Re: Crowley?!? Really?!? was Re: Book of Daniel fulfilled
Scott, At 01:28 AM 12/12/2004, you wrote: >>"Do what thou wilt." IS the sum of the law. It is the exercise of will that >>we are granted in this existence. One must, of course, be prepared to face >>the consequences of willfullness, but the exercise of will is why God created >>us.<< As a sociologist, I recognize that there are always social controls which place severe limits on the exercise of will. However, I think that, in a general sense, we are, as Sartre wrote, condemned to be free. Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net "Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Crowley?!? Really?!? was Re: Book of Daniel fulfilled
"Do what thou wilt." IS the sum of the law. It is the exercise of will that we are granted in this existence. One must, of course, be prepared to face the consequences of willfullness, but the exercise of will is why God created us. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Crowley?!? Really?!? was Re: Book of Daniel fulfilled
Hi, Susan, At 06:10 PM 12/11/2004, you wrote: >>Most Protestants don't live in the US, however it is the evangelical wings >>that are growing world wide as well, so maybe you are right.<< Yes, I think, increasingly, it is true on a global level, as well. However, I was referring to the U.S. (the elections, etc.). Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net "Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Crowley?!? Really?!? was Re: Book of Daniel fulfilled
Gilberto, At 06:30 PM 12/11/2004, you wrote: >>But why? In what sense is Crowley better? I mean from a certain point of view >>I might be able to sympathize. I sort of have a visceral reaction those folks >>too. But that's just it. A *visceral* reaction.<< It is ultimately a personal response. However, when I was 11-13 years old, I was taken with Crowley's ideas on various subjects, especially his esoteric approach to Freemasonry and his focus on Thelema (will). I actually practiced certain Thelemic rituals when I was around that age, including making a pentacle on the floor and invoking various spiritual entities! IMO, Crowley's approach is like a spiritualization of Nietzche and Schopenhauer, two other persons I admire a great deal. Even more so, Crowley lived a life of deconstruction, as did his imitator Anton von LaVey. Both men made a point of exercising their wills to challenge normative conventions. They were spiritual revolutionaries. >>They come off as arrogant and presumptuous and think that Christianity is the >>only way, fine. And their political views are problematic too. In contrast to >>that, Crowley elicits a different reaction. But when you line them up in a >>row I have to ask if traditional morality is really all that bad?<< Crowley liked to say he was the Beast 666, but he was only bragging. ;-) I mean, it depends on which traditional norm, more or folkway, you have in mind. I might agree, at least partially, with some of the ethical positions held by Robertson, Falwell, and F. Graham. With others, I would strongly disagree. However, I certainly prefer Crowley's revolutionary, deconstructivist approach to those used by Robertson, etc. >>Wouldn't Crowley have classed the Bahai faith as part of the Age of Osiris, >>with the dying God, and sacrifice and restraint rather than the new Age of >>Horus, the conquering (self-indulgent) child?<< I think that would be a safe bet. >>But I tend to think that the way he came to an end follows pretty directly >>from a philosophy of "Do what thou wilt".<< There is more to it than that. The basic "creed," if you can call it that, of Thelema is "Love is the Law. Love under will." In effect, Crowley exhorted people to use their wills in a manner consistent with the law of love (as he understood it). >>I can imagine that there are some individuals out there who can try to follow >>their Will and not be total egoistic hedonists, But if the number one >>principle and commandment of your path is "Do what thou wilt shall be the >>whole of the Law" I think it is going to be very very hard to come to a good >>end on that path.<< Again, Crowley's framework is highly complex. However, much of it comes down to an understanding of individual human will and how, according to Crowley, we should exercise it. Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net "Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Crowley?!? Really?!? was Re: Book of Daniel fulfilled
In a message dated 12/11/2004 5:18:08 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I would prefer Crowley to the guards of the "new" mainstream Protestantism any day, e.g., Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, and Franklin Graham.. Mainstream? God help us! __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Crowley?!? Really?!? was Re: Book of Daniel fulfilled
On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 17:16:41 -0600, Mark A. Foster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Gilberto, > At 04:09 PM 12/11/2004, you wrote: > >>What is surprising is that a Bahai (or anyone else who followed a religion > >>which adhered to "standard" "traditional" morality) would favorably compare > >>Crowley to mainstream Christianity.<< > I would prefer Crowley to the guards of the "new" mainstream Protestantism > any day, e.g., Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, and Franklin Graham.. Gilberto: But why? In what sense is Crowley better? I mean from a certain point of view I might be able to sympathize. I sort of have a visceral reaction those folks too. But that's just it. A *visceral* reaction. They come off as arrogant and presumptuous and think that Christianity is the only way, fine. And their political views are problematic too. In contrast to that, Crowley elicits a different reaction. But when you line them up in a row I have to ask if traditional morality is really all that bad? Wouldn't Crowley have classed the Bahai faith as part of the Age of Osiris, with the dying God, and sacrifice and restraint rather than the new Age of Horus, the conquering (self-indulgent) child? > >>I mean here is a guy who called himself the Beast, adhered to the principle > >>"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law", proudly thought of the > >>marks on his body from syphilis as "battle scars" and died as a heroin > >>addict. Not exactly the kind of person I want as my guru.<< > Like all of us, he was an imperfect individual. I don't have a problem with imperfect. And I'm not the sort of person who would go around saying stuff like AIDS is a punishment from God or whatever. But I tend to think that the way he came to an end follows pretty directly from a philosophy of "Do what thou wilt". I can imagine that there are some individuals out there who can try to follow their Will and not be total egoistic hedonists, But if the number one principle and commandment of your path is "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law" I think it is going to be very very hard to come to a good end on that path. > Peace Gilberto -- "My people are hydroponic" __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Crowley?!? Really?!? was Re: Book of Daniel fulfilled
Susan, At 05:45 PM 12/11/2004, you wrote: >>Mainstream? God help us!<< You don't think that Falwell, Robertson, and F. Graham represent the *new* mainsteam Protestantism? That concept has been discussed in the religious studies literature, including the sociology of religion, for quite some time, and it was given new ammunition by the results of the recent election. The fundamentalist and evangelical churches of the Bible Belt are one of the major reasons Bush was re-elected. The *old* mainstream Protestantism has been steadily losing members for years. One of the reasons the United Church of Christ has launched its "Still Speaking" campaign is that it has lost over 700,000 members in the last few years. Their experience is typical among the old mainstream churches. Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net "Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Crowley?!? Really?!? was Re: Book of Daniel fulfilled
"You don't think that Falwell, Robertson, and F. Graham represent the *new* mainsteam Protestantism?" Dear Mark, Most Protestants don't live in the US, however it is the evangelical wings that are growing world wide as well, so maybe you are right. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Crowley?!? Really?!? was Re: Book of Daniel fulfilled
Gilberto, One more point. At 03:55 PM 12/11/2004, you wrote: >>Really!?!? I don't understand? What is the appeal? Besides, I've even heard >>from some followers of Thelema that in some ways the movement has already >>been "corrupted" to Crowleanity.<< There are many Thelemite groups. The largest is the U.S.-based Ordo Templi Orientis (OTO). There are also some other Thelemites and Thelemic organizations, not affiliated (or formerly affiliated) with the OTO, who have argued that the OTO has attempted to create a religion around Crowley. In fairness to the OTO, however, Crowley *did* claim to be the messiah of the age of Horus (the present period). Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net "Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Crowley?!? Really?!? was Re: Book of Daniel fulfilled
Gilberto, At 04:09 PM 12/11/2004, you wrote: >>What is surprising is that a Bahai (or anyone else who followed a religion >>which adhered to "standard" "traditional" morality) would favorably compare >>Crowley to mainstream Christianity.<< I would prefer Crowley to the guards of the "new" mainstream Protestantism any day, e.g., Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, and Franklin Graham.. >>I mean here is a guy who called himself the Beast, adhered to the principle >>"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law", proudly thought of the >>marks on his body from syphilis as "battle scars" and died as a heroin >>addict. Not exactly the kind of person I want as my guru.<< Like all of us, he was an imperfect individual. Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net "Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Crowley?!? Really?!? was Re: Book of Daniel fulfilled
In a message dated 12/11/2004 4:09:38 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What is surprising is that a Bahai (or anyone else who followed areligion which adhered to "standard" "traditional" morality) wouldfavorably compare Crowley to mainstream Christianity. Dear Gilberto, I think that surprises a lot of us. ;-} But you probably find more of that among Baha'is because a lot of them came from New Age backgrounds. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Crowley?!? Really?!? was Re: Book of Daniel fulfilled
Gilberto, At 03:55 PM 12/11/2004, you wrote: >>Really!?!? I don't understand? What is the appeal? Besides, I've even heard >>from some followers of Thelema that in some ways the movement has already >>been "corrupted" to Crowleanity.<< I have, since I was in my teens, admired Aleister Crowley's emphasis on the will (thelema), i.e., "Do as thou wilt is the whole of the law." It is reminiscent of Nietzsche. Anton von LaVey's "Satan" was not an evil being but a reformulation of Crowley's Thelema in (anti-)Christian terms. Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net "Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Crowley?!? Really?!? was Re: Book of Daniel fulfilled
On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 16:56:50 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > In a message dated 12/11/2004 3:55:31 P.M. Central Standard Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Really!?!? I don't understand? What is the appeal? Besides, I've even > heard from some followers of Thelema that in some ways the movement > has already been "corrupted" to Crowleanity. > Mark was into the occult before he became a Baha'i. But I don't see the > attraction myself. > When I was younger I would read about all kinds of stuff. But it was only recently after communicating with neo-pagans on line that I started to learn more about Crowley. I think in the abstract the Thelemites seem pretty thoughtful. I think you'd probably have to be pretty literate to slog through Crowley's writings, he had his fingers into everything, a mix of Tarot, I Ching, Kabbalah, Christian Gnosticism, Egyptian mythology, astrology, Masonry all kinds of stuff. It's not surprising to me that people would see interesting stuff in his writings and want to practice it. It's actually sprisingly well-thought out as a system (As far as I can tell). What is surprising is that a Bahai (or anyone else who followed a religion which adhered to "standard" "traditional" morality) would favorably compare Crowley to mainstream Christianity. I mean here is a guy who called himself the Beast, adhered to the principle "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law", proudly thought of the marks on his body from syphilis as "battle scars" and died as a heroin addict. Not exactly the kind of person I want as my guru. Peace Gilberto "My people are hydroponic" __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Crowley?!? Really?!? was Re: Book of Daniel fulfilled
In a message dated 12/11/2004 3:55:31 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Really!?!? I don't understand? What is the appeal? Besides, I've evenheard from some followers of Thelema that in some ways the movementhas already been "corrupted" to Crowleanity. Mark was into the occult before he became a Baha'i. But I don't see the attraction myself. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Crowley?!? Really?!? was Re: Book of Daniel fulfilled
On Thu, 09 Dec 2004 16:10:52 -0600, Mark A. Foster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi, Gilberto, Hello there Mark Gilberto: > >>I mean, if in 1000 years someone comes saying they are the next > >>Manifestaion except they are preaching doctrines reminiscent of the > >>Satanism of Anton LaVey or Alsteir Crowley, couldn't you say that there are > >>some fundamental spiritual principles which they are opposing.<< Mark: > I like Anton von LaVey and his mentor, Aleister Crowley! ;-) IMO, their views > on > many subjects are preferable to what I see in some versions of Christian > fundamentalism. Really!?!? I don't understand? What is the appeal? Besides, I've even heard from some followers of Thelema that in some ways the movement has already been "corrupted" to Crowleanity. Peace Gilberto -- "My people are hydroponic" __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Book of Daniel fulfilled
>>The last three paragraphs of a lecture by A. Einstein, 1920:<< IMO, a careful reading of `Abdu'l-Baha's comments on ether will show that He used it as a metaphor for spirit. He was a storyteller. If He were alive today, He might instead speak of bits and bytes. Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net "Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Book of Daniel fulfilled
The last three paragraphs of a lecture by A. Einstein, 1920: " Since according to our present conceptions the elementary particles of matter are also, in their essence, nothing else than condensations of the electromagnctic field, our present view of the universe presents two realities which are completely separated from each other conceptually, although connected causally, namely, gravitational ether and electromagnetic field, or as they might also be called space and matter. Of course it would be a great advance if we could succeed in comprehending the gravitational field and the electromagnetic field together as one unified conformation. Then for the first time the epoch of theoretical physics founded by Faraday and Maxwell would reach a satisfactory conclusion. The contrast between ether and matter would fade away, and, through the general theory of relativity, the whole of physics would become a complete system of thought, like geometry, kinematics, and the theory of gravitation. An exceedingly ingenious attempt in this direction has been made by the mathematician H. Weyl,; but I do not believe that his theory will hold its ground in relation to reality. Further, in contemplating the immediate future of theoretical physics we ought not unconditionally to reject the possibility that the facts comprised in the quantum theory may set bounds to the field theory beyond which it cannot pass. Recapitulating, we may say that according to the general theory of relativity space is endowed with physical qualities; in this sense, therefore, there exists an ether. According to the general theory of relativity space without ether is unthinkable; for in such space there not only wonld be no propagation of light, but also no possibility of existence for standards of space and time (measuring-rods and clocks), nor therefore any space-time intervals in the physical sense. But this ether may not be thought of as endowed with the quality characteristic of ponderable inedia, as consisting of parts which may be tracked through time. The idea of motion may not be applied to it. " Ether and the Theory of Relativity __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Book of Daniel fulfilled
Ronald Stephens: But the theory of the "ether" was disproven by a specific scientific experiment, the Michelson-Morley experiment. It is virtually impossible that this could be overturned. Firouz: Just a few months ago I read in some American Science Journal that the theory of ether could be proven. I try to get the source of this news and share it with you. regards, Firouz __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Book of Daniel fulfilled
James Mock wrote: > >There is but one power which heals -- that is God. The state or condition >through which the healing takes place is the confidence of the heart. By >some this state is reached through pills, powders, and physicians. By others >through hygiene, fasting, and prayer. By others through direct perception." > > (Abdu'l-Baha, Abdu'l-Baha in London, p. 95) > >Would "modern science" agree with this assertion? > >James If I put on my scientist hat, I would say that science has nothing to say about the quote above, because the quote is talking about spiritual matters, not scientific ones. As a scientist, one can certainly not state that the mind has no influence on the body, there is plenty of scientific evidence showing the powerful influence the mind has on the body. As to "God", though, I do not think science can comment one way or the other. Of course, there are doctrinaire 'scientists' who would reject any mention of 'God' out of hand. But they do not speak for science, only for themselves. I would call such people "fundamentalists in the religion of science". But we should avoid being like them, and accept that science is a very important path to truth, and religious writings are not science. There simply is no proof when it comes to ultimate questions like "God" and religion and the ultimate purpose of life and the universe. We each must investigate for ourselves. But how do we decide whether to accept a certain Prophet's vision? I think that Baha'u'llah addresses this question in the Book of Certitude and He shows that we must use logic and reason. If a Prophet says the universe was creating by constipated ducks, I personally would not buy into that Prophet's religion. If a Prophet says that science is a bunch of nonsense and that we should abandon the scientific method, I wouldn't buy into that Prophet's vision either. The dilemmna I face is this. I have bought into the vision of a glorious Prophet Who asks that we accept His Revelation *because* it is in accord with reason, logic and science, as well as the eternal spiritual principles espoused by all the previous true Prophets; only to later discover that many if not most of His adherents don't buy into His fundamental acknowledgement of science, reason and logic at all, and may even consider such a belief in reason and science to be bordering on heresy. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Book of Daniel fulfilled
In a message dated 12/10/04 9:27:32 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: There is but one power which heals -- that is God. The state or condition through which the healing takes place is the confidence of the heart. By some this state is reached through pills, powders, and physicians. By others through hygiene, fasting, and prayer. By others through direct perception." (Abdu'l-Baha, Abdu'l-Baha in London, p. 95) Would "modern science" agree with this assertion? Dear James, I modern historian might not either. My recollection is that Abdu'l-Baha in London is not a canonical text. We do not have the original transcripts for any of these talks and we can't really ascertain what Abdu'l-Baha actually said. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Book of Daniel fulfilled
In a message dated 12/10/2004 11:27:33 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: There is but one power which heals -- that is God. The state or condition through which the healing takes place is the confidence of the heart. By some this state is reached through pills, powders, and physicians. By others through hygiene, fasting, and prayer. By others through direct perception." (Abdu'l-Baha, Abdu'l-Baha in London, p. 95)Would "modern science" agree with this assertion? You will not find consensus in science on the topic. You will find, however, a wealth of serious scientific studies that suggest just that. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Book of Daniel fulfilled
Ron wrote: Do you see my point? Your point is understood. This non-scientific mind, however, would assert that "nothing is final." There is but one power which heals -- that is God. The state or condition through which the healing takes place is the confidence of the heart. By some this state is reached through pills, powders, and physicians. By others through hygiene, fasting, and prayer. By others through direct perception." (Abdu'l-Baha, Abdu'l-Baha in London, p. 95) Would "modern science" agree with this assertion? James __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Book of Daniel fulfilled
Hello James adn thank you for your comments, James Mock wrote: >What is a "known law"? If you had asked people 600 years ago, they would >have "proven" to you that the world is flat. > >We cannot accept things "known" today as scientific "fact." > . James, what you say is certainly ture in some instances. But the theory of the ether was disproven by a specific scientific experiment, the Michelson-Morley experiment. It is virtually impossible that this could be overturned. As an analogy, we will certainly come up with better understandings of gravity in the future, but we will not ever find that objects in the earths gravitational field fall *upwards* rather than downwards. So, if a Prophet writes about objects falling upwards due to the force fo gravity, thgen I think it is fair to say that He is speaking symbolically and not literally. Baha'u'llah, I believe, made precisely this point when He ridiculed anyone who believed that Christ rose physcially into the clouds and into the heavens. Do you see my point? Ron __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Book of Daniel fulfilled
even where they contradict known laws of nature and common sense> What is a "known law"? If you had asked people 600 years ago, they would have "proven" to you that the world is flat. We cannot accept things "known" today as scientific "fact." Mathematicians, astronomers, chemical scientists continually disprove and reject the conclusions of the ancients; nothing is fixed, nothing final; everything continually changing because human reason is progressing along new roads of investigation and arriving at new conclusions every day. In the future much that is announced and accepted as true now will be rejected and disproved. And so it will continue ad infinitum. Abdu'l-Bahá, Bahá'í World Faith, p. 252 For anyone to insist that interpretation follow "known" scientific laws of the day is as short-sighted as Baha'is who insist on a literal interpretation of a specific very. It must always be born in mind: Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, exalted be His glory, endureth for ever, thou must, likewise, believe with undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted. Bahá'u'lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, p. 175 Insistence, whether on a literal interpretation or "conformity with science", is our barrier. James __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Book of Daniel fulfilled
Hi, Ron, At 06:08 PM 12/9/2004, you wrote: >>Mark, your view that texts have no meaning seems extreme. It would also seem >>to rule out the possibility of communication, woudln't it? Yet humans do >>communicate. Don' t they?<< As I see it, we discover meaning *through* (not in) texts. The tools for discovering (different types of) meaning include textual criticism, source criticism, and meditation. For instance, there are people, let's call them linguistic realists, who believe that words are real, and that there is a one-to-one correspondence between text and meaning. However, in my view, texts are merely relative and temporal constructions of words. The meaning does not lie *in* the words but in the mind of the writer or speaker. As a result, the exegete must be willing to allow for a considerable greater degree of ambiguity than if words contained or manifested meaning. >>If I say that I want to believe in both science and religion, rather than >>just one or the other, I think those words do point to some meanings that >>exist because of history and consensus.<< Point to meanings, yes, but not contain them. Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net "Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Book of Daniel fulfilled
I want to ask questions of Brent and Mark, related to the discussions in this thread. Mark, your view that texts have no meaning seems extreme. It would also seem to rule out the possibility of communication, woudln't it? Yet humans do communicate. Don' t they? If I say that I want to believe in both science and religion, rather than just one or the other, I think those words do point to some meanings that exist because of history and consensus. The meanings that are pointed to by me (the writer) and the reader are somewhat vague, fluid and relative, but there are meanings nonetheless. Do you agree with me on this? Brent, I brought up two examples of areas where a strictly literal view of the infallibility of the Writings (in this case the Writings of Abdul Baha) leads some Baha'is to see the necessity to dis-believe in the science of evolution and quantum physics. Do you believe in the need to come up with a "Baha'i parallel evolution" and an alternative "Baha'i quantum physics"? I ask this because I am genuinely curious. I have seen public public statements by high level Baha'i individuals in the past, about their apparent requirement that good Baha'is have a strictly literal understanding of infallibility. I find this problematic but I would like your honest opinion on the two specific instances I mention above. On Dec 9, 2004, at 5:27 PM, Ronald Stephens wrote: First a quote: “”"Papal infallibility and biblical inerrancy are the two ecclesiastical versions of this human idolatry. Both papal infallibility and biblical inerrancy require widespread and unchallenged ignorance to sustain their claims to power. Both are doomed as viable alternatives for the long- range future of anyone." Bishop John Shelby Spong, Resurrection: Myth or Reality? (San Fransisco: HarperCollins, 1994), p. 99.”” It seems to me that the recent dialog between Brent Poirier and Mark Foster, and others, raises some points that are central to the dilemmna of religion in the modern world and especially, in the future. Religions can simply not demand any longer, that their adherents must abandon science and logic. One aspect of my readings of the Writings of Baha’u’llah that led me to accept the Baha’i Faith was that Baha’u’llah was the only Prophet who offered a religious faith that was explicitly compatible with science and logic, most notably in the Book of Certitude. Baha’u’llah pointed out that no religious person should have believed in literal interpretations of scripture that contradicted the known laws of nature, such as Christ rising physically from the dead or ascending physically into the heavens. It should have been obvious that these things were symbolically pointing to greater truths. So, ever since becoming a Baha’i, it has bothered me to no end to continually see and hear other Baha’is who believe that believing in strictly literal interpretations of Baha’i Writings, even where they contradict known laws of nature and common sense, is a condition of being a good Baha’i. For instance, many Baha’is believe that Abdul Baha’s comments on evolution require us to reject evolution as science knows it; many Baha’is also believe that a remark by Abdul Baha about the word “ether” require us to reject the last 100 years of quantum physics as being contrary to infallible Baha’is teachings. I do not see this kind of troublesome thinking anywhere in the Writings of Baha’u’llah, nor in the Writings of Abdul Baha. Where I do see it , over and over again, is in interpretations of selected quotes from the Writings used by individuals, including prominent Baha’is who have a high degree of reputational and status based authority, who insist that selected quotes “prove” something, or require some particular specific belief on the part of good Baha’is. I believe that this kind of thinking is contrary to the very core of the teachings of Baha’u’llah. And I believe that this kind of thinking prevents the growth of the faith. Most people are just not going to reject science for a religion. Nor should they. When a religious community rejects science for a literal understanding of scripture, they enter into superstition. I certainly do not mean to say that the Writings never mean literal things, far from it. But Baha’u’llah has given us the test of literalism; when literal reading of a passage of scripture requires a contradiction to science, then it must be interpreted symbolically. As to prophecy, religions have always re-interpreted prophecies to suit the facts, after the fact. We are no exception. Peace has not broken out as of the year 2000. No problem. We have a symbolic interpretation of those prophecies now to cover that. And that’s the way it should be. But surely we cannot predict the actual future events based on Prophecies. It just doesn’t work that way. Ron Stephens __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as:
RE: Book of Daniel fulfilled
First a quote: "Papal infallibility and biblical inerrancy are the two ecclesiastical versions of this human idolatry. Both papal infallibility and biblical inerrancy require widespread and unchallenged ignorance to sustain their claims to power. Both are doomed as viable alternatives for the long- range future of anyone." Bishop John Shelby Spong, Resurrection: Myth or Reality? (San Fransisco: HarperCollins, 1994), p. 99. It seems to me that the recent dialog between Brent Poirier and Mark Foster, and others, raises some points that are central to the dilemmna of religion in the modern world and especially, in the future. Religions can simply not demand any longer, that their adherents must abandon science and logic. One aspect of my readings of the Writings of Bahaullah that led me to accept the Bahai Faith was that Bahaullah was the only Prophet who offered a religious faith that was explicitly compatible with science and logic, most notably in the Book of Certitude. Bahaullah pointed out that no religious person should have believed in literal interpretations of scripture that contradicted the known laws of nature, such as Christ rising physically from the dead or ascending physically into the heavens. It should have been obvious that these things were symbolically pointing to greater truths. So, ever since becoming a Bahai, it has bothered me to no end to continually see and hear other Bahais who believe that believing in strictly literal interpretations of Bahai Writings, even where they contradict known laws of nature and common sense, is a condition of being a good Bahai. For instance, many Bahais believe that Abdul Bahas comments on evolution require us to reject evolution as science knows it; many Bahais also believe that a remark by Abdul Baha about the word ether require us to reject the last 100 years of quantum physics as being contrary to infallible Bahais teachings. I do not see this kind of troublesome thinking anywhere in the Writings of Bahaullah, nor in the Writings of Abdul Baha. Where I do see it , over and over again, is in interpretations of selected quotes from the Writings used by individuals, including prominent Bahais who have a high degree of reputational and status based authority, who insist that selected quotes prove something, or require some particular specific belief on the part of good Bahais. I believe that this kind of thinking is contrary to the very core of the teachings of Bahaullah. And I believe that this kind of thinking prevents the growth of the faith. Most people are just not going to reject science for a religion. Nor should they. When a religious community rejects science for a literal understanding of scripture, they enter into superstition. I certainly do not mean to say that the Writings never mean literal things, far from it. But Bahaullah has given us the test of literalism; when literal reading of a passage of scripture requires a contradiction to science, then it must be interpreted symbolically. As to prophecy, religions have always re-interpreted prophecies to suit the facts, after the fact. We are no exception. Peace has not broken out as of the year 2000. No problem. We have a symbolic interpretation of those prophecies now to cover that. And thats the way it should be. But surely we cannot predict the actual future events based on Prophecies. It just doesnt work that way. Ron Stephens __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Book of Daniel fulfilled
Hi, Gilberto, At 01:35 PM 12/9/2004, you wrote: >>But isn't there an underlying constant even if specific formulations might >>change? I think John Hick tries to unify the different religions by saying >>they are all about teaching the ego to conform to the nature or Reality or >>something like that.<< IMO, the underlying constant is the Will of God. In other words, the basis of progressive Revelation is relationship (Covenant), not ontology. To my understanding, God's Covenant is basically synonymous with the Will of God and divine love. >>Or to maybe think about it differently, even if you think that the doctrines >>can change, it's not the case that anything goes.<< What I am suggesting is that, in each Dispensation, doctrines *can* change, as can existence in general. The Prophet has absolute sovereignty. "I testify that no sooner had the First Word proceeded, through the potency of Thy will and purpose, out of His mouth, and the First Call gone forth from His lips than the whole creation was revolutionized, and all that are in the heavens and all that are on earth were stirred to the depths. Through that Word the realities of all created things were shaken, were divided, separated, scattered, combined and reunited, disclosing, in both the contingent world and the heavenly kingdom, entities of a new creation, and revealing, in the unseen realms, the signs and tokens of Thy unity and oneness." -- Baha'u'llah, Prayers and Meditations, p.295 >>I mean, if in 1000 years someone comes saying they are the next Manifestaion >>except they are preaching doctrines reminiscent of the Satanism of Anton >>LaVey or Alsteir Crowley, couldn't you say that there are some fundamental >>spiritual principles which they are opposing.<< I like Anton von LaVey and his mentor, Aleister Crowley! ;-) IMO, their views on many subjects are preferable to what I see in some versions of Christian fundamentalism. >>But what's the converse? If there are no eternal truths, then it seems like >>anything goes and religion is a big game of Simon Says where God is Simon.<< IMO, whatever God commands (causes) goes. >>The prophets would be bringing various doctrines and practices but there is >>no underlying principle. One Day, God tells us to love our neighbor. The Next >>Day, God tells us to beat old ladies and torture small animals.<< Differences between "various doctrines and practices" are, in my view, among the "clouds" referred to by Baha'u'llah in the Kitab-i-Iqan. The underlying principle is surrender to the Will of God. First, I recognize that my will may differ from the divine Will. (I acknowledge it. I don't attempt to suppress it.) Second, through an act of personal will, I can decide to turn my will over to God's Will. >>I'm not sure if I would call my self a gung ho card-carrying Platonist, but >>the Simon Says scenario really bothers me and I would want to believe that >>there is a very deep underlying consistency in spiritual and ethical >>principles which is rooted in God's nature andthe human condition and which >>isn't easily altered by changes in technology or social organization.<< I never expect to see any consistency from Prophet to Prophet. However, I am certainly willing to acknowledge such consistency when it is apparent. >>I mean if you look at Budhism, Taoism, and maybe even Confucianism, I would >>think that if they have ever been true, then they will always be true.<< From a Baha'i perspective, I would say that they reflected the Will of God when they were revealed. >>There is a real timeless quality to the principles which should be pretty >>obvious to everyone. I mean, Which passages from the Tao Te Ching even refer >>to any historical events? Which of the 4 Noble Truths of Buddhism has an >>expiration date?<< Some? All? None? I don't know, but the standard is the Baha'i Revelation. Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net "Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Book of Daniel fulfilled
On Thu, 9 Dec 2004 12:44:04 -0600, Mark Foster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> IMO, the spiritual truth which "never changes" is the Covenant, not any
> particular set of doctrines.
But isn't there an underlying constant even if specific formulations
might change? I think John Hick tries to unify the different religions
by saying they are all about teaching the ego to conform to the nature
or Reality or something like that.
Or to maybe think about it differently, even if you think that the
doctrines can change, it's not the case that anything goes. I mean, if
in 1000 years someone comes saying they are the next Manifestaion
except they are preaching doctrines reminiscent of the Satanism of
Anton LaVey or Alsteir Crowley, couldn't you say that there are some
fundamental spiritual principles which they are opposing.
> In effect, the perennial philosophy holds God captive to "truths." It is
> not God's Will which is sovereign but certain ideal forms according to which
> God supposedly operates. God is reduced to an automaton who functions
> according to a system of programming ("eternal truths"). Therefore, the
> "perennial philosophy," Traditionalist or otherwise, interpretation of
> `Abdu'l-Baha's comments is reductionist.
But what's the converse? If there are no eternal truths, then it seems
like anything goes and religion is a big game of Simon Says where God
is Simon. The prophets would be bringing various doctrines and
practices but there is no underlying principle. One Day, God tells us
to love our neighbor. The Next Day, God tells us to beat old ladies
and torture small animals.
I'm not sure if I would call my self a gung ho card-carrying
Platonist, but the Simon Says scenario really bothers me and I would
want to believe that there is a very deep underlying consistency in
spiritual and ethical principles which is rooted in God's nature and
the human condition and which isn't easily altered by changes in
technology or social organization. Is that a Form? I don't know. But I
would think that if a religion is worth its salt, it would tap into
that... consistency.. and last as long.
I would want to make the case that Islam taps into this consistency,
but I think that case is harder to make to Bahais. But I think it
should also be readily apparent from looking at the Eastern spiritual
traditions. I mean if you look at Budhism, Taoism, and maybe even
Confucianism, I would think that if they have ever been true, then
they will always be true. There is a real timeless quality to the
principles which should be pretty obvious to everyone. I mean, Which
passages from the Tao Te Ching even refer to any historical events?
Which of the 4 Noble Truths of Buddhism has an expiration date?
Peace
Gilberto
"My people are hydroponic"
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Book of Daniel fulfilled
Hi, James,
You quoted:
>>The religion of God has two aspects in this world. The spiritual (the
real)
and the formal (the outward). The formal side changes, as man changes from
age to age. The spiritual side which is the Truth, never changes. The
Prophets and Manifestations of God bring always the same teaching; at first
men cling to the Truth but after a time they disfigure it. The Truth is
distorted by man-made outward forms and material laws. The veil of substance
and worldliness is drawn across the reality of Truth.
>>'Abdu'l-Bahá, 'Abdu'l-Bahá in London, p. 56<<
IMO, the spiritual truth which "never changes" is the Covenant, not any
particular set of doctrines. The problem with the "perennial philosophy,"
interpretation of `Abdu'l-Baha's apparent views on this subject, and I will
post some more on that subject after I get home, is its Platonic realism.
It assumes that there are certain fixed essential truths which are simply
repeated by various religious or spiritual leaders.
In effect, the perennial philosophy holds God captive to "truths." It is
not God's Will which is sovereign but certain ideal forms according to which
God supposedly operates. God is reduced to an automaton who functions
according to a system of programming ("eternal truths"). Therefore, the
"perennial philosophy," Traditionalist or otherwise, interpretation of
`Abdu'l-Baha's comments is reductionist.
Regards, Mark A. Foster, Ph.D. * Professor of Sociology
Johnson County Community College, Overland Park, Kansas
Students: http://MarkFoster.org * 913-469-8500 ext. 3376
All 15 Sites: http://MarkFoster.net * Fax: 913-469-2589
Office: GEB 151-D * Hours: TTh 9:55-10:55 & 12:20-1:40
---
Outgoing mail is certified virus free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.805 / Virus Database: 547 - Release Date: 12/3/04
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Book of Daniel fulfilled
Mark wrote: IMO, the principle of Baha'i relativism establishes a Prophet as the ultimate Standard of truth in each Dispensation (even if it differs with the "truths" revealed by other Prophets). If there is, as Shoghi Effendi wrote, no absolute truth, whatever a particular Prophet designates, or names, as a truth carries authority for the duration of His Dispensation. In general, this statement gives a succinct and cogent synopsis of truth: establishes a Prophet as the ultimate Standard of truth in each Dispensation. But it should be remembered that there are multiple types of truth. The Master describes such: The religion of God has two aspects in this world. The spiritual (the real) and the formal (the outward). The formal side changes, as man changes from age to age. The spiritual side which is the Truth, never changes. The Prophets and Manifestations of God bring always the same teaching; at first men cling to the Truth but after a time they disfigure it. The Truth is distorted by man-made outward forms and material laws. The veil of substance and worldliness is drawn across the reality of Truth. Abdu'l-Bahá, Abdu'l-Bahá in London, p. 56 From a broader perspective, Bahaullah calls this realm the world of the relative and the realms of contradiction: Whereupon the clouds of the Divine Will were raised to rain upon thee the outpourings of heavenly wisdom, to divest thee of all that thou hadst acquired aforetime, to draw thee from the realms of contradiction unto the retreats of oneness, and to lead thee to the sacred streams of His Law. (Baha'u'llah, Gems of Divine Mysteries, p. 3) These statements are made in the sphere of that which is relative, because of the limitations of men. Otherwise, those personages who in a single step have passed over the world of the relative and the limited, and dwelt on the fair plane of the Absolute, and pitched their tent in the worlds of authority and command -- have burned away these relativities with a single spark Bahá'u'lláh, The Seven Valleys, p. 27 He states that the Word is made in the sphere of that which is relative BECAUSE OF THE LIMITATIONS OF MEN. In other words, were we capable, we could perceive ultimate truth. It appears that Word is, indeed, relative to the reader, but that may not be related to the nature of words themselves. Perhaps our varying spiritual capacities produces the contradictory and relative nature of this realm and, thus, influences meaning. As mentioned in a previous post, it can be asserted that every soul is at a different spot along an infinite spiritual continuum. The Word, being accessible to everyone, would, it seems logical to assume, have something for everyone .thus, the multiple meanings. From the standpoint of a spiritual continuum, the Word would, indeed, acquire meaning for the one who reads it. That is not to say that the Word has no meaning, just that its meaning is relative to the reader (and his or her spiritual state). James __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Book of Daniel fulfilled
Brent, At 03:23 AM 12/9/2004, you wrote: >>In my view, a careful reading of those passages where Shoghi Effendi speaks >>of the relativity of religious truth, he is neither speaking of moral >>relativism, nor is he saying everybody's view of the meaning of the >>Revelation is just ducky and equally valid. I suggest that an analysis of >>those passages shows that he is generally using that term as a synonym for >>Progressive Revelation.<< I agree he is referring to progressive Revelation, as in the following: "Repudiating the claim of any religion to be the final revelation of God to man, disclaiming finality for His own Revelation, Baha'u'llah inculcates the basic principle of the relativity of religious truth, the continuity of Divine Revelation, the progressiveness of religious experience." -- Shoghi Effendi, The Promised Day is Come, p.108 IMO, the principle of Baha'i relativism establishes a Prophet as the ultimate Standard of truth in each Dispensation (even if it differs with the "truths" revealed by other Prophets). If there is, as Shoghi Effendi wrote, no absolute truth, whatever a particular Prophet designates, or names, as a truth carries authority for the duration of His Dispensation. The significance of the Guardian's concept, in my view, is that Prophets may have revealed thoroughly truth statements which were, in the context of Their authorities, valid, but which are, in a previous or subsequent Prophetic context, not true. Consequently, attempts to reconcile "truths" revealed by another Prophet with "truths" revealed by Baha'u'llah may reflect a failure to appreciate the significance of this principle. Although not *all* understandings are equally valid, I think that *many* understandings, even contradictory ones, may be valid. Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net "Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Book of Daniel fulfilled
A few points: 1. In my view, a careful reading of those passages where Shoghi Effendi speaks of the relativity of religious truth, he is neither speaking of moral relativism, nor is he saying everybody's view of the meaning of the Revelation is just ducky and equally valid. I suggest that an analysis of those passages shows that he is generally using that term as a synonym for Progressive Revelation. God Passes By p. 139 The Promised Day is Come p. 108 and Introduction p. v quoting statement to UN Palestine Committee WOB 57-58 and 115 For example, it is hard for me to see how it is used in any other sense than progressive Revelation, in this statement from him: "To them will the Mashriqu'l-Adhkar symbolize the fundamental verity underlying the Baha'i Faith, that religious truth is not absolute but relative, that Divine Revelation is not final but progressive." (Baha'i Administration p. 185) 2. Dictionary and Ruhi. Please indicate who discourages the use of the dictionary in Ruhi courses. Certain tutors? The books themselves? Given that the Guardian had a well-worn dictionary, and that he not infrequently used terms in his writings and translations that I can't otherwise understand, I'd be surprised. But hey, maybe I'll be surprised. 3. One of the friends on this list quoted a reference to a statement of the Master about the meaning of one of the beasts in Revelation, but I saw no reference, e.g. no reference to a date of a memorandum from the Research Dept, no reference to a page number of a book. If one is available I'd be grateful. Thanks Brent __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Book of Daniel fulfilled
Hi, Gilberto, At 07:50 PM 12/8/2004, you wrote: >>So in no way do you use the prophecies about the Mahdi to identify the mahdi? >>You start with the axiom that the Bab was the mahdi, and THEN you interpret >>everything else in such a way to be consistent with that assumption?<< The Mahdi, the Bab, and the Primal Point are names a Person I accept as a Prophet (another name). Spiritually, the names and prophecies are only important if they increase our understanding and bring us closer to God. Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net "Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Book of Daniel fulfilled
On Wed, 08 Dec 2004 18:31:15 -0600, Mark A. Foster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Mark: > The words have no meaning, but the Prophets do. Since Mahdi has been > interpreted as a reference to the Bab, Baha'is would accept Him as such > based on the authority of the eisegete. Gilberto: > >>But then what does that even mean? What's the significance of that claim? I > >>mean, if "mahdi" doesn't mean anything, what is the status of the claim > >>that the Bab is the Mahdi? What does it mean to say the Bab is NOT the > >>Mahdi?<< Mark: > IMO, the Bab is the Mahdi because He said so. "Mahdi" is merely a name to > refer to a particular set of meanings in the Will of God. Gilberto: So in no way do you use the prophecies about the Mahdi to identify the mahdi? You start with the axiom that the Bab was the mahdi, and THEN you interpret everything else in such a way to be consistent with that assumption? Peace Gilberto "My people are hydroponic" __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Book of Daniel fulfilled
Richard, At 06:05 PM 12/8/2004, you wrote: >>Yes. I would imagine that a serving of Ruhi would not sit well after a >>healthy course of sacred cow.<< Indeed, or even after a Mandarin salad. ;-) Mark A. Foster * Portal: http://MarkFoster.net CompuServe: http://boards.M.Foster.name __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Book of Daniel fulfilled
Hi, Gilberto, At 05:48 PM 12/8/2004, you wrote: >>But how does the prophecy actually guide then?<< For instance: Baha'u'llah predicted the Most Great Peace, and Baha'is are working toward it. >>Let me give an example. I've been looking a little into Chinese divination >>and the I Ching. (without getting into too much detail, basically to use it >>you would flip coins several times and depending on the outcome you can >>basically get one of 64 messages. In fact, you really get a pair of symbols >>for each reading so in reality you can get up to 64 x 64= 4096 subtly >>different answers for each question)<< I am familiar with the coin technique (as a substitute for the traditional yarrow sticks). I practiced I Ching divination back in the late 1960s. >>Now I'm a skeptic in relation to the I Ching and the idea that mystical >>forces specifically guide the sticks or the coins to give you a particular >>reading.<< Good! ;-) >>But after looking at the I Ching, I think that the various messages are both >>general enough in application, and nuanced and detailed enough in terms of >>analysis that I can imagine that it could be a very good form of exercise in >>intuition and self-reflection to come up with questions, obtain an answer, >>meditate on how that particular answer may be relevant to your life, and then >>act accordingly.<< Of course, the I Ching is not only a fortunetelling book. It is also a guide to particular strains of Taoist and Confucian philosophies. >>Is THAT the kind of thing you mean about prophecies in general?<< In terms of the relationships between words and inspiration, yes. The difference is that I am talking about prophecy and prophetic eisegesis through divine Revelation or authoritative inspiration (like from `Abdu'l-Baha), not through personal inspiration. I wrote: IMO, a prophecy consists of inspiration (meaning), or revelation, and words. The interpretation of the prophecy likewise consists of inspiration (meaning), or revelation, and words. The words may be used by the inspired interpreter, the eisegete (such as a Prophet, the Master, or the Guardian), to point to a different inspiration (meaning) than the one intended by the writer of the prophecy. You replied: >>It seems like an interesting combination of post-modernism and a kind of >>authoritarianism.<< Foucault's social constructionism meets Ockham's divine command theory. ;-) I wrote: The words have no meaning, but the Prophets do. Since Mahdi has been interpreted as a reference to the Bab, Baha'is would accept Him as such based on the authority of the eisegete. You replied: >>But then what does that even mean? What's the significance of that claim? I >>mean, if "mahdi" doesn't mean anything, what is the status of the claim that >>the Bab is the Mahdi? What does it mean to say the Bab is NOT the Mahdi?<< IMO, the Bab is the Mahdi because He said so. "Mahdi" is merely a name to refer to a particular set of meanings in the Will of God. Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net "Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Book of Daniel fulfilled
Well, I would rather not get into a discussion of Ruhi. I just ate. ;-) Yes. I would imagine that a serving of Ruhi would not sit well after a healthy course of sacred cow. ;- } __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Book of Daniel fulfilled
Richard, At 05:46 PM 12/8/2004, you wrote: >>Which in turn may be one of the reasons why in the Ruhi classes the use of >>the dictionary is discouraged.<< That strikes me as strange (to say the least). I wonder how many people pay attention to it. Well, I would rather not get into a discussion of Ruhi. I just ate. ;-) Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net "Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Book of Daniel fulfilled
On Wed, 08 Dec 2004 15:44:10 -0600, Mark A. Foster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi, Gilberto, Hello Mark Mark: > texts, including those containing prophecies, have no inherent meaning. > The meanings are solely in the minds of the writer and the > interpreter. Gilberto: > >>This may seem like a silly question then but doesn't that perspective > >>render the whole idea of fulfilling prophecy meaningless? I mean if the > >>prophecy doesn't "mean" anything in particular then neither does the > >>fulfillment of that prophecy.<< Mark: > My point is that the Prophet means something, not the prophecy. However, I > think it may pose a challenge to conventional ways of understanding prophecy, > such as those used by William Sears, Gary Matthews, David Young, etc. Gilberto: I'm not at all familiar with the others, but I could see that for William Sears. Mark: > To my understanding, prophecy, or warning, is generally intended to prepare > people for future events, to guide them toward a certain course of action (in > light of those anticipated events), and to warn them of any possible > consequences of ignoring the prophecy. Gilberto: But how does the prophecy actually guide then? Let me give an example. I've been looking a little into Chinese divination and the I Ching. (without getting into too much detail, basically to use it you would flip coins several times and depending on the outcome you can basically get one of 64 messages. In fact, you really get a pair of symbols for each reading so in reality you can get up to 64 x 64= 4096 subtly different answers for each question) Gilberto: Now I'm a skeptic in relation to the I Ching and the idea that mystical forces specifically guide the sticks or the coins to give you a particular reading. But after looking at the I Ching, I think that the various messages are both general enough in application, and nuanced and detailed enough in terms of analysis that I can imagine that it could be a very good form of exercise in intuition and self-reflection to come up with questions, obtain an answer, meditate on how that particular answer may be relevant to your life, and then act accordingly. Gilberto: Is THAT the kind of thing you mean about prophecies in general? Mark: > IMO, a prophecy consists of inspiration (meaning), or revelation, and words. > The interpretation of the prophecy likewise consists of inspiration > (meaning), or revelation, and words. The words may be used by the inspired > interpreter, the eisegete (such as a Prophet, the Master, or the Guardian), > to point to a different inspiration (meaning) than the one intended by the > writer of the prophecy. Gilberto: It seems like an interesting combination of post-modernism and a kind of authoritarianism. Gilberto: > >>For example, unless the term "mahdi" has a concrete meaning, I might as > >>well say that my cousin is the mahdi or the nice homeless man standing on > >>the corner is the mahdi. If the texts have no meaning, then aren't > >>statements about fulfillment of prophecy unfalsifiable and meaningless?<< Mark: > The words have no meaning, but the Prophets do. Since Mahdi has been > interpreted as a reference to the Bab, Baha'is would accept Him as such based > on the authority of the eisegete. Gilberto: But then what does that even mean? What's the significance of that claim? I mean, if "mahdi" doesn't mean anything, what is the status of the claim that the Bab is the Mahdi? What does it mean to say the Bab is NOT the Mahdi? Peace Gilberto "My people are hydroponic" __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Book of Daniel fulfilled
"The texts of the Holy Books are all symbolical, needing authoritative interpretation." -- Promulgation of Universal Peace, p.220 IMO, the words symbolize the inspirations of the Holy Spirit. Which may require the conclusion, among a myriad other possible conclusions, in my opinion, that investigation through reading, prayer and meditation *must be* independent and essential to the knowledge of the meaning intended. Which in turn may be one of the reasons why in the Ruhi classes the use of the dictionary is discouraged. Richard. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Book of Daniel fulfilled
Hi, Richard, At 04:13 PM 12/8/2004, you wrote: >>Mark, your explanation may shed some light on the operation of the following >>verse. >>He it is who hath sent down to thee "the Book." Some of its signs are of >>themselves perspicuous; - these are the basis of the Book - and others are >>figurative. But they whose hearts are given to err, follow its figures, >>craving discord, craving an interpretation; yet none knoweth its >>interpretation but God >>(The Qur'an (Rodwell tr), Sura 3 - The Family of Imran)<< That reminded me of these words attributed to `Abdu'l-Baha: "The texts of the Holy Books are all symbolical, needing authoritative interpretation." -- Promulgation of Universal Peace, p.220 IMO, the words symbolize the inspirations of the Holy Spirit. Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net "Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Book of Daniel fulfilled
Mark, you wrote: The words have no meaning, but the Prophets do. Since Mahdi has been interpreted as a reference to the Bab, Baha'is would accept Him as such based on the authority of the eisegete. Mark, your explanation may shed some light on the operation of the following verse. He it is who hath sent down to thee "the Book." Some of its signs are of themselves perspicuous; - these are the basis of the Book - and others are figurative. But they whose hearts are given to err, follow its figures, craving discord, craving an interpretation; yet none knoweth its interpretation but God. And the stable in knowledge say, "We believe in it: it is all from our Lord." But none will bear this in mind, save men endued with understanding. (The Qur'an (Rodwell tr), Sura 3 - The Family of Imran) __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Book of Daniel fulfilled
Hi, Gilberto, I wrote: texts, including those containing prophecies, have no inherent meaning. The meanings are solely in the minds of the writer and the interpreter. You replied: >>This may seem like a silly question then but doesn't that perspective render >>the whole idea of fulfilling prophecy meaningless? I mean if the prophecy >>doesn't "mean" anything in particular then neither does the fulfillment of >>that prophecy.<< My point is that the Prophet means something, not the prophecy. However, I think it may pose a challenge to conventional ways of understanding prophecy, such as those used by William Sears, Gary Matthews, David Young, etc. To my understanding, prophecy, or warning, is generally intended to prepare people for future events, to guide them toward a certain course of action (in light of those anticipated events), and to warn them of any possible consequences of ignoring the prophecy. The interpretation of the prophecy is designed to demonstrate its fulfillment and to argue for the continuity of the eternal Covenant. IMO, a prophecy consists of inspiration (meaning), or revelation, and words. The interpretation of the prophecy likewise consists of inspiration (meaning), or revelation, and words. The words may be used by the inspired interpreter, the eisegete (such as a Prophet, the Master, or the Guardian), to point to a different inspiration (meaning) than the one intended by the writer of the prophecy. >>For example, unless the term "mahdi" has a concrete meaning, I might as well >>say that my cousin is the mahdi or the nice homeless man standing on the >>corner is the mahdi. If the texts have no meaning, then aren't statements >>about fulfillment of prophecy unfalsifiable and meaningless?<< The words have no meaning, but the Prophets do. Since Mahdi has been interpreted as a reference to the Bab, Baha'is would accept Him as such based on the authority of the eisegete. Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net "Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Book of Daniel fulfilled
In a message dated 12/8/2004 3:02:49 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: IMO, the words are a means to have a relationship with the author (or Author). I concur. Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Book of Daniel fulfilled
Hi, Scott, At 01:52 PM 12/8/2004, you wrote: >>I would assert that there is no meaning to or enjoyment of reading the text >>of anything unless the reader has a relationship to the words on the page. >>This is a truism whether reading "scripture" or a technical manual.<< IMO, the words are a means to have a relationship with the author (or Author). Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net "Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Book of Daniel fulfilled
On Tue, 07 Dec 2004 08:54:38 -0600, Mark A. Foster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi, Brent, > > >>Also, as Mark has pointed out, the same verse can be interpreted in more > >>than one way.<< > > Yes, that is sort of what I am saying. However, more specifically, I am > suggesting that texts, including those containing prophecies, have no > inherent meaning. The meanings are solely in the minds of the writer and the > interpreter. > This may seem like a silly question then but doesn't that perspective render the whole idea of fulfilling prophecy meaningless? I mean if the prophecy doesn't "mean" anything in particular then neither does the fulfillment of that prophecy. For example, unless the term "mahdi" has a concrete meaning, I might as well say that my cousin is the mahdi or the nice homeless man standing on the corner is the mahdi. If the texts have no meaning, then aren't statements about fulfillment of prophecy unfalsifiable and meaningless? Peace Gilberto "My people are hydroponic" __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: re: Book of Daniel fulfilled
IMO, the spiritual understandings we obtain from Sacred Texts do not come from the words themselves but from the inspirations we receive by meditating on them. That may allow some insight into: 5. O SON OF BEING! Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant. (Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words) By the way BBC 3 is discussing Edward Wilson's socio-biology at this very moment. Richard __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Book of Daniel fulfilled
In a message dated 12/8/2004 1:41:21 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I would say that all texts, as well as verbal communications, are permutations of names pointing to meaning in the mind of the writer or speaker. IMO, the spiritual understandings we obtain from Sacred Texts do not come from the words themselves but from the inspirations we receive by meditating on them. I would assert that there is no meaning to or enjoyment of reading the text of anything unless the reader has a relationship to the words on the page. This is a truism whether reading "scripture" or a technical manual. I have a very close relationship to the words of many authors totally apart from religious and spiritual material. That ability to forge a relationship between the author's words and my reading of them is what makes me an active reader. Those who cannot forge such a relationship between them and the printed word will never seek to read for any reason than a survival need to master material. This is immensely more important when reading scripture, without that relationship to the written words of the Prophet no dedication or belief can ever result. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: re: Book of Daniel fulfilled
Hi, Richard, At 01:23 PM 12/8/2004, you wrote: >>I ask: Is there, then, a relationship between the text and the reader? If >>so what is its nature? If not, then why does the reader of the text >>attribute meaning to the text itself?<< I would say that all texts, as well as verbal communications, are permutations of names pointing to meaning in the mind of the writer or speaker. IMO, the spiritual understandings we obtain from Sacred Texts do not come from the words themselves but from the inspirations we receive by meditating on them. Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net "Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: re: Book of Daniel fulfilled
Mark wrote, I am saying that texts, irrespective of whether we know the language, have no meaning. The writer of the text had a particular meaning in mind, and the reader of the text has a certain meaning in mind. Therefore, the words in those texts are simply names for the meanings which those individuals have in their minds. I ask: Is there, then, a relationship between the text and the reader? If so what is its nature? If not, then why does the reader of the text attribute meaning to the text itself? __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: : re: Book of Daniel fulfilled
Hi, James, At 09:53 AM 12/8/2004, you wrote: >>Mark, the Word has unlimited "meaning"<< To my understanding, the Word can be used to refer either to divine Revelation from the Prophet or to the Sacred Texts which are produced from that Revelation. The meanings of Revelation (the Word) are not in the Texts but in the Prophet Who produces them. Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net "Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: : re: Book of Daniel fulfilled
Mark wrote: I am saying that texts, irrespective of whether we know the language, have no meaning. Mark, the Word has unlimited "meaning" Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, exalted be His glory, endureth for ever, thou must, likewise, believe with undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted. (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 175) James __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: : re: Book of Daniel fulfilled
What do you think about this prophecy of Daniel, sure it is no a coincidence, all dates 1953,57,60,63 are relevant for the Cause. A quote from the House posted on: http://bahai-library.com/uhj/beckwith.daniel.prophecy.html - The prophecy of Daniel about the 1,335 days is not fulfilled by just one single date. Its fulfilment is, rather, a process that extends over a period of time. - The fulfilment of the prophecy coincides with the period of the Ten Year Crusade, 1953-1963, a span of time that includes 1953 (the end of the hundred years whose significance is unclear), 1957, 1960, and 1963. "...religious truth is not absolute but relative..." Shoghi EffendiDo You Yahoo!? Todo lo que quieres saber de Estados Unidos, América Latina y el resto del Mundo. Visíta Yahoo! Noticias. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
: re: Book of Daniel fulfilled
Hi, Tim, I wrote: >>>texts, including those containing prophecies, have no inherent meaning. The >>>meanings are solely in the minds of the writer and the interpreter. You asked: >>Do you say this because texts are nothing more than lines on paper, or pixels >>on a screen? If I saw a Chinese text, it would have no meaning at all for >>me, because I don't know that language. Is that the kind of idea you are >>getting at?<< It took me a while, but, over the last few years, I have come around to some version of nominalism (though I don't know how close it is to Susan's). I am saying that texts, irrespective of whether we know the language, have no meaning. The writer of the text had a particular meaning in mind, and the reader of the text has a certain meaning in mind. Therefore, the words in those texts are simply names for the meanings which those individuals have in their minds. Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net "Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
: re: Book of Daniel fulfilled
Hi Mark, >texts, including those containing prophecies, have no inherent meaning. The meanings are solely in the minds of the writer and the interpreter.< Mark, Do you say this because texts are nothing more than lines on paper, or pixels on a screen? If I saw a Chinese text, it would have no meaning at all for me, because I don't know that language. Is that the kind of idea you are getting at? Tim Nolan__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
re: Book of Daniel fulfilled
Hi, Brent, >>Also, as Mark has pointed out, the same verse can be interpreted in more than >>one way.<< Yes, that is sort of what I am saying. However, more specifically, I am suggesting that texts, including those containing prophecies, have no inherent meaning. The meanings are solely in the minds of the writer and the interpreter. The issue I would consider would center around the relationships, if any, between authorial intent (meaning) and eisegetical intent (meaning). IMO, the connection between these two intentionalities is divine inspiration, whether received by the writer of the prophecy or by the eisegete (such as `Abdu'l-Baha.) If God is the source of that inspiration, He can choose to associate a new, and perhaps even thoroughly different, set of ideas with a text, i.e., ones which were not in the mind of the author. Therefore, the words in the prophecy become merely names for the distinctive inspirations given to the author and the interpreter. Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net "Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Book of Daniel fulfilled
In a message dated 12/7/2004 2:16:42 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The Master reportedly told a pilgrim in 1912 that when he saw Adrianople encircled by armies, that would be a sign that war is near. I understood this to mean that because Baha'u'llah was in Adrianople, this city was significant. So maybe that incident is in all of the symbolic language in Daniel. Adrianople was indeed circled by armies IN 1912. That is the date of the Balkan War and Adrianople is just across the straits on the European side. The Balkans had multiple armies involved in that prelude to the Great War of 1914-1918 - including Italians and Turks. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
re: Book of Daniel fulfilled
http://bahai-library.com/?file=uhj_interpretation_biblical_verses.html I found this quote, regards, Hasan "You have asked about the meaning of the "four beasts" referred to in Revelations, Ch. 4. Abdu'l-Bahá in a Tablet has given an explanation for the reference to the "beast" mentioned in Revelations 13:18, saying that the numerical value given to the beast in that passage referred to the date of the year, i.e. 666 A.D., when the Umayyad ruler arose. This is obviously a reference to Mu'áwíyih, the Umayyad Caliph who opposed the Imamate. He speaks further on this subject in "Some Answered Questions", Chapter XI."Sand1844 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Allah'u'Abha Brent, Below is interesting. Where did you learn this fact about "beasts" in prophecy. It makes sense. Sandy Pauer Fort Collins, CO As far as WWI being predicted in Daniel, I suppose that the references to the various "beasts" could well refer to the countries in that war; "beasts" in prophecy generally refer to nations. Likewise, there are many references in Daniel to kings warring. But I know of no authorized interpretations of these verses in Baha'i literature. "...religious truth is not absolute but relative..." Shoghi EffendiDo You Yahoo!? Todo lo que quieres saber de Estados Unidos, América Latina y el resto del Mundo. Visíta Yahoo! Noticias. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
re: Book of Daniel fulfilled
Allah'u'Abha Brent, Below is interesting. Where did you learn this fact about "beasts" in prophecy. It makes sense. Sandy Pauer Fort Collins, CO As far as WWI being predicted in Daniel, I suppose that the references to the various "beasts" could well refer to the countries in that war; "beasts" in prophecy generally refer to nations. Likewise, there are many references in Daniel to kings warring. But I know of no authorized interpretations of these verses in Baha'i literature. Brent Poirier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I don't think that the Master meant that every prophecy in the Book of Daniel would be fulfilled shortly after He made this statement.First of all, if memory serves correctly, He was speaking of an interview He gave in a newspaper, the San Francisco Bulletin. There are two interviews in the month of __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
re: Book of Daniel fulfilled
I don't think that the Master meant that every prophecy in the Book of Daniel would be fulfilled shortly after He made this statement. First of all, if memory serves correctly, He was speaking of an interview He gave in a newspaper, the San Francisco Bulletin. There are two interviews in the month of October 1912 in that newspaper, but neither mentions the Book of Daniel or Book of Revelation; so the journalist edited them out. Secondly, in Some Answered Questions the Master interpreted certain prophecies in the Book of Daniel as foretelling the date of the crucifixion of Christ, the date of the Declaration of the Bab, and the date of the Declaration of Baha'u'llah. So there are verses in Daniel that were fulfilled thousands of years prior to WWI. Also, as Mark has pointed out, the same verse can be interpreted in more than one way. It is true that the Master and the Guardian both interpreted Daniel 12:12 as referring to 1963. There is an interesting and lengthy memorandum from the Research Department on this subject at www.bahai-library.com -- do a search for "Daniel" and you'll find it. Also, in my personal view, the prophecy that "he who waits and comes to 1335" can mean Shoghi Effendi. The Master and the Guardian both give one interpretation of 1335 as solar years from the Hegira 622 + 1335 = 1957. The verse says "blessed is he who waits". Strong's Concordance gives an alternate translation for "waits" --- "longs". So the verse now reads "Blessed is he who longs and comes to 1957". "He who longs" is the English translation of the Arabic word "Shoghi". Just my personal view. It is consistent with the other interpretations of Daniel, in that Daniel foreshadows the dates of the Declarations of the Bab and Baha'u'llah; and the date of the death of Christ; so giving the date of the death of the Guardian fits. Also, we already know that Shoghi Effendi is of Biblical proportions, because the Master interprets a verse in Isaiah as referring to him. As far as WWI being predicted in Daniel, I suppose that the references to the various "beasts" could well refer to the countries in that war; "beasts" in prophecy generally refer to nations. Likewise, there are many references in Daniel to kings warring. But I know of no authorized interpretations of these verses in Baha'i literature. The Master reportedly told a pilgrim in 1912 that when he saw Adrianople encircled by armies, that would be a sign that war is near. I understood this to mean that because Baha'u'llah was in Adrianople, this city was significant. So maybe that incident is in all of the symbolic language in Daniel. Brent __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Book of Daniel fulfilled
Larry, At 08:25 AM 12/6/2004, you wrote: >>There is probably a simple explanation for this but it is escaping me.<< IMO, the most basic explanation is that prophecies do not "mean" anything. `Abdu'l-Baha meant one thing in one place and something else in another place. His different interpretations (eisegeses) of those texts reflected the intentions, or wills, in His mind. Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net "Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Book of Daniel fulfilled
Dear Friends, On page 23 in 'Abdul-Baha's Tablets of the Divine Plan, 'Abdul-Baha says,"I said plainly that the continent of Europe had become like unto an arsenal and its conflagration was dependent upon one spark, and that in the coming years, or within two years, all that which is recorded in the Revelation of John and the Book of Daniel would become fulfilled and come to pass." I am trying to understand the meaning of Dan. 12:12 in this context. Dan. 12:12, "Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days." Was not the 1335 years fulfilled in 1963 with the establishment of the Universal House of Justice? How does this fulfillment of prophecy relate to the conflagration in Europe - "in the coming years"? I seem to be misreading 'Abdul-Baha's statement which appears to imply that the book of Daniel and the book of Revelation would be fulfilled around World War I. There is probably a simple explanation for this but it is escaping me. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
