Re: [backstage] iPlayer in Wii
LOL, my GF sent this to me almost as soon as the news release came out! she wants this so badly! And now she is complaining to me that programs seem to be missing or broken on the Wii version. :-( We went to watch Dr Who Confidential last night, the show stopped after 10mins... the flash video just ended. Today she went to watch the I'd do anything results show and it comes up with an error message on the Wii but works fine on the PC :-/ I realise the Wii version is in Beta but I said I would let you know :-) Dan - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer in Wii
On Sunday 13 April 2008 05:43:50 Brian Butterworth wrote: On 12/04/2008, Michael [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Saturday 12 April 2008 05:57:49 Brian Butterworth wrote: If it were all doing using HTTP it would be easily cached, of course, ... Ignores the fact that most caches will not cache objects over a certain size. .. Every proxy server I have set-up allows you to configure this! Indeed. I even mentioned that myself, where I mentioned that it'd probably need to be whitelisted (as a per domain limit). That said, it damages the purpose behind the proxy. If you change the core aim from speed saving to bandwidth, then whitelisting _sufficient_ amounts of large objects will drive the overall cache hit rate down since that is dominated by small objects. (since you can get better bandwith savings often by targetting sufficiently popular large files, reducing space for the massively more popular small files) If this goes down too far, then whilst your lower quartile response times will be dominated by the time it takes to serve a hit, if your median and upper quartile response times become dominated by median and upper quartile response times the user experience becomes massively uneven - with some things served incredibly quickly and some things (by comparison) incredibly slowly. The user may actually (from an objective viewpoint) be experiencing a quicker response time overall, but in that scenario, they would believe they were getting significantly worse. This isn't theoretical, I've seen this in a wide number of different caching deployments from small companies, universities through international ISPs where I've deployed (or trouble shooted) caching systems. When that happens, the users DO complain and push for the caching system to be turned off. In extreme cases users vote DO with their feet. If this is really a problem, then you could set up a server for each ISP with the files copied on their network with the Iplayer software being redirected to the fastest file when available. So, if you watch a programme on a BT (Phorm! boo, hiss) ISP line, you get the stream from iplayer.btinternet.com, on talktalk from iplayer.talktalk.com etc. Here you're talking about deploying a content distribution network with servers inside the ISPs, essentially, redirecting requests to the closest possible servers. This is precisely what many CDNs (include Akamai) do. If the BBC wanted to build out something similar then something based on Scattercast [1] would work well. [1] http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~brewer/papers/scattercast-mmsj.pdf http://research.chawathe.com/people/yatin/publications/thesis-single.pdf more bitesize: http://research.chawathe.com/people/yatin/publications/talks/stanford-netseminar.ppt I've deployed something based on it's principles in the past (at a different employer) integrated with a caching infrastructure- Scattercast was commercialised by a company called Fast Forward who disappearded a fair few years back, but the approach is sound and reimplementable given the PhD thesis linked is suffciiently detailed. Even if that approach is patented (unknown, and next to impossible to check if *no* part of the system is patented), then there are a multitude of others that can be taken since scattercast works essentially by doing multicast at application layer, with application packets. (a complete GOP for example rather than an IP packet) The implementation I worked with essentially performed its internal routing based on RIP with a static network definition, but there's no reason that that can't be done in a more modern dynamic way. However, there is a flip side. As people have repeatedly said here, some ISPs have sold people unlimited capacity, which they don't have, simply because current common usage patterns fit a certain bandwidth level and they've built their business model on that basis. That common usage pattern is changing, and that's hitting those ISPs bottom line. (In the case of ISPs who do already have a model that passes on costs in an upfront manner not claiming to be unlimited, they will naturally tout this.) Then there's various approaches - you either charge your real costs, you seek someone to blame or you find a way of working *with* content providers to reduce costs for both you and them to deliver a better service to your customers/their audience. (It's up to those businesses to decide how to deal with their mismarketing, though I do like the final option myself) Caching is part of the picture, CDN's (well MDNs in this case) another part, but also ISPs being clearer with their customers is another. After all, you shouldn't be able to claim unlimited for something limited, should you? I think I've said everything I've got worth saying there and leave it at that. I'm guessing you'll disagree with a substantial amount so I'll agree to disagree with you in advance :-) (far too nice weather out there
Re: [backstage] iPlayer in Wii
On 12/04/2008, Michael [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Saturday 12 April 2008 05:57:49 Brian Butterworth wrote: If it were all doing using HTTP it would be easily cached, of course, as you can do this with a proxy server, either a configured-in one as used on corporate and educational networks, or as a transparent proxy. Ignores the fact that most caches will not cache objects over a certain size. (The maximum usually based on average object size, which is dominated by small images and HTML). Also it depends on the purpose the cache is there for - speed or bandwidth savings, and even then you still need a maximum, it's just where you set it which will vary. Every proxy server I have set-up allows you to configure this! There is no reason whatsoever that large files cannot be cached, and even part-retrieved. If this is really a problem, then you could set up a server for each ISP with the files copied on their network with the Iplayer software being redirected to the fastest file when available. So, if you watch a programme on a BT (Phorm! boo, hiss) ISP line, you get the stream from iplayer.btinternet.com, on talktalk from iplayer.talktalk.com etc. If we are talking of saving the ISPs the billions of pounds they claim it cannot be beyond the wit of us programmes can it? There are algorithms that will take into account object size and popularity (combination of LFU GDS approaches), but they're still mainly targetted at object size distributions below the 90-95th percentile. You can use whitelisting, but the maintainence overhead of such a whitelist can become quite spectacular, and can depend on the purpose behind caching in their network ((peceived) speed saving or bandwidth saving[1]). Thus, whitelisting or changing the maximum object size can massively impacts the effectiveness of the cache infrastructure as a whole. [1] These two do not always correlate, since one is based on percentiles, the other is absolute figures. (I worked for the best part 5 years looking at this sort of stuff in great detail in both theoretical and (a wide variety of) operational environments, so I'm summarising :-) Also, none of this is any use for streaming over RTMP. (and HTTP streaming has major issues, not least the fact that you can't index sensibly by time without impacting (or working around) patents) NB. I'm all in favour of making websites cacheable where possible/reasonable since it's a really, really, good idea, but it's just worth remembering we're looking at outlying values regarding a non-HTTP protocol. Michael. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Please email me back if you need any more help. Brian Butterworth http://www.ukfree.tv
Re: [backstage] iPlayer in Wii
On Wed, 9 Apr 2008, Andy wrote: In case anyone hasn't seen the news: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7338344.stm Does anyone know if the BBC have something exclusive going with Nintendo or if there is a technical reason why this wouldn't work with the PS3? As far as I know the PS3 only supports flash 7 (for similar reasons to the wii I'd guess) so it could well be a candidate for being able to easily use this as well. I don't have a ps3, but my office mate is still searching for reasons why it's better than my xbox :) --billy -- http://billyabbott.co.uk - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer in Wii
am on wii now and can confirm that iplayer works. ish. I gave it a try earlier and I think it works rather well :-) Zoom in once with the + button and press 1 to get rid of the menu bar means that it fits my TV screen perfectly! aha... that's the info I was lacking... thank you... -t - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer in Wii
Damned fine link Derek. Although I don't have a Wii yet, I've hacked up iPlayerlist to have a Wii only templates. Its in the early stages, but you might want to give it a try. Thanks to Sean Lange, who suggested adding a pure black background for those on TVs where the iPlayer flash video doesn't fill the entire screen. Apparently there is an issue with the Auto-zoom, but Ill work on that when I get my hands on one of those blessed machines. Just point the Wii at http://iplayerlist.mibly.com or switch you user agent to a Wii one ;) Regards, Andy On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 7:21 PM, Derek Harvie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10 Apr 2008, at 18:26, Tom Loosemore wrote: am on wii now and can confirm that iplayer works. ish. I gave it a try earlier and I think it works rather well :-) Zoom in once with the + button and press 1 to get rid of the menu bar means that it fits my TV screen perfectly! aha... that's the info I was lacking... thank you... The people at iPlayer thought users would ask that and prepared a help page for it, despite it being an Wii Opera thing: http://iplayerhelp.external.bbc.co.uk/help/streaming_programmes/wii Not that it's easy to find their help pages... - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
[backstage] iPlayer in Wii
In case anyone hasn't seen the news: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7338344.stm Discuss. Andy - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer in Wii
On 09/04/2008, Andy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In case anyone hasn't seen the news: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7338344.stm Discuss. I believe you can install GNU+Linux on a Wii, and then you can use the MPEG4 streams to watch iPlayer content with free software on a Wii. The BBC-vs-ISP bandwidth issue could be resolved by the BBC dropping DRM so that the ISPs can cache the data. -- Regards, Dave - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer in Wii
On 09/04/2008, Andy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In case anyone hasn't seen the news: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7338344.stm I was interested in this bit: It is only available in the UK to licence-fee payers. Presumably that isn't what Huggers said, and has been journo-ified? Peter -- Peter Bowyer Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Follow me on Twitter: twitter.com/peeebeee - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer in Wii
In case anyone hasn't seen the news: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7338344.stm LOL, my GF sent this to me almost as soon as the news release came out! she wants this so badly! It says... Early versions of the service will be available from 9 April but more polished software will be released as the service is developed. ... anyone know how to get hold of an early version?? Dan - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] iPlayer in Wii
Anthony Rose has blogged about this: http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2008/04/bbc_iplayer_on_wii.html -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andy Sent: 09 April 2008 15:05 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: [backstage] iPlayer in Wii In case anyone hasn't seen the news: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7338344.stm Discuss. Andy - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer in Wii
Dave Crossland wrote: The BBC-vs-ISP bandwidth issue could be resolved by the BBC dropping DRM so that the ISPs can cache the data. The ISPs who are anticipating financial hardship are more concerned with the cost of bandwidth between their network and home ADSL users, and _not_ between their network and the outside world. This is because they are charged a metered rate by BT for all the traffic they relay over BT's ADSL network. Thus adding data caches to their network wouldn't solve their immediate problem. Cheers, David -- David McBride [EMAIL PROTECTED] Department of Computing, Imperial College, London signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [backstage] iPlayer in Wii
On Wed, 9 Apr 2008, Dave Crossland wrote: On 09/04/2008, Andy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In case anyone hasn't seen the news: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7338344.stm Discuss. I believe you can install GNU+Linux on a Wii, and then you can use the MPEG4 streams to watch iPlayer content with free software on a Wii. Currently, as far as I'm aware, there is no way to install anything unless you have a modded Wii. There's work on a LiveCD, but I think that's for modded ones as well (http://www.wiili.org has a bunch of details). I would be very happy to be proved wrong. --billy -- Billy Abbott http://billyabbott.co.uk - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer in Wii
On 09/04/2008, David McBride [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dave Crossland wrote: The BBC-vs-ISP bandwidth issue could be resolved by the BBC dropping DRM so that the ISPs can cache the data. The ISPs who are anticipating financial hardship are more concerned with the cost of bandwidth between their network and home ADSL users, and _not_ between their network and the outside world. This is because they are charged a metered rate by BT for all the traffic they relay over BT's ADSL network. Thus adding data caches to their network wouldn't solve their immediate problem. Ah okay, thanks for clarifying this! :-) I guess this is why the BBC CDN rumours have remained vapourware. -- Regards, Dave - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer in Wii
On Wed, 9 Apr 2008, Andy wrote: In case anyone hasn't seen the news: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7338344.stm My officemate just asked me if it worked on the PS3, as it also runs flash 7. I suspect the answer is no, but that shouldn't be much work on the beeb's side. The thing that caught my eye is the last paragraph in Anthony Rose's blog post (http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2008/04/bbc_iplayer_on_wii.html) As iPlayer usage on Wii takes off, we'll consider creating an optimised version of the iPlayer for Wii. Hopefully this won.t require people to shell out for the Internet Channel, and which will provide an optimized browsing and playback experience, perhaps even as a dedicated BBC iPlayer channel on Wii. The BBC building a Wii specific app for the iPlayer? I don't know of anyone other than Nintendo who has any channels released at the moment, so this could be a rather good thing in general. --billy - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer in Wii
Oh that's it. I need a wii now! The javascript fun you can have with wiis is awesome. I had a little hack around with them before (oddly within iplayerlist). Its all on the opera website. Think I might have to pursue this a little further. On 9 Apr 2008, at 15:04, Andy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In case anyone hasn't seen the news: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7338344.stm Discuss. Andy - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html . Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] iPlayer in Wii
On 09/04/2008, Andy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Oh that's it. I need a wii now! The javascript fun you can have with wiis is awesome. I had a little hack around with them before (oddly within iplayerlist). Its all on the opera website. Think I might have to pursue this a little further. On 9 Apr 2008, at 15:04, Andy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In case anyone hasn't seen the news: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7338344.stm Discuss. Andy - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ am on wii now and can confirm that iplayer works. ish. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
