subject:"Re\: \[SlimDevices\: Audiophiles\] What is the best top end player now \?"


arnyk wrote: 
 Other than for a very few pathological speakers, 12 guage zip cord in
 reasonable lengths gives ideal, non-improvable performence.
 
 
 

I do not believe that my speakers are among the pathological, so I'm
going to enjoy second guessing myself.


arnyk wrote: 
 
 
 If you can't provide a coherent explanation of your beliefs that is
 consistent with the laws of physics, then there is little but blind
 faith to explain your situation.
 

I do not associate my beliefs as being inconsistent with laws of
physics.


arnyk wrote: 
 
 
 
 Getting spendy at the local Rat Shack store or high end audio emporium
 is no way comparable with the effort required to obtain a basic or
 advanced degree in EE.  It's really pretty insulting to suggest such a
 thing.
 
 

Yeah, that was my suggestion.  Exactly.  I continue to be baffled by
your negativity.  Maybe start respecting forum members in the same way
that you wish to be respected?  You aren't the only one with family and
friends holding advanced degrees.  If that should matter.


arnyk wrote: 
 
 
 
 Hopefully you won't, because IMO its a waste of your time under the
 conditions.

Such a great attitude.  Appreciated!  You've gotta a nice little
situation there where you tell me I can't be right and that I can never
show that perhaps I am.  If you adopted a new approach, then you could
send out an email or two and help me make some contacts in my area.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?

2015-07-01 Thread SBGK


Archimago wrote: 
 Bell wire? What is that 20AWG or thinner? I did say a decent length of
 copper did I not as speaker cables?
 
 As for golden ears, you, like some others seem to claim/insist you have
 them (based on what you claim to hear on your blog with OS
 optimizations)... Is this self-proclamation? Or do
 friends/family/wife/kids agree?

just relating my experience, think that's allowed on this forum.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?


Julf wrote: 
 I think we all are eagerly waiting for you to explain what EE principles
 explain audible differences.
 

Would it matter?  If I cite various links, then you know what will
happen.  We could hold a conference call with a bunch of Phds who
actually design cables and there would nothing said which a few of you
wouldn't declare marketing or otherwise BS.

The hardcore self-proclaimed audiophile objectivists come across as
bitter and angry.  Hopefully, we can rise above that here.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?

2015-07-01 Thread Julf


jh901 wrote: 
 Would it matter?  If I cite various links, then you know what will
 happen.  We could hold a conference call with a bunch of Phds who
 actually design cables and there would nothing said which a few of you
 wouldn't declare marketing or otherwise BS.

Some of us have Phds in stuff like EE and transmission theory. 

Would you know the difference between marketing BS and actual
engineering theory?

Anyway, you claimed , I am simply asking for an explanation based in EE
principles to explain audible differences. You seem to think that the
difference between actual scientific evidence and marketing material is
a question of opinion/viewpoint. What would be *your* criteria for
telling one from the other?

 The hardcore self-proclaimed audiophile objectivists come across as
 bitter and angry.

Have you ever stopped to think why that might be?



To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people - Paul W Klipsch, 1953

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?


SBGK wrote: 
 In the early days I tried bell wire, 1.5 mm and 2.5 mm 2 core and earth
 cable as speaker cable, they all sounded different. Guess I must have
 golden ears.

Bell wire has enough series resistance to actually make some speakers
sound different.

The listning evaluations were probably subject to one or more of the
following 5 invalidating influences:

(1) Audiophile Sighted Casual Evaluations are invalid because they are
not tests. That is, they do not involve comparison to a fixed, reliable
standard.

(2) Audiophile Sighted Casual Evaluations are invalid because they
involve excessively long switchover times, which makes them highly
susceptible to false negatives because they desensitize the listeners.

(3) Audiophile Sighted Casual Evaluations are invalid because the do not
involve proper level matching, which makes them highly susceptible to
false positives because people report the level mismatches as sonic
differences.

(4) Audiophile Sighted Casual Evaluations are invalid because they do
not involve listening to the identical same piece of music or drama
within a few milliseconds, creating false positives because people
report the mismatched music as sonic differences in the equipment.

(5) Audiophile Sighted Casual Evaluations are not admissible because
they constantly reveal the true identity of the UUTs to the listener,
creating false positives because people report their prejudices and
preconceived notions as sonic properties of the equipment



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?

2015-07-01 Thread SBGK


Archimago wrote: 
 Good luck with the zip cords...
 
 Bottom line is that physics predicts that the demands of accurate
 transmission of audio from 20Hz-20kHz in -speaker cables- is a rather
 low standard that can be fulfilled more than easily by a decent length
 of copper!
 
 THE CLAIM OF AUDIBLE DIFFERENCE (IE. THAT SOMEHOW SOMETHING IS BEING
 CHANGED IN THAT TRANSMISSION FROM 20HZ-20KHZ) BECAUSE OF EXOTIC
 MATERIALS/DIELECTRICS, ETC. THAT IS SOMEHOW \BETTER\ OR MORE \TRUE\
 TO THE SIGNAL IS AKIN TO DECLARING THAT THESE LAWS OF PHYSICS ARE BEING
 VIOLATED.
 
 Since cable companies are claiming that they have found some special
 secret sauce that makes their cables better (rather than purposely
 distorting the signal), I think the onus is on them to show just what is
 going on that the result is at least different from what the laws of
 physics predicts! So far, I have yet to see any evidence of an actual
 change beyond human testimony.
 
 Remember, this is audio frequency... We're not talking MHz, GHz
 transmissions here where gauge, material, dielectrics, geometry could
 truly be essential elements to successful signal integrity... And where
 concepts like jitter truly could be a meaningful problem!

In the early days I tried bell wire, 1.5 mm and 2.5 mm 2 core and earth
cable as speaker cable, they all sounded different. Guess I must have
golden ears.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?

2015-07-01 Thread cliveb


jh901 wrote: 
 I'm certainly not of the view that known science must be violated in
 order for it to be true that there are audible differences between
 speakers connected to a power amp with 12g OFC zip cord versus specialty
 cable.
The way you make this statement it sounds as if you think you have have
a choice over whether you consider the known laws of nature to be
violated if there is an audible difference. You have no such choice. The
laws of nature apply to everyone, regardless of their willingness to
submit to them.

That said, you are in luck. The known laws of nature do indeed allow for
there to be an audible difference between different speaker cables. Bear
in mind, however, that the known science that explains this audible
difference isn't part of physics. It's part of psychology.

jh901 wrote: 
 I don't know how skin effect comes into play, for example.
It doesn't at audio frequencies.

jh901 wrote: 
 I'm not one to ascribe to magic or blind faith, but I recognize that I'm
 human.  I'm also an audiophile, but that doesn't mean that I'm among
 those who are desperate to believe just about anything in order to
 perceive an upgrade in sound quality.
Since you have admitted that you are human, you're half way to
understanding why different speaker cables sound different to you. To
complete the journey, all you need to do is expand your search for an
explanation beyond the boundaries of audio engineering and consider the
known science that deals with how human perception is influenced by all
manner of extraneous factors.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?


I'm certainly not of the view that known science must be violated in
order for it to be true that there are audible differences between
speakers connected to a power amp with 12g OFC zip cord versus specialty
cable.  I don't know how skin effect comes into play, for example.  I'm
not one to ascribe to magic or blind faith, but I recognize that I'm
human.  I'm also an audiophile, but that doesn't mean that I'm among
those who are desperate to believe just about anything in order to
perceive an upgrade in sound quality.

I will not be earning a Phd in EE in this lifetime, but at the same time
at least I'm making an effort.  I am running 12g OFC zip cord from Radio
Shack and I'll be doing so for several weeks.  Hopefully, I'll be able
to engage in a proper blinded ABX at some point.



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__Acoustic treatment: DIY Cylinder Bass traps | Rule of Thirds for
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?

2015-07-01 Thread Archimago


SBGK wrote: 
 just relating my experience, think that's allowed on this forum.

Of course. However it's important to remember that objective testing
will show inadequacy of poor quality wires with high resistance. No
magic there.

While I can appreciate your hearing acuity to tell the difference
between bell wire and something better, there is no need to invoke
golden earism... It's certainly a different kind of claim than the one
we're debating about here like audibility of 12AWG vs. expensive
exotics...



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?

2015-07-01 Thread Archimago

jh901 wrote:
Would it matter? If I cite various links, then you know what will
happen. We could hold a conference call with a bunch of Phds who
actually design cables and there would nothing said which a few of you
wouldn't declare marketing or otherwise BS.

The hardcore self-proclaimed audiophile objectivists come across as
bitter and angry. Hopefully, we can rise above that here.

Actually, now that we're 60 pages deep in this discussion which started
with best top end player, maybe you can start a new thread with what
you consider as the BEST, most CONVINCING links to articles that report
the importance of cables on sound?

This way, we can all have a look at them and either agree or critique.
Furthermore, it may help reduce personal insults and name-calling.
Indeed there is no need to get angry or bitter.

Going back to the previous suggestion about getting an (objectivist)
audiophile friend to come over to help with some testing rather than
bothering a PhD candidate, I think you will realize -very quickly- (like
after 3 or 4 cable switches) how there's no significant difference
assuming your friend is honest and take precaution to make sure you
can't see what's happening behind the scene. After that, go for a
beer... As I mentioned before, I've done this with subjectivist friends
and they have always changed their tune; usually having sold off all
the expensive cable stuff within a year :-).

You see, we can all get -pedantic -about whether your test fully meets
criteria for ABX, DBT, whatever test you choose... But so what? If you
really want to make a splash, go practice, then 'win $1,000,000 from the
Amazing Randi'
(http://gizmodo.com/305549/james-randi-offers-1-million-if-audiophiles-can-prove-7250-speaker-cables-are-better).
Then we'll all shut up and proclaim that we knew you before you became
universally acclaimed as a true Golden Ear with the cash to prove it!

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audiophile blog.

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?

2015-07-01 Thread cliveb


jh901 wrote: 
 I also disagree, at this time, that I'm a victim of psychological
 effect.
But earlier on you admitted that you are human. To deny that you are
susceptible to your perceptions being influenced by outside factors, you
are declaring yourself to be some kind of freak. Victim is totally the
wrong word to use here - we are ALL susceptible to these factors, even
when we know what they are. You can't avoid them - it's basic human
nature.

To a certain extent it isn't important why you perceive specialist
speaker cables to sound better than ordinary ones. They do to you, and
so they are a valid component in your system. Just because they sound
better because of your psychological response rather than due to any
change in the sound field generated isn't really important. What you
hear is your response to all the stimuli available to you.

But please don't try to suggest that specialist speaker cables sound
better for some engineering reason. THAT is the false claim made by far
too many audiophiles that some of us here will continue to challenge
whenever it is proposed.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?

2015-07-01 Thread SBGK


arnyk wrote: 
 Yes.
 
 
 
 One little problem. There is no such thing as ...a bunch of PhDs (in
 electrical engineering) that actually design cables.
 
 Getting a PhD in EE or a related area has a prerequisite - learning
 enough about EE to understand why audiophile cables are a myth.
 
 Prove me wrong - give us a link to a PhD Thesis in EE from an accredited
 University supporting the idea that audiophile cables have any solid
 technology behind them.
 
 
 
 I don't know who you are talking about. However, if we changed topics to
 self-proclaimed audiophile subjectivists who are deflecting and avoiding
 relevant questions that they can't answer and making it up as they go
 along, a lot of people would know exactly what is being discussed. ;-)

what is it about phds ?

Here is one, first class honours and his own cable company, what's not
to like.

http://www.custom-hifi-cables.co.uk/about-us



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?


jh901 wrote: 
 Would it matter? 
 

Yes.

 
 If I cite various links, then you know what will happen.  We could hold
 a conference call with a bunch of Phds who actually design cables and
 there would nothing said which a few of you wouldn't declare marketing
 or otherwise BS.
 

One little problem. There is no such thing as ...a bunch of PhDs (in
electrical engineering) that actually design cables.

Getting a PhD in EE or a related area has a prerequisite - learning
enough about EE to understand why audiophile cables are a myth.

Prove me wrong - give us a link to a PhD Thesis in EE from an accredited
University supporting the idea that audiophile cables have any solid
technology behind them.

 
 The hardcore self-proclaimed audiophile objectivists come across as
 bitter and angry.  Hopefully, we can rise above that here.

I don't know who you are talking about. However, if we changed topics to
self-proclaimed audiophile subjectivists who are deflecting and avoiding
relevant questions that they can't answer and making it up as they go
along, a lot of people would know exactly what is being discussed. ;-)



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?


jh901 wrote: 
 As of now, I disagree with the few of you who claim that there are no EE
 principles which explain audible differences.  I also disagree, at this
 time, that I'm a victim of psychological effect.

What is the rational basis of your disagreement?



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?


cliveb wrote: 
 
 
 That said, you are in luck. The known laws of nature do indeed allow for
 there to be an audible difference between different speaker cables. Bear
 in mind, however, that the known science that explains this audible
 difference isn't part of physics. It's part of psychology.
 
 

As of now, I disagree with the few of you who claim that there are no EE
principles which explain audible differences.  I also disagree, at this
time, that I'm a victim of psychological effect.



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__Acoustic treatment: DIY Cylinder Bass traps | Rule of Thirds for
speaker  sweet spot position
__Speaker Cables: Analysis Plus Big Silver Oval | Shunyata Venom series
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?


jh901 wrote: 
 I'm certainly not of the view that known science must be violated in
 order for it to be true that there are audible differences between
 speakers connected to a power amp with 12g OFC zip cord versus specialty
 cable.  
 

Other than for a very few pathological speakers, 12 guage zip cord in
reasonable lengths gives ideal, non-improvable performence.

 
 I don't know how skin effect comes into play, for example. 
 

I do know how skin effect comes into play, and the general answer is not
so much.

 
 I'm not one to ascribe to magic or blind faith, 
 

If you can't provide a coherent explanation of your beliefs that is
consistent with the laws of physics, then there is little but blind
faith to explain your situation.

 
 but I recognize that I'm human. 
 

Which in turn puts you under the influence of the 5 problems with casual
sighted audiophile evaluations that I've been listing out.

 
 I'm also an audiophile, but that doesn't mean that I'm among those who
 are desperate to believe just about anything in order to perceive an
 upgrade in sound quality.
 

Then, you aren't human.

 
 I will not be earning a Phd in EE in this lifetime, but at the same time
 at least I'm making an effort.
 

Getting spendy at the local Rat Shack store or high end audio emporium
is no way comparable with the effort required to obtain a basic or
advanced degree in EE.  It's really pretty insulting to suggest such a
thing.


 
 I am running 12g OFC zip cord from Radio Shack and I'll be doing so for
 several weeks.  Hopefully, I'll be able to engage in a proper blinded
 ABX at some point.

Hopefully you won't, because IMO its a waste of your time under the
conditions.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?

2015-07-01 Thread Julf


jh901 wrote: 
 Pseudoscience is dangerous, but declaring science as if you are GOD is
 also wrong.

The difference is that science not only provides the evidence, and
allows it to be questioned, but actually provides the tools to do it
(and encourages it). 

We go back to Theory of Knowledge 101: How do I know what I know?



To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people - Paul W Klipsch, 1953

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?


jh901 wrote: 
 I intend to avoid your pitfalls, so it doesn't make sense that you have
 such passion for your faith.
 

There are no such pitfalls, and there is no such faith.

I'm following Conventional Science (the Science  that helped us send men
into space and survive and even thrive).

The guys who run the Magic Cable companies are the guys who flunked
their EE courses or never took them in the first place. They were not
the class stars. Take Noel Lee, for example.

 
 Pseudoscience is dangerous, but declaring science as if you are GOD is
 also wrong.
 

Who is declaring science as if they are God?  You are making the
accusation, now back it up!  I'm am merely a messenger of Science. Don't
shoot me.

 
 None of you can explain how the laws of physics are being violated.

I already have, but the issues and arguments went flying high!  I'm
dealing with people who take the pseudoscience of the magic wire
industry as if they were revealed truth, not the false claims and
distortions of the truth that they are.

The problem is one of denial and lack of proper education. The
explanation of the effect of wavelength on how audio signals flow
through cables on the proper way to analyze cables was an explanation of
the laws of physics are being violated by the claims of the magic wire
industry. It was stated the simplest way I can think of. However, it
still takes an understanding of High School Physics to get it.

No true believer in magic wires will ever get it because it violates
their religious beliefs.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?


Julf wrote: 
 
 
 Anyway, you claimed , I am simply asking for an explanation based in EE
 principles to explain audible differences. You seem to think that the
 difference between actual scientific evidence and marketing material is
 a question of opinion/viewpoint. What would be *your* criteria for
 telling one from the other?
 

My interest in this topic is sincere.  Since I can't explain why there
is an audible difference in my past experiences, then it seems like a
good idea to seek out an answer.  The first step will be to participate
in a proper ABX.  Depending on the result, there will be further
examination.




Julf wrote: 
 
 
 Have you ever stopped to think why that might be?

No comment.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?

2015-07-01 Thread induna


Archimago wrote: 
 Good luck with the zip cords...
 
 
 THE CLAIM OF AUDIBLE DIFFERENCE (IE. THAT SOMEHOW SOMETHING IS BEING
 CHANGED IN THAT TRANSMISSION FROM 20HZ-20KHZ) BECAUSE OF EXOTIC
 MATERIALS/DIELECTRICS, ETC. THAT IS SOMEHOW \BETTER\ OR MORE \TRUE\
 TO THE SIGNAL IS AKIN TO DECLARING THAT THESE LAWS OF PHYSICS ARE BEING
 VIOLATED.
 
 

I just wanted to quote this again because it really is the key. The
second part of the sentence is the important one. Undoubtably cables can
be (mis)designed to sound different. Some people may even perceive that
difference as better for various reasons, perhaps not the least of which
is that they have spent  significant amount of money on them and don't
wish to feel like a rube. However, conflating that perceived difference
with greater accuracy or musical truth is false within the current
understanding of physical laws. Unless someone can provide a testable
theory that leads to convincing and repeatable experimental results that
explain why a certain speaker cable design is audibly different that 12
gauge zip cord in reasonable lengths to a human listener it is perfectly
correct to say that all such claims of audible superiority are a priori
false.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?


Michanders are first class!  I sent my cables out Monday and Analysis
Plus called today to confirm that they'll be shipping them back so that
I might get them before the holiday.  Great service.

Meantime, I've added -Monk's Dream- and -Tijuana Moods- (Mingus) to my
jazz collection.  ORG has released these two with original mastering
work and the result is fantastic.

As to the original thread topic, well, I wouldn't know how to get a
productive discussion going.  I did try.  The market for audiophile
servers is heating up and with any luck the competition will result in
affordable excellence in no time.  Of course, that leads us into a DAC
discussion of the top units today.  Nagra, for example, worked with
Andreas Koch in the somewhat recent past.  I wonder how theirs will
compare to the hot products from Lampizator?



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?

2015-06-30 Thread Archimago


jh901 wrote: 
 I intend to avoid your pitfalls, so it doesn't make sense that you have
 such passion for your faith.
 
 
 
 
 Pseudoscience is dangerous, but declaring science as if you are GOD is
 also wrong.
 
 None of you can explain how the laws of physics are being violated.

Good luck with the zip cords...

Bottom line is that physics predicts that the demands of accurate
transmission of audio from 20Hz-20kHz in -speaker cables- is a rather
low standard that can be fulfilled more than easily by a decent length
of copper!

THE CLAIM OF AUDIBLE DIFFERENCE (IE. THAT SOMEHOW SOMETHING IS BEING
CHANGED IN THAT TRANSMISSION FROM 20HZ-20KHZ) BECAUSE OF EXOTIC
MATERIALS/DIELECTRICS, ETC. THAT IS SOMEHOW \BETTER\ OR MORE \TRUE\
TO THE SIGNAL IS AKIN TO DECLARING THAT THESE LAWS OF PHYSICS ARE BEING
VIOLATED.

Since cable companies are claiming that they have found some special
secret sauce that makes their cables better (rather than purposely
distorting the signal), I think the onus is on them to show just what is
going on that the result is at least different from what the laws of
physics predicts! So far, I have yet to see any evidence of an actual
change beyond human testimony.

Remember, this is audio frequency... We're not talking MHz, GHz
transmissions here where gauge, material, dielectrics, geometry could
truly be essential elements to successful signal integrity... And where
concepts like jitter truly could be a meaningful problem!



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?

2015-06-29 Thread jh901


arnyk wrote: 
 Exactly.  The same will be true for any suite of listening tests that
 avoids the traditional pitfalls of casual sighted audiophile evaluations
 which are:
 
 

I intend to avoid your pitfalls, so it doesn't make sense that you have
such passion for your faith.


arnyk wrote: 
 
 
 It has long been known that it is impossible to change the minds of True
 Believers in pseudoscience.  They all live in logic-tight boxes, so the
 traditional tools like facts, Science, and reason don't work with them.

Pseudoscience is dangerous, but declaring science as if you are GOD is
also wrong.

None of you can explain how the laws of physics are being violated.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?

2015-06-29 Thread arnyk


jh901 wrote: 
 What are these laws of physics?
 

The ones you learn as part of a regular university education in
Engineering, Physics, etc.

 
 These random guessing results do not exist though, right?
 

The fact that audiophiles often make purchase judgments based on random
guessing is often concealed from them by the well-known illusions
fostered by the anti-scientific listening evaluations that they often
seem to base their ideas on.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?

2015-06-29 Thread ralphpnj


jh901 wrote: 
 What are these laws of physics?

All those annoying little things like electrical current, voltage,
resistance, impedance and capacitance in wire. Ohm's Law, etc.

But I'm not trying to knock you here since it is quite clear that you
are making a very big effort to be very accommodating and understanding.
Unfortunately I do know enough about to set up a proper DBT to be
helpful.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?

2015-06-29 Thread ralphpnj


jh901 wrote: 
 None of you can explain how the laws of physics are being violated.

That's exactly the point: one CANNOT violate the laws of physics which
is any and all properly set up and properly conducted DBTs involving
audio speaker wire always yield null results, i.e. random guessing,. The
laws of physics correctly predict that this will be the case, i.e. that
any speaker wire which is capable of properly transmitting the
electrical signal from the amp to speakers, e.g. the wire is the correct
gauge for the length of run, and that the wires will sound the same.

After reading and rereading many of the posts made on this section of
the forum over the past few weeks I see a particular logical fallacy
being repeated over and over and it goes something like this:

1) There are two different speak wires that after careful sighted
evaluations and listening tests appear to sound different, even though
all the laws of physics clearly state that this should not be the case.

2) The same two speaker wires are evaluated using a properly set up and
properly conducted double blind test or series of tests and these all
yield the same null results, i.e. random guessing, which is exactly what
one would and should expect since any other result would mean that the
laws of physics are somehow being violated.

3) (Now here is the logical fallacy) Therefore something MUST be wrong
with the properly set up and properly conducted double blind test or
series of tests and the wires are somehow violating the laws of physics
and we just can't figure out how those are being violated.

NEWS FLASH - the laws of physics are not being violated and there is
nothing wrong with the DBTs. The error rests clearly with the sighted
evaluations and listening tests and not the other way around.

Add to the above the fact that anyone with a financial interest in
proving that one speaker wire sounds better than another speaker wire
(e.g. speaker wire manufacturers, professional audio reviewers (I put
professional in quotes since calling them professional would be a grave
insult to all real professionals) and audiophiles who opened their
wallets and purchased audiophile speaker wire) cannot and should not be
trusted not to lie or, at the very least, be highly biased.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?

2015-06-29 Thread jh901


ralphpnj wrote: 
 
 
 1) There are two different speak wires that after careful sighted
 evaluations and listening tests appear to sound different, even though
 all the laws of physics clearly state that this should not be the case.
 
 

What are these laws of physics?


ralphpnj wrote: 
 
 
 2) The same two speaker wires are evaluated using a properly set up and
 properly conducted double blind test or series of tests and these all
 yield the same null results, i.e. random guessing, which is exactly what
 one would and should expect since any other result would mean that the
 laws of physics are somehow being violated.
 
 

These random guessing results do not exist though, right?


ralphpnj wrote: 
 
 NEWS FLASH - the laws of physics are not being violated and there is
 nothing wrong with the DBTs. The error rests clearly with the sighted
 evaluations and listening tests and not the other way around.
 
 

The testing results which you wish to exist do not and any testing which
defies your religious belief is invalid for any number of excuses.


ralphpnj wrote: 
 
 Add to the above the fact that anyone with a financial interest in
 proving that one speaker wire sounds better than another speaker wire
 (e.g. speaker wire manufacturers, professional audio reviewers (I put
 professional in quotes since calling them professional would be a grave
 insult to all real professionals) and audiophiles who opened their
 wallets and purchased audiophile speaker wire) cannot and should not be
 trusted not to lie or, at the very least, be highly biased.

Ah, yes, exactly!  Haha.

I'd kindly ask you to assist with the testing I hope to engage in.  I
would like to meet the highest standard reasonably possible.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?

2015-06-29 Thread Julf


jh901 wrote: 
 What are these laws of physics?

'UC Irvine Department of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science:
Understanding the Transmission Line Theory'
(http://www.ece.uci.edu/docs/hspice/hspice_2001_2-269.html)



To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people - Paul W Klipsch, 1953

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?

2015-06-29 Thread jh901


ralphpnj wrote: 
 
 
 But I'm not trying to knock you here since it is quite clear that you
 are making a very big effort to be very accommodating and understanding.
 Unfortunately I do know enough about to set up a proper DBT to be
 helpful.

Noted.  Appreciated.

Any progress made as to the exact specifics of the testing will be
posted here.  I'll be looking for rational feedback and suggestions.  If
this goes through, then I want everyone to be as confident in the
process as possible.


In related news, I will be without my Analysis Plus Big Silver Oval
cables for a few weeks.  I never did like the bananas on the speaker
end, so I'm having them terminated with spades.  My previous cables will
be used until I pick up some zip cord.  I'm not enjoying the old cables,
so I'm actually looking forward to a revelatory upgrade.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?

2015-06-29 Thread Gandhi


jh901 wrote: 
 Anyhow, Analysis Plus is HQ'd within 1.5 hours of GPWoods.  Shouldn't it
 be easy for you to discredit their engineers along with their claims?

After checking their website, I really can't think of how to discredit
them more than they have already done themselves.



Best Regards,
Gandhi

not often enough well recorded and mastered cds *|* dbpoweramp with
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?

2015-06-29 Thread arnyk


jh901 wrote: 
 If there is a zero-probability of audible differences, then ABX results
 will be nothing more than random guesswork.
 

Exactly.  The same will be true for any suite of listening tests that
avoids the traditional pitfalls of casual sighted audiophile evaluations
which are:

(1) Audiophile Sighted Casual Evaluations are not admissible because
they are not tests. That is, they do not involve comparison to a fixed,
reliable standard.

(2) Audiophile Sighted Casual Evaluations are not admissible because
they involve excessively long switchover times, which makes them highly
susceptible to false negatives because they desensitize the listeners.

(3) Audiophile Sighted Casual Evaluations are not admissible because the
do not involve proper level matching, which makes them highly
susceptible to false positives because people report the level
mismatches as sonic differences.

(4) Audiophile Sighted Casual Evaluations are not admissible because
they do not involve listening to the identical same piece of music or
drama within a few milliseconds, creating false positives because people
report the mismatched music as sonic differences in the equipment.

(5) Audiophile Sighted Casual Evaluations are not admissible because
they constantly reveal the true identity of the UUTs to the listener,
creating false positives because people report their prejudices and
preconceived notions as sonic properties of the equipment


 
 Anyhow, Analysis Plus is HQ'd within 1.5 hours of GPWoods.  Shouldn't it
 be easy for you to discredit their engineers along with their claims?

It has long been known that it is impossible to change the minds of True
Believers in pseudoscience.  They all live in logic-tight boxes, so the
traditional tools like facts, Science, and reason don't work with them.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?

2015-06-28 Thread ralphpnj


Julf wrote: 
 As many of the heated arguments seem to stem from loose terminology, I
 think it is good to strive towards using precise terms. A test like this
 only fails if it doesn't provide any information at all - it is so badly
 designed or executed that the results are totally inconclusive. What you
 are talking about is failing to disprove the null hypothesis. 
 
 I think we also need to be clear about the purpose of the test and the
 possible results. Even in the best of cases, all it will do is providing
 a single data point. It won't prove anything, or establish the
 reality of anything - it will be another small piece of evidence. For
 a more general conclusion, approaching proof of anything, the test
 results need to be independently replicated, under controlled
 conditions, and enough times to provide real statistical relevance.

What he said, in other words +1



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?

2015-06-28 Thread Julf


jkeny wrote: 
 Sorry, loose terminology - what I mean is fail to be able to
 differentiate between the two devices/samples - getting a null result or
 a result statistically close to random guessing.

As many of the heated arguments seem to stem from loose terminology, I
think it is good to strive towards using precise terms. A test like this
only fails if it doesn't provide any information at all - it is so badly
designed or executed that the results are totally inconclusive. What you
are talking about is failing to disprove the null hypothesis. 

I think we also need to be clear about the purpose of the test and the
possible results. Even in the best of cases, all it will do is providing
a single data point. It won't prove anything, or establish the
reality of anything - it will be another small piece of evidence. For
a more general conclusion, approaching proof of anything, the test
results need to be independently replicated, under controlled
conditions, and enough times to provide real statistical relevance.



To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people - Paul W Klipsch, 1953

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?

2015-06-28 Thread arnyk


jh901 wrote: 
 Sure would be interesting if any number of bickering audiophiles lived
 near one another!  Well, southwest PA isn't what I'd call audiophile
 country, but we do have about the hottest new food scene in the US
 (subjectively speaking).  Perhaps we'll find a well regarded member who
 does live nearby?!
 

It is probably no coincidence that the two audiophile groups that may
have sucessfully done more interesting DBTs were SMWTMS (located in
Southeastern Michigan - Drtroit area) and The Audiophile Society of
Westchester County , New York. 

 
 I might make it over to Radio Shack tomorrow.  My interest has been
 piqued.  I've probably upgraded parts of my system 20 times in the past,
 oh, five years.  Maybe more.  I enjoy the improvements I've experienced
 each and every time, yet I rarely give much thought to the specific
 engineering principles which deliver these improvements.  I am a natural
 skeptic, but I'm simply not inclined to doubt my sensory perceptions
 (hearing, in this case) to what I believe to be an irrational degree. 
 That said, I can appreciate some aspects of the anti-establishment
 sentiment and I am generally aware of how our emotional state can fool
 us.

This discussion is unfortunately headed into the usual abyss of
frustration and failure that curses most initial audiophile DBTs because
the listening tests that form the celebrated cause are inherently
futile. They are designed to be frustrating. Their outcome is set by the
laws of physics, and will be random guessing,  It relates to audio
cables which are bound and determined by he laws of physics to produce
null results - random guessing.  

The only way to do an audio cable listening test that is both valid as a
test and produces positive results would be to involve audio cables that
are stupid bad. Something like comparing two pairs of 8' speaker cables,
one 12 gauge and the other 24 gauge and also using some speakers with
relatively low (4 ohms) and varied impedance curves.

Since nobody has a quick-switching facility, the listening test will be
accomplished by cable swapping which further reduces the sensitivity of
the listeners. Between their inexperience and the lengthy switch over
times, even if there was a difference to hear, they wouldn't hear it.

Between inexperience with doing listening tests that are actually
listening tests and therefore put a premium on listener training, and
doing listening tests that are by design destined to produce
random-guessing type results, it is easy to predict that a bad time will
be had by all.

This is a classic case of the blind leading the blind, and by blind I
mean unknowing and inexperienced.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?

2015-06-28 Thread Archimago


jh901 wrote: 
 Sure would be interesting if any number of bickering audiophiles lived
 near one another!  Well, southwest PA isn't what I'd call audiophile
 country, but we do have about the hottest new food scene in the US
 (subjectively speaking).  Perhaps we'll find a well regarded member who
 does live nearby?!
 
 I might make it over to Radio Shack tomorrow.  My interest has been
 piqued.  I've probably upgraded parts of my system 20 times in the past,
 oh, five years.  Maybe more.  I enjoy the improvements I've experienced
 each and every time, yet I rarely give much thought to the specific
 engineering principles which deliver these improvements.  I am a natural
 skeptic, but I'm simply not inclined to doubt my sensory perceptions
 (hearing, in this case) to what I believe to be an irrational degree. 
 That said, I can appreciate some aspects of the anti-establishment
 sentiment and I am generally aware of how our emotional state can fool
 us.

Sounds good. You give it a good try. Over the years I've certainly done
things I thought made a huge difference until I switched back or got
myself to evaluate in an unsighted manner.  Maybe set it up so a
friend/wife/kid can randomly plug in one of the 2 cables unsighted after
you spend some time with the zip cord vs. Analysis Plus.

For speaker cables, although 14G is likely more than adequate for short
lengths, I'd see about getting a roll of 12G just in case one day you
want to make long runs. (This is what I did for 30' lengths to reach my
surround speakers.)

Have fun and let us know how it goes!



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?


arnyk wrote: 
 
 
 Between inexperience with doing listening tests that are actually
 listening tests and therefore put a premium on listener training, and
 doing listening tests that are by design destined to produce
 random-guessing type results, it is easy to predict that a bad time will
 be had by all.
 
 This is a classic case of the blind leading the blind, and by blind I
 mean unknowing and inexperienced.

You aren't helping.  Is there any chance that you could be convinced to
provide support which you believe will increase the chance that a good
time will be had by all?



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?


Archimago wrote: 
 
 For speaker cables, although 14G is likely more than adequate for short
 lengths, I'd see about getting a roll of 12G just in case one day you
 want to make long runs. (This is what I did for 30' lengths to reach my
 surround speakers.)
 
 Have fun and let us know how it goes!

Thanks!  I'll pick up some 12G.  Is anyone going to protest that the
conductor in my Analysis Plus is 9G?  My speakers are listed below, so
if there are any specs which create some doubts, then I'd rather find
out now.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?

2015-06-28 Thread Wombat


jh901 wrote: 
 Thanks!  I'll pick up some 12G.  Is anyone going to protest that the
 conductor in my Analysis Plus is 9G?  My speakers are listed below, so
 if there are any specs which create some doubts, then I'd rather find
 out now.
I have no exact impedance plots but the Diablo should have no surprise
there. A simple 2-way with single mid-bass and Focal chassis does not
have low dips in impedance.



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monoblocks - Sommer SPK240 - self-made speakers

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?


Now that I think about it, I still have my Zu Audio Wax cables, which
have a copper conductor.  I'm not sure what gauge or if there are any
specs which would create a problem.  Anyhow, I've made the switch.  I'd
intended to do so anyhow after several months with the Analysis Plus.

I will eventually get some experience with zip cord once there is some
progress on the ABX effort.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?

2015-06-28 Thread Archimago


jh901 wrote: 
 Now that I think about it, I still have my Zu Audio Wax cables, which
 have a copper conductor.  I'm not sure what gauge or if there are any
 specs which would create a problem.  Anyhow, I've made the switch.  I'd
 intended to do so anyhow after several months with the Analysis Plus.
 
 I will eventually get some experience with zip cord once there is some
 progress on the ABX effort.

Couldn't find info on these Wax cables. What are they like?



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?

2015-06-28 Thread Archimago


jh901 wrote: 
 Noted.  Appreciated.  Here comes the credit card.  My first gear
 purchase in about 10 months.

BTW. 2x12G runs is 9G so if you have biwire inputs on the Diablo, you
could do this and twist the 2 wires on the amp side together... You can
have fun braiding the cables together as well. I remember back in the
day doing all kinds of stuff with DIY Cat-5 speakers cables :-).

Anyhow, have enjoy!



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?


Wombat wrote: 
 I have no exact impedance plots but the Diablo should have no surprise
 there. A simple 2-way with single mid-bass and Focal chassis does not
 have low dips in impedance.

Noted.  Appreciated.  Here comes the credit card.  My first gear
purchase in about 10 months.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?

2015-06-28 Thread arnyk


jh901 wrote: 
 You aren't helping.  
 

I'm helping the way one  helps people who are paddling their canoe over
a waterfall.

 
 Is there any chance that you could be convinced to provide support which
 you believe will increase the chance that a good time will be had by
 all?

best support I can give you: Do listening tests that involve actual
audible differences, or at least have some non-zero probability of
involving audible differences.

The first DBTs involving audio cables that I am aware of were done in
the late 1970s or early 1980s by Dr. Larry Greenhill (Stereophile
Reviewer) and The Audiophile Society Of Westchester County NY. 

I know of no positive results then, or any cable DBT since.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?

2015-06-28 Thread arnyk


Archimago wrote: 
 Couldn't find info on these Wax cables. What are they like?

18327


+---+
|Filename: Zu Wax cables.jpg|
|Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=18327|
+---+


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?


arnyk wrote: 
 
 best support I can give you: Do listening tests that involve actual
 audible differences, or at least have some non-zero probability of
 involving audible differences.
 
 

If there is a zero-probability of audible differences, then ABX results
will be nothing more than random guesswork.

Anyhow, Analysis Plus is HQ'd within 1.5 hours of GPWoods.  Shouldn't it
be easy for you to discredit their engineers along with their claims?



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Focal Diablo Utopia III
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speaker  sweet spot position
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?


Archimago wrote: 
 Couldn't find info on these Wax cables. What are they like?

Zu Audio Wax speaker cables

I think they came out 2001, so they've been discontinued for some time. 
I can't find a link with specs, but I bet there's something out there. 
I know that the conductor is copper and they have dielectric shielding
since they're directional.  I'd been using them for years until I
borrowed a few sets from Cable Co last Summer.  Both ends are terminated
with spades.  Note that my speakers are _not_ bi-wired.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?

2015-06-27 Thread arnyk


jkeny wrote: 
 Again you try very hard to make it appear that the advice I gave jh901
 is somehow erroneous without specifically stating what is incorrect in
 my statement to him.\
 

No, it is just that I despair of repeating advice that I just gave in
the recent past that obviously flew right over so many people's head.

General comment about advice - the best people to obtain advice from are
people who are happy and successful doing the thing of interest.

Does it make sense to get advice about Automobiles from Luddites who
damn any form of transportation other then animal power?  That is the
moral equivalent of getting advice about doing DBTs from people who have
spent years criticizing them like say Jkeny.

So for example, if you want to obtain advice about doing audio DBTs,
should you take advice from a DAC manufacturer who has been spewing
venom about the years of frustrations that they have had doing DBTs? 
Rule of thumb - if you want to fail, take advice from people who always
fail!

Putting things into the audio forum world, is it better to obtain
information about doing DBTs from say *-Hydrogen Audio-* which stakes
its existence on audio DBTs, of do you take advice from the TAS or
Stereophlile web site that has staked their lives on getting people to
distrust audio DBTs?

A good place to start on the web might be
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABX_test

A good place to start on HA might be:
http://wiki.hydrogenaud.io/index.php?title=ABX

For example, one of the leading tools for introducing people to ABX is
Foobar2000 with the ABX plug in. HA hosts that's author's forum for the
product!: 

http://www.foobar2000.org/components/view/foo_abx

http://www.hydrogenaud.io/forums/index.php?act=SFs=f=28



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?


So, Arny, despite all your convoluted posts  apparent disagreement
with the advice I posted to jh901 - you find no grounds to disagree with
it.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?


artee wrote: 
 An interesting result. It appears that the tester can reliably identify
 a difference, but of what - given that the 24/192 hi-res was upsampled
 from the 16/44 lo-res. Full marks to the tester for doing an ABX and
 publishing the results, though.

Yes, indeed a very interesting result and great that he took the time to
run the ABX. As you suggest, we have to be careful what the result
actually means of course. Remembering that this is 16/44 played back
natively by the RME Babyface vs. a 24/192 -upsample- using SoundForge
10. -The source content is the same so there is no actual real detail
being added or subtracted like an ABX of an original 24/192 vs. a
downsample.-

So basically, the ABX demonstrates that for the Babyface, feeding 24/192
data seems to result in a sound the tester prefers and can differentiate
compared to essentially the same data fed as 16/44. Alternatively, maybe
the SoundForge upsampling algorithm results in a better sound.

We don't know which of the above is closer to the truth due to more than
1 variable being manipulated in the experiment - different hardware
playback modes, effect of specific software upsampling.

Also, we do not know if other variables may be affecting the blind test
- are there any visual cues when hi-res data is being fed to the device?
Does the device click or emit some unique signature with samplerate
change? Do we know if native 16/44 playback results in the exact same
volume output as when fed 24/192?

Ultimately, nice post though we really have to think about just how
generalizable the findings may be since we're not sure of the variables
that could bias the result like those above... It is good to read about
the subjective quality the tester used to differentiate though.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?

2015-06-27 Thread arnyk


jkeny wrote: 
 So, Arny, despite all your convoluted posts  apparent disagreement
 with the advice I posted to jh901 - you find no grounds to disagree with
 it.

?

I disagree with your advice on the grounds that it is irrelevant to
actual audio testing, and contains the many gross errors that I have
repeatedly pointed out to you over the past days, weeks and months.

Why one would point out a sham of an anti-scientific test as an example
to follow would be completely incomprehensible unless one were to admit
that there are people who full of hate for science and want to destroy
the concept of reliable audio tests.

Here is a good reliable source of useful information about performing
DBTs: 

http://nousaine.com/nousaine_tech_articles.html



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?


Again you try very hard to make it appear that the advice I gave jh901
is somehow erroneous without specifically stating what is incorrect in
my statement to him.  

-Word of advice, jh901- do a blind test at home first - you need to be
able to isolate a short section of music where you can focus on a
specific aspect  can repeatedly identify the difference between cables
both sighted  blind (be very scrupulous  honest with yourself here) -
then go ahead with the more formal test - otherwise you will be wasting
everybody's time.-



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?


And if you want advice about trolling go to an expert like Arny



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?

2015-06-27 Thread Julf


jkeny wrote: 
 The speculation comes in the continuation of your post which you omitted
 _\__I_guess_the_non-audiophile_in_me_tends_to_go_\and_if_the_differences_are_that_small,_does_it_actually_matter?\,_as_in_\does_a_difference_so_small_that_I_have_to_go_through_extreme_measures_to_hear_it_actually_affect_my_enjoyment_of_the_music?\_.
 

Huh? Yes, that was indeed speculation, as clearly indicated by the
question marks, and also clearly flagged as a personal opinion/position.
I am very specifically talking about *my* enjoyment of music. 

 Examples, please!

I suggest you re-read the thread you linked to. 

 For him, it is a provable reality  that is the point to anybody
 endeavouring to verify whether their sighted perception is not a
 delusion. Of course, your feigned scientific rigour is just an
 insatiable demand for further tests when the results are not to your
 liking   

It really seems you have no idea what provable reality means. 

If I state that I have seen an alien spacecraft, and seen it with a
properly calibrated and tested telescope, does that make alien
spacecraft provable reality?

 It's not just a conclusion from that test - it's well documented in the
 BS.1116 standards.

Can you please point to the section that you think supports your
claims?

Anyway, how is any of this in any way relevant to the original thread?



To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people - Paul W Klipsch, 1953

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?


Archimago wrote: 
 Hey, just adding a comment about an interesting ABX test result rather
 than general comment on ABX as you and Arny have been discussing!
 
 The 16/44 vs. software upsampled 24/192 test is -very different- from
 the jitter one! When did I imply that my comments on the Babyface has
 any bearing on the jitter test to make the conjectures... threadbare?
 Please, do not generalize my comments to something I said nothing about!
 
 The jitter test is about an original signal vs. one that has been
 distorted by simulated *1000ns p-p jitter* (correct me if I'm wrong)!
 That's 1 microsecond! That amount of jitter is IMMENSE and the idea that
 someone with good ears can ABX that is certainly not terribly
 surprising. Realize that the Transporter has a measured jitter of
 300*pico*seconds. In a pure sine wave, I bet most of us will not have
 trouble with simulated 10ns sidebands using good equipment.

You are correct - I shouldn't have generalised your comments -
apologies.

The Jitter ABX testing is not done on just one file which has 1000ns p-p
added jitter - it includes a number of such tests on files with
progressively lower simulated jitter levels  on some files imported
from a pro-audio site purported to have 6ps of simulated jitter.

See '-*this post*-'
(http://www.head-fi.org/t/668878/jitter-correlation-to-audibility/165#post_9838363)
where he shows a relatively positive ABX result - Total: 10/12 (1.9%) on
two files path30n versus path30jr. Which generate the comments That is
a really excellent result, the difference between the files is always
less than -90.3 dBFS (= 1 LSB in 16-bit resolution), except for a low
level click at the end of the file, and only rarely has peaks above
-96 dBFS. 

Anyway, the point of posting these ABX tests was his detailed
description of the training, focus  testing technique needed for a
successful audible differentiation - it was not about what the results
signify or don't signify.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?

2015-06-27 Thread ralphpnj


Archimago wrote: 
 Hey, just adding a comment about an interesting ABX test result rather
 than general comment on ABX as you and Arny have been discussing!
 
 The 16/44 vs. software upsampled 24/192 test is -very different- from
 the jitter one! When did I imply that my comments on the Babyface has
 any bearing on the jitter test to make the conjectures... threadbare?
 Please, do not generalize my comments to something I said nothing
 about!
 
 The jitter test is about an original signal vs. one that has been
 distorted by simulated *1000ns p-p jitter* (correct me if I'm wrong)!
 That's 1 microsecond! That amount of jitter is IMMENSE and the idea that
 someone with good ears can ABX that is certainly not terribly
 surprising. Realize that the Transporter has a measured jitter of
 300*pico*seconds. In a pure sine wave, I bet most of us will not have
 trouble with simulated 10ns sidebands using good equipment.

Archimago - I've stated over and over again that it is physically
impossible for humans to hear jitter in the pico second range due the
inferior structure of the human ear. Now on the other hand for some
strange reason known to only to them, golden eared audiophiles can
easily hear picosecond jitter. A good guess as to why this is so might
be that audiophiles have non-human ears but an even better guess might
be MONEY



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. 
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1  Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
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Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose  Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?

2015-06-27 Thread arnyk


Wombat wrote: 
 We just lately had a thread at Hydrogen where someone did positive abx
 with the Babyface playback at 44.1k against 192k. He was not able to abx
 the same file with 192k-44.1k-192k i prepared with sox for 192k
 playback. So yes, the Babyface itself should really produce clearly
 different outputs for different samplerates.
 The thread starts about Naim but leads to the above conclusion.
 http://www.hydrogenaud.io/forums/index.php?showtopic=108758hl=naim%20samplest=0

Is the correct interpretation of the above: When Naim did the
downsampling 192 - 44.1 there was an audible loss in the downsampling
192 - 44.1, but when you did the 192 - 44.1  downsampling with Sox,
there was no audible difference?



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?

2015-06-27 Thread Wombat


arnyk wrote: 
 Is the correct interpretation of the above: When Naim did the
 downsampling 192 - 44.1 there was an audible loss in the downsampling
 192 - 44.1, but when you did the 192 - 44.1  downsampling with Sox,
 there was no audible difference?
Please read the thread again. The files naim offered were different in
phase, loudnes and lenght. They were meant to check if gear can play
back different samplerates not for the test of how they sound. Of course
they could have done better.
When we were at it we did better and the OP could abx 44.1 downsampled
from 192 on the Babyface but not 192-44.1-192.



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monoblocks - Sommer SPK240 - self-made speakers

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?


Wombat wrote: 
 We just lately had a thread at Hydrogen where *someone* did positive abx
 with the Babyface playback at 44.1k against 192k. He was not able to abx
 the same file with 192k-44.1k-192k i prepared with sox for 192k
 playback. So yes, the Babyface itself should really produce clearly
 different outputs for different samplerates.
 The thread starts about Naim but leads to the above conclusion.
 http://www.hydrogenaud.io/forums/index.php?showtopic=108758hl=naim%20samplest=0

It wasn't just *someone*, it was the same guy as I referenced in the my
links - ultmusicsnob in those links  ultimatemusicsnob on HA

His objective with his ABX testing was to determine if 16/44 was audibly
different to 24/192 on his equipment  not to make any universal claim
about RB audio Vs high-res audio differences - so your providing a 16/44
file in a 192K carrier packet is of no importance to him as it is not
the way he (or anybody else) listens to RB audio.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?


jkeny wrote: 
 As I said, Archi, I was asked to give examples of real world experience
 of positive ABX testing when I posted advice to jh901 nothing else.
 
 I also posted his ABX results for jitter files so unless you have some
 evidence that the RME Babyface soundcard is in some way also adding
 audible tells during both the high-res  the jitter tests then your
 conjectures might seem somewhat threadbare.
 
 You also seem to ignore (or not believe) the evidence provided by the
 poster of what specific sonic details he is listening to during these
 ABX tests

Hey, just adding a comment about an interesting ABX test result rather
than general comment on ABX as you and Arny have been discussing!

The 16/44 vs. software upsampled 24/192 test is -very different- from
the jitter one! When did I imply that my comments on the Babyface has
any bearing on the jitter test to make the conjectures... threadbare?
Please, do not generalize my comments to something I said nothing
about!

The jitter test is about an original signal vs. one that has been
distorted by simulated *1000ns p-p jitter*! That's 1 microsecond! That
amount of jitter is IMMENSE and the idea that someone with good ears can
ABX that is certainly not terribly surprising. Realize that the
Transporter has a measured jitter of 300*pico*seconds. In a pure sine
wave, I bet most of us will not have trouble with simulated 10ns
sidebands using good equipment.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?


Julf, arnyk, and others:  I do intend to round up a couple of academics
to administer the ABX.  I'll likely take a look at a couple of links on
the topic, but I'm not interested in proving my level of expertise it
(which will be very little!).  Of course, I'd think that anyone
following this will want to have as much confidence as possible in the
process and results.

I will have a tougher time finding folks who will meet the minimum
standard for this effort on my own.  I suppose I could cold call the
most appropriate department or two at CMU and see what happens. 
Hopefully, one of you will know someone who knows someone at the very
least so that I can get the process moving.

I'll intend to invest in a pair of cables from Radio Shack as soon as I
can get to it.  I'm not sure what gauge or model to go for.  The test
cable will be bare wire terminated whereas my 9 gauge Big Silver Oval
are not.  Hopefully, that will be ok, else some accommodation will have
to be made.  Of course I'll engage in my own sighted test.  My
expectation is that the difference will be laughably obvious during
sighted testing.  I've never done a blind test so the first time will be
the official.  I'm not a golden ear expert.  I just don't have that
level of experience.  That said, I'm not one to drop a grand on speaker
cables when under $50 will perform just the same.

I'm in no hurry and I do appreciate the support so far and I look
forward to just a tiny bit more from a few of you.  Again, sincere
appreciation.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?


jh901 wrote: 
 Julf, arnyk, and others:  I do intend to round up a couple of academics
 to administer the ABX.  I'll likely take a look at a couple of links on
 the topic, but I'm not interested in proving my level of expertise it
 (which will be very little!).  Of course, I'd think that anyone
 following this will want to have as much confidence as possible in the
 process and results.
 
 I will have a tougher time finding folks who will meet the minimum
 standard for this effort on my own.  I suppose I could cold call the
 most appropriate department or two at CMU and see what happens. 
 Hopefully, one of you will know someone who knows someone at the very
 least so that I can get the process moving.
 
 I'll intend to invest in a pair of cables from Radio Shack as soon as I
 can get to it.  I'm not sure what gauge or model to go for.  The test
 cable will be bare wire terminated whereas my 9 gauge Big Silver Oval
 are not.  Hopefully, that will be ok, else some accommodation will have
 to be made.  Of course I'll engage in my own sighted test.  My
 expectation is that the difference will be laughably obvious during
 sighted testing. 
 _*I've_never_done_a_blind_test_so_the_first_time_will_be_the_official*_.
 I'm not a golden ear expert.  I just don't have that level of
 experience.  That said, I'm not one to drop a grand on speaker cables
 when under $50 will perform just the same.
 
 I'm in no hurry and I do appreciate the support so far and I look
 forward to just a tiny bit more from a few of you.  Again, sincere
 appreciation.

Yes, I don't mean this in a sarcastic way but it's obvious that you
haven't done a blind test before - you don't realise what it entails as
I've tried to point out in my advice. You are walking blindly into a
test that will embarrass you  some people are very happy to let you do
so.

I predict that you will be turned down by all at CMU as they realise it
would be a waste of their time unless you bring some experience of blind
testing to the table  can show that you already can differentiate



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?


Wombat wrote: 
 Anyone that has experience and can explain what equivalent cheap cord he
 should choose against the 9 gauge oval? A 9 gauge copper but shorter to
 have roughly the same resistence or some standard 9 gauge silvered of
 the same length?

If no one here tells me what to get, then I'll figure it out and report
back in case there are any concerns.  I'll definitely be getting basic
copper, but I don't want to screw up in such a way that arnyk, etc will
point out where something was botched.



Wombat wrote: 
 
 btw. jh you mentioned you changed sibilance with this cable. Sibilance
 is very likely to be created with flaws of the tweeter or a tube
 somewhere. I really wonder how a cable should cure this. Did i get this
 right?

Sibilant passages, in my experience, are challenging for a _system_ to
reproduce properly.  Sure, the speakers play the biggest role, but in my
experience the electronics have a meaningful impact.  It has also been
my experience that cables make a difference in that aspect, not to
mention many others.  My speakers have a pretty good reputation, which I
can't prove, but I'm confident that their performance closely represents
the discounted price (from SRP) that typical informed audiophiles pay.



Wombat wrote: 
 
 Oh, when it is Patricia Barber nothing will help :)

My music collection breaks down as approximately 1160 pop/rock/blues,
535 jazz, and 110 classical.  Focus of the jazz/rock is around 50s-90s
and it will take a few years to fill that out.  I have only a tiny
percent of typical audiophile recordings and I rarely if ever have time
or inclination to give them a spin.  I am a music first audiophile with
an emphasis on mastering quality.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?


jh901 wrote: 
 Noted.  I suppose I'll ABX with between 3-10 passages that I'm familiar
 with.  We are talking about cables here so it shouldn't be as
 challenging as source resolution (16/44 vs Hi-res).  I expect dramatic
 differences and if I don't experience that sighted, then I'll report
 that here.  If all goes as expected then I can have a friend help with a
 blind test before the official.  I'm not out to pull an I told you so!
 and I don't expect to be treated that way if the findings are different
 that what I claim they'll be.  If I follow at least some of your advice
 then I'll know that an ABX is going to be beyond my ability before
 setting up the official.  Frankly, I've never ABX'd
 _*throwing_a_thick_blanket_over_my_speakers*_, but I doubt too many
 would doubt that the sound quality is diminished appreciably.  I expect
 to find a difference in sound that is not too far off from that example.
I think it wise to do as you say but forget about the blanket - close
your eyes or some such blinding technique



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?

2015-06-27 Thread ralphpnj


jkeny wrote: 
 Yes, I don't mean this in a sarcastic way but it's obvious that you
 haven't done a blind test before - you don't realise what it entails as
 I've tried to point out in my advice. You are walking blindly into a
 test that will embarrass you  some people are very happy to let you do
 so.
 
 I predict that you will be turned down by all at CMU as they realise it
 would be a waste of their time unless you bring some experience of blind
 testing to the table  can show that you already can differentiate

I'm confused. Isn't the purpose of a double blind test to determine if
there is, in fact, a difference and not, as the above would have it, to
determine if one can find/hear/see/feel/sense an -*existing*- (or least
prejudged) difference. I mean if everyone knows and admits that is a
difference, such as would be the case of music played back using a pair
of inexpensive small two way bookshelf speakers versus a pair of very
expensive, large three way floor standing speakers, then what is the
point of doing a (pointless) double blind test.

Add into all of this confusion the fact that as these DBTs have been
described over the course of the past 20 or so prior posts, these DBTs
would be used to determined if a given individual (jh901 in this case)
can hear a difference and leaves out entire part of DBTs about the
results being statistically significant and such. As in, so okay some
audiophile somewhere can correctly tell he difference 70% of the time
between an mp3, a 16bit/44.1kHz wav and a 24bit/192kHz wav file. Isn't
the real issue where or not a statistically significant amount of people
can correctly tell the difference a statistically significant percentage
of the time?

Again, I'm confused.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?


Julf wrote: 
 Great - still haven't heard back from my old contacts at CMU, and I
 don't want to be to pushy, so I might wait a day or two before prompting
 again.
 
 Meanwhile, happy to answer any questions.

Cool.  Appreciated and no rush at all.  Ideally, I can meet a few good
folks over in Oakland and treat them to lunch while we get to know each
other.  I'm no academic, but I have a bit of natural curiosity.  This
should be fun and informative.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?


jkeny wrote: 
 
 
 Huh? It's jh901's claims (as this is what he is setting himself up for)
 that are being tested here. And, if it's going to be used as some sort
 of proof that jh901 can indeed differentiate between his silver cable
  some cheap copper one, then he will be asked to produce statistically
 significant results which requires multiple tests - I believe 12 is the
 minimum but perhaps 15 will be called for. But I don't expect that it
 will ever get that far because anyone who knows how to do blind testing
 of any rigour will know not to waste their time on this - sorry jh901 
 
 

No worries.  I can appreciate your doubts.  We'll all find out before
too long.  I am expecting any testing to at least meet the minimum
standard of rigor which will satisfy arnyk and others here.  I'll be
disappointed if I can't identify the X as A or B for 12 samples, but
I'll have to revise that view if my sighted testing raises unexpected
challenges.  My understanding is that several of our fellow members here
claim that there is no difference in sound quality between basic copper
zip cord and professionally engineered hi-end audio cables (irrespective
of conductor, dielectric, etc).  So we aren't even talking about an
entry line audiophile cable versus a flagship.  I would not claim so
boldly that I will choose that X correctly as the difference will likely
not be nearly as great as what I'm anticipating.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?

2015-06-27 Thread Wombat


Anyone that has experience and can explain what equivalent cheap cord he
should choose against the 9 gauge oval? A 9 gauge copper but shorter to
have roughly the same resistence or some standard 9 gauge silvered of
the same length?
btw. jh you mentioned you changed sibilance with this cable. Sibilance
is very likely to be created with flaws of the tweeter or a tube
somewhere. I really wonder how a cable should cure this. Did i get this
right?
Oh, when it is Patricia Barber nothing will help :)



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monoblocks - Sommer SPK240 - self-made speakers

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?

2015-06-27 Thread Julf


jh901 wrote: 
 If all goes as expected then I can have a friend help with a blind test
 before the official.

I just suggest trying to make sure they are properly double-blind. From
some other (non-audio) tests I have done I have come away amazed at how
good humans are at picking up cues from other humans (and even animals)
without realizing it.



To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people - Paul W Klipsch, 1953

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?


jh901 wrote: 
 Ha! Yes.  I was referring to throwing a blanket over the speakers such
 that the sound is muffled.  I was suggesting that it would be easy to be
 blinded and hear that different and that I expect nearly that dramatic a
 difference between my cables and copper zip cord.  Well, confidence has
 a way of taking revenge, so I'll be smart and take as much advice as I
 can!
Oh, sorry, I misread that sentence :)



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?


jh901 wrote: 
 Noted and appreciated.  I will dig into your earlier posts.
 
 
 
 
 
 Well, I'm not looking for academics looking to score for themselves, but
 rather some curious guys looking to have a little fun for a couple
 hours.  There must be Phd students, etc who have an interest and who
 take pleasure in donating a little time.  Guess we'll see.

Despite the claims and comments, JH901, I think you're a cool guy and if
I lived in your part of N. America, I'd happily drive over with a decent
length of 12G OFC zip cords (10' enough?) and decent connectors (banana
plugs?) which can be easily connected/disconnected to try with ya... We
can go for a nice meal first since that's always important to reduce
anxiety and whatnot since we don't know each other... We'll take a few
pictures of the setup, run a few trials with your favourite tunes (I'll
happily be the cable switch monkey behind the gear) to see if it hits
50% accuracy... Then kick back with a couple beers, some good music and
chat about the hobby and life...

If you can tell the difference between the Analysis Plus Ovals, I'll
probably ask to borrow them for a few nights to see if I can try to
explain the sonic difference!

Either way, it'd be fun...

Maybe you can try this first with a local objective-leaning friend
before hitting the local PhD candidates :-). I think this is in a way
what jkeny is getting at.

Cheers.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?


ralphpnj wrote: 
 Okay one question - what do you mean by failing the blind test?
Sorry, loose terminology - I mean getting a null result or doing
statistically close to random guessing.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?

2015-06-27 Thread ralphpnj


jkeny wrote: 
 The purpose of a blind test is to eliminate as far as possible biases,
 influences on our auditory perception - the main one being the cognitive
 bias that is cited as being the result of knowing what we are testing.
 If you think that you can do a blind test without having first isolated
  nailed down what you think are the specific differences between two
 devices then I will put money on you to fail every time when subtle
 differences are being tested for. Well gross differences are not usually
 blind tested but rather the preference ranking for such gross
 differences - again the sighted evaluation of such speakers is shown to
 lead to a perception of larger differences than are found when blind
 tested - The Harmon blind tests show this.
 
 Huh? It's jh901's claims (as this is what he is setting himself up for)
 that are being tested here. And, if it's going to be used as some sort
 of proof that jh901 can indeed differentiate between his silver cable
  some cheap copper one, then he will be asked to produce statistically
 significant results which requires multiple tests - I believe 12 is the
 minimum but perhaps 15 will be called for. But I don't expect that it
 will ever get that far because anyone who knows how to do blind testing
 of any rigour will know not to waste their time on this - sorry jh901 
 
 No doubt Arny will now contradict everything I've just said  confuse
 you more :)

Okay one question - what do you mean by failing the blind test?



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?


jkeny wrote: 
 You are correct - I shouldn't have generalised your comments -
 apologies.
 
 The Jitter ABX testing is not done on just one file which has 1000ns p-p
 added jitter - it includes a number of such tests on files with
 progressively lower simulated jitter levels  on some files imported
 from a pro-audio site purported to have 6ps of simulated jitter.
 
 See '-*this post*-'
 (http://www.head-fi.org/t/668878/jitter-correlation-to-audibility/165#post_9838363)
 where he shows a relatively positive ABX result - Total: 10/12 (1.9%) on
 two files path30n versus path30jr. Which generate the comments That is
 a really excellent result, the difference between the files is always
 less than -90.3 dBFS (= 1 LSB in 16-bit resolution), except for a low
 level click at the end of the file, and only rarely has peaks above
 -96 dBFS. 
 
 Anyway, the point of posting these ABX tests was his detailed
 description of the training, focus  testing technique needed for a
 successful audible differentiation - it was not about what the results
 signify or don't signify.

Thanks jkeny for the reply and clarification. I'll have to look more
into that thread!



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?


ralphpnj wrote: 
 I'm confused. Isn't the purpose of a double blind test to determine if
 there is, in fact, a difference and not, as the above would have it, to
 determine if one can find/hear/see/feel/sense an -*existing*- (or least
 prejudged) difference.The purpose of a blind test is to eliminate as far as 
 possible biases,
influences on our auditory perception - the main one being the cognitive
bias that is cited as being the result of knowing what we are testing.
If you think that you can do a blind test without having first isolated
 nailed down what you think are the specific differences between two
devices then I will put money on you to fail every time when subtle
differences are being tested for.  I mean if everyone knows and admits that is 
a difference, such as would
 be the case of music played back using a pair of inexpensive small two
 way bookshelf speakers versus a pair of very expensive, large three way
 floor standing speakers, then what is the point of doing a (pointless)
 double blind test.Well gross differences are not usually blind tested but 
 rather the
preference ranking for such gross differences - again the sighted
evaluation of such speakers is shown to lead to a perception of larger
differences than are found when blind tested - The Harmon blind tests
show this.

 Add into all of this confusion the fact that as these DBTs have been
 described over the course of the past 20 or so prior posts, these DBTs
 would be used to determined if a given individual (jh901 in this case)
 can hear a difference and leaves out entire part of DBTs about the
 results being statistically significant and such.As in, so okay some
 audiophile somewhere can correctly tell he difference 70% of the time
 between an mp3, a 16bit/44.1kHz wav and a 24bit/192kHz wav file. Isn't
 the real issue where or not a statistically significant amount of people
 can correctly tell the difference a statistically significant percentage
 of the time?Huh? It's jh901's claims (as this is what he is setting himself 
 up for)
that are being tested here. And, if it's going to be used as some sort
of proof that jh901 can indeed differentiate between his silver cable
 some cheap copper one, then he will be asked to produce statistically
significant results which requires multiple tests - I believe 12 is the
minimum but perhaps 15 will be called for. But I don't expect that it
will ever get that far because anyone who knows how to do blind testing
of any rigour will know not to waste their time on this - sorry jh901 

 Again, I'm confused.No doubt Arny will now contradict everything I've just 
 said  confuse
you more :)



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?


jkeny wrote: 
 Yes, I don't mean this in a sarcastic way but it's obvious that you
 haven't done a blind test before - you don't realise what it entails as
 I've tried to point out in my advice. You are walking blindly into a
 test that will embarrass you  some people are very happy to let you do
 so.
 

Noted and appreciated.  I will dig into your earlier posts.



jkeny wrote: 
 
 I predict that you will be turned down by all at CMU as they realise it
 would be a waste of their time unless you bring some experience of blind
 testing to the table  can show that you already can differentiate

Well, I'm not looking for academics looking to score for themselves, but
rather some curious guys looking to have a little fun for a couple
hours.  There must be Phd students, etc who have an interest and who
take pleasure in donating a little time.  Guess we'll see.



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Focal Diablo Utopia III
__Acoustic treatment: DIY Cylinder Bass traps | Rule of Thirds for
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__Speaker Cables: Analysis Plus Big Silver Oval | Shunyata Venom series
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?


jkeny wrote: 
 
 
 As per the Gearslutz thread, it shows that the first step is identifying
  isolating a specific aspect or artifact in the music that can be
 focused on during blind testing. Without this step there is absolutely
 no point in going any further as I advised JH901
 
 

Noted.  I suppose I'll ABX with between 3-10 passages that I'm familiar
with.  We are talking about cables here so it shouldn't be as
challenging as source resolution (16/44 vs Hi-res).  I expect dramatic
differences and if I don't experience that sighted, then I'll report
that here.  If all goes as expected then I can have a friend help with a
blind test before the official.  I'm not out to pull an I told you so!
and I don't expect to be treated that way if the findings are different
that what I claim they'll be.  If I follow at least some of your advice
then I'll know that an ABX is going to be beyond my ability before
setting up the official.  Frankly, I've never ABX'd throwing a thick
blanket over my speakers, but I doubt too many would doubt that the
sound quality is diminished appreciably.  I expect to find a difference
in sound that is not too far off from that example.



Cary Audio 306 SACD Pro | Cary Audio SLP-05 | Cary Audio SA-200.2 |
Focal Diablo Utopia III
__Acoustic treatment: DIY Cylinder Bass traps | Rule of Thirds for
speaker  sweet spot position
__Speaker Cables: Analysis Plus Big Silver Oval | Shunyata Venom series
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?

2015-06-27 Thread Julf


jh901 wrote: 
 I'm in no hurry and I do appreciate the support so far and I look
 forward to just a tiny bit more from a few of you.  Again, sincere
 appreciation.

Great - still haven't heard back from my old contacts at CMU, and I
don't want to be to pushy, so I might wait a day or two before prompting
again.

Meanwhile, happy to answer any questions.



To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people - Paul W Klipsch, 1953

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?


jkeny wrote: 
 I think it wise to do as you say but forget about the blanket - close
 your eyes or some such blinding technique

Ha! Yes.  I was referring to throwing a blanket over the speakers such
that the sound is muffled.  I was suggesting that it would be easy to be
blinded and hear that different and that I expect nearly that dramatic a
difference between my cables and copper zip cord.  Well, confidence has
a way of taking revenge, so I'll be smart and take as much advice as I
can!



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Focal Diablo Utopia III
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?

2015-06-26 Thread artee


jkeny wrote: 
 From here
 https://www.gearslutz.com/board/electronic-music-instruments-electronic-music-production/850044-foobar-2000-abx-test-redbook-vs-192-24-a.html
 -
 -
 
 -
 
 -
 
 -
 
 -
 
 -
 
 -
 
 -
 
 -
 

An interesting result. It appears that the tester can reliably identify
a difference, but of what - given that the 24/192 hi-res was upsampled
from the 16/44 lo-res. Full marks to the tester for doing an ABX and
publishing the results, though.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?

2015-06-26 Thread Julf


artee wrote: 
 An interesting result. It appears that the tester can reliably identify
 a difference, but of what - given that the 24/192 hi-res was upsampled
 from the 16/44 lo-res. Full marks to the tester for doing an ABX and
 publishing the results, though.

Indeed - and the full thread is good reading.



To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people - Paul W Klipsch, 1953

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?

2015-06-26 Thread Julf


jkeny wrote: 
 Well this guy, ultmusisnob, stated that he had a decided preference for
 high-res material in his normal sighted, long-term listening.

That might well be, but as your quote shows, he states rather clearly
The above results contribute ***nothing*** to the established science
of 192/24 versus 44.1/16 and human hearing, so we should not draw any
such conclusions from it.

 Your interpretation is just one such angle, another would be that what
 is easily differentiated in long-term listening becomes very difficult
 to differentiate in this form of testing  requires some very specific
 techniques  test material to do so i.e it is a reflection on the test
 itself rather than on the material being tested.

That is something you might choose to speculate, but I don't think that
thread provides any evidence for or against such a theory. 

 
They do establish that when I say, It sounds better to me, I am
  reporting a provable reality, not a placebo effect.  
 

I think that is a rather too strong a statement to conclude from that
specific test (as shown by the other comments in that thread). Anyway,
let's not get sidetracked - I think we can conclude that it is possible
that some differences might require training and concentration to pick
out - anything beyond that is speculation, unsupported by empirical
data.



To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people - Paul W Klipsch, 1953

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?


This guy also posted ABX results on Head-fi thread
_*jitter__audibility 
(\http://www.head-fi.org/t/668878/jitter-correlation-to-audibility/105#post_9824683\;)*_
again giving his detailed description of his listening technique

As per the Gearslutz thread, it shows that the first step is identifying
 isolating a specific aspect or artifact in the music that can be
focussed on during blind testing. Without this step there is absolutely
no point in going any further as I advised JH901

It also shows that this is likely to change based on the track being
used for testing.

Detailed descriptions of the listening technique  experiences of those
who complete a successful ABX test are educational  should be more
widespread as it should help anybody who wants to seriously engage in an
ABX test  

Here are his comments after each ABX test done on a new file produced to
him:
 Not much to listen for here, especially in such a busy and trebly mix.
 Too sizzling for my taste, I'd want a do-over if a recording studio
 handed this to me as a client.If you want to give it a shot, here's how
 I got to it: find the shortest, sharpest, loudest transient you can. No
 cymbals, the 'short' is important. I used the second-to-last snare hit
 in the clip. Use the 'A' version to burn that sound into your mental
 ear, then compare directly to X and to Y, either one first. To my ears,
 the jittered version was just slightly blurred.
 
 Nick, if y'all want to pursue this, I'd be thinking about something that
 might expose graininess and breakup due to jitter on sustained notes,
 instead of hunting down transients. Classical piano, slow, with a held
 chord somewhere? I don't have any software to deliberately jitter with,
 so I'd need to pick that up somewhere.

 Well, I will insist on the caveat that *all* ABX testing is of a sort
 pretty much wholly removed from how one would normally listen to music.
 The protocol can't be completed otherwise. The *only* time I ever
 listened like that in real life was when I was trying to hear John
 Lennon say I bury Paul at the end of Strawberry Fields. [image:
 http://files.head-fi.org/images/smilies/biggrin.gif]   That said, 
 Yes, my first research question is usually Is differentiation possible
 at all???, and so I use the tools available to hunt for the
 differences.
 It was particularly difficult in this case, as I don't have a good sense
 of what problematic jitter *ought* to sound like, and it matters what
 testers are listening for.
 
 Since I can pick out a difference on one snare hit, a further refinement
 would be to listen more 'casually', and see if the drum set sounds
 different throughout.
 
 I'm guessing that the added jitter track would have been
 indistinguishable for this particular music, but it's faintly
 conceivable that interested listeners could learn to hear the difference
 without the procedures I described.

 Of course, this time I had the enormous benefit of knowing what to
 listen for (snare), that I could apply across the track. No hunting
 around for artifacts. 
 I hear the jittered drum set as *slightly* less precise. The jittered
 version thuds instead of snapping tightly. It's a *tiny* difference, but
 you can find it anyplace that the cymbal-crazy drummer isn't covering it
 up. If I had to reverse-engineer from the treatment, I would hypothesize
 that the applied jittering is smearing/obscuring the attacks slightly.

 This is two tests of the same two files, pathn versus pathj, so there's
 replication of the result. 
 I did previous tests listening for any kind of noise or breakup effect
 on the sustained chords. Those are all null, failure to positively ABX.
 So if there's some sort of calculable noise contribution of the jitter
 to the signal, it was inaudible to me.
 
 Short sharp snare hits are not available in this track, so I had to
 re-learn how to detect a difference.
 
 Since the Range sample cued successfully on the snare hits, I switched
 to listening to the piano note attacks, and that provided the successful
 cues. The non-jittered piano was just a little more delicate and
 focused, while the jittered version had just a little more thump and
 spread in it. Soft chords, listened to at soft levels, worked best to
 detect this difference.

 Are we highly confident that there is no other possible source of
 differences in these tracks? 
 The tests below are for path30n versus path30jl.
 I have learned what these clips sound like, and I am learning (maybe)
 what jitter sounds like.
 But even discounting for some sort of learning factor, path30jl was
 ABXed with precisely the same characteristics as path30j (soft piano
 attack), and with less difficulty.
 Cue again was focus and delicacy (better focus in n).
 As you can see, both tests took close to three minutes, and were
 conducted minutes apart.
 
 If the level of distortion is scaling linearly to the severity of jitter
 applied, it is not apparent. I expected less difference, but that was

Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?


Julf wrote: 
 That might well be, but as your quote shows, he states rather clearly
 The above results contribute ***nothing*** to the established science
 of 192/24 versus 44.1/16 and human hearing, so we should not draw any
 such conclusions from it.I didn't say that it contributes anything either - 
 I simply mentioned
that he has developed a preference for high-res material during his
work. This may well be a preference biased by expectation but his ABX
results confirm that he is able to differentiate these examples. 

 That is something you might choose to speculate, but I don't think that
 thread provides any evidence for or against such a theory.No more evidence or 
 less evidence for or against than your speculation. 


 *I think that is a rather too strong a statement to conclude from that
 specific test *(as shown by the other comments in that thread). Anyway,
 let's not get sidetracked - I think we can conclude that it is possible
 that some differences might require training and concentration to pick
 out - anything beyond that is speculation, unsupported by empirical
 data.
Huh? This is his statement, not mine! Do you not accept his ABX results?
What part of his statement do you think is too strong -They do
establish that when I say, It sounds better to me, I am reporting a
provable reality, not a placebo effect.?-



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?

2015-06-26 Thread Julf


jkeny wrote: 
 The point of linking to that ABX test was to show the pitfalls 
 techniques required to successfully pass such tests. It's immaterial
 whether what he was testing was of value or not.

Indeed, the tests in that specific thread are not very interesting as
such: What they might show, and I assume that is why you posted the
link, is that some differences might be extremely small, and require a
lot of training and concentration to pick out. I guess the
non-audiophile in me tends to go and if the differences are that small,
does it actually matter?, as in does a difference so small that I have
to go through extreme measures to hear it actually affect my enjoyment
of the music?.



To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people - Paul W Klipsch, 1953

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?


Julf wrote: 
 Indeed, the tests in that specific thread are not very interesting as
 such: What they might show, and I assume that is why you posted the
 link, is that some differences might be extremely small, and require a
 lot of training and concentration to pick out. I guess the
 non-audiophile in me tends to go and if the differences are that small,
 does it actually matter?, as in does a difference so small that I have
 to go through extreme measures to hear it actually affect my enjoyment
 of the music?.
Well this guy, ultmusisnob, stated that he had a decided preference for
high-res material in his normal sighted listening. The ABX test
results  his description of the necessary training, focus  attention
needed to produce positive ABX results show a number of things. Your
interpretation is just one such angle, another would be that what is
easily differentiated in long-term listening becomes very difficult to
differentiate in this form of testing  requires some very specific
techniques  test matrial to do so i.e it is a reflection on the test
itself rather than on the material being tested.

Some of this he summarises in his post
 -Summary to this point:-
 
 -The effect being heard in foobar ABX testing here has been robustly
 detected:-
 -1) In popular music (2 different songs), dense textures -
 -2) In classical music, more transparent textures-
 -3) With default iZotope SRC values (32 filter, 175 alias suppression)-
 -4) With highest quality SRC values (150 filter, 200 alias
 suppression)-
 -5) Using high quality headphones through high quality headphone amp out
 of high quality interface (RME Babyface)-
 -6) Using cheap earphone plugs driven by generic motherboard audio chips
 from garden variety [Dell] desktop PC-
 
 -NOTE: The above results contribute ***nothing*** to the established
 science of 192/24 versus 44.1/16 and human hearing. -
 
 -They do establish that whatever I am detecting in these file pairs is
 robust to a wide range of conditions: equipment, program content, and
 SRC algorithm settings. -
 
 -They do establish that when I say, It sounds better to me, I am
 reporting a provable reality, not a placebo effect.-



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?

2015-06-26 Thread arnyk


jkeny wrote: 
 Would anyone,other than those taking personal pot-shots, care to suggest
 what is wrong with the advice I gave JH901?
 

A basic rule of debating which seems to have been repeatedly ignored is
that -*it is proper is to attack the issue*-, but *-it is improper to
attack the personal properties of the person raising the issue-*.

For a clear example of a personal attack Jkeny, let's take a recent post
wherein you personally attacked me based on a false claim about my age.
I can provide an image of my Driver's license that has my correct and
legal age on it which is most definitely different than what you falsely
claimed, for the obvious purpose of ridiculing me.

Do I need to provide a link to it Jkeny,
(http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?96407-What-is-the-best-top-end-player-nowp=821933viewfull=1#post821933)
or can you still remember it? ;-)

 
 Does anyone disagree that he should identify  isolate an aspect of the
 sound that he can reliably differentiate both sighted  blind before ABX
 testing?

Of course, I do. It is logically impossible to reliably and accurately
identify and isolate an aspect of sound using sighted evaluations due to
their many flaws which lead to both false positive and false negative
outcomes. The operative word here being *-false-*, you know like your
irrelevant and false claim about my age.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?


Would anyone,other than those taking personal pot-shots, care to suggest
what is wrong with the advice I gave JH901?
Does anyone disagree that he should identify  isolate an aspect of the
sound that he can reliably differentiate both sighted  blind before ABX
testing?



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?

2015-06-26 Thread arnyk


jkeny wrote: 
 The point of linking to that ABX test was to show the pitfalls 
 techniques required to successfully pass such tests. It's immaterial
 whether what he was testing was of value or not
 
 I was asked to
 _-\-_-_-Can_you_share_any_positive_results_of_following_this_advice?\-_
 after I -gave JH901 this advice *Word of advice, jh901- do a blind test
 at home first - you need to be able to isolate a short section of music
 where you can focus on a specific aspect  can repeatedly identify the
 difference between cables both sighted  blind (be very scrupulous 
 honest with yourself here) - then go ahead with the more formal test -
 otherwise you will be wasting everybody's time.*

I asked for positive results, and the response was not unexpectedly
anything but. 

It was a bogus abuse of good technology by a well-known advocate of
anti-science and anti-technology.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What is the best top end player now ?