Re: Year of patience - Exceptions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv the partner who is the 'cause of divorce' will 'unquestionably' become the 'victim of formidable calamities'." (Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 391) This is an interesting prediction. Has anyone observed this with numerous marriages? Regards, David __ See what's on at the movies in your area. Find out now: http://au.movies.yahoo.com/session-times/ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-481516-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Year of patience - Exceptions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv >Would this also mean the following is not applicable: > > ''During this year of patience, the husband is > obliged to provide for the financial support of his wife and > children..." (Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 211) Dear David, If she remarries during the year of patience then I think that would certainly void this requirement. In any case, this requirement is not being enforced at present anyhow. My ex-husband did not support me while we were married, he sure didn't support me during our year of patience! In cases where men *have* been the major breadwinner women usually are able to get alimony for longer than a year and the Baha'i institutions have never stopped us from doing that. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-481489-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Year of patience - Exceptions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv It was brought to my attention that I missed the following letter: 1331. "...There is no Baha'i law requiring the removal of voting rights for obtaining a civil divorce before the end of the year of waiting. It is, of course preferred that civil divorce action be not instituted or completed before the end of the year unless there are special circumstances justifying such action. If a Baha'i should marry another prior to the end of waiting however, voting rights should be suspended a, under Baha'i Law, he is still regarded as married whether or not the civil divorce has been granted. On the other hand, if a non-Baha'i partner, having obtained a civil divorce, married during the year of waiting, the Baha'i partner is released from the need to wait further." (From a letter of the Universal House of Justice to a National Spiritual Assembly, August 20, 1974) (Compilations, Lights of Guidance) __ See what's on at the movies in your area. Find out now: http://au.movies.yahoo.com/session-times/ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-481486-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Year of patience
I know that... but reality is sometimes different (every psychiatrist can
explain that there is unfornuatly a gap between what we want and what we
do...)
At this time my ex-wife and I were christians (theoricaly adhering to the
same law forbiden sex outside of the marriage).
I discovered the Baha'i Faith by meeting a baha'i girl, I realized I was in
love after 2 years, I divorced 2 years later, and I finaly became Baha'i
after 2 more years...
Not proud of all this, but this is life.
Best regards,
Loïc
- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Baha'i Studies"
Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 9:52 PM
Subject: Re: Year of patience
Personaly I have never felt this "repugnance" toward my ex-wife. I
always respect and appreciate her. but when I realized I was in
love with someone else (and not just for a temporary pleasure
time) I have prefered to talk with her about this.
Dear Loic,
I do not think that falling in love with someone else is a valid
reason for divorce in the Baha'i Faith. You may not have fallen in
love with this person purely for sex, but it is hard to imagine how
something like that would happen if you were strictly adhering to
Baha'i laws regarding no sex outside of marriage.
warmest, Susan
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Re: Year of patience
Actually my wife and I separated, went through the Year, divorced and two years
later re-married. Other than that "respondent remarketh not".
Regards,
Scott
Loïc ROYER <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Dear Scott,
Have you ever felt in love? and have you ever been married?!
I can assure you that the "repugnance" for your wife will quickly grow-up if
you just feel boried and because she will become the every-day obstacle to your
life!
Personaly I have never felt this "repugnance" toward my ex-wife. I always
respect and appreciate her. but when I realized I was in love with someone else
(and not just for a temporary pleasure time) I have prefered to talk with her
about this. She is not baha'i but in fact it took us more than 2 years before
deciding to divorce.
Waiting for this "repugnance" between wife and husband look to me the worst
way to divorce.
I clearly believe we have to think well before to get married, because it's
for our whole life. but if it appears we have made a mistake, the divorce is a
possibility given to arrange things for both, and I don't think we have to wait
to feel "repugnance" one for the other...
Loïc
- Original Message -
From: Scott Saylors
To: Baha'i Studies
Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 7:38 PM
Subject: Re: Year of patience
Loïc ROYER <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Dear Scott,
I didn't thought about this, but it looks very important indeed.
but once the separation is effective, and one or the other is in love with
someone else, the dignity of both is lost...
So I believe this is one more reason to consider that regarding the year of
patience, soonest is the best!
Loïc
By BOTH parties observing the year, regardless of the cause of the
separation, dignity is preserved. I would note also that the only real reason
for divorce is feeling 'repugnance' toward one's partner. If the repugnance is
only because one 'loves someone else', is that valid? (n a Bahai sense).
Regards,
Scott
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immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments
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Re: Year of patience
By that I meant other than that general statement, I wasn't going to say more
about my experience or my wife's.
Regards,
Scott
Loïc ROYER <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Ok so you know what we are talking about.
and I believe you don't feel "repugnance" for your ex-wife...?
My english is too poor to understand what you mean by "Other than that
"respondent remarketh not"...?
Regards,
Loïc
- Original Message -
From: Scott Saylors
To: Baha'i Studies
Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 9:27 PM
Subject: Re: Year of patience
Actually my wife and I separated, went through the Year, divorced and two
years later re-married. Other than that "respondent remarketh not".
Regards,
Scott
Loïc ROYER <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Dear Scott,
Have you ever felt in love? and have you ever been married?!
I can assure you that the "repugnance" for your wife will quickly grow-up if
you just feel boried and because she will become the every-day obstacle to your
life!
Personaly I have never felt this "repugnance" toward my ex-wife. I always
respect and appreciate her. but when I realized I was in love with someone else
(and not just for a temporary pleasure time) I have prefered to talk with her
about this. She is not baha'i but in fact it took us more than 2 years before
deciding to divorce.
Waiting for this "repugnance" between wife and husband look to me the worst
way to divorce.
I clearly believe we have to think well before to get married, because it's
for our whole life. but if it appears we have made a mistake, the divorce is a
possibility given to arrange things for both, and I don't think we have to wait
to feel "repugnance" one for the other...
Loïc
- Original Message -----
From: Scott Saylors
To: Baha'i Studies
Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 7:38 PM
Subject: Re: Year of patience
Loïc ROYER <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Dear Scott,
I didn't thought about this, but it looks very important indeed.
but once the separation is effective, and one or the other is in love with
someone else, the dignity of both is lost...
So I believe this is one more reason to consider that regarding the year of
patience, soonest is the best!
Loïc
By BOTH parties observing the year, regardless of the cause of the
separation, dignity is preserved. I would note also that the only real reason
for divorce is feeling 'repugnance' toward one's partner. If the repugnance is
only because one 'loves someone else', is that valid? (n a Bahai sense).
Regards,
Scott
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto
("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is
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named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and
disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the
intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination,
distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have
received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and
immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments
thereto. Thank you.
__
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News - news:/
Re: Year of patience
> Personaly I have never felt this "repugnance" toward my ex-wife. I
> always respect and appreciate her. but when I realized I was in
> love with someone else (and not just for a temporary pleasure
> time) I have prefered to talk with her about this.
Dear Loic,
I do not think that falling in love with someone else is a valid
reason for divorce in the Baha'i Faith. You may not have fallen in
love with this person purely for sex, but it is hard to imagine how
something like that would happen if you were strictly adhering to
Baha'i laws regarding no sex outside of marriage.
warmest, Susan
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail")
is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be
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Re: Year of patience
Ok so you know what we are talking about.
and I believe you don't feel "repugnance" for your ex-wife...?
My english is too poor to understand what you mean by "Other than that
"respondent remarketh not"...?
Regards,
Loïc
- Original Message -
From: Scott Saylors
To: Baha'i Studies
Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 9:27 PM
Subject: Re: Year of patience
Actually my wife and I separated, went through the Year, divorced and two
years later re-married. Other than that "respondent remarketh not".
Regards,
Scott
Loïc ROYER <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Dear Scott,
Have you ever felt in love? and have you ever been married?!
I can assure you that the "repugnance" for your wife will quickly grow-up
if you just feel boried and because she will become the every-day obstacle to
your life!
Personaly I have never felt this "repugnance" toward my ex-wife. I always
respect and appreciate her. but when I realized I was in love with someone else
(and not just for a temporary pleasure time) I have prefered to talk with her
about this. She is not baha'i but in fact it took us more than 2 years before
deciding to divorce.
Waiting for this "repugnance" between wife and husband look to me the worst
way to divorce.
I clearly believe we have to think well before to get married, because it's
for our whole life. but if it appears we have made a mistake, the divorce is a
possibility given to arrange things for both, and I don't think we have to wait
to feel "repugnance" one for the other...
Loïc
- Original Message -
From: Scott Saylors
To: Baha'i Studies
Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 7:38 PM
Subject: Re: Year of patience
Loïc ROYER <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Dear Scott,
I didn't thought about this, but it looks very important indeed.
but once the separation is effective, and one or the other is in love
with someone else, the dignity of both is lost...
So I believe this is one more reason to consider that regarding the
year of patience, soonest is the best!
Loïc
By BOTH parties observing the year, regardless of the cause of the
separation, dignity is preserved. I would note also that the only real reason
for divorce is feeling 'repugnance' toward one's partner. If the repugnance is
only because one 'loves someone else', is that valid? (n a Bahai sense).
Regards,
Scott
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto
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intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination,
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received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and
immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments
thereto. Thank you.
__
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Re: Year of patience
Dear Scott,
Have you ever felt in love? and have you ever been married?!
I can assure you that the "repugnance" for your wife will quickly grow-up if
you just feel boried and because she will become the every-day obstacle to your
life!
Personaly I have never felt this "repugnance" toward my ex-wife. I always
respect and appreciate her. but when I realized I was in love with someone else
(and not just for a temporary pleasure time) I have prefered to talk with her
about this. She is not baha'i but in fact it took us more than 2 years before
deciding to divorce.
Waiting for this "repugnance" between wife and husband look to me the worst way
to divorce.
I clearly believe we have to think well before to get married, because it's for
our whole life. but if it appears we have made a mistake, the divorce is a
possibility given to arrange things for both, and I don't think we have to wait
to feel "repugnance" one for the other...
Loïc
- Original Message -
From: Scott Saylors
To: Baha'i Studies
Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 7:38 PM
Subject: Re: Year of patience
Loïc ROYER <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Dear Scott,
I didn't thought about this, but it looks very important indeed.
but once the separation is effective, and one or the other is in love with
someone else, the dignity of both is lost...
So I believe this is one more reason to consider that regarding the year of
patience, soonest is the best!
Loïc
By BOTH parties observing the year, regardless of the cause of the
separation, dignity is preserved. I would note also that the only real reason
for divorce is feeling 'repugnance' toward one's partner. If the repugnance is
only because one 'loves someone else', is that valid? (n a Bahai sense).
Regards,
Scott
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto
("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is
intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity
named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and
disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the
intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination,
distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have
received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and
immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments
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Re: Year of patience
Loïc ROYER <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Dear Scott,
I didn't thought about this, but it looks very important indeed.
but once the separation is effective, and one or the other is in love with
someone else, the dignity of both is lost...
So I believe this is one more reason to consider that regarding the year of
patience, soonest is the best!
Loïc
By BOTH parties observing the year, regardless of the cause of the
separation, dignity is preserved. I would note also that the only real reason
for divorce is feeling 'repugnance' toward one's partner. If the repugnance is
only because one 'loves someone else', is that valid? (n a Bahai sense).
Regards,
Scott
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Re: Year of patience
Dear Scott,
I didn't thought about this, but it looks very important indeed.
but once the separation is effective, and one or the other is in love with
someone else, the dignity of both is lost...
So I believe this is one more reason to consider that regarding the year of
patience, soonest is the best!
Loïc
- Original Message -
From: Scott Saylors
To: Baha'i Studies
Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 6:14 PM
Subject: Re: Year of patience
There's another very important reason for the Year: To protect the dignity of
both parties.
Regards,
Scott
Loïc ROYER <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I always believe that the object of the law is more important than the law
itself.
What is the object of the Year of patience?
To give a chance, to avoid the divorce, by thinking alone, discussing with
others, speaking with the other, hearing the other, and maybe understanding
that the couple is not just an easy way to live but a fight of every day to
build a common life in love!
Having been married and now divorced, I think that I had, and that most
people have, a wrong understanding of this year of patience.
The Year of patience is sometimes considered as a negative thing, beginning
of the official divorce, 1st stage of the process to divorce. but it is NOT!!!
On the contrary, it is a very POSITIVE thing! Beginning of the discussion
about the problems, 1st stage of a process of comprehension, good-willing,
reconciliation of the couple!
As far as we consider it just like a sort of administrative process of the
divorce, we enter this too late, there is already nothing to save, the year of
patience has lost all its purpose...
If we consider it like a way to avoid the divorce, to go upon the
difficulties of the family life, then all couples should enter into 1,2,5,
maybe 10 years of patience during life! and it's normal! here, the Year of
patience find all its purpose and help for humanity.
Don't be afraid!
Talking about the Year of patience is NOT talking about divorce!
On the contrary, it's a way to say "we want to stay together! we don't want
to divorce! We have problems, so let's give us one complete year to resolve
these! in order to stay in Love!"
Otherwise, when it's too late, when there is nothing to save, I don't see
the need to take a year of patience...
Loïc
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Re: Year of patience
There's another very important reason for the Year: To protect the dignity of
both parties.
Regards,
Scott
Loïc ROYER <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I always believe that the object of the law is more important than the law
itself.
What is the object of the Year of patience?
To give a chance, to avoid the divorce, by thinking alone, discussing with
others, speaking with the other, hearing the other, and maybe understanding
that the couple is not just an easy way to live but a fight of every day to
build a common life in love!
Having been married and now divorced, I think that I had, and that most people
have, a wrong understanding of this year of patience.
The Year of patience is sometimes considered as a negative thing, beginning of
the official divorce, 1st stage of the process to divorce. but it is NOT!!!
On the contrary, it is a very POSITIVE thing! Beginning of the discussion about
the problems, 1st stage of a process of comprehension, good-willing,
reconciliation of the couple!
As far as we consider it just like a sort of administrative process of the
divorce, we enter this too late, there is already nothing to save, the year of
patience has lost all its purpose...
If we consider it like a way to avoid the divorce, to go upon the difficulties
of the family life, then all couples should enter into 1,2,5, maybe 10 years of
patience during life! and it's normal! here, the Year of patience find all its
purpose and help for humanity.
Don't be afraid!
Talking about the Year of patience is NOT talking about divorce!
On the contrary, it's a way to say "we want to stay together! we don't want to
divorce! We have problems, so let's give us one complete year to resolve these!
in order to stay in Love!"
Otherwise, when it's too late, when there is nothing to save, I don't see the
need to take a year of patience...
Loïc
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Re: Year of patience
I always believe that the object of the law is more important than the law
itself.
What is the object of the Year of patience?
To give a chance, to avoid the divorce, by thinking alone, discussing with
others, speaking with the other, hearing the other, and maybe understanding
that the couple is not just an easy way to live but a fight of every day to
build a common life in love!
Having been married and now divorced, I think that I had, and that most people
have, a wrong understanding of this year of patience.
The Year of patience is sometimes considered as a negative thing, beginning of
the official divorce, 1st stage of the process to divorce. but it is NOT!!!
On the contrary, it is a very POSITIVE thing! Beginning of the discussion about
the problems, 1st stage of a process of comprehension, good-willing,
reconciliation of the couple!
As far as we consider it just like a sort of administrative process of the
divorce, we enter this too late, there is already nothing to save, the year of
patience has lost all its purpose...
If we consider it like a way to avoid the divorce, to go upon the difficulties
of the family life, then all couples should enter into 1,2,5, maybe 10 years of
patience during life! and it's normal! here, the Year of patience find all its
purpose and help for humanity.
Don't be afraid!
Talking about the Year of patience is NOT talking about divorce!
On the contrary, it's a way to say "we want to stay together! we don't want to
divorce! We have problems, so let's give us one complete year to resolve these!
in order to stay in Love!"
Otherwise, when it's too late, when there is nothing to save, I don't see the
need to take a year of patience...
Loïc
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Re: Year of patience
"If a Baha'i is married to a non-Baha'i the non-Baha'i can get a
divorce prior to the conclusion of a year of patience. They
can do this because Baha'i law is subordinate to civil law. "
Dear David,
It is possible for a Baha'i to get a civil divorce prior to the end of
the year of patience as well, though this is strongly discouraged as
being contrary to the spirit of the Year of Patience. What they can't
do according to Baha'i law is remarry until the year is up.
Peculiarities state law sometimes make an early divorce advisable. I
know of one case and have heard of another in which the House of
Justice agreed. It should be noted that in both cases it involved a
vindictive and abusive spouse. And laws may have changed since then.
Don C
--
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He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not.
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Re: Year of patience
"If a Baha'i is married to a non-Baha'i the non-Baha'i can get a
divorce prior to the conclusion of a year of patience. They
can do this because Baha'i law is subordinate to civil law. "
Dear David,
It is possible for a Baha'i to get a civil divorce prior to the end of
the year of patience as well, though this is strongly discouraged as
being contrary to the spirit of the Year of Patience. What they can't
do according to Baha'i law is remarry until the year is up.
"My question is, if this happens must the Baha'i observe the rest of
the year of patience even though divorced, or are they allowed to look
for love elsewhere?"
Yes, they must still observe the Year of Patience.
warmest, Susan
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Re: Year of patience
In a word, "YES". It is possible under certain conditions for a Baha`i to seek a civil divorce before the year is up. In those cases the Year of Patience is still binding. Regards, ScottDavid Friedman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: If a Baha'i is married to a non-Baha'i the non-Baha'i can get a divorce prior to the conclusion of a year of patience. They can do this because Baha'i law is subordinate to civil law. My question is, if this happens must the Baha'i observe the rest of the year of patience even though divorced, or are they allowed to look for love elsewhere? DavidNeed a new job? Check out XtraMSN Careers The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public -
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As human beings, we are endowed with freedom of choice, and we cannot shuffle off our responsibility upon the shoulders of God or nature. We must shoulder it ourselves. It is our responsibility. Arnold J. Toynbee
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