Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?
Brian Butterworth wrote: The first version of Unix I used was on a PDP11! When I started doing system admin for Unix I learnt both System V and BSD. I used XWindows on Sparcstations! So, I have a rather blaze attitude to new versions of something I have known for a more than a few decades. Sorry... Gah. I always feel young round here. I can hardly ever join in discussions on vintage computing :( more and more - you don't think there is *any* relative improvement? I'm NOT in anyway talking about improvement. What I am saying is that for the masses to move to Linux, they need NO barriers at all. This is not about creating a better UI, it is about having a UI that you don't need to learn because it leverages the user's Windows skills. Only once you have got your users can you think of improving them. I'll assume that's just hyperbole. No, I trying to point out that Linux desktop acceptance needs present not a single hurdle to acceptance. I've seen it myself many times. You plonk the MD of the company, who used computers years ago, down in front of a non-windows machine. He click a few things, can't make it work straight away and decided it's rubbish, stick with Windows. If you in sales or marketing, then you're going to stick a Machead down and get them to use the Linux box. Again, it doesn't appear enough like a Mac, so they go to their backup Windows skills and still nothing. The wide-scale acceptance of a Linux operation system will depend on the people who make the decisions about purchase. This is, surely, self-evident. As a parallel, remember the iPlayer wasn't going to have a Mac version. And then Flash saved the day. How would all those Mac people in the media have reacted to a Mac-less iPlayer. The same way they did to 4OD. it doesn't work. I agree with your points, but dispute that it's not nearly there. I dislike this article for several reasons but http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2008/06/linux_ubuntu_blog.html if the catalyst has to be the publicity from claiming the UK has 400 linux users, so be it! ;) Now there are certainly issues encountered there, but he still makes some good points. How about a BBC Micro 2012 Edition...? FMT need another impossible tech project. Be more exciting than Bang Goes The Theory. If exciting means more likely to cause flame wars on backstage than iplayer then yes. :P The world does not need new gnu/linux distros IMHO. Tim :) - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?
2009/8/6 Tim Dobson li...@tdobson.net Brian Butterworth wrote: The first version of Unix I used was on a PDP11! When I started doing system admin for Unix I learnt both System V and BSD. I used XWindows on Sparcstations! So, I have a rather blaze attitude to new versions of something I have known for a more than a few decades. Sorry... Gah. I always feel young round here. I can hardly ever join in discussions on vintage computing :( [snip] I agree with your points, but dispute that it's not nearly there. I dislike this article for several reasons but http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2008/06/linux_ubuntu_blog.html if the catalyst has to be the publicity from claiming the UK has 400 linux users, so be it! ;) LOL. And we all know where AH is now. And what he spent his BBC expenses on. Now there are certainly issues encountered there, but he still makes some good points. How about a BBC Micro 2012 Edition...? FMT need another impossible tech project. Be more exciting than Bang Goes The Theory. If exciting means more likely to cause flame wars on backstage than iplayer then yes. :P The world does not need new gnu/linux distros IMHO. Yes, consumers probably like stability over endless choice in this department. Tim :) - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Brian Butterworth follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover advice, since 2002
Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?
Hey - I sent my then girlfriend a loveletter on paper punchtape, ASR-33 Teletype controlling a PDP-11 that ran a Motorola satnav receiver on the survey boat I was on in Papua New Guinea in 1971, it was probably an 11-23 and we booted it manually with switches until it could see the paper tape. She got someone in the Singapore office to dump out the paper tape and it must have worked as we married and had kids. I am of the blase camp as well in this respect - 'plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose' - try that in Google translate. Nico Morrison 2009/8/6 Brian Butterworth briant...@freeview.tv 2009/8/6 Tim Dobson li...@tdobson.net Brian Butterworth wrote: The first version of Unix I used was on a PDP11! When I started doing system admin for Unix I learnt both System V and BSD. I used XWindows on Sparcstations! So, I have a rather blaze attitude to new versions of something I have known for a more than a few decades. Sorry... Gah. I always feel young round here. I can hardly ever join in discussions on vintage computing :( [snip] I agree with your points, but dispute that it's not nearly there. I dislike this article for several reasons but http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2008/06/linux_ubuntu_blog.html if the catalyst has to be the publicity from claiming the UK has 400 linux users, so be it! ;) LOL. And we all know where AH is now. And what he spent his BBC expenses on. Now there are certainly issues encountered there, but he still makes some good points. How about a BBC Micro 2012 Edition...? FMT need another impossible tech project. Be more exciting than Bang Goes The Theory. If exciting means more likely to cause flame wars on backstage than iplayer then yes. :P The world does not need new gnu/linux distros IMHO. Yes, consumers probably like stability over endless choice in this department. Tim :) - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Brian Butterworth follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover advice, since 2002
Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?
How about a BBC Micro 2012 Edition...? FMT need another impossible tech project. Be more exciting than Bang Goes The Theory. Funnily enough I was thinking about the same thing a couple of days ago, somehow I fear that devices conforming to the Canvas Project specification won't have some sort of BBC Basic built in! - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?
In those days, of course, everything cost sixpence, was made of wood and lasted forever. (Cue Dvorak's Symphony for the New World in the background) :-) R. On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 10:16 AM, Nico Morrisonmicroni...@gmail.com wrote: Hey - I sent my then girlfriend a loveletter on paper punchtape, ASR-33 Teletype controlling a PDP-11 that ran a Motorola satnav receiver on the survey boat I was on in Papua New Guinea in 1971, it was probably an 11-23 and we booted it manually with switches until it could see the paper tape. She got someone in the Singapore office to dump out the paper tape and it must have worked as we married and had kids. I am of the blase camp as well in this respect - 'plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose' - try that in Google translate. Nico Morrison 2009/8/6 Brian Butterworth briant...@freeview.tv 2009/8/6 Tim Dobson li...@tdobson.net Brian Butterworth wrote: The first version of Unix I used was on a PDP11! When I started doing system admin for Unix I learnt both System V and BSD. I used XWindows on Sparcstations! So, I have a rather blaze attitude to new versions of something I have known for a more than a few decades. Sorry... Gah. I always feel young round here. I can hardly ever join in discussions on vintage computing :( [snip] I agree with your points, but dispute that it's not nearly there. I dislike this article for several reasons but http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2008/06/linux_ubuntu_blog.html if the catalyst has to be the publicity from claiming the UK has 400 linux users, so be it! ;) LOL. And we all know where AH is now. And what he spent his BBC expenses on. Now there are certainly issues encountered there, but he still makes some good points. How about a BBC Micro 2012 Edition...? FMT need another impossible tech project. Be more exciting than Bang Goes The Theory. If exciting means more likely to cause flame wars on backstage than iplayer then yes. :P The world does not need new gnu/linux distros IMHO. Yes, consumers probably like stability over endless choice in this department. Tim :) - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Brian Butterworth follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover advice, since 2002 - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?
Try 16K memory, ferrite core, weighed 80lbs in 19 rack, That was in addition to the 4K main memory. I prefer Bach, NM 2009/8/6 Richard Lockwood richard.lockw...@gmail.com In those days, of course, everything cost sixpence, was made of wood and lasted forever. (Cue Dvorak's Symphony for the New World in the background) :-) R. On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 10:16 AM, Nico Morrisonmicroni...@gmail.com wrote: Hey - I sent my then girlfriend a loveletter on paper punchtape, ASR-33 Teletype controlling a PDP-11 that ran a Motorola satnav receiver on the survey boat I was on in Papua New Guinea in 1971, it was probably an 11-23 and we booted it manually with switches until it could see the paper tape. She got someone in the Singapore office to dump out the paper tape and it must have worked as we married and had kids. I am of the blase camp as well in this respect - 'plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose' - try that in Google translate. Nico Morrison 2009/8/6 Brian Butterworth briant...@freeview.tv 2009/8/6 Tim Dobson li...@tdobson.net Brian Butterworth wrote: The first version of Unix I used was on a PDP11! When I started doing system admin for Unix I learnt both System V and BSD. I used XWindows on Sparcstations! So, I have a rather blaze attitude to new versions of something I have known for a more than a few decades. Sorry... Gah. I always feel young round here. I can hardly ever join in discussions on vintage computing :( [snip] I agree with your points, but dispute that it's not nearly there. I dislike this article for several reasons but http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2008/06/linux_ubuntu_blog.html if the catalyst has to be the publicity from claiming the UK has 400 linux users, so be it! ;) LOL. And we all know where AH is now. And what he spent his BBC expenses on. Now there are certainly issues encountered there, but he still makes some good points. How about a BBC Micro 2012 Edition...? FMT need another impossible tech project. Be more exciting than Bang Goes The Theory. If exciting means more likely to cause flame wars on backstage than iplayer then yes. :P The world does not need new gnu/linux distros IMHO. Yes, consumers probably like stability over endless choice in this department. Tim :) - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Brian Butterworth follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover advice, since 2002 - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?
But surely none of this will matter in the next few years? The Platform is the Internet. *runs and ducks for cover* Although I got to say, with the developments at Google, Mozilla Labs, Palm and even Opera. I'm starting to think Tim Oreilly was right. Ian Forrester This e-mail is: []secret; []private; [x]public Senior Producer, BBC Backstage, BBC RD Room 1044, BBC Manchester BH, Oxford Road, M60 1SJ email: ian.forres...@bbc.co.uk work: +44 (0)1612444063 | mob: +44 (0)7711913293 -Original Message- From: owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk [mailto:owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk] On Behalf Of Richard Lockwood Sent: 04 August 2009 20:40 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out? Right. I think that sums it up. If I tell my Mum that, she'll look at me as though I'm from Mars. To be honest, as a non-Linux user, but experienced computer user, I have no idea what the hell DEB or RPM are. If that's the best sell you can do, it just demonstrates that desktop Linux still isn't ready for the day to day computer user. Cheers, Rich. On Tue, Aug 4, 2009 at 1:03 PM, Andrew Bowdenandrew.bow...@bbc.co.uk wrote: Most Linux software is now available in DEB or RPM format. There's some smaller packages that aren't, and commercial companies have a habit of not fitting in. But frankly most modern distros take an RPM and DEB and know exactly what to do with it so that the user need do little more than click on the file. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?
Actually, I would be right up for writing a BBC Basic interpreter for set-top boxes. Probably have to have some MHEG5-type interface, but the idea is quite workable. Not sure about how to make it support XML yet... 2009/8/6 John Styles hpeng...@gmail.com How about a BBC Micro 2012 Edition...? FMT need another impossible tech project. Be more exciting than Bang Goes The Theory. Funnily enough I was thinking about the same thing a couple of days ago, somehow I fear that devices conforming to the Canvas Project specification won't have some sort of BBC Basic built in! - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Brian Butterworth follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover advice, since 2002
Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?
2009/8/6 Nico Morrison microni...@gmail.com Hey - I sent my then girlfriend a loveletter on paper punchtape, ASR-33 Teletype controlling a PDP-11 that ran a Motorola satnav receiver on the survey boat I was on in Papua New Guinea in 1971, it was probably an 11-23 and we booted it manually with switches until it could see the paper tape. She got someone in the Singapore office to dump out the paper tape and it must have worked as we married and had kids. That made me smile. Douglas Adams (Dawkins rest his soul) said he used to wonder what the nerds playing with tickertape at school were up to - finally discovering that it was running the world. I am of the blase camp as well in this respect - 'plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose' - try that in Google translate. C'est n'est pas un courrier électronique. Nico Morrison 2009/8/6 Brian Butterworth briant...@freeview.tv 2009/8/6 Tim Dobson li...@tdobson.net Brian Butterworth wrote: The first version of Unix I used was on a PDP11! When I started doing system admin for Unix I learnt both System V and BSD. I used XWindows on Sparcstations! So, I have a rather blaze attitude to new versions of something I have known for a more than a few decades. Sorry... Gah. I always feel young round here. I can hardly ever join in discussions on vintage computing :( [snip] I agree with your points, but dispute that it's not nearly there. I dislike this article for several reasons but http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2008/06/linux_ubuntu_blog.html if the catalyst has to be the publicity from claiming the UK has 400 linux users, so be it! ;) LOL. And we all know where AH is now. And what he spent his BBC expenses on. Now there are certainly issues encountered there, but he still makes some good points. How about a BBC Micro 2012 Edition...? FMT need another impossible tech project. Be more exciting than Bang Goes The Theory. If exciting means more likely to cause flame wars on backstage than iplayer then yes. :P The world does not need new gnu/linux distros IMHO. Yes, consumers probably like stability over endless choice in this department. Tim :) - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Brian Butterworth follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover advice, since 2002 -- Brian Butterworth follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover advice, since 2002
Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?
Thanks to Spotify, I am... spotify:album:2n8DmRJMWH9Y3UmnCzMtho 2009/8/6 Richard Lockwood richard.lockw...@gmail.com In those days, of course, everything cost sixpence, was made of wood and lasted forever. (Cue Dvorak's Symphony for the New World in the background) :-) R. On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 10:16 AM, Nico Morrisonmicroni...@gmail.com wrote: Hey - I sent my then girlfriend a loveletter on paper punchtape, ASR-33 Teletype controlling a PDP-11 that ran a Motorola satnav receiver on the survey boat I was on in Papua New Guinea in 1971, it was probably an 11-23 and we booted it manually with switches until it could see the paper tape. She got someone in the Singapore office to dump out the paper tape and it must have worked as we married and had kids. I am of the blase camp as well in this respect - 'plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose' - try that in Google translate. Nico Morrison 2009/8/6 Brian Butterworth briant...@freeview.tv 2009/8/6 Tim Dobson li...@tdobson.net Brian Butterworth wrote: The first version of Unix I used was on a PDP11! When I started doing system admin for Unix I learnt both System V and BSD. I used XWindows on Sparcstations! So, I have a rather blaze attitude to new versions of something I have known for a more than a few decades. Sorry... Gah. I always feel young round here. I can hardly ever join in discussions on vintage computing :( [snip] I agree with your points, but dispute that it's not nearly there. I dislike this article for several reasons but http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2008/06/linux_ubuntu_blog.html if the catalyst has to be the publicity from claiming the UK has 400 linux users, so be it! ;) LOL. And we all know where AH is now. And what he spent his BBC expenses on. Now there are certainly issues encountered there, but he still makes some good points. How about a BBC Micro 2012 Edition...? FMT need another impossible tech project. Be more exciting than Bang Goes The Theory. If exciting means more likely to cause flame wars on backstage than iplayer then yes. :P The world does not need new gnu/linux distros IMHO. Yes, consumers probably like stability over endless choice in this department. Tim :) - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Brian Butterworth follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover advice, since 2002 - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Brian Butterworth follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover advice, since 2002
RE: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?
Wouldn't be the first set top box to run BBC Basic. Many years ago I did some development for the KIT platform that used Pace DSL 4000 boxes. These were based on the Acorn Risc PC and could be given a *BASIC command to drop them into BBC Basic V. -- Gareth Davis | Production Systems Specialist World Service Future Media, Digital Delivery Team - Part of BBC Global News Division * http://www.bbcworldservice.com/ http://www.bbcworldservice.com/ * 702NE Bush House, Strand, London, WC2B 4PH From: owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk [mailto:owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk] On Behalf Of Brian Butterworth Sent: 06 August 2009 14:22 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out? Actually, I would be right up for writing a BBC Basic interpreter for set-top boxes. Probably have to have some MHEG5-type interface, but the idea is quite workable. Not sure about how to make it support XML yet... 2009/8/6 John Styles hpeng...@gmail.com How about a BBC Micro 2012 Edition...? FMT need another impossible tech project. Be more exciting than Bang Goes The Theory. Funnily enough I was thinking about the same thing a couple of days ago, somehow I fear that devices conforming to the Canvas Project specification won't have some sort of BBC Basic built in! - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Brian Butterworth follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover advice, since 2002
Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?
Ah, the RISCOS version of BBC Basic. What a genuine joy that was to program in, with in-line RISC assembly. 2009/8/6 Gareth Davis gareth.da...@bbc.co.uk Wouldn't be the first set top box to run BBC Basic. Many years ago I did some development for the KIT platform that used Pace DSL 4000 boxes. These were based on the Acorn Risc PC and could be given a *BASIC command to drop them into BBC Basic V. -- *Gareth Davis* | Production Systems Specialist World Service Future Media, Digital Delivery Team - Part of BBC Global News Division 8 http://www.bbcworldservice.com/ + 702NE Bush House, Strand, London, WC2B 4PH -- *From:* owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk [mailto: owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk] *On Behalf Of *Brian Butterworth *Sent:* 06 August 2009 14:22 *To:* backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk *Subject:* Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out? Actually, I would be right up for writing a BBC Basic interpreter for set-top boxes. Probably have to have some MHEG5-type interface, but the idea is quite workable. Not sure about how to make it support XML yet... 2009/8/6 John Styles hpeng...@gmail.com How about a BBC Micro 2012 Edition...? FMT need another impossible tech project. Be more exciting than Bang Goes The Theory. Funnily enough I was thinking about the same thing a couple of days ago, somehow I fear that devices conforming to the Canvas Project specification won't have some sort of BBC Basic built in! - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Brian Butterworth follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover advice, since 2002 -- Brian Butterworth follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover advice, since 2002
Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?
On 4 Aug 2009, at 23:07, Dave Crossland wrote: Why should economics trump freedom? Would you scrap free elections if it was better for the economy? China is proving that free elections are not needed for a efficient capitalist market system. Well, freedom's great, but you can't eat it. Luckily freedom and economic growth aren't always mutually exclusive. :-) S - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?
Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose -Original Message- From: owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk [mailto:owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk] On Behalf Of Stephen Jolly Sent: 05 August 2009 07:03 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out? On 4 Aug 2009, at 23:07, Dave Crossland wrote: Why should economics trump freedom? Would you scrap free elections if it was better for the economy? China is proving that free elections are not needed for a efficient capitalist market system. Well, freedom's great, but you can't eat it. Luckily freedom and economic growth aren't always mutually exclusive. :-) S - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?
Janis lives! And it's called sharing and consensus - something the West is conspicuously BAD at. Which is why open-source, Wikipedia and the others are so crucially important. NMM 2009/8/5 Nick Reynolds-FMT nick.reyno...@bbc.co.uk Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose -Original Message- From: owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk [mailto:owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk] On Behalf Of Stephen Jolly Sent: 05 August 2009 07:03 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out? On 4 Aug 2009, at 23:07, Dave Crossland wrote: Why should economics trump freedom? Would you scrap free elections if it was better for the economy? China is proving that free elections are not needed for a efficient capitalist market system. Well, freedom's great, but you can't eat it. Luckily freedom and economic growth aren't always mutually exclusive. :-) S - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?
sharing and consensus are not the same as freedom From: owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk [mailto:owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk] On Behalf Of Nico Morrison Sent: 05 August 2009 09:24 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out? Janis lives! And it's called sharing and consensus - something the West is conspicuously BAD at. Which is why open-source, Wikipedia and the others are so crucially important. NMM 2009/8/5 Nick Reynolds-FMT nick.reyno...@bbc.co.uk Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose -Original Message- From: owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk [mailto:owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk] On Behalf Of Stephen Jolly Sent: 05 August 2009 07:03 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out? On 4 Aug 2009, at 23:07, Dave Crossland wrote: Why should economics trump freedom? Would you scrap free elections if it was better for the economy? China is proving that free elections are not needed for a efficient capitalist market system. Well, freedom's great, but you can't eat it. Luckily freedom and economic growth aren't always mutually exclusive. :-) S - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?
Please forgive me but I'm very confused about some of the points you're trying to me and just want to clarify exactly what you mean. Brian Butterworth wrote: snip So, the biggest problem for most users with non-Windows systems is that it's not Windows. Yup, I got all that and completely agree. Interestingly this isn't a problem if you teach the users from day one. Windows, being Borg software has accumulated bits from every other OS and software package along the way. For example, to close a Windows window, you can: - press the X button in the top right - press the invisible button at the top left and choose close - press Alt F4 - right click on the taskband icon and choose close window I can do all these, exactly how you have described, in ubuntu To maximize: - click the second-in button at the top right - double click on the title bar - right click the invible top left icon and choose maximuze - press alt-space-X - press Windows+Up I can do all of these bar the last two, which I'm fairly sure were introduced from Vista onwards. Also, I appear to be able to do alt-F10 Another good example is the use of the menus. In Windows you can use the click-click-click method to select from menus, but you can also do the MacOS click-drag-drag-drag-release method I'm can do the same thing here. as well as F10+arrowkeys+enter and [Alt]+arrowkeys+enter I can do Alt-F1, arrow, arrow, enter. I think the biggest problem for most X-Windows based Linux systems is that they generally have just native support for these kind of actions. Sorry this is what I'm confused about. What do you mean just 'native' support? Perhaps you could explain what you mean here a bit better as I fail to understand how this leads on to your next point, sorry! It is this kind of thing that has made Windows dominant and IMHO the very thing that prevents larger-scale Linux use. Microsoft used to have things like help for WordPerfect users in Word and help for 123 users in Excel. Linux distributions just don't have that KILLER instinct that Microsoft used to have. I'm fairly sure there are various guides for windows users switching. For instance I'm fairly sure the OO.o help has sections like that. Oh, and Windows 7 is so good I would pay for it. I would (and have) paid for Ubuntu Debian GNU/Linux in the past. Glad your happy though! Cheers, Tim - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?
We seem to have drifted off topic, can we not go back to complaining that the BBC won't let me run iPlayer on my Tesco Value Toaster and store the programmes indefinitely in the bread bin?! John On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 10:10 AM, Tim Dobsonli...@tdobson.net wrote: Please forgive me but I'm very confused about some of the points you're trying to me and just want to clarify exactly what you mean. Brian Butterworth wrote: snip So, the biggest problem for most users with non-Windows systems is that it's not Windows. Yup, I got all that and completely agree. Interestingly this isn't a problem if you teach the users from day one. Windows, being Borg software has accumulated bits from every other OS and software package along the way. For example, to close a Windows window, you can: - press the X button in the top right - press the invisible button at the top left and choose close - press Alt F4 - right click on the taskband icon and choose close window I can do all these, exactly how you have described, in ubuntu To maximize: - click the second-in button at the top right - double click on the title bar - right click the invible top left icon and choose maximuze - press alt-space-X - press Windows+Up I can do all of these bar the last two, which I'm fairly sure were introduced from Vista onwards. Also, I appear to be able to do alt-F10 Another good example is the use of the menus. In Windows you can use the click-click-click method to select from menus, but you can also do the MacOS click-drag-drag-drag-release method I'm can do the same thing here. as well as F10+arrowkeys+enter and [Alt]+arrowkeys+enter I can do Alt-F1, arrow, arrow, enter. I think the biggest problem for most X-Windows based Linux systems is that they generally have just native support for these kind of actions. Sorry this is what I'm confused about. What do you mean just 'native' support? Perhaps you could explain what you mean here a bit better as I fail to understand how this leads on to your next point, sorry! It is this kind of thing that has made Windows dominant and IMHO the very thing that prevents larger-scale Linux use. Microsoft used to have things like help for WordPerfect users in Word and help for 123 users in Excel. Linux distributions just don't have that KILLER instinct that Microsoft used to have. I'm fairly sure there are various guides for windows users switching. For instance I'm fairly sure the OO.o help has sections like that. Oh, and Windows 7 is so good I would pay for it. I would (and have) paid for Ubuntu Debian GNU/Linux in the past. Glad your happy though! Cheers, Tim - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?
I compressed the run time on my toaster and now it won't shut up about grilled bread products. Lister On 5 Aug 2009, at 10:16, John Styles wrote: We seem to have drifted off topic, can we not go back to complaining that the BBC won't let me run iPlayer on my Tesco Value Toaster and store the programmes indefinitely in the bread bin?! John On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 10:10 AM, Tim Dobsonli...@tdobson.net wrote: Please forgive me but I'm very confused about some of the points you're trying to me and just want to clarify exactly what you mean. Brian Butterworth wrote: snip So, the biggest problem for most users with non-Windows systems is that it's not Windows. Yup, I got all that and completely agree. Interestingly this isn't a problem if you teach the users from day one. Windows, being Borg software has accumulated bits from every other OS and software package along the way. For example, to close a Windows window, you can: - press the X button in the top right - press the invisible button at the top left and choose close - press Alt F4 - right click on the taskband icon and choose close window I can do all these, exactly how you have described, in ubuntu To maximize: - click the second-in button at the top right - double click on the title bar - right click the invible top left icon and choose maximuze - press alt-space-X - press Windows+Up I can do all of these bar the last two, which I'm fairly sure were introduced from Vista onwards. Also, I appear to be able to do alt-F10 Another good example is the use of the menus. In Windows you can use the click-click-click method to select from menus, but you can also do the MacOS click-drag-drag-drag-release method I'm can do the same thing here. as well as F10+arrowkeys+enter and [Alt]+arrowkeys+enter I can do Alt-F1, arrow, arrow, enter. I think the biggest problem for most X-Windows based Linux systems is that they generally have just native support for these kind of actions. Sorry this is what I'm confused about. What do you mean just 'native' support? Perhaps you could explain what you mean here a bit better as I fail to understand how this leads on to your next point, sorry! It is this kind of thing that has made Windows dominant and IMHO the very thing that prevents larger-scale Linux use. Microsoft used to have things like help for WordPerfect users in Word and help for 123 users in Excel. Linux distributions just don't have that KILLER instinct that Microsoft used to have. I'm fairly sure there are various guides for windows users switching. For instance I'm fairly sure the OO.o help has sections like that. Oh, and Windows 7 is so good I would pay for it. I would (and have) paid for Ubuntu Debian GNU/Linux in the past. Glad your happy though! Cheers, Tim - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html . Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?
Alex Mace wrote: I compressed the run time on my toaster and now it won't shut up about grilled bread products. Lister Waffles, anyone? - Richard - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?
Alex Mace wrote: I compressed the run time on my toaster and now it won't shut up about grilled bread products. Other hot flat snacks are available. -- Frank Wales [fr...@limov.com] - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?
On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 10:10 AM, Tim Dobsonli...@tdobson.net wrote:ions like that. Oh, and Windows 7 is so good I would pay for it. Second that. Been testing it out for months and love it. IE still really sucks though. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?
On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 10:16 AM, John Styleshpeng...@gmail.com wrote: We seem to have drifted off topic, can we not go back to complaining that the BBC won't let me run iPlayer on my Tesco Value Toaster and store the programmes indefinitely in the bread bin?! John Hahaha that was brilliant - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?
Tim, The point about the very specific examples that I gave was that as a group Windows users have a strange and wide-ranging levels of understanding of the system they are using. If you started with Windows 1.21 or your first times is with Windows 7, the skills you learn will stay with you. Even if you came to Windows via Mac/OS or GEM or OS/2 PM or X-Windows or Xerox Star .. you bring along a subset of the whole range of things you can do with Windows. Because Linux does not have the attitude of Windows, a PC on every desktop and in every home it has taken shortcuts. So, everytime there isn't a usability study into the user experience of a Linux release, there just isn't the attention to detail. Someone goes, as you did I can do Alt-F1, arrow, arrow, enter. you drop some potential new users, because Linux doesn't understand them. Given that a modern OS has huge qualities of these components, many small UI failings means the Linux interface fails for more and more people. Someday, someone will stick a few million dollars into sorting this out and there will be a perfect release of Linux that anyone can use BY BRINING WHAT THEY KNOW OF WINDOWS on a personally deep level. This does not mean that Linux should simply ape Windows. But it does mean that as an absolute minimum it should behave as everyone (as individuals) expect. I know I can use any interface that is presented to me. I'm happy with a VT100 and vi. That's the problem with Linux, it's designed by people like us and not for every home, every desk. 2009/8/5 Tim Dobson li...@tdobson.net Please forgive me but I'm very confused about some of the points you're trying to me and just want to clarify exactly what you mean. Brian Butterworth wrote: snip So, the biggest problem for most users with non-Windows systems is that it's not Windows. Yup, I got all that and completely agree. Interestingly this isn't a problem if you teach the users from day one. Windows, being Borg software has accumulated bits from every other OS and software package along the way. For example, to close a Windows window, you can: - press the X button in the top right - press the invisible button at the top left and choose close - press Alt F4 - right click on the taskband icon and choose close window I can do all these, exactly how you have described, in ubuntu To maximize: - click the second-in button at the top right - double click on the title bar - right click the invible top left icon and choose maximuze - press alt-space-X - press Windows+Up I can do all of these bar the last two, which I'm fairly sure were introduced from Vista onwards. Also, I appear to be able to do alt-F10 Another good example is the use of the menus. In Windows you can use the click-click-click method to select from menus, but you can also do the MacOS click-drag-drag-drag-release method I'm can do the same thing here. as well as F10+arrowkeys+enter and [Alt]+arrowkeys+enter I can do Alt-F1, arrow, arrow, enter. I think the biggest problem for most X-Windows based Linux systems is that they generally have just native support for these kind of actions. Sorry this is what I'm confused about. What do you mean just 'native' support? Perhaps you could explain what you mean here a bit better as I fail to understand how this leads on to your next point, sorry! It is this kind of thing that has made Windows dominant and IMHO the very thing that prevents larger-scale Linux use. Microsoft used to have things like help for WordPerfect users in Word and help for 123 users in Excel. Linux distributions just don't have that KILLER instinct that Microsoft used to have. I'm fairly sure there are various guides for windows users switching. For instance I'm fairly sure the OO.o help has sections like that. Oh, and Windows 7 is so good I would pay for it. I would (and have) paid for Ubuntu Debian GNU/Linux in the past. Glad your happy though! Cheers, Tim - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Brian Butterworth follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover advice, since 2002
Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?
2009/8/5 Tim Dobson li...@tdobson.net Thanks Brian, That's made what you were saying loads clearer to me. :) As I had suspected, I fundamentally disagree, but at least I'm clear about what I'm disagreeing with now. Thank you! Excellent. Agreeing about this never gets anyone anywhere. Please see comments inline. Brian Butterworth wrote: The point about the very specific examples that I gave was that as a group Windows users have a strange and wide-ranging levels of understanding of the system they are using. I realise these are very specific examples so I'm not going labour any points about those specific examples. If you started with Windows 1.21 or your first times is with Windows 7, the skills you learn will stay with you. Even if you came to Windows via Mac/OS or GEM or OS/2 PM or X-Windows or Xerox Star .. you bring along a subset of the whole range of things you can do with Windows. Because Linux does not have the attitude of Windows, a PC on every desktop and in every home it has taken shortcuts. So, everytime there isn't a usability study into the user experience of a Linux release, there just isn't the attention to detail. I'm not going to go into the pedantic semantics on what one means by Linux release (kernel.org are sure good at end user UI! ;) ) but I think it might be worth looking at this project from one of the major GNU/Linux desktop environments, GNOME: http://live.gnome.org/UsabilityProject There once was a time when functionality was the biggie for distro. Now it's usability and they are making leaps and bounds. The first version of Unix I used was on a PDP11! When I started doing system admin for Unix I learnt both System V and BSD. I used XWindows on Sparcstations! So, I have a rather blaze attitude to new versions of something I have known for a more than a few decades. Sorry... Someone goes, as you did I can do Alt-F1, arrow, arrow, enter. you drop some potential new users, because Linux doesn't understand them. Given that a modern OS has huge qualities of these components, many small UI failings means the Linux interface fails for more and more people. more and more - you don't think there is *any* relative improvement? I'm NOT in anyway talking about improvement. What I am saying is that for the masses to move to Linux, they need NO barriers at all. This is not about creating a better UI, it is about having a UI that you don't need to learn because it leverages the user's Windows skills. Only once you have got your users can you think of improving them. I'll assume that's just hyperbole. No, I trying to point out that Linux desktop acceptance needs present not a single hurdle to acceptance. I've seen it myself many times. You plonk the MD of the company, who used computers years ago, down in front of a non-windows machine. He click a few things, can't make it work straight away and decided it's rubbish, stick with Windows. If you in sales or marketing, then you're going to stick a Machead down and get them to use the Linux box. Again, it doesn't appear enough like a Mac, so they go to their backup Windows skills and still nothing. The wide-scale acceptance of a Linux operation system will depend on the people who make the decisions about purchase. This is, surely, self-evident. As a parallel, remember the iPlayer wasn't going to have a Mac version. And then Flash saved the day. How would all those Mac people in the media have reacted to a Mac-less iPlayer. The same way they did to 4OD. it doesn't work. Let's think for a moment about start menus or menus to launch programs. The actual name is irrelevant. [snip] There is a simple way to sort this out ... make it do what the user expects. Especially if the user has ingrained their knowledge below their personal perception threshold. There was a guy I tried to help the other day who just couldn't get the hang of the mouse. Can most UI designers remember how they learnt THAT skill? I won't reiterate the article but just point out that as anyone on the latest version of ubuntu will know, notification windows ROCK now. Someday, someone will stick a few million dollars into sorting this out and there will be a perfect release of Linux that anyone can use BY BRINING WHAT THEY KNOW OF WINDOWS on a personally deep level. Well there's at least one notable multimillionaire throwing money at this at the moment. http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/223 Yes, perhaps. This does not mean that Linux should simply ape Windows. But it does mean that as an absolute minimum it should behave as everyone (as individuals) expect. Including the requirement of antivirus, application level firewalls and $latestwindowsworm? I jest, obviously not and you are right that the UI needs to conform to standards, be interoperable and seamless from technology to technology. Yes. This is 100% my point. It doesn't matter
Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?
The problem with a 'free digital society' is that people need salaries. Ask the music/film industry what they think. I love the idea of utopia but we all know that unicorns don't exist, right? On 3 Aug 2009, at 20:14, Dave Crossland d...@lab6.com wrote: Hi, What about the case for a free digital society? Regards, Dave On 3 Aug 2009, 6:36 PM, Alun Rowe alun.r...@pentangle.co.uk wrote: No doubt some palms will be crossed with silver (or equity). The business case for open standards has to be thought through ingreat depth before embracing it. Also Skypes network has been around for a longtime! On 3 Aug 2009, at 17:10, Dave Crossland d...@lab6.com wrote: Proprietary software and centtalised network services strike again... Regards, Dave ... Alun Rowe Pentangle Internet Limited 2 Buttermarket Thame Oxfordshire OX9 3EW Tel: +44 8700 339905 Fax: +44 8700 339906 Please direct all support requests to it-supp...@pentangle.co.uk Pentangle Internet Limited is a limited company registered in England and Wales. Registered number: 3960918. Registered office: 1 Lauras Close, Great Staughton, Cambridgeshire PE19 5DP Discuss mailing list disc...@lists.autonomo.us http://lists.autonomo.us/mailman/list ... This message (and any associated files) is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is confidential, subject to copyright or constitutes a trade secret. If you are not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any dissemination, copying or distribution of this message, or files associated with this message, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. Messages sent to and from us may be monitored. Internet communications cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error- free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. Therefore, we do not accept responsibility for any errors or omissions that are present in this message, or any attachment, that have arisen as a result of e-mail transmission. If verification is required, please request a hard-copy version. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. Alun Rowe Pentangle Internet Limited 2 Buttermarket Thame Oxfordshire OX9 3EW Tel: +44 8700 339905 Fax: +44 8700 339906 Please direct all support requests to mailto:it-supp...@pentangle.co.uk Pentangle Internet Limited is a limited company registered in England and Wales. Registered number: 3960918. Registered office: 1 Lauras Close, Great Staughton, Cambridgeshire PE19 5DP
Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?
2009/8/4 Alun Rowe alun.r...@pentangle.co.uk The problem with a 'free digital society' is that people need salaries. ah, the old confusion of gratis and libre. Ask the music/film industry what they think. I love the idea of utopia but we all know that unicorns don't exist, right? On 3 Aug 2009, at 20:14, Dave Crossland d...@lab6.com wrote: Hi, What about the case for a free digital society? Regards, Dave On 3 Aug 2009, 6:36 PM, Alun Rowe alun.r...@pentangle.co.uk alun.r...@pentangle.co.uk wrote: No doubt some palms will be crossed with silver (or equity). The business case for open standards has to be thought through ingreat depth before embracing it. Also Skypes network has been around for a longtime! On 3 Aug 2009, at 17:10, Dave Crossland d...@lab6.comd...@lab6.com wrote: Proprietary software and centtalised network services strike again... Regards, Dave ... *Alun Rowe* *Pentangle Internet Limited* 2 Buttermarket Thame Oxfordshire OX9 3EW Tel: +44 8700 339905 Fax: +44 8700 339906 *Please direct all support requests to **it-supp...@pentangle.co.uk*it-supp...@pentangle.co.uk Pentangle Internet Limited is a limited company registered in England and Wales. Registered number: 3960918. Registered office: 1 Lauras Close, Great Staughton, Cambridgeshire PE19 5DP Discuss mailing list disc...@lists.autonomo.us disc...@lists.autonomo.us http://lists.autonomo.us/mailman/list. http://lists.autonomo.us/mailman/list... This message (and any associated files) is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is confidential, subject to copyright or constitutes a trade secret. If you are not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any dissemination, copying or distribution of this message, or files associated with this message, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. Messages sent to and from us may be monitored. Internet communications cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. Therefore, we do not accept responsibility for any errors or omissions that are present in this message, or any attachment, that have arisen as a result of e-mail transmission. If verification is required, please request a hard-copy version. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. *Alun Rowe* *Pentangle Internet Limited* 2 Buttermarket Thame Oxfordshire OX9 3EW Tel: +44 8700 339905 Fax: +44 8700 339906 *Please direct all support requests to **it-supp...@pentangle.co.uk*it-supp...@pentangle.co.uk Pentangle Internet Limited is a limited company registered in England and Wales. Registered number: 3960918. Registered office: 1 Lauras Close, Great Staughton, Cambridgeshire PE19 5DP -- Brian Butterworth follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover advice, since 2002
Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?
Have you heard of Red Hat? On 4 Aug 2009, 7:02 AM, Alun Rowe alun.r...@pentangle.co.uk wrote: The problem with a 'free digital society' is that people need salaries. Ask the music/film industry what they think. I love the idea of utopia but we all know that unicorns don't exist, right? On 3 Aug 2009, at 20:14, Dave Crossland d...@lab6.com wrote: Hi, What about the case fo... Alun Rowe Pentangle Internet Limited 2 Buttermarket Thame Oxfordshire OX9 3EW Tel: +44 8700 33...
Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?
On Tue, Aug 4, 2009 at 08:13, Dave Crossland d...@lab6.com wrote: Have you heard of Red Hat? There was an episode of Global Business on the World Service about them last week http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p003r602
Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?
Yes I have but it is fairly unique. How would you obtain funding for an idea which had no IP of it own? ³Do you own the patent on this?² - er no it¹s open source. ³Can anyone arrive in the marketplace tomorrow and replicate what you do?² - er yes. Like I say I love the utopian model but I can¹t see it happening for a long long time. Companies NEED to be able to maintain their own technology without simply passing it to their competitors on a plate. Anyway it¹s no surprise people pay Red Hat for support. Mere users don¹t stand a chance with anything Linux based. It¹s far too geeky to use still. Alun On 04/08/2009 08:13, Dave Crossland d...@lab6.com wrote: Have you heard of Red Hat? On 4 Aug 2009, 7:02 AM, Alun Rowe alun.r...@pentangle.co.uk wrote: The problem with a 'free digital society' is that people need salaries. Ask the music/film industry what they think. I love the idea of utopia but we all know that unicorns don't exist, right? On 3 Aug 2009, at 20:14, Dave Crossland d...@lab6.com wrote: Hi, What about the case fo... Alun Rowe Pentangle Internet Limited 2 Buttermarket Thame Oxfordshire OX9 3EW Tel: +44 8700 33... This message (and any associated files) is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is confidential, subject to copyright or constitutes a trade secret. If you are not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any dissemination, copying or distribution of this message, or files associated with this message, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. Messages sent to and from us may be monitored. Internet communications cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. Therefore, we do not accept responsibility for any errors or omissions that are present in this message, or any attachment, that have arisen as a result of e-mail transmission. If verification is required, please request a hard-copy version. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. Alun Rowe Pentangle Internet Limited 2 Buttermarket Thame Oxfordshire OX9 3EW Tel: +44 8700 339905 Fax: +44 8700 339906 Please direct all support requests to mailto:it-supp...@pentangle.co.uk Pentangle Internet Limited is a limited company registered in England and Wales. Registered number: 3960918. Registered office: 1 Lauras Close, Great Staughton, Cambridgeshire PE19 5DP
Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?
No it¹s not confusion. Unfortunately one leads to the other. Open standards whilst highly beneficial in some fields eg Web Standards can also be highly uncompetitive in others eg Telephony. Telephony is all about the quality of the service you receive so the standard IS the product. Websites are about content so the standard is merely a conduit for the product. Preaching open standards is fine AS LONG as you understand the deep economic issues behind them On 04/08/2009 08:03, Brian Butterworth briant...@freeview.tv wrote: 2009/8/4 Alun Rowe alun.r...@pentangle.co.uk The problem with a 'free digital society' is that people need salaries. ah, the old confusion of gratis and libre. Ask the music/film industry what they think. I love the idea of utopia but we all know that unicorns don't exist, right? On 3 Aug 2009, at 20:14, Dave Crossland d...@lab6.com wrote: Hi, What about the case for a free digital society? Regards, Dave On 3 Aug 2009, 6:36 PM, Alun Rowe mailto:alun.r...@pentangle.co.uk alun.r...@pentangle.co.uk wrote: No doubt some palms will be crossed with silver (or equity). The business case for open standards has to be thought through ingreat depth before embracing it. Also Skypes network has been around for a longtime! On 3 Aug 2009, at 17:10, Dave Crossland mailto:d...@lab6.com d...@lab6.com wrote: Proprietary software and centtalised network services strike again... Regards, Dave ... Alun Rowe Pentangle Internet Limited 2 Buttermarket Thame Oxfordshire OX9 3EW Tel: +44 8700 339905 Fax: +44 8700 339906 Please direct all support requests to it-supp...@pentangle.co.uk mailto:it-supp...@pentangle.co.uk Pentangle Internet Limited is a limited company registered in England and Wales. Registered number: 3960918. Registered office: 1 Lauras Close, Great Staughton, Cambridgeshire PE19 5DP Discuss mailing list mailto:disc...@lists.autonomo.us disc...@lists.autonomo.us http://lists.autonomo.us/mailman/list. http://lists.autonomo.us/mailman/list...This message (and any associated files) is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is confidential, subject to copyright or constitutes a trade secret. If you are not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any dissemination, copying or distribution of this message, or files associated with this message, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. Messages sent to and from us may be monitored. Internet communications cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. Therefore, we do not accept responsibility for any errors or omissions that are present in this message, or any attachment, that have arisen as a result of e-mail transmission. If verification is required, please request a hard-copy version. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. Alun Rowe Pentangle Internet Limited 2 Buttermarket Thame Oxfordshire OX9 3EW Tel: +44 8700 339905 Fax: +44 8700 339906 Please direct all support requests to it-supp...@pentangle.co.uk mailto:it-supp...@pentangle.co.uk Pentangle Internet Limited is a limited company registered in England and Wales. Registered number: 3960918. Registered office: 1 Lauras Close, Great Staughton, Cambridgeshire PE19 5DP Alun Rowe Pentangle Internet Limited 2 Buttermarket Thame Oxfordshire OX9 3EW Tel: +44 8700 339905 Fax: +44 8700 339906 Please direct all support requests to mailto:it-supp...@pentangle.co.uk Pentangle Internet Limited is a limited company registered in England and Wales. Registered number: 3960918. Registered office: 1 Lauras Close, Great Staughton, Cambridgeshire PE19 5DP
Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?
I used to work for the open source innovation arm of BT, during which time I wrote this blog post on the subject: http://philwhitehouse.blogspot.com/2008/06/how-to-make-money-from-open-source.html Your email brings to mind the joke where someone was asked for directions, and the response was You shouldn't start from here. Essentially open source is viable in some cases and less so in others - but it depends on many factors. Cheers, Phil On Tue, Aug 4, 2009 at 11:07 AM, Alun Rowe alun.r...@pentangle.co.ukwrote: Yes I have but it is fairly unique. How would you obtain funding for an idea which had no IP of it own? “Do you own the patent on this?” - er no it’s open source. “Can anyone arrive in the marketplace tomorrow and replicate what you do?” - er yes. Like I say I love the utopian model but I can’t see it happening for a long long time. Companies NEED to be able to maintain their own technology without simply passing it to their competitors on a plate. Anyway it’s no surprise people pay Red Hat for support. Mere users don’t stand a chance with anything Linux based. It’s far too geeky to use still. Alun On 04/08/2009 08:13, Dave Crossland d...@lab6.com wrote: Have you heard of Red Hat? On 4 Aug 2009, 7:02 AM, Alun Rowe alun.r...@pentangle.co.uk wrote: The problem with a 'free digital society' is that people need salaries. Ask the music/film industry what they think. I love the idea of utopia but we all know that unicorns don't exist, right? On 3 Aug 2009, at 20:14, Dave Crossland d...@lab6.com wrote: Hi, What about the case fo... Alun Rowe Pentangle Internet Limited 2 Buttermarket Thame Oxfordshire OX9 3EW Tel: +44 8700 33... This message (and any associated files) is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is confidential, subject to copyright or constitutes a trade secret. If you are not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any dissemination, copying or distribution of this message, or files associated with this message, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. Messages sent to and from us may be monitored. Internet communications cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. Therefore, we do not accept responsibility for any errors or omissions that are present in this message, or any attachment, that have arisen as a result of e-mail transmission. If verification is required, please request a hard-copy version. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. *Alun Rowe* *Pentangle Internet Limited* 2 Buttermarket Thame Oxfordshire OX9 3EW Tel: +44 8700 339905 Fax: +44 8700 339906 *Please direct all support requests to **it-supp...@pentangle.co.uk*it-supp...@pentangle.co.uk Pentangle Internet Limited is a limited company registered in England and Wales. Registered number: 3960918. Registered office: 1 Lauras Close, Great Staughton, Cambridgeshire PE19 5DP -- http://philwhitehouse.blogspot.com
Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?
2009/8/4 Alun Rowe alun.r...@pentangle.co.uk ... Mere users don’t stand a chance with anything Linux based. It’s far too geeky to use still. Your final pronouncement is interesting. How can you justify it? Alun On 04/08/2009 08:13, Dave Crossland d...@lab6.com wrote: Have you heard of Red Hat? On 4 Aug 2009, 7:02 AM, Alun Rowe alun.r...@pentangle.co.uk wrote: The problem with a 'free digital society' is that people need salaries. Ask the music/film industry what they think. I love the idea of utopia but we all know that unicorns don't exist, right? On 3 Aug 2009, at 20:14, Dave Crossland d...@lab6.com wrote: Hi, What about the case fo... Alun Rowe Pentangle Internet Limited 2 Buttermarket Thame Oxfordshire OX9 3EW Tel: +44 8700 33... This message (and any associated files) is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is confidential, subject to copyright or constitutes a trade secret. If you are not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any dissemination, copying or distribution of this message, or files associated with this message, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. Messages sent to and from us may be monitored. Internet communications cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. Therefore, we do not accept responsibility for any errors or omissions that are present in this message, or any attachment, that have arisen as a result of e-mail transmission. If verification is required, please request a hard-copy version. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. *Alun Rowe* *Pentangle Internet Limited* 2 Buttermarket Thame Oxfordshire OX9 3EW Tel: +44 8700 339905 Fax: +44 8700 339906 *Please direct all support requests to **it-supp...@pentangle.co.uk*it-supp...@pentangle.co.uk Pentangle Internet Limited is a limited company registered in England and Wales. Registered number: 3960918. Registered office: 1 Lauras Close, Great Staughton, Cambridgeshire PE19 5DP -- Brian Butterworth follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover advice, since 2002
Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?
Mere users don’t stand a chance with anything Linux based. It’s far too geeky to use still. Well, obviously. You don't see any mere users using Android based phones, Tivos, routers, etc, etc. do you?
Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?
2009/8/4 Alex Mace a...@hollytree.co.uk Mere users don’t stand a chance with anything Linux based. It’s far too geeky to use still. Well, obviously. You don't see any mere users using Android based phones, Tivos, routers, etc, etc. do you? Or all those millions of LAMP websites out there... -- Brian Butterworth follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover advice, since 2002
Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?
Alex Mace wrote: Mere users don’t stand a chance with anything Linux based. It’s far too geeky to use still. Well, obviously. You don't see any mere users using Android based phones, Tivos, routers, etc, etc. do you? My 50+ year old parents (decidedly non-geeky) parents don't seem have issues with their Kubuntu machine they use for web, email ksirtet (tetris). My 90+ year old Grandmother (also non-geeky) also doesn't seem to have issues with Debian + Kmail. If these aren't mere users who are? :) Tim - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?
My 50+ year old parents (decidedly non-geeky) parents don't seem have issues with their Kubuntu machine they use for web, email ksirtet (tetris). My 90+ year old Grandmother (also non-geeky) also doesn't seem to have issues with Debian + Kmail. Did they set those machines up all by themselves or did you help them a little bit? Do they call you if they need a bit of help? Having a helpful geek in the family can go a long way to easing the fear of using systems that other mere users (yuck) might struggle with. Basically I'm accusing you of being their tech support ;) Deirdre Harvey :: Web Producer :: BBC Newsline :: Newsroom :: BBC Broadcasting House :: Ormeau Avenue :: Belfast BT2 8HQ :: ph. 02890 338264 http://bbc.co.uk/newsline -Original Message- From: owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk [mailto:owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk] On Behalf Of Tim Dobson Sent: 04 August 2009 12:09 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out? Alex Mace wrote: Mere users don't stand a chance with anything Linux based. It's far too geeky to use still. Well, obviously. You don't see any mere users using Android based phones, Tivos, routers, etc, etc. do you? If these aren't mere users who are? :) Tim - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?
Ask a genuine user to install some software on it. I know it¹s a LOT better than it used to be but my dad still couldn¹t do it. Alun On 04/08/2009 11:31, Brian Butterworth briant...@freeview.tv wrote: 2009/8/4 Alun Rowe alun.r...@pentangle.co.uk ... Mere users don¹t stand a chance with anything Linux based. It¹s far too geeky to use still. Your final pronouncement is interesting. How can you justify it? Alun On 04/08/2009 08:13, Dave Crossland d...@lab6.com http://d...@lab6.com wrote: Have you heard of Red Hat? On 4 Aug 2009, 7:02 AM, Alun Rowe alun.r...@pentangle.co.uk http://alun.r...@pentangle.co.uk wrote: The problem with a 'free digital society' is that people need salaries. Ask the music/film industry what they think. I love the idea of utopia but we all know that unicorns don't exist, right? On 3 Aug 2009, at 20:14, Dave Crossland d...@lab6.com http://d...@lab6.com wrote: Hi, What about the case fo... Alun Rowe Pentangle Internet Limited 2 Buttermarket Thame Oxfordshire OX9 3EW Tel: +44 8700 33... This message (and any associated files) is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is confidential, subject to copyright or constitutes a trade secret. If you are not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any dissemination, copying or distribution of this message, or files associated with this message, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. Messages sent to and from us may be monitored. Internet communications cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. Therefore, we do not accept responsibility for any errors or omissions that are present in this message, or any attachment, that have arisen as a result of e-mail transmission. If verification is required, please request a hard-copy version. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. Alun Rowe Pentangle Internet Limited 2 Buttermarket Thame Oxfordshire OX9 3EW Tel: +44 8700 339905 Fax: +44 8700 339906 Please direct all support requests to it-supp...@pentangle.co.uk mailto:it-supp...@pentangle.co.uk Pentangle Internet Limited is a limited company registered in England and Wales. Registered number: 3960918. Registered office: 1 Lauras Close, Great Staughton, Cambridgeshire PE19 5DP Alun Rowe Pentangle Internet Limited 2 Buttermarket Thame Oxfordshire OX9 3EW Tel: +44 8700 339905 Fax: +44 8700 339906 Please direct all support requests to mailto:it-supp...@pentangle.co.uk Pentangle Internet Limited is a limited company registered in England and Wales. Registered number: 3960918. Registered office: 1 Lauras Close, Great Staughton, Cambridgeshire PE19 5DP
RE: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?
Out of interest, did you get him to try using a tar.gz file or a deb/rpm? I ask as tar.gz is a pain in the backside. This cannot be denied. But then I use Linux on all my home PCs and almost never use them for software installation. For my mind, using DEBs or RPMs from central repositories is a FAR FAR FAR superior way of managing your software than the Windows method of downloading random files from random sites, each of which use a random installation routine! This is especially true with upgrades. I can upgrade my entire Ubuntu box with complete ease. However it requires a user to be told this is what you do with software. But lets be honest - this is not a Linux thing. When I first tried to installed software on OS-X, I got completely thrown and that's probably the easiest installation method going! It wasn't that it was hard - just that no one told me what to do. So software companies either do everything like Windows because everyone knows what to do, or they do something which may be better but which people have to learn something new. From: owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk [mailto:owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk] On Behalf Of Alun Rowe Sent: 04 August 2009 12:36 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out? Ask a genuine user to install some software on it. I know it's a LOT better than it used to be but my dad still couldn't do it. Alun On 04/08/2009 11:31, Brian Butterworth briant...@freeview.tv wrote: 2009/8/4 Alun Rowe alun.r...@pentangle.co.uk ... Mere users don't stand a chance with anything Linux based. It's far too geeky to use still. Your final pronouncement is interesting. How can you justify it? Alun On 04/08/2009 08:13, Dave Crossland d...@lab6.com http://d...@lab6.com wrote: Have you heard of Red Hat? On 4 Aug 2009, 7:02 AM, Alun Rowe alun.r...@pentangle.co.uk http://alun.r...@pentangle.co.uk wrote: The problem with a 'free digital society' is that people need salaries. Ask the music/film industry what they think. I love the idea of utopia but we all know that unicorns don't exist, right? On 3 Aug 2009, at 20:14, Dave Crossland d...@lab6.com http://d...@lab6.com wrote: Hi, What about the case fo... Alun Rowe Pentangle Internet Limited 2 Buttermarket Thame Oxfordshire OX9 3EW Tel: +44 8700 33... This message (and any associated files) is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is confidential, subject to copyright or constitutes a trade secret. If you are not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any dissemination, copying or distribution of this message, or files associated with this message, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. Messages sent to and from us may be monitored. Internet communications cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. Therefore, we do not accept responsibility for any errors or omissions that are present in this message, or any attachment, that have arisen as a result of e-mail transmission. If verification is required, please request a hard-copy version. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. Alun Rowe Pentangle Internet Limited 2 Buttermarket Thame Oxfordshire OX9 3EW Tel: +44 8700 339905 Fax: +44 8700 339906
Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?
My father (who I refuse to give any tech support to) failed to install windows XP well enough to get online or have it usable for several years of attempting it several times. Every time he buys a new PC with windows pre-installed. He's been using windows heavily for 10yrs. What I'm saying is that the average user sometimes finds almost all OSes difficult if not impossible to install without some sort of tech support. On the other hand, my 6yr old son fully installed and uses Fedora 11 and is on the internet. I just gave him the DVD and told him how to get the laptop to boot from DVD. OK, I did have to install some non-default packages a few days after for him but none that were crucial. It all depends on the end user. On Tue, 2009-08-04 at 12:35 +0100, Alun Rowe wrote: Ask a genuine user to install some software on it. I know it’s a LOT better than it used to be but my dad still couldn’t do it. Alun On 04/08/2009 11:31, Brian Butterworth briant...@freeview.tv wrote: 2009/8/4 Alun Rowe alun.r...@pentangle.co.uk ... Mere users don’t stand a chance with anything Linux based. It’s far too geeky to use still. Your final pronouncement is interesting. How can you justify it? Alun On 04/08/2009 08:13, Dave Crossland d...@lab6.com http://d...@lab6.com wrote: Have you heard of Red Hat? On 4 Aug 2009, 7:02 AM, Alun Rowe alun.r...@pentangle.co.uk http://alun.r...@pentangle.co.uk wrote: The problem with a 'free digital society' is that people need salaries. Ask the music/film industry what they think. I love the idea of utopia but we all know that unicorns don't exist, right? On 3 Aug 2009, at 20:14, Dave Crossland d...@lab6.com http://d...@lab6.com wrote: Hi, What about the case fo... Alun Rowe Pentangle Internet Limited 2 Buttermarket Thame Oxfordshire OX9 3EW Tel: +44 8700 33... This message (and any associated files) is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is confidential, subject to copyright or constitutes a trade secret. If you are not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any dissemination, copying or distribution of this message, or files associated with this message, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. Messages sent to and from us may be monitored. Internet communications cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted,
Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?
Or they provide clear instruction on how to do it WITHOUT having to resort to Google... A large number of issues come from the wide breadth of software and authors, all doing things in their own ways... The Œopenness¹ here is what causes the problem as there don¹t appear to be any accepted design patterns to follow etc. Don¹t get me wrong I¹m a geek and Œmostly¹ can do what I need to on Ubuntu but honestly at the moment I wouldn¹t put Linux on a Œusers¹ desktop. Also, it¹d be nice if the software was seen my a UI designer before launch. Most UI¹s on Linux software are very sucky at the moment! On 04/08/2009 12:46, Andrew Bowden andrew.bow...@bbc.co.uk wrote: Out of interest, did you get him to try using a tar.gz file or a deb/rpm? I ask as tar.gz is a pain in the backside. This cannot be denied. But then I use Linux on all my home PCs and almost never use them for software installation. For my mind, using DEBs or RPMs from central repositories is a FAR FAR FAR superior way of managing your software than the Windows method of downloading random files from random sites, each of which use a random installation routine! This is especially true with upgrades. I can upgrade my entire Ubuntu box with complete ease. However it requires a user to be told this is what you do with software. But lets be honest - this is not a Linux thing. When I first tried to installed software on OS-X, I got completely thrown and that's probably the easiest installation method going! It wasn't that it was hard - just that no one told me what to do. So software companies either do everything like Windows because everyone knows what to do, or they do something which may be better but which people have to learn something new. From: owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk [mailto:owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk] On Behalf Of Alun Rowe Sent: 04 August 2009 12:36 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out? Ask a genuine user to install some software on it. I know it¹s a LOT better than it used to be but my dad still couldn¹t do it. Alun On 04/08/2009 11:31, Brian Butterworth briant...@freeview.tv wrote: 2009/8/4 Alun Rowe alun.r...@pentangle.co.uk ... Mere users don¹t stand a chance with anything Linux based. It¹s far too geeky to use still. Your final pronouncement is interesting. How can you justify it? Alun On 04/08/2009 08:13, Dave Crossland d...@lab6.com http://d...@lab6.com wrote: Have you heard of Red Hat? On 4 Aug 2009, 7:02 AM, Alun Rowe alun.r...@pentangle.co.uk http://alun.r...@pentangle.co.uk wrote: The problem with a 'free digital society' is that people need salaries. Ask the music/film industry what they think. I love the idea of utopia but we all know that unicorns don't exist, right? On 3 Aug 2009, at 20:14, Dave Crossland d...@lab6.com http://d...@lab6.com wrote: Hi, What about the case fo... Alun Rowe Pentangle Internet Limited 2 Buttermarket Thame Oxfordshire OX9 3EW Tel: +44 8700 33... This message (and any associated files) is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is confidential, subject to copyright or constitutes a trade secret. If you are not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any dissemination, copying or distribution of this message, or files associated with this message, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. Messages sent to and from us may be monitored. Internet communications cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. Therefore, we do not accept responsibility for any errors or omissions that are present in this message, or any attachment, that have arisen as a result of e-mail transmission. If verification is required, please request a hard-copy version. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. Alun Rowe Pentangle Internet Limited 2 Buttermarket Thame Oxfordshire OX9 3EW Tel: +44 8700 339905 Fax: +44 8700 339906 Please direct all support requests to it-supp...@pentangle.co.uk mailto:it-supp...@pentangle.co.uk Pentangle Internet Limited is a limited company registered in England and Wales. Registered number: 3960918. Registered office: 1 Lauras Close, Great Staughton, Cambridgeshire PE19 5DP Alun Rowe Pentangle Internet Limited 2 Buttermarket Thame Oxfordshire OX9 3EW Tel: +44 8700 339905 Fax: +44 8700 339906 Please direct all support requests to it-supp...@pentangle.co.uk mailto:it
RE: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?
Most Linux software is now available in DEB or RPM format. There's some smaller packages that aren't, and commercial companies have a habit of not fitting in. But frankly most modern distros take an RPM and DEB and know exactly what to do with it so that the user need do little more than click on the file. As for UI it depends. GNOME have some very good UI rules. But then I recently took one look at the new KDE4 version of Amarok and fled for the hills. From: owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk [mailto:owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk] On Behalf Of Alun Rowe Sent: 04 August 2009 12:55 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out? Or they provide clear instruction on how to do it WITHOUT having to resort to Google... A large number of issues come from the wide breadth of software and authors, all doing things in their own ways... The 'openness' here is what causes the problem as there don't appear to be any accepted design patterns to follow etc. Don't get me wrong I'm a geek and 'mostly' can do what I need to on Ubuntu but honestly at the moment I wouldn't put Linux on a 'users' desktop. Also, it'd be nice if the software was seen my a UI designer before launch. Most UI's on Linux software are very sucky at the moment! On 04/08/2009 12:46, Andrew Bowden andrew.bow...@bbc.co.uk wrote: Out of interest, did you get him to try using a tar.gz file or a deb/rpm? I ask as tar.gz is a pain in the backside. This cannot be denied. But then I use Linux on all my home PCs and almost never use them for software installation. For my mind, using DEBs or RPMs from central repositories is a FAR FAR FAR superior way of managing your software than the Windows method of downloading random files from random sites, each of which use a random installation routine! This is especially true with upgrades. I can upgrade my entire Ubuntu box with complete ease. However it requires a user to be told this is what you do with software. But lets be honest - this is not a Linux thing. When I first tried to installed software on OS-X, I got completely thrown and that's probably the easiest installation method going! It wasn't that it was hard - just that no one told me what to do. So software companies either do everything like Windows because everyone knows what to do, or they do something which may be better but which people have to learn something new. From: owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk [mailto:owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk] On Behalf Of Alun Rowe Sent: 04 August 2009 12:36 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out? Ask a genuine user to install some software on it. I know it's a LOT better than it used to be but my dad still couldn't do it. Alun On 04/08/2009 11:31, Brian Butterworth briant...@freeview.tv wrote: 2009/8/4 Alun Rowe alun.r...@pentangle.co.uk ... Mere users don't stand a chance with anything Linux based. It's far too geeky to use still. Your final pronouncement is interesting. How can you justify it? Alun On 04/08/2009 08:13, Dave Crossland d...@lab6.com http://d...@lab6.com wrote: Have you heard of Red Hat? On 4 Aug 2009, 7:02 AM, Alun Rowe alun.r...@pentangle.co.uk http://alun.r...@pentangle.co.uk wrote: The problem with a 'free digital society' is that people need salaries
Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?
Interesting comment about Telephony not based on open standards. How do all the different telephony companies manage to get their networks to interact without having communication protocols based on agreed international standards?[1] How do you expect their customers to use their services if they can't communicate between different company networks. Open Standards lead to increased econonmic competitiveness: Arguably the largest global economic factor of the last 20 years is the Internet, which is built upon open standards published by the IETF as RFCs*. Without these documents the explosion in Internet based commerce we've seen would have been improbable. Have you heard of the silo'd services provided by Compuserve, AOL, et al?[2] Their business model failed as soon as the TCP/IP open standards underlying the Internet were accepted by the wider community. So, the deep economic implications of open standards leads to greater flow of ideas, money and commerce; benefiting businesses and consumers. C [1] http://www.itu.int [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AOL * OK, RFCs are technically recommendations rather than standards, but the almost universal acceptance of them makes them defacto open standards. -Original Message- From: Alun Rowe alun.r...@pentangle.co.uk Reply-to: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out? Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2009 11:12:31 +0100 No it’s not confusion. Unfortunately one leads to the other. Open standards whilst highly beneficial in some fields eg Web Standards can also be highly uncompetitive in others eg Telephony. Telephony is all about the quality of the service you receive so the standard IS the product. Websites are about content so the standard is merely a conduit for the product. Preaching open standards is fine AS LONG as you understand the deep economic issues behind them On 04/08/2009 08:03, Brian Butterworth briant...@freeview.tv wrote: 2009/8/4 Alun Rowe alun.r...@pentangle.co.uk The problem with a 'free digital society' is that people need salaries. ah, the old confusion of gratis and libre. Ask the music/film industry what they think. I love the idea of utopia but we all know that unicorns don't exist, right? On 3 Aug 2009, at 20:14, Dave Crossland d...@lab6.com wrote: Hi, What about the case for a free digital society? Regards, Dave On 3 Aug 2009, 6:36 PM, Alun Rowe mailto:alun.r...@pentangle.co.uk alun.r...@pentangle.co.uk wrote: No doubt some palms will be crossed with silver (or equity). The business case for open standards has to be thought through ingreat depth before embracing it. Also Skypes network has been around for a longtime! On 3 Aug 2009, at 17:10, Dave Crossland mailto:d...@lab6.com d...@lab6.com wrote: Proprietary software and centtalised network services strike again... Regards, Dave ... - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?
On 4 Aug 2009, at 12:23, Deirdre Harvey wrote: My 90+ year old Grandmother (also non-geeky) also doesn't seem to have issues with Debian + Kmail. Did they set those machines up all by themselves or did you help them a little bit? Do they call you if they need a bit of help? Having a helpful geek in the family can go a long way to easing the fear of using systems that other mere users (yuck) might struggle with. I've acted as Windows and MacOS tech support for enough relatives over the years to think that in many cases, getting them to use a decent Linux distribution would be preferable! Something like Ubuntu gives users a standard way of installing applications and keeping them up-to- date, doesn't require regular sweeping for viruses and spyware (yet!) and is easy to manage remotely - what more could you ask for? Having said that, the BBC taught my grandmother (85+) to use Windows*, and she seems to be coping just fine. S *if I don't get responses to this email complaining that the BBC shouldn't be teaching people to use proprietary software, I will be sincerely disappointed. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?
On 4 Aug 2009, at 12:23, Deirdre Harvey wrote: My 90+ year old Grandmother (also non-geeky) also doesn't seem to have issues with Debian + Kmail. Did they set those machines up all by themselves or did you help them a little bit? Do they call you if they need a bit of help? Having a helpful geek in the family can go a long way to easing the fear of using systems that other mere users (yuck) might struggle with. I've acted as Windows and MacOS tech support for enough relatives over the years to think that in many cases, getting them to use a decent Linux distribution would be preferable! Something like Ubuntu gives users a standard way of installing applications and keeping them up-to- date, doesn't require regular sweeping for viruses and spyware (yet!) and is easy to manage remotely - what more could you ask for? Having said that, the BBC taught my grandmother (85+) to use Windows*, and she seems to be coping just fine. S * if I don't get responses to this email complaining that the BBC shouldn't be teaching people to use proprietary software, I will be - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?
Maybe you should be more specific so we know what to picket? On 4 Aug 2009, 6:40 PM, Stephen Jolly st...@jollys.org wrote: On 4 Aug 2009, at 12:23, Deirdre Harvey wrote: My 90+ year old Grandmother (also non-geeky) al... I've acted as Windows and MacOS tech support for enough relatives over the years to think that in many cases, getting them to use a decent Linux distribution would be preferable! Something like Ubuntu gives users a standard way of installing applications and keeping them up-to-date, doesn't require regular sweeping for viruses and spyware (yet!) and is easy to manage remotely - what more could you ask for? Having said that, the BBC taught my grandmother (85+) to use Windows*, and she seems to be coping just fine. S *if I don't get responses to this email complaining that the BBC shouldn't be teaching people to use proprietary software, I will be sincerely disappointed. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstag...
Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?
Right. I think that sums it up. If I tell my Mum that, she'll look at me as though I'm from Mars. To be honest, as a non-Linux user, but experienced computer user, I have no idea what the hell DEB or RPM are. If that's the best sell you can do, it just demonstrates that desktop Linux still isn't ready for the day to day computer user. Cheers, Rich. On Tue, Aug 4, 2009 at 1:03 PM, Andrew Bowdenandrew.bow...@bbc.co.uk wrote: Most Linux software is now available in DEB or RPM format. There's some smaller packages that aren't, and commercial companies have a habit of not fitting in. But frankly most modern distros take an RPM and DEB and know exactly what to do with it so that the user need do little more than click on the file. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?
I'm about as far from Linux on the desktop as you can get, but I think that's a little unfair. It's no different from talking about .pkg or .msi files on Mac OS X or Windows. Your mum might not be interested in the specifics but this is technical list and so at times people are likely to talk about things at a greater level of detail. Cheers Jonathan On 4 Aug 2009, at 20:40, Richard Lockwood richard.lockw...@gmail.com wrote: Right. I think that sums it up. If I tell my Mum that, she'll look at me as though I'm from Mars. To be honest, as a non-Linux user, but experienced computer user, I have no idea what the hell DEB or RPM are. If that's the best sell you can do, it just demonstrates that desktop Linux still isn't ready for the day to day computer user. Cheers, Rich. On Tue, Aug 4, 2009 at 1:03 PM, Andrew Bowdenandrew.bow...@bbc.co.uk wrote: Most Linux software is now available in DEB or RPM format. There's some smaller packages that aren't, and commercial companies have a habit of not fitting in. But frankly most modern distros take an RPM and DEB and know exactly what to do with it so that the user need do little more than click on the file. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html . Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?
On Tue, Aug 4, 2009 at 8:40 PM, Richard Lockwoodrichard.lockw...@gmail.com wrote: Right. I think that sums it up. If I tell my Mum that, she'll look at me as though I'm from Mars. To be honest, as a non-Linux user, but experienced computer user, I have no idea what the hell DEB or RPM are. If that's the best sell you can do, it just demonstrates that desktop Linux still isn't ready for the day to day computer user. Cheers, Rich. On Tue, Aug 4, 2009 at 1:03 PM, Andrew Bowdenandrew.bow...@bbc.co.uk wrote: Most Linux software is now available in DEB or RPM format. There's some smaller packages that aren't, and commercial companies have a habit of not fitting in. But frankly most modern distros take an RPM and DEB and know exactly what to do with it so that the user need do little more than click on the file. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ DEB/RPM are the file extensions used for 'installers', run one and it will (On most distributions now) bring up an installer which will install said software in a couple of clicks. However the way most people should install software is to use the software available through the repository system- an App store if you like- of your chosen distribution, which at least on Ubuntu is partnered with a set of tools that make it a doddle to install almost anything, as the Ubuntu/Debian repositories are sufficiently large enough to cover most free software available. The add/remove program installer make it about as easy as you can to install the most common software that end users want. The issue here is that they work in a different way to the less structured windows system, where you can grab $randomsoftware.exe and it will probably install. The issue is packaging commercial software for linux systems, as everyone seems to do it there own way, often not tying into the system very well, or causing problems at update time. This happens to some extent on other systems, I have been using OSX for a few days now, and installing the Adobe suite was not intuitive as it should have been, it works outside of the 'drag the icon to the applications folder' way that is the normal method. Yes, there are still usability issues that need work, and these are being worked on constantly to improve, we only need to look back a few years, I'm talking 2004/5 even, where there was a good chance you wouldn't be able to get a graphical desktop on a laptop, and a lot of functionality wasn't there (Wireless, 3D acceleration, Device support). What Linux really needs to succeed is a standout reason to switch, at the moment it requires discussion and persuasion, If someone asks you 'Why should I use this Ubuntu/Mandriva/Fedora thing, there isn't the 5 second none sentence soundbite as a reason. Matt. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?
Deirdre Harvey wrote: My 50+ year old parents (decidedly non-geeky) parents don't seem have issues with their Kubuntu machine they use for web, email ksirtet (tetris). My 90+ year old Grandmother (also non-geeky) also doesn't seem to have issues with Debian + Kmail. Did they set those machines up all by themselves or did you help them a little bit? Do they call you if they need a bit of help? Yup, I set them up, pointed them in the right direction however I'm not really sure this is *that* relevant. We used to, a long while ago, be an all windows household, and I was giving them the same level of support then. In fact, I was giving them more because about 6 months in, despite it having bulletproof windows security stuff, it was still running considerably more slowly - something they were complaining about. Having a helpful geek in the family can go a long way to easing the fear of using systems that other mere users (yuck) might struggle with. Well sure. This is definitely true. For what it's worth my Uncle is an old school GNU/Linux hacker, my Brother-in-law is an ex-army GNU/Linux sysadmin (who spurred me into all this!) and so I guess it has produced an encouraging environment for users in my close family to move over. For a power user such as my brother (who knows what he's doing but needs help when it all goes wrong) then it was really a matter of evaluating what he uses his computer for and installing the relevant software. Basically I'm accusing you of being their tech support ;) So absolutely, I am tech support when needed. :) Tech support also includes basic training - ie howto use a file manager to organise documents you have created - something I still haven't managed to communicate the concept of yet to my mother. I don't know, I do feel that my work load is considerably reduced now they are on ubuntu, partly because I have some idea of where to start troubleshooting issues without just telling them to reboot. :) Anyway, that's a little bit of my story. Tim - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?
2009/8/4 Alun Rowe alun.r...@pentangle.co.uk: Preaching open standards is fine AS LONG as you understand the deep economic issues behind them Why should economics trump freedom? Would you scrap free elections if it was better for the economy? China is proving that free elections are not needed for a efficient capitalist market system. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?
2009/8/4 Alun Rowe alun.r...@pentangle.co.uk: Yes I have but it is fairly unique. RHAT is the only free software company in the SP500, but there are several direct competitors and many smaller and very different free software companies. How would you obtain funding for an idea which had no IP of it own? Red Hat started. How did this happen? There are hundreds of small companies that only supply free software. How did they start? I know, and, clearly, you don't, but since you have seen the evidence that such companies exist, I find your position quite strange; rather than saying, I don't understand the economics you say The economics cannot possibly work. Like I say I love the utopian model but I can’t see it happening for a long long time. Companies NEED to be able to maintain their own technology without simply passing it to their competitors on a plate. Red Hat has been doing very well for a long long time. This isn't a utopian model. It is an ethical position with a proven business model. Anyway it’s no surprise people pay Red Hat for support. Mere users don’t stand a chance with anything Linux based. It’s far too geeky to use still. Try telling that to the millions of school kids whose schools provide them with GNU/Linux desktops. As a percentage of the whole software industry, how much revenue is generated by the casual home users I assume you are referring to? - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?
[mailto:owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk] *On Behalf Of *Alun Rowe *Sent:* 04 August 2009 12:36 *To:* backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk *Subject:* Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out? Ask a genuine user to install some software on it. I know it’s a LOT better than it used to be but my dad still couldn’t do it. You should take a look at http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntucat/software-installation-in-linux-is-difficult/ It's a great demonstration of precisely how difficult software installation on linux can be. Do you think this is beyond your dad's grasp? :) Tim - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?
No doubt some palms will be crossed with silver (or equity). The business case for open standards has to be thought through ingreat depth before embracing it. Also Skypes network has been around for a longtime! On 3 Aug 2009, at 17:10, Dave Crossland d...@lab6.com wrote: Proprietary software and centtalised network services strike again... Regards, Dave -- Forwarded message -- From: Nathan Willis nwil...@glyphography.com Date: 3 Aug 2009, 4:05 PM Subject: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out? To: autonomo.us discussion mailing list disc...@lists.autonomo.us Seems like this would be a good opportunity to discuss the free alternatives: http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/if-skype-goes-who-would-fill-gap-106880 Executive summary: eBay is in an acrimonius patent lawsuit with a company called Joltid that owns a patent on something used by Skype; Joltid is claiming that eBay violated their license and has terminated it, a situation that if upheld by the court would force them to deactivate Skype. Highly doubtful that that will come to pass, but I suppose you never know. Nate -- nathan.p.willis nwil...@glyphography.com aim/ym/gtalk:n8willis flickr.com/photos/willis Alun Rowe Pentangle Internet Limited 2 Buttermarket Thame Oxfordshire OX9 3EW Tel: +44 8700 339905 Fax: +44 8700 339906 Please direct all support requests to mailto:it-supp...@pentangle.co.uk Pentangle Internet Limited is a limited company registered in England and Wales. Registered number: 3960918. Registered office: 1 Lauras Close, Great Staughton, Cambridgeshire PE19 5DP Discuss mailing list disc...@lists.autonomo.us http://lists.autonomo.us/mailman/listinfo/discuss This message (and any associated files) is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is confidential, subject to copyright or constitutes a trade secret. If you are not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any dissemination, copying or distribution of this message, or files associated with this message, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. Messages sent to and from us may be monitored. Internet communications cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error- free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. Therefore, we do not accept responsibility for any errors or omissions that are present in this message, or any attachment, that have arisen as a result of e-mail transmission. If verification is required, please request a hard-copy version. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company.
Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?
Don't worry about Dave, he's just trolling again. Cheers, Rich. On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 6:31 PM, Alun Rowealun.r...@pentangle.co.uk wrote: No doubt some palms will be crossed with silver (or equity). The business case for open standards has to be thought through ingreat depth before embracing it. Also Skypes network has been around for a longtime! On 3 Aug 2009, at 17:10, Dave Crossland d...@lab6.com wrote: Proprietary software and centtalised network services strike again... Regards, Dave -- Forwarded message -- From: Nathan Willis nwil...@glyphography.com Date: 3 Aug 2009, 4:05 PM Subject: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out? To: autonomo.us discussion mailing list disc...@lists.autonomo.us Seems like this would be a good opportunity to discuss the free alternatives: http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/if-skype-goes-who-would-fill-gap-106880 Executive summary: eBay is in an acrimonius patent lawsuit with a company called Joltid that owns a patent on something used by Skype; Joltid is claiming that eBay violated their license and has terminated it, a situation that if upheld by the court would force them to deactivate Skype. Highly doubtful that that will come to pass, but I suppose you never know. Nate -- nathan.p.willis nwil...@glyphography.com aim/ym/gtalk:n8willis flickr.com/photos/willis Alun Rowe Pentangle Internet Limited 2 Buttermarket Thame Oxfordshire OX9 3EW Tel: +44 8700 339905 Fax: +44 8700 339906 Please direct all support requests to it-supp...@pentangle.co.uk Pentangle Internet Limited is a limited company registered in England and Wales. Registered number: 3960918. Registered office: 1 Lauras Close, Great Staughton, Cambridgeshire PE19 5DP Discuss mailing list disc...@lists.autonomo.us http://lists.autonomo.us/mailman/listinfo/discuss This message (and any associated files) is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is confidential, subject to copyright or constitutes a trade secret. If you are not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any dissemination, copying or distribution of this message, or files associated with this message, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. Messages sent to and from us may be monitored. Internet communications cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. Therefore, we do not accept responsibility for any errors or omissions that are present in this message, or any attachment, that have arisen as a result of e-mail transmission. If verification is required, please request a hard-copy version. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?
Hi, What about the case for a free digital society? Regards, Dave On 3 Aug 2009, 6:36 PM, Alun Rowe alun.r...@pentangle.co.uk wrote: No doubt some palms will be crossed with silver (or equity). The business case for open standards has to be thought through ingreat depth before embracing it. Also Skypes network has been around for a longtime! On 3 Aug 2009, at 17:10, Dave Crossland d...@lab6.com wrote: Proprietary software and centtalised network services strike again... Regards, Dave ... *Alun Rowe* *Pentangle Internet Limited* 2 Buttermarket Thame Oxfordshire OX9 3EW Tel: +44 8700 339905 Fax: +44 8700 339906 *Please direct all support requests to **it-supp...@pentangle.co.uk*it-supp...@pentangle.co.uk Pentangle Internet Limited is a limited company registered in England and Wales. Registered number: 3960918. Registered office: 1 Lauras Close, Great Staughton, Cambridgeshire PE19 5DP Discuss mailing list disc...@lists.autonomo.us http://lists.autonomo.us/mailman/list... This message (and any associated files) is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is confidential, subject to copyright or constitutes a trade secret. If you are not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any dissemination, copying or distribution of this message, or files associated with this message, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. Messages sent to and from us may be monitored. Internet communications cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. Therefore, we do not accept responsibility for any errors or omissions that are present in this message, or any attachment, that have arisen as a result of e-mail transmission. If verification is required, please request a hard-copy version. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company.
Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?
2009/8/3 Dave Crossland d...@lab6.com Hi, What about the case for a free digital society? Thanks to all the Appleheads we are now at the If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - for ever stage aren't we? Regards, Dave On 3 Aug 2009, 6:36 PM, Alun Rowe alun.r...@pentangle.co.uk wrote: No doubt some palms will be crossed with silver (or equity). The business case for open standards has to be thought through ingreat depth before embracing it. Also Skypes network has been around for a longtime! On 3 Aug 2009, at 17:10, Dave Crossland d...@lab6.com wrote: Proprietary software and centtalised network services strike again... Regards, Dave ... *Alun Rowe* *Pentangle Internet Limited* 2 Buttermarket Thame Oxfordshire OX9 3EW Tel: +44 8700 339905 Fax: +44 8700 339906 *Please direct all support requests to **it-supp...@pentangle.co.uk*it-supp...@pentangle.co.uk Pentangle Internet Limited is a limited company registered in England and Wales. Registered number: 3960918. Registered office: 1 Lauras Close, Great Staughton, Cambridgeshire PE19 5DP Discuss mailing list disc...@lists.autonomo.us http://lists.autonomo.us/mailman/list... This message (and any associated files) is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is confidential, subject to copyright or constitutes a trade secret. If you are not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any dissemination, copying or distribution of this message, or files associated with this message, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. Messages sent to and from us may be monitored. Internet communications cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. Therefore, we do not accept responsibility for any errors or omissions that are present in this message, or any attachment, that have arisen as a result of e-mail transmission. If verification is required, please request a hard-copy version. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. -- Brian Butterworth follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover advice, since 2002
Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?
I meant to post a link with my quote... http://www.betanews.com/article/The-Google-Voice-battle-What-is-Apple-afraid-of/1249327992 2009/8/3 Frank Wales fr...@limov.com Brian Butterworth wrote: Thanks to all the Appleheads we are now at the If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - for ever stage aren't we? Well, you have to imagine it, because you're not allowed to copy it. -- Frank Wales [fr...@limov.com] - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Brian Butterworth follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover advice, since 2002
