Re: First Person Grammar
The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Feb 15, 2013, at 12:51 21PM, Hasan Elías wrote: > Do you know where is that passage, please? No. I think it was mentioned in passing during a discussion several years ago. > > Does this refers to any kind of scientific proof? I don't believe so. > > > >I have heard that there is a passage in Persian that can be interpreted to > >mean that only during the day of the second >Manifestation after Baha'u'llah > > will there be no excuse for not believing. > He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-688594-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: First Person Grammar
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Hi Don, Do you know where is that passage, please? Does this refers to any kind of scientific proof? >I have heard that there is a passage in Persian that can be interpreted to >mean that only during the day of the second >Manifestation after Baha'u'llah >will there be no excuse for not believing. Don C On Feb 10, 2013, at 1:36 57PM, Stephen Kent Gray wrote: I have seen Baha'i blogs where a sense 3 usage of Baha'ullah's writings combined with promoting independent investigation of truth leads to imply that every man, woman, and child in the world should and must become Baha'i because Baha'ullah says so. --- It doesn't matter whether the sun shines if you never go outside. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-688586-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: First Person Grammar
The Baha'i Studies Listserv 2:126 And when Abraham prayed: My Lord! Make this a region of security and bestow upon its people fruits, such of them as believe in Allah and the Last Day, He answered: As for him who disbelieveth, I shall leave him in contentment for a while, then I shall compel him to the doom of Fire - a hapless journey's end! 2:127 And when Abraham and Ishmael were raising the foundations of the House, (Abraham prayed): Our Lord! Accept from us (this duty). Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Hearer, the Knower. 2:128 Our Lord! And make us submissive unto Thee and of our seed a nation submissive unto Thee, and show us our ways of worship, and relent toward us. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Relenting, the Merciful. 2:129 Our Lord! And raise up in their midst a messenger from among them who shall recite unto them Thy revelations, and shall instruct them in the Scripture and in wisdom and shall make them grow. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Mighty, Wise. 2:130 And who forsaketh the religion of Abraham save him who befooleth himself? Verily We chose him in the world, and lo! in the Hereafter he is among the righteous. 2:131 When his Lord said unto him: Surrender! he said: I have surrendered to the Lord of the Worlds. 2:132 The same did Abraham enjoin upon his sons, and also Jacob, (saying): O my sons! Lo! Allah hath chosen for you the (true) religion; therefore die not save as men who have surrendered (unto Him). 2:133 Or were ye present when death came to Jacob, when he said unto his sons: What will ye worship after me ? They said: We shall worship thy God, the God of thy fathers, Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac, One God, and unto Him we have surrendered. 2:134 Those are a people who have passed away. Theirs is that which they earned, and yours is that which ye earn. And ye will not be asked of what they used to do. 2:135 And they say: Be Jews or Christians, then ye will be rightly guided. Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Nay, but (we follow) the religion of Abraham, the upright, and he was not of the idolaters. 2:136 Say (O Muslims): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes, and that which Moses and Jesus received, and that which the prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered. 2:137 And if they believe in the like of that which ye believe, then are they rightly guided. But if they turn away, then are they in schism, and Allah will suffice thee (for defence) against them. He is the Hearer, the Knower. 2:138 (We take our) colour from Allah, and who is better than Allah at colouring. We are His worshippers. 2:139 Say (unto the People of the Scripture): Dispute ye with us concerning Allah when He is our Lord and your Lord ? Ours are our works and yours your works. We look to Him alone. 2:140 Or say ye that Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes were Jews or Christians ? Say: Do ye know best, or doth Allah ? And who is more unjust than he who hideth a testimony which he hath received from Allah ? Allah is not unaware of what ye do. 2:141 Those are a people who have passed away; theirs is that which they earned and yours that which ye earn. And ye will not be asked of what they used to do. The same, but Muhammad Marmaduke Pickthall translation From: Gary Selchert To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 7:17 PM Subject: Re: First Person Grammar The Baha'i Studies ListservStephen: Of course that is true. Any true and faithful follower of any of the traditions initiated by God which you have mentioned can, in one sense, be said to be a true and faithful follower of the underlying Eternal Faith of God (even though perhaps in a very confused and misguided way), and therefore in some (certainly much more obscure sense) a faithful follower of every other tradition. I admit to being confused about how it fits together sometimes. The Qur'an certainly tells of the true followers of Prophets before Muhammad being Muslims, while contending that devisions between them spring from "joining gods with Allah." In that sense, everyone will be Muslim, recognizing the illusoriness of human interpretations. cf. The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali tr), Surah 2 The Cow 126. And remember Abraham said: "My Lord, make this a City of Peace, and feed its people with fruits, such of them as believe in Allah and the Last Day." He said: "(Yea), and such as reject faith, for a while will I grant them their pleasure, but will soon drive them to the torment of fire, an evil destination (indeed)!" 127. And remember Abraham and Isma'il raised the foundations of the House (with this prayer): "Our Lord!
Re: First Person Grammar
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Stephen: Of course that is true. Any true and faithful follower of any of the traditions initiated by God which you have mentioned can, in one sense, be said to be a true and faithful follower of the underlying Eternal Faith of God (even though perhaps in a very confused and misguided way), and therefore in some (certainly much more obscure sense) a faithful follower of every other tradition. I admit to being confused about how it fits together sometimes. The Qur'an certainly tells of the true followers of Prophets before Muhammad being Muslims, while contending that devisions between them spring from "joining gods with Allah." In that sense, everyone will be Muslim, recognizing the illusoriness of human interpretations. cf. The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali tr), Surah 2 The Cow 126. And remember Abraham said: "My Lord, make this a City of Peace, and feed its people with fruits, such of them as believe in Allah and the Last Day." He said: "(Yea), and such as reject faith, for a while will I grant them their pleasure, but will soon drive them to the torment of fire, an evil destination (indeed)!" 127. And remember Abraham and Isma'il raised the foundations of the House (with this prayer): "Our Lord! accept (this service) from us, for thou art the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing. 128. "Our Lord! make of us Muslims, bowing to Thy (Will), and of our progeny a people Muslim, bowing to Thy (Will), and show us our places for the celebration of (due) rites; and turn unto us (in mercy); for Thou art the Oft-Returning, Most-Merciful. 129. "Our Lord! send amongst them a Messenger of their own, who shall rehearse Thy Signs to them and instruct them in Scripture and Wisdom, and sanctify them; for Thou art the Exalted in Might, the Wise." 130. And who turns away from the religion of Abraham but such as debase their souls with folly? Him We chose and rendered pure in this world: and he will be in the Hereafter in the ranks of the righteous. 131. Behold! his Lord said to him: "Bow (thy will to me)" He said: "I bow (my will) to the Lord and Cherisher of the universe." 132. And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "O my sons! Allah hath chosen the faith for you; then die not except in the faith of Islam." 133. Were ye witnesses when death appeared before Jacob? Behold, he said to his sons: "What will ye worship after me?" They said: "We shall worship thy God and the God of thy fathers, of Abraham, Isma'il, and Isaac, the one (true) God, to Him we bow (in Islam)." 134. That was a People that hath passed away. They shall reap the fruit of what they did, and ye of what ye do! of their merits there is no question in your case! 135. They say: "Become Jews or Christians if ye would be guided (to salvation)." Say thou: "Nay! (I would rather) the religion of Abraham the true, and he joined not gods with Allah." 136. Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus and that given to (all) Prophets from their Lord, we make no difference between one and another of them, and we bow to Allah (in Islam)." 137. So if they believe as ye believe, they are indeed on the right path; but if they turn back, it is they who are in schism; but Allah will suffice thee as against them, and He is the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing. 138. (Our religion is) the baptism of Allah; and who can baptize better than Allah? and it is He whom we worship. 139. Say: Will ye dispute with us about Allah, seeing that He is our Lord and your Lord; that we are responsible for our doings and ye for yours; and that we are sincere (in our faith) in Him? 140. Or do ye say that Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes were Jews or Christians? Say: Do ye know better than Allah? Ah! who is more unjust than those who conceal the testimony they have from Allah? But Allah is not unmindful of what ye do! 141. That was a people that hath passed away. They shall reap the fruit of what they did, and ye of what ye do! Of their merits there is no question in your case. -Original Message- From: Stephen Kent Gray To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Mon, Feb 11, 2013 4:45 pm Subject: Re: First Person Grammar The Baha'i Studies Listserv Also, isn't there a sura in the Quran that could be interpreted as a prophesy of the whole world becoming Muslim? Sura 110 Al-Nasr Divine Help, Divine Support, Divine Victory, Divine Succor 110:1 When Allah's succour and the triumph cometh 110:2 And thou seest mankind entering the religion of Allah in troops, 110:3 Then hymn the praises of thy Lord, and seek forgiveness of Him. Lo! He is ever ready to show mercy. The Meaning of the G
Re: First Person Grammar
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Also, isn't there a sura in the Quran that could be interpreted as a prophesy of the whole world becoming Muslim? Sura 110 Al-Nasr Divine Help, Divine Support, Divine Victory, Divine Succor 110:1 When Allah's succour and the triumph cometh 110:2 And thou seest mankind entering the religion of Allah in troops, 110:3 Then hymn the praises of thy Lord, and seek forgiveness of Him. Lo! He is ever ready to show mercy. The Meaning of the Glorious Quran by Muhammad Marmaduke Pickthall Sent from my iPad On Feb 11, 2013, at 17:27, Gary Selchert wrote: > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > Stephen: > > I think you are absolutely right. Through the ages vagueness has been a > fundamental aspect of prophecy. Lack of vagueness would imply a straight-line > deterministic future. Vaguness implies an open-ended cloud of possibilities, > shaped and sharpened by several billion free minds. The term "believer" is > indeed vague. Even in the brief history of the Baha'i movement, believers > have sometimes had the freedom to maintain membership in other churches and > communities and sometimes not. The current emphasis on spiritual community > building encourages interested parties to participate in Baha'i activities > without asking in any way that they abandon previous connections. As you say, > nothing in the prophecy mentions formal conversion. > Outside of the authorized interpretations of 'Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi, > I feel that most attempts to sharpen the edges of prophecy reflect only the > pscho-social needs of the individuals and communities which generate them, > not the realities of God's plans. Blggers often reflect only their own goofy > opinions. Personally, I have enough goofy opinions of my own without sitting > at their feet. > > Oh! I almost forgot! We always gotta remember what Baha'u'llah and > 'Abdu'l-Baha said about every saying having multiple meanings. I think it is > perfectly cool to look at every verse and every Hidden Word as participating > to some extent in all three senses, in keeping with the sacred vagueness > which underlies all teachings of the fundamental oneness of religion when > confronted with the messy details of religion in the physical world which you > have presented. > > Gary > > > > > -Original Message- > From: Stephen Kent Gray > To: Baha'i Studies > Sent: Mon, Feb 11, 2013 6:51 am > Subject: Re: First Person Grammar > > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > These prophecies usage of vague wording doesn't specify conversion to the > Baha'i Faith. Belief in it's truth may increase, but that may result from an > increase in inclusivism/pluralism, people who believe that religion other > than their own are true as well as their own. There is nothing in the > prophecy that mentions formal conversion. > > The Gleanings quote is even vaguer. It just say everyone will be a believer, > but it doesn't specify them as Baha'is. It may refer to a world full of Jews, > Christians, Muslims, Bayanis (Babis), Baha'is, Zoroastrians, Hindus, and > Buddhists who all believe in the mutual validity of each other religion. > > Does the term believer mean Baha'i exclusively? Does the term faith mean > Baha'i Faith exclusively? Does the term cause exclusively mean Baha'i Faith? > > You're still assigning a sense 3 rather than a sense 2 meaning to the > prophecies. Believer means Jew, Christian, Muslim, Bayani (Babi), Baha'i, > Zoroastrian, Hindu, and Buddhist. Faith and cause > mean Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Bayaniism (Babiism), Baha'i Faith, > Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, and Buddhism. None of the prophecies in uncertain > terms says the Baha'i Faith will grow to be everyone one in the world. They > say the vague term's like God's Faith, God's Cause, Belief will grow to > contain everyone in the world. > > Sent from my iPad > > On Feb 11, 2013, at 1:21, Gary Selchert wrote: > >> The Baha'i Studies Listserv >> We should be clear about what has actually been said: >> >> ‘Abdu’l-Bahá says in Promulgation of Universal Peace, pp. 429-430: “… my >> purpose is to warn and strengthen you against accusations, criticisms, >> revilings, and derision in newspaper articles or other publications. Be not >> disturbed by them; they are the very confirmation of the cause, the very >> source of upbuilding to the movement. May God confirm the day when a score >> of ministers of the churches may arise and with bared heads cry at the top >> of their voices that the Bahá’ís are misg
Re: First Person Grammar
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Stephen: I think you are absolutely right. Through the ages vagueness has been a fundamental aspect of prophecy. Lack of vagueness would imply a straight-line deterministic future. Vaguness implies an open-ended cloud of possibilities, shaped and sharpened by several billion free minds. The term "believer" is indeed vague. Even in the brief history of the Baha'i movement, believers have sometimes had the freedom to maintain membership in other churches and communities and sometimes not. The current emphasis on spiritual community building encourages interested parties to participate in Baha'i activities without asking in any way that they abandon previous connections. As you say, nothing in the prophecy mentions formal conversion. Outside of the authorized interpretations of 'Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi, I feel that most attempts to sharpen the edges of prophecy reflect only the pscho-social needs of the individuals and communities which generate them, not the realities of God's plans. Blggers often reflect only their own goofy opinions. Personally, I have enough goofy opinions of my own without sitting at their feet. Oh! I almost forgot! We always gotta remember what Baha'u'llah and 'Abdu'l-Baha said about every saying having multiple meanings. I think it is perfectly cool to look at every verse and every Hidden Word as participating to some extent in all three senses, in keeping with the sacred vagueness which underlies all teachings of the fundamental oneness of religion when confronted with the messy details of religion in the physical world which you have presented. Gary -Original Message- From: Stephen Kent Gray To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Mon, Feb 11, 2013 6:51 am Subject: Re: First Person Grammar The Baha'i Studies Listserv These prophecies usage of vague wording doesn't specify conversion to the Baha'i Faith. Belief in it's truth may increase, but that may result from an increase in inclusivism/pluralism, people who believe that religion other than their own are true as well as their own. There is nothing in the prophecy that mentions formal conversion. The Gleanings quote is even vaguer. It just say everyone will be a believer, but it doesn't specify them as Baha'is. It may refer to a world full of Jews, Christians, Muslims, Bayanis (Babis), Baha'is, Zoroastrians, Hindus, and Buddhists who all believe in the mutual validity of each other religion. Does the term believer mean Baha'i exclusively? Does the term faith mean Baha'i Faith exclusively? Does the term cause exclusively mean Baha'i Faith? You're still assigning a sense 3 rather than a sense 2 meaning to the prophecies. Believer means Jew, Christian, Muslim, Bayani (Babi), Baha'i, Zoroastrian, Hindu, and Buddhist. Faith and cause mean Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Bayaniism (Babiism), Baha'i Faith, Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, and Buddhism. None of the prophecies in uncertain terms says the Baha'i Faith will grow to be everyone one in the world. They say the vague term's like God's Faith, God's Cause, Belief will grow to contain everyone in the world. Sent from my iPad On Feb 11, 2013, at 1:21, Gary Selchert wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv We should be clear about what has actually been said: ‘Abdu’l-Bahá says in Promulgation of Universal Peace, pp. 429-430: “… my purpose isto warn and strengthen you against accusations, criticisms, revilings, andderision in newspaper articles or other publications. Be not disturbed by them;they are the very confirmation of the cause, the very source of upbuilding tothe movement. May God confirm the day when a score of ministers of the churchesmay arise and with bared heads cry at the top of their voices that the Bahá’ísare misguided. I would like to see that day, for that is the time when the Cause of God will spread. Bahá’u’lláhhas pronounced such as these couriers of the Cause. They will proclaim from thepulpits that the Bahá’ís are fools, that they are a wicked and unrighteouspeople, but be ye steadfast and unwavering in the Cause of God. They willspread the message of Bahá’u’lláh.” Baha’u’llah says in Gleanings CL: "Whenthe victory arriveth, every man shall profess himself as believer and shallhasten to the shelter of God’s Faith. Happy are they who in the days ofworld-encompassing trials have stood fast in the Cause and refused to swervefrom its truth." He certainly doesn't say that has to become a Baha'i, either to be a good person now or a happy person in the next life. He simply says that at some point...who knows, maybe 1,000,000 years from now...everyone will conclude that his words were good and right and beneficial and that he was sent as a true me
Re: First Person Grammar
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Stephen, you wrote: That's still vague. One, it assumes only the Baha'i Faith will be exclusively successful. Two, it assumes all other religions will have failed. My response: Do you realize that all religious systems have already failed? Have you read the letters of Shoghi Effendi?"That which the Lord hath ordained as the sovereign remedy and mightiest instrument for the healing of all the world is the union of all its peoples in one universal Cause, one common Faith." Also: "Soon will the present day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead". You wrote: Three, it assumes a superiority of the Baha'i Faith over all other religions. Four, it assumes people recognizing it a superior. Five, that superiority leading to envy and then attack. Six, the backlash thereof will lead to mass conversions. My response: Past religions are inadequate to current world issues, it is not about superiority. I believe that in the future the believers of other religions will see this attacks as futile and then will start to investigate the truth of the Bahá'í Faith. You wrote: You assume that the Baha'i Faith will cease to be an obscure religion. What is your definition of success? At what threshold will it reach for the process to go through? My response: You made a loaded question here assuming that the Bahá'í Faith is/were at some point "obscure". The Bahá'í Faith is not and has never been obscure, I don't think you realize that the current Administrative Order is the seed of Bahá'u'lláh's World Order. Best, Hasan De: Stephen Gray Para: Baha'i Studies Enviado: Lunes, 11 de febrero, 2013 12:53 P.M. Asunto: Re: First Person Grammar The Baha'i Studies Listserv That's still vague. One, it assumes only the Baha'i Faith will be exclusively successful. Two, it assumes all other religions will have failed. Three, it assumes a superiority of the Baha'i Faith over all other religions. Four, it assumes people recognizing it a superior. Five, that superiority leading to envy and then attack. Six, the backlash thereof will lead to mass conversions. You assume that the Baha'i Faith will cease to be an obscure religion. What is your definition of success? At what threshold will it reach for the process to go through? ____________ From: Hasan Elías To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 10:49 AM Subject: Re: First Person Grammar The Baha'i Studies Listserv Hi Stephen, What I meant by "good" is that the World Order of Bahá'u'lláh will be successful in a broken world. So the leaders of religions/denominations will attack the Bahá'í Faith, this will lead to investigation of the truth and then mass conversion. Shoghi Effendi wrote: To the general character, the implications and features of this world commonwealth, destined to emerge, sooner or later, out of the carnage, agony, and havoc of this great world convulsion, I have already referred in my previous communications. Suffice it to say that this consummation will, by its very nature, be a gradual process, and must, as Bahá’u’lláh has Himself anticipated, lead at first to the establishment of that Lesser Peace which the nations of the earth, as yet unconscious of His Revelation and yet unwittingly enforcing the general principles which He has enunciated, will themselves establish. This momentous and historic step, involving the reconstruction of mankind, as the result of the universal recognition of its oneness and wholeness, will bring in its wake the spiritualization of the masses, consequent to the recognition of the character, and the acknowledgment of the claims, of the Faith of Bahá’u’lláh—the essential condition to that ultimate fusion of all races, creeds, classes, and nations which must signalize the emergence of His New World Order. Then will the coming of age of the entire human race be proclaimed and celebrated by all the peoples and nations of the earth. Then will the banner of the Most Great Peace be hoisted. Then will the worldwide sovereignty of Bahá’u’lláh—the Establisher of the Kingdom of the Father foretold by the Son, and anticipated by the Prophets of God before Him and after Him—be recognized, acclaimed, and firmly established. Then will a world civilization be born, flourish, and perpetuate itself, a civilization with a fullness of life such as the world has never seen nor can as yet conceive. Then will the Everlasting Covenant be fulfilled in its completeness. Then will the promise enshrined in all the Books of God be redeemed, and all the prophecies uttered by the Prophets of old come to pass, and the vision of seers and poets be realized. Then will the planet, galvanized through the universal belief of its dwel
Re: First Person Grammar
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Stephen, Well we do assume that Baha'u'llah's revelation reflects God's will for today. That may well be interpreted as saying our religion is superior. I don't know any way around that which would not make the Baha'i Faith entirely irrelevant. We do not presume that other religions will cease to be, although I think there is a presumption that the day will come when Baha'is are in the majority. Personally, I think that day is pretty far off and by that I mean hundreds of years into the future.As for why we will be attacked, I would not assume it is due to envy but merely to the fact we are growing and therefore presumed to be a threat. But persecution always leads to the persecutor looking bad and public sympathy supporting the victims. warmest, Susan On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 11:53 AM, Stephen Gray wrote: > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > > That's still vague. One, it assumes only the Baha'i Faith will be > exclusively successful. Two, it assumes all other religions will have > failed. Three, it assumes a superiority of the Baha'i Faith over all other > religions. Four, it assumes people recognizing it a superior. Five, that > superiority leading to envy and then attack. Six, the backlash thereof will > lead to mass conversions. > > You assume that the Baha'i Faith will cease to be an obscure religion. What > is your definition of success? At what threshold will it reach for the > process to go through? > > ________ > From: Hasan Elías > To: Baha'i Studies > Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 10:49 AM > Subject: Re: First Person Grammar > > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > > Hi Stephen, > > What I meant by "good" is that the World Order of Bahá'u'lláh will be > successful in a broken world. So the leaders of religions/denominations will > attack the Bahá'í Faith, this will lead to investigation of the truth and > then mass conversion. > > > Shoghi Effendi wrote: > > To the general character, the implications and features of this world > commonwealth, destined to emerge, sooner or later, out of the carnage, > agony, and havoc of this great world convulsion, I have already referred in > my previous communications. Suffice it to say that this consummation will, > by its very nature, be a gradual process, and must, as Bahá’u’lláh has > Himself anticipated, lead at first to the establishment of that Lesser Peace > which the nations of the earth, as yet unconscious of His Revelation and yet > unwittingly enforcing the general principles which He has enunciated, will > themselves establish. This momentous and historic step, involving the > reconstruction of mankind, as the result of the universal recognition of its > oneness and wholeness, will bring in its wake the spiritualization of the > masses, consequent to the recognition of the character, and the > acknowledgment of the claims, of the Faith of Bahá’u’lláh—the essential > condition to that ultimate fusion of all races, creeds, classes, and nations > which must signalize the emergence of His New World Order. > Then will the coming of age of the entire human race be proclaimed and > celebrated by all the peoples and nations of the earth. Then will the banner > of the Most Great Peace be hoisted. Then will the worldwide sovereignty of > Bahá’u’lláh—the Establisher of the Kingdom of the Father foretold by the > Son, and anticipated by the Prophets of God before Him and after Him—be > recognized, acclaimed, and firmly established. Then will a world > civilization be born, flourish, and perpetuate itself, a civilization with a > fullness of life such as the world has never seen nor can as yet conceive. > Then will the Everlasting Covenant be fulfilled in its completeness. Then > will the promise enshrined in all the Books of God be redeemed, and all the > prophecies uttered by the Prophets of old come to pass, and the vision of > seers and poets be realized. Then will the planet, galvanized through the > universal belief of its dwellers in one God, and their allegiance to one > common Revelation, mirror, within the limitations imposed upon it, the > effulgent glories of the sovereignty of Bahá’u’lláh, shining in the > plenitude of its splendor in the Abhá Paradise, and be made the footstool of > His Throne on high, and acclaimed as the earthly heaven, capable of > fulfilling that ineffable destiny fixed for it, from time immemorial, by the > love and wisdom of its Creator. > Not ours, puny mortals that we are, to attempt, at so critical a stage in > the long and checkered history of mankind, to arrive at a precise and > satisfactory understanding of the steps which must successively lead a > bleeding hum
Re: First Person Grammar
The Baha'i Studies Listserv That's still vague. One, it assumes only the Baha'i Faith will be exclusively successful. Two, it assumes all other religions will have failed. Three, it assumes a superiority of the Baha'i Faith over all other religions. Four, it assumes people recognizing it a superior. Five, that superiority leading to envy and then attack. Six, the backlash thereof will lead to mass conversions. You assume that the Baha'i Faith will cease to be an obscure religion. What is your definition of success? At what threshold will it reach for the process to go through? From: Hasan Elías To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 10:49 AM Subject: Re: First Person Grammar The Baha'i Studies Listserv Hi Stephen, What I meant by "good" is that the World Order of Bahá'u'lláh will be successful in a broken world. So the leaders of religions/denominations will attack the Bahá'í Faith, this will lead to investigation of the truth and then mass conversion. Shoghi Effendi wrote: To the general character, the implications and features of this world commonwealth, destined to emerge, sooner or later, out of the carnage, agony, and havoc of this great world convulsion, I have already referred in my previous communications. Suffice it to say that this consummation will, by its very nature, be a gradual process, and must, as Bahá’u’lláh has Himself anticipated, lead at first to the establishment of that Lesser Peace which the nations of the earth, as yet unconscious of His Revelation and yet unwittingly enforcing the general principles which He has enunciated, will themselves establish. This momentous and historic step, involving the reconstruction of mankind, as the result of the universal recognition of its oneness and wholeness, will bring in its wake the spiritualization of the masses, consequent to the recognition of the character, and the acknowledgment of the claims, of the Faith of Bahá’u’lláh—the essential condition to that ultimate fusion of all races, creeds, classes, and nations which must signalize the emergence of His New World Order. Then will the coming of age of the entire human race be proclaimed and celebrated by all the peoples and nations of the earth. Then will the banner of the Most Great Peace be hoisted. Then will the worldwide sovereignty of Bahá’u’lláh—the Establisher of the Kingdom of the Father foretold by the Son, and anticipated by the Prophets of God before Him and after Him—be recognized, acclaimed, and firmly established. Then will a world civilization be born, flourish, and perpetuate itself, a civilization with a fullness of life such as the world has never seen nor can as yet conceive. Then will the Everlasting Covenant be fulfilled in its completeness. Then will the promise enshrined in all the Books of God be redeemed, and all the prophecies uttered by the Prophets of old come to pass, and the vision of seers and poets be realized. Then will the planet, galvanized through the universal belief of its dwellers in one God, and their allegiance to one common Revelation, mirror, within the limitations imposed upon it, the effulgent glories of the sovereignty of Bahá’u’lláh, shining in the plenitude of its splendor in the Abhá Paradise, and be made the footstool of His Throne on high, and acclaimed as the earthly heaven, capable of fulfilling that ineffable destiny fixed for it, from time immemorial, by the love and wisdom of its Creator. Not ours, puny mortals that we are, to attempt, at so critical a stage in the long and checkered history of mankind, to arrive at a precise and satisfactory understanding of the steps which must successively lead a bleeding humanity, wretchedly oblivious of its God, and careless of Bahá’u’lláh, from its calvary to its ultimate resurrection. Not ours, the living witnesses of the all-subduing potency of His Faith, to question, for a moment, and however dark the misery that enshrouds the world, the ability of Bahá’u’lláh to forge, with the hammer of His Will, and through the fire of tribulation, upon the anvil of this travailing age, and in the particular shape His mind has envisioned, these scattered and mutually destructive fragments into which a perverse world has fallen, into one single unit, solid and indivisible, able to execute His design for the children of men. Ours rather the duty, however confused the scene, however dismal the present outlook, however circumscribed the resources we dispose of, to labor serenely, confidently, and unremittingly to lend our share of assistance, in whichever way circumstances may enable us, to the operation of the forces which, as marshaled and directed by Bahá’u’lláh, are leading humanity out of the valley of misery and shame to the loftiest summits of power and glory. Bahá'u'lláh don't say that every person
Re: First Person Grammar
the subject and there can be none in the minds of those who seek to serve Him: "Verily I say, this is the Day in which mankind can behold the Face, and hear the Voice, of the Promised One. The Call of God hath been raised, and the light of His countenance hath been lifted up upon men. It behoveth every man to blot out the trace of every idle word from the tablet of his heart, and to gaze, with an open and unbiased mind, on the signs of His Revelation, the proofs of His Mission, and the tokens of His glory." De: Stephen Kent Gray Para: Baha'i Studies Enviado: Domingo, 10 de febrero, 2013 6:00 P.M. Asunto: Re: First Person Grammar The Baha'i Studies Listserv There's no precedent in the history of religious demographics for one religion to dominate the whole world. People don't just convert to a religion because it's good. When people decide on what religion they want to be, they just do go and say "Do I want to be a Bahai or not?" There are dozens of major religious groups that any given person has to choose between. The only way to ensure a conversion is to have a person view the religion as exclusively good. You are forgetting the implicit opportunity cost in being any given religion. By choosing to be any of the 21 largest or 6 medium sized major religious groups, you are deciding not to be all the others, with the rare exceptions of triple religion in some areas of Asia and the like. Why would the world be 90's% any religion at all no matter how far in the future? That's even if you assume there's no new major religious groups appearing on the scene and projecting from that. Is there any evidence that at any point that the Baha'i Faith will be the fastest growing religion or even the only growing religion? Why would the world be 95%+ Bahai in the far future more than being 95%+ any other religion in the future? Why not 95%+ Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Secular, Wiccan, Tenrikyo, Cheodogyo, Seicho no Ie, Sekai Kyuseikyo, Rastafari, Cao Dai, Jain, Sikh, Jewish, Taoist, Confucian, Shinto, Unitarian Universalist, etc.? Wether 1,000 years into the future oven 1,000,00 years or more into the future, why would such a thing happen? Let's say an abstract person started to study other religions, including but not limited to the Baha'i Faith, why would said individual convert to the Baha'i Faith and never convert from it until their death? Said person may view their current religion as good, a religion they're studying as good, several of the religions they're studying as good, or even both their current religion and several of the ones being studied as good. Also, please define what you mean when a person find a religion to be good. Links to Wikipedia below. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_religious_groups http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_conversion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religious_populations http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claims_to_be_the_fastest-growing_religion Sent from my iPad On Feb 10, 2013, at 15:53, Hasan Elías wrote: >The Baha'i Studies Listserv >Hi Stephen, > > >I never read a bahá'í writing that suggests that everybody "must" became >bahá'í. > > >As a bahá'í I believe that in the distant future the majority of the world >(perhaps near 95%) will be bahá'í. The writings suggest that people will >embrace the Faith by choice because it is good, not because it is obligatory. > > >I heard the mass conversion will be held after the institutional attacks of >other big religions/denominations such as the Catholic Church, Islam, >Buddhism, etc. The cause of these attacks will be the fear of the success of >the Bahá'í World Order. > > >Hasan > > > > > De: Stephen Kent Gray >Para: Baha'i Studies >Enviado: Domingo, 10 de febrero, 2013 4:36 P.M. >Asunto: Re: First Person Grammar > > > >The Baha'i Studies Listserv >Technically, it depends on the use of pronoun tense (1, 2, or 3). > > >He makes lots of use of vague pronouns which leaves a window of >interpretation. Baha'i bloggers use sense 3 a lot like I've noted earlier. > > >In reference to Baha'u'llah, a blogger (I forget which one cause there are >just so many), says that humanity should and must accept His laws, His faith, >and His institutions. The blogger imposes divine duty on people, but never >suggest it's the duty of Baha'is to force people to comply with this duty. >Just that God may deal with non-Bahai's in the afterlife in a not so good way. > > >It depends on what His means. Does His means God's, Manifestation's (Moses's, >Jesus's, Muhammad&#
Re: First Person Grammar
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Stephen wrote: >I have seen Baha'i blogs where a sense 3 usage of Baha'ullah's writings combined with promoting >independent investigation of truth leads to imply that every man, woman, and child in the world should and must >become Baha'i because Baha'ullah says so.< To my understanding, Independent Investigation of Truth only implies that each individual must determine for him/herself what to accept as honesty or perceive as deception. I offer the following quotes and Principles of Baha’u’llah’s teachings as expounded by Abdu’l-Baha. Sandra “The greatest bestowal of God in the world of humanity is religion; for assuredly the divine teachings of religion are above all other sources of instruction and development to man. Religion confers upon man eternal life and guides his footsteps in the world of morality. It opens the doors of unending happiness and bestows everlasting honor upon the human kingdom. It has been the basis of all civilization and progress in the history of mankind. We will therefore investigate religion, seeking from an unprejudiced standpoint to discover whether it is the source of illumination, the cause of development and the animating impulse of all human advancement. We will investigate independently, free from the restrictions of dogmatic beliefs, blind imitations of ancestral forms, and the influence of mere human opinion; for as we enter this question we will find some who declare that religion is a cause of uplift and betterment in the world, while others assert just as positively that it is a detriment and a source of degradation to mankind. We must give these questions thorough and impartial consideration so that no doubt or uncertainty may linger in our minds regarding them.” (Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 270) * * * Abdu'l-Baha, Divine Philosophy, p. 24-28 “The sun of reality has risen from the eastern horizon. Its light and heat are being felt in all regions. Just as the rays of the phenomenal sun are infinite, likewise the rays of the sun of reality are infinite. The following summary contains but a few of the rays which may be likened unto great principles shining into the consciousness of man.” 1. INDEPENDENT INVESTIGATION OF REALITY - Discover for yourselves the reality of things, and strive to assimilate the methods by which noble-mindedness and glory are attained among the nations and people of the world. No man should follow blindly his ancestors and forefathers. Nay, each must see with his own eyes, hear with his own ears and investigate independently in order that he may find the truth. The religion of forefathers and ancestors is based upon blind imitation. Man should investigate reality. 2. ABANDONMENT OF ALL PREJUDICE - O people, make firm the girdle of endeavor, that perchance religious prejudice may be annulled. For love of God and his servants engage in this great and mighty matter. Religious hatred and rancor is a world-consuming fire, and the quenching thereof most arduous, unless the hand of divine might give men deliverance from this unfruitful calamity. Beware of prejudice; light is good in whatsoever lamp it is burning. A rose is beautiful in whatsoever garden it may bloom. A star has the same radiance if it shines from the east or the west. All the prophets of God have come to unite the children of men and not to disperse them; to put in action the law of love and not enmity. We must banish prejudice. Religious, patriotic, racial prejudices must disappear, for they are the destroyers of human society. We must become the cause of the unity of the human race. 3. THE ONENESS OF THE WORLD OF HUMANITY - White doves and gray doves associate with each other in perfect friendship. Man draws imaginary lines on the planet and says, "This is a Frenchman, a Musselman, an Italian!" Upon these differences wars are waged. Men are fighting for the possession of the earth. They fight for that which becomes their graves, their cemeteries, their tombs. In reality all are members of one human family -- children of one Heavenly Father. Humanity may be likened unto the vari-colored flowers of one garden. There is unity in diversity. Each sets off and enhances the other's beauty. 4. THE FOUNDATION OF ALL RELIGIONS IS ONE - The foundation underlying all the divine precepts is one reality. It must needs be reality and reality is one. Therefore the foundation of the divine religions is one. But we can see that certain forms and ceremonies have crept in. They are heretical, they are accidental, because they differ, hence they cause differences among religions. If we set aside all superstitions and see the reality of the foundation we shall all agree, because religion is one and not multiple. 5. RELIGION MUST BE IN ACCORD WITH SCIENCE AND REASON - Religion must agre
Re: First Person Grammar
The Baha'i Studies Listserv These prophecies usage of vague wording doesn't specify conversion to the Baha'i Faith. Belief in it's truth may increase, but that may result from an increase in inclusivism/pluralism, people who believe that religion other than their own are true as well as their own. There is nothing in the prophecy that mentions formal conversion. The Gleanings quote is even vaguer. It just say everyone will be a believer, but it doesn't specify them as Baha'is. It may refer to a world full of Jews, Christians, Muslims, Bayanis (Babis), Baha'is, Zoroastrians, Hindus, and Buddhists who all believe in the mutual validity of each other religion. Does the term believer mean Baha'i exclusively? Does the term faith mean Baha'i Faith exclusively? Does the term cause exclusively mean Baha'i Faith? You're still assigning a sense 3 rather than a sense 2 meaning to the prophecies. Believer means Jew, Christian, Muslim, Bayani (Babi), Baha'i, Zoroastrian, Hindu, and Buddhist. Faith and cause mean Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Bayaniism (Babiism), Baha'i Faith, Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, and Buddhism. None of the prophecies in uncertain terms says the Baha'i Faith will grow to be everyone one in the world. They say the vague term's like God's Faith, God's Cause, Belief will grow to contain everyone in the world. Sent from my iPad On Feb 11, 2013, at 1:21, Gary Selchert wrote: > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > We should be clear about what has actually been said: > > ‘Abdu’l-Bahá says in Promulgation of Universal Peace, pp. 429-430: “… my > purpose is to warn and strengthen you against accusations, criticisms, > revilings, and derision in newspaper articles or other publications. Be not > disturbed by them; they are the very confirmation of the cause, the very > source of upbuilding to the movement. May God confirm the day when a score of > ministers of the churches may arise and with bared heads cry at the top of > their voices that the Bahá’ís are misguided. I would like to see that day, > for that is the time when the Cause of God will spread. Bahá’u’lláh has > pronounced such as these couriers of the Cause. They will proclaim from the > pulpits that the Bahá’ís are fools, that they are a wicked and unrighteous > people, but be ye steadfast and unwavering in the Cause of God. They will > spread the message of Bahá’u’lláh.” > > Baha’u’llah says in Gleanings CL: "When the victory arriveth, every man shall > profess himself as believer and shall hasten to the shelter of God’s Faith. > Happy are they who in the days of world-encompassing trials have stood fast > in the Cause and refused to swerve from its truth." > > He certainly doesn't say that has to become a Baha'i, either to be a good > person now or a happy person in the next life. He simply says that at some > point...who knows, maybe 1,000,000 years from now...everyone will conclude > that his words were good and right and beneficial and that he was sent as a > true messenger of God. > > Quite obviously that is not a prophecy which can be objectively verified now. > It is simply and element of our faith which motivates us to do His bidding, > to the extent that we believe. > > > -Original Message- > From: Hasan Elías > To: Baha'i Studies > Sent: Sun, Feb 10, 2013 2:04 pm > Subject: Re: First Person Grammar > > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > Hi, > > It is better to recognize God (through Bahá'u'lláh), but we should not force > anybody. Where Bahá'u'lláh says that everybody "must" become bahá'í? > > Hasan > > > >I have seen Baha'i blogs where a sense 3 usage of Baha'ullah's writings > >combined with promoting >independent investigation of truth leads to imply > >that every man, woman, and child in the world should and must >become Baha'i > >because Baha'ullah says so. The status of Jews, Christians, Muslims, > >Bayanis, Zoroastrians, Hindus, and >Buddhists depends on the sense you use > >as well. This is despite Baha'is criticizing Christians doing the same thing > >with >the Bible and converting the world to Christianity because Jesus/Bible > >says so. > > http://www.wilmetteinstitute.org/projects/affirmations.html > > > __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-687666-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: First Person Grammar
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Who is happy in the next life and who is not? This passage has always struck me as indicative of a very inclusive and even-handed policy concerning the souls of individuals from various belief systems and the judgments of their actions: Baha’u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u'llah, p. 171 "It is clear and evident that all men shall, after their physical death, estimate the worth of their deeds, and realize all that their hands have wrought. I swear by the Day Star that shineth above the horizon of Divine power! They that are the followers of the one true God shall, the moment they depart out of this life, experience such joy and gladness as would be impossible to describe, while they that live in error shall be seized with such fear and trembling, and shall be filled with such consternation, as nothing can exceed. Well is it with him that hath quaffed the choice and incorruptible wine of faith through the gracious favor and the manifold bounties of Him Who is the Lord of all Faiths…." Clearly a variety of virtues, probably including theological correctness, weigh in our favor when we judge ourselves or are judged in the Presence of the Being of Light; and a variety of vices weigh against us. We all "live in error" to some extent, and we all pray to God for "gracious favor and manifold bounties." e.g. virtues which outweigh vices: James 5:20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way willsave his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. 1 Peter 4:8 Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because lovecovers a multitude of sins. and vices which outweigh virtues: Arabic Hidden Words 26 and 27: O SON OF BEING! How couldst thou forget thine own faults and busythyself with the faults of others? Whoso doeth this is accursed of Me.O SON OF MAN! Breathe not the sins of others so long as thouart thyself a sinner. Shouldst thou transgress this command, accursed wouldstthou be, and to this I bear witness. O SON OF MAN! Breathe not the sins of others so long as thouart thyself a sinner. Shouldst thou transgress this command, accursed wouldstthou be, and to this I bear witness. So as far as the next life goes we are all stuck wit Paul's admonition: O SON OF BEING! How couldst thou forget thine own faults and busythyself with the faults of others? Whoso doeth this is accursed of Me.O SON OF MAN! Breathe not the sins of others so long as thouart thyself a sinner. Shouldst thou transgress this command, accursed wouldstthou be, and to this I bear witness. So as far as the next life goes we are all stuck wit Paul's admonition: Philippians2:12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not asin my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvationwith fear and trembling; -Original Message- From: Stephen Kent Gray To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Sun, Feb 10, 2013 2:37 pm Subject: Re: First Person Grammar The Baha'i Studies Listserv Technically, it depends on the use of pronoun tense (1, 2, or 3). He makes lots of use of vague pronouns which leaves a window of interpretation. Baha'i bloggers use sense 3 a lot like I've noted earlier. In reference to Baha'u'llah, a blogger (I forget which one cause there are just so many), says that humanity should and must accept His laws, His faith, and His institutions. The blogger imposes divine duty on people, but never suggest it's the duty of Baha'is to force people to comply with this duty. Just that God may deal with non-Bahai's in the afterlife in a not so good way. It depends on what His means. Does His means God's, Manifestation's (Moses's, Jesus's, Muhammad's, Bab's, Baha'u'llah's, Zoroaster's, Krishna's, Buddha's), or just Baha'u'llah's? A pronoun is a word used instead of a noun as a time saving device. But, sometimes this can lead to ambiguity to what the pronouns is referring to. 1.God 2.Manifestation 3.Baha'ullah These above are the three sense I referred to earlier. 1 and 2 are splitting hairs basically. 3 is a subset of 2, but excludes the rest of 2 that is not 3. The topic is first person grammar, but can include third person grammar for indirect quotes rather than direct quotes. Sent from my iPad On Feb 10, 2013, at 15:04, Hasan Elías wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Hi, It is better to recognize God (through Bahá'u'lláh), but we should not force anybody. Where Bahá'u'lláh says that everybody "must" become bahá'í? Hasan >I have seen Baha'i blogs where a sense 3 usage of Baha'ullah's writings >combined with promoting >independent investigation of
Re: First Person Grammar
The Baha'i Studies Listserv We should be clear about what has actually been said: ‘Abdu’l-Bahá says in Promulgation of Universal Peace, pp. 429-430: “… my purpose isto warn and strengthen you against accusations, criticisms, revilings, andderision in newspaper articles or other publications. Be not disturbed by them;they are the very confirmation of the cause, the very source of upbuilding tothe movement. May God confirm the day when a score of ministers of the churchesmay arise and with bared heads cry at the top of their voices that the Bahá’ísare misguided. I would like to see that day, for that is the time when the Cause of God will spread. Bahá’u’lláhhas pronounced such as these couriers of the Cause. They will proclaim from thepulpits that the Bahá’ís are fools, that they are a wicked and unrighteouspeople, but be ye steadfast and unwavering in the Cause of God. They willspread the message of Bahá’u’lláh.” Baha’u’llah says in Gleanings CL: "Whenthe victory arriveth, every man shall profess himself as believer and shallhasten to the shelter of God’s Faith. Happy are they who in the days ofworld-encompassing trials have stood fast in the Cause and refused to swervefrom its truth." He certainly doesn't say that has to become a Baha'i, either to be a good person now or a happy person in the next life. He simply says that at some point...who knows, maybe 1,000,000 years from now...everyone will conclude that his words were good and right and beneficial and that he was sent as a true messenger of God. Quite obviously that is not a prophecy which can be objectively verified now. It is simply and element of our faith which motivates us to do His bidding, to the extent that we believe. -Original Message- From: Hasan Elías To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Sun, Feb 10, 2013 2:04 pm Subject: Re: First Person Grammar The Baha'i Studies Listserv Hi, It is better to recognize God (through Bahá'u'lláh), but we should not force anybody. Where Bahá'u'lláh says that everybody "must" become bahá'í? Hasan >I have seen Baha'i blogs where a sense 3 usage of Baha'ullah's writings >combined with promoting >independent investigation of truth leads to imply >that every man, woman, and child in the world should and must >become Baha'i >because Baha'ullah says so. The status of Jews, Christians, Muslims, Bayanis, >Zoroastrians, Hindus, and >Buddhists depends on the sense you use as well. >This is despite Baha'is criticizing Christians doing the same thing with >the >Bible and converting the world to Christianity because Jesus/Bible says so. http://www.wilmetteinstitute.org/projects/affirmations.html __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-687650-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: First Person Grammar
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Not to my knowledge. Everything else should be regarded as personal opinion therefore, and we can't make doctrinal judgements as to whether everyone has to become a Baha'i on the basis of that. On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 6:50 PM, Stephen Kent Gray wrote: > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > Yes, I know that. Have any authoritative interpretations on this been > translated into English? __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-687636-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: First Person Grammar
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Yes, I know that. Have any authoritative interpretations on this been translated into English? Sent from my iPad On Feb 10, 2013, at 17:53, Susan Maneck wrote: > The Baha'i Studies Listserv >> Those were the only instances I could remember at the time, but this is >> about all instances of pronouns being interpreted in any given sense. > > You realize that only Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi have the right to > make authoritative interpretations? > > __ > You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com > Unsubscribe: send a blank email to > mailto:leave-687633-1719008.2a3842ae5b2f7d34dd5fdfc724616...@list.jccc.edu > Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu > Or subscribe: > http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st > Baha'i Studies is available through the following: > Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st > News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st > Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net > New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-687635-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: First Person Grammar
The Baha'i Studies Listserv > Those were the only instances I could remember at the time, but this is about > all instances of pronouns being interpreted in any given sense. You realize that only Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi have the right to make authoritative interpretations? __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-687633-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: First Person Grammar
The Baha'i Studies Listserv What exactly is the believer versus non-believer divide? Technically, only secularists are non-believers, but people use the term to describe people who believe different than oneself rather than people who don't believe. People don't live in an abstract world where there's only one Messenger and one Message to accept or reject. In the real world, there are dozens of Messengers and Messages to accept or reject. Where do Jews, Christians, Muslims, Bayanis (Babis), Zoroastrians, Hindus and Buddhists fit? Unlike secularists who believe in no Messengers and no Messages, they each have their own Messengers and Messages. Also, what is this Persian quote source? I've already heard of the Mission of Maitreya guy who claims to be the first Manifestation after Baha'u'llah. Sent from my iPad On Feb 10, 2013, at 16:00, Don Calkins wrote: > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > They are entitled to their interpretation. But of course no matter how > prominent an individual may be, their statements are never authoritative. > > Personally, I believe that however important it is to accept the Messenger, > it is the Message that can not be rejected without consequence. > > I have heard that there is a passage in Persian that can be interpreted to > mean that only during the day of the second Manifestation after Baha'u'llah > will there be no excuse for not believing. > > Don C > > On Feb 10, 2013, at 1:36 57PM, Stephen Kent Gray wrote: > >> I have seen Baha'i blogs where a sense 3 usage of Baha'ullah's writings >> combined with promoting independent investigation of truth leads to imply >> that every man, woman, and child in the world should and must become Baha'i >> because Baha'ullah says so. > > > --- > It doesn't matter whether the sun shines if you never go outside. > > > > __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-687629-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: First Person Grammar
The Baha'i Studies Listserv There's no precedent in the history of religious demographics for one religion to dominate the whole world. People don't just convert to a religion because it's good. When people decide on what religion they want to be, they just do go and say "Do I want to be a Bahai or not?" There are dozens of major religious groups that any given person has to choose between. The only way to ensure a conversion is to have a person view the religion as exclusively good. You are forgetting the implicit opportunity cost in being any given religion. By choosing to be any of the 21 largest or 6 medium sized major religious groups, you are deciding not to be all the others, with the rare exceptions of triple religion in some areas of Asia and the like. Why would the world be 90's% any religion at all no matter how far in the future? That's even if you assume there's no new major religious groups appearing on the scene and projecting from that. Is there any evidence that at any point that the Baha'i Faith will be the fastest growing religion or even the only growing religion? Why would the world be 95%+ Bahai in the far future more than being 95%+ any other religion in the future? Why not 95%+ Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Secular, Wiccan, Tenrikyo, Cheodogyo, Seicho no Ie, Sekai Kyuseikyo, Rastafari, Cao Dai, Jain, Sikh, Jewish, Taoist, Confucian, Shinto, Unitarian Universalist, etc.? Wether 1,000 years into the future oven 1,000,00 years or more into the future, why would such a thing happen? Let's say an abstract person started to study other religions, including but not limited to the Baha'i Faith, why would said individual convert to the Baha'i Faith and never convert from it until their death? Said person may view their current religion as good, a religion they're studying as good, several of the religions they're studying as good, or even both their current religion and several of the ones being studied as good. Also, please define what you mean when a person find a religion to be good. Links to Wikipedia below. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_religious_groups http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_conversion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religious_populations http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claims_to_be_the_fastest-growing_religion Sent from my iPad On Feb 10, 2013, at 15:53, Hasan Elías wrote: > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > Hi Stephen, > > I never read a bahá'í writing that suggests that everybody "must" became > bahá'í. > > As a bahá'í I believe that in the distant future the majority of the world > (perhaps near 95%) will be bahá'í. The writings suggest that people will > embrace the Faith by choice because it is good, not because it is obligatory. > > I heard the mass conversion will be held after the institutional attacks of > other big religions/denominations such as the Catholic Church, Islam, > Buddhism, etc. The cause of these attacks will be the fear of the success of > the Bahá'í World Order. > > Hasan > > De: Stephen Kent Gray > Para: Baha'i Studies > Enviado: Domingo, 10 de febrero, 2013 4:36 P.M. > Asunto: Re: First Person Grammar > > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > Technically, it depends on the use of pronoun tense (1, 2, or 3). > > He makes lots of use of vague pronouns which leaves a window of > interpretation. Baha'i bloggers use sense 3 a lot like I've noted earlier. > > In reference to Baha'u'llah, a blogger (I forget which one cause there are > just so many), says that humanity should and must accept His laws, His faith, > and His institutions. The blogger imposes divine duty on people, but never > suggest it's the duty of Baha'is to force people to comply with this duty. > Just that God may deal with non-Bahai's in the afterlife in a not so good > way. > > It depends on what His means. Does His means God's, Manifestation's (Moses's, > Jesus's, Muhammad's, Bab's, Baha'u'llah's, Zoroaster's, Krishna's, Buddha's), > or just Baha'u'llah's? > > A pronoun is a word used instead of a noun as a time saving device. But, > sometimes this can lead to ambiguity to what the pronouns is referring to. > > 1.God > 2.Manifestation > 3.Baha'ullah > > These above are the three sense I referred to earlier. 1 and 2 are splitting > hairs basically. 3 is a subset of 2, but excludes the rest of 2 that is not > 3. The topic is first person grammar, but can include third person grammar > for indirect quotes rather than direct quotes. > > Sent from my iPad > > On Feb 10, 2013, at 15:04, Hasan Elías
Re: First Person Grammar
The Baha'i Studies Listserv They are entitled to their interpretation. But of course no matter how prominent an individual may be, their statements are never authoritative. Personally, I believe that however important it is to accept the Messenger, it is the Message that can not be rejected without consequence. I have heard that there is a passage in Persian that can be interpreted to mean that only during the day of the second Manifestation after Baha'u'llah will there be no excuse for not believing. Don C On Feb 10, 2013, at 1:36 57PM, Stephen Kent Gray wrote: > I have seen Baha'i blogs where a sense 3 usage of Baha'ullah's writings > combined with promoting independent investigation of truth leads to imply > that every man, woman, and child in the world should and must become Baha'i > because Baha'ullah says so. --- It doesn't matter whether the sun shines if you never go outside. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-687626-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: First Person Grammar
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Hi Stephen, I never read a bahá'í writing that suggests that everybody "must" became bahá'í. As a bahá'í I believe that in the distant future the majority of the world (perhaps near 95%) will be bahá'í. The writings suggest that people will embrace the Faith by choice because it is good, not because it is obligatory. I heard the mass conversion will be held after the institutional attacks of other big religions/denominations such as the Catholic Church, Islam, Buddhism, etc. The cause of these attacks will be the fear of the success of the Bahá'í World Order. Hasan De: Stephen Kent Gray Para: Baha'i Studies Enviado: Domingo, 10 de febrero, 2013 4:36 P.M. Asunto: Re: First Person Grammar The Baha'i Studies Listserv Technically, it depends on the use of pronoun tense (1, 2, or 3). He makes lots of use of vague pronouns which leaves a window of interpretation. Baha'i bloggers use sense 3 a lot like I've noted earlier. In reference to Baha'u'llah, a blogger (I forget which one cause there are just so many), says that humanity should and must accept His laws, His faith, and His institutions. The blogger imposes divine duty on people, but never suggest it's the duty of Baha'is to force people to comply with this duty. Just that God may deal with non-Bahai's in the afterlife in a not so good way. It depends on what His means. Does His means God's, Manifestation's (Moses's, Jesus's, Muhammad's, Bab's, Baha'u'llah's, Zoroaster's, Krishna's, Buddha's), or just Baha'u'llah's? A pronoun is a word used instead of a noun as a time saving device. But, sometimes this can lead to ambiguity to what the pronouns is referring to. 1.God 2.Manifestation 3.Baha'ullah These above are the three sense I referred to earlier. 1 and 2 are splitting hairs basically. 3 is a subset of 2, but excludes the rest of 2 that is not 3. The topic is first person grammar, but can include third person grammar for indirect quotes rather than direct quotes. Sent from my iPad On Feb 10, 2013, at 15:04, Hasan Elías wrote: >The Baha'i Studies Listserv >Hi, > > >It is better to recognize God (through Bahá'u'lláh), but we should not force >anybody. Where Bahá'u'lláh says that everybody "must" become bahá'í? > > > >Hasan > > > > >>I have seen Baha'i blogs where a sense 3 usage of Baha'ullah's writings >>combined with promoting >independent investigation of truth leads to imply >>that every man, woman, and child in the world should and must >become Baha'i >>because Baha'ullah says so. The status of Jews, Christians, Muslims, Bayanis, >>Zoroastrians, Hindus, and >Buddhists depends on the sense you use as well. >>This is despite Baha'is criticizing Christians doing the same thing with >the >>Bible and converting the world to Christianity because Jesus/Bible says so. > > > >http://www.wilmetteinstitute.org/projects/affirmations.html > > > > __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-687625-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: First Person Grammar
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Those were the only instances I could remember at the time, but this is about all instances of pronouns being interpreted in any given sense. Sent from my iPad On Feb 10, 2013, at 14:46, Susan Maneck wrote: > The Baha'i Studies Listserv >> In the link at the bottom, the author singles there out as referring to >> Baha'u'llah rather than God, or a abstract Manifestation. > > I would simply disagree with the author. Those passages refer to God, > not Baha'u'llah. > > __ > You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com > Unsubscribe: send a blank email to > mailto:leave-687621-1719008.2a3842ae5b2f7d34dd5fdfc724616...@list.jccc.edu > Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu > Or subscribe: > http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st > Baha'i Studies is available through the following: > Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st > News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st > Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net > New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-687624-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: First Person Grammar
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Technically, it depends on the use of pronoun tense (1, 2, or 3). He makes lots of use of vague pronouns which leaves a window of interpretation. Baha'i bloggers use sense 3 a lot like I've noted earlier. In reference to Baha'u'llah, a blogger (I forget which one cause there are just so many), says that humanity should and must accept His laws, His faith, and His institutions. The blogger imposes divine duty on people, but never suggest it's the duty of Baha'is to force people to comply with this duty. Just that God may deal with non-Bahai's in the afterlife in a not so good way. It depends on what His means. Does His means God's, Manifestation's (Moses's, Jesus's, Muhammad's, Bab's, Baha'u'llah's, Zoroaster's, Krishna's, Buddha's), or just Baha'u'llah's? A pronoun is a word used instead of a noun as a time saving device. But, sometimes this can lead to ambiguity to what the pronouns is referring to. 1.God 2.Manifestation 3.Baha'ullah These above are the three sense I referred to earlier. 1 and 2 are splitting hairs basically. 3 is a subset of 2, but excludes the rest of 2 that is not 3. The topic is first person grammar, but can include third person grammar for indirect quotes rather than direct quotes. Sent from my iPad On Feb 10, 2013, at 15:04, Hasan Elías wrote: > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > Hi, > > It is better to recognize God (through Bahá'u'lláh), but we should not force > anybody. Where Bahá'u'lláh says that everybody "must" become bahá'í? > > Hasan > > > >I have seen Baha'i blogs where a sense 3 usage of Baha'ullah's writings > >combined with promoting >independent investigation of truth leads to imply > >that every man, woman, and child in the world should and must >become Baha'i > >because Baha'ullah says so. The status of Jews, Christians, Muslims, > >Bayanis, Zoroastrians, Hindus, and >Buddhists depends on the sense you use > >as well. This is despite Baha'is criticizing Christians doing the same thing > >with >the Bible and converting the world to Christianity because Jesus/Bible > >says so. > > http://www.wilmetteinstitute.org/projects/affirmations.html > > > __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-687623-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: First Person Grammar
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Hi, It is better to recognize God (through Bahá'u'lláh), but we should not force anybody. Where Bahá'u'lláh says that everybody "must" become bahá'í? Hasan >I have seen Baha'i blogs where a sense 3 usage of Baha'ullah's writings >combined with promoting >independent investigation of truth leads to imply >that every man, woman, and child in the world should and must >become Baha'i >because Baha'ullah says so. The status of Jews, Christians, Muslims, Bayanis, >Zoroastrians, Hindus, and >Buddhists depends on the sense you use as well. >This is despite Baha'is criticizing Christians doing the same thing with >the >Bible and converting the world to Christianity because Jesus/Bible says so. http://www.wilmetteinstitute.org/projects/affirmations.html __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-687622-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: First Person Grammar
The Baha'i Studies Listserv > In the link at the bottom, the author singles there out as referring to > Baha'u'llah rather than God, or a abstract Manifestation. I would simply disagree with the author. Those passages refer to God, not Baha'u'llah. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-687621-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
