Re: [backstage] Make the primary operating system used in state schools free and open source

[Matt Barber]

What about all the jobs that people have when they develop software that 
is paid for and licensed? If the switch to free software were to 
suddenly happen, would these people find themselves out of work?
This isn't a stab at anybody, it's just an observation that I'd like to 
put in there. And I'm genuinely interested in the response from 
enthusiasts to the idea.


Also, I am a fan of both closed, and open software, using Microsoft and 
Mozilla products, enjoying and consuming DRM-Free media content. I don't 
often enjoy getting involved in open/closed/free/however discussions 
because I find they are very one sided a lot of the time.


Speaking of Linux in schools - I do find that out of the many Linux 
distributions that I have used, Ubuntu included, none were up to scratch 
to use in either a production or play environment for me. Flaky support 
- annoying buggy features that waste time instead of saving time, just 
unusual ways of working. That's my 'used to XP' side shining through. XP 
does what I want now - and to be frank, is reliable and fast. At least 
how I have it set up.


I do see the fun in being able to tweak the OS, and really get to grips 
with it's operation - if kids in computer science / computing / IT 
classes were taught to think that way then we would have a better IT 
society. But we must consider that first, we need a good platform to 
work from.


Where I work, we are able to choose whichever platform works best for 
us, as long as it doesn't affect productivity. Trouble is, schools are 
more important than the workplace in my opinion - and the kids might not 
know what they want just yet. Maybe that's the point this thread is 
trying to prove?

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Re: [backstage] Make the primary operating system used in state schools free and open source

[Steffan Davies]

Matt Barber m...@progressive.org.uk wrote at 13:10 on 2009-02-11:

 What about all the jobs that people have when they develop software that  
 is paid for and licensed? If the switch to free software were to  
 suddenly happen, would these people find themselves out of work?
 This isn't a stab at anybody, it's just an observation that I'd like to  
 put in there. And I'm genuinely interested in the response from  
 enthusiasts to the idea.

Well, quite a number of people are employed to work on OS and GPL
software, both writing enhancements and fixing bugs. Certainly the
growth in use of OS doesn't seem to have lead to hordes of unemployed
developers. Indeed, most of the developers I know work using OS tools to
write commercial software (webapps mostly) that runs on OS platforms and
this has been a huge growth area in the last decade. Some are paid to
write to write code which is subsequently opened.

I'd be much more worried about sales, marketing, licensing and
compliance people TBH. If your job is keeping track of licenses to avoid
having your organisation beaten up by BSA/FAST and those licenses
suddenly become fewer in number (I don't think anyone is suggesting no
use of commercial software) then there's a reduction in the amount of
work needed. Whether this is repaid by the removal of a bureaucratic
brake on Getting Stuff Done* is up for debate. I think it is, but as a
Linux/BSD guy I would, I suppose.

*When I used to work in Windows/Mac shops, keeping track of licenses was
a huge time-sink. Long hours spent reciting long alphanumerics back and
forth to call centres are weren't really what I'd been hired for.

S
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Re: [backstage] Make the primary operating system used in state schools free and open source

[Zen]

I can't see the ed sector taking on free software in any great volume  
in the near future ... the issues around support and compatibility  
(with workplaces and what parents have at home) are just too great.


If there was to be a shift away from MS/Windows, I think it is more  
likely to be in the direction of Apple and OSX. Apple are hooking kids  
with iPods and iPhones and the step from using an iPod (and iTunes on  
Win or OSX) or an iPhone to using a Mac running OSX is tiny. OSX with  
iWork does virtually everything people need. Someone mentioned earlier  
on that kids don't even get taught how to type in schools, but I think  
that's a minor issue ... I know plenty of kids who haven't been taught  
to touch type properly but who can whizz around their keyboards,  
mice, iPods, touch screens, etc faster than most touch typists. The  
keyboard as an interface will be less and less important as  
technologies develop (especially voice inputs).


The total cost of ownership of a Mac is (in my experience) far lower  
than running Windows machines. The hardware purchase price is high,  
but the OS is MILES cheaper (and miles more reliable) and iWork can do  
pretty much everything the average user needs for a lot less money  
than MS Office. If MS want to compete in the years ahead, they  
radically need to drop their prices.


Also, society is becoming far more creative and interactive   
socially and job wise. People need tools to get the job done simply -  
they don't care how those tools are made and they don't want to learn  
how to make the tools. Apple gives people software that works. They  
boot up and are productive more or less straight away. There's no need  
to learn how the OS works. There's no need to learn how to use MS  
Office. If people can use iTunes, they can pretty much intuitively use  
any part of Apple's core software suites (iWork and iLife). And the OS  
doesn't break all the time and it doesn't need a lot of IT support.


A UK school example from Apple:
http://www.apple.com/uk/education/profiles/bryanston/

And another thing is the growth of Apple not just in the iPod youth  
centred market, but in the Mac/PC market in the US - especially in US  
universities  where the US is today, we often follow. An example:


http://blogs.eweek.com/applewatch/content/macbook/is_apples_mac_u_pic_worth_a_thousand_words.html

Apple have been so smart in grabbing the attention of the  
iGeneration ... so long as they don't lose momentum, they have the  
potential to surpass MS in many markets.


There was a TV docu the other day about newspapers in the UK -  
virtually every office shot showed banks of people using Apples. Media  
based, I know - but half the population want  a media related job  
these days.


People don't want free software. They want software that 'just works  
and which doesn't cost an arm and a leg. They don't want the confusion  
of tons of MS Windows' flavours. Apple ticks all of those boxes and  
with the iPoders growing up and buying PCs the Windows market share  
will fall. People won;t switch to free OS platforms.



On 11 Feb 2009, at 12:10, Matt Barber wrote:

What about all the jobs that people have when they develop software  
that is paid for and licensed? If the switch to free software were  
to suddenly happen, would these people find themselves out of work?
This isn't a stab at anybody, it's just an observation that I'd like  
to put in there. And I'm genuinely interested in the response from  
enthusiasts to the idea.


Also, I am a fan of both closed, and open software, using Microsoft  
and Mozilla products, enjoying and consuming DRM-Free media content.  
I don't often enjoy getting involved in open/closed/free/however  
discussions because I find they are very one sided a lot of the time.


Speaking of Linux in schools - I do find that out of the many Linux  
distributions that I have used, Ubuntu included, none were up to  
scratch to use in either a production or play environment for me.  
Flaky support - annoying buggy features that waste time instead of  
saving time, just unusual ways of working. That's my 'used to XP'  
side shining through. XP does what I want now - and to be frank, is  
reliable and fast. At least how I have it set up.


I do see the fun in being able to tweak the OS, and really get to  
grips with it's operation - if kids in computer science /  
computing / IT classes were taught to think that way then we would  
have a better IT society. But we must consider that first, we need a  
good platform to work from.


Where I work, we are able to choose whichever platform works best  
for us, as long as it doesn't affect productivity. Trouble is,  
schools are more important than the workplace in my opinion - and  
the kids might not know what they want just yet. Maybe that's the  
point this thread is trying to prove?

-
Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To unsubscribe,  
please visit 

Re: [backstage] Make the primary operating system used in state schools free and open source

[Neil Aberdeen]

Under BSF SUN now runs Bradford local authority schools IT
From
http://blogs.sun.com/joehartley/entry/back_to_a_new_school

The computers were not conventional PCs, but _Sun Ray thin clients 
http://www.sun.com/sunray/index.jsp%20_. Sun Ray clients enable 
virtualized desktop sessions to run on a datacenter server, which houses 
the applications and data. ...


As the key technology partner to Bradford, Sun is not only providing the 
hardware, we're also designing the software that will facilitate 
learning. Using Sun's open source software as well as other open source 
educational software such as Moodlerooms, Sun has created an open source 
software environment for the school.


Zen wrote:
I can't see the ed sector taking on free software in any great volume 
in the near future ... the issues around support and compatibility 
(with workplaces and what parents have at home) are just too great.


If there was to be a shift away from MS/Windows, I think it is more 
likely to be in the direction of Apple and OSX. Apple are hooking kids 
with iPods and iPhones and the step from using an iPod (and iTunes on 
Win or OSX) or an iPhone to using a Mac running OSX is tiny. OSX with 
iWork does virtually everything people need. Someone mentioned earlier 
on that kids don't even get taught how to type in schools, but I think 
that's a minor issue ... I know plenty of kids who haven't been taught 
to touch type properly but who can whizz around their keyboards, 
mice, iPods, touch screens, etc faster than most touch typists. The 
keyboard as an interface will be less and less important as 
technologies develop (especially voice inputs).


The total cost of ownership of a Mac is (in my experience) far lower 
than running Windows machines. The hardware purchase price is high, 
but the OS is MILES cheaper (and miles more reliable) and iWork can do 
pretty much everything the average user needs for a lot less money 
than MS Office. If MS want to compete in the years ahead, they 
radically need to drop their prices.


Also, society is becoming far more creative and interactive  
socially and job wise. People need tools to get the job done simply - 
they don't care how those tools are made and they don't want to learn 
how to make the tools. Apple gives people software that works. They 
boot up and are productive more or less straight away. There's no need 
to learn how the OS works. There's no need to learn how to use MS 
Office. If people can use iTunes, they can pretty much intuitively use 
any part of Apple's core software suites (iWork and iLife). And the OS 
doesn't break all the time and it doesn't need a lot of IT support.


A UK school example from Apple:
http://www.apple.com/uk/education/profiles/bryanston/

And another thing is the growth of Apple not just in the iPod youth 
centred market, but in the Mac/PC market in the US - especially in US 
universities  where the US is today, we often follow. An example:


http://blogs.eweek.com/applewatch/content/macbook/is_apples_mac_u_pic_worth_a_thousand_words.html 



Apple have been so smart in grabbing the attention of the iGeneration 
... so long as they don't lose momentum, they have the potential to 
surpass MS in many markets.


There was a TV docu the other day about newspapers in the UK - 
virtually every office shot showed banks of people using Apples. Media 
based, I know - but half the population want  a media related job 
these days.


People don't want free software. They want software that 'just works 
and which doesn't cost an arm and a leg. They don't want the confusion 
of tons of MS Windows' flavours. Apple ticks all of those boxes and 
with the iPoders growing up and buying PCs the Windows market share 
will fall. People won;t switch to free OS platforms.



On 11 Feb 2009, at 12:10, Matt Barber wrote:

What about all the jobs that people have when they develop software 
that is paid for and licensed? If the switch to free software were to 
suddenly happen, would these people find themselves out of work?
This isn't a stab at anybody, it's just an observation that I'd like 
to put in there. And I'm genuinely interested in the response from 
enthusiasts to the idea.


Also, I am a fan of both closed, and open software, using Microsoft 
and Mozilla products, enjoying and consuming DRM-Free media content. 
I don't often enjoy getting involved in open/closed/free/however 
discussions because I find they are very one sided a lot of the time.


Speaking of Linux in schools - I do find that out of the many Linux 
distributions that I have used, Ubuntu included, none were up to 
scratch to use in either a production or play environment for me. 
Flaky support - annoying buggy features that waste time instead of 
saving time, just unusual ways of working. That's my 'used to XP' 
side shining through. XP does what I want now - and to be frank, is 
reliable and fast. At least how I have it set up.


I do see the fun in being able to tweak the OS, and 

Re: [backstage] Make the primary operating system used in state schools free and open source

[Rich Vazquez]

I'm glad you pointed this out.  There are more obviously.  Why is this
discussion operating like there aren't entire governments, schools and
nations already moving to or running open source?  Andalusia (Guadlinex),
Extremadura (gnuLinEx), Madrid (MAX) in Spain have had their own
distributions for schools and public spaces quite some time.

We can discuss how feasable it is - but it is.  People are doing it in Spain
and other parts of the world.  Here's one primer with a few case studies:
http://www.iosn.net/education/foss-education-primer/index_html/view

Here's a click through presentation on Guadlinex:
http://speeches.ofset.org/jrfernandez/rmll2008/
A good quote from there: Integrating computers in education is a
pedagogical not a technical issue



On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 8:23 AM, Neil Aberdeen n...@tui.co.uk wrote:

  Under BSF SUN now runs Bradford local authority schools IT
 From
 http://blogs.sun.com/joehartley/entry/back_to_a_new_school

 The computers were not conventional PCs, but *Sun Ray thin 
 clientshttp://www.sun.com/sunray/index.jsp%20
 *. Sun Ray clients enable virtualized desktop sessions to run on a
 datacenter server, which houses the applications and data. ...
 As the key technology partner to Bradford, Sun is not only providing the
 hardware, we're also designing the software that will facilitate learning.
 Using Sun's open source software as well as other open source educational
 software such as Moodlerooms, Sun has created an open source software
 environment for the school.

Re: [backstage] Make the primary operating system used in state schools free and open source

[Sean DALY]

For the past two years, the Ile-de-France region which includes Paris
has distributed 200,000 USB keys with free open source software to
students of 450 secondary schools each September.

The gcompris project (= j'ai compris = I understood) for young
students is available for all platforms in over 25 languages and has
been used worldwide.

The Shuttleworth Foundation has sponsored several large-scale
education projects in South Africa, notably tuXlab and Kusasa.

The One Laptop Per Child project, designed particularly for students
in developing countries, has distributed over 600,000 XO laptops
running the Sugar interface. Although OLPC has announced a beefed-up
(and thus more expensive) Windows-only or dual-boot version of the XO,
Microsoft has encountered difficulties getting any version of Windows
to run on it. Sugar is now being ported to popular netbooks, is being
included in GNU/Linux distributions, and a standalone bootable live
USB key is in the works. Disclaimer: I am a participant in the Sugar
Labs community.

Sean.



On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 3:45 PM, Rich Vazquez rvazq...@impactnews.com wrote:
 I'm glad you pointed this out.  There are more obviously.  Why is this
 discussion operating like there aren't entire governments, schools and
 nations already moving to or running open source?  Andalusia (Guadlinex),
 Extremadura (gnuLinEx), Madrid (MAX) in Spain have had their own
 distributions for schools and public spaces quite some time.

 We can discuss how feasable it is - but it is.  People are doing it in Spain
 and other parts of the world.  Here's one primer with a few case studies:
 http://www.iosn.net/education/foss-education-primer/index_html/view

 Here's a click through presentation on Guadlinex:
 http://speeches.ofset.org/jrfernandez/rmll2008/
 A good quote from there: Integrating computers in education is a
 pedagogical not a technical issue



 On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 8:23 AM, Neil Aberdeen n...@tui.co.uk wrote:

 Under BSF SUN now runs Bradford local authority schools IT
 From
 http://blogs.sun.com/joehartley/entry/back_to_a_new_school

 The computers were not conventional PCs, but Sun Ray thin clients. Sun Ray
 clients enable virtualized desktop sessions to run on a datacenter server,
 which houses the applications and data. ...

 As the key technology partner to Bradford, Sun is not only providing the
 hardware, we're also designing the software that will facilitate learning.
 Using Sun's open source software as well as other open source educational
 software such as Moodlerooms, Sun has created an open source software
 environment for the school.

-
Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To unsubscribe, please 
visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html.  
Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/