[backstage] Guardian article about iPhone iPlayer
Thought that people might find this interesting: http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/mar/13/digitalvideo.television S - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Guardian article about iPhone iPlayer
On Thursday 13 March 2008 12:25:38 Steve Jolly wrote: Thought that people might find this interesting: http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/mar/13/digitalvideo.television S And the BBC reply: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7293988.stm signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
On 08/03/2008, Dave Crossland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Will the user agent DRM will be made stronger? It *appears* that it has. People are reporting 403 on any non-iPhone request. So even if you have an MP4 capable phone you now need an iPhone. It could be that MP4 has now broken (I don't have an iPhone) However if the BBC are locking content artificially to the iPhone the Trust may not be happy. Didn't they rule iPlayer be platform agnostic? Did the BBC get authorisation from the trust to scan for and block all devices not on a specific list? -- Computers are like air conditioners. Both stop working, if you open windows. -- Adam Heath - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Guardian article about iPhone iPlayer
Well, H.264/AAC is great for preventing technically challenged Windows users from avoiding DRM, since it is used by everybody worldwide with one exception... Microsoft Media Player. Well, WMP supports MPEG-1, that's already something. H.264/AAC *is* supported in the Xbox, which has a magnetic field around it to prevent any connection to a computer (joke) Sean On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 1:38 PM, Andy Halsall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thursday 13 March 2008 12:25:38 Steve Jolly wrote: Thought that people might find this interesting: http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/mar/13/digitalvideo.television S And the BBC reply: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7293988.stm - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
On 13/03/2008, Andy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It *appears* that it has. Confirmed. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7293988.stm Anyone know Nokia's head of legals phone number? Or Google's? Or Samsung? Or LG? Or Sony? Or any other mobile phone vendor? Can the BBC really hope to survive the potential legal onslaught these vendors could bring? The trust have already ruled iPlayer must be made platform agnostic, the BBC have not only failed to do this but they have now acted directly against it (scanning for and blocking products not from approved vendors even if they posses the technical capabilities needed). Andy -- Computers are like air conditioners. Both stop working, if you open windows. -- Adam Heath - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
On 13/03/2008, Andy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 08/03/2008, Dave Crossland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Will the user agent DRM will be made stronger? It *appears* that it has. People are reporting 403 on any non-iPhone request. So even if you have an MP4 capable phone you now need an iPhone. It could be that MP4 has now broken (I don't have an iPhone) I can confirm this; the User Agent Switching/Firebug method that Matt Lee posted on his blog no longer works. -- Regards, Dave - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
On 13/03/2008, Andy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 13/03/2008, Andy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It *appears* that it has. Confirmed. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7293988.stm Anyone know Nokia's head of legals phone number? Or Google's? Or Samsung? Or LG? Or Sony? Or any other mobile phone vendor? Can the BBC really hope to survive the potential legal onslaught these vendors could bring? The trust have already ruled iPlayer must be made platform agnostic, the BBC have not only failed to do this but they have now acted directly against it (scanning for and blocking products not from approved vendors even if they posses the technical capabilities needed). I don't think that kind of onslaugh is likely. Instead, I think the illegal state aid angle that the Open Source Consortium is pushing has another sharp arrow in its quiver :-) The BBC is happy to dish out illegal state aid to Microsoft with the WEAK excuse that its desktop operating system is the most popular one, and it will serve the largest market sectors first. And now the BBC is dishing out illegal state aid to Apple, which is tiny player, especially in the mobile space - despite that it has good production design and public relations departments, which makes it appear way bigger than it is. But as long as the BBC managers who decide policy - which is a few very number of individuals indeed, Ashley Highfield being the main one AFAICT - think that the issue is popularity of platform instead of software freedom, the BBC will continue to dish out state aid to all the major players (I suppose Nokia will be next) and mutilate the ability of small players and startups to compete in the market. I suppose that if those policy makers used a GNU+Linux computer with only free software, they might see the problem first hand. But I will speculate that when Jono Bacon installed Ubuntu on Ashley Highfield's laptop a couple of weeks ago, he installed the proprietary Adobe Flash player. Having the proprietary Adobe Flash player installed suggests to a user that iPlayer works on GNU+Linux, and there is no problem in support for users of that OS. To conclude, the BBC cannot roll out a platform agnostic solution that doesn't include giving illegal state aid, because to be platform agnostic requires free software, and when the BBC agrees to use DRM it agrees to give out illegal state aid. In my opinion. -- Regards, Dave This is personal opinion only, not the views of any employers past or present. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 12:59 PM, Andy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 13/03/2008, Andy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It *appears* that it has. Confirmed. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7293988.stm Anyone know Nokia's head of legals phone number? Or Google's? Or Samsung? Or LG? Or Sony? Or any other mobile phone vendor? Can the BBC really hope to survive the potential legal onslaught these vendors could bring? The trust have already ruled iPlayer must be made platform agnostic, the BBC have not only failed to do this but they have now acted directly against it (scanning for and blocking products not from approved vendors even if they posses the technical capabilities needed). Andy Agreeing with Andy shocker! Not sure I've got time to poke around with this today, but does anyone know what they're doing? Are they just sending a cookie over? I notice there's now an ID in the MP4 URL. Iain - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
Not sure I've got time to poke around with this today, but does anyone know what they're doing? Are they just sending a cookie over? I notice there's now an ID in the MP4 URL. OK, here's my guess: It's another combination of User Agent and cookies. Just having a quick look at Wireshark, there's an incredibly conspicuous BBC-UID cookie which contains a large hex number followed by the Quicktime version (including OS identifier). I don't believe that the MP4 URL served on the page is actually any different to the one that working iPhone users will see, I think it just looks at that cookie. I imagine the cookie contains some kind of hash of whatever client data the agent sends over. Anyone want to upload a packet trace from an iPhone or Touch? ;) - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
OK, so the BBC has decided to use something more involved than a simple user agent check to determine whether it will serve up standards compliant and non DRM encumbered media to a client. Fair enough. What I still find rather confusing is that, short of using whatever DRM capabilities the iPhone has, they will still be streaming DRM free content to a single platform, something that is likely to be circumventable by other clients soon. Not only that, but the BBC article I posted a link for earlier plainly states that the iPlayer DRM used to protect the downloaded content for Windows is also broken, so in effect supplying DRM encumbered media to a windows client is the same as providing DRM free content (the difference is when the removal of or circumvention of protective measures is carried out). So the BBC is claiming it is not permissible for it to make non-DRM content that it has licensed available, but is doing so and doing so in a manner that makes that content only available to a device (th iPhone) that comes from a single vendor and has a very small market share (I wont go into depth here to draw parallels with reasons given for Linux support as they are self evident). The BBC are also making media available for download to another single vendor provided platform (a vendor that has faced and is facing further anti-trust action in the EU). In the latter case the media is encumbered with DRM, but that DRM has been broken. So in effect the BBC are giving a competitive edge to two commercial entities, one of which is already in hot water for using suspect practices to maintain their dominance, apparently on the basis that that is the only way to protect the media, but without any real protective measures in either case. (I cant remember what happened to the slew of / rumoured anti-trust cases against apple for its pricing, hardware tie-ins and failure to licence FairPlay or I would mention these too.) Now, I am sure that fairly soon the method being used to 'protect' the iPhone specific DRM free content will be identified and circumvented, some people would probably be happy with that as a solution. I would however suggest that using such workarounds will be detrimental. The BBC needs to either provide a platform agnostic DRM capable player (I would even add the fantasy requirement for it to be unbreakable DRM), or resolve its licensing issues (or something else). Earlier in the week a number of people posted references to a BBC blog that seemed to indicate that DRM free, standards compliant media would be available to mobile devices (regardless of type) as long as they were capable of displaying such media in a satisfactory manner, I would rather like to know if that is still the case and how the BBC is going to justify becoming a very nice marketing tool for a select number of device providers (without cost to those providers!). I would be half tempted to suggest that the BBC's best option at this point in time would be to remove the Windows and iPhone specific iPlayer capabilities (others would probably advocate getting rid of the flash player as well, but at least that is marginally more portable, even if it is not open) and wait until they have a solution that does not favour one or more commercial entities, basically what is something that is based on open standards and platform agnostic. Now, I really shouldn't be getting side-tracked by this list as often as I am... Thanks. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
OK, here's my guess: I'm reasonably sure this has in fact now been hacked, but with the BBC most likely facing a cat and mouse game with hackers intent on circumventing copy protection. is it worth our exposing how it's done? Phil - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
On Thursday 13 March 2008 13:55:50 Iain Wallace wrote: ... User Agent ... cookies. ... Wireshark, ... BBC-UID cookie ... large hex number ... Quicktime version (including OS identifier). ... MP4 URL ... cookie contains some kind of hash ... client data ... agent sends over. ... upload a packet trace from an iPhone or Touch? ;) So you are one of those dastardly hackers exploiting the BBC's security measures Seriously though, Whilst identifying what mechanism is being used to more accurately identify the platform making the request for the mp4 is going to be necessary for anyone who wants to carry on using a workaround to get hold of usable media (and frankly someone should do it even if it is just to point out that this kind of 'protection' is unlikely to work) I would much rather the BBC skimpy clarified their position and then abided by whatever rules they claim restricts their ability to stream compliant media, that way at least when the BBC next decide to license something they will have to consider their online distribution requirements as part of any license agreement. As a side note if the BBC really is using plugin version information to determine platform (and using a cookie to store that info) then it may be useful to gather all the data that the iPhone is likely to present to a server making such a request now, rather than doing it on a bit by bit basis and dropping that somewhere. Cheers signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
RE: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
Maybe the BBC is only paying lip-service to the notion of DRM knowing that anything it puts in place can and will be broken. Maybe everyone should just keep quiet and play along with this DRM charade? Can't help but feel that the DRM supporters are the luddites of the 21st century - people who mean well, but who are trying to stop something over which they can have little control, rather than taking the opportunity to embrace new technology and finding ways to make it really work for them. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Phil Wilson Sent: 13 March 2008 14:05 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over? OK, here's my guess: I'm reasonably sure this has in fact now been hacked, but with the BBC most likely facing a cat and mouse game with hackers intent on circumventing copy protection. is it worth our exposing how it's done? Phil - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
Hi Guys, So here's the official response from the BBC. --- We've released a fix to prevent unrestricted downloading of streamed TV programmes on BBC iPlayer. Like other broadcasters, the security of rights-protected content online is an issue we take very seriously. It's an ongoing, constant process and one which we will continue to monitor. --- Back to Ian, I hope that focuses the debate now. Cheers, Ian Forrester This e-mail is: [] private; [] ask first; [x] bloggable Senior Producer, BBC Backstage BC5 C3, Media Village, 201 Wood Lane, London W12 7TP email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] work: +44 (0)2080083965 mob: +44 (0)7711913293 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 13 March 2008 14:25 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: RE: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over? Maybe the BBC is only paying lip-service to the notion of DRM knowing that anything it puts in place can and will be broken. Maybe everyone should just keep quiet and play along with this DRM charade? Can't help but feel that the DRM supporters are the luddites of the 21st century - people who mean well, but who are trying to stop something over which they can have little control, rather than taking the opportunity to embrace new technology and finding ways to make it really work for them. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Phil Wilson Sent: 13 March 2008 14:05 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over? OK, here's my guess: I'm reasonably sure this has in fact now been hacked, but with the BBC most likely facing a cat and mouse game with hackers intent on circumventing copy protection. is it worth our exposing how it's done? Phil - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
On 13/03/2008, Ian Forrester [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We've released a fix to prevent unrestricted downloading of streamed TV programmes on BBC iPlayer. It's official! The BBC are that stupid. I doubt your new system is as secure as you think so yelling We've fixed it nah nah nah is going to make some people crack it just to show you up. I on the other hand I am looking at the legal avenues. Is the E.U. Commission for Competition busy at the moment? Like other broadcasters, the security of rights-protected content online is an issue we take very seriously. Not so seriously you would actually consult any security experts (or hire any) or follow industry best practice for security systems, but seriously none the less. It's also a pity you don't take the BBC Charter, the BBC Trust or E.U. Competition Law quite as seriously! -- Computers are like air conditioners. Both stop working, if you open windows. -- Adam Heath - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
--- We've released a fix to prevent unrestricted downloading of streamed TV programmes on BBC iPlayer. Like other broadcasters, the security of rights-protected content online is an issue we take very seriously. It's an ongoing, constant process and one which we will continue to monitor. --- The problem for me is that as far as I understand it, because of the way authentication has been implemented, streaming is practically impossible on anything other than the target platform, in this case the iPhone. This means that almost any hack will result in a downloaded file, rather than a streaming video. Cheers, Phil - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 2:55 PM, Ian Forrester [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Guys, So here's the official response from the BBC. --- We've released a fix to prevent unrestricted downloading of streamed TV programmes on BBC iPlayer. Like other broadcasters, the security of rights-protected content online is an issue we take very seriously. It's an ongoing, constant process and one which we will continue to monitor. --- Back to Ian, I hope that focuses the debate now. Yup, it focuses the debate on why the BBC is favouring Apple over other platforms. Ivan Cheers, Ian Forrester This e-mail is: [] private; [] ask first; [x] bloggable Senior Producer, BBC Backstage BC5 C3, Media Village, 201 Wood Lane, London W12 7TP email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] work: +44 (0)2080083965 mob: +44 (0)7711913293 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 13 March 2008 14:25 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: RE: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over? Maybe the BBC is only paying lip-service to the notion of DRM knowing that anything it puts in place can and will be broken. Maybe everyone should just keep quiet and play along with this DRM charade? Can't help but feel that the DRM supporters are the luddites of the 21st century - people who mean well, but who are trying to stop something over which they can have little control, rather than taking the opportunity to embrace new technology and finding ways to make it really work for them. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Phil Wilson Sent: 13 March 2008 14:05 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over? OK, here's my guess: I'm reasonably sure this has in fact now been hacked, but with the BBC most likely facing a cat and mouse game with hackers intent on circumventing copy protection. is it worth our exposing how it's done? Phil - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Ivan Pope Snipperoo 50 Providence Place BN1 4GE Brighton 01273808458 blog.snipperoo.com directory.snipperoo.com Widget Conference http://widgetwebexpo.com
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
On Thursday 13 March 2008 15:44:56 Phil Wilson wrote: --- We've released a fix to prevent unrestricted downloading of streamed TV programmes on BBC iPlayer. Like other broadcasters, the security of rights-protected content online is an issue we take very seriously. It's an ongoing, constant process and one which we will continue to monitor. --- The problem for me is that as far as I understand it, because of the way authentication has been implemented, streaming is practically impossible on anything other than the target platform, in this case the iPhone. This means that almost any hack will result in a downloaded file, rather than a streaming video. Phil You hit the nail on the head, the media in question here is 'rights protected' only in terms of copyright. Given that it is being distributed, short of DRM, I am not sure how the BBC hopes enforce any specific method of usage. I would also like to point out to Ian that this response, whilst clarifying the BBC's general position on 'rights-protected' content, goes no further in explaining the lock in to a niche device (for this BETA service at lease) nor why the BBC can stream DRM free content (even if it is as a stream) to the iPhone but not to other mobile (or other) platforms. As for focusing the debate, I would suggest that all this does is rule out any distribution of BBC content by people who download a stream (which is obvious anyway), it doesn't clarify as to whether I can happily pull the stream to a non iPhone device by making appear to be one or download the stream, watch it on a device not yet supported and then delete it (without distributing it first). Andy. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
RE: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
Fair enough. What I still find rather confusing is that, short of using whatever DRM capabilities the iPhone has, they will still be streaming DRM free content to a single platform, something that is likely to be circumventable by other clients soon. Not only that, but the BBC article I posted a link for earlier plainly states that the iPlayer DRM used to protect the downloaded content for Windows is also broken, so in effect supplying DRM encumbered media to a windows client is the same as providing DRM free content (the difference is when the removal of or circumvention of protective measures is carried out). In effect.. No. It's not broken. You pointed out something that probably circumvents the protection. You can force your way into my house should you really want to, but that doesn't mean my front door is broken. It works well enough to give rights holders a safety blanket. So the BBC is claiming it is not permissible for it to make non-DRM content that it has licensed available, but is doing so and doing so in a manner that makes that content only available to a device (th iPhone) that comes from a single vendor and has a very small market share (I wont go into depth here to draw parallels with reasons given for Linux support as they are self evident). BBC also makes iPlayer content available in formats Windows can understand, oh and Adobe Flash. The BBC are also making media available for download to another single vendor provided platform (a vendor that has faced and is facing further anti-trust action in the EU). In the latter case the media is encumbered with DRM, but that DRM has been broken. You can download on an iPhone or iPod Touch made by Apple, or Microsoft Windows. Separate companies... separate vendors even. So in effect the BBC are giving a competitive edge to two commercial entities Adobe. Microsoft. Apple. Now, I am sure that fairly soon the method being used to 'protect' the iPhone specific DRM free content will be identified and circumvented, some people would probably be happy with that as a solution. I would however suggest that using such workarounds will be detrimental. The BBC needs to either provide a platform agnostic DRM capable player (I would even add the fantasy requirement for it to be unbreakable DRM), or resolve its licensing issues (or something else). Pay £££ for a license to freely distributre individual bits of content. Spend many months dealing with each different holder of those rights... you've probably guessed that there isn't one mammoth, single rights holder, or distribute it in a protected form to as many people as possible. A format which obviously doesn't satisfy the vocal minority. Earlier in the week a number of people posted references to a BBC blog that seemed to indicate that DRM free, standards compliant media would be available to mobile devices (regardless of type) as long as they were capable of displaying such media in a satisfactory manner, I would rather like to know if that is still the case and how the BBC is going to justify becoming a very nice marketing tool for a select number of device providers (without cost to those providers!). So one moment you to want it to be available on more devices. Now you think that's quite anti-competitive ? Wait, we stream in Real and Windows formats here you know. Have you seen those companies using that as a very nice marketing tool ? Because I sure as hell haven't. does not favour one or more commercial entities I can really the people who, you know, act and write music and direct, produce and fund... you know, those pesky creatives and the like really plumping for that one. Get real. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
We've released a fix to prevent unrestricted downloading of streamed TV programmes on BBC iPlayer. It's official! The BBC are that stupid. I doubt your new system is as secure as you think so yelling We've fixed it nah nah nah is going to make some people crack it just to show you up. I on the other hand I am looking at the legal avenues. Is the E.U. Commission for Competition busy at the moment? Like other broadcasters, the security of rights-protected content online is an issue we take very seriously. Not so seriously you would actually consult any security experts (or hire any) or follow industry best practice for security systems, but seriously none the less. It's also a pity you don't take the BBC Charter, the BBC Trust or E.U. Competition Law quite as seriously! In my opinion it looks like a way to get more content to some rather than none. Slowly hopefully we will see more devices become officially supported. It's obvious that these protection methods aren't put in place with a view that they will completely stop the download of material 'illegally' or against rights contracts, but if they are in place, then we should respect that they are there for a reason. Who knows what red tape exists inbetween the developers and the beurocrats at the BBC - I'm thinking a lot, and it will take time for this to move forward. That doesn't mean I'm not enjoying all the cool ideas that are coming together to grab content using this method, just that if the momentum picks up on any of them, it will most likely be stopped. Content rights holders just aren't willing to take up the notion that if you give people what they want, it might just succeed...
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 3:52 PM, Dave Crossland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 13/03/2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Maybe everyone should just keep quiet and play along with this DRM charade? That would be an awful idea; the whole point of the free software movement is to be able to live an upright and honest life. The only solution is for the policy makers at the BBC to change their policy. Suggest we all write short pithy letters to the Guardian right now (to hit deadline) pointing out the real issues - i.e. adherence to charter, favouritism, pick your personal bag. BBC reads the Guardian. Ivan -- Regards, Dave Personal opinion only. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Ivan Pope Snipperoo 50 Providence Place BN1 4GE Brighton 01273808458 blog.snipperoo.com directory.snipperoo.com Widget Conference http://widgetwebexpo.com
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
On 13/03/2008, Ivan Pope [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: BBC reads the Guardian. lol :-) I CC'd Mark since I mentioned him, and this is reproduced with permission: -- Forwarded message -- From: Mark Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 13 Mar 2008 14:24 Subject: Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over? To: Dave Crossland [EMAIL PROTECTED] Il giorno 13/mar/08, alle ore 13:28, Dave Crossland ha scritto: On 13/03/2008, Andy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 13/03/2008, Andy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It *appears* that it has. Confirmed. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7293988.stm Like the Guardian article this morning, this one is entirely dishonest. Describing someone changing their browser identification string to 'iPhone' as a 'hacker' and the act of changing the string as 'hacking' is ludicrous and illustrates the length BBC PR is prepared to go to cover up: 1) The triviality of the 'restriction' to the iPhone. 2) The fact that the recent months 'quick hacks' to give the world a streaming iPlayer, and an iPhone service, have *completely* invalidated the arguments BBC have repeatedly made to justify why they have not provided a platform independent iPlayer. Anyone know Nokia's head of legals phone number? Or Google's? Or Samsung? Or LG? Or Sony? Or any other mobile phone vendor? Can the BBC really hope to survive the potential legal onslaught these vendors could bring? The trust have already ruled iPlayer must be made platform agnostic, the BBC have not only failed to do this but they have now acted directly against it (scanning for and blocking products not from approved vendors even if they posses the technical capabilities needed). A very good point. The BBC's arguments are *invalid* and are now being repeated disproved by their own actions. Taking simply the 'DRM argument', recent actions have show this to be a straw-man. They are quite happy to provide DRM free to a favoured device like the iPhone, and by extension to any device so long as they decide whether to provide or not. Similarly, the 'market share' argument is bullsh*t. Care to take a stab at the relative amount of UK Linux users compared with the number of iPhone users? I rest my case. I don't think that kind of onslaugh is likely. Instead, I think the illegal state aid angle that the Open Source Consortium is pushing has another sharp arrow in its quiver :-) It would be worth mentioning that the EU have now announced wide- ranging investigations into illegal state aid amongst state broadcasters. If a 'poster child' was needed, one would imagine the BBC would fit the part quite well. The BBC is happy to dish out illegal state aid to Microsoft with the WEAK excuse that its desktop operating system is the most popular one, and it will serve the largest market sectors first. And now the BBC is dishing out illegal state aid to Apple, which is tiny player, especially in the mobile space - despite that it has good production design and public relations departments, which makes it appear way bigger than it is. But as long as the BBC managers who decide policy - which is a few very number of individuals indeed, Ashley Highfield being the main one AFAICT - think that the issue is popularity of platform instead of software freedom, the BBC will continue to dish out state aid to all the major players (I suppose Nokia will be next) and mutilate the ability of small players and startups to compete in the market. I suppose that if those policy makers used a GNU+Linux computer with only free software, they might see the problem first hand. But I will speculate that when Jono Bacon installed Ubuntu on Ashley Highfield's laptop a couple of weeks ago, he installed the proprietary Adobe Flash player. Having the proprietary Adobe Flash player installed suggests to a user that iPlayer works on GNU+Linux, and there is no problem in support for users of that OS. To conclude, the BBC cannot roll out a platform agnostic solution that doesn't include giving illegal state aid, because to be platform agnostic requires free software, and when the BBC agrees to use DRM it agrees to give out illegal state aid. In my opinion. The essential point is that the we must roll out to one platform at a time is a bogus argument. An Open Standards based iPlayer built to be platform independent could be implemented anywhere and everywhere. It would also ensure that the BBC no longer leave themselves open to accusations of foul play and illegal state aid. Until this point is realised we will simply see many more of these cheap publicity stunts, and the branding of everyday users who simply want a useable service as hackers. Mark -- Regards, Dave This is personal opinion only, not the views of any employers past or present. Mark Taylor President The Open Source Consortium Bringing Free and Open
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
Ian Partridge wrote: One thing I've always found unconvincing is the way the BBC bleats but the production companies won't let us distribute the content DRM-free!. The BBC has major clout - it could say from now on, all production contracts we sign HAVE to allow DRM-free redistribution. It could refuse to pay megabucks for that. Given the piss-poor state that ITV is in at the moment, what would the rights-holders do? Take their bat and ball and go where exactly? The rights-holders need the BBC just as much as the BBC needs them - if not more. Can I suggest that you read up on the recent Writers Guild of America strike, with particular attention to the causes of the strike (notably the issue of residuals for new media distribution[1]) and the consequences - for the guild-members, a beachhead on the Internet and in new media that will guarantee our share of a potentially vast and bountiful future[2] according to the guilds' presidents. S [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007-2008_Writers_Guild_of_America_strike [2] http://www.wga.org/subpage_member.aspx?id=2781 - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
On 13 Mar 2008, at 16:03, Thomas Leitch wrote: You can force your way into my house should you really want to, but that doesn't mean my front door is broken. That's a flawed analogy. In this case, your front door is simply not locked. Opening the door requires no force whatsoever. (And if I happen to come in and take all your stuff, good luck on getting your insurance company to pay out.) Dom - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
On 13 Mar 2008, at 16:03, Thomas Leitch wrote: You can force your way into my house should you really want to, but that doesn't mean my front door is broken. That's a flawed analogy. In this case, your front door is simply not locked. Opening the door requires no force whatsoever. (And if I happen to come in and take all your stuff, good luck on getting your insurance company to pay out.) Wrong. It is locked. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
On Thursday 13 March 2008 16:03:26 Thomas Leitch wrote: Fair enough. What I still find rather confusing is that, short of using whatever DRM capabilities the iPhone has, they will still be streaming DRM free content to a single platform, something that is likely to be circumventable by other clients soon. Not only that, but the BBC article I posted a link for earlier plainly states that the iPlayer DRM used to protect the downloaded content for Windows is also broken, so in effect supplying DRM encumbered media to a windows client is the same as providing DRM free content (the difference is when the removal of or circumvention of protective measures is carried out). In effect.. No. It's not broken. You pointed out something that probably circumvents the protection. You can force your way into my house should you really want to, but that doesn't mean my front door is broken. No it doesn't, it means that the protection you have is broken, i.e. a code has been 'broken'. In the case of DRM 'broken' would indicate that it is (easily, systematically and/or repeatably) breachable, broken as in 'doesn't work anymore' not broken as in 'broken window' It works well enough to give rights holders a safety blanket. Fair enough, if that is the BBC's position. What I find worrying is that the argument 'we need to protect our content' has in your view become 'we need to be seen to be trying to protect the content'. Thats fine too, but lets be honest about it. Now, if broken DRM is OK why are we limiting it to a broken DRM scheme on a single vendors platform. So the BBC is claiming it is not permissible for it to make non-DRM content that it has licensed available, but is doing so and doing so in a manner that makes that content only available to a device (th iPhone) that comes from a single vendor and has a very small market share (I wont go into depth here to draw parallels with reasons given for Linux support as they are self evident). BBC also makes iPlayer content available in formats Windows can understand, oh and Adobe Flash. Yes, but that hardly addresses the point, the iPhone version is DRM free. You pointed out earlier that DRM was required for the rights holders to be happy with it, are rights holders happy with DRM free content being distributed for the iPhone? The BBC are also making media available for download to another single vendor provided platform (a vendor that has faced and is facing further anti-trust action in the EU). In the latter case the media is encumbered with DRM, but that DRM has been broken. You can download on an iPhone or iPod Touch made by Apple, or Microsoft Windows. Separate companies... separate vendors even. So in effect the BBC are giving a competitive edge to two commercial entities Adobe. Microsoft. Apple. Now, I am sure that fairly soon the method being used to 'protect' the iPhone specific DRM free content will be identified and circumvented, some people would probably be happy with that as a solution. I would however suggest that using such workarounds will be detrimental. The BBC needs to either provide a platform agnostic DRM capable player (I would even add the fantasy requirement for it to be unbreakable DRM), or resolve its licensing issues (or something else). Pay £££ for a license to freely distributre individual bits of content. Spend many months dealing with each different holder of those rights... you've probably guessed that there isn't one mammoth, single rights holder, or distribute it in a protected form to as many people as possible. A format which obviously doesn't satisfy the vocal minority. Earlier in the week a number of people posted references to a BBC blog that seemed to indicate that DRM free, standards compliant media would be available to mobile devices (regardless of type) as long as they were capable of displaying such media in a satisfactory manner, I would rather like to know if that is still the case and how the BBC is going to justify becoming a very nice marketing tool for a select number of device providers (without cost to those providers!). So one moment you to want it to be available on more devices. Now you think that's quite anti-competitive ? Wait, we stream in Real and Windows formats here you know. Have you seen those companies using that as a very nice marketing tool ? Because I sure as hell haven't. does not favour one or more commercial entities I can really the people who, you know, act and write music and direct, produce and fund... you know, those pesky creatives and the like really plumping for that one. Get real. So in summary, there are issues with DRM and cross platform compatibility, these are legal (in terms of licensing) and technological. Fine, if the BBC were a commercial entity I would be entirely happy for them to do what they wish, ignore the issue
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
On 13/03/2008, Thomas Leitch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: BBC also makes iPlayer content available in formats Windows can understand, oh and Adobe Flash. Both of which are proprietary! Not even open standards! You can download on an iPhone or iPod Touch made by Apple, or Microsoft Windows. Separate companies... separate vendors even. The justification for one was that it was the most popular; the justifcation for the other? We think it plays videos nice. ... But what about the hundreds of other vendors of digital video playback devices? So in effect the BBC are giving a competitive edge to two commercial entities Adobe. Microsoft. Apple. The BBC are giving illegal state aid to a handful of companies - Adobe. Microsoft. Apple. Real. - and trampling hundreds of others. ... which obviously doesn't satisfy the vocal minority. The number of people with devices and OS that are not supported are a significant silent majory. So one moment you to want it to be available on more devices. Now you think that's quite anti-competitive ? Yes, because its being made available on more devices in an anti-competitive way. Everyone is asking for open standards and for the BBC not to discriminate against free software. To do otherwise is anti-competitive. does not favour one or more commercial entities I can really the people who, you know, act and write music and direct, produce and fund... you know, those pesky creatives and the like really plumping for that one. Get real. Rightsholders in all other sectors who tried DRM have abandoned it. The BBC ought to help the television rights holders figure out why the creatives who create music and books are doing that and get real. -- Regards, Dave Personal opinion only. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
Care to take a stab at the relative amount of UK Linux users compared with the number of iPhone users? I rest my case. This is an interesting point. I am all for open standards and software, but also feel I should consider all aspects - including ones out of the control of the immediate want to free these media files so everyone can watch them... It would be nice, but right now, it doesn't look feasible. From a marketing point of view (from which I know little about but... will comment on anyway..) - having the BBC providing the iPhone with services is quite 'cool' for the market, it's moving forward but albeit perhaps in the wrong way. What would be great is if an open standards method were to be developed, with a custom skin, look and feel for our most popular devices, iPhone, nokia mobiles and so on.
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
Quoting Ian Partridge [EMAIL PROTECTED]: One thing I've always found unconvincing is the way the BBC bleats but the production companies won't let us distribute the content DRM-free!. The BBC has major clout - it could say from now on, all production contracts we sign HAVE to allow DRM-free redistribution. It could refuse to pay megabucks for that. Given the piss-poor state that ITV is in at the moment, what would the rights-holders do? Take their bat and ball and go where exactly? The rights-holders need the BBC just as much as the BBC needs them - if not more. The BBC *has* to get a certain percentage of its output from third-party production houses. They have the BBC over a barrel, and it wouldn't be wise of the BBC to upset them by doing anything like pointing out that DRM doesn't work. This needs reforming... - Rob. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
Wrong - the door is open with a welcome sign because all the progs are broadcast first of all on TV without DRM. Adding DRM later on is just a meaningless waste of money. If people want to get content online, they can and they will. iTV will probably make it even easier if it records live TV as suggested here: http://macdailynews.com/index.php/weblog/comments/16677/ Adding DRM is bolting the stable door long after the horse has bolted and gone frolicking. Save the money wasted on DRM and spend it on finding other ways to make money out of content. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Thomas Leitch Sent: 13 March 2008 16:46 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: RE: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over? On 13 Mar 2008, at 16:03, Thomas Leitch wrote: You can force your way into my house should you really want to, but that doesn't mean my front door is broken. That's a flawed analogy. In this case, your front door is simply not locked. Opening the door requires no force whatsoever. (And if I happen to come in and take all your stuff, good luck on getting your insurance company to pay out.) Wrong. It is locked. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
Quoting Thomas Leitch [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Oh, and don't forget Real, Adobe... and Microsoft - gosh how on earth could we forget that one... Which specific Real, Adobe and Microsoft hardware devices are the BBC supporting to the exclusion of competing hardware devices? - Rob. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
... but it could at least ensure that its offerings are as portable as possible. Requirements: - Windows XP and Vista(?) - Adobe Flash player 8(?) - iPod or iPhone. Market share: lots. That's the definition of portable as possible. Unless you mean portable as in portable mobile phone-like device... - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
I'm happy to take the BBC's money and produce content for it without any DRM clause. The BBC can find other suppliers. It doesn't have to stick with its current suppliers/friends/former employees-now-turned-private-production-companies. Break up the cartel and get some new life and new thinking into broadcasting. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 13 March 2008 17:00 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over? Quoting Ian Partridge [EMAIL PROTECTED]: One thing I've always found unconvincing is the way the BBC bleats but the production companies won't let us distribute the content DRM-free!. The BBC has major clout - it could say from now on, all production contracts we sign HAVE to allow DRM-free redistribution. It could refuse to pay megabucks for that. Given the piss-poor state that ITV is in at the moment, what would the rights-holders do? Take their bat and ball and go where exactly? The rights-holders need the BBC just as much as the BBC needs them - if not more. The BBC *has* to get a certain percentage of its output from third-party production houses. They have the BBC over a barrel, and it wouldn't be wise of the BBC to upset them by doing anything like pointing out that DRM doesn't work. This needs reforming... - Rob. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
Wrong - the door is open with a welcome sign because all the progs are broadcast first of all on TV without DRM. Adding DRM later on is just a meaningless waste of money. If people want to get content online, they can and they will. This is irrelevant really because we're after a legal, long standing solution. Uploading rips of torchwood to youtube is illegal. Not saying it's not done, but it's still not what we're after here is it?
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
One could speculate that the BBC definition of platform agnostic is time-bombed DRM for every platform in the UK, the universe elsewhere, on a platform-by-platform basis, starting with Windows, then Apple, then... On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 1:59 PM, Andy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 13/03/2008, Andy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It *appears* that it has. Confirmed. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7293988.stm Anyone know Nokia's head of legals phone number? Or Google's? Or Samsung? Or LG? Or Sony? Or any other mobile phone vendor? Can the BBC really hope to survive the potential legal onslaught these vendors could bring? The trust have already ruled iPlayer must be made platform agnostic, the BBC have not only failed to do this but they have now acted directly against it (scanning for and blocking products not from approved vendors even if they posses the technical capabilities needed). Andy -- Computers are like air conditioners. Both stop working, if you open windows. -- Adam Heath - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
On 13/03/2008, Thomas Leitch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's the definition of portable as possible. NO IT ISN'T. Binary compiled code is NOT PORTABLE! Yes C source code is classified as Portable. But only if it is written in a portable manor. I.e. a C program that assumes chars are unsigned is not portable (it will fail on ARM for instance). A C program that makes non-portable calls such as Window-API calls is also not portable. A Portable C program would assume no more than the C standard requires for data types and functions, and would only use system calls that are portable, like those defined in the IEEE Portable Operating System Interface. As far as I am aware Flash is not portable as it can't be recompiled onto other platforms not supported by Adobe. The version for iPhone is also not portable as it has been artificially locked to that device Andy -- Computers are like air conditioners. Both stop working, if you open windows. -- Adam Heath - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
On 13/03/2008, Dave Crossland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The BBC are giving illegal state aid to a handful of companies - Adobe. Microsoft. Apple. Real. - and trampling hundreds of others. If you have the time and the evidence I suggest you contact the EU Commission about it[1]. The form detailing what you need to do is only 4 pages long[2] You can email your complaint to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To ask for advice you can try contacting the Consumer Liaison Office[3] [1] http://ec.europa.eu/comm/competition/state_aid/overview/index_en.cfm [2] http://ec.europa.eu/competition/contacts/complaints/en.pdf (PDF) [3] http://ec.europa.eu/comm/competition/forms/consumer_form.html Other sources to complain to are: BBC Complaints: http://www.bbc.co.uk/complaints/ BBC Trust: http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbctrust/appeals/index.html Ofcom: http://www.ofcom.org.uk/complain/ Your MP: (via) http://www.writetothem.com/ Your MEP: (via) http://www.writetothem.com/ (I would NOT recommend writing to all of them at once, pick one (probably the BBC) and give them a chance to respond. Then you may want to consider making a formal complaint to a higher authority). Andy -- Computers are like air conditioners. Both stop working, if you open windows. -- Adam Heath - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 5:39 PM, Andy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (probably the BBC) and give them a chance to respond. Then you may want to consider making a formal complaint to a higher authority). Higher Authority? God? Andy -- Computers are like air conditioners. Both stop working, if you open windows. -- Adam Heath - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Ivan Pope Snipperoo 50 Providence Place BN1 4GE Brighton 01273808458 blog.snipperoo.com directory.snipperoo.com Widget Conference http://widgetwebexpo.com
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
Ofcom: http://www.ofcom.org.uk/complain/ please don't ...my inbox is full enough alread (Ofcom does not regulate the BBC - that's the job of the BBC Trust) Your MP: (via) http://www.writetothem.com/ Your MEP: (via) http://www.writetothem.com/ now there's an accessible, standards-based website... - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Guardian article about iPhone iPlayer
I like the way that the article suggests I'm suddenly a 1337 h4x0r because I can chnge the user agent on my browser. Vijay. On 13/03/2008, Steve Jolly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thought that people might find this interesting: http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/mar/13/digitalvideo.television S - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
If you have the time and the evidence I suggest you contact the EU Commission about it[1]. Has anyone complained direct to the content providers? i.e. have you found a BBC programme you'd like to watch which includes the property of a third-party and written to that third party petitioning them to re-think their stance on DRM? Perhaps they are the ones you should be complaining about. The expected response will be one of but the BBC makes content which they own 100%! Why isn't that free!, and ignores the question. Phil - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Guardian article about iPhone iPlayer
vijay chopra wrote: I like the way that the article suggests I'm suddenly a 1337 h4x0r because I can chnge the user agent on my browser. See? I knew people would appreciate it. :-) S - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
Thomas Leitch wrote: Wrong. It is locked. Good luck if you lose your last front door key. As another example, I can sell you a car and refuse to give you the keys after you give me the money. If you hire a locksmith and drive off anyway and I take you to court over this then my insistence that breaking locks is wrong won't get me very far. - Rob. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
On 13/03/2008, Sean DALY [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One could speculate that the BBC definition of platform agnostic is time-bombed DRM for every platform in the UK, the universe elsewhere, on a platform-by-platform basis, starting with Windows, then Apple, then... I did try find a definition for agnostic but there was nothing relevant in this context, it's virtually all definitions relating to religion. I tried The Oxford English Dictionary[1], Collins English Dictionary[2], Cambridge Advanced Learners Dictionary[3], Merriam-Webster Online[4] and The Chambers 21st Century Dictionary[5]. Of course if we are talking about platform neutral then there are a number of definitions that are more relevant. One particular favourite of mine is: not saying or doing anything that would encourage or help any of the groups involved in an argument or war:[6] So the BBC should not help any group or groups! Are they not helping Microsoft and Apple? And another good definition (From the Oxford English this time): Not belonging to, associated with, or favouring any party or side.[7] Does the BBC not favour Microsoft and Apple platforms? Andy [1] http://dictionary.oed.com/cgi/entry/50004560?single=1query_type=wordqueryword=agnosticfirst=1max_to_show=10 [2] http://www.collinslanguage.com/results.aspx?js=ondictionary=cedmtext=agnostic [3] http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=1676dict=CALD [4] http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/agnostic [5] http://www.chambersharrap.co.uk/chambers/features/chref/chref.py/main?query=agnostictitle=21st [6] http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=53477dict=CALD [7] http://dictionary.oed.com/cgi/entry/00323716?single=1query_type=wordqueryword=neutralfirst=1max_to_show=10 -- Computers are like air conditioners. Both stop working, if you open windows. -- Adam Heath - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
On 13/03/2008, Matt Barber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Wrong - the door is open with a welcome sign because all the progs are broadcast first of all on TV without DRM. Adding DRM later on is just a meaningless waste of money. If people want to get content online, they can and they will. This is irrelevant really because we're after a legal, long standing solution. Uploading rips of torchwood to youtube is illegal. Not saying it's not done, but it's still not what we're after here is it? what he said. I can't help but feel a bit sorry for the BBC here. Rock and hard place. It's just removed DRM from the last two iPlayer releases (90% of iPlayer users do not suffer from DRM) That must have entailed some very hairy conversations with rights holders (see reference to Writers Guild) given it's the first major TV broadcaster to put hundred of non-DRM'd versions of its current TV schedule on t'internet (I could be wrong here... but hulu et al are all still DRM'd) Given that Anthony Rose (man running iPlayer, ex-Kazaa) is very very far from being a fool, there's a small cynical bit of me that thinks going non-DRM mp4 with iPhone is a very smart move for the BBC. There's no way that someone as smart as Rose would not have anticipated the consequences of using the mp4 iPhone release of iPlayer as a back door. You may think people in the BBC are stupid - I can assure you they're not. Non-drm'd mp4 (h264) has been the obvious cross-platform way forward for yonks - to the BBC, if not to the rights holders. By introducing non-DRM'd mp4 iPlayer onto a sexy devices like the iPhone/iPod touch, the BBC must have known it was entering an arms race it can't win in the long term. That may not be to the BBC's disadvantage. In time it'll be able to go back to rights holders and say look, piracy has not gone through the roof since we launched non-DRM versions of iPlayer, meanwhile usage has gone through the roof (10x increase), we're fighting a losing battle on the iPhone - this is an arms race we can't win, but which delivers negative user benefit. Let's just ditch the DRM for downloads too and see what happens One step at a time, innit. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
On 13/03/2008, Phil Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Has anyone complained direct to the content providers? Unsure, I am not sure they are breaking the law. The BBC is a public body and their are tight restrictions on what it can and can't do. Thus it is more likely it is committing an offence under the law. i.e. have you found a BBC programme you'd like to watch which includes the property of a third-party and written to that third party petitioning them to re-think their stance on DRM? Erm, I was talking about locking the MP4 stream to iPhone what has this got to do with DRM now? Perhaps they are the ones you should be complaining about. There is a huge problem there. We only have the BBC's word that the content providers have forced them to develop iPlayer this way. Given the BBC has not got a good track record when it comes to honesty[1][2][3] this may be entirely untrue. I am not about to contact the E.U. when I have no evidence it isn't purely the BBC making these decision. Andy [1] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/07/19/nbbc119.xml [2] http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/tv_and_radio/article2072794.ece [3] http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/columnists/columnists.html?in_article_id=486295in_page_id=1772in_author_id=256 -- Computers are like air conditioners. Both stop working, if you open windows. -- Adam Heath - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
Ivan Pope wrote: On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 5:39 PM, Andy [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (probably the BBC) and give them a chance to respond. Then you may want to consider making a formal complaint to a higher authority). Higher Authority? God? Ashley Highfield is my God. My idols are Balmer and Gates - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
Yes people one step at a time... This whole thing has been (well lets say) interesting to watch and I can tell you the BBC has got a lot better in regards to the way it deals with such situations now. Don't get me wrong, a official statement earlier might have helped and now there's a feeling that the big bad corp. isn't getting it. But actually the fact we were able to openly talk about this on backstage is great. Remember we're in it for the long run... not the short hike. Cheers, Ian Forrester This e-mail is: [] private; [] ask first; [x] bloggable Senior Producer, BBC Backstage BC5 C3, Media Village, 201 Wood Lane, London W12 7TP email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] work: +44 (0)2080083965 mob: +44 (0)7711913293 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom Loosemore Sent: 13 March 2008 18:21 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over? On 13/03/2008, Matt Barber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Wrong - the door is open with a welcome sign because all the progs are broadcast first of all on TV without DRM. Adding DRM later on is just a meaningless waste of money. If people want to get content online, they can and they will. This is irrelevant really because we're after a legal, long standing solution. Uploading rips of torchwood to youtube is illegal. Not saying it's not done, but it's still not what we're after here is it? what he said. I can't help but feel a bit sorry for the BBC here. Rock and hard place. It's just removed DRM from the last two iPlayer releases (90% of iPlayer users do not suffer from DRM) That must have entailed some very hairy conversations with rights holders (see reference to Writers Guild) given it's the first major TV broadcaster to put hundred of non-DRM'd versions of its current TV schedule on t'internet (I could be wrong here... but hulu et al are all still DRM'd) Given that Anthony Rose (man running iPlayer, ex-Kazaa) is very very far from being a fool, there's a small cynical bit of me that thinks going non-DRM mp4 with iPhone is a very smart move for the BBC. There's no way that someone as smart as Rose would not have anticipated the consequences of using the mp4 iPhone release of iPlayer as a back door. You may think people in the BBC are stupid - I can assure you they're not. Non-drm'd mp4 (h264) has been the obvious cross-platform way forward for yonks - to the BBC, if not to the rights holders. By introducing non-DRM'd mp4 iPlayer onto a sexy devices like the iPhone/iPod touch, the BBC must have known it was entering an arms race it can't win in the long term. That may not be to the BBC's disadvantage. In time it'll be able to go back to rights holders and say look, piracy has not gone through the roof since we launched non-DRM versions of iPlayer, meanwhile usage has gone through the roof (10x increase), we're fighting a losing battle on the iPhone - this is an arms race we can't win, but which delivers negative user benefit. Let's just ditch the DRM for downloads too and see what happens One step at a time, innit. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
On 13/03/2008, Thomas Leitch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... but it could at least ensure that its offerings are as portable as possible. Requirements: - Windows XP and Vista(?) - Adobe Flash player 8(?) - iPod or iPhone. Market share: lots. You are sadly totally mistaken about that. Go into any consumer electronics store and you'll find plenty of devices that can play video but are not running XP/Vista, Adobe Flash, or are from Apple. That's the definition of [as] portable as possible. This is a ridiculous definition :-) -- Regards, Dave Personal opinion only. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
On 13/03/2008, Andy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 13/03/2008, Thomas Leitch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's the definition of portable as possible. NO IT ISN'T. Binary compiled code is NOT PORTABLE! That's not the meaning of portable that was originally intended - which was 'copy the video file from PC to generic device just bought from PC World' -- Regards, Dave - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
On 13/03/2008, Andy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 13/03/2008, Dave Crossland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The BBC are giving illegal state aid to a handful of companies - Adobe. Microsoft. Apple. Real. - and trampling hundreds of others. If you have the time and the evidence I suggest you contact the EU Commission about it[1]. The Open Source Consortium has this well under way, afaik, and the recent discussion of iPlayer in the House of Commons covered this aspect. I'll post my letter to the MP who brought it up tomorrow :-) -- Regards, Dave - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Guardian article about iPhone iPlayer
Yep! I'm going off to pWn the Gruniad's site now by downloading it to my PC using the 1337 h4x0r tool known as Firefox! Seriously that article is downright funny in how it goes out of it's way to avoid how these hackers are circumvent[ing] the BBC's anti-piracy systems. My guess is that the stupid journo doesn't either actually understand the issues or didn't bother to find out how people were getting the DRM free stream; stupid or lazy, take your pick. The BBC response article is only marginally better, again referring to hackers for no apparent reason though they at least have a motive to mislead: propaganda. Though I probably shouldn't attribute to malice what's adequately explained by stupidity. Vijay On 13/03/2008, Steve Jolly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: vijay chopra wrote: I like the way that the article suggests I'm suddenly a 1337 h4x0r because I can chnge the user agent on my browser. See? I knew people would appreciate it. :-) S - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
On 13/03/2008, Ian Forrester [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Remember we're in it for the long run... not the short hike. Because the BBC is committed to DRM, this is scary. -- Regards, Dave Personal opinon only. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
I'll post my letter to the MP who brought it up tomorrow :-) MP's don't generally respond to letters from non-constituents. You're better off writing to your own MP, raising whatever issue you care about, and pointing out which other MP(s) is/are clued up on the issue so your own MP can go ask them if you catch their interest. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
On 13/03/2008, Andy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 13/03/2008, Phil Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i.e. have you found a BBC programme you'd like to watch which includes the property of a third-party and written to that third party petitioning them to re-think their stance on DRM? Erm, I was talking about locking the MP4 stream to iPhone what has this got to do with DRM now? DRM means technical protection mechanisms that are intended to prevent unauthorised usage which is also restricted by copyright law. When the BBC limits the MP4 stream to Apple hardware devices, it is implementing DRM, which it is certainly illegal to break in the USA (because of the DMCA law) and I believe illegal to break across the EU, including the UK, because of the EUCD law. (But I don't know of people being jailed under EUCD, whereas dozens have been in the USA.) This is true even if the DRM is detecting a User Agent string; a key improvement in GPLv3 is to disclaim GPLv3 software as not a technical protection mechanism. -- Regards, Dave - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
On Thursday 13 March 2008 16:46:10 Thomas Leitch wrote: Wrong. It is locked. Wrong. In the case of content selection by user agent string there is precedent. It is probably also valid in the case of figleaf 'protection' by user agent detection. Reverse engineering for the purpose of creating a compatible client of a publically available service almost certainly takes precedent here. (It is after all one of the few aspects of reverse engineering specifically protected) * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_engineering#Legality (For example, creating a plugin to mozilla to mask as the iPhone for the purposes of interoperability with the BBC website would almost certainly be legal) There are direct parallels here with the BitKeeper debacle (where the heinous haxxor tool was known as telnet). Michael. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Guardian article about iPhone iPlayer
vijay chopra wrote: The BBC response article is only marginally better, again referring to hackers for no apparent reason though they at least have a motive to mislead: propaganda. Though I probably shouldn't attribute to malice what's adequately explained by stupidity. Personally, I can think of explanations that don't insult the journalist in question. :-) That aside though, the BBC News website has a form for people to report factual errors which you could use if you felt sufficiently strongly about the matter. S - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
Dave Crossland wrote: When the BBC limits the MP4 stream to Apple hardware devices, it is implementing DRM Sorry, not convinced. IANAL of course, but personally I don't see how the concept of restricting access to a particular client implies the concept of preventing copying. S - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
Hi Tom! Great to see you posting here :-) On 13/03/2008, Tom Loosemore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I can't help but feel a bit sorry for the BBC here. Rock and hard place. It's just removed DRM from the last two iPlayer releases (90% of iPlayer users do not suffer from DRM) Do you think the BBC will keep the RMTP streams DRM-less when Gnash 0.9 comes out later this year? That must have entailed some very hairy conversations with rights holders (see reference to Writers Guild) given it's the first major TV broadcaster to put hundred of non-DRM'd versions of its current TV schedule on t'internet (I could be wrong here... but hulu et al are all still DRM'd) I speculate that the conversations involved the BBC agreeing to use Apple's iPhone DRM as soon as it is ready. We haven't heard about this yet because Apple's PR department is smart enough to know that annoucing iPhone DRM around the time of the developer SDK would take some steam of the latter - but Apple is surely going to bring it out soon. In time it'll be able to go back to rights holders and say look, piracy has not gone through the roof since we launched non-DRM versions of iPlayer, meanwhile usage has gone through the roof (10x increase), we're fighting a losing battle on the iPhone - this is an arms race we can't win, but which delivers negative user benefit. Let's just ditch the DRM for downloads too and see what happens I'd like to believe in this but it seems like a fairy tale to me. Why didn't the BBC go to rights holders with this at the start? It looks more to me like the iPlayer team made a sexy decision and didn't see the BBC Got Hacked! Guardian headlines coming, no matter how 'smart' Rose's resume makes him look. The official line posted here and reported on El Reg is absolutely the Big Bad Corp not getting it. One step at a time, innit. When will the first step happen? -- Regards, Dave Personal opinion only. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
On 13/03/2008, Steve Jolly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dave Crossland wrote: When the BBC limits the MP4 stream to Apple hardware devices, it is implementing DRM Sorry, not convinced. IANAL of course, but personally I don't see how the concept of restricting access to a particular client implies the concept of preventing copying. Its preventing unauthorised use - copyright covers use, not just copying. Michael's post about reverse engineering having safe precedent for network protocols is true in itself, but I'm not sure how the precedent sites with the new super copyright DMCA/EUCD law. -- Regards, Dave Personal opinion only. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
On 13/03/2008, Tom Loosemore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'll post my letter to the MP who brought it up tomorrow :-) MP's don't generally respond to letters from non-constituents. As long as he reads it, that's okay. If anyone is in John Pugh's area, please do hit up http://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/john_pugh/southport :-) You're better off writing to your own MP, raising whatever issue you care about, and pointing out which other MP(s) is/are clued up on the issue so your own MP can go ask them if you catch their interest. I'll give this a try as well :-) Thanks, -- Regards, Dave - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Guardian article about iPhone iPlayer
I'm sorry I just despair for the journalists in this country. In theory they should be a paragon of virtue, holding authority to account, uncovering misdeeds and campaigning on behalf of the citizenry. Instead we get dumbing down and catering to the lowest common denominator; and then they wonder why they have falling circulation. The only dead tree press I buy now is Private Eye. Vijay. On 13/03/2008, Steve Jolly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Personally, I can think of explanations that don't insult the journalist in question. :-) That aside though, the BBC News website has a form for people to report factual errors which you could use if you felt sufficiently strongly about the matter. S - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
First there is no such thing as the EUCD law, all EU member states interpret and implement EU directives how they want. I believe that the UK implementation of the EU copyright directive is The Copyright and related rights regulations 2003 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_and_Related_Rights_Regulations_2003 I belive the relevant section of the act is herehttp://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/content.aspx?LegType=All+Legislationtitle=Copyright+and+Related+Rights+RegulationsYear=2003searchEnacted=0extentMatchOnly=0confersPower=0blanketAmendment=0sortAlpha=0TYPE=QSPageNumber=1NavFrom=0parentActiveTextDocId=860007ActiveTextDocId=860053filesize=77916 IANAL, but as I read it Circumvention of technical devices applied to computer programs is only unlawful if you're doing it in order to start selling copies of $copyrighted_work, breaking DRM in order to watch Dr Who on you Linux box won't earn you a criminal record. Vijay. On 13/03/2008, Dave Crossland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 13/03/2008, Andy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When the BBC limits the MP4 stream to Apple hardware devices, it is implementing DRM, which it is certainly illegal to break in the USA (because of the DMCA law) and I believe illegal to break across the EU, including the UK, because of the EUCD law. (But I don't know of people being jailed under EUCD, whereas dozens have been in the USA.)
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
I'll post my letter to the MP who brought it up tomorrow :-) MP's don't generally respond to letters from non-constituents. As long as he reads it, that's okay. he won't read it - you'll get a polite form letter back from his secretary (which may or may not be his wife/mother/son/mistress's daughter) - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Guardian article about iPhone iPlayer
vijay chopra wrote: I'm sorry I just despair for the journalists in this country. In theory they should be a paragon of virtue, holding authority to account, uncovering misdeeds and campaigning on behalf of the citizenry. Instead we get dumbing down and catering to the lowest common denominator; and then they wonder why they have falling circulation. The only dead tree press I buy now is Private Eye. You sure know how to make friends with people who work for the country's largest news-gathering organisation. ;-) S - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
On 13/03/2008, Thomas Leitch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So in effect the BBC are giving a competitive edge to two commercial entities Adobe. Microsoft. Apple. ... Get real. Here is something real: Hello, My business partners and I are currently working on a Linux-based application that requires Flash playback. Adobe has specifically excluded our application from bundling a Flash player under the terms of their free distribution license, and our efforts to negotiate some sort of paid licensing agreement have stalled. At this point, we are looking for alternatives, and it would seem that helping Gnash would be a viable option for us. ... - http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/gnash-dev/2008-03/msg6.html Any software that depends on Adobe Flash discriminates against products from vendors that Adobe simply refuses to do business with. -- Regards, Dave Personal opinion only. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
Well, I now have a working download script for the updated MP4 over HTTP service. Anyone else been playing with this this evening? Far too many messages to this thread for me to keep up with. You basically have to send the exact same headers that an iPhone does, along with the BBC-UID. Fortunately someone emailed me a plain-text log of successful requests sniffed from his iPhone. I've used curl instead of wget this time as it gives you finer granularity of control over headers. The only way the BBC could keep media over HTTP and not have trivial scripts download files from them is to put some kind of user authentication system into the iPlayer. They should do it anyway and tie it to a valid TV license. Iain - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
There's a Ruby based script as well, does the exact same thing as my PHP one: http://po-ru.com/diary/bbc-iplayer-fix-hacked-again/ linked from http://www.flickr.com/photos/twindx/2316284105/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
On 13/03/2008, Tom Loosemore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In time it'll be able to go back to rights holders and say look, piracy has not gone through the roof since we launched non-DRM versions of iPlayer, meanwhile usage has gone through the roof (10x increase), we're fighting a losing battle on the iPhone - this is an arms race we can't win, but which delivers negative user benefit. Let's just ditch the DRM for downloads too and see what happens I'd like to believe in this but it seems like a fairy tale to me. Why didn't the BBC go to rights holders with this at the start? cos the start was in 2003/4, at which point in time the world looked very different to both the BBC and to rights holders Really? The world looked the same to me then, except that the other media industries were yet to adondon DRM. Maybe I'm a gullible fool, but I'd say the signs are basically positive - though I can see from your perspective that the BBC isn't moving fast enough. ... Oh, and the way to exert maximum pressure is to question its rights strategy, not its technology strategy, since the latter follows the former. That guy left after his job was done; a Director handwaving about in an ideal world... shows how little clue he has about the real world of free software; and the last two are minor elements of technology stategy which are going to be corrected soon - because, as you say, policy is the real issue here. The BBC policy is that DRM and proprietary software are desirable. That appears to be entrenched. From my perspective, the BBC is facing one way and talking about in an ideal world and open innovation while making large, definite steps and official statements of policy in the other direction. My friend Alex uses a similar technique to skip taxi queues, by walking backwards into the front of the line. * The BBC kinda forgot that it gave the UK huge value when it was bold enough to act as a leader in media technology To an extent it still is, what with Hackday last year and paying for the big Over The Air conference in the next few weeks - but the fact the BBC has restricted mobile iPlayer access as best it can while is spending money on a mobile developer conference is laughable. Whoever ordered the restrictions should be ashamed; I'm sure they'll be the laughing stock of the conference if word gets out who they are... though i think there are positive signs here, too, with the public murmurings about Freeview IP hybrids, and the P2P Next project http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2008/02/p2p_next.html The Freeview IP hybrid that was demonstrated at the Edinburgh Media Fringe event was crippled with tivoisation and DRM was hinted at as the motivation for that. PS: Touche on the blog :-D -- Regards, Dave Personal opinion only. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?
On 13/03/2008, Iain Wallace [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The only way the BBC could keep media over HTTP and not have trivial scripts download files from them is to put some kind of user authentication system into the iPlayer. They should do it anyway and tie it to a valid TV license. And then offer TV licenses to non-British residents to offset the cost of paying rights holders for non-DRM downloads and a much longer download window. -- Regards, Dave Personal opinion only. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Guardian article about iPhone iPlayer
You have to bear in mind that these 'journalists' are or start out as good people wanting to do a good job. Their employers are driven by market demand. So the pressure is to tailor output to market demand. Market demand is us. All of us, en masse. That's the capitalist system. If you are unhappy with the output of journalists you have to look at why they are (allegedly) so crap at it. The answer is to overthrow the system, man!Cheers, Ivan On 3/13/08, vijay chopra [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry, I was probably being overly broad in my use of the term journalists I was referring in the main to those that work of our so called newspapers (we did start with an article from the Gurniad). To be fair to them, the BBC are much better at actually reporting on the facts, even when they're at they're worst (such as the Panorama episode on wi-fi) they remain streaks ahead of the headline writers of Fleet Street, to whom the terms fact checking and research are bizarre things that other people do. Vijay. On 13/03/2008, Steve Jolly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: vijay chopra wrote: I'm sorry I just despair for the journalists in this country. In theory they should be a paragon of virtue, holding authority to account, uncovering misdeeds and campaigning on behalf of the citizenry. Instead we get dumbing down and catering to the lowest common denominator; and then they wonder why they have falling circulation. The only dead tree press I buy now is Private Eye. You sure know how to make friends with people who work for the country's largest news-gathering organisation. ;-) S - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Ivan Pope Snipperoo 50 Providence Place BN1 4GE Brighton 01273808458 blog.snipperoo.com directory.snipperoo.com Widget Conference http://widgetwebexpo.com
