RE: Skeletal Diseases of the Growing Dog
Mary's excerpt from "Skeletal Diseases of the Growing Dog: Nutritional Influences and the Role of Diet" "Nutrition is one of the single most important factors affecting development of the musculoskeletal system, and energy, protein, and calcium are some of the more critical nutritional components affecting skeletal development. When given in excess, they can be detrimental to normal skeletal growth.(1-7) Most pet owners in the United States feed commercially prepared diets, which are balanced and complete. The vast majority of developmental skeletal disorders diagnosed in veterinary practice occur in large and giant breeds and are associated with excess (i.e., inappropriate) intake of a commercial diet and/or supplementation." Mary, your post noted above was ike a breath of fresh air to me. Thank you. I've been reading the recent Berner-L posts about HD and other skeletal development issues. It seems to me that most posts are very focused on slamming anyone who disagrees that genetics is THE key factor in HD and other skeletal abnormalities. And I feel this greatly diminishes an open forum for discussion with diverse views (which can be a great way to learn new things). Personally, I feel the issue of skeletal development and abnormalities is a bit like the Kibble versus BARF issue: there are no absolutes, only variances. Moreover, I've been appalled at the lack of correct information posted. Interestingly, there seems to be a large volume of personal assumptions displayed as fact in many posts. My concern here is that this type of psuedo-information can cause erroneous beliefs in newbies who would learn from this list. While most of the posts I've read seem to me to be screaming 'genetics is the largest role in HD', very few posts have addressed the serious effects that improper nutrition can also have on canine skeletal formation - whatever the genetics dictates. This may or may not be fact, depending on which studies one elects to quote, but its my personal belief that a genetically sound dog (orthopedically speaking) can be seriously effected adversely by improper nutrition during growth stages. Further, I personally believe the effects of improper nutrition during growth stages can cause all sorts of skeletal dysfunctions and abnormalities. And I've witnessed several of these dogs (unlrelated events) in my lifetime. Were these dogs genetic freaks? That was my thought the first time I saw one. I thought I was seeing a genetic mutant of some sort. Thankfully, a nutritionist friend began my education in the stunning effects improper nutrition can have on anyone/anything in a growth stage. And my nephew, the PhD in genetics from UC Davis with a masters in Nutrition, keeps me up to date on stuff he thinks would interest me. Before anyone misquotes me, NO, I am not saying nutrition is THE key to HD. I am saying that it is my personal opinion and experience that improper nutrition - including improper feeding and supplementation - can be a huge factor in improper skeletal formation during canine growth cycles. Items like overabundance or lack of calcium and other like items can have huge effects on skeletal growth. My heart went out to the person who posted that they fed exactly as the breeder suggested and the puppy still persented HD. I hope the breeder stood behind that puppy and respected your adherence to diet. I personally wish more POs respected their breeder's diet requests as that helps our efforts to breed and grow better dogs. Again, I personally feel there are no absolutes in our discussion here. And I'm hoping for a more open forum tolerant of differing views. It's a great way to learn. Bernerly, Esther Wilson http://www.wilpowerkennels.com __ Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2
Re: Tobey turns 12 yrs 6 months
Libby Gotta love those old Berners, We can just see him taking the towel off the rack . :-)) Ray & Pat Ray & Pat Burgett Eaglecap Bernese Talee,Lexi,Boomer,Bell & Max www.goodbernerfood.com http://users.eoni.com/~eaglecap/ Draminski Ovulation Detector Rep
re: the nature/nurture HD discussion
Well, I was trying to catch up on all the HD posts before chiming in, and I'm glad I did. Sharon said if very well here. On 10 Nov 02, at 18:24, Sharon Montville wrote: > If a dog is fed too much, but does NOT have the genes > for HD, it will NOT develop HD. > > If a dog is fed too much, and DOES have the genes for > HD, it WILL develop HD. And so on. She also stated: > > As someone who loves this breed, I want to see a low > incidence of HD. So I prefer that dogs be kept lean > and are exercised appropriately. It may "mask" some > of the HD genes in my lines - this is one case where I > can live with the loss of data. I cannot imagine > telling my puppy buyers, "get 'em nice and fat and run > 'em til they drop, so I will really know whether they > got the HD genes or not." I can agree with giving owners all the advice and help you can to try to minimize the risk of HD in their pups. On the other hand, I firmly believe in treating potential breeding stock much differently. I got my boy Orry as a show prospect, and by extension, possible breeding prospect. Knowing this, while I fed him an appropriate large breed diet, I did not pamper him in any other way. He took the stairs from the day he came home, he ran with my other big dogs, he hiked with us and did everything else the rest of the dogs did. And guess what - despite his dad having excellent hips and mom having good hips, and no other apparent hip problems in the lines, at 18 months he was found GDC affected. Geez - his hips were so noticeably bad that I knew before I sent them in that he would not pass. (And I sent them in anyway!!) Now, here's the question - if I had pampered him with special exercise and special foods, etc, would he have passed his certification? And then would I have continued the HD problem without ever knowing it? It's certainly possible. After all, Orry's never been lame a day in his life. He is as sound as any dog I've seen. He does agility, jumps like a deer, dances on his back legs, and generally shows absolutely no sign that he has any orthopedic problems. So any breeder, or any vet for that matter, that says you don't need xrays cause the dog is sound is full of crap!!! And HD can show up even after generations of passing hips. Because it's a multigenic disease. This means that it takes more than one gene to cause it. No one knows just how many genes are involved, but lets take this for example. Just say it only takes 2 genes - gene H and gene D. Now the maternal line keeps passing down gene H, but somehow never gets bred to a dog with D, so no signs of hip dysplasia. You have the same situation with the paternal line - only they carry gene D. Now, Responsible Breeder decides that her girl with the great family history on hips (but who no one knows carries gene H) would make a great match with nice stud with an also excellent history of great hips (but with gene D). So you wind up with this litter of pups. The way genetics works, some of the pups only have gene H, some only have gene D, and then you have some who have both genes - HD. Now, all of a sudden this very good breeder is a horrible breeder because she has produced a dysplastic pup and should have known better. That doesn't mean that it's never the breeder's fault, or that it's all a crapshoot so we shouldn't even try. Here's the flip. Suppose that this breeder was an okay breeder - she really studies the pedigrees and health clearances of the dogs she breeds, but doesn't insist on clearances from her puppy buyers - because, after all, those dogs aren't going to be breed so it doesn't matter. She kept puppy A, who only had one of the 2 genes, so no HD. But, since she didn't get clearances on the rest of her pups, she has no idea that even though pup A isn't affected, he might still carry genes for HD, since several of his littermates were affected. And maybe they were like my boy - only affected on film. So they might not show symptoms until they were 5 or 6 or 7 years old, or never. How many litters could puppy A have in those years - and how many could be sired if puppy A were a really outstanding male? All before anyone had any clue that he or she might carry some genes for HD. Does that mean that he shouldn't be used at all. Nope, but that you want to be very careful with where you breed him (or her). Because, chances are that that first bitch and dog, you know the ones who separately carried the genes for hip dysplasia, were not the first time the genes had been paired up. But if you aren't checking ALL you produce, you can't say you haven't produced it! And you can't make any progress toward not producing it in the future. Melissa Melissa, Tyra and Orry Granite Falls, NC [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepage: http://home.talkcity.com/RedRoseRd/melissaz/index.html BEHAF Homepage: http://www.behaf.com
Re: Tobey turns 12 yrs 6 months
HAPPY BITHDAY TOBEY! And congrats Libby for producing a puppy that has brought so many years of happiness to his owners. May you receive Happy phone calls about Tobey for many more years! Yeah Tobey!!! Bernerly, Mary Jeff & Mary Chapdelaine SnoBear Berners [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://snobear.freeyellow.com
Re: Diet-related skeletal and joint diseases in dogs, was Innova -- HATE IT!
Hi Jennifer I knew someone could explain it a heck of a lot better than me. Thanks, that was a very good post. Ray Burgett Ray & Pat Burgett Eaglecap Bernese Talee,Lexi,Boomer,Bell & Max www.goodbernerfood.com http://users.eoni.com/~eaglecap/ Draminski Ovulation Detector Rep
Re: Appology to Mary-Ann
Mary-Ann you are sweet beyond words. Thank you for your comments :-) -- Gosh, I've got tears welling up in my eyes. As Karen Connors would say, I'm a marshmallow :-) Jenn Popp Healthy Paws Bones and Raw Food Diet http://www.healthy-paws.ca Toronto, Ontario (Canada) 416-264-1313 / email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Mary-Ann Bowman | Each of us has strong feelings about some topics but we | share a common commitment to the breed we love.
Re: Appology to Mary-Ann
Jennnifer It is easy for all of us to write things that do not come across as we intend. I appreciate your kind gesture, but I also suspect you did not have bad intentions. Each of us has strong feelings about some topics but we share a common commitment to the breed we love. Mary-Ann
Appology to Mary-Ann
Mary-Ann I made a comment to you in a previous post that was childish and flippant. I apologize for being so boorish. I truly regret the tactic in which I approached the subject of nutrition and HD. Jenn Popp Healthy Paws Bones and Raw Food Diet http://www.healthy-paws.ca Toronto, Ontario (Canada) 416-264-1313 / email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
re: the nature/nurture HD discussion
I think the point Mary-Ann is making is this: If a dog is fed too much, but does NOT have the genes for HD, it will NOT develop HD. If a dog is fed too much, and DOES have the genes for HD, it WILL develop HD. If a dog is kept lean and exercised an "optimal" amount(that is, enough to build muscle but not so much as to cause "overuse" injury), even if it has the genes for HD, these genes may not be expressed - the x-rays will pass (probably fair) and the dog will not be lame. If a dog is kept lean and exercised at the optimal level, but was dealt a really bad deck of HD genes, this dog will show severe HD on x-ray and may or may not have severe lameness as well. As someone who loves this breed, I want to see a low incidence of HD. So I prefer that dogs be kept lean and are exercised appropriately. It may "mask" some of the HD genes in my lines - this is one case where I can live with the loss of data. I cannot imagine telling my puppy buyers, "get 'em nice and fat and run 'em til they drop, so I will really know whether they got the HD genes or not." I don't think Mary-Ann is being close-minded about the impact of nutrition on development of HD. Nutrition can and does have an impact - but it is NOT the root cause of HD - GENETICS is the cause. Mary-Ann is absolutely right that breeders need to take responsibility instead of wagging their finger at the poor pup owner, who by the way is the one who will be the most impacted. It is fine to mention that nutrition is important. But when the statement "HD is a genetic disease" is omitted, this just gives breeders license to make dicey breeding decisions and keep raking in the big bucks for carelessly bred puppies. Sharon Montville - Firstrax - Colorado __ Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2
Re: Red Herrings!
The red herring refers to shutting people up by distraction -- for example, saying one "side" is close-minded. It gets us away from the topic and discussing whether one is close minded or not. Again, the reason that some of us are being so adamant about disputing that HD and ED are caused by anything other than genetics is because that line of thinking (diet caused the HD, jumping caused the ED, etc) absolutely hurts people, and it hurts the breed. I do not like to see people hurt. One person on this list wrote and told me how she was made to feel like a child abuser -- she was blamed by her breeder for causing the joint problems in her dog. Her story is not unique -- unfortunately. I am not trying to be unpleasant at all -- I just do not want any puppy owner with a dysplasic dog to believe that s/he is responsible. And I want to warn PPO's to run far away from any breeder who offers excuses for failed orthopedics or says that it has never happened in her lines. Hip and elbow dysplasia happens -- but a breeding should reflects efforts to avoid hip and elbow dysplasia, not disregard for what gets sent through the generations to some unsuspecting PPO -- who then gets blamed for feeding the wrong food! Mary-Ann Bowman Utah
Re: BERNER-L digest 4110
Hi all~ I am brand new to the list. I am looking for my first Berner puppy, and have just started looking at breeders in my area. All your comments about HD have been very informative and I will make sure that is a very high priority to look for. If anyone knows of any good Berner breeders in Ohio or nearby area I would love to talk to them and ask them some questions. Thanks Kim
Re: Red Herrings!
Amen Sandie, I was going to answer the Red Herring post but you've done it quite well. I will say that the subject line to posts on a certain topic should not be changed in the middle of the discussion because for those who do not wish to follow it are mislead into opening the post instead of just deleting it. And those who wish to keep up with the thread may miss threads. I have not tried to cram my opinion down anyone's throats, I only politely gave my opinion and offered articles illustrating my opinion. This offered differing opinions for all to digest. That is what I thought the list was about. Leadership to me goes hand in hand with the phrase, "Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow, Don't walk behind me, I may not lead, just walk beside me and be my friend." Friends discuss issues, listen to input, and if all else fails, agrees to disagree. In my "leaders" (and my friends) I want my input, opinions, and thoughts to be considered, as well as those of the others being "lead" not just looked down upon, picked apart, directed, my words twisted and struck out at. It's all about thought and consideration, fairness and equality. Not, I'll lead, you follow! My way or the highway. Bernerly, and "well" done with the previous subject, Mary Jeff & Mary Chapdelaine SnoBear Berners [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://snobear.freeyellow.com
Re: Red Herrings!
Hi, I've tried for hours now to keep out of this discussion. Obviously I failed This list is for open communication by everyone. Several people have stated their opinion and backed it up to their satisfaction. You have all stated your case if you will and view it as "fact". What is really beginning to bug me is that when others (who disagree with so or all of previous opinions) state their opinion and offer documentation as support on this or many other subjects, a select few deem it their responsibility to disagree, put down/insult (see subject line) the opinions/documentation of others, and restate their opinion as though by repeating themselves again and again the rest of the world will see "their" light. It's time to let everyone on this list have the right to their own opinion without it being bashed by those who disagree. Does anyone wonder why only a few people post publicly to help answer questions and any subject? Sandie Hawkins Sajan (Berners since 1975)
Thanks again for all the info and support.
Dear list mates, Thanks so much for all the well balanced information I received. It is greatly appreciated!! I do have a Chaplin chuckle for you. My sister in law and I work out together at my house. She brought an over night bag to change her clothes after. She left it in the kitchen. Wide open. Chaplin stole her bra and hid it with all his other collectibles under the stairs into his run. LOL He's already "The Ladies Man" :0 Thank you again and have a nice night!!! Jennifer
Tobey turns 12 yrs 6 months
Tobey called this afternoon. It was one of those calls that a makes a breeder's day. Today is Tobey's 12 year 6 month birthday, and he is going strong. His guardian makes sure to call fairly often these days, and I always wonder if this is "the call" to tell me he is gone. But not today. In fact they get a giggle out of calling, and remind me they will keep calling to tell me all is well. Tobey (Ch Bev's Baron v Greybern x CH Maine's Tough Tansy CD HIC) walks nearly a half mile most days of the week, and usually gets in a full mile one day a week. He loves Lamaderm kibble, tuna, swordfish, salmon, and halibut, eats all manner of veggies and fruits, and don't get between Tobey and his watermelon. And like his mother, Tansy, who he has so far outlived by 3 months, he BARKS. A lot. He currently takes long, deep sleeps, takes a towel off the rack in the bathroom and deposits it on the living room floor when annoyed, and was thrilled with the first snowfall this year in New Hampshire. He has a litterbrother who died of a tumor in his chest at 5, but the rest of Tobey's littermates lived to between 9 and 11 + years. He was one of 7 pups, 3 F and 4 M. Go Tobey! Libby Kesner and the Berner girls of Maine Voorheesville NY USA
Red Herrings!
It is amusing to me that those of us whose information seems grounded in evidence are called close-minded! Could I convince you now that the world is flat?? Of course not -- because we have evidence to the contrary! A belief or opinion does not change factual information/evidence. And isn't there a saying that if wishes were ponies, we would all ride!!! Wishing that hip and elbow dysplasia could be explained away by food or exercise doesn't make it true. And evaluate the source of evidence -- someone on the payroll of Science Diet is not as compelling (to me) as someone on the Board of OFA :) Mary-Ann Bowman
Re: Diet related skeletal and joint diseases in dogs
Canine Hip Dysplasia: A Symposium Held at Western Veterinary Conference, February 1995. Skeletal Diseases of the Growing Dog: Nutritional Influences and the Role of Diet Daniel C. Richardson DVM Diplomate, American College of Veterinary Surgeons Director, Advanced Research Hill's Pet Nutrition, Inc., Topeka, Kansas Skeletal development in the dog results from an interaction of genetic, environmental, and nutritional factors. The genetic component can be influenced when the populations are well controlled, accurate breeding records are kept, and a desire to improve the breed exists. Environmental factors such as housing and activity level are under the owner's influence. Nutrition is one of the single most important factors affecting development of the musculoskeletal system, and energy, protein, and calcium are some of the more critical nutritional components affecting skeletal development. When given in excess, they can be detrimental to normal skeletal growth.(1-7) Most pet owners in the United States feed commercially prepared diets, which are balanced and complete. The vast majority of developmental skeletal disorders diagnosed in veterinary practice occur in large and giant breeds and are associated with excess (i.e., inappropriate) intake of a commercial diet and/or supplementation. The most prevalent developmental orthopedic disorders are hip dysplasia and osteochondrosis. CANINE HIP DYSPLASIA Canine hip dysplasia (CHD) is the most frequently encountered orthopedic disease in veterinary medicine practice. This extremely common heritable disorder of the growing dog can be influenced by nutrition. The period from 3 to 8 months of age appears to be important in the development of CHD, with the first 6 months generally thought to be the most critical. Early developmental findings of CHD, including joint laxity and coxofemoral anatomic changes, have been documented within 2 weeks of birth. Rapid weight gain in German shepherds during the first 60 days after birth has been associated with CHD at a later age. Frequency and severity of CHD are influenced by weight gain in growing dogs, especially if sired by parents with CHD or with a high incidence of CHD in their offspring. Dogs with weight gains exceeding breed standards have a higher frequency of CHD as well as more severe CHD than dogs with weight gain below the standard curve.(8) In one colony of fast growing Labrador retrievers, the triradiate growth plates of the acetabula fused at 5 months as determined by conventional radiography; normal closure of these growth plates in pups growing at conventional rates has been reported to occur at 6 months. Early fusion in the acetabulum is speculated to result in bone/cartilage disparities in the future and to predispose to dysplastic changes.(9) Limiting food intake in growing Labrador retriever puppies has been associated with less subluxation of the femoral head and fewer signs of hip dysplasia.(10) Read more: and view resources http://www.msu.edu/~silvar/hips.htm Mary Jeff & Mary Chapdelaine SnoBear Berners [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://snobear.freeyellow.com
Re: Diet related skeletal and joint diseases in dogs
UNILATERAL HIP DYSPLASIA Author: Dr. Mary C. Wakeman, D.V.M. For 22 years, I have been working with large breeds of dogs in my veterinary practice. The numbers of giant and large breeds we see far exceed the numbers of medium and small individuals. One reason for this is my long history with this type of dog; another is that we do OFA hip radiographs without anesthesia, and for whatever reason, the owners and breeders of the large and giant breeds are, as a whole, far more sensitive to anaesthetic issues than those of smaller breeds. Over the course of these years, the kennels of many clients who raise large numbers of giants have been our laboratory. Following these breeds, these breeding lines, and individuals within these lines over their entire lifetimes, certain facts have become incontrovertible to us. We have never taken the time to go into our records and pull out the data to quantify these observations for professional journals, so the observations here must come under the heading of clinical findings. However, a few years back we looked into the records on Newfoundland dogs, and found our database held over 400 adult individuals. Several other large and giant breeds are represented in lesser, but still very substantial, numbers. Internet sources on hip dysplasia include a selection of abstracts from Medline for the years 1966 to 1996.( Medline Literature Search: Canine Hip Dysplasia, 1966 - 1996. http://www.working-retriever.com/library/chd6696.shtml ) At the end of this article are some of these abstracts found on that page which support observations made here. Many other references are present in the literature, but these suffice to illustrate the research available making mention of the items we are interested in: Dietary considerations Influence of injury and pain THE PREMISE One frequently encounters discussions which assert that hip dysplasia is 50% genetics and 50% environment. We prefer to think of it as 100% genetics, then 100% environment. Genetic considerations are the entirety of what we must as breeders consider. Once that puppy is born, environment is 100% of how well that puppy will do within the possibility of his genetics. Dogs with very good hips, congenitally, may have an injury and end up diagnosed as having 'unilateral hip dysplasia'. Individuals with very shallow sockets may be mobile and free of pain to an advanced age, if they have unlimited exercise. This is the entirety of what the owner of that puppy needs to concern himself with to provide the best possible care for his dog. Over the years, our observations of the kennel populations of giant breeds and their siblings living in private homes have led to the conclusion that there is no such thing as congenital unilateral hip dysplasia, but only acquired unilateral hip dysplasia. The kennel dogs, whose exercise opportunities are maximized, with several dogs of a similar age free to run and play all day and night in large paddocks, show us some interesting things. They grow much more slowly, because much of their food intake goes into play and running. They rarely (almost never) suffer an injury. They always have symmetrical hip sockets, even if they are very shallow. Their litter mates in private homes, where exercise is confined to an hour or two of intense play or jogging when their owners return from work, provide us with a different set of observations. They grow very large, very fast. They often suffer injury. They frequently have hip sockets of different depths. The implications of these observations are enormous, but very simple to understand. These large breeds grow much too quickly for their biology to keep up. They frequently show some degree of clinical rickets with some bowing of the forelegs, and have large soft joints due to the inability of the body to deposit calcium in the bone at a rate equal to the rate of growth. They often show uneven growth, with the rear end growing over a few weeks, then the front end trying to catch up. As the rear leg assembly grows disproportionately, and the puppy is 'high in the rear', the mechanical leverage that the muscles are able to exert across these straighter angles is much reduced. The result of this is a decreased ability of muscle to protect joints from injury. The owners of giant breed pets tend to overfeed their puppies, having with the best of intention, the inner desire to see a 'big dog' and to do nothing which might risk the dog not attaining the greatest possible size. Try as they may, some owners are just unable to restrict their puppy's diet. Owners are cautioned that their puppy needs a good deal of exercise, but their work schedules often conflict with their desire to do this. The result is a period of intense exercise. A 3 mile run, or a half hour of Frisbee. When a single puppy who lies around all day welcomes his owners in the evening, he is ill prepared for either intense exercise, or the uncertainty of footing on slippery floors and his alwa
Halloween pictures
Our computer has been down for awhile, but now I have finally got my Halloween pictures up on the web site. Just click on the banner at the bottom of the page. http://kellerdogs.users4.50megs.com We also have some cute pictures of the dogs on Katarina's site, so check those out too. Happy belated Halloween. Lotte Keller Sleipner & Robyn
Re: Constitutional Fragility
Lisa, I do not reccomend a diet that cannot be purchased with ease. I do not preach to lock up the puppies with "Rancher Ray's veal calves." I do preach to not use supplements in addition to kibble & water without discussing it with me first "please". I do hope unsupervised play with a puppy of eight weeks old and an adult 100 lb. dog will be avoided. There are a lot of things experienced owners and breeder's think of as just "common sense" but new owners need to be taught and mentored with. I'll never forget a lady bringing me her Rottweiler bitch and saying, "Can you please help her?" "We've done everything, bought everything we can think of and she won't get better, my husband wants to put her down." The poor girl had bare, thickened skin from behind her ears to her tail, but on that skin was every "tonic" known to man, in different colors. I took her in, first thing I did was to wash off all the "tonics" with a very mild hypoallergenic shampoo. I waited about a week and gave her a bath with a very mild flea shampoo and washed the bedding in her kennel run with the same. (She was kenneled to protect my dogs from whatever she may have been carrying.) ALL her hair grew back, skin became supple once again. I placed her in a wonderful new home and she never suffered any other skin problems. She had allergies to fleas. They obviously did not treat the premises, just the dog, their other dogs (yes, unfortunately they had more) just were not as sensitive, the poor things, to the fleas. They decided to bombard her with so many chemicals that she lost her hair completely in that area from the "medicines" and fleas. I had "common sense" therefore I was able to help her. Bernerly, Mary Jeff & Mary Chapdelaine SnoBear Berners [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://snobear.freeyellow.com
Osteosarcoma treatment with Transfer Factor
Family history, canine First Berner lived to the age of ten years four months; a little dysplastic in one hip and some allergies Second Berner lived to the age of thirteen years two weeks two days; cured of mast cell cancer via surgery Died of large cell lymphoblastic lymphosarcoma Oh, had HD no surgery required Third Berner lived to the age of nine years six months; died of synovial cell sarcoma, to which he lost a leg Most of his litter died of histiocytosis prior to him and a few other cancers; litter mates lived in homes all over the country One died at a young age of meningitis Fourth Berner healthy as can be until age six years ten months when immune-mediated polyarthritis diagnosed and now has osteosarcoma New non-Berner Sennunhund pup is one year old. No health issues at all. I repeat, NONE! Lisa Allen _ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
Re: Diet-related skeletal and joint diseases in dogs
List Members, I do not think that anyone involved in this thread believes that hip dysplasia is NOT genetic. Of course it is genetic. The point is that there is data that indicates certain hip/bone problems can be caused or ?exacerbated by improper diet and/or exercise. (And that said I do not advocate crating up puppies like veal calves to "save" or "hide" joint problems") And furthermore, If a breeder feels the need to "blame" a puppy owner for "causing" the puppy's ortho problems maybe the "three fingers pointing back at them" should indicate that they should have been a closer mentor for their puppy owner?? So now, how would it be "responsible" to tell puppy owners that, "I've done the best I can to assure that this puppy's parents, sibs., etc have been certified free of dysplasia, now we'll just see how it goes, we can't do anything else because it is ALL up to genetics." Why would it be "irresponsible" for a breeder to do the best they can to breed from HD certified lines/individuals AND inform the puppy owners that there are risks that can be avoided or lessened in raising a large breed puppy? As far as E.A. Corley is concerned, he may sign my OFA certificates and be a highly respected individual but I do not take him as a "God." There are other orthpedic surgeons and specialists that have opinions that differ from his. Addtionally, he signs the certs. but the rating is the consensus of three different vets, and then with each additional submission you get three other vets opinions from all over the USA that I don't know from Adam. (But that is another subject.) I think all hopes of growing intellectually stop when you decide to close your mind to further opinion and learning experiences. I don't think anyone would be on this continent if people never got past "the world is flat" theory. : ) I am going to post portions of two articles and the urls for the complete articles. Yes, these are only two opinions among many, many, but it is additional experience and opinion to digest. I'll post in two e-mails to avoid length limits. Bernerly, Mary Jeff & Mary Chapdelaine SnoBear Berners [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://snobear.freeyellow.com
What about house hold plants??
Thanks for the tips for the plants. I bought the spray Grannick's bitter apple for indoor plant to keep my puppy out of my indoor plants. (x-mas cactus, fig tree, norfork (sp) pine and a fig tree, orchards. I still wouldn't trust it on any fatal plants. Thanks again for the tip! Jennifer Delannoy Chaplin
Re: Diet-related skeletal and joint diseases in dogs,
It was said here: "Two HD dogs should never be bred nor a repeat breeding of two dogs that together produced HD for their genes together tho excellent alone make the complete puzzle of HD ." ***I maintain that it is far more likely than not, that any Berner and any pair of Berners has the potential to produce HD if bred often enough. Likewise, I believe it is highly unlikely ANY male and female berner pair would produce 100% normal hips if bred together for 5 litters of 6 pups each for a total of 30 pups. ***HD is indiginous to our breed and will, at best, be reduced in incidence and severity by judicious breeding. Meanwhile eliminating dogs who never produce mast cell cancer (inherited) because they produced a low incidence of HD (compared to the breed average), seems unwise. ***HD is a horrible disease for those dogs affected with it severely. Breeders should use dogs who have produced it with extreme caution and forethought. Ruth Reynolds Pioneer Bernese www.jersey.net/~mountaindog/rar
Osteosarcoma treatment with Transfer Factor
Has anyone, especially the medically-minded on the list, heard of the following bone cancer treatment? A bit of backgound; my parents (Michigan) of blessed memory had a dear friend who is also a physician. One day the physician's neighbor came over in tears; his Saint Bernard had just been diagnosed with osteosarcoma. Physician friend goes so far back in my family, late 1940s, early 1950s that he continues to keep in touch with me and sister. Physician called me a few days ago. I called back and left a message that my beloved dog had just been diagnosed with osteosarcoma so I was feeling quite sad. Got a message back from him to call soon because he had some news to share regarding osteosarcoma treatment. Neighbor's Saint Bernard was treated with something called Transfer Factor (TF). The discoverer of such, Dr. Fudenberg, believes that tumors are due to an infection, possibly connected in some way to dog's housemates, even if they are human. Says to grow tumor in culture and add TF and see if it inhibits tumor growth. Blood would be taken from the human household member (maybe other dogs too???) and the lymphocytes would be subject to ultrasound to fracture the membranes. Then you get the TF and apply it to the tissue culture. The doctor that administered treatment to the Saint Bernard is a Professor Emeritus at Michigan State University and I have e-mailed him and Dr. Fudenberg for more information and will also call both. Physician friend said Senator Kennedy's son that had bone cancer was treated in this manner and that Saint Bernard did achieve a remission. I have also telephoned family physician friend to obtain his neighbor's phone number. Dr. Fudenberg is quite famous in the medical community and has done ground-breaking work in immunology. Websites pertaining to such are http://www.nitrf.org/cirriculum.html http://www.nitrf.org/career.html http://www.colostrumresearch.org/Colostrum_Info/colostrum_transferFactors.htm Knowledge is power. Lisa Allen _ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
re: Diet-related skeletal and joint diseases in dogs,
Two littermates raised by their breeder. One develops moderate HD by age 1. The other has normal hips at age 4 years. We know that their environment is the same. We do not know if their genetics are the same because each littermate inherits a unique set of chromosomes from their parents. How can environment possibly affect these two individuals so differently? Ruth Reynolds Pioneer Bernese www.jersey.net/~mountaindog/rar
Re: Diet-related skeletal and joint diseases in dogs, was Innova -- HATE IT!
- Original Message - From: "Jennifer Popp" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> What you eat is important, no one is saying it ain'tit just ain't the cause of HD and I like to see a well fed dog, nutrition is important for every living thing. Rusty C & Good Company
Constitutional Fragility
Let's see... I have a farm in rural Montana where I raise cattle and goats and am on my way to another state to pick up my new Berner pup. The family is so excited! Since the breeder knew it was going to help on the farm, herding the cattle; I only have five head and guarding the kids (baby goats), good grief, what a shock it was when "she" sent me home with a new kibble that I have to order from Mississippi at least two weeks in advance, told me pup could not even toddle about the farm behind me or his bones would surely become deformed, informed me he could absolutely not play with my adult Border Collie or mutt until he was at least a year old and if the neighbor's dog (don't know if she gets vaccinated or not) should escape her pen and wander over, well, the exposure to all the diseases she must harbor could surely play havoc with my new pup's immune system... Should a farm dog be born with this fragile a consitution and, since, right now, they are, at an alarming rate, consider the "mess" we leave for our great-great grandchildren when they decide to breed Berners; pups will have to be sent to their new homes with those doggy wheelchairs you see in the Product section of "Dog Fancy." (Rancher Ray is a fictional character) The scenario is all too real. Lisa Allen _ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
Constitutional Fragility
Let's see... I have a farm in rural Montana where I raise cattle and goats and am on my way to another state to pick up my new Berner pup. The family is so excited! Since the breeder knew it was going to help on the farm, herding the cattle; I only have five head and guarding the kids (baby goats), good grief, what a shock it was when "she" sent me home with a new kibble that I have to order from Mississippi at least two weeks in advance, told me pup could not even toddle about the farm behind me or his bones would surely become deformed, informed me he could absolutely not play with my adult Border Collie or mutt until he was at least a year old and if the neighbor's dog (don't know if she gets vaccinated or not) should escape her pen and wander over, well, the exposure to all the diseases she must harbor could surely play havoc with my new pup's immune system... Should a farm dog be born with this fragile a consitution and, since, right now, they are, at an alarming rate, consider the "mess" we leave for our great-great grandchildren when they decide to breed Berners; pups will have to be sent to their new homes with those doggy wheelchairs you see in the Product section of "Dog Fancy." (Rancher Ray is a fictional character) The scenario is all too real. Lisa Allen _ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
Re: Diet-related skeletal and joint diseases in dogs, was Innova -- HATE IT!
Dittoditto...and double ditto to every thing Mary-Ann said, well put. HD is genetic, nutrition and environmental things can exaserbate it but it is from the genes. Two HD dogs should never be bred nor a repeat breeding of two dogs that together produced HD for their genes together tho excellent alone make the complete puzzle of HD . Rusty C & Good Company
Re: Diet-related skeletal and joint diseases in dogs, was Innova -- HATE IT!
It is because of talk like this a lady has decided to breed two HD dogs and "breed out the HD with diet" Talk like this makes me cry, I know the pain that will comeand by the way, had anyone else had my HD fella the dysplasia would have probably not been found, the ortho said he was not HDha. Food and supplements have kept him from demonstrating on the outside what is there on the inside. Rusty C & Good Company
Re: Diet-related skeletal and joint diseases in dogs, was Innova -- HATE IT!
On Sun, 10 Nov 2002 16:58:59 -0500 "Jennifer Popp" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Surely you don't suggest that we pick the best > breeding > pair and leave it at that? Why then, are some breeders adamant about > feeding > said puppies well into their adult years? If I remember correctly, I > was > sent home with specific feeding instructions when I got my first > dog Many breeders give specific feeding instructions so that novice buyers don't feed the cheapest food out there, nor do they want the pup to be overfed. Some breeders have it as part of their contract that if you don't feed "brand X" then their guarantee is nul and void. I feed a brand of food that is difficult for my buyers to find on the market so I give them a list of foods I have found to be comparable and acceptable. I tell them how much to feed and how often. How many times do we see on the L new owners asking what to feed, how much to feed and how often even after they have recieved instructions. If overfeeding were the reason puppies developed HD, then all fat puppies would be seen to have it. There has to be that genetic predisposition to develope HD there for the problem to occur. This may be one of those topics some of us may never believe in. Susan Ablon Gweebarra BMD Balch Springs, Tx http://www.pageweb.com/gwebara
Re: Diet-related skeletal and joint diseases in dogs, was Innova -- HATE IT!
There will be breeders that do not take responsibility for selecting the best specimens for their breeding program and there are those who do. To even suggest that by placing at least some of the blame on nutrition would give these reputable breeders an 'out' is quite a statement. I too believe we need to do our best in eliminating genetic problems, but I don't believe the buck stops at breeding practices. The possibility that nutrition can be a contributing factor to skeletal development would, in my opinion, make both breeder and puppy owner make sound decisions beyond who the parents are. Surely you don't suggest that we pick the best breeding pair and leave it at that? Why then, are some breeders adamant about feeding said puppies well into their adult years? If I remember correctly, I was sent home with specific feeding instructions when I got my first dog. Jenn Popp Healthy Paws Bones and Raw Food Diet http://www.healthy-paws.ca Toronto, Ontario (Canada) 416-264-1313 / email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Mary-Ann Bowman | The problem with perpetuating inaccurate information about the origins of HD | is that it allows breeders to blame puppy owners for HD, and to not take | responsibility for their breeding decisions. I believe we have a responsibility to do our best to avoid | producing genetic problems
Re: Poisonous Plants & Flowers and other hazards
Hi Anne, The idea of one leaf killing a child came from a Japanese child dying after ingesting poinsettia plant parts. I guess if he ate the plant he could have gotten ahold of something else too? Cornell still lists poinsettias as poisonous. The Government still lists as poisonous. UC Davis lists toxic effects though not as drastic as the fatal effects. Colorado State says most commercially grown poinsettias are harmless but other poinsettia family members aren't. The site I quoted (last url) says death. I think I'd still rather be safe and keep them out of reach of my grandchildren and doggies. : ) Life is too short already! http://www.ansci.cornell.edu/plants/comlist.html http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~djw/Plantnam.html http://envhort.ucdavis.edu/ce/King/PoisPlant/tox-com.htm http://www.vth.colostate.edu/poisonous_plants/index.cfm http://www.frostatiers.com/flowers.htm Bernerly, Mary Jeff & Mary Chapdelaine SnoBear Berners [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://snobear.freeyellow.com
Re: Diet-related skeletal and joint diseases in dogs, was Innova -- HATE IT!
On Sun, 10 Nov 2002 15:49:42 -0500 "Jennifer Popp" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > C'mon Mary-Ann, you're bright enough to allow yourself to think just > *maybe* > there is something else to consider here. If we close a book based > on > 'current' findings, where would that leave any scientific > advancements? Jenn I don't think MaryAnn was being defensive when she posted back. It's just amazing to find that after 40 yrs of study, that we still won't accept that we have dogs that can and do produce HD and it is a genetic problem not the fault of the poor puppy buyer I am personally aware of "responsible" breeders who have told puppy buyers that the reason their dog has HD is due to the type of food fed, the amount of exercise given, the type of flooring in their homes, etc. When breeders stop finding excuses for HD other than the genetic cause we may continue to see progress made in how many affected dogs we produce. I don't care if your dog is fat, never walked, hikes 10 miles a day or is fed BARF or kibble, if the genetic predisposition is there then you will have HD. You are correct that HD is a disease of development. (a genetically transmitted disease of development)Overfeeding can contribute to the severity of the disease in the genetically inclined puppy. The type of overfeeding can be BARF or kibble. Lack of exercise as well as too much exercise can contribute to the severity of HD in the genetically affected puppy. Much of what contributes to HD is intertwined but the common factor is that the pup is genetically predisposed for the disease. Susan Ablon Gweebarra BMD Balch Springs, Tx http://www.pageweb.com/gwebara
Re: Diet-related skeletal and joint diseases in dogs, was Innova -- HATE IT!
I do not feel at all defensive so am not sure why there is that misperception. Exasperated perhaps, but not defensive :) The problem with perpetuating inaccurate information about the origins of HD is that it allows breeders to blame puppy owners for HD, and to not take responsibility for their breeding decisions. The truth is that hip and elbow dysplasia are genetic -- and so it is up to breeders to make responsible decisions about these inherited conditions. When bad orthopedics show up, blaming the puppy owner is not helpful to anyone -- nor is it fair. Bad orthopedics will happen even when one has generations of clearances -- and that is nobody's fault. As Ray suggested recently, we can't eliminate all dogs that have a chance of producing a genetic problem or there would be no breeding dogs at all. On the other hand, the fact that bad genetic things happen does not mean we should throw up our hands and breed dogs with wild abandon :) I believe we have a responsibility to do our best to avoid producing genetic problems, especially ones like hip and elbow dysplasia that have the potential to cause pain, cost lots of money, and limit functioning. I also believe we have a responsibility to provide accurate information for those new to our community, and while it is true that environmental factors can impact the progression of HD, there is no question that it is a genetic disease. Mary-Ann Bowman Utah
Re: Hello, I'm new to the list.
- Original Message - From: "Jennifer Delannoy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > How can > you add calcium to your dogs diet? In your own experiences or opinion(s) > what is the better food? Going on the advice of a research vet I used to ride with at Cornell U, I put all my puppies on an all-lifecycle high quality kibble, supplimented with whatever healthful table scraps we might have in the house that day, and did no further tinkering. Ask your breeder what she prefers for her lines and why--I am very careful with suppliments as they can cause all kinds of problems. When I was a wild life rehabber we had several ex-pet squirrels who could not be released due to bone deformaties and impromper bone flexibility because they had been fed 'treat nuts' by their owners. > He runs off with his water dish spilling it every where. Big honking ceramic dish. >He loves to steal > coffee cups and lick out the remainder. Put them up high. >He is an excellent counter surfer. Stack a bunch of empty soda cans on the counter, with a string run through the tabs. Tie the string to some really good bait--a stinky meat wrapper, for instance. Puppy grabs wrapper, turns to run, has bajeezus scared out of him by crashing cans. > It's like having toddlers all over again. Yes. >He is sucking on the corner of > his fav, receiving blanket. If he doesn't have that he'll steal sneakers > and chew. Put the shoes away in a closet when they are not on your feet. Your bad, not his. :) >How can you ease the teething. Frozen bagels, frozen baby carrots, wet a dishrag, twist it tight, freeze it. Give it to him to chew on. Be sure you supervise so he does not shred and eat it. > Do your pups chase the mop? the vacuum? Yes. >he also > howls? I try and correct him, but howls even louder. In what situation? In his crate? When on a leash? If he is asking for your attention while you try to watch TV or read? For the first, try a shaker can. For the second, give him some work. For the third, completely withhold attention. Don't even look at him. Have fun! Eileen Morgan The Mare's Nest http://www.enter.net/~edlehman --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.410 / Virus Database: 231 - Release Date: 10/31/2002
Re: Diet-related skeletal and joint diseases in dogs, was Innova -- HATE IT!
Mary-Ann, thanks for that very informative information from the OFA. I may be misreading your tone, but you come across as rather defensive. You'd think I suggested Many-Ann Bowman has caused nutritionally induced HD in her dog(s) :-). I suppose it would be a glorious thing if everything was that cut and dry. But when we allow ourselves to step outside our comfort zones, new information might seep in. C'mon Mary-Ann, you're bright enough to allow yourself to think just *maybe* there is something else to consider here. If we close a book based on 'current' findings, where would that leave any scientific advancements? Jenn Popp Healthy Paws Bones and Raw Food Diet http://www.healthy-paws.ca Toronto, Ontario (Canada) 416-264-1313 / email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Mary-Ann Bowman | Let's just see what OFA has to say about this -- this is from their website...
Re: WOW, thanks!
- Original Message - From: "Jennifer Delannoy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > I wanted to clarify what I meant about correcting. I was referring to this > loud, long howl he does. I ask him to shhh, command quiet, stop, etc. He > just gets louder. Maybe I'll try ignoring it. I have a bad memory of an > Irish Wolf Hound we had growing up that howled at night and my mom used to > get threatening phone calls in the middle of the night. Try a shaker can--a soda can filled with pennies or pebbles which will make a loud, startling noise. He howls, you shaker can right back. That often dissuades them by shocking them into silence. :) Eileen Morgan The Mare's Nest http://www.enter.net/~edlehman --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.410 / Virus Database: 231 - Release Date: 10/31/2002
A planning professional.
entlebucher swiss quilt for PRA research
> We are going to make an Entle quilt this winter I am working on ideas for a Berner quilt - but my entle - Caspar - lived with me first - so he gets the first quilt. Ursa gets the Berner quilt next... LeAnn > theme - What we like to do with our entlebuchers > Blocks - 91/2 x 9 1/2 inches > Medium - embroidery, fabric paint, quilted, etc. > Looking for interested club members to make a block for the quilt. > Quilt will be assembled and used as a raffle-fundraiser for PRA research. > Raffle tickets will be available from Kathy Marshall. > Drawing will be held at Entlefest in Sept. 2003. > > Material for squares can be obtained from LeAnn - > Squares will be due back by March 1, 2003. > > For information, your square(s), contact: > NEMDA quilt committee > Paws in stiches > Chair - LeAnn Zogg > e-mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Please send me a private e-mail with name postal address phone number
Hip Dysplasia
The best series of articles about hip dysplasia were in Dog World, and written by John C. Cargill, MA MBA, MS and Susan Thorpe-Vargas, MS. I'm going to quote from some of the articles here: >From the 1st article: Conclusions: Hip dysplasia is not something a dog acquires; a dog either is genetically dysplastic or it is not. Initially, the hips of affected and normal puppies are indistinguishable. Later in life, an affected animal can exhibit a wide range of phenotypes, all the way from normal to severely dysplastic and functionally crippled. You should take away from this article the idea that hip dysplasia is genetically inherited. Never believe a fellow breeder or fancier who claims there is no hip dysplasia in his or her line. Never believe breeders who claim that if their breeding lines carried the genes for hip dysplasia they would be able to see it in their animals' gaits. This just is not true. >From the 2nd article: Conclusions: While environmental effects, to include nutrition and exercise, may play a part in mitigating or delaying the onset of clinical signs and clinical symptoms hip dysplasia remains a genetically transmitted disease. Only by rigorous genetic selection will the incidence rate be reduced. In the meantime, it makes sense to have lean puppies that are exercised regularly and to avoid breeding any animals from litters that showed signs of hip dysplasia. It is probable that even normal exercise levels may increase the phenotypic expression of CHD of a genetically predisposed dog. Stay away from calcium supplementation of any kind; all it can do is hurt. There is no conclusive evidence tat vitamin C can prevent hip dysplasia, but there is some evidence that vitamin C may be useful in reducing pain and inflammation in the dysplastic dog. Let your conscience and your veterinarian be your guides in supplementing with vitamin C. Fortunately, large doses of vitamin C are readily excreted, but it is still possible to cause untoward side effects with megadoses. -- If anyone wants copies of their 8 part series, I'll be happy to email it to you. It's an excellent series of articles, and the discuss all of the pertinent studies. Pat Long (& Luther) Berwyn PA
Re: Diet-related skeletal and joint diseases in dogs, was Innova -- HATE IT!
Oh no -- not again :) Let's just see what OFA has to say about this -- this is from their website: "Breeding Guidelines Hip dysplasia appears to be perpetuated by breeder imposed breeding practices, but when breeders and their breed clubs recognize HD as a problem and establish reduction of HD as a priority, improvement of the hip status can be accomplished without jeopardizing other desireable traits. Prospective buyers should check pedigrees and/or verify health issues with the breeder. If suitable documentation is not available, assume the worst until proven otherwise. Information on the family background is needed on all normal dogs, whether excellent, good, or fair. Do not ignore the dog with a fair hip evaluation. The dog is still within normal limits. For example; a dog with fair hips but with a strong hip background and over 75% of its brothers and sisters being normal is a good breeding prospect. A dog with excellent hips, but with a weak family background and less than 75% of its brothers and sisters being normal is a poor breeding prospect. OFA's Recommended Breeding Principals Breed normals to normals Breed normals with normal ancestry Breed normals from litters (brothers/sisters) with a low incidence of HD Select a sire that produces a low incidence of HD Replace dogs with dogs that are better than the breed average Preliminary Evaluations Preliminary evaluations can be performed after 4 to 5 months of age. OFA evaluations are about 90% accurate when compared to follow-ups of the same animal at 24 months of age. The reason to obtain preliminary status is to minimize the emotional and financial burden if the animal is found to have hip dysplasia. Can Environment or Food Cause or Prevent HD? No, hip dysplasia is a multiple gene, inherited disease. Environmental factors, like high caloric diet during the rapid growth phase, may exacerbate changes in dysplastic hips but will not create hip dysplasia. There also is no evidence in the scientific literature that supplements (i.e Vitamin C) will prevent hip dysplasia. Reduced caloric intake and glucosamine products in immature animals genetically predisposed for hip dysplasia may lessen the pathologic changes associated with hip dysplasia." Mary-Ann Bowman Utah
Re: Poisonous Plants & Flowers and other hazards
In a message dated 11/10/2002 1:42:24 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << Poinsettia: Leaves are fatal. One leaf can kill a child. >> I'm not sure where this information originally came from. While the poinsettia is a member of the Euphorbia family and contains a latex type sap that can sicken and irritate, but my personal experience denies the fact that ONE leaf can kill a child. I had a litter of three 6 week old Bichon Frise along with a 1 1/2 yr. old Samoyed completely denude a growing poinsettia and not even vomit, let alone have any lasting symptoms or illness. I strongly recommend keeping houseplants away from your dogs, but don't panic unnecessarily. Certainly, do call the vet right away if your animals have ingested any suspicious plant material or are vomiting frequently with no explaination! Also, the houseplant, Diffenbachia (Dumb Cane) also contains calcium oxylate crystals in all parts of the plant and can cause severe swelling of the mouth and throat if chewed. Anne Copeland, Flash,TDI/CGC (Berner, 8 yrs.) & Gypsy TDI/CGC(Rescue Cavalier,1 1/2 yr.) NE ILL [EMAIL PROTECTED] BMDCSEW Vice President Ty's memorial page: http://www.geocities.com/workingyorkie/ty.html Gypsy's page:http://hometown.aol.com/annes4/Gypsy.html
For those that missed the fun...
http://www.hotdogfx.com/allaire/Allaire_Park1.htm
Re: house training
Hi I am not sure where you got that information (puppies should not go on formal walks) but I am going to have to disagree :) Puppies should indeed be walked -- they need the exercise and the training in leash manners, not to mention the socialization. The walks should indeed be short at first but I see no trouble at walking a six month old puppy for a good 20 or more minutes! Yikes -- who could stand a puppy that was not walked??!!! Mary-Ann Bowman utah
Diet-related skeletal and joint diseases in dogs, was Innova -- HATE IT!
I'm a little late on the thread of hip dysplasia being genetic in nature, but thought I'd chime in here anyway. Someone mentioned that hip dysplasia is genetic and is not caused by nutrition [end of story]. But I'd like to offer a differing opinion on that... Hip dysplasia is a disease of development; puppies are not necessarily born with it. The problem can develop during rapid growth in larger sized animals. Containing growth rate reduces both the frequency and severity of HD in dogs. Most processed dog foods indicate feeding larger breed dogs greater amounts than their metabolism can process (called the fudge factor). This is done to ensure the pup receives adequate nutrition but results in overfeeding and obesity. This, of course, is incompatible with the development of optimal skeletal growth. Nutrition alone does not decide the final size of an adult dog. Underfed puppies eventually grow to the same size as overfed ones. Studies on overfeeding to promote weight gain in GSDs during the first two months of life showed an increased incidence of HD at a later age. Many degenerative diseases of bones and joints have a common basis. And dogs do inherit a tendency toward these diseases. However, nutrition -- specifically excesses of energy, specific vitamins, minerals and to some extent proteins -- affects bone development in many ways that are mostly detrimental. Nutrition does affect the development of HD and other problems, problems that proper feeding can control. Jenn Popp Healthy Paws Bones and Raw Food Diet http://www.healthy-paws.ca Toronto, Ontario (Canada) 416-264-1313 / email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
WOW, thanks!
Thanks, for the article and for all you input. I agree about puppy proofing the house. He just seems once step ahead of me and I grew up with dogs all my life. BTW, we took a few weeks of from puppy class. We have about a doz. 8 to 12 yr old kids that play with him. He meets them at the bus stop everyday. I wanted to clarify what I meant about correcting. I was referring to this loud, long howl he does. I ask him to shhh, command quiet, stop, etc. He just gets louder. Maybe I'll try ignoring it. I have a bad memory of an Irish Wolf Hound we had growing up that howled at night and my mom used to get threatening phone calls in the middle of the night. Thanks again for your help. Jen
Re: house training
Hi Terry ... I can't really help you much on the training part. Crate training is great, I used it for my puppy and it was great. Hopefully Inga will settle in soon and get used to your routine and where she needs to pee. One important thing to try is while you have her outside, do not play with her--or let her play (on lead?) until she's pee'd ... then MASSIVE PRAISING when she does. The other reason I write is the walking. Especially because of the size and growth rate with Berners -- you really shouldn't take her on any walks (1 block or 20) until at LEAST 6 months old!! Obedience class is okay, but formal walks shouldn't be part of her daily routine so soon!! Puppies playing on their own is fine, they can stop when they want, etc. But walking espcially on pavement, is so hard on puppy's growing bones -- you can hurt them without knowing it. Especially as they grow, and suddenly are the size of, or bigger than, other grown dogs ... but they're still babies. Maybe you can convey this to your dog walker -- maybe get her a wagon to take your baby to the dog park for romps?? (Then, when she's bigger, she can pull the dog walker in the wagon!! heehee) Best of luck, Tracey: new mom of Beau the Brilliant, Beau the Magnificent, Beau the Handsome Man -- and long time mom of boy Anthony, and Kjersti puppy :o) (note: I didn't say long walks can CAUSE HD ... but it could contribute; it s just like with a human baby -- at 1,2,3 years of age ... they really can't walk all that long!! Mom & Dad have to pick them up or put them in a stroller... it's the same with puppies!!) ---Original Message--- I think one berner manual said take your pup out for a walk a one minute per week old. If she doesn't go in 10 or 20 minutes what can you do? This will include dogwalker every day. I am sure our dogwalker is not going to be carrying this pup to the elevator like we do. Any feedback from the berner owner experts is always appreciated. I am sure as we experience the developmental issues with our pup I will asking for more assistance. Thanks again, Terry Bering .
RE: what is vWD, and more ...?
Tracey, There is a BMDCA Information Bulletin on the different health issues affecting Bernese, take a look there and then if you have any questions, I'll be happy to try to help answer them! www.bmdca.org click on BMD Info Series, then click on Health Issues in Bernese Mountain Dogs. Pat Long (& Luther) Berwyn PA
what is vWD, and more ...?
Mary-Anne ... LOVED your email!! As someone new to the land of Berner-health ... I know HD, ED, and OFA, and CERF'ing a dog ... we did this with the Buhunds ... but what's vWD? You also mentioned cardiac tests?? And I've also heard mention of genetic testing??? Please tell me more!!! Thanks! Tracey ---Original Message--- Ask about ages of death of the close relatives of a puppy -- and causes of death. These days you might want to ask if the mother or father of the puppies has ever had cancer. Ask about eyes, but remember that unless whole litters have been done, clear eyes on one doesn't mean much. What about heart clearances? I had occasion to check out a litter for a family, and asked the owner of the sire if he had a cardiac clearance or was vWD free-- she replied that they did not have those problems. I reminded her -- as I remind you -- that one does not know whether a problem exists or not unless the testing has been done. Mary-Ann Bowman Utah .
Tips on show grooming a Berner
Hi all ... Beau's doing great!! He's adjusted very well to our home and way of living. I was thinking of taking Beau to a show -- as a veteran (if I can find a veteran class that is) -- he's already a Ch ... but has been neutered (he's 11). That would seem to bet he only class he could show in. There are veteran classes in AKC shows right?? I know there are in KC shows in Britian Regardless ... my other dog isn't one that needs really any grooming at all for a show (bathe no earlier than 2 weeks before show, longer preferred for rough coat ... no real brushing, pretty easy!!) ... So, I'm looking for pointers on specific grooming things to do with the Berners. I'm going to guess that with the longer hair I'd want to only brush it while it's wet, like you'd do with other long haired breeds -- is that right?? I'm also not sure if he's been trimmed, or if it's natural that the hair on the top 1/2 of their body is naturally shorter than the hairs on the tail, backs of legs, stomach, and chest?? THANKS!! Tracey
Re: Escape artist
>Porter promptly walked over to the door, jumped up on > the handle and voila the door was open!! Who needs a dog door??!! Well, not only do my Bernese do this, but also my cats! And has been known for a goat even to arrive in the kitchen! Door handles no problem and the goats can even do latches. Any time I close a door to keep 'em out or in, I have to lock it and remove the key! Not just a Canadian thing, we are UK! Hmmm! An Animal thing!! They are very bright! All love, Jean, Sunny, Simmy, Barney and the Gang (Hah, we have doggie doors too!) http://www.angelfire.com/anime3/longlease/index.htm
Re: Hello, I'm new to the list.
Sounds like normal puppy behavior -- well, normal puppy behavior for a puppy that might need more supervision :) You are correct to say that it is like having a toddler, and therefore you probably know that they must be watched constantly in order to avoid trouble. Of course, when they are safely asleep in a confined space, there is a break but otherwise, I think it is normal and appropriate for a 4 month old puppy to need quite a bit of supervision. Just as a responsible parents would not "correct" a baby for crying or a toddler for being a little explorer, so too does a puppy need us to understand that s/he is just being a puppy -- corrections are not required since they are just fulfilling their job description. Instead, think about changing the puppy's environment to prevent bad habits from forming. How about a crock water bowl since that would be too heavy for the puppy to pick up? If shoes are not on the approved list of chew toys, then they need to be put away. Same thing with counter surfing for now -- keep food where he cannot reach it and counter surfing disappears :) He can't steal coffee cups if they are not left where he can get them. Puppies are just babies and we need to think in terms of correcting the environment rather than correcting the puppy -- just as we change the environment for a human baby. Many "bad" puppy behaviors go away with normal development. In addition to making the environment more conducive to appropriate behavior, it is also important to make sure that puppy gets adequate exercise and mental stimulation -- these things will make the puppy tired and a tired puppy is quite easy to manage :) You are training the puppy whether you mean to or not, so might as well train what you want. It sounds like it might be an excellent time to teach "leave it" and if your puppy is not already enrolled in puppy school, I would do that promptly. Normal puppy behavior is frustrating but remember it, like their puppy cuteness, is temporary. Good luck, Mary-Ann Bowman Utah Emma, Maize, Abra and the ten-pack (now three weeks old)
Re: Hello, I'm new to the list.
Hi Jennifer, Welcome to the list, and congratulations on the arrival of your new "baby" Have you asked your breeder about the issues and concerns that you have? I would do that first as you said they picked the perfect puppy for you so they might be best able to answer your questions. I know I tell my puppy owners to call me 24/7 if they have concerns that need addressing. Here is an article you may find interesting/helpful on puppies and calcium supplementation and other supplements etc. : The web address is: http://www.msu.edu/~silvar/hips.htm Calcium Plasma calcium concentration is tightly regulated by the body. This regulation is needed for the many calcium-dependent biologic processes, such as muscle contraction, hormonal release, and blood coagulation. The release of calcium-regulating hormones (parathyroid hormone [PTH], calcitonin [CT], and 1,25- dihydroxycholecalciferol [1,25 vitamin D]) is influenced by plasma calcium concentration. These hormones regulate calcium dynamics in the intestine, kidneys, and bone. Calcium excess is routed primarily to bone through the influence of the calciotropic hormones on target organs. Chronic, high intake of calcium in large breeds has been associated with hypercalcemia, concomitant hypophosphatemia, rise in serum alkaline phosphatase, retarded bone maturation, higher percentage of total bone volume, retarded bone remodeling, decrease in osteoclasts, and retarded maturation of cartilage. These changes cause disturbances in endochondral ossification (articular and epiphyseal).(6) When high calcium intake (calcium excess) is coupled with relatively little absorption from bone, severe pathologic changes occur in the young, growing skeleton that is unable to respond by normal remodeling and endochondral ossification. The clinical diseases associated with these changes are osteochondrosis, retained cartilage cones, radius curvus syndrome, and stunted growth.(1,6) Therefore, calcium excess is a major causative or contributing factor in the pathogenesis of skeletal disease in the growing giant-breed dog.(3-6) It is the absolute level of calcium, rather than the calcium/phosphorus ratio, that most influences skeletal disease.(11) Young, giant-breed dogs fed a diet containing 3.3% calcium (dry matter basis) and 0.9% or 3% phosphorus have significantly increased incidence of developmental bone disease. These dogs seem to be unable to protect themselves against the negative effects of chronic excess levels of calcium.(26) Calcium levels for a growth diet should be between 1% and 1.6% (dry matter basis). Often puppies are switched from growth to maintenance diets to avoid calcium excess and skeletal disease. However, because maintenance diets are generally of much lower energy density than growth diets, the puppy must consume more dry matter volume to meet its energy requirement. If the calcium levels (dry matter basis) are similar between the two diets, the puppy will actually consume more calcium on the maintenance diet. This is exemplified in the case of switching a 13-week-old Great Dane puppy from a typical growth diet (4.2 kcal/g and 1.6% calcium on a dry matter basis) to a typical maintenance diet (3.2 kcal/g and 1.4% calcium on a dry matter basis). The puppy would consume approximately 638 g of the growth diet containing 10.2 g calcium. To meet energy needs of 2680 kcal/day, this same puppy would consume approximately 838 g of the maintenance diet containing 11.7 g of calcium. Feeding treats containing calcium or providing calcium supplements further increases daily calcium intake. If the same 13- week-old, 20 kg Great Dane puppy were given two level teaspoons of a typical calcium supplement (calcium carbonate) in addition to the growth diet, it would more than double its daily calcium intake. This level is well beyond that shown to increase the risk for developmental bone disease.(11) Recent investigations produced osteochondrosis in the fetuses of ewes fed high levels of dietary calcium.(24) Because of the rapid growth rate of giant-breed dogs, they become "sentinels" for nutritionally influenced skeletal disease such as is seen with excesses in dietary calcium. Similar changes may be slower to surface and are not as easily identified in the smaller breeds. Regardless of the risks of high calcium intake, dietary calcium is a highly influential nutrient for skeletal development. I'd ask your breeder and vet before using any supplements. I tell my puppy owners, "Just because the pet supply sells it, does NOT mean it is good for your puppy." Best wishes, Mary Jeff & Mary Chapdelaine SnoBear Berners [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://snobear.freeyellow.com
High ALT, Dircet Bilirubin, Chloride
Had a full bloodpanel including thyroid drawn on Neala again. She had the first full one last June, then September and now again. On the first one her T4 was 0.76 Range (1.0-4.0) BUN 27 6-25 Creatinine 1.9 0.5-1.6 Osmolality, Calculated 316 (277-311) In September after taking Thyroid medication and Six Flavor Teapills BUN was19 so in normal range now Creatinine 1.8 and a bit less T4 2.02 and in normal range This time the vet send it to a different lab with different ranges(: Need to ask why. Bun went up to 26, but their range is 7-27 Creatinine stayed at 1.8 T4 at 1.7 What concerns me is the ALT value increase over the last year. 60 (12-118) 86 (12-118) 124 (5-60) Not sure why the range of the lab is so different. Her direct Bilirubin is not 0.2 (0-0.1) Chloride is 118 (105-115) >From what I read it's not good for the ALT to go up this high. With just loosing Caolan 2 month ago, would like to be extra special careful with her and do as much preventative that I can. She is eating a total BARF diet since 3 years and Pitcairn, kibble since 1year before this. She was fasted for the bloodwork. Thanks for anyone who can help me make sense about bloodwork. Need to talk to the vet next week. Sylvia Katvala with Neala and Lisa the cat Tucson, AZ
TDI/CGC Testing in Allentown, PA
Please feel free to crost post to other lists that might be interested. Thank you, Beth Schmoyer Snowden CGC, TDI Retired (4 3/4 years old) Misha BARC's Alot CGC, TDI ( 1year 9 months) Bethlehem, PA [EMAIL PROTECTED] Therapy Dogs International, Inc. (TDI) & American Kennel Club’s Canine Good Citizen Test (CGC) DATE: SUNDAY November 17th, 2002 PLACE: Pet Supplies Plus: 1014 Union Blvd., Allentown, PA TIME: Call for an appointment @ 610-759-2141 Please leave a message with your name & phone number. We will call you back with a testing time. PRE-ENTRY/PRE-REGISTRATION REQUIRED Your dog must be 1 year old. Please bring with you to the testing: 1. $10 cash, money order or check made out to Eileen Drummond 2. A copy of the actual rabies certificate (NO TAGS) 3. A copy of the dog license envelope (No tags please) 4. A brush for your dog 5. Your dog needs to be on a nylon slip lead or a buckle collar & a 6 foot leash. Special training collars such as pinch collars, head halters, etc. are not permitted in the TDI/CGC test. Please Pre-register by November 15th. We have room for 20 dogs to be tested on this date. Sponsored by Lehigh Valley K-9 Therapy Association Chapter 100 of Therapy Dogs International, Inc. http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/LVK9Therapy Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: 610-759-2141 PO Box 208 Nazareth, PA 18064
Hello, I'm new to the list.
Hello, I got my first berner , Chaplin, in August. He's now four months old. He's wonderful and I have to say the breeder(s) picked the perfect pup for our family!!! He's so loveable, but macho. lol I have 2 boys 13 months apart and he loves the rough and tumble! I do have a few questions: For the moment we are feeding Wellness 6 cups a day, and giving him vitamin C and E. I also, add Flax seed oil. How can you add calcium to your dogs diet? In your own experiences or opinion(s) what is the better food? Does it depend on your dog, budget? He's 4 months old and 52 pounds (moose on a leash..lol), but certainly not over weight. We give him Interceptor once a month. Welcome your opinions on that. All your input is welcomed as far as the nutritional part of his care, but..HELP ME with the annoying.. He runs off with his water dish spilling it every where. He loves to steal coffee cups and lick out the remainder. He is an excellent counter surfer. He stole a fruit salad and inhaled strawberries, blue berries, and grapes. It's like having toddlers all over again. He is sucking on the corner of his fav, receiving blanket. If he doesn't have that he'll steal sneakers and chew. How can you ease the teething. (he has plenty of toys, given him ice) any other ideas? Do your pups chase the mop? the vacuum? he also howls? I try and correct him, but howls even louder. I apologize for going on and on, but I am always looking for new ideas. Thanks in advance! Jen and Chaplin
Hip & Elbow Certification
Thanks Mary for the in-depth explanation of the numbers on the hip and elbow certification. I got the numbers on my Bentley, along with the certification, but had no idea what each number stood for. You made it so clear! Joyce Mills
