Re: [backstage] DAB rollout...

[Brian Butterworth]

More DAB news...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2008/apr/15/digitaltvradio.radio

"Moretta, who is general manager of broadcast at National Grid Wireless, led
the consortium that was beaten by Channel 4 last year in the contest to
oversee the second generation of national commercial digital radio stations.

Now he will be responsible for leading a joint industry push of DAB, which
has been blighted in recent months by station closures and uncertainty over
the Channel 4 Radio offering.

Moretta said he had become familiar with the issues facing digital radio
during the course of the DAB bid last year.

Brian Butterworth

RE: [backstage] DAB rollout...

[Andrew Bowden]

> The first para is the claim is that the high transmission costs are 
> currently making DAB unviable for commercial broadcasters. Many DAB 
> stations are earning a profit - including, I understand, Planet Rock
and 
> the Jazz - but nowhere near the kind of profit margins that commercial

> radio's used to. Fru needed to add to the profit-to-earnings ratio
that 
> Fru's shareholders expected at the time to stave off a takeover.
Removing 
> the DAB stations assisted her in this. Note that none have actually
closed 
> as yet. 

I believe theJazz has closed on DAB and has "officially" closed
according to its website.  Interestingly there is still a channel on the
Sky EPG called "theJazz".

Not the first time a channel has closed and remained on Sky - I spotted
the Virgin Radio Groove on Sky in March despite the station having
"closed" at the end of 2007.

PlanetRock on the other hand has a stay of execution until the end of
the month apparently because sale discussions were promising.  That
decision was taken before Global's bid was accepted of course - and
already Gcap have announced the prosponement of some of Fru's plans
(including the sale of its stake in DigitalOne and the sale of two of
the XFM stations)

We now return you to our normal programmes.


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Re: [backstage] DAB rollout...

[James Cridland]

On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 3:47 AM, Christopher Woods <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

Not trying to 'call you out' or anything, but I note in a January article on
> Grauniad (http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2008/jan/23/digitaltvradio.radio)
> that,
>
> *The number of digital radios is up nearly 50% on the 4.4m sold by the
> fourth quarter of 2006.*
>
> So which figure is the correct one for 2006 sales - 4.4m or 5.5m? (just
> curious). If I'm missing something, please point it out to me.
>

Just as I hoped that the "1 set sold" figure was clearly rubbish, so my
figures weren't researched. You're entirely correct to question them. Had I
bothered to research them, then my answer would have quoted the DRDB's
figures from a press release on 22 January 2008:

*More than 550,000 DAB radios were sold in December alone, up 22% on
December 2006. Best sellers were portable kitchen radios, MP3/DAB personals,
DAB hi-fi systems and, with a particularly strong result, DAB clock radios.
At one point in December, John Lewis reported selling six DAB digital radios
a minute (compared to five iPods a minute).  The DRDB (Digital Radio
Development Bureau) says figures from GfK put cumulative sales of DAB sets
at 6.45 million at the end of 2007, up from 4.4 million in 2006. This is in
line with the DRDB's forecast figure of two million set sales in 2007.*

So, there you go... perhaps the point is rather better, with a two million
jump.

Hazlitt's comments back in February were interesting too...
>
> "Hazlitt thinks the latter. "DAB is not an economically viable platform
> for us. Other radio operators may think differently and that is entirely
> their prerogative," she said today.
> "What we look at is consumers and they are saying it is not a big platform
> of choice for them. It does not provide an experience that is sufficiently
> better quality than what they have on FM."
>
> The first para is the claim is that the high transmission costs are
currently making DAB unviable for commercial broadcasters. Many DAB stations
are earning a profit - including, I understand, Planet Rock and the Jazz -
but nowhere near the kind of profit margins that commercial radio's used to.
Fru needed to add to the profit-to-earnings ratio that Fru's shareholders
expected at the time to stave off a takeover. Removing the DAB stations
assisted her in this. Note that none have actually closed as yet. Note, too,
that no other radio group has joined Fru in her talking-down of DAB; and
note that nobody has claimed that FM is dead now she's selling three XFMs.

Secondly, her claim on quality is absolutely correct. It's why DAB is sold
on choice, not quality.


The parents still don't have a digital radio, exactly because they know that
> the spec will change at some point in the future.
>

Well, I hope the parents didn't buy a Sky analogue receiver (useless after
ten years), an analogue mobile phone (now useless), a Rabbit phone, an early
OnDigital box, or an original PlayStation. Technology changes. I know it's
unusual for a radio, but it's kind of the way technology works these days.


>  What worries me is that digital radio is almost still in a state of flux;
> in the space of three years, an industry-changing redefinition of the DAB
> standard is released and it causes all sorts of headaches and potential
> problems for manufacturers and broadcasters.
>

On the contrary - digital radio is in no "state of flux" here in the UK. No
broadcasters in the UK have any plans to change to AAC+. The additional
codec is an addition, not a mandated replacement.

Note, too, that AAC+ does not mean better sound quality; it means more
efficient compression. It means commercial radio can significantly cut their
transmission costs; not significantly increase audio quality - don't forget,
you pay by the bitrate on commercial multiplexes. AAC+ will not immediately
mean better quality audio.

-- 
http://james.cridland.net/ | http://www.mediauk.com/

Media UK is a Not At All Bad Ltd production.
http://notatallbad.ltd.uk/legal_info/

Re: [backstage] DAB rollout...

[Brian Butterworth]

On 10/04/2008, Andrew Bowden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>
>  I presume they do the same for the Daily Service.   LW Sport gets
> > carried on Five Live Sports Extra, hence it's not a problem.
>
> From what I recall James Cridland telling me, the 5LSX service is created
> out of the general bitrate pool and leaches capacity from a number of
> services.
>
> I'm not a sport person, but I could have sworn Five Live Sports Extra had
> a permanent audio stream - sure I've heard promo loops on DAB.  Maybe it
> used to and it's changed since.
>

I thought so as well, because I suggested it should carry the audio from the
TV BBC News 24 when it was not broadcasting Extra Sport, but I was told that
the bandwidth was scavanged at the next bitrate change point (usually on the
hour or half, I understand).


Anyway, there's a page about bitrates on the BBC Radio site - apparently
> Sports Extra leeches of Radio 3 and sometimes Radio 4.
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/help/faq/dab_bitrates.shtml
>



-- 
Please email me back if you need any more help.

Brian Butterworth
http://www.ukfree.tv

RE: [backstage] DAB rollout...

[Andrew Bowden]

 



I presume they do the same for the Daily Service.   LW
Sport gets
carried on Five Live Sports Extra, hence it's not a
problem.

From what I recall James Cridland telling me, the 5LSX service
is created out of the general bitrate pool and leaches capacity from a
number of services.   

I'm not a sport person, but I could have sworn Five Live Sports Extra
had a permanent audio stream - sure I've heard promo loops on DAB.
Maybe it used to and it's changed since. 
 
Anyway, there's a page about bitrates on the BBC Radio site - apparently
Sports Extra leeches of Radio 3 and sometimes Radio 4.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/help/faq/dab_bitrates.shtml

Re: [backstage] DAB rollout...

[Brian Butterworth]

On 09/04/2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>  Yep, am waiting for freesat to launch as there is no digi signal on our
> transmitter until 2012. Though freesat won't give me radio reception ;-(
>
I suspect that you will find that there is already around 120 radio stations
on the 28.2 satellites for your delication and delight!  See the end of:

http://www.lyngsat.com/packages/skyuk_chno.html


>
> -Original Message-
> *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of *Brian Butterworth
> *Sent:* 09 April 2008 07:44
> *To:* backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
> *Subject:* Re: [backstage] DAB rollout...
>
>
>
>
>
> On 09/04/2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Bit of luck you didn't move to where I live There is not digital
> anything here (not TV or DAB).
>
>
>
> It's 99.9% likely that there is Freesat though!
>
>
>
> http://www.freesat.co.uk/home.php
>
>
>
> And it's always worth a try...
>
>
>
> http://www.ukfree.tv/transmitters.php
>
>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Rupert Watson
> Sent: 09 April 2008 05:35
> To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
> Subject: Re: [backstage] DAB rollout...
>
> I bought a Sony XDRS50B DAB radio last month so my wife could listen to
> BBC
> London despite moving to Watford. As a result she loves DAB and has
> converted a number of her friends.
>
> For her it wasn't about quality; it was about convenience.
>
>
> On 09/04/2008 03:47, "Christopher Woods" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > "And I'd want to switch to DAB why, exactly?"
>
> Rupert Watson
> www.root6.com
> +44 7787 554 801
>
>
>
>
> ROOT 6 LIMITED
> Registered in the UK at
> 4 WARDOUR MEWS, LONDON
> W1F 8AJ
> Company No. 03433253
>
>
> -
> Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To unsubscribe, please
> visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html.
> Unofficial list archive:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
>
> -
> Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To unsubscribe, please
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> list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
>
>
>
>
> --
> Please email me back if you need any more help.
>
> Brian Butterworth
> http://www.ukfree.tv
>



-- 
Please email me back if you need any more help.

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http://www.ukfree.tv

Re: [backstage] DAB rollout...

[Brian Butterworth]

On 09/04/2008, Andrew Bowden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Then you have GCap pulling out of DAB, the two stations closing down
> > (including Planet Rock, sniff)
>
> Planet Rock has had a reprive whilst they discuss sale options - and
> Global (who are taking over Gcap) are apparently more DAB friendly.
>
>
> > Plus my Dad prefers Radio 4 on FM because it doesn't drop to a lower
> > bitrate at peak time (why?!), call him an old cynic if you like. ;)
>
> It goes low at certain points because the station splits into two - so
> that the Long Wave opt outs can be broadcast on DAB.  For example,
> 8:30am, Today on one, Yesterday in Parliament on the other.
>
> I presume they do the same for the Daily Service.   LW Sport gets
> carried on Five Live Sports Extra, hence it's not a problem.


>From what I recall James Cridland telling me, the 5LSX service is created
out of the general bitrate pool and leaches capacity from a number of
services.

For some reason it is not the least listen to and highest bitrate service
though.


IIRC, the opt-outs take up about 45 minutes a day, so it's more cost
> effective to use this feature than it would be to broadcast a duplicate
> station.
>
> >   What worries me is that digital radio is almost still in a state
> > of flux; in the space of three years, an industry-changing
> > redefinition of the DAB standard is released and it causes all sorts
> > of headaches and potential problems for manufacturers and
> > broadcasters. FM stereo was standardised in the early 60s and it's not
>
> > really changed since, yet I still feel like my DAB receiver (my
> > venerable Wavefinder) is nothing more than 'sandbox kit', yet I've had
>
> > it for years. I think half the problem is people just can't trust
> > hardware they buy today to work in three/four years' time, whatever
> > the assurances given.
>
> I don't think it's /that/ bad but there's absolutely no denial that
> standards change quickly because technology moves quickly.  Just look at
> your PC after all.
>
> And that's the route of the problem, and personally I suspect it's going
> to get worse as time goes on.  DAB may look positively antique in 10
> years time as far as technology is concerned.
>
> However when you have sizable audience bases, it's extremely difficult
> just to turn something off because something better has come along
> because people don't want to go out and buy new equipment.  Such big
> switch-offs are rare (last one I can think of was the migration from VHF
> to UHF for TV signals which finally ended in the 1980s after UHF first
> launched in the 1960s)
>
>
> -
> Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To unsubscribe, please
> visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html.  
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> list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
>



-- 
Please email me back if you need any more help.

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RE: [backstage] DAB rollout...

[Christopher Woods]

Some interesting responses guys, thanks for humouring me :) Contrary to how
it may seem occasionally, ;) I don't try to post stuff to here simply to
ruffle feathers (I find it absolutely fascinating to enter in to these kinds
of conversations with people actually involved in the broadcast industry!)

I know we as individuals can't move mountains with regards to sorting out
all the problems or situations the assorted broadcast industries are in, but
it's good to know that I'm not the only person thinking about all of this. I
have every intention of supporting digital radio takeup as long as it's
worth it (i.e. there's at least something of quality on it that's not
available on FM) but at the same time I do wonder about the success of DAB,
Freeview, choice of formats, satellite, broadband platforms etc... in the
grander scheme of things, as I suppose is a healthy thing to do...

Anyway, I appreciate the discourse. Cheers all!

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Re: [backstage] DAB rollout...

[Steve Jolly]

Christopher Woods wrote:
Three years after the 
BBC's digital radio rollout was first started with 6Music, the WorldDMB 
decided to specify the inclusion of HE-AAC in the spec - yet, AAC had 
been standardised in 1997. Foresight never came into the equation? BBC 
R&D were testing AAC too back in the 90s, yet MP2 was still used even 
though it would've been early enough to adopt AAC wholesale at that 
point (only pissing off the early adopters) but once one your mum gets a 
digital radio the situation gets a lot trickier.


Just 'cos a technology's standardised doesn't mean that it's 
cost-effective to deploy it.  AAC support in "MP3" players didn't become 
common until the iPod launched in 2001, despite the fact that late '90s 
MP3 players were desperately short of storage, and would have been prime 
candidates for implementing a more efficient codec.  MP3 itself could 
have been a candidate codec for DAB, but it's more sensitive to bit 
errors than MP2, so it needs a more robust FEC scheme - an expert 
colleague once told me that the overall bitrate savings from such a 
change would only amount to about 10%, which at the time probably 
wouldn't have justified the extra receiver cost.


The parents still don't 
have a digital radio, exactly because they know that the spec will 
change at some point in the future. Plus my Dad prefers Radio 4 on FM 
because it doesn't drop to a lower bitrate at peak time (why?!), call 
him an old cynic if you like. ;)


Well, the spec for every broadcasting platform will change at some point 
in the future. :-)  I guess the salient point is probably that your 
parents are satisfied with the existing FM service though.


What worries me is that digital radio is almost still in a state of 
flux; in the space of three years, an industry-changing redefinition of 
the DAB standard is released and it causes all sorts of headaches and 
potential problems for manufacturers and broadcasters. FM stereo was 
standardised in the early 60s and it's not really changed since, yet I 
still feel like my DAB receiver (my venerable Wavefinder) is nothing 
more than 'sandbox kit', yet I've had it for years. I think half the 
problem is people just can't trust hardware they buy today to work in 
three/four years' time, whatever the assurances given.


Freeview has exactly the same issue (cf discussions about Ofcom's plans 
to push broadcasters towards a particular Freeview HD solution), but 
takeup there has been much faster.  It's interesting. :-)


S



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RE: [backstage] DAB rollout...

[Gareth Davis]

Andrew Bowden wrote:
> 
> However when you have sizable audience bases, it's extremely difficult
> just to turn something off because something better has come along
> because people don't want to go out and buy new equipment.  Such big
> switch-offs are rare

If we were to ditch everything and start again tomorrow I'm not
convinced we wouldn't be in the same situation. The multiplex operators
would take the same correct (from the shareholder's point of view)
commercial decisions to fit as many streams on a mux as possible. So
instead of getting 64K Mono MP2 station you will get 2 32K Mono AAC
stations. Would this be an improvement for the amount of hassle it would
cause?

> (last one I can think of was the 
> migration from VHF
> to UHF for TV signals which finally ended in the 1980s after UHF first
> launched in the 1960s)

Which released Band III, which was then available for use by DAB.

 
-- 
Gareth Davis | Production Systems Specialist
World Service Future Media, Digital Delivery Team - Part of BBC Global
News Division
* http://www.bbcworldservice.com/ * 702NE Bush House, Strand, London,
WC2B 4PH

My views - not Auntie's.

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RE: [backstage] DAB rollout...

[Ben Poor]

After declaring an obvious interest, I have to say that stating GCap is
pulling out of DAB is somewhat of a very large exaggeration. 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andrew Bowden
Sent: 09 April 2008 09:45
To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
Subject: RE: [backstage] DAB rollout...

> Then you have GCap pulling out of DAB, the two stations closing down 
> (including Planet Rock, sniff)

Planet Rock has had a reprive whilst they discuss sale options - and
Global (who are taking over Gcap) are apparently more DAB friendly.

 
> Plus my Dad prefers Radio 4 on FM because it doesn't drop to a lower 
> bitrate at peak time (why?!), call him an old cynic if you like. ;)

It goes low at certain points because the station splits into two - so
that the Long Wave opt outs can be broadcast on DAB.  For example,
8:30am, Today on one, Yesterday in Parliament on the other.

I presume they do the same for the Daily Service.   LW Sport gets
carried on Five Live Sports Extra, hence it's not a problem.

IIRC, the opt-outs take up about 45 minutes a day, so it's more cost
effective to use this feature than it would be to broadcast a duplicate
station.

>   What worries me is that digital radio is almost still in a state
of 
> flux; in the space of three years, an industry-changing redefinition 
> of the DAB standard is released and it causes all sorts of headaches 
> and potential problems for manufacturers and broadcasters. FM stereo 
> was standardised in the early 60s and it's not

> really changed since, yet I still feel like my DAB receiver (my 
> venerable Wavefinder) is nothing more than 'sandbox kit', yet I've had

> it for years. I think half the problem is people just can't trust 
> hardware they buy today to work in three/four years' time, whatever 
> the assurances given.

I don't think it's /that/ bad but there's absolutely no denial that
standards change quickly because technology moves quickly.  Just look at
your PC after all.

And that's the route of the problem, and personally I suspect it's going
to get worse as time goes on.  DAB may look positively antique in 10
years time as far as technology is concerned.

However when you have sizable audience bases, it's extremely difficult
just to turn something off because something better has come along
because people don't want to go out and buy new equipment.  Such big
switch-offs are rare (last one I can think of was the migration from VHF
to UHF for TV signals which finally ended in the 1980s after UHF first
launched in the 1960s)
 

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RE: [backstage] DAB rollout...

[Andrew Bowden]

> Then you have GCap pulling out of DAB, the two stations closing down 
> (including Planet Rock, sniff)

Planet Rock has had a reprive whilst they discuss sale options - and
Global (who are taking over Gcap) are apparently more DAB friendly.

 
> Plus my Dad prefers Radio 4 on FM because it doesn't drop to a lower
> bitrate at peak time (why?!), call him an old cynic if you like. ;)

It goes low at certain points because the station splits into two - so
that the Long Wave opt outs can be broadcast on DAB.  For example,
8:30am, Today on one, Yesterday in Parliament on the other.

I presume they do the same for the Daily Service.   LW Sport gets
carried on Five Live Sports Extra, hence it's not a problem.

IIRC, the opt-outs take up about 45 minutes a day, so it's more cost
effective to use this feature than it would be to broadcast a duplicate
station.

>   What worries me is that digital radio is almost still in a state
> of flux; in the space of three years, an industry-changing 
> redefinition of the DAB standard is released and it causes all sorts 
> of headaches and potential problems for manufacturers and 
> broadcasters. FM stereo was standardised in the early 60s and it's not

> really changed since, yet I still feel like my DAB receiver (my 
> venerable Wavefinder) is nothing more than 'sandbox kit', yet I've had

> it for years. I think half the problem is people just can't trust 
> hardware they buy today to work in three/four years' time, whatever 
> the assurances given.

I don't think it's /that/ bad but there's absolutely no denial that
standards change quickly because technology moves quickly.  Just look at
your PC after all.

And that's the route of the problem, and personally I suspect it's going
to get worse as time goes on.  DAB may look positively antique in 10
years time as far as technology is concerned.

However when you have sizable audience bases, it's extremely difficult
just to turn something off because something better has come along
because people don't want to go out and buy new equipment.  Such big
switch-offs are rare (last one I can think of was the migration from VHF
to UHF for TV signals which finally ended in the 1980s after UHF first
launched in the 1960s)
 

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RE: [backstage] DAB rollout...

[zen16083]

Yep, am waiting for freesat to launch as there is no digi signal on our
transmitter until 2012. Though freesat won’t give me radio reception ;-(

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Brian Butterworth
Sent: 09 April 2008 07:44
To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
Subject: Re: [backstage] DAB rollout...


On 09/04/2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  <
[EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote:
Bit of luck you didn't move to where I live There is not digital
anything here (not TV or DAB).

It's 99.9% likely that there is Freesat though!

http://www.freesat.co.uk/home.php

And it's always worth a try...

http://www.ukfree.tv/transmitters.php


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
[mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ]On Behalf Of Rupert Watson
Sent: 09 April 2008 05:35
To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk <mailto:backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [backstage] DAB rollout...

I bought a Sony XDRS50B DAB radio last month so my wife could listen to BBC
London despite moving to Watford. As a result she loves DAB and has
converted a number of her friends.

For her it wasn't about quality; it was about convenience.


On 09/04/2008 03:47, "Christopher Woods" < [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote:

> "And I'd want to switch to DAB why, exactly?"

Rupert Watson
www.root6.com <http://www.root6.com>
+44 7787 554 801




ROOT 6 LIMITED
Registered in the UK at
4 WARDOUR MEWS, LONDON
W1F 8AJ
Company No. 03433253


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Please email me back if you need any more help.

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Re: [backstage] DAB rollout...

[Brian Butterworth]

On 09/04/2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Bit of luck you didn't move to where I live There is not digital
> anything here (not TV or DAB).


It's 99.9% likely that there is Freesat though!

http://www.freesat.co.uk/home.php

And it's always worth a try...

http://www.ukfree.tv/transmitters.php


-Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Rupert Watson
> Sent: 09 April 2008 05:35
> To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
> Subject: Re: [backstage] DAB rollout...
>
> I bought a Sony XDRS50B DAB radio last month so my wife could listen to
> BBC
> London despite moving to Watford. As a result she loves DAB and has
> converted a number of her friends.
>
> For her it wasn't about quality; it was about convenience.
>
>
> On 09/04/2008 03:47, "Christopher Woods" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > "And I'd want to switch to DAB why, exactly?"
>
> Rupert Watson
> www.root6.com
> +44 7787 554 801
>
>
>
>
> ROOT 6 LIMITED
> Registered in the UK at
> 4 WARDOUR MEWS, LONDON
> W1F 8AJ
> Company No. 03433253
>
>
> -
> Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To unsubscribe, please
> visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html.
> Unofficial list archive:
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>
> -
> Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To unsubscribe, please
> visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html.  
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>



-- 
Please email me back if you need any more help.

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RE: [backstage] DAB rollout...

[zen16083]

Bit of luck you didn't move to where I live There is not digital
anything here (not TV or DAB).


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Rupert Watson
Sent: 09 April 2008 05:35
To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
Subject: Re: [backstage] DAB rollout...

I bought a Sony XDRS50B DAB radio last month so my wife could listen to BBC
London despite moving to Watford. As a result she loves DAB and has
converted a number of her friends.

For her it wasn't about quality; it was about convenience.


On 09/04/2008 03:47, "Christopher Woods" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> "And I'd want to switch to DAB why, exactly?"

Rupert Watson
www.root6.com
+44 7787 554 801




ROOT 6 LIMITED
Registered in the UK at
4 WARDOUR MEWS, LONDON
W1F 8AJ
Company No. 03433253


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Re: [backstage] DAB rollout...

[Brian Butterworth]

James,

Another interesting point about technology sales is that DAB (like Freeview)
is actually sold at retail price, whereas almost everything else is sold at
a subsidized discount and then you pay for the price of the handset (ie,
mobile phone - iPhone in particular), set-top box (BSkyB) by siging up to a
long term direct-debit scheme.

This allows these items to be sold at a very low price, or provided for
"free".

There is a good side and a bad side to this.  The good side is that a large
order of a new technology drives down the unit costs, so that the new
technology is actually priced say 12 months ahead of the curve (with Moore's
Law normally halving the cost in 18 months).

The bad side, of course, is that it allows the gatekeeper to force those who
use this technology at the 'apparent original cost price'.Shame Rapture
didn't make a good case of it, seems the courts like a monopoly these days:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2008/mar/31/digitaltv.bskyb


IMHO, Digital One never really put any effort into getting decent services
onto their multiplex and simply used automatic play stations to fill the
space and expected the BBC to do the job for them, hoping that once Auntie
had got listeners hooked they could pull their space-fillers and replace
them with paying customers.


On 08/04/2008, James Cridland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 11:58 AM, Christopher Woods <
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > What concerns me is the pronounced slowdown in
> > consumer investment in digital radio technology.
>
>
> Well, there's maths for you.
>
> 1 set sold in 1994.
> 2 sets sold in 1995.
> 200% increase in DAB sets sold!!! Woot!!!
>
> 5.5 million sets sold by end 2006
>
> 6.5 million sets sold by end 2007
> Oh dear, that's not a 200% increase, DAB must be stillborn. Alert! Call
> the police!
>
> Incidentally, I've bought (another) DAB set today - the Pure Siesta, a
> clock radio alarm. £49, and even DAB+ upgradeable. Neat little device. Also
> available, but I didn't buy it, a clock radio from Tesco own-brand Tecknicka
> or something similar, for £15.00. And yes, it included DAB.
>
> --
> http://james.cridland.net/ | http://www.mediauk.com/
>
> Media UK is a Not At All Bad Ltd production.
> http://notatallbad.ltd.uk/legal_info/




-- 
Please email me back if you need any more help.

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Re: [backstage] DAB rollout...

[Rupert Watson]

I bought a Sony XDRS50B DAB radio last month so my wife could listen to BBC
London despite moving to Watford. As a result she loves DAB and has
converted a number of her friends.

For her it wasn't about quality; it was about convenience.


On 09/04/2008 03:47, "Christopher Woods" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> "And I'd want to switch to DAB why, exactly?"

Rupert Watson
www.root6.com
+44 7787 554 801 




ROOT 6 LIMITED
Registered in the UK at
4 WARDOUR MEWS, LONDON
W1F 8AJ
Company No. 03433253


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RE: [backstage] DAB rollout...

[Christopher Woods]

What concerns me is the pronounced slowdown in
consumer investment in digital radio technology.


5.5 million sets sold by end 2006
6.5 million sets sold by end 2007
 
 Oh dear, that's not a 200% increase, DAB must be stillborn. Alert! Call the
police! 

You put forth your argument well sir :P How many sets were sold by Q4 2005?
And while a difference of a million is still a difference of a million, how
many of these radios were for homes already equipped for digital listening?
How many *decent*, mid-range, standalone radio receivers can you buy now in
most high street stores that don't come with a DAB chip in them?
 
> Incidentally, I've bought (another) DAB set today - the Pure Siesta, a
clock radio alarm. 
> £49, and even DAB+ upgradeable. Neat little device. Also available, but I
didn't buy it, 
> a clock radio from Tesco own-brand Tecknicka or something similar, for
£15.00. And yes, it included DAB. 
 
... Illustrates the last two point somewhat. Plus, we can't assume that sets
including DAB technology are a direct indicator of active adoption of DAB
(buying a radio which includes DAB but still has FM is somewhat like
adoption by stealth - not necessarily a bad thing, but again somewhat
confusing statistics-wise).
 
Not trying to 'call you out' or anything, but I note in a January article on
Grauniad (

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2008/jan/23/digitaltvradio.radio) that,

The number of digital radios is up nearly 50% on the 4.4m sold by the fourth
quarter of 2006.

So which figure is the correct one for 2006 sales - 4.4m or 5.5m? (just
curious). If I'm missing something, please point it out to me.
 
Stark imagery such as the one in that el reg article don't serve to allay
the fears of regular consumers (like me), and also the specific statistics
from reports such as the Enders paper aren't available to people like me
because we don't have annual subscriptions to Enders ;)
 
Then you have GCap pulling out of DAB, the two stations closing down
(including Planet Rock, sniff), and the huge irony that stations like
Kerrang - broadcasting in the comparative high fidelity of stereo FM here in
the Birmingham area, are only on DAB at 64kbps mono. "And I'd want to switch
to DAB why, exactly?"
 
Hazlitt's comments back in February were interesting too...

"Hazlitt thinks the latter. "DAB is not an economically viable platform for
us. Other radio operators may think differently and that is entirely their
prerogative," she said today.
"What we look at is consumers and they are saying it is not a big platform
of choice for them. It does not provide an experience that is sufficiently
better quality than what they have on FM."

"As Hazlitt pointed out today, while nearly 10% of all radio listening is
now to DAB radio, only 4% is to digital-only stations. They remain a niche
interest, a niche that will shrink further with the closure of Planet Rock
and TheJazz.

Although, of course, I'd be remiss to not include the line


"There is a danger, of course, that we mistake GCap's woes for an industry
wide retreat."
(Organ Grinder:

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/organgrinder/2008/02/double_blow_for_dab_radio.h
tml)

 
 While I was on Google (ironically, in a search for 'uk digital radio takeup
statistics') this 2004 article projects 2008 takeup as 28.7% - ~13million.
Working it back, the February estimate of 22% takeup equates to just under
10m - 9.97m if we generously round up.
 
I do have to wonder about the planning for DAB though; the BBC was
broadcasting from 1995 but it was a few years before enthusiast-level
receivers (triple digit prices) became available. Three years after the
BBC's digital radio rollout was first started with 6Music, the WorldDMB
decided to specify the inclusion of HE-AAC in the spec - yet, AAC had been
standardised in 1997. Foresight never came into the equation? BBC R&D were
testing AAC too back in the 90s, yet MP2 was still used even though it
would've been early enough to adopt AAC wholesale at that point (only
pissing off the early adopters) but once one your mum gets a digital radio
the situation gets a lot trickier. The parents still don't have a digital
radio, exactly because they know that the spec will change at some point in
the future. Plus my Dad prefers Radio 4 on FM because it doesn't drop to a
lower bitrate at peak time (why?!), call him an old cynic if you like. ;)
 
What worries me is that digital radio is almost still in a state of flux; in
the space of three years, an industry-changing redefinition of the DAB
standard is released and it causes all sorts of headaches and potential
problems for manufacturers and broadcasters. FM stereo was standardised in
the early 60s and it's not really changed since, yet I still feel like my
DAB receiver (my venerable Wavefinder) is nothing more than 'sandbox kit',
yet I've had it for years. I thi

Re: [backstage] DAB rollout...

[Peter Bowyer]

On 08/04/2008, James Cridland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 11:58 AM, Christopher Woods
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > What concerns me is the pronounced slowdown in
> > consumer investment in digital radio technology.
>
> Well, there's maths for you.
>
> 1 set sold in 1994.
> 2 sets sold in 1995.
> 200% increase in DAB sets sold!!! Woot!!!
>
> 5.5 million sets sold by end 2006
>  6.5 million sets sold by end 2007
> Oh dear, that's not a 200% increase, DAB must be stillborn. Alert! Call the
> police!
>
> Incidentally, I've bought (another) DAB set today - the Pure Siesta, a clock
> radio alarm. £49, and even DAB+ upgradeable. Neat little device. Also
> available, but I didn't buy it, a clock radio from Tesco own-brand Tecknicka
> or something similar, for £15.00. And yes, it included DAB.

Technika. I bought a Technika DVD player at the weekend for £20 from
Tesco, plays everything you can think of including Xvid on CD-R and
DVD+/-R. What next?

-- 
Peter Bowyer
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Follow me on Twitter: twitter.com/peeebeee

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Re: [backstage] DAB rollout...

[James Cridland]

On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 11:58 AM, Christopher Woods <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> What concerns me is the pronounced slowdown in
> consumer investment in digital radio technology.


Well, there's maths for you.

1 set sold in 1994.
2 sets sold in 1995.
200% increase in DAB sets sold!!! Woot!!!

5.5 million sets sold by end 2006
6.5 million sets sold by end 2007
Oh dear, that's not a 200% increase, DAB must be stillborn. Alert! Call the
police!

Incidentally, I've bought (another) DAB set today - the Pure Siesta, a clock
radio alarm. £49, and even DAB+ upgradeable. Neat little device. Also
available, but I didn't buy it, a clock radio from Tesco own-brand Tecknicka
or something similar, for £15.00. And yes, it included DAB.

-- 
http://james.cridland.net/ | http://www.mediauk.com/

Media UK is a Not At All Bad Ltd production.
http://notatallbad.ltd.uk/legal_info/

RE: [backstage] DAB rollout...

[Christopher Woods]

Yeah, I don't know why people are holding DAB+ up as the be all and end all,
I think if we think that we're all wearing those rose-tinted specs again.
That said, it would be a nice upgrade to receive, but they'd just think
"better quality at same bandwidths... OH WAIT, same quality at lower! More
channels! Maybe we can get the audio channel from QVC on there too!"

I do wonder if maybe improved codecs such as used in the DAB+ spec might
decrease the inherent latency of DAB though, I have one of those funky
radio-controlled watches and it amuses me to see just how out of sync
everything is on the hour (analogue TV still rules... Then FM, then DVB-T,
satellite, DAB, LiveStation, then BBC.co.uk streams)

> The drivers stopped working when XP SP2 was released and 
> Psion terminated support at this point rather than rewrite 
> the drivers - so if you did keep your PC up to date it became 
> useless then. But the old drivers did start working again 
> under Vista, which was a bit if a surprise to me.

It was XP's USB drivers wot broke it. Some reported using Windows 2000's USB
drivers solved the problem. Also, the older your motherboard, the more
likely it is to work without incident because of the insane amount of
current it draws (because newer mobos actually have more compliant USB
controller chips which WILL shut down the port if the device tries to draw
more than the 500mV spec). Some also reported powered USB hubs helped, but
they just gave me issues. I use my Wavefinder on my Windows 2003 server (on
an older mobo) and it just works.

Of course, if you do hacks to the power supply and USB cable then you can
solve all of this(the amount of times I've lost signal because the little 5v
wall wart has come unplugged from the USB cable!... Cable ties are your best
friend. The "wflights" application to turn the Wavefinder's lights off also
saves on precious current and I've had no problems except for the occasional
dropout in DABBar for about 3 years now. :)

I've found that when I've been in borderline signal areas with my
Wavefinder, just angling the power and USB cables in different directions
can make the difference between 90% and 100% signal... Make of that what you
will! Maybe the protective braiding isn't too good ;) CRT monitors also
wreaked havoc with it most likely due to the RF or EM (or both?) they chuck
out I guess.

But hey, if it ain't broke?... That, and I've not found a really good DAB
receiver which I can plug into my PC, do scheduled recordings by just saving
the MP2 stream - and generally control it via a PC application (which also
streams over my LAN or optionally the WAN) (I know there's more than one DAB
app that can achieve this.)


However, I am not normal. What concerns me is the pronounced slowdown in
consumer investment in digital radio technology. I know there's a saturation
point but we're nowhere near that - and although there's no proposed DSO for
radio (yet), how are we supposed to even contemplate one when FM is far
superior both in terms of real-world quality and market saturation?

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RE: [backstage] DAB rollout...

[Andrew Bowden]

Gareth Davis
> Andrew Bowden wrote:
> > You still have a Wavefinder?  Blimey.  I threw mine in the bin in a 
> > fit of rage after it caused the signal to break up for about the 
> > twentith time in the space of 30 minutes.  That Wavefinder 
> > caused me 
> > so much stress and grief it was insane.
> I still have one, I found most of the problems I had with it 
> were down to the rubbish power supply that come with it. 
> After I chopped the power lead in half and added a molex 
> connector to power it from the 12v supply inside the PC it 
> behaved much better - rather than dropping out whenever the 
> blue LED came on and the extra current draw overloaded the 
> rubbish PSU. I suspect most of the surviving ones have had 
> some kind of mod involving the power supply.

I ditched the original PSU as soon as I found out that was part of the
cause.  Then I added an app which disabled the LEDs as well - which did
help.  I spent ages trying to find the part of the room with the best
signal too!  Next task was to buy a powered USB hub, and plug it into
that - which also helped a little.  But still it was a nightmare :(

The other flaw was the USB plug on it - my main PC ran (as it does now)
Linux, so the Wavefinder was always plugged into a laptop which ran
Windows XP.  But if you nudged ever so slightly the laptop, the cable
would come lose, and the whole thing would lock up and refuse to work.
The only solution was to reboot Windows!


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RE: [backstage] DAB rollout...

[Ben Poor]

Sounds similar to the problems I'm having with my Wavefinder...thanks
for that!

On a related topic, the newish generation of USB DAB devices are pretty
good:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0012IQ940/kelkoompcpc-electron
ics-21/ref=nosim

And

http://www.vnunet.com/personal-computer-world/hardware/2165666/gizoo-dab
-usb-digital-receiver

And has software able to do things like BWS and EPG to some extent. The
latter also being fortunate enough to have a project devoted to making
it work under Linux:

http://dabhand.sourceforge.net/

I was about to say I'm somewhat surprised that someone hasn't written
Wavefinder drivers for Linux, but then I saw this:

http://insignificant.org/index.php/2008/02/10/psion-wavefinder-works-on-
linux/

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gareth Davis
Sent: 03 April 2008 10:56
To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
Subject: RE: [backstage] DAB rollout...

Andrew Bowden wrote:
> You still have a Wavefinder?  Blimey.  I threw mine in the bin in a 
> fit of rage after it caused the signal to break up for about the 
> twentith time in the space of 30 minutes.  That Wavefinder caused me 
> so much stress and grief it was insane.
> 

I still have one, I found most of the problems I had with it were down
to the rubbish power supply that come with it. After I chopped the power
lead in half and added a molex connector to power it from the 12v supply
inside the PC it behaved much better - rather than dropping out whenever
the blue LED came on and the extra current draw overloaded the rubbish
PSU. I suspect most of the surviving ones have had some kind of mod
involving the power supply.

The drivers stopped working when XP SP2 was released and Psion
terminated support at this point rather than rewrite the drivers - so if
you did keep your PC up to date it became useless then. But the old
drivers did start working again under Vista, which was a bit if a
surprise to me. 

--
Gareth Davis | Production Systems Specialist World Service Future Media,
Digital Delivery Team - Part of BBC Global News Division
* http://www.bbcworldservice.com/ * 702NE Bush House, Strand, London,
WC2B 4PH

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RE: [backstage] DAB rollout...

[Gareth Davis]

Andrew Bowden wrote:
> You still have a Wavefinder?  Blimey.  I threw mine in the 
> bin in a fit
> of rage after it caused the signal to break up for about the twentith
> time in the space of 30 minutes.  That Wavefinder caused me so much
> stress and grief it was insane.
> 

I still have one, I found most of the problems I had with it were down
to the rubbish power supply that come with it. After I chopped the power
lead in half and added a molex connector to power it from the 12v supply
inside the PC it behaved much better - rather than dropping out whenever
the blue LED came on and the extra current draw overloaded the rubbish
PSU. I suspect most of the surviving ones have had some kind of mod
involving the power supply.

The drivers stopped working when XP SP2 was released and Psion
terminated support at this point rather than rewrite the drivers - so if
you did keep your PC up to date it became useless then. But the old
drivers did start working again under Vista, which was a bit if a
surprise to me. 

-- 
Gareth Davis | Production Systems Specialist
World Service Future Media, Digital Delivery Team - Part of BBC Global
News Division
* http://www.bbcworldservice.com/ * 702NE Bush House, Strand, London,
WC2B 4PH

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RE: [backstage] DAB rollout...

[Andrew Bowden]

>   I know there's been discusson around DAB's quality, nationwide 
> rollout, relative cost etc... An interesting aticle on El Reg today 
> was (typically) biased, but it did have an interesting graph of year-
> on-year change of unit sales sales for DAB receivers
>   http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/04/02/dab_disaster_analysis/

I always love this niave belief that by moving to DAB+ (as demonstrated
in the above article) we'll suddenly get wonderful audio quality and it
will be a huge improvement.

I'd like to think it would be, but frankly I don't believe it.  DAB
could have better bitrates right now - but the fact that some commercial
stations are ridiculously low bitrates, speaks volumes to me.
Commercial radio is run by accountants - not sound engineers after all.


Of course, I'm biased.  I have two DAB radios myself and I love them to
bits.  My Bug hovers up comedy from Radio 4 and BBC 7 that I'd overwise
miss, as well as waking me up in the morning, whilst my Evoke 2 has
recently been relocated to the kitchen so that it can blast out 6music
whilst I'm cooking :)


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RE: [backstage] DAB rollout...

[Andrew Bowden]

> Agreed - even DVB-T radio channels are a higher bitrate... 
> Unfortunately while that's viable, buying and installing a 
> satellite dish & receiver is a bit out of the question for me 
> :( I like my USB DAB radio, it's just so frustrating 
> sometimes using it (for the various oft-discussed reasons!) 
> My DVB-T reception is patchy at best too (the house we're 
> tenants in at the moment doesn't have an installed aerial and 
> we're moving out in about 3 months so there's not much point 
> getting one fitted for the price that could get you a Sky 
> installation!) My Wavefinder's the only thing that receives a 
> solid signal and, of course, it would be the worst quality of 
> all three ;)

You still have a Wavefinder?  Blimey.  I threw mine in the bin in a fit
of rage after it caused the signal to break up for about the twentith
time in the space of 30 minutes.  That Wavefinder caused me so much
stress and grief it was insane.

This was years ago, but it was the best thing I ever did.  I got my
Evoke 2 instead, which has never, ever, given me a single burble.
Previous to getting my Evoke 2, I was convinced we lived in a dodgy DAB
signal area.  It turned out that we had a whopping 100% signal
quality...

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RE: [backstage] DAB rollout...

[Christopher Woods]

> Personally I think satellite radio may be a better option.

Agreed - even DVB-T radio channels are a higher bitrate... Unfortunately
while that's viable, buying and installing a satellite dish & receiver is a
bit out of the question for me :( I like my USB DAB radio, it's just so
frustrating sometimes using it (for the various oft-discussed reasons!) My
DVB-T reception is patchy at best too (the house we're tenants in at the
moment doesn't have an installed aerial and we're moving out in about 3
months so there's not much point getting one fitted for the price that could
get you a Sky installation!) My Wavefinder's the only thing that receives a
solid signal and, of course, it would be the worst quality of all three ;)

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Re: [backstage] DAB rollout...

[Ian Partridge]

On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 4:37 PM, Christopher Woods
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'm sure we can all agree that the DAB receiver market is far from
> saturation. It doesn't bode well for the migration of radio to an
> all-digital platform if these are the kind of sales statistics we're getting
> after half a decade :( What can be done to solve this problem? (besides more
> advertising for it)

DAB+ is a life-ring which might be able to save DAB. Ofcom seem to be
typically wishy-washy on the subject though (shades of HD freeview).

http://www.wohnort.demon.co.uk/DAB/uknat.html is a pretty good summary
of why DAB sounds so awful.

Personally I think satellite radio may be a better option.

-- 
Ian Partridge

City of Southampton Orchestra - http://www.csorchestra.org
Next concert 5th April - Elgar: Enigma Variations
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