RE: Virgin Birth
-Original Message- From: David Friedman ... Obviously to say something is a sign of Jesus Prophethood is to say that it serves as proof that Jesus was a Manifestation. ... Of course, after all this, perhaps Im reading too much into what Shoghi Effendi wrote, and he didnt mean to suggest the Virgin Birth should constitute good proof, but simply that it indicated Jesus station (going by our belief that it happened). Dear David, I think signs usually indicate, without constituting proof. --- Vaughn __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.net/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.net/bahai-st http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist (public) http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (public)
Prophecy
I'd be interested in your thoughts on these comments about prophecy from a Baha'i academic. He made an interesting point about the calcuation of the years which I hadn't noticed, and can't say I would be able to respond to. Here were his comments: I tend to take prophecy stuff with a grain of salt. If the Baha'i Writings say X is fulfilled, fine. But if you want to refute them, sometimes they're pretty easy. Consider how one comes up with 1844 being 1260; you have to assume 1260 refers to months of 30 days and years of 360 days in order to convert 42 months and three and a half times into 1260, and then once you get 1260 years you have to assume it refers to a years of 354 days instead of 360 or 365.24 days. If 'Abdu'l-Baha hadn't said that's the way it is, I would have said it's absurd. _ Surf the net and talk on the phone with Xtra Jetstream @ http://www.xtra.co.nz/products/0,,5803,00.html ! __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.net/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.net/bahai-st http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist (public) http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (public)
Re: Looks like I didn't get the memo
I wasn't too happy about that, but hopefully we have an excuse for saying one less than the required amount! Why don't you just remember to say one extra after using the 94 beads? Oh, I can see how that might have been unclear. I meant an excuse for those times we said it before we found out about the number. David _ Surf the net and talk on the phone with Xtra Jetstream @ http://www.xtra.co.nz/products/0,,5803,00.html ! __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.net/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.net/bahai-st http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist (public) http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (public)
Re: Firmness in the Covenant
The problem of this passage is that it would indicate that non-Baha'is are bad associates or lepers, whom we should not associate with. Jesus' brothers and Tahirih's sons were not bad people (I don't think), but 'Abdu'l-Baha is clearly implying that Jesus and Tahirih's avoidance of them due to their failure to recognize the new Revelation was a GOOD thing, something God would want. Folllowing the logic in this passage it would seem I would be supposed to cut off all contact with just about all my relatives, and break off some of my social contacts as well. Dear David, In the general sense the exhortation to shun Covenant breakers is derived from the following Hidden Word which Abdu'l-Baha specifically quotes in connection with Covenant breaking: O FRIEND! In the garden of thy heart plant naught but the rose of love, and from the nightingale of affection and desire loosen not thy hold. Treasure the companionship of the righteous and eschew all fellowship with the ungodly. In the case of Tahirih's husband's family (which included her mujtahid sons) we are not talking about people who simply did not accept the Baha'i Faith, we are talking about people who persecuted it to the point of having Baha'is executed. How is this passage to be reconciled with the teaching to consort with the followers of all religions? Don't consort with Ayatullahs who kill Baha'is. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.net/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.net/bahai-st http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist (public) http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (public)
Re: Firmness in the Covenant
My dear David Friedman of New Zealand This servant would beg you to read this Passage with the balance of looking at other Passages from the same Pen. You place yourself sometimes in a position of difficulty and logical incoherence because perhaps you do not look at all the relevant passages. Or so it appears. Or maybe you do so to stimulate discussion which may be good thing. God alone knoweth. Please recall Firstly that the same Pen wrote: O ye lovers of this wronged one! Cleanse ye your eyes, so that ye behold no man as different from yourselves. See ye no strangers; rather see all men as friends, for love and unity come hard when ye fix your gaze on otherness. And in this new and wondrous age, the Holy Writings say that we must be at one with every people; that we must see neither harshness nor injustice, neither malevolence, nor hostility, nor hate, but rather turn our eyes toward the heaven of ancient glory. For each of the creatures is a sign of God, and it was by the grace of the Lord and His power that each did step into the world; therefore they are not strangers, but in the family; not aliens, but friends, and to be treated as such. Wherefore must the loved ones of God associate in affectionate fellowship with stranger and friend alike, showing forth to all the utmost loving-kindness, disregarding the degree of their capacity, never asking whether they deserve to be loved. In every instance let the friends be considerate and infinitely kind. Let them never be defeated by the malice of the people, by their aggression and their hate, no matter how intense. If others hurl their darts against you, offer them milk and honey in return; if they poison your lives, sweeten their souls; if they injure you, teach them how to be comforted; if they inflict a wound upon you, be a balm to their sores; if they sting you, hold to their lips a refreshing cup. (`Abdu'l-Baha: Selections ... `Abdu'l-Baha, Page: 24) Let them never be defeated by the malice of the people, by their aggression and their hate, no matter how intense Wherefore must the loved ones of God associate in affectionate fellowship with stranger and friend alike, showing forth to all the utmost loving-kindness, disregarding the degree of their capacity, never asking whether they deserve to be loved and secondly the RULE TO GUIDE BAHAI LIFE Thy letter hath been received and its contents noted. Thou didst ask for a rule whereby to guide thy life. Believe thou in God, and keep thine eyes fixed upon the exalted Kingdom; be thou enamoured of the Abha Beauty; stand thou firm in the Covenant; yearn thou to ascend into the Heaven of the Universal Light. Be thou severed from this world, and reborn through the sweet scents of holiness that blow from the realm of the All-Highest. Be thou a summoner to love, and be thou kind to all the human race. Love thou the children of men and share in their sorrows. Be thou of those who foster peace. Offer thy friendship, be worthy of trust. Be thou a balm to every sore, be thou a medicine for every ill. Bind thou the souls together. Recite thou the verses of guidance. Be engaged in the worship of thy Lord, and rise up to lead the people aright. Loose thy tongue and teach, and let thy face be bright with the fire of God's love. Rest thou not for a moment, seek thou to draw no easeful breath. Thus mayest thou become a sign and symbol of God's love, and a banner of His grace. (`Abdu'l-Baha: Selections ... `Abdu'l-Baha, Pages: 26-27) But by the same token there were those who knew the truth of the Covenant and YET they rose to hurt the Centre of the Covenant. NOTICE THE EMPHASIS **IT IS NOT THAT THEY KNOW NOT** Praise be to God, all such doors are closed in the Cause of Baha'u'llah for a special authoritative Centre hath been appointed - a Centre that solveth all difficulties and wardeth off all differences. The Universal House of Justice, likewise, wardeth off all differences and whatever it prescribeth must be accepted and he who transgresseth is rejected. But this Universal House of Justice which is the Legislature hath not yet been instituted. Thus it is seen that no means for dissension hath been left, but carnal desires are the cause of difference as it is the case with the violators. These do not doubt the validity of the Covenant but selfish motives have dragged them to this condition. ***It is not that they do not know what they do - they are perfectly aware and still they exhibit opposition. *** In short, the ocean of the Covenant is tumultuous and wide. (`Abdu'l-Baha: Selections ... `Abdu'l-Baha, Pages: 215-216) As we say in England idiomatically [hopefully in New Zealand too] this is a different kettle and different fish. Again the Writings say: ***...Covenant Breaking is truly a Spiritual disease, and the whole view-point and attitude of a Covenant Breaker is so poisonous that the Master likened it to leprosy, and warned the friends to breathe the
Virgin Birth
Of course, after all this, perhaps I'm reading too much into what Shoghi Effendi wrote, and he didn't mean to suggest the Virgin Birth should constitute good proof, but simply that it indicated Jesus' station (going by our belief that it happened). This last (reading too much into...) is something with which I can agree to a certain extent. What does science call a virgin birth? I have no idea. Consider for miracles however, that the Jews, knowing that Joseph had not yet married Mary when her condition was discovered, knowing that she had been determined pure enough by the highest rabbis to live and work in the Temple, should discover her condition and not stone her,and should let her return home with the child; that Joseph a devout Jew, possibly a widower with two or more children, possibly allowed to support her as a religious act while she worked in the Temple, should then marry her, a marriage which would have required the sanction of the rabbi's and hence the community; and be allowed to live peaceably in an area that had once been known as Samaria. Jesus had no genealogy, save that of His mother. Mirza-Abu'l-Fadl pointed out that the Jews, who had memorized genealogies, were not aware of the genealogy of Jesus. Yet He was not stoned, nor was His Mother, nor was Joseph. Consider the life of Moses. Also compare the reported miracles attending the death of Numa, the last king of the Romans. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.net/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.net/bahai-st http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist (public) http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (public)
Re: Firmness in the Covenant
David, Whenever he appears, He does what He pleases: Were He to decree as lawful the thing which from time immemorial had been forbidden, and forbid that which had, at all times, been regarded as lawful, to none is given the right to question His authority. Whoso will hesitate, though it be for less than a moment, should be regarded as a transgressor. (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 86) - Original Message - From: "David Friedman" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "Baha'i Studies" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2003 6:51 PM Subject: Firmness in the Covenant In short, from these Holy Utterances and those of His Holiness Christ, it becomes clear, evident and proved, that man should associate with people who are firm in the Covenant and Testament, and befriend the pure ones; because bad associates bring about infection of bad qualities. It is like leprosy; it is impossible for a man to associate and befriend a leper and not be infected. This command is for the sake of protection and to safeguard. Consider this text of the New Testament: the brothers of His Holiness Christ, came to Him and they said: "These are your brothers." He answered that His brothers were those who believed in God, and refused to associate with His own brothers. Likewise Qurratu'l-'Ayn, who is celebrated in all the world, when she believed in God and was attracted to the Divine Breaths, she forsook her two eldest sons, although they were her two oldest children, because they did not become believers, and thereafter did not meet them. She said: "All the friends of God are my children, but these two are not. I will have nothing to do with them." (`Abdu'l-Baha: Baha'i World Faith*, Pages: 437-438) I find this passage puzzling, as it seems to run counter to the rest of the teachings. The passage indicates that those who are firm in the Covenant, the pure ones, are believers in the new Revelation. So at the time of Tahirih that would be the Babi's and now it would be Baha'is. When it talks about belief in God it clearly is not talking about atheism vs theism, as the brothers of Jesus believed in God all along, as did Tahirih's sons. The problem of this passage is that it would indicate that non-Baha'is are "bad associates" or "lepers," whom we should not associate with. Jesus' brothers and Tahirih's sons were not bad people (I don't think), but 'Abdu'l-Baha is clearly implying that Jesus and Tahirih's avoidance of them due to their failure to recognize the new Revelation was a GOOD thing, something God would want. Folllowing the logic in this passage it would seem I would be supposed to cut off all contact with just about all my relatives, and break off some of my social contacts as well. Otherwise, according to this passage, I will definitely be infected by spiritual leprosy. In fact, I would surely already have it. How is this passage to be reconciled with the teaching to consort with the followers of all religions? Muslims are not considered Covenant-breakers by Baha'is, but here 'Abdu'l-Baha endorses Tahirih for treating them like we treat Covenant-breakers. Is hanging out with non-believers good or not? Are no non-believers 'friends of God'? Are Baha'is to follow the example of Tahirih? Has this passage been correctly translated? Regards, David _ Find your perfect match @ http://personals.xtramsn.co.nz with XtraMSN Personals! __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.net/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.net/bahai-st http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist (public) http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (public) __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.net/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.net/bahai-st http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist (public) http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (public)
Re: Ecclectic?
Richard, At 12:07 PM 12/22/2003 -0800, you quoted: It is neither eclectic in the presentation of its truths, nor arrogant in the affirmation of its claims (Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 58) That is not what I meant by eclectic. I was referring to an idea I introduced on this list several years ago concerning orthodoxy, orthopraxy, and Alvin J. Reines concept of polydoxy. Reines is a Reform Jew, and, as with Judaism, the Baha'i Faith, especially the post-Guardian Baha'i Faith, is, in my view, much more a religion about orthopraxy (right praxis) than orthodoxy (right doctrines or beliefs). In other words, we are members of a polydox Faith which requires only a few fundamental beliefs (basically, what is on the American declaration card) but many more fundamental behaviors. The Christianities have largely developed as religions concerned with orthodoxy. The Baha'i Faith, like Judaism, is more a religion about orthopraxy. Mark A. Foster * http://MarkFoster.net http://CompuServe.m.foster.name __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.net/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.net/bahai-st http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist (public) http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (public)
Re: Eclecticism
As a sociologist he presumably had in mind the totality of the Baha'i experience, so to speak: Baha'i community life and social norms, Baha'i intellectual life and philosophy, Baha'i art, and so on - IOW, the human aspect of the religion as opposed to the divine. Religion consists of two things, IMO: 1. What God wills for a particular Prophet to reveal, which is good because God will it (not the other way around). 2. The social institutionalization of that Will and how it is understood by different people. I am not a postmodernist, and I do not believe that no one can say which understanding is better than another. IMO, that represents a misunderstanding of the Guardian's position. However, I *do* believe that individual doctrinal understandings are, except with regard to the fundamental verities, not so important. For the most part, Baha'is should be left to believe what they want. Mark A. Foster * http://MarkFoster.net http://CompuServe.m.foster.name __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.net/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.net/bahai-st http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist (public) http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (public)
Re: Eclecticism
Richard, At 10:23 AM 12/24/2003 -0800, you wrote: Beyond that, Mark did not make it clear what he meant by unity of religions. IMO, there is no such thing as the unity of religions. Mark A. Foster * http://MarkFoster.net http://CompuServe.m.foster.name __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.net/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.net/bahai-st http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist (public) http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (public)
Year of patience
A few months ago someone here said that 'Abdu'l-Baha said in a Tablet that the year of patience is waived in the case of adultery. After reading the following passage in the Aqdas I seriously doubt there is such a Tablet: Should a woman be divorced in consequence of a proven act of infidelity, she shall receive no maintenance during her period of waiting. (p. 44) Adultery could count as a proven act of infidelity. This passage speaks of divorce as the consequence of infidelity, and speaks of the period of waiting, or year of patience, after this. Obviously, therefore, adultery is no exception to the rule, and there is still a year of patience. I was initially doubtful of the claim about 'Abdu'l-Baha because I don't think 'Abdu'l-Baha is able to add to the Aqdas, only clarify its meaning. Surely if there were an exception for adultery Baha'u'llah would have said so. I have never known 'Abdu'l-Baha to add anything to the Aqdas. If whoever referred to the Tablet of 'Abdu'l-Baha originally can provide more information I would be appreciative. Regards, David _ Download MSN Messenger @ http://messenger.xtramsn.co.nz - talk to family and friends overseas! __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.net/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.net/bahai-st http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist (public) http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (public)
Re: Prophecy
David, At 10:00 AM 1/5/2004 +, you quoted: I tend to take prophecy stuff with a grain of salt. If the Baha'i Writings say X is fulfilled, fine. But if you want to refute them, sometimes they're pretty easy. I agree with this person's assessment of prophecy. As I see it, prophecy (navuuwa.t), literally warning, can be either typological or refer to single events. It can be either conditional (impending) or decreed (ordained). The immediate function of prophecy is to orient people to a certain type of thinking. For instance, how could I work toward world peace if I did not know it was prophesied? However, the prophecy is generally only understood, in any significant sense, after it has been fulfilled and then (authoritatively) interpreted. Rationally, however, interpretations of prophecy, including those given by `Abdu'l-Baha in _Some Answered Questions_, can easily be refuted. I have never had much of a problem doing it myself! However, I accept His interpretations, not because I am persuaded by them, but because I recognize His authority to make them. Aside from that, I try to avoid prophecy as a proof of the Baha'i Revelation. Mark A. Foster * http://MarkFoster.net http://CompuServe.m.foster.name __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.net/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.net/bahai-st http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist (public) http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (public)
