[Aus-soaring] Horsham Week 2014 Stats

[Jarek Mosiejewski]

Hi,

 

I've compiled some stats for the Horsham Week 2014 competition that finished
on Saturday, 8/02/2014.

 

http://www.horshamweek.org.au/

 

Regards

Jarek

 

Data from the Soaring Spot site: http://www.soaringspot.com/hsm2014/

 

Kilometres Flown and Speeds are non-handicapped. Calculated for non-zero
scores only.

Speeds calculated for finishers only.

Averages per pilot across all tasks.

 

-  Six Competition Days

-  Total Kilometres flown in all classes: 55,809.30 km

 

 

Open / 18M Class:

-  Kilometres Flown: 15,365 km

-  Max Distance Flown: 601.10 km

-  Average Distance Flown: 374.75 km

-  Max Task Speed: 166.30 km / h

-  Average Task Speed: 118.91 km /h

 

15M/ Standard Class:

-  Kilometres Flown: 24,536 km

-  Max Distance Flown: 565.80 km

-  Average Distance Flown: 340.77 km

-  Max Task Speed: 131.00 km / h

-  Average Task Speed: 99.82 km /h

 

Club Class:

-  Kilometres Flown: 19,908.30 km

-  Max Distance Flown: 421.60 km

-  Average Distance Flown: 294.59 km

-  Max Task Speed: 131.00 km / h

-  Average Task Speed: 99.90 km /h

 

 

 

 

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Re: [Aus-soaring] The nationals: a proposal

[Mike Borgelt]

Ian,

How did they score the pilots who finished at the distance but below 
the minimum height? If you are going to have a minimum height for the 
finish it may as well be 500M over the top (or 1500 feet) of the 
airfield. Then it conforms with normal aviation practice and when 
below 1500 you are no longer racing. No low energy finishes etc. The 
people who get back with less than 1500 feet are allowed to join for 
a straight in or on base etc as long as they tell everyone what is 
happening. It is to their advantage to finish as high as possible 
though so they won't be blazing in at Vne. Seems it would be safer 
and even add some spectator interest to the finish.



I agree the 1000M Vne line was horrible  but I don't remember ever 
having a problem with only one camera clock start point and a FAI 
sector of 90 degrees centered on the first leg. At least there is 
only one point where people are busy getting in the right position 
and the rest of the airspace doesn't have this impediment. I flew one 
nationals where multiple start points were used with camera clocks. 
Didn't think much of it. If you want to race you want to fly the SAME 
task. AAT may be competing in gliders but it isn't racing as the rest 
of the world knows it.


As for danger, we can play with the rules to try to minimise this but 
the arguments devolve to somebody "feels" that one way or another is 
safer. We did have one midair with one bailout and one death where 
multiple start points were in use. In the end, putting tens of 
gliders in close proximity for starts, finishes and tasks will 
dramatically increase the chances of a mid air collision and 
individuals will need to make their own judgements as the whether the 
risk is worth it to them. If it isn't don't play.


Mike


At 04:22 PM 15/02/2014, you wrote:

My 20c worth is I think I prefer multiple start points and about 
half my comp flying was in the the VNE 1000m start line which was 
bordering on dangerous.


As for finishing I really like the 2 or 3 km circle at say 1000ft. I 
have been at a German comps years ago and they had well over 100 
gliders and all finishes were 3km out at 300 m I seem to remember. 
They also had a well ordered landing procedures and only one main 
strip.  I was impressed.


I think the last out & return was set in nationals about 1970 and 
cats cradles continued on for about another 10years., With new tasks 
being set with haste on the grid this conflicting directions must be 
thought about & usually is. .


Ian mcphee
On 15/02/2014 3:19 PM, "Mike Borgelt" 
<mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com> 
wrote:

At 05:46 PM 14/02/2014, you wrote:

I agree completely with Tim. We should all use the same rules worldwide.

So the only other question that needs answering is when is the rest 
of the world going to change to our well thought out multiple 
allocated start points and 3km finish circles. And while they are 
changing their rules, they can mandate that all pilots use low tow as well.


Can you still be World Champion if you declare a Lay day 48 hrs in advance?




And they should all mandate two signatures after rigging. This was 
actually proposed in the US about 12 years ago after a tragic mishap 
but  no more was heard after someone pointed out that nobody in his 
or her right mind would sign.


Mike

Borgelt Instruments - design & manufacture of quality soaring 
instrumentation since 1978

www.borgeltinstruments.com
tel:   07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784
mob: 042835 5784 :  int+61-42835 5784
P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia

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Re: [Aus-soaring] The nationals: a proposal

[Ian Mc Phee]

My 20c worth is I think I prefer multiple start points and about half my
comp flying was in the the VNE 1000m start line which was bordering on
dangerous.

As for finishing I really like the 2 or 3 km circle at say 1000ft. I have
been at a German comps years ago and they had well over 100 gliders and all
finishes were 3km out at 300 m I seem to remember. They also had a well
ordered landing procedures and only one main strip.  I was impressed.

I think the last out & return was set in nationals about 1970 and cats
cradles continued on for about another 10years., With new tasks being set
with haste on the grid this conflicting directions must be thought about &
usually is. .

Ian mcphee
On 15/02/2014 3:19 PM, "Mike Borgelt" 
wrote:

>  At 05:46 PM 14/02/2014, you wrote:
>
> I agree completely with Tim. We should all use the same rules worldwide.
>
> So the only other question that needs answering is when is the rest of the
> world going to change to our well thought out multiple allocated start
> points and 3km finish circles. And while they are changing their rules,
> they can mandate that all pilots use low tow as well.
>
> Can you still be World Champion if you declare a Lay day 48 hrs in advance?
>
>
>
>
> And they should all mandate two signatures after rigging. This was
> actually proposed in the US about 12 years ago after a tragic mishap but
> no more was heard after someone pointed out that nobody in his or her right
> mind would sign.
>
> Mike
>
>  *Borgelt Instruments* -
> *design & manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 *
> www.borgeltinstruments.com
> tel:   07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784
> mob: 042835 5784 :  int+61-42835 5784
> P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia
>
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Re: [Aus-soaring] NSWGA CAGIT

[Christopher McDonnell]

Bordertown, Murray Bridge then Whyalla.
Long way back to NSW 

From: Jarek Mosiejewski 
Sent: Saturday, February 15, 2014 2:51 PM
To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' 
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] NSWGA CAGIT

It is now in Ararat:

 

Grampians gliding club Members Trevor Hancock and Darren Ford, supported by 
retrieve driver Barry Ford claiming the NSWGA CAGIT from Ian Cohn, Vice 
President of MBGC, on Saturday 8th of February having flown around 400km to Mt 
Beauty from Ararat.

 

 

From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net 
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of 
jar...@optusnet.com.au
Sent: Tuesday, 7 January 2014 9:37 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Cc: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] NSWGA CAGIT

 

Bacchus Mars (Geelong Gliding Club) after taking it from Raywood:
http://www.bendigogliding.org.au/Main/ClubNews
 
Regards 
Jarek


  - Original Message -

  From:

  "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." 


   

  To:

  "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." 


  Cc:

  "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." 


  Sent:

  Tue, 7 Jan 2014 19:39:51 +1100

  Subject:

  [Aus-soaring] NSWGA CAGIT



  Can anybody please tell me where the NSWGA's Come And Get It Trophy is right 
now? Thanks 




Email sent using Optus Webmail




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Re: [Aus-soaring] The nationals: a proposal

[Mike Borgelt]

At 05:46 PM 14/02/2014, you wrote:

I agree completely with Tim. We should all use the same rules worldwide.

So the only other question that needs answering is when is the rest 
of the world going to change to our well thought out multiple 
allocated start points and 3km finish circles. And while they are 
changing their rules, they can mandate that all pilots use low tow as well.


Can you still be World Champion if you declare a Lay day 48 hrs in advance?




And they should all mandate two signatures after rigging. This was 
actually proposed in the US about 12 years ago after a tragic mishap 
but  no more was heard after someone pointed out that nobody in his 
or her right mind would sign.


Mike

Borgelt Instruments - design & manufacture of quality soaring 
instrumentation since 1978

www.borgeltinstruments.com
tel:   07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784
mob: 042835 5784:  int+61-42835 5784
P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia  ___
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Simultaneous Record Claims

[Mike Borgelt]

At 11:14 AM 15/02/2014, you wrote:

Gliding is no longer a sport conducted individually in private, and 
never will be again.







Well, contests have obviously never been and records maybe not now 
but self launching motorgliders put the lie to your assertion.



Mike






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instrumentation since 1978

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Re: [Aus-soaring] Simultaneous Record Claims

[Tim Shirley]

Well said Simon,

It is certainly true that we have no information as to how much 
assistance has been given to any other pilot who holds an exiting 
record, at any level.


One of the problems with records is that if you change the rules under 
which they are flown you effectively invalidate all existing records in 
that category because they were not flown under the same conditions.


The rules for records are set down in the FAI Sporting Code, and can 
only be changed at international level.  It's not a decision we can take 
in Australia.


Banning external help and information is a pretty futile exercise these 
days.  Radios, phones, tablets, flarms, GPS, transponders, etc etc.  You 
don't need to be wingtip to wingtip, or even in visual range, to assist 
another glider.  If we don't know everything there is to be known, it is 
only the depth of our wallets and the capacity of batteries that 
prevents it.


Gliding is no longer a sport conducted individually in private, and 
never will be again.


Congrats to Matt and Allan.  And I look forward to Simon's imminent 
return to our sport :)




Cheers

/Tim Shirley/

/tra dire é fare c' é mezzo il mare/

On 15/02/2014 08:28, Simon Hackett wrote:
Just to provide a contrasting point of view - perhaps we don't need to 
'fix' this until we're really in a position to decide that it is 
broken (and I don't think, right now, that we are).


We could start by considering what these records exist for, and hence 
what they are presumably there to inspire (i.e. to inspire others to 
do more of the same, surely).


... else why bother recording them at all?

If this sort of practice is consistent with the current rules, and 
opens up the potential to push the sport into a new frontier in 
record-breaking speeds/distances/times, well, I personally reckon 
'good on them, and go for it'. Its not as if any of them are doing it 
for the money.


Congratulations to the two pilots concerned for trying (and 
succeeding) with something new.


It certainly reminds me that my own cross country achievements fall 
very far behind theirs (having allowed other forms of aviation to gain 
my attention in preference to soaring for the last few years). Hence 
their efforts tickle at the notion, for me, that maybe I should go out 
there and try a bit harder myself. Isn't that sort of inspiration 
going to be a win (for the sport)?


To be clear - I do appreciate, and agree, that pair-flying is likely 
to generate higher performance results than doing it alone. Some other 
sports consider this a normal part of the process (e.g. team-based 
competitive cycling).


If anything, perhaps this practice may be a rationale for us to keep a 
'leader board' of the top 'x' flights in a given record category 
rather than merely having a single current 'best' on our (electronic) 
books - precisely because in a pairs-flying exercise, normally the 
efforts of the '#2" pilot are probably not recorded at all at this 
point - and its not as if that '#2' pilot didn't (also) 'do the work' 
to get all the way around the intended flight path.


Last thought - with the exception of this remarkable effort in 
generating the exact same time by both pilots, who is to say how many 
other existing records were actually based on team-flying practices, 
but simply not recorded as such (due to a lack of mechanism with which 
to record it)?


If we don't have a way to record that practice, how do we know that 
this actually *is* the first time this has been done as a part of a 
record flight claim?


That really brings me back to where I began with this set of thoughts 
- if its not broken, perhaps it isn't actually something we need to 
fix. More flying better, right?


Regards,
 Simon




On 14 Feb 2014, at 12:40 pm, Peter (PCS3) > wrote:


As an non-involved-with-records glider pilot, I would have thought 
that team flying should have its own set of records. As flying as a 
team, especially in the blue would give them an unfair advantage over 
a solo pilot .

PeterS
On 12/02/2014 9:47 AM, Pam wrote:
GFA has received the following record claims for the Australian 
National Standard Class 750km triangle speed record:

>>
Category: General
Class:Standard
Type of record:750km triangle speed
Location:West Wyalong
Performance:134.01 kph
Pilot:Matt gage
Glider:LS8/15m
Date:8/2/2014
>>
Category: General
Sub-classStandard
Type of record : Speed over a 750km triangle
Course/location : West Wyalong Aerodrome, NSW ( Australia ) - TP1`- 
Conargo and return

Performance :134.01km/hr
Pilot : Allan Barnes
Glider : LS8/15mRegistration:VH-NSZ
Date : 08 Feb 2014


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Re: [Aus-soaring] Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 125, Issue 48

[Richard Frawley]

Or you can get a better system that does not need you to cycle thru them at 
all!!! Fly thru any one and you start

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 14, 2014, at 13:55, aus-soaring-requ...@lists.internode.on.net wrote:
> 
> Send Aus-soaring mailing list submissions to
>aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
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> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Aus-soaring digest..."
> 
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>   1. FW: FYI (Future Aviation)
>   2. Re: The nationals: a proposal (rolf a. buelter)
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2014 07:14:21 +1030
> From: "Future Aviation" 
> Subject: [Aus-soaring] FW: FYI
> To: "'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'"
>
> Message-ID: <000d01cf29c5$89ca33e0$9d5e9ba0$@on.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain;charset="us-ascii"
> 
> Good morning all!
> 
> If you are interested there is a nice video of the new 
> ASH 30 Mi Open Class 2-seater on this website. 
> 
> http://www.australian-soaring-corowa.com/latest.php
> 
> Please enjoy!
> 
> Bernard
> 
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2014 07:55:21 +1100
> From: "rolf a. buelter" 
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] The nationals: a proposal
> To: aus soaring 
> Message-ID: 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
> 
> Jarek,
> 
> get with the times and use a program which lets you enter any number of start 
> points and then one tap on the screen to cycle through them. I ditched the 
> Garmin years ago and am still not for start lines.
> 
> Rgds - Rolf
> 
> To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
> From: jar...@optusnet.com.au
> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2014 14:21:15 +1100
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] The nationals: a proposal
> 
> Hi,
> 
>> From my observations, the most vocal opponents of using start line are the 
>> pilots who still use instruments that do not allow visualisation of the 
>> start line (i.e. Garmins, Cambridge 20 etc.) but only show the distance to 
>> the centre point of the line.
> 
> Also, consider what has to happens if the pilot changes her / his decision 
> with regard to the one of the allocated points before the start.  How many 
> clicks / touches within the navigation program are required to switch from 
> one point to another and where are the pilot eyes while she / he performing 
> this operation... certainly not  outside maintaining good lookout.
> 
> With the WinPilot, it is just one click between the two pre-nominated start 
> points, but if I want to change to the third one, I need to do no less than 5 
> clicks and navigate through 3 different screens, you do not get such problems 
> with the start line.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Jarek
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." 
> 
> To:"Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." 
> 
> Cc:
> Sent:Fri, 14 Feb 2014 13:29:27 +1100
> Subject:Re: [Aus-soaring] The nationals: a proposal
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi All,
> 
> 
> 
> Some interesting comments from Matthew.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> His comment in the first paragraph re Tocumwal, is actually a
> very good reason supporting the  use of  allocated start points. 
> With 2/3rds of the points out, what we have is 1/3 usable. EVERY  pilot still
> has one start point available in the soarable part of the start area. This is 
>  adequate.
> Contrast this to the hypothetical situation where the one and only (per 
> class) start
> line has been set up in the unsoarable part of the sky.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In the nature of the beast, it is somewhat unlikely that
> increasing the length of a start line from 10k to 20 k is going to improve
> safety very much, if at all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Multiple class pre-start gaggling can be minimized with well set
> tasks, in which it is essential (if the task is to be completed), for each
> class to get going soon after the opening of their gate. The trend to 
> under-set
> tasks at Australian competitions continues.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Comments in the last two paragraphs are noted.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is an idea that to my knowledge has NOT been thrown into
> the ring to date.  The idea is to use allocated multiple start lines, with
> a possible length of say 2-5k. I have not really thought about all the 
> possible
> ramifications, and whether or not it would actually achieve anything positive,
> but perhaps it is at least worth considering.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gary
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
> [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.interno

Re: [Aus-soaring] FW: FYI

[Future Aviation]

Hi Peter

Please let me correct you on that.
For engine cooling purposes the prop remains in a semi reclined position
for a short while. It fully retracts automatically when the temperature 
drops to a preset value. 

Kind regards

Bernard

-Original Message-
From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Peter
(PCS3)
Sent: Saturday, 15 February 2014 7:37 AM
To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] FW: FYI

Great video, Bernard but I noticed that the prop had not been properly
retracted and the pilots could not see it. :-( PeterS

On 15/02/2014 6:44 AM, Future Aviation wrote:
> Good morning all!
>
> If you are interested there is a nice video of the new ASH 30 Mi Open 
> Class 2-seater on this website.
>
> http://www.australian-soaring-corowa.com/latest.php
>
> Please enjoy!
>
> Bernard
>
> ___
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>

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Re: [Aus-soaring] Simultaneous Record Claims

[Simon Hackett]

Just to provide a contrasting point of view - perhaps we don't need to 'fix' 
this until we're really in a position to decide that it is broken (and I don't 
think, right now, that we are).  

We could start by considering what these records exist for, and hence what they 
are presumably there to inspire (i.e. to inspire others to do more of the same, 
surely). 

... else why bother recording them at all?

If this sort of practice is consistent with the current rules, and opens up the 
potential to push the sport into a new frontier in record-breaking 
speeds/distances/times, well, I personally reckon 'good on them, and go for 
it'. Its not as if any of them are doing it for the money. 

Congratulations to the two pilots concerned for trying (and succeeding) with 
something new. 

It certainly reminds me that my own cross country achievements fall very far 
behind theirs (having allowed other forms of aviation to gain my attention in 
preference to soaring for the last few years). Hence their efforts tickle at 
the notion, for me, that maybe I should go out there and try a bit harder 
myself. Isn't that sort of inspiration going to be a win (for the sport)?

To be clear - I do appreciate, and agree, that pair-flying is likely to 
generate higher performance results than doing it alone. Some other sports 
consider this a normal part of the process (e.g. team-based competitive 
cycling).

If anything, perhaps this practice may be a rationale for us to keep a 'leader 
board' of the top 'x' flights in a given record category rather than merely 
having a single current 'best' on our (electronic) books - precisely because in 
a pairs-flying exercise, normally the efforts of the '#2" pilot are probably 
not recorded at all at this point - and its not as if that '#2' pilot didn't 
(also) 'do the work' to get all the way around the intended flight path. 

Last thought - with the exception of this remarkable effort in generating the 
exact same time by both pilots, who is to say how many other existing records 
were actually based on team-flying practices, but simply not recorded as such 
(due to a lack of mechanism with which to record it)? 

If we don't have a way to record that practice, how do we know that this 
actually *is* the first time this has been done as a part of a record flight 
claim? 

That really brings me back to where I began with this set of thoughts - if its 
not broken, perhaps it isn't actually something we need to fix. More flying 
better, right? 

Regards, 
 Simon




On 14 Feb 2014, at 12:40 pm, Peter (PCS3)  wrote:

> As an non-involved-with-records glider pilot, I would have thought that team 
> flying should have its own set of records. As flying as a team, especially in 
> the blue would give them an unfair advantage over a solo pilot .
> PeterS
> On 12/02/2014 9:47 AM, Pam wrote:
>> GFA has received the following record claims for the Australian National 
>> Standard Class 750km triangle speed record:
>> >> 
>> Category: General
>> Class: Standard
>> Type of record: 750km triangle speed
>> Location: West Wyalong
>> Performance: 134.01 kph
>> Pilot: Matt gage
>> Glider: LS8/15m
>> Date: 8/2/2014
>> >> 
>> Category: General
>> Sub-class Standard 
>> Type of record : Speed over a 750km triangle 
>> Course/location : West Wyalong Aerodrome, NSW ( Australia ) - TP1`- Conargo 
>> and return 
>> Performance : 134.01 km/hr
>> Pilot : Allan Barnes
>> Glider : LS8/15mRegistration: VH-NSZ
>> Date : 08 Feb 2014
>>  
>>  
>> 
>> 
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Re: [Aus-soaring] FW: FYI

[Peter (PCS3)]

Great video, Bernard but I noticed that the prop had not been properly 
retracted and the pilots could not see it. :-(

PeterS

On 15/02/2014 6:44 AM, Future Aviation wrote:

Good morning all!

If you are interested there is a nice video of the new
ASH 30 Mi Open Class 2-seater on this website.

http://www.australian-soaring-corowa.com/latest.php

Please enjoy!

Bernard

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[Aus-soaring] FW: FYI

[Future Aviation]

Good morning all!

If you are interested there is a nice video of the new 
ASH 30 Mi Open Class 2-seater on this website. 

http://www.australian-soaring-corowa.com/latest.php

Please enjoy!

Bernard

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