory can be extremely powerful. Someone not officially diagnosed with PTSD, but who used to hear their parents fight a lot, might get really distressed if there's a scene where, for whatever reason, you're listening to a man and woman fight in the next room. Obviously, that bit of plot might need to be there for the story, and we can't just excise everything that might possibly trigger someone, so a trigger warning just waves a flag saying "Hey, this type of content has been known to trigger some folks and make them upset, and it's coming up". I see absolutely no problem with this.I fully agree with you, BTW, that epilepsy is a huge deal because a seizure can straight-up kill someone. Those types of warnings, where applicable, need to be extremely clear.I think my biggest problem with what you're saying right now is that you're still talking about the blind. You're talking about how we're being used, not listened to, taken advantage of. Now, for some of this (Apple, for instance), I agree with you entirely. But with other stuff, I feel like maybe it's time for you to sit down and listen. Actually listen, I mean; don't just wait for someone to be done talking so you can start swearing again.For instance, it's true that oftentimes, able-bodied individuals are the ones who dictate the terms by which the disabled interface with what they create. And that can be bad, especially if there's no consultation with those for whom purported accommodations are being made. But what's happening here is that you seem to be objecting to accommodations that most of us blind folk don't mind. Even if we weren't involved in creating all of them, even if we didn't create the innovations ourselves in some cases, we learned to navigate them, and in a lot of cases we're not only just okay with them, we -like them. Sometimes, it's possible for those who have power over you to make the right decision even if they go about it in the wrong way. I fully agree that they should be including us wherever and however they can, but that does not mean that a failure to do so is guaranteed to lead to a bad outcome.Regarding TLU2, I have never played the game myself, but there are a crapton of different accessibility options. Some of them deal with low vision (changing text size, colour contrasts, etc). Some of them deal with those who are hard of hearing (subtitles, visual cues replacing audio ones, etc.). Some of them even get into the realm of cognitive ability, as I understand. What I see here is a sort of blanket approach to accessibility where they're trying hard to accommodate everyone without totally blowing their game apart. Anyone can use any combination of accessibility options that they wish, regardless of their ability. Personally, I don't see a problem with this. When you say that you do, I feel as if you may be presenting a problem that you personally have as a problem that the industry has. A game which would not have been playable for whole subsets of people can now be played, and quite successfully from what I understand. Things like this ought to be the design standard going forward, IMO. I guess I'm struggling to see a problem with that, and so are most of the blind folks in this thread who have extensive accessibility experience.I'm not gonna lie. To some extent, it sounds to me as if the only solution you're interested in is where the disabled design games for the disabled, ground up, with little to no outside help. Or, failing that, as if input is only valuable when it comes from within a given circle. I'm sorry, but I just don't buy it. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559823/#p559823 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides Read the OP. Then read Cam. It's called bait. I got baited.I wanted to work together from the beginning and the OP makes that very clear.Tried to point this out to Jayde. Tried to point this out to literally everyone in this fucking thread. Seems like Brad's the only one who got a clue. Read the fucking OP or shut up. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559822/#p559822 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides Read the OP. Then read Cam. It's called bait. I got baited.Tried to point this out to Jayde. Tried to point this out to literally everyone in this fucking thread. Seems like Brad's the only one who got a clue. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559822/#p559822 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides Look nobody here wants me anyways and I've been betrayed so much that I was going to leave anyways, none of you people want me here anyways and I probably would be better off putting a bullet in my head anyways. And everyone, please let me know if you agree with me.Cam is just a pissed off guy. This will pass. I don't really care much about him, I'm just mad that he derailed the thread and people still won't read the OP with good faith. I've made threads like this many times in the past and this is the first time it was ever hijacked by someone like this. He has a grudge.However. Ian Hamilton is a fucking asshole who deserves to be called out. I told you in DMs, he's actually scared off people from trying to develop audio games in the past and I've had to try to help people get back into it. He's literally a rich abled asshole who told me to "go make connections" when I was trying to fight falling into the streets. Ian works in the industry, gets paid for this, he absolutely 100% is not immune to criticism. If you want to ban me, I don't give a shit. I will destroy that motherfucker's career.And every fucking article will cite him before they cite any of you.You all literally spent all day yesterday saying it was "cringe" how someone with PTSD got pissed that a bunch of people who didn't even bother to give them the time of day to just talk about THEIR OWN DISABILITY and how accessibility impacts THEM. I tried to make a fucking bridge because I actually thought this community were my friends. I get it, you're all on the top of disability mountain. You all have every fucking right to be pissed, but you all wonder why devs keep leaving your community. Wow, I wonder why that is. Someone tries to open up about their own struggle and you instantly accuse them of talking over you just cuz they're different.You literally talk over each other all the time on this forum and you wonder why you're all fucking miserable. Damn. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559817/#p559817 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides Your response to this is the entire reason why it seems to me that you don't want to figure it out together. Your actions and your words do not jive.That's all I will say on the matter. There's no further point in making things worse. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559821/#p559821 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides And yes, I apologize for being baited by Cam, but JaceK is right, he literally baited a person with PTSD talking about their own shit and derailed the thread. I told you in DMs how bad it's been lately. I never was trying to say "I'm king of PTSD" or "I know better than blind people".I literally made the same points to like 3 other groups of people with different disabilities and no problems. I've made threads like this multiple times and never received this level of toxic response and like I said earlier I have no intentions with engaging much further with the community after they revealed how they really feel about me and other disabilities. I am genuinely betrayed by the shit that happened in this thread. I cannot stress enough how fucking frustrated I am with the community.You wanna gloat about that? Great! Have fun alienating another dev and sucking off people who would never hire you for a real dev position. Clearly you don't need me. I mean, I'll still keep making games but whatever, clearly Ian's got everything settled for you guys.I get it. I'm sighted. I'm different. I don't want to be "different", I just want my fucking friends. I have strong political opinions. So what. Maybe we can figure it out together. I posted on here because I DIDN'T want to just assume what blind people thought. And look what happened anyways. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559819/#p559819 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides And yes, I apologize for being baited by Cam, but JaceK is right, he literally baited a person with PTSD talking about their own shit and derailed the thread. I told you in DMs how bad it's been lately. I never was trying to say "I'm king of PTSD" or "I know better than blind people".I literally made the same points to like 3 other groups of people with different disabilities and no problems. I've made threads like this multiple times and never received this level of toxic response and like I said earlier I have no intentions with engaging much further with the community after they revealed how they really feel about me and other disabilities. I am genuinely betrayed by the shit that happened in this thread. I cannot stress enough how fucking frustrated I am with the community.You wanna gloat about that? Great! Have fun losing another dev.I get it. I'm sighted. I'm different. I don't want to be "different", I just want my fucking friends. I have strong political opinions. So what. Maybe we can figure it out together. I posted on here because I DIDN'T want to just assume what blind people thought. And look what happened anyways. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559819/#p559819 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides And yes, I apologize for being baited by Cam, but JaceK is right, he literally baited a person with PTSD talking about their own shit and derailed the thread. I told you in DMs how bad it's been lately.I've made threads like this multiple times and never received this level of toxic response and like I said earlier I have no intentions with engaging much further with the community after they revealed how they really feel about me and other disabilities. I am genuinely betrayed by the shit that happened in this thread. I cannot stress enough how fucking frustrated I am with the community.You wanna gloat about that? Great! Have fun losing another dev.I get it. I'm sighted. I'm different. I don't want to be "different", I just want my fucking friends. I have strong political opinions. So what. Maybe we can figure it out together. I posted on here because I DIDN'T want to just assume what blind people thought. And look what happened anyways. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559819/#p559819 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides Look nobody here wants me anyways and I've been betrayed so much that I was going to leave anyways, none of you people want me here anyways and I probably would be better off putting a bullet in my head anyways. And everyone, please let me know if you agree with me.Cam is just a pissed off guy. This will pass. I don't really care much about him, I'm just mad that he derailed the thread and people still won't read the OP with good faith. I've made threads like this many times in the past and this is the first time it was ever hijacked by someone like this. He has a grudge.However. Ian Hamilton is a fucking asshole who deserves to be called out. I told you in DMs, he's actually scared off people from trying to develop audio games in the past and I've had to try to help people get back into it. He's literally a rich abled asshole who told me to "go make connections" when I was off the street. Ian works in the industry, gets paid for this, he absolutely 100% is not immune to criticism. If you want to ban me, I don't give a shit. I will destroy that motherfucker's career.And every fucking article will cite him before they cite any of you.You all literally spent all day yesterday saying it was "cringe" how someone with PTSD got pissed that a bunch of people who didn't even bother to give them the time of day to just talk about THEIR OWN DISABILITY and how accessibility impacts THEM. I tried to make a fucking bridge because I actually thought this community were my friends. I get it, you're all on the top of disability mountain. You all have every fucking right to be pissed, but you all wonder why devs keep leaving your community. Wow, I wonder why that is. Someone tries to open up about their own struggle and you instantly accuse them of talking over you just cuz they're different.You literally talk over each other all the time on this forum and you wonder why you're all fucking miserable. Damn. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559817/#p559817 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides @Jade: I'm going to point to your warning and ask you to look into Camlorn provoking the hell out of the OP and to give Camlorn punishment too, he's literally been poking and prodding Dagonite across multiple threads and baiting him over and over over and over and wanting a reaction,a nd he got what he wanted and got the OP warned twice and seemingly (unless I missed it) got away with it scot free which IMO is wrong and sets a very, very dangerous precednet, you're saying it's okay to bait people and go from thread to thread baiting people and then when they react, they get warned and I get no punishment for instigating and more to the point, carrying on the baiting multiple times URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559818/#p559818 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides Look nobody here wants me anyways and I've been betrayed so much that I was going to leave anyways, none of you people want me here anyways and I probably would be better off putting a bullet in my head anyways. And everyone, please let me know if you agree with me.Cam is just a pissed off guy. This will pass. I don't really care much about him, I'm just mad that he derailed the thread and people still won't read the OP with good faith. I've made threads like this many times in the past and this is the first time it was ever hijacked by someone like this. He has a grudge.However. Ian Hamilton is a fucking asshole who deserves to be called out. I told you in DMs, he's actually scared off people from trying to develop audio games in the past and I've had to try to help people get back into it. He's literally a rich abled asshole who told me to "go make connections" when I was off the street. Ian works in the industry, gets paid for this, he absolutely 100% is not immune to criticism. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559817/#p559817 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides First of all, you don't know the origin of my name, so you have no room to speak on it. I had absolutely zero idea that it was a nazi reference until Dark pointed that out several years ago in this thread. I was 19 at the time when I started using it. I didn't give two shits about politics or history back then, so I had no clue. I'm known by that name now on various platforms and am not about to change it. If a few clueless souls such as yourself want to assume the worst about me because of it, I'll accept that.I'm lecturing trans people about how their shit works? Get a clue! Also I chuckled at you calling me a liberal when I'm markedly opposite of that. I wonder if maybe you would quit telling others to read your posts and give them the benefit of the doubt like a decent person, and actually start reading everyone else's posts rather than find the first thing that sets you off and go off on a tirade about it, if this wouldn't happen.You're a child in an adult's body. Your anger - while some of it may be justified - is misdirected. You don't even know why you're angry. You know parts of it, but not all. And yes, now I am lecturing you, just so we're clear. You definitely are projecting, and you don't care who you hit with your bile.You know what though, I do have something to thank you about. I have to thank you, because for the first time, I see what effect my past anger-filled posts have achieved. I have seen them after the fact and have thought, "Damn, I did go too far that time", but after seeing a dozen or so of yours, I really do believe the message is sinking in now.You're a very bitter person. For what it's worth, I'm sorry that you've had more heaped on your plate than some of us. I'm sorry that your past traumas have continued to play such a main role in your life that you still suffer because of them. I'm sorry you haven't yet gotten the help you needed, and I hope that you do one day. I can spot your intellect even in the middle of the worst of your posts, but you need more work to shape and mold your character to express it in ways that other people can come to grips with. Coming here and fighting with all of us isn't solving anything. Saying you have this new revolutionary idea and trying to use a battering ram to get people to listen isn't the way. These things take time, and patience.I wish that we were further along than we are today. I can say that about many facets of life, not just gaming. We're a half-finished project, and I think the toxic political climate we've seen over the past few years is part of our growth process as a species. It's harder and harder for me each day to respect liberals, and it grows easier and easier for me to hate them. We're being used like pawns in a chess game, two sides of the isle being used by the man.I want things to level out, and I have faith that they will in time, but I fear what destruction must come, and I fear the darkness that will inevitably come before dawn's first ray of light leaves a goldenrod shaft along the dew-slicked grass. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559815/#p559815 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides I've been reading this thread and I just wanted to chime in, I don't have a problem with well written relationships in media. I have a problem with horrifically shitty overdone, it's all about sex relationships in scenes/life thanks, and don't get me going on creators who do sex scenes that wouldn't be out of place in 1990s late night way down the channel German hotel porn (yes that was a thing). I don't care if characters are whatever orientation. It pisses me off if they are horribly overdone and suchlike, y'know?Also Ironcross is, IIRC a Weimar Republic medal, IIRC *waves history book* URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559814/#p559814 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides @95No shit. Blindness is caused by like a million things. Really makes you wonder then why is everyone being such a fucking asshole to other disabilities. You act like you live in a void. I've been showing this to people on my twitter and other social circles publicly because you seem to think you're the center of the disability universe. Go on another fucking site. Go and talk to literally anyone else. Jesus fucking christ.Its almost as if people with PTSD are different people and have different opinions. I'm a leftist. No fucking shit I'm critical of corporations. And no, they actually do fuck up your lives. Otherwise you would be fine with using JAWS instead of most people migrating to NVDA, surely? Why do you think they charge money for tools you literally need to get by? Its not because they're "very nice". We all are aware of the markups, the condescending attitude, ect. I'm not saying agree with me.Also, lol the people in this thread proving Foucault right with labeling my anger as "psychosis" lol holy shit. How about reading a book not named harry potter?I didn't come on here saying I was king PTSD shit, I came on here saying that I don't like trigger warnings because they make PTSD look like pussy shit. You are completely entitled to disagree with me but maybe, instead of acting like a reactionary asshole who thinks that I'm doing this cuz I want to stand over blind people, I'm just trying to raise awareness to a problem that pisses me off.Oddly enough, you point out exactly why trigger warnings dont work - they are very unpredictable.@96Maybe he shouldn't talk about gay people that way if he doesn't want to be made fun over his name for it. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559811/#p559811 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides Moderation:Daigonite, I hate to do this to you, but you've got this coming.There are two separate posts this morning which definitely verge way into personal attack territory. You target Camlorn specifically, as well as Ian Hamilton. You also target the bunch of us. The level of vitriol is far beyond what is required to make your point, and indeed, it contributes to the angle I pointed out earlier, that you're going to muddy the water so badly that people won't find it easy to take your good points - because you do have them - more seriously.As such, consider yourself warned. Twice. I don't want to have to ban you, even temporarily, so I would ask as an administrator of the site that you take some time to cool off a bit. Some of the points you've made definitely bear consideration - and I'm going to address them in a separate post - but right now, most of what I'm seeing is snarling and snapping. And no, this is not "white dude trying to tone-police", either; I'm not for an instant suggesting that you don't have any right to be angry. In fact, I think you've got plenty of reasons to be pissed off. But that doesn't entitle you to curse out other users, and to engage in personal attacks this way. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559813/#p559813 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides @95No shit. Blindness is caused by like a million things. Really makes you wonder then why is everyone being such a fucking asshole to other disabilities. You act like you live in a void. I've been showing this to people on my twitter and other social circles publicly because you seem to think you're the center of the disability universe.Its almost as if people with PTSD are different people and have different opinions. I'm a leftist. No fucking shit I'm critical of corporations. And no, they actually do fuck up your lives. Otherwise you would be fine with using JAWS instead of most people migrating to NVDA, surely? Why do you think they charge money for tools you literally need to get by? Its not because they're "very nice". We all are aware of the markups, the condescending attitude, ect. I'm not saying agree with me.Also, lol the people in this thread proving Foucault right with labeling my anger as "psychosis" lol holy shit.I didn't come on here saying I was king PTSD shit, I came on here saying that I don't like trigger warnings because they make PTSD look like pussy shit. You are completely entitled to disagree with me but maybe, instead of acting like a reactionary asshole who thinks that I'm doing this cuz I want to stand over blind people, I'm just trying to raise awareness to a problem that pisses me off.Oddly enough, you point out exactly why trigger warnings dont work - they are very unpredictable.@96Maybe he shouldn't talk about gay people that way if he doesn't want to be made fun over his name for it. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559811/#p559811 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides @95No shit. Blindness is caused by like a million things. Really makes you wonder then why is everyone being such a fucking asshole to other disabilities. You act like you live in a void. I've been showing this to people on my twitter and other social circles publicly because you seem to think you're the center of the disability universe.Its almost as if people with PTSD are different people and have different opinions. I'm a leftist. No fucking shit I'm critical of corporations. And no, they actually do fuck up your lives. Otherwise you would be fine with using JAWS instead of most people migrating to NVDA, surely? Why do you think they charge money for tools you literally need to get by? Its not because they're "very nice". We all are aware of the markups, the condescending attitude, ect. I'm not saying agree with me.Also, lol the people in this thread proving Foucault right with labeling my anger as "psychosis" lol holy shit.Oddly enough, you point out exactly why trigger warnings dont work - they are very unpredictable.@96Maybe he shouldn't talk about gay people that way if he doesn't want to be made fun over his name for it. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559811/#p559811 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides People in this topic making me feel smart. Also, IronCross name does not have anything to do with nazis. He elaborated on this in one of the username origin topics I believe. If such a thing were the case I find it likely that he would’ve been ordered to change it a long time ago. So that point is irrelevant. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559807/#p559807 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides People in this topic making me feel smart. Also, IronCross name does not have anything to do with nazis. He elaborated on this in one of the username origin topics I believe. If such a thing were the case I find it likely that he would’ve been ordered to change it. So that point is irrelevant. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559807/#p559807 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides People in this topic making me feel smart. Also, IronCross name does not have anything to do with nazis. He elaborated on this in one of the username origin topics I believe. If such a thing were the case I find it likely that he would’ve been ordered to change it. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559807/#p559807 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides Man, you should really sit down and sip a glass of water with 15 Ice Cubes in it. Because that last post of yours seems like you're intense.I think you fail to understand that for many people on this forum, blindness isn't their only disability. For some, blindness is just the Biproduct of some other condition. And the fact that you neglected that in your post then proceeded to go on about us being entitled again, shows that you're no different than the people you lash out against or criticise.And yet again, a terribly, horribly, rotten way to garner support. Fun fact, I have PTSD just like you too, but you don't see me rambling on about how terrible and evil the coorperations are for putting in things that are meant to avoid fucking up the lives of people like you and I. I don't think they have warnings for my situation, which, is quick bright white flashes on the screen, but at least others with more sevare instances can at least be warned, or prepared.Ugh. The entitledness URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559805/#p559805 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides Man, you should really sit down and sip a glass of water with 15 Ice Cubes in it. Because that last post of yours seems like you're intense.I think you fail to understand that for many people on this forum, blindness isn't their only disability. For some, blindness is just the Biproduct of some other condition. And the fact that you neglected that in your post then proceeded to go on about us being entitled again, shows that you're no different than the people you lash out against or criticise. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559805/#p559805 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides @92 - I'm pissed because Cam has literally continued a fight from another thread and completely derailed my thread, and caused like 5 people on here to say incredibly shitty things about people with other disabilities. He is a petty piece of shit and he only left because I called him out. You all seem to think the only disability in the whole world that matters is blindness. It's obvious from the dumb ass shit I see posted in the Coronavirus thread.Man, I wonder why I'm still pissed about that. You know because this fucking asshole has pursued me in multiple threads and refuses to actually read my posts. Or how about imagine being so out of touch you say "psychotic people shouldn't talk in disability politics". Would be a fucking shame if psychotic people WERE ACTUALLY DISABLED wouldn't it?Me fucking trying to inform you what groups like Ablegamers are doing to control accessibility and how that might be part of a larger movement to dumb down your software is not fucking "a sighted person bluff bullshit". It's me fucking telling you how these assholes literally see you as retards and are trying to tell you how to interact with your software.And I used my OWN disability to show you how they do it to other people too.I'm fucking pissed with you lot because I didn't come on this fucking forum to suck dick, I came on this forum because I was literally a disabled retard who didn't realize it yet and was trying to figure myself out with other blind people. I actually fucking thought I related to you assholes. Yeah I'm not blind but I guess that doesn't matter does it.Go fuck yourself. For a bunch of people bitching about "disabled identity" you sure want to solidify yourselves as blind people and isolate yourself from other disabilities.@93 - Ironcross, you're literally lecturing trans people how this shit works. Why do you think we make fun of you for being straight and being named iron cross. Just because you're a liberal and don't want to admit you're being a fucking homophobe because you don't like characters being "gay" in your games unless they fit your version of "gay" doesn't mean its not actually shitty.Lol people seriously more mad at me on this thread for trying to show you all how the growing sighted accessibility movement treats you like fucking retard dummies and how we should fucking stand up against this than you literally bitching about gay people in your games. Shut the fuck up. We've seen your type a thousand times before and we know you're full of shit. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559802/#p559802 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides @92 - I'm pissed because Cam has literally continued a fight from another thread and completely derailed my thread, and caused like 5 people on here to say incredibly shitty things about people with other disabilities. He is a petty piece of shit and he only left because I called him out. You all seem to think the only disability in the whole world that matters is blindness. It's obvious from the dumb ass shit I see posted in the Coronavirus thread.Man, I wonder why I'm still pissed about that. You know because this fucking asshole has pursued me in multiple threads and refuses to actually read my posts. Or how about imagine being so out of touch you say "psychotic people shouldn't talk in disability politics". Would be a fucking shame if psychotic people WERE ACTUALLY DISABLED wouldn't it?Me fucking trying to inform you what groups like Ablegamers are doing to control accessibility and how that might be part of a larger movement to dumb down your software is not fucking "a sighted person bluff bullshit". It's me fucking telling you how these assholes literally see you as retards and are trying to tell you how to interact with your software.And I used my OWN disability to show you how they do it to other people too.I'm fucking pissed with you lot because I didn't come on this fucking forum to suck dick, I came on this forum because I was literally a disabled retard who didn't realize it yet and was trying to figure myself out with other blind people. I actually fucking thought I related to you assholes. Yeah I'm not blind but I guess that doesn't matter does it.Go fuck yourself. For a bunch of people bitching about "disabled identity" you sure want to solidify yourselves as blind people and isolate yourself from other disabilities.@93 - Ironcross, you're literally lecturing trans people how this shit works. Why do you think we make fun of you for being straight and being named iron cross. Just because you're a liberal and don't want to admit you're being a fucking homophobe because you don't like characters being "gay" in your games unless they fit your version of "gay" doesn't mean its not actually shitty.Lol people seriously more mad at me on this thread for trying to show you all how the growing sighted accessibility movement treats you like fucking retard dummies and how we should fucking stand up against this than you literally bitching about gay people in your games. Fuck you. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559802/#p559802 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides @92 - I'm pissed because Cam has literally continued a fight from another thread and completely derailed my thread, and caused like 5 people on here to say incredibly shitty things about people with other disabilities. He is a petty piece of shit and he only left because I called him out. You all seem to think the only disability in the whole world that matters is blindness. It's obvious from the dumb ass shit I see posted in the Coronavirus thread.Man, I wonder why I'm still pissed about that. Or how about imagine being so out of touch you say "psychotic people shouldn't talk in disability politics". Would be a fucking shame if psychotic people WERE ACTUALLY DISABLED wouldn't it?Me fucking trying to inform you what groups like Ablegamers are doing to control accessibility and how that might be part of a larger movement to dumb down your software is not fucking "a sighted person bluff bullshit". It's me fucking telling you how these assholes literally see you as retards and are trying to tell you how to interact with your software.And I used my OWN disability to show you how they do it to other people too.I'm fucking pissed with you lot because I didn't come on this fucking forum to suck dick, I came on this forum because I was literally a disabled retard who didn't realize it yet and was trying to figure myself out with other blind people. I actually fucking thought I related to you assholes.Go fuck yourself.@93 - Ironcross, you're literally lecturing trans people how this shit works. Why do you think we make fun of you for being straight and being named iron cross. Just because you're a liberal and don't want to admit you're being a fucking homophobe because you don't like characters being "gay" in your games unless they fit your version of "gay" doesn't mean its not actually shitty.Lol people seriously more mad at me on this thread for trying to show you all how the growing sighted accessibility movement treats you like fucking retard dummies and how we should fucking stand up against this than you literally bitching about gay people in your games. Fuck you. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559802/#p559802 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides @92 - I'm pissed because Cam has literally continued a fight from another thread and completely derailed my thread, and caused like 5 people on here to say incredibly shitty things about people with other disabilities. He is a petty piece of shit and he only left because I called him out.Me fucking trying to inform you what groups like Ablegamers are doing to control accessibility and how that might be problematic is not fucking "a sighted person bluff bullshit". It's me fucking telling you how these assholes literally see you as retards and are trying to tell you how to interact with your software.And I used my OWN disability to show you how they do it to other people too.I'm fucking pissed with you lot because I didn't come on this fucking forum to suck dick, I came on this forum because I was literally a disabled retard who didn't realize it yet and was trying to figure myself out with other blind people. I actually fucking thought I related to you assholes.Go fuck yourself.@93 - Ironcross, you're literally lecturing trans people how this shit works. Why do you think we make fun of you for being straight and being named iron cross. Just because you're a liberal and don't want to admit you're being a fucking homophobe because you don't like characters being "gay" in your games unless they fit your version of "gay" doesn't mean its not actually shitty.Lol people seriously more mad at me on this thread for trying to show you all how the growing sighted accessibility movement treats you like fucking retard dummies and how we should fucking stand up against this than you literally bitching about gay people in your games. Fuck you. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559802/#p559802 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides @92 - I'm pissed because Cam has literally continued a fight from another thread and completely derailed my thread, and caused like 5 people on here to say incredibly shitty things about people with other disabilities. He is a petty piece of shit and he only left because I called him out.Me fucking trying to inform you what groups like Ablegamers are doing to control accessibility and how that might be problematic is not fucking "a sighted person bluff bullshit". It's me fucking telling you how these assholes literally see you as retards and are trying to tell you how to interact with your software.And I used my OWN disability to show you how they do it to other people too.I'm fucking pissed with you lot because I didn't come on this fucking forum to suck dick, I came on this forum because I was literally a disabled retard who didn't realize it yet and was trying to figure myself out with other blind people. I actually fucking thought I related to you assholes.Go fuck yourself. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559802/#p559802 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides @89 You're the one who needs to shut up, because what you're spouting is a bunch of nonsense with one or two somewhat cogent points buried in the midst of it.Also, people like you and Haily would love to assume that people like me hate gay and trans people. It's literally what makes your world go round, the fact that you can wake up and pretend that you're doing good because you've called out another homophobe. I'm not gonna get mad about it, because you won't stop even if I do, so I don't see the point. You need there to be people in your world who you can hate on, and dump your vitriolic thoughts on. Unfortunately, your targeting system is malfunctioning, because you and others like you go after the wrong people.There's also the fact that Haily lurks until there's some drama then she dive bombs like a carrion eater on it. So I don't really take her thoughts much into consideration. At least Jayde tries to do good. Our views don't align on many things, and I think he is misguided and more than a little arrogant when he smells blood in the water, but his overarching goal is to do good. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559801/#p559801 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides @86this is literally why you're mad. Hey, why don't you ask your other iron cross friends what they think about trigger warnings? LOL don't act like people aren't watching at this point after the shit that happened yesterday :^)Anyways if you're not aware I'm literally gay and trans, you're a dime a dozen, shut up. Does it trigger you that a tranny is literally making your games?Also Cam literally believes that technology is bad but cures are good and still hasn't explained to me how the fuck that works. So I'm just going to assume he is doing nothing other than getting angry behind a computer. He has no fucking point.Listen guys, I get it. Thanks for letting me know I'm fucking different, and you're different from me. I can't see your faces and I thought the forum would be a way to normalize that. I'm just glad I have blind friends offsite because what I saw last night was really fucking revealing. I can totally see why many devs have been chased off these forums; you know, I've had to try to convince sighted devs to keep fighting because the fucking assholes who you guys sniff the assholes for in these threads (and no, not Steve, I'm talking the corporations) literally think you're fucking retards who aren't even worth having a real coding position on these games. They literally think you're fucking dogshit, and the disabled people involved are holding their head low to just have a chance to make things a little fucking better. Thats what you guys don't get in your little misery chairs.You fucking gamers literally have no fucking clue what the hell is going on with this shit. They literally want to make games retarded for you, or they want to charge millions of dollars for it. What do you think this is going to do to mainstream gaming. Don't give me this fucking shit that you're all like, baw baw baw we'll just make our own, cuz that's a fucking lie; you guys have been playing mainstream games ever since day one here. And you don't think that's going to impact literally every piece of technology you use?Fucking pathetic. You can be mad at me and assume that me telling you to not just assume everyone agrees with your disabled experience and trying to help give a larger social context to disability in general is me talking over you. I'm sorry that disabled people outside of your sphere of yourself triggers you so much that you have to throw a fit when they disagree with you on something really fucking mundane. Clearly disabled people coming out about their own issues and trying to relate to other disabled people is the same as talking over people. I should have seen this coming from the fucking coronavirus thread, god damn. Go and fucking talk to other disabled people you fucking hermit assholes. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559792/#p559792 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides @89, Please stop it with this entitled sighted-man's bluff bullshit you're on about. I haven't seen Camlorn post in this topic for at least the past 40 posts, so the fact that you still rabble on and on about hiim being angry behind his computer and rarara, while you continue to posts these, really triggered posts, I think it really says a lot more about you than Camlorn. The traits you're also atributing to Camlorn, you seem to display all of and then some. Now look. I understand you want to help us and so on, however throwing out that the devs are leaving and blah blah blah as a last resort in a topic won't really make people on thiis forum rally to your cause anymore. As I always say on this forum, there's a way to go about things, and the way you're going about things leaves a nasty, sour, taste in my mouth. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559799/#p559799 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides @86this is literally why you're mad. Hey, why don't you ask your other iron cross friends what they think about trigger warnings? LOL don't act like people aren't watching at this point after the shit that happened yesterday :^)Anyways if you're not aware I'm literally gay and trans, you're a dime a dozen, shut up. Does it trigger you that a tranny is literally making your games?Also Cam literally believes that technology is bad but cures are good and still hasn't explained to me how the fuck that works. So I'm just going to assume he is doing nothing other than getting angry behind a computer. He has no fucking point.Listen guys, I get it. Thanks for letting me know I'm fucking different, and you're different from me. I can't see your faces and I thought the forum would be a way to normalize that. I'm just glad I have blind friends offsite because what I saw last night was really fucking revealing. I can totally see why many devs have been chased off these forums; you know, I've had to try to convince sighted devs to keep fighting because the fucking assholes who you guys sniff the assholes for in these threads (and no, not Steve, I'm talking the corporations) literally think you're fucking retards who aren't even worth having a real coding position on these games. They literally think you're fucking dogshit, and the disabled people involved are holding their head low to just have a chance to make things a little fucking better. Thats what you guys don't get in your little misery chairs.You fucking gamers literally have no fucking clue what the hell is going on with this shit. They literally want to make games retarded for you, or they want to charge millions of dollars for it. What do you think this is going to do to mainstream gaming. Don't give me this fucking shit that you're all like, baw baw baw we'll just make our own, cuz that's a fucking lie; you guys have been playing mainstream games ever since day one here. And you don't think that's going to impact literally every piece of technology you use?Fucking pathetic. You can be mad at me and assume that me telling you to not just assume everyone agrees with your disabled experience and trying to help give a larger social context to disability in general fucking triggers you. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559792/#p559792 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides @85 - fantastic post.Some things I wanted to bring up.I really think one of the things you're highlighting and one of the major concerns I have that I was trying to bring up in the OP, was how disabled people are forced into a sighted interface; which can really be seen with what you're describing, since its essentially a sighted interface (the original website) interacting with the screen reader.Screen readers have to compensate for this sighted design in some way and what you're encountering is a limitation of the screen reader to actually function in this way. It's essentially submitting itself to the sighted design - and this is why the screen reader can only do so much.The reason why I say, oh if things were socially different, more people would likely be okay with being blind, is because the visual hierarchy is imposed literally everywhere. I'm not sure how to address this in the web world tbh but in the gaming world there's a lot more room to experiment with ideas.What I think is really fascinating about audiogames.net in general is how many blind navigational topologies were just invented by blind people. What we're seeing now though is the appropriation of these technologies into the mainstream with little connection to the source. So essentially, they're taking what they learned through here and other things, appropriating it, and assuming it to be a standard, either through contracting services or through the suggestions that ablegamers is pushing.And really what I'm trying to stress here ultimately is the lack of power.Like look at what you describe with Apple, you have so much more given to you there, and this causes a preference towards Apple. But see the funny thing is Apple only gets that advantage because they privatize that code and prevent you from making choices by funneling your money to them. That is exploitation of disabled people while making things easier for them. Thats why they throw you a bone, they want your money and they want your submission to their tech policies. Control.I need to stress. One of the reasons why I'm so against the establishment is because I've interacted with them directly. When you actually put the flame to the candle, they get real fucking pissed because you're challenging their authority. Obviously not everyone involved is just some abled coffee sipper but you bet your fucking ass that people like Hamilton are, and he's the one who's in every fucking article about accessibility in the press, not you guys, not the actual disabled people who came up with this shit. This asshole literally got into this shit because he watched inspiration-porn online. I shit you fucking not. And people wonder why I come here every few months storming pissed. And yeah, by the way. The reason why I say, "hey maybe blind people might be okay with being blind if things were better" is because you LITERALLY have an imposed visual hierarchy on your entire life. Its not going to change if you gain your vision even if it was better. And that's the secret sauce - this shit impacts everyone, its just blind people notice it more. Man, if only people knew how nefarious UIs really are. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559798/#p559798 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides @56, I've actually seen blind people potrayed much better than they attempt to portray LGBT people. There's Arthur, and I think this guy's name is daredevil. Also, With regards to the whole Hetronormality, what do you think one of the biggest complaints people have with Disney movies? Back to TLU2, You're telling me, that they want to portray lesbian couples as normal, yet still they have a man-looking character? IMO that's a huge, huge, and negative stereotype right there. Why didn't they just have a fit female, instead of some kind of she hulk on steroids? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559795/#p559795 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides @86this is literally why you're mad. Hey, why don't you ask your other iron cross friends what they think about trigger warnings? LOL don't act like people aren't watching at this point after the shit that happened yesterday :^)Anyways if you're not aware I'm literally gay and trans, you're a dime a dozen, shut up. Does it trigger you that a tranny is literally making your games?Also Cam literally believes that technology is bad but cures are good and still hasn't explained to me how the fuck that works. So I'm just going to assume he is doing nothing other than getting angry behind a computer. He has no fucking point.Listen guys, I get it. Thanks for letting me know I'm fucking different, and you're different from me. I can't see your faces and I thought the forum would be a way to normalize that. I'm just glad I have blind friends offsite because what I saw last night was really fucking revealing. I can totally see why many devs have been chased off these forums; you know, I've had to try to convince sighted devs to keep fighting because the fucking assholes who you guys sniff the assholes for in these threads (and no, not Steve, I'm talking the corporations) literally think you're fucking retards who aren't even worth having a real coding position on these games. They literally think you're fucking dogshit, and the disabled people involved are holding their head low to just have a chance to make things a little fucking better. Thats what you guys don't get in your little misery chairs.You fucking gamers literally have no fucking clue what the hell is going on with this shit. They literally want to make games retarded for you, or they want to charge millions of dollars for it. What do you think this is going to do to mainstream gaming. Don't give me this fucking shit that you're all like, baw baw baw we'll just make our own, cuz that's a fucking lie; you guys have been playing mainstream games ever since day one here. And you don't think that's goingFucking pathetic. You can be mad at me and assume that me telling you to not just assume everyone agrees with your disabled experience and trying to help give a larger social context to disability in general fucking triggers you. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559792/#p559792 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides Uh, again, no it's really not. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559779/#p559779 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides Iron cross, that's exactly what this is about and *you* know it. Enough with the blatant homophobia please. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559778/#p559778 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides @84 This is why I can't take you seriously anymore. You say Camlorn was intentionally misrepresenting your posts, well you're doing the very same thing to pretty much most of us who have commented in here. It's not about gays invading video games and you know it. You just wanna get in your low class jabs wherever you can. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559765/#p559765 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides @daigonite, I understand somewhat your position, and agree that as a blind community, we often settle for so much less than what the big tech companies give us. Like, even text formattiong. Yes screen readers can be set to narrate the bold on formatting information bold off but it all comes out as a huge stream of information that just goes in one ear and out the other, as it were. I won't get into that here because no one gives a crap about that because for them formatting just doesn't exist because screen readers don't speak, or braille in most cases, it by default. That's just my pet thing to bring up about blind people not even wanting all that sight gives. And yes, I've brought it up to Apple and Microsoft; I've not brought it up to Linux folks because they have a hard enough problem getting accessibility as even a low priority. The blind people who have commented on it don't find a need for it. But formatting is used in books, articles, forum posts... and if some one uses it, they've used it for a reason. In Fanfiction, for example, it shows thoughts or telepathy and such, and if you don't know that italics was used, or where, it's harder, not impossible, to follow. But that's just me, I'm different, I know. It sucks.Now, about Apple and their dominance of smart phone usage, they've gotten there for a big reason; iOS is easy to se. You don't have to go looking for a third-party reading app, (on Android you can't even use TalkBack to read a book in Google Books, that's Google TTS reading it to you, so no way to have it spell stuff, or read in braille), no third-party mail app, just grab it, set it up, and you're off. With Android, you practically have to replace the whole OS with more accessible apps. Yeah go ahead and say I've not used Android since 2.3, sure. The last Android phone I had was a Google Pixel running 8.1, and it hasn't changed much since then. As I grow older, I'm only 26 so I shudder to think how I'll be at 35, I just want my stuff to work. That's why I'm on Windows or Mac, and use an iPhone and not an Android phone. I just want to use my devices quickly and *effectively*, not having to freaking mess around with config files, or ask the Anatad email group, because Google was oh so kind to freaking make their Eyes Free list announce only, meaning only Google can post. Assholes all of them. And for the "AI first" company, they sure as heck hasn't brought any of that Investiture to TalkBack. It's still, as the Android lovers call it, a "basic" screen reader. Meaning it's a lot like Narrator on Windows 8. Yes, it's frustrating. Yes, I'd love to run emulators easily on my phone. Yes, I'd love to have more TTS choices. But, I also have altStore, making sideloading possible, so I can play Dissidia Final Fantasy on my phone all I want. So really, even though I hate Apple more and more for locking me into their OS, I can't fault them for having such great accessibility. I mean, with iOS 14's image recognition, I'm able to play the new Game of Thrones, a tale of Crows game. Yes, it's just a sort of point and click adventure, but if this were on Android, I'd have to pay $40 per... month? Year? For a third-party screen reader to play that game, and even then it would not be as smooth an experience as iOS with Voiceover.Also, I'd love to see. I'd love to be able to confidently use Linux, Android, just everything. Programming, IT work, taking apart and putting back together a PC, learning from Youtube videos, all of my work would be so, so much easier with sight. I don't *need* blind experience. i don't *want* blind culture. If i could choose, I would have surgery in a moment's notice to gain sight. Thousands of games would be open to me. Many operating systems would be not only barely accessible, but possibly even productive in a heartbeat. I could drive! I could do anything anyone else could! I would be free! I don't care about some scientific studies that have benefitted from disability. No one would learn anything from my life or my blindness other than sheltering a person does a good bit of harm when they must face the actual world. In my view, since sight is the norm, it is the ideal. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559729/#p559729 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides your name is ironcross and you're spending your Saturday evening whining about the gays invading your video games URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559714/#p559714 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides Yeah well, I'm horrified at your behavior so go home, ya drunk. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559702/#p559702 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides I think what iron cross is trying to say is that TLU2 put to much emphasis on the gay stuff. Its a good thing I watched a play through before buying that game. Now I wished that there was no sequel at all... URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559700/#p559700 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides @72:1) Read the fucking OP. You'll find that it has nothing to do with your assumptions.2) Everyone got mad because I said I had PTSD and disagreed with trigger warnings. They were lecturing me about trigger warnings. I kept trying to explain how this is a controversial subject. Shut up.3) "Psychotic" people are literally disabled, they absolutely have a right to talk about disability shit. You're calling me psychotic because I'm pissed. Also, it's not "psychotic" for me to get angry because people are deliberately misrepresenting my opinion. Also lol at the people bitching about gay people in this thread. Genuinely fucking horrified by the behavior exhibited today. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559698/#p559698 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides @72:1) Read the fucking OP. You'll find that it has nothing to do with your assumptions.2) Everyone got mad because I said I had PTSD and disagreed with trigger warnings. They were lecturing me about trigger warnings. I kept trying to explain how this is a controversial subject. Shut up.3) "Psychotic" people are literally disabled. Also, it's not "psychotic" for me to get angry because people are deliberately misrepresenting my opinion. Also lol at the people bitching about gay people in this thread. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559698/#p559698 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides @72:1) Read the fucking OP.2) Everyone got mad because I said I had PTSD and disagreed with trigger warnings. They were lecturing me about trigger warnings. Shut the fuck up.3) "Psychotic" people are literally disabled. Also, it's not "psychotic" for me to get angry because people are deliberately misrepresenting my opinion. Also lol at the people bitching about gay people in this thread. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559698/#p559698 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides @haily_merry, ah thanks, I didn't know how a pill would help, practise makes a lot more sense.I didn't care, not in a bad way, that Ellie and Dina were dating, in fact; i'm all for it.We should embrace the future and it's totaly ok for women to date women and men to date men and those that don't think so are slowly dying out or changing their minds.I may not understand it all, neither will I try to but I can assure you I'm all for it! URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559674/#p559674 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides You may not be pissed, at least not by your definition, but it clearly bothers you enough that you feel the need to talk about it here. Let's stop veering off course please.I forget the post number, but brad, you mentioned hormones changing Abbie's voice. That actually isn't how that works at all. Unlike testosterone, estregen has absolutely 0 effect on the voice. All of the voice feminization you see from trans women has to be learned through therapy. Have a look around on youtube / google, you'll find some pretty interesting info on how it all works. I haven't listened to any of the cut seens from TLU 2, but I know and have spoken to a few trans women with pretty fucking high pitched voices, so it's certainly possible to have a voice that sounds totally authentic. I'm still working on that.I'll probably steer clear of the points made in the OP because quite honestly most of it is way over my head, but this is a very interesting discussion. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559665/#p559665 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides Am not pissed off about anything... but if that helps you sleep at night then knock yourself out... Bro. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559653/#p559653 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides
Re: pissed off about accessibility guides Again, they can be, but art imitates life. White men calling out non-hetero couples in bigoted fashion is so common that if it had been excluded, there'd be a valid criticism that the game wasn't really representing the truth of things very well.And you know how there have been literally tens of thousands of silly trashy happily-ever-after stories where prince charming meets or rescues damsel in distress and they ride off into the sunset? Those stories provide a sort of idealized pipe dream of what a lot of people - women especially, of a certain time period - seemed to want, both because they were told that this was what they should want and because society was sort of built that way. Media adopted that narrative. So then when you have a game where there's a lesbian couple that feels the need to not be quiet about it, and there are white male bigots out there and the lesbians call them out for what they are? Yeah, guess what? It's the same fucking thing, happening a couple hundred years later. Obviously, that is probably not the straight-up aim of the game - I doubt that its target audience is non-heterosexual women primarily - but the game is trying to include those people by representing the reality that many of them deal with in a way which is at least nominally true to life.the fact that you're getting pissed about it just proves that they hit the nail on the head, bro. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/559651/#p559651 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
