Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: different names same person
Hi Doug, I didn't make myself clear.. The GEDCOM standard (and most genealogy programs) allow you to add an aliaas. You're the one combining them all into one with 'ou/or' which your genealogy program will not understand. In the case you mentioned (Ana Maria ou Ana Bernarda ou Ana de SIMAS ou Ana PEREIRA de SIMAS), I'd list her with all these names, without the 'ou' in the following way: 1 NAME Ana /de Simas/ 1 NAME Ana /Pereira, de Simas/ 2 TYPE aka 1 NAME Ana Maria 2 TYPE aka 1 NAME Ana Bernarda 2 TYPE aka That's assuming she used 'Ana de Simas' as her 'marriage' name or the one she used most often for her children's baptisms. Regards, João C. Ventura On Wednesday, November 13, 2013 11:04:32 AM UTC+1, Doug da Rocha Holmes wrote: Olá João, You make a good point about the length of the name and it certainly can get long. And yes, printing it out might be a problem. My viewpoint is based on searches to see if I already have one particular person in my database already. I believe I have already explained it before, but I'll try to be brief here. If I have a couple named in a baptism such as Manuel de Sousa and Maria da Conceição and I want see if I already have them in my database, I do a search for a couple by these names. If found, and if they are from the right place and time frame, I decide if they are the right couple found in this baptism. If I don't find them, I might add them in as the parents of the child in the baptism. So the problem is when the wife is using a different name. Like you said, at marriage she might have used one name, her marriage name maybe something like Maria Inácia do Coração de Jesus, but never again used that Coração de Jesus ending. I liken that to what you seem to be calling her marriage name. It's just a fancy way to show her devotion, or something, but never really was her name (perhaps). If she was married with Maria de Jesus and I found her using Maria da Conceição, I might end up having a duplicate couple - at least for a while until I do more research and realize the mistake. So if I record her as Maria da Conceição ou Maria de Jesus (and make a note for her that explains where each name was found in which record), when I do my search for any couple named Manuel de Sousa and Maria da Conceição, this couple shows up and I don't create a duplicate entry for them. I realize that this situation might never apply to someone who records only direct ancestors and their immediate families. But for me, I am always trying to find ways to make sure I have just one entry for a person. Out of curiosity, I did a real search for a couple by these names and I have 14 of them. I have 1387 women named Maria de Jesus so far. So far I have 393 named José Inácio. I have 75 named João Caetano. :-) I also notice that if a woman had a child out of wedlock, and the father is listed as pai incógnito, the chances are pretty good that she is going to be listed with a different version of her name if she ever ends up getting married. So often the variation reflects a different time in her life. Take a look at this lady and her name variations. She remained single: Ana Maria ou Ana Bernarda ou Ana de SIMAS ou Ana PEREIRA de SIMAS She was the godmother for many people over the years and so far I have found four ways she was named. This is a little extraordinary, of course. Most of the time, there is maybe just variation. If combined into one, I suppose someone might call her Ana Maria Bernarda Pereira de Simas, even though that exact name was never found for her. There is no right or wrong way to record them. Just keep them organized in whatever way works for each researcher. If someone were to record a couple as Manuel Bettencourt and Maria dos Anjos and I record them as Manuel de Bettencourt and Maria dos Anjos, my use of de for the husband is not going to throw anyone off. Doug da Rocha Holmes Sacramento, California Pico Terceira Genealogist 916-550-1618 www.dholmes.com Original Message Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: different names same person From: João_Ventura jo...@venturas.org javascript: Date: Wed, November 13, 2013 1:04 am To: azo...@googlegroups.com javascript: Cc: Edward Rodrigues edward.s@att.net javascript: Hi Edward, I'm afraid to disagree with both Doug and Cheri, as their experience is a lot better than mine.. First of, it's a bit necessary to distinguish men from women here. Men's names change very rarely. Women's names are more fluid.. I'm not even sure there was a good concept of a female surname back in the 19th. century or before. I usually consider that the most reliable names would be the one they'd declare themselves during their wedding. At any other time, they're either too young (baptism), or deceased (death) to be able to provide correct information. Their children's birth record are usually
RE: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: different names same person
Hi Joao,I am just wondering if you enter in alternate names and then do a name search, will those alternate names be included in that search?My program has no alternate names option like you describe. There is something for maiden names/married names.I am hoping that the method I am using will also make it easier to print out for the books I will publish. I haven't tested it for that purpose yet, since I am decades away from publishing anything.Doug da Rocha HolmesSacramento, CaliforniaPico Terceira Genealogist916-550-1618www.dholmes.com Original Message Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: different names same person From: João_Ventura j...@venturas.org Date: Thu, November 14, 2013 1:21 am To: azores@googlegroups.com Hi Doug,I didn't make myself clear.. The GEDCOM standard (and most genealogy programs) allow you to add an aliaas. You're the one combining them all into one with 'ou/or' which your genealogy program will not understand.In the case you mentioned (Ana Maria ou Ana Bernarda ou Ana de SIMAS ou Ana PEREIRA de SIMAS), I'd list her with all these names, without the 'ou' in the following way:1 NAME Ana /de Simas/1 NAME Ana /Pereira, de Simas/2 TYPE aka1 NAME Ana Maria2 TYPE aka1 NAME Ana Bernarda2 TYPE akaThat's assuming she used 'Ana de Simas' as her 'marriage' name or the one she used most often for her children's baptisms.Regards,João C. Ventura -- For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that says Join this group and it will take you to Edit my membership. --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Azores Genealogy group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to azores+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to azores@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/azores.
RE: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: different names same person
Hi Joao,Interesting. Is that how your program looks? I see it's how your webpage looks.My program is Brother's Keeper. I've stuck with it since the beginning of my research in 1990.When you generate a report like a family group, will those name variants appear like that, if you set it up for that? That's the ultimate need for me, because I don't want to have to dig up all variations once I am ready to start compiling the books.And also, can you search for a couple like Joao Ventura and Julieta do Rosario and get all variations of Julieta in that search? I can search for any couple named Inacio Jose and Maria Jose ou Maria da Conceicao and get all named Manuel Jose and Maria Jose to show up in my search results. I would expect any program should do this, but it can't be taken for granted.Obrigado,Doug da Rocha HolmesSacramento, CaliforniaPico Terceira Genealogist916-550-1618www.dholmes.com Original Message Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: different names same person From: João_Ventura j...@venturas.org Date: Thu, November 14, 2013 4:53 am To: azores@googlegroups.com Hi Doug,Of course, the alternate names will show up. They also show up in the individual record. You can try yourself, go tohttp://venturas.org/familytree/search.php, and search 'Julieta'. You'll get one hit: my grandmother, which used two names (Julieta da Ascenção and Julieta do Rosário Ventura).Which program do you use that doesn't allow for name aliases? -- For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that says Join this group and it will take you to Edit my membership. --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Azores Genealogy group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to azores+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to azores@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/azores.
RE: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: different names same person
Wow, Joao. You win the prize with that example.I would have to be very careful to consider her as the same person as Francisca when she used Maria. I wonder if it's a question of the priest making an error. I have seen many times when as a grandmother, the priest listed the wrong first name in the baptism of a grandchild.Anyway, nice to hear from you. Hope you are doing well.Doug da Rocha HolmesSacramento, CaliforniaPico Terceira Genealogist916-550-1618www.dholmes.com Original Message Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: different names same person From: "Joao S. Lopes" josim...@yahoo.com.br Date: Thu, November 14, 2013 6:21 am To: "azores@googlegroups.com" azores@googlegroups.com Until XIX Century, this name alternance was very usual. I have an ancestress in Brazil (XVIII Century), that was called Francisca Maria de Jesus, Francisca Silveira da Rosa, Francisca da Rosa Silveira, Maria Francisca de Jesus, Francisco Antonia de Jesus and Francisca Antonia da Luz. Usually, first name doesn't change.Joao S. LopesBrazil -- For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that says Join this group and it will take you to Edit my membership. --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Azores Genealogy group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to azores+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to azores@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/azores.
RE: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: different names same person
That's very helpful, Cheri.Maybe it won't be as bad as I imagined.I bet you don't know every program all list members are using. And if you never used BK, don't be so sure you wouldn't like it.But I will do some testing and see if I can export/import a gedcom with minimal alteration from the original.Doug da Rocha HolmesSacramento, CaliforniaPico Terceira Genealogist916-550-1618www.dholmes.com -- For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that says Join this group and it will take you to Edit my membership. --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Azores Genealogy group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to azores+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to azores@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/azores.
RE: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: different names same person
Olá João,You make a good point about the length of the name and it certainly can get long.And yes, printing it out might be a problem.My viewpoint is based on searches to see if I already have one particular person in my database already.I believe I have already explained it before, but I'll try to be brief here.If I have a couple named in a baptism such as Manuel de Sousa and Maria da Conceição and I want see if I already have them in my database, I do a search for a couple by these names. If found, and if they are from the right place and time frame, I decide if they are the right couple found in this baptism.If I don't find them, I might add them in as the parents of the child in the baptism.So the problem is when the wife is using a different name. Like you said, at marriage she might have used one name, her "marriage name" maybe something like Maria Inácia do Coração de Jesus, but never again used that Coração de Jesus ending. I liken that to what you seem to be calling her marriage name. It's just a fancy way to show her devotion, or something, but never really was her name (perhaps).If she was married with Maria de Jesus and I found her using Maria da Conceição, I might end up having a duplicate couple - at least for a while until I do more research and realize the mistake.So if I record her as Maria da Conceição ou Maria de Jesus (and make a note for her that explains where each name was found in which record), when I do my search for any couple named Manuel de Sousa and Maria da Conceição, this couple shows up and I don't create a duplicate entry for them.I realize that this situation might never apply to someone who records only direct ancestors and their immediate families. But for me, I am always trying to find ways to make sure I have just one entry for a person.Out of curiosity, I did a real search for a couple by these names and I have 14 of them. I have 1387 women named Maria de Jesus so far. So far I have 393 named José Inácio. I have 75 named João Caetano. :-)I also notice that if a woman had a child out of wedlock, and the father is listed as pai incógnito, the chances are pretty good that she is going to be listed with a different version of her name if she ever ends up getting married. So often the variation reflects a different time in her life.Take a look at this lady and her name variations. She remained single:Ana Maria ou Ana Bernarda ou Ana de SIMAS ou Ana PEREIRA de SIMASShe was the godmother for many people over the years and so far I have found four ways she was named.This is a little extraordinary, of course. Most of the time, there is maybe just variation.If combined into one, I suppose someone might call her Ana Maria Bernarda Pereira de Simas, even though that exact name was never found for her.There is no right or wrong way to record them. Just keep them organized in whatever way works for each researcher.If someone were to record a couple as Manuel Bettencourt and Maria dos Anjos and I record them as Manuel de Bettencourt and Maria dos Anjos, my use of "de" for the husband is not going to throw anyone off.Doug da Rocha HolmesSacramento, CaliforniaPico Terceira Genealogist916-550-1618www.dholmes.com Original Message ---- Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: different names same person From: João_Ventura j...@venturas.org Date: Wed, November 13, 2013 1:04 am To: azores@googlegroups.com Cc: Edward Rodrigues edward.s.rodrig...@att.net Hi Edward,I'm afraid to disagree with both Doug and Cheri, as their experience is a lot better than mine..First of, it's a bit necessary to distinguish men from women here. Men's names change very rarely. Women's names are more fluid.. I'm not even sure there was a good concept of a female surname back in the 19th. century or before. I usually consider that the most reliable names would be the one they'd declare themselves during their wedding. At any other time, they're either too young (baptism), or deceased (death) to be able to provide correct information. Their children's birth record are usually accurate in the parent's names but this is also the time when women's 'surname-in-flux' can best be seen. Sometimes it's their wedding surname, other times it's her father's or her mother's surname that gets used.However the part I disagree is using the 'or/ou'. Most genealogy programs will allow you to provide alternative versions of the name. Use your best judgement to choose a primary surname, but then list all the names you can find for them, like their married name or their 'americanized' name. Using the 'or/ou' will actually make their name a mess from a computer system point of view.João C. VenturaOn Tuesday, November 12, 2013 10:59:08 PM UTC+1, Doug da Rocha Holmes wrote:Hi Edward,I have mentioned it once or twice.Like Cheri says, I recommend using "or" between both name versions if they immigrated.But if they never left Portugal, I suggest using the Portuguese word "ou&qu
Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: different names same person
I write Alexandrina Gaspar Pereira or Angelina Pereira Lopes. But before I even do that, I'd collect every record that mentions her name and try to determine which one is her real name. I get her baptism, her marriage, and all of her kids' baptisms. And her death too. Then sometimes it becomes apparent as to what her name really is. Then that's the name I use. Cheri Mello Listowner, Azores-Gen Researching: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada -- For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that says Join this group and it will take you to Edit my membership. --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Azores Genealogy group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to azores+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to azores@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/azores.
RE: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: different names same person
Hi Edward,I have mentioned it once or twice.Like Cheri says, I recommend using "or" between both name versions if they immigrated.But if they never left Portugal, I suggest using the Portuguese word "ou" - though it makes no real difference and if the people in your family are language handicapped (don't know a word of Portuguese) then maybe just stick with English.Having said that, are you certain Alexandrina is the same person as Angelina? They are both Portuguese names and my first thought is that maybe they are two different people.Doug da Rocha HolmesSacramento, CaliforniaPico Terceira Genealogist916-550-1618www.dholmes.com Original Message Subject: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: different names same person From: Edward Rodrigues edward.s.rodrig...@att.net Date: Tue, November 12, 2013 12:05 pm To: "azores@googlegroups.com" azores@googlegroups.com From: Edward Rodrigues izac...@att.net To: "azores@googlegroups.com" azores@googlegroups.com Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 12:01 PM Subject: different names same personA few weeks back someone mentioned how they do not combine a names of a person. They display both way the name is presented separate. I believe they put somethingbetween the names. I am hoping someone could advise me the best way. exampleAlexandrina Gaspar Pereira Angelina Pereira Lopesbefore I just put Angelina Alexandrina Gaspar Lopes PereiraI thought I had saved the post but cannot find it now but would like to start saving information that way to avoid confusion.Edward -- For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that says Join this group and it will take you to Edit my membership. --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Azores Genealogy group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to azores+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to azores@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/azores.
