Re: the nature/nurture HD discussion
Sharon wrote: | I don't think Mary-Ann is being close-minded about the | impact of nutrition on development of HD. Nutrition | can and does have an impact - but it is NOT the root | cause of HD - GENETICS is the cause. Mary-Ann is | absolutely right that breeders need to take | responsibility instead of wagging their finger at the | poor pup owner, who by the way is the one who will be | the most impacted. | | It is fine to mention that nutrition is important. | But when the statement HD is a genetic disease is | omitted, this just gives breeders license to make | dicey breeding decisions and keep raking in the big | bucks for carelessly bred puppies. ***The point I am trying to make is that nutrition can cause HD in a dog. It is possible to improperly feed a puppy during it's developmental years and have a dog that has messed up hips as a result. I would never suggest that HD is not genetic, I don't think anyone could dispute that. But to say it's genes and only genes is (obviously in my opinion) incorrect. Nutrition can be responsible for a plethora of skeletal and joint diseases in dogs. One of these problems is hypertrophic osteodystrophy, which by definition means excessive nutrition resulting in bone malnutrition. Excessive intake of protein, energy, calcium and phosphorus accelerates growth and induces the problem. Many degenerative diseases of bones and joints have a common basis. And no one questions the fact that dogs inherit a tendency to develop these diseases. However nutrition, particularly excesses, affects bone development in many ways that are detrimental. Jenn Popp Healthy Paws Bones and Raw Food Diet http://www.healthy-paws.ca Toronto, Ontario (Canada) 416-264-1313 / email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: the nature/nurture HD discussion
In a message dated 11/11/2002 5:45:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ***The point I am trying to make is that nutrition can cause HD in a dog. It is possible to improperly feed a puppy during it's developmental years and have a dog that has messed up hips as a result. At the risk of upsetting both sides of this debate, I'm taking the plunge. g We KNOW with a reasonable degree of certainty (based on legitimate research) that genes can influence the development of HD. We KNOW with a reasonable degree of certainty (based on legitimate research) that nutritional factors can influence the development of HD. We DO NOT know with certainty whether nutritional factors alone can influence the development of HD. The reason we don't know this is simple, we don't have a genetic test to determine whether a dog is carrying the genes for HD or not. Since we CAN'T know that a trial group of dogs is free of the HD genes, we can't fully isolate nutrition for evaluation as a single factor in the development of HD. I'd rather make my breeding and rearing decisions based on what we do know than on what we don't...and support research with the goal of identifying the genes (or associated markers) that play a role in the development of HD*. * VetGen is working on this in conjunction with UM. If you have, or have bred, a dog affected with HD, ask me for details on how you can participate. ~ Sherri Venditti
skeletal diseases
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skeletal diseases
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Shelter dog in Rogers, AR
There has been some buzz about a possible Berner in a shelter in Rogers, Arkansas. Last month, in conjunction with the Heartland Club rescue people, I had my sister, who lives near Rogers, go and see this dog. She took her digital camera and sent me several photos. I kept in close touch with Heartland rescuers and we decided that he is not a Berner. If anyone would like to see photos, they can email me privately and I'll gladly forward photos. Gail Miller Cynosure Bernese in Arkansas [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please remove me from this newsletter
From: Bernese Mountain Dog Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 22:06:06 CST To: Bernese Mountain Dog Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: BERNER-L digest 4108 BERNER-L Digest 4108 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Surprised?! - Hip and Elbow testing question by Sharon Montville [EMAIL PROTECTED] 2) Rambling about hips by Sharon Montville [EMAIL PROTECTED] 3) Re: Surprised?! - Hip and Elbow testing question by [EMAIL PROTECTED] 4) Fragility of breed/Consultations by Lisa D Allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] 5) Histiocytomas by Lisa D Allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] 6) Re: Looking for vet by [EMAIL PROTECTED] 7) Expectations of PPO's by ptackett [EMAIL PROTECTED] 8) Joining a club? by Carol Bradfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] 9) REMOVE by [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10) Ray's Red Berner! by TML [EMAIL PROTECTED] 11) Hip and Elbow Certifications by Pat Long Paul Dangel [EMAIL PROTECTED] 12) RE: Signature Calendar by Pat Long Paul Dangel [EMAIL PROTECTED] 13) More on Hips and other fun things by Mary-Ann Bowman [EMAIL PROTECTED] 14) Werners by Mary-Ann Bowman [EMAIL PROTECTED] 15) Re: Dysplasia - Nutrition environmental factors. by Rusty C Wingate [EMAIL PROTECTED] 16) Re: Surprised?! - Hip and Elbow testing question by Rusty C Wingate [EMAIL PROTECTED] 17) BMD ad in Salt Lake paper by [EMAIL PROTECTED] 18) Re: Escape artist by Susan Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED] 19) Re: Hip and Elbow Certifications by Jeff Mary Chapdelaine - SnoBear berners [EMAIL PROTECTED] 20) some final thoughts on Flexi's by [EMAIL PROTECTED] 21) Tony Mora by Mary-Ann Bowman [EMAIL PROTECTED] 22) Elbow Dysplasia incidence based on parental status by Pat Long Paul Dangel [EMAIL PROTECTED] 23) Thank you! by j gassert [EMAIL PROTECTED] 24) house training by Terry Cathy Bering [EMAIL PROTECTED] 25) Re: BERNER-L digest 4106 Surprised - Hip Elbow Testing Question by gayle gramstad [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Sharon Montville [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Friday, November 8, 2002 10:44 PM To: Bernese Mountain Dog Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Surprised?! - Hip and Elbow testing question Hi Marilynn, I think it would be *wonderful* if you had your regular vet do OFA hip/elbow x-rays on Star. I do not think it is necessary to go to the extra expense of PennHIP. There is not much known in this country, about most of the lines that the BARC pups come from. As a result, we have puppy millers with their often low-quality Eastern European pups, bragging that there is no Hip or Elbow dysplasia in the lines - and as a result, it is not necessary to screen the litter parents' hips/elbows before breeding. Most of us on this list, experienced and beginners alike, would probably have some doubts about this claim... but we don't really KNOW, do we? It would be great to have some data to support our hunch. OFA is fine. PennHIP does not add much value, in this case. One of the important reasons is that PennHIP evaluations are not able to be verified online. OFA evalutions CAN be easily verified online and if you choose to release all results (including evidence of dysplasia) that is a bonus to everyone. Another reason that PennHIP does not add as much value is that Star is not going to be bred. Since tighter hips are less likely to become dysplastic, it can make sense for a breeder to select for tighter hips (in addition to just being normal) and track progress in this regard. Sorry to say, I doubt Star's actual breeder is actively trying to bred for tighter hips. The main reason I would bother with PennHIP for a non-breeding dog is if its parents have been PennHIPPed and the breeder wants to track progress. Another reason might be if a PPO were considering purchasing a 4-month-old puppy... very loose hips at 4 months can be a predictor of HD. So if, as a pet owner, you want as close to a crystal ball as you can get regarding HD, then PennHIP might be worth the expense. And Marilynn, thank you so much for setting a trend with Star and getting her hips and elbows evaluated even though she is a rescue and a BARC rescue at that! You are performing a service that could be more valuable than we might assume. I also love it that you were so careful about naming Star and registering her - the thought you put into this is a major bonus to those who want to research hips and elbows from these lines. You are setting a standard that I wish more *breeders* would follow and your unselfish dedication to this breed is an example for all. THANK YOU more than words can express... I hope Star's hips and elbows turn out fine (even though that will not provide me with the ammunition I need but I could never wish HD/ED on ANY dog, just to make a point). Sharon Montville - Firstrax - Colorado __ Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos
Funny story
Beau has been doing great with his new family (as he sits under my computer desk, on my feet, while I write) His first day brings me a laugh -- I'm sitting in my office, working away, and I hear Beau pass gas -- it was pretty loud. I kind of chuckle (girl or not, farts ARE funny -- it's the smell that's dangerous). Before I can get my chuckle out ... Beau jumps up, and runs out of the room!! What's that?? Could it be?? His owners did tell me that he is afraid of loud noises ... HIS OWN FART SCARED HIM!!. HAHHAHA .. no no .. poor old boy!!! Later that day his previous owners called to see how he was doing. I told her about the fart incident ... she laughed, and then told me that's pretty normal for Beau; that her husband always laughs when he does it. I also found out that the kids, as a good bye present were giving him lots of dog treats, pop corn, and PEPSI BLUE! (I'm glad he only farted!!!) He's such a good man!! I'll tell you what, at 11 years YOUNG he's AMAZING!! I say walk or get his leash .. and he goes bonkers!! He's jumping all around, wagging that big tail around in circles, he takes the lead in his mouth ... he LOVES walks!!! It's only when he lays down that you remember his age ... he lets out a long GROAN EVERY TIME he lays down ... every time .. it's so cute!! :o) He's not a playing sort of dog, apparently never was. So when my 2 1/2 year old Buhund starts tearing around the house in big circles ... he just looks at her ... I can hear him thinking darn kids Actually, he does get excited; but he doesn't know how to play ... so he wags and barks, and lays on ME. hehehee Tracey Beau (oh yeah , hubby Mike, son Anthony, other dog Kjersti .. haha, no , we're not ignornig her ... tons of love everywhere in this house!!) Belleville, IL
Finding a breeder Red Flags (was re: BERNER-L digest 4110)
Hi Kim, I am looking for my first Berner puppy, If anyone knows of any good Berner breeders in Ohio or nearby area I would love to talk to them and ask them some questions. The best way to find the right breeder for you is by using the regional club(s) in your area. You'll find links to the regional clubs and contact information (along with a lot of other excellent information) on the national (US) club's website: www.bmdca.org Regional clubs offer breeder referral, but more than that...they provide the opportunity to get to know berner owners breeders by way of the events they host. These events range from Specialty shows to Fun Days to Holiday Gatherings. Non-members are welcome so don't hesitate to take advantage of the offerings. All your comments about HD have been very informative and I will make sure that is a very high priority to look for. HD is just one aspect of many to consider when breeding or buying. Pat Long has put together a Breeder Checklist which is an excellent tool to help you learn the wide variety of aspects breeders take into account in making their decisions, and to help you determine how closely a particular breeder's priorities align with your own. You'll find the Breeder Checklist on her website: http://www.jersey.net/~mountaindog/berner1 Something relatively new on the radar screen is the fact that as buyers have become better informed and started asking serious questions, commercial breeders and brokers have learned to say the things buyers want to hear. For this reason, it's important to hear accurately what's being said...and what's not being said. It's become imperative to DEMAND copies of all certifications, contracts, and guarantees BEFORE deciding to buy from that breeder. It's not intrusive or insulting...it's the norm. Responsible breeders require this of each other before doing a breeding and will be happy to provide you with documentation to support any statements they make about their line or the breeding pair. Beware of statements like: Her hips are good or I've never had a problem with ... or My vet said... or These dogs are from European lines, they don't have the kind of problems over there that American breeders do or I can't give you copies until you sign the contract To my ears, these types of general statements send up a *Red Flag*. Contrast them with the kind of discussion you'd typically hear from a responsible breeder: The sire is OFA good, dam is OFA excellent, elbows for both are OFA normal, eyes for both CERFed clear within the last year. (Personally, I'd also want cardiac clearance and vWD evaluation). If you're interested in the litter, I'll be happy to send you copies of the clearance certificates along with a 4 generation pedigree, then we can discuss each of the dogs in the pedigree along with aunts and uncles. I'll also enclose a copy of my usual contract so you'll know what I guarantee and what I expect from my puppy buyers. This in addition to discussion of YOUR dog experience, lifestyle, desires in a pup, etc. There's a great deal more to breeding responsibly than doing the proper screening for genetic diseases, but the point is to beware of generalizations. You should be offered specifics and the paperwork to back them up. -Sherri Venditti
Need import info for BMD puppy from Switzerland to US
Clear DayHi everybody, In December, on my visit to family and friends in Switzerland, I'll be picking up a BMD pup Bijou to bring to the USA. The pup will be ca. 11 weeks old then. My breeder wants to know if Bijou needs a rabbies shot besides a health certificate. I visited the Center for Desease and Control Prevention (CDC) website, which states the following: Dogs must be vaccinated against rabies at least 30 days prior to entry into the United States, except for puppies younger than 3 months of age and dogs originating or located for 6 months or more in areas that are free of rabies. A dog with an unexpired vaccination certificate meets these requirements. Is this information current/correct? Have any of you brought back a puppy from Switzerland and was a rabbies shot required. Were there any problems? Thanks, Hildy
hip and elbow dysplasia and rationalizations?
Is it POSSIBLE that some who are most convinced that nutrition is a cause of dysplasia are attempting to rationalize breeding, for example, a bitch with no elbow clearances from a mother with no elbow clearances? Is it easier to blame nutrition (or injury) rather than just admit that the elbows in the pedigree are shaky? Or perhaps it is easier to discount the opinions of the OFA and GDC, suggesting that the OFA and GDC just offer subjective opinions that might not be accurate? A combination approach might be even better -- nutrition, injury and the OFA offers subjective opinions so breeding another generation with elbow dysplasia is perfectly acceptable! That just does not fly at all. I agree breeders need to look at the whole dog, and decide where to compromise. But I must say that I have much more respect for those who just acknowledge that they are taking chances with elbows or hips because they are trying to achieve this or that goal with the litter, and here is how the risk is mediated than those who ignore the decades of research and suggest that hip and elbow dysplasia is caused by something other than genes. Mary-Ann Bowman Utah
Need Breeder's/rescuers assistance RE:Early Spay/Neutering
Hello, I am looking for breeder's/rescuers of all breeds, impute for a page I'm creating on my site. I am only interested in breeders or rescuers experiences, who Early spay their puppies, and who would be willing to give me their first hand experiences to quote. Please note: I will be placing the entire quote of your experience's as you tell it, on the page. I will however keep you anonymous, if that is your wish. And just note the breed your involved in. I will NOT be willing to debate the pros and con's of this issue, nor will this article delve into debating it. It will NOT be offering an opinion or discussing reasons why or why not, to early spay/neuter. It is also sincerely *NOT* intended to berate, discredit or otherwise condemn in any way, breeders/rescuers who do not early/spay It's *ONLY* intent is to list first hand experiences from breeders who DO. So that readers can note the experience's of others, should they be considering early spaying their puppy. Or for breeders who are considering it, hearing what other breeders have observed could be very helpful. The idea came from the MANY discussions of experiences I've read on these lists, I thought it would be a good idea to document these experiences on one page. There are many sites out there that discuss the pros and con's of Early Spay/Neutering pups. So why create another one? Instead of arguing the point, or quoting the MANY studies and arguments for/against early spaying of pets; I thought it would be more productive to gather and quote personal experiences from breeders all over the world who have Spay/Neutered their pups at an early age. I would be forever grateful if you would offer your expertise in this matter. Your experiences don't have to be a page in length, just a paragraph or two listing the important observations you have made. Important points I would like addressed could include: -What breed of dogs you have? -How long you have been Early spay/neutering or how many litters you have done over the years? -aprox age spayed? -What changes you observed compared to later spays -How they developed -How they compare physically, mentally and health wise, to previous litters that were not early spayed Plus any other important observations you have made, that *directly* could be linked to the early/spay. ***Note: it is also just as important to mention if NO noticeable differences were observed.*** Thank your for your consideration, Sariena Foley http://regaliapyrs.tripod.com/index.htm Dedicated, in loving memory to my boy Zeus -February 14, 00-September 27, 01 Educational site about the Great Pyrenees and facts about the ONLY reliable source to obtain one...a RESPONSIBLE breeder!
OT: Liz P. update
Today Liz gets to go home -- after talking to her on Saturday I am in awe of her Ortho. surgeon! It is amazing she has not been in pain with her 'old' hip joint the Dr. said the ball socket was in 3 pieces. Lots of bone damage she had to have bone graft and her femur was cracked while doing the surgery (not uncommon in a revision surgery) Jimmy her husband says the Doc baling wired her together G seriously though she is one lucky lady! Thank you all for keeping her in your prayers, now comes the hard part -- recovery and rehab. Liz wanted me to thank everyone that had sent her email or cards,etc.She said she will try and send you personal Thank you's in the next couple of weeks. Again THANK YOU all for being supportive! Pat Tackett Texas __ Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2
Grapes Raisins--warning!!
I heard on the radio the other day (pet show) not to give dogs grapes raisins.at least for right now. For some unknown reason, they are toxic to dogs several have died. The ASPCA has given out this warning, but no one knows why they are presently toxic. Tests have been done of grapes both grown commercially in backyards both can be toxic, but pesticides are not the cause. The warning was to not give your dogs grapes raisins until the cause of the toxicity can be determined! EGADS! Our dogs lve both! They'll have to find another snack for now. Kathy Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED] Windraider Kennels California www.windraiderkennels.com Bernese Mtn Dogs - Int Am BIS Can CH Windraider's Black Oak v Bevs , HIT, CGC, TDI Tobin Windraider's Manjula v Bev's Jul Windraider's Seven Seas Briggand Briggand 7 mo Windraider's Black Oak Conspiracy Brenna 7 mo Flat Coated Retv - Int Am CH Twofold Samba Sam, CGC, TDI Sam (liver-DK imp) Pembroke W. Corgi - Annline's Extra Well Done Miles (FI imp) r/w 13 mo Labs Eskie - Scout, Babe Klondike
RE: Hello, I'm new to the list.
Hi Jen, Your puppy sounds very typical, lots of mischief in his heart:-)) Do not supplement him with calcium, it is not good for large breed puppies to have calcium added to their diet unless they are totally fed a raw meat diet which in itself is not good. We have many people on this list who choose to feed natural foods and they can help you if you choose to go that route but if you have chosen to feed a kibble designed for large breed puppies you do not need to add any extra supplements. Many breeders supplement with Vitamin C and 500mg a day is sufficient, I would not recommend adding any oils either Vitamin E or Flax Seed to a growing puppy. Oils greatly increase the calorie level of foods and this type of increase promotes rapid growth which is not desirable in a large breed puppy. These oils given out of sync with each other can in fact cause imbalances and if when puppy is older you want to improve his coat quality you can add canned pink salmon or sardines on occasion. Have lots of fun:-) Rose
Newbie Carol's Post: Skeletal Diseases (Food Choices)
Carol Wrote: Nobody has mentioned what to feed or how to feed the Berner dog. I'm sure there are as many opinions on that subject as the other. Carol, You brought up a great point for an obvious newbie. And you're right - there are MANY opinions on what to feed a berner. Many are valid, some aren't. My suggestion is for you to first discuss food choices for your berner with your berner's breeder. If you respected that breeder enough to purchase their dog/puppy, then you should also respect that breeder's food choices for your dog. Even in berner-dom, certain pedigrees are known to work better with certain diets. Experience is a plus. Having said that, remember not all food choices that breeders make are absolutes. If food choices that your breeder suggests obviously do not work for your berner (i.e., the dog has severe gastric upset continually, will not eat that food, etc), then go back to the breeder for an alternative food choice solution. As a last resort, if its simply not possible to work with your dog's breeder, find a different and very experienced berner breeder (or two) who has a record of successfully raising berners. Present your dog's situation and ask for a solution. I am a new breeder and there are many experienced breeders who currently will know far more about pedigrees and such than me. Many participate in this list. Those are the people I would refer you to if your breeder cannot/will not help. However, I am here if I can be of any support to you and your berner. Good Luck!! Esther Wilson http://www.wilpowerkennels.com __ Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2
Re: Grapes Raisins--warning!!
Kathryn wrote: I heard on the radio the other day (pet show) not to give dogs grapes raisins.at least for right now. For some unknown reason, they are toxic to dogs several have died. snip Here is the url to the ASPCA Canine Poison Control Center's Information on Grape Raisin Toxicity: http://www.aspca.org/site/DocServer/grapes.pdf?docID=189 Bernerly, Jeff Mary Chapdelaine SnoBear Berners [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://snobear.freeyellow.com
Remove me from list
- Original Message - From: Bernese Mountain Dog Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Bernese Mountain Dog Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 12:36 PM Subject: BERNER-L digest 4113 BERNER-L Digest 4113 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: the nature/nurture HD discussion by Jennifer Popp [EMAIL PROTECTED] 2) Re: the nature/nurture HD discussion by [EMAIL PROTECTED] 3) skeletal diseases by Carol [EMAIL PROTECTED] 4) skeletal diseases by Carol [EMAIL PROTECTED] 5) Shelter dog in Rogers, AR by Gail Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] 6) Please remove me from this newsletter by Carter Conley [EMAIL PROTECTED] 7) Funny story by Tracey Conner [EMAIL PROTECTED] 8) Escape artist by [EMAIL PROTECTED] 9) Finding a breeder Red Flags (was re: BERNER-L digest 4110) by [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10) re: High ALT, Dircet Bilirubin, Chloride by Robin Camken [EMAIL PROTECTED] 11) Need import info for BMD puppy from Switzerland to US by Hildy Ferraiolo [EMAIL PROTECTED] 12) hip and elbow dysplasia and rationalizations? by Mary-Ann Bowman [EMAIL PROTECTED] 13) Need Breeder's/rescuers assistance RE:Early Spay/Neutering by Sariena [EMAIL PROTECTED] 14) RE: Skeletal Diseases of the Growing Dog by Sharon Montville [EMAIL PROTECTED] 15) OT: Liz P. update by Patricia Tackett [EMAIL PROTECTED] 16) Re: BERNER-L digest 4112 by JESSIE WILSON [EMAIL PROTECTED] 17) Brother Sister Purebred BMDs in No. VA shelter by [EMAIL PROTECTED] 18) Grapes Raisins--warning!! by Kathryn Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED] 19) RE: Hello, I'm new to the list. by Rose Tierney [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BERNER-L digest 4112
Jessie -- My recommendation is to seek the advice of your breeder. Caring/involved breeders know best what is right for your dog. They may have given you this info when you picked up your puppy - look through the paperwork you received, or call them. In lieu of recommendation from your breeder, I'm sure others on the List can make enough food recommendations to make your head spin ;-) Liz Steinweg The Crew Blue Moon's Baloo Berry Torte Baloo - our rescue Berner-boy! Bobby Sox (husky-x), Figaro (20+ lb Forest Cat) Rio Sahara (the Rat Cats) and in loving memory of my 1st BMD - Toby (6/29/97 - 6/30/00) Colorado Springs CO http://www.csbservices.com/personal/personal.htm - Original Message - From: JESSIE WILSON [EMAIL PROTECTED] I have had my 6 month old berner on Science Diet. Is there a less expensive brand that is just as good as this. What is the best that I should be feeding Ripley?
Skeletal Diseases discussion
Jenn Popp wrote: However nutrition, particularly excesses, affects bone development in many ways that are detrimental Amen! Thanks Jenn, great point. I wish more people understood this fact as it relates to growing large breed puppies. Bernerly, Esther Wilson http://www.wilpowerkennels.com __ Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2
Re: BERNER-L digest 4113
please take me off the mailing list. Thank you. - Original Message - From: Bernese Mountain Dog Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Bernese Mountain Dog Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 9:36 AM Subject: BERNER-L digest 4113 BERNER-L Digest 4113 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: the nature/nurture HD discussion by Jennifer Popp [EMAIL PROTECTED] 2) Re: the nature/nurture HD discussion by [EMAIL PROTECTED] 3) skeletal diseases by Carol [EMAIL PROTECTED] 4) skeletal diseases by Carol [EMAIL PROTECTED] 5) Shelter dog in Rogers, AR by Gail Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] 6) Please remove me from this newsletter by Carter Conley [EMAIL PROTECTED] 7) Funny story by Tracey Conner [EMAIL PROTECTED] 8) Escape artist by [EMAIL PROTECTED] 9) Finding a breeder Red Flags (was re: BERNER-L digest 4110) by [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10) re: High ALT, Dircet Bilirubin, Chloride by Robin Camken [EMAIL PROTECTED] 11) Need import info for BMD puppy from Switzerland to US by Hildy Ferraiolo [EMAIL PROTECTED] 12) hip and elbow dysplasia and rationalizations? by Mary-Ann Bowman [EMAIL PROTECTED] 13) Need Breeder's/rescuers assistance RE:Early Spay/Neutering by Sariena [EMAIL PROTECTED] 14) RE: Skeletal Diseases of the Growing Dog by Sharon Montville [EMAIL PROTECTED] 15) OT: Liz P. update by Patricia Tackett [EMAIL PROTECTED] 16) Re: BERNER-L digest 4112 by JESSIE WILSON [EMAIL PROTECTED] 17) Brother Sister Purebred BMDs in No. VA shelter by [EMAIL PROTECTED] 18) Grapes Raisins--warning!! by Kathryn Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED] 19) RE: Hello, I'm new to the list. by Rose Tierney [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BERNER-L digest 4113
PREplease stop sending me this thanks
Puppy howls
Hi, I think one should address what is causing the howl and not adding to a potential stress situation. In my experience puppies howl because they are unhappy and/or lonely. I would not want to hear of any corrective measures being taken against a puppy that is protesting perhaps being in a crate! My adult dogs will sometimes howl in unison with the neighbours Siberian Huskies but this is shortlived and rather musical. Today the three fighter jets that had flown over our Capital's Memorial flew over my property and the dogs in the yard mournfully howled. My tears flowed even more so. Rose
re: the nature/nurture HD discussion
Melissa, Thank you for sharing your experience with HD. You do have a point regarding the breeding dogs. I'm not sure that I could personally try to stress to the max to make sure the dog is unaffected, but I can appreciate the value in doing that. As a breeder, I usually have more dogs than the typical pet owner. I have had as many as 5 at once and that is really my maximum. Currently I have 4. I think when you have a group of dogs who are not kept in individual kennels, they get more free exercise than an only dog. I have had really good luck with my 5 and I sometimes wonder if it isn't due to the free exercise they get. I feed Canidae and I keep my dogs on the lean side. Since they are show dogs, they cannot be too lean however. I do subscribe to the leanness for a longer life theory. As I also have horses, I am familiar with the concept of killing with kindness - you can have too much of a good thing and horses do not need to be fat either. As you mentioned, HD is caused by multiple genes and I have heard stories from older breeders about how some of their most disappointing breedings from an orthopedic standpoint, have been outcrosses. I think this is due to the situation that you described. One line is missing one gene, the other line is missing another gene - so as a result, you have great orthopedics in both lines. But pair these two lines together and you have the opportunity to produce pups with a full set of HD genes. Sharon Montville - Firstrax - Colorado __ Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2
Chewing puppies
Hi, A nice bone stripped of excess fat and most of the marrow removed will keep chewing puppies amused, flavoured nylabones serve as well. No frozen cloths, no matter how vigilant you are it teaches a bad habit and in reality where will you be when he chews up some clothing. Rose Tierney
hip and elbow dysplasia and rationalizations
Mary-Ann wrote: Is it POSSIBLE that some who are most convinced that nutrition is a cause of dysplasia are attempting to rationalize breeding Mary-Ann, Its my personal thought that you're attempting to dissect something into black and white that has no absolutes. The variables are as many as there are breeders. I'm certain there are breeders who hope to hide behind nutrition as a reason for HD and/or other skeletal diseases. I'm equally certain there are dogs who have skeletal disorders solely due to malnutrition during growth stages (because I've seen them and know the professional diagnosis). There are so many factors in canine skeletal development that it's implausible to group every abnormality in every situation and stick one generic label on the entire lot (i.e., all skeletal disorders are from genetics, all skeletal disorders are from malnutrition, all skeletal disorders are from environment, all skeletal disorders are from Mars). Allowance must be made for the various factors unique to each situation. Perhaps a solution here lies in the breeder using personal integrity as well as sufficient breeding program insight with objectivity to make breeding decisions. Always assuming, of course, the breeder's goal is to ultimately improve the breed and not just create more berner puppies. As a new breeder, I'm reading all these recent posts and making notes. I find the diverse information interesting and potentially useful. Friendly flames only, please. Bernerly, Esther Wilson http://www.wilpowerkennels.com __ Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2
Re: Skeletal Diseases of the Growing Dog
Oh yes -- BIG loophole!! If it is the owner's fault that the puppy is dysplasic, then it can't possibly be because the breeding choice was unwise/uninformed/bad luck. And if it is nutrition/injury/voodoo/whatever, then there is no reason not to breed another generation of bad elbows so that more puppy owners can have the pleasure of lame and hurting dogs. I think it is easy to have situational ethics. You have your lovely, much loved bitch but she has bad elbows and darn it, so does her mom. How can one make it okay to breed her? One way is to acknowledge the risk, do research on siblings and other close relatives and do it anyway, breeding to a male with a very strong elbow record and hoping for the best. Another way is to not care what passes to the owners of puppies down the generations. Another way is to decide that elbow dysplasia is not really genetic after all, the OFA is just some guys and gals making subjective calls, and that it is really nutrition (or injury) that caused those elbow problems in the bitch and her mom. Like Sharon, I have decided in advance about this issue so that I would not be tempted to have situational ethics. My choice is not for everyone, just as Sharon's is not for everyone. But I think it helps protect me from rationalizing choices in the future. I also have very clear objectives that guide my breeding decisions, and I am also open about the compromises I have made. I think that creating life is a HUGE responsibility, and should be done with integrity, research, and a sense of responsibility to those who will be living with the products (puppies) of our decisions. I also think PPO's deserve to know what goals and objectives guided the breeding, and what compromises were made in the process. However, before those things can be articulated to a PPO, a breeder must be able to do it for him/herself. And how can one articulate to a PPO that elbows are a risk in this particular breeding if the breeder thinks that jumping off the grooming table caused the elbow dysplasia in the mom, and bad food caused the dysplasia in the maternal grandmother??? And when the puppies show up with elbow dysplasia -- it is the owners fault. Sure it is Mary-Ann Bowman Utah
Berner walk 2002
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Re: hip and elbow dysplasia and rationalizations
I am talking about hip and elbow dysplasia -- not all possible bone issues with a Bernese Mountain Dog. I do not have enough information to have an opinion about all possible bone problems, but I do have enough information to state that elbow and hip dysplasia are inherited diseases. Since these are the big issues in the breed, I have been limiting my discussions to these two genetic conditions :) Mary-Ann Bowman Utah
Ongoing discussion
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Question
My husband and I are new owners to a Berner, and as such are very uneducated. I joined this list in hopes that I could learn what is needed to take care of our 'baby'. I hope this is the right forum, if not please forgive me. Here is my first question. I need to know how to trim 'Thor's' paws. I talked with a breeder once and was told that this needs to be done a certain way to prevent infection. Can anyone help? thanks to all Karen Gross
Re: the nature/nurture HD discussion
If a dog is fed too much, but does NOT have the genes for HD, it will NOT develop HD. If a dog is fed too much, and DOES have the genes for HD, it WILL develop HD. I had always understood that HD was not just a genetic thing and that diet and inappropriate exercise are also contributing factors! I cannot imagine telling my puppy buyers, get 'em nice and fat and run 'em til they drop, so I will really know whether they got the HD genes or not. Nice point, Sharon!! This is something is so difficult to prove either way! Think we need to take away from just worrying about HD and concentrate down on keeping our Bernese fit on all levels! An overweight dog, lacking in exercise is just as likely to develop heart or other problems too! My first adoptee Bernese, Tinka, was seven/eight years when she first came to me. Had been quarantined for six months on entry to UK, was very stiff, very overweight, and could do about half a mile before needing a serious rest! Vet said HD though I never did the x-rays, didn't see the point of putting her through it, I was not about to breed from her anyway even if sahe hadn't been spayed! Within a year she was slimline and walking miles! She lived to almost fourteen and was still doing seven/eight miles a day with me until the end! Recommendation was strict diet and build up those muscles that support the hip joints with lots of on leash road walking at first! Then I could let her off and she could run! Hmmm! Just done the same with new adoptee, Barney, who arrived here barrel-shaped and plodding like an old man! Only four years old and folks we met out walking thought my Sunny Girl, now eight, was a Puppy?? Almost six months later, he is now keeping up with Sim and Sunny and chases around my woods! Has packed on a lot of hard muscle around that back end!! All love, Jean, Sunny, Simmy, Barney and the Gang XXX http://www.angelfire.com/anime3/longlease/index.htm
Re: the nature/nurture HD discussion
In a message dated 11/11/2002 1:05:16 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I cannot imagine telling my puppy buyers, get 'em nice and fat and run 'em til they drop, so I will really know whether they got the HD genes or not. This is why it is so important that research into marker genes for the condition continues to be funded!! Until we have some way of testing for the genetic component(s) of the disease, we will continue to have this condition popping up no matter how much x-raying and certifying we do. We can reduce the incidence with current knowledge but we will not be able to eradicate the disease until we can test the genetics. Anne Copeland, Flash,TDI/CGC (Berner, 8 yrs.) Gypsy TDI/CGC(Rescue Cavalier,1 1/2 yr.) NE ILL [EMAIL PROTECTED] BMDCSEW Vice President Ty's memorial page: http://www.geocities.com/workingyorkie/ty.html Gypsy's page:http://hometown.aol.com/annes4/Gypsy.html
Poisonous Plants Flowers and other hazards
Hi All, I had a cat that ate some part of the Poinsetta every year for a number of years and it never made him sick. I got them every year because I'd heard they were not harmful despite old warnings going around. He did die at 11 years old from kidney failure which I beleive was caused by him eating an Easter Lily a friend brought over. He ate it within about 1 hour of it entering the house and he seemed to slowly decline over the next 4 months or so. I can't prove it was the lily, but for a strictly indoor cat, it was the only new thing. Stupid me. I didn't check till after the friend left about the dangers of lilies and by then it was well munched. Now the real hazardous plant in our house this year will be the Christmas tree. With three large dogs, it doesn't stand a chance. The berner is an angel and only removes things with his tail. That means no ornaments on the bottom 3rd. My TM female has figured out how to stand on her back legs or the couch and steal ornaments (to eat). That means nothing on the middle 3rd. So for the last few years, we've only had ornaments on the top. Well, this year we have a new 15 month old TM rescue boy who has to try everything. I have no doubt he'll grab a branch and pull with all his might on that tree. I guess that means no ornaments at all. I also have 3 cats, one of which just turned 1 and has never seen a Christmas tree. He'll run under it followed by a dog. Oh well! And to top it all off, my mom has worked for Hallmark for years and I have the most amazing ornament collection. But I'm lucky, all my boys are squatters so I have no worries about the tree getting watered. Now hopefully Mobi won't pull the anchors Liz Murray Calgary Alberta
Orthopedic status of breeding stock
I am interested in the opinions of others on the breeding of dogs or bitches that are HD Fair. I do not think such dogs should be a part of a breeding program and wish to hear how others feel about this. Specifically, Berners, of course. Lisa Allen I thought my Berner Daphane (1983-1993) was the only dog who frightened herself terribly when she er, ah, ahem, experienced an episode of flatulence. Glad to hear she was not alone in this regard! _ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
lost message -- grooming help
Well, I was on a clean out my inbox spree ... And accidentally deleted the email someone sent me on how he grooms his Berner .. D'OH!! The archive on the list seems broken (links take to file not found) So, if the person that sent me their tips could please resend them to me ... I'd appreciate it. Also, I could use some tips on general handling. I'm used to a totally baited breed -- self stacking. I've been studying photos of Berners, and how they're stood (standed up?? Neither way sounds like proper English!!) Do you stack them, then bait them to get ears up?? THANKS!! Tracey (again)
He is an excellent counter surfer.
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Re: Orthopedic status of breeding stock
Lisa, The current BMDCA Code Of Ethics, section C states, C. Ideally x-ray for evidence of hip dysplasia at age of two years or older, treating mild cases as they would any other fault, and excluding from breeding programs dogs with more severe evidence of hip dysplasia. OFA says it is the lowest of three passing grades but is acceptable to breed. GDC called it acceptable normal and it was the lowest passing grade of three. The Alpenhorn printed an article on the back cover about the comparing different ratings and the instances of them degrading. I do not remember the date, I believe it was between 1997 and 1999??? Does anyone know which issue this was?? I feel if the dog/bitch received a fair rating at 1 year old by GDC it should be checked at two years by either GDC (now gone) or OFA to see if the hips have degraded further. I do know of several dogs who received a AN (Acceptable Normal) rating from GDC at 12 months who were re-x-rayed at three or four years old and were given Good ratings. I'm sure it has swung the opposite direction as well. Bernerly, Mary
Re: BERNER-L digest 4113
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Re: BERNER-L digest 4113
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Update Purebred BMDs in No. VA shelter
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RE: Grapes Raisins--issues of renal failure, but the jury is still out on why!
If my dog ate 2 lbs of raisins I would be worried about how they would come out the other end. I feed my dogs 5-10 grapes a day once or twice a week. They love um! Moderation is the key. Dean Scott Kutztown, Pa.
Rimadryl vs. Etochesic (?)
Curious about the current thoughts of giving rimadryl versus etochesic (sorry if I have these spelled wrong) for arthritis pain in an older Berner (11). One vet says etochesic is better on the liver -- which is the first to go on older dogs; the other say rimadryl is better as etochesic is hard on the stomach. I know we've got vets out there too ... I'd love to hear thoughts. BTW .. This is for occasional use, not ongoing .. Apparently he only needs it a few times a year, during the winter, when in pain (limping, etc.). THANKS!!, Tracey
Constitutional Fragility
Rancher Roy did allow his Berner pup to play with his mutt and his adult Border Collie and consequently his dog's breeder will not answer his telephone calls. The pup screamed so piteously when kept from the adult dogs that Ray's heart just melted like butter... Fortunately, there are two ethical, long-time breeders of Berners in his region whom he can call; he met them at a club function called an independent specialty. Roy and his family drove over 300 miles to attend this event and Roy's brother watched the ranch in the interim. Rancher Roy is told in a gracious manner by one breeder to surely not pen his pup and keep pup away from the other dogs; that this would be impossible, foolhardy and, breeder whispers in his ear, ridiculous. The other breeder, with whom Rancher Roy enjoys lunch, explains that the pup will surely suffer perhaps crippling bone disease throughout his life if Rancher Roy continues to allow the adult dogs to play with pup. And, as if Roy is not growing more confused at this point, both breeders share different opinions regarding the wisdom of allowing pup to toddle about the ranch behind Roy. Then, while buying a cup of coffee before the long drive home, Roy strikes up a conversation with a Berner pet owner who has been owned by the breed for 20 years and says to Roy that though he abides by the directions given to him by his dog's breeders, he worries that the Berner constitution is being allowed to become as fragile as fine china; of course, his dogs are destined for the shows and not for farm work, like those of Rancher Roy. Rancher Roy arrives home anxious and confused and frightened for the pup; his brother tells him just let 'im be a pup, for goodness sake. So, what is a new puppy owner to do when given and reading and hearing conflicting advice; who is right; the breeder selling her first litter, the breeder of thirty years...Roy needs to know as his Berner will not only be his best bud but a farm hand as well. By the way, PPOs, as if you don't have enough to worry about, ascertain the degree of cancer and immune-mediated disease in the lines from which your pup comes, both sire's and dam's. Lisa Allen _ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
Berner Stuff
Someone's been busy, we have a bunch of links to Berner Stuff in the Berner Links directory! Go to www.berner.org, select Links Directory, then select Stuff There's a link to some new stuffed dogs, but I didn't see Berners, did I miss it? Enjoy!!! And thanks to the links elf!! Pat Long ( Luther) Berwyn PA
okay -- now what?
So we buy a puppy from a breeder and she limps and we discover that she has elbow dysplasia in one elbow and surgery is recommended. We get a second opinion -- same diagnosis and recommendation. Now what does/should a good breeder do??? We all agree that blaming the poor owner is not the correct answer but what is?? I met a cardiac surgeon who bought a puppy from a breeder who has posted to this very list. The dog was dysplasic so he called her and what did he get?? No help, no support and because of how she handled things, an intense dislike for that breeder. What is a correct breeder response when a dog has hip dysplasia? Does/should it depend on level of impairment? Spoke with a breeder whose name was public when it showed up on auction pedigrees. This man told me that he will give a refund for a dysplasic dog -- if the owner returns the dog to him. After all, he told me, you don't get a new refrigerator unless you return the defective one. So what do you think?? Mary-Ann Bowman Utah
Re: okay -- now what?
When I bought a BMD when I still lived in The Netherlands, the contract said that if there were any healthproblems with the dog, the breeder would reimburse me for 50% of the vet costs. When my Boris needed surgery and both his front legs and later developped severe HD which required hip replacement, they came over, went with me through the whole treatment and the exams, and were at my house after the surgery. They payed the 50%, and also, after I had to put Boris to sleep, they payed to have him cremated. I was very happy with that, because a breeder can not guarantee a dog's health, but these people did everything they could to help me out. Judith on 11/11/02 4:05 PM, Mary-Ann Bowman at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So we buy a puppy from a breeder and she limps and we discover that she has elbow dysplasia in one elbow and surgery is recommended. We get a second opinion -- same diagnosis and recommendation. Now what does/should a good breeder do??? We all agree that blaming the poor owner is not the correct answer but what is??
Re: Orthopedic status of breeding stock
Fair means clear. Fair hips get a number. I feel to abolish a dog from a breeding program soley based on fair hips would not be a decision I would make. Let us think about a champion bitch with clear elbows, great temperament, breed type and strong pedigreewould you really not breed her because her hips are fair??? On the other end of the spectrum, what about a bitch with excellent hips, no breed type and a shy temperament? To deny a dog the chance to contribute attributes to a gene pool based on fair hips alone is to beleive a dog is nothing but a set of hips!!! My dogs are much more Just my opinion, Joanne Gerow, Indian Hill www.indianhillbernesemountaindogs.com - Original Message - From: Lisa D Allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 3:17 PM Subject: Orthopedic status of breeding stock I am interested in the opinions of others on the breeding of dogs or bitches that are HD Fair. I do not think such dogs should be a part of a breeding program and wish to hear how others feel about this. Specifically, Berners, of course. Lisa Allen I thought my Berner Daphane (1983-1993) was the only dog who frightened herself terribly when she er, ah, ahem, experienced an episode of flatulence. Glad to hear she was not alone in this regard! _ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
Re: Brother Sister Purebred BMDs in No. VA shelter
Another post from the volunteer the shelter. In a message dated 11/11/2002 1:11:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Thanks! These definately are Berners. Our humane investigators rescued them from a puppymill in Pennsylvania. The boy is a big goofball at the moment (as 8 month old pups tend to me). The female is a little timid at the moment. Both are quick-learners and eager to please. Mary ---BeginMessage--- Thanks! These definately are Berners. Our humane investigators rescued them from a puppymill in Pennsylvania. The boy is a big goofball at the moment (as 8 month old pups tend to me). The female is a little timid at the moment. Both are quick-learners and eager to please. Mary --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 11/11/2002 11:04:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I volunteer with the SPCA of Northern Virginia and we have 2 8 month old Berners ready for adoption. I surfed onto your site and am wondering if you could help us advertise these dog. Here are their photos and descriptions. Thanks very much! Mary Mary - I will put links up immediately as well as call our Rescue Chair. She tries to maintain a list of folks interested in adopting Berners. Fortunately, purebred rescues are rare, but these definitely look like Berners. Thank you so much for saving them. Carol Lingley PVBMDC Web Editor __ Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2 ---End Message---
Re: okay -- now what?
On Mon, 11 Nov 2002 17:05:48 -0700 Mary-Ann Bowman [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Spoke with a breeder whose name was public when it showed up on auction pedigrees. This man told me that he will give a refund for a dysplasic dog -- if the owner returns the dog to him. After all, he told me, you don't get a new refrigerator unless you return the defective one. So what do you think?? I've always wondered what these breeders do with the defective returned dog. I hate to guess. I'm fortunate in that although I've had dysplastic dogs in my breedings, I've yet to have one that required surgery. I know the first thing I ask is that either I get to see the xrays or they go to OFA for a pre-lim eval. In one case I had a vet ready to do surgery on a dysplastic pup I bred. He claimed she had severe hips and bad elbows. The poor owner called me in tears and I begged her to please wait to get another opinion. OFA came back as good hips and grade one elbows DJD. Ultimately at 2 this girl ended up with OFA good hips and grade 2 elbows but again did not require surgery. I recommended a life long course of glucosamine and chondroitin. I think the important thing is I am there. I like to think if surgery was needed I would have refunded the owners money as this is a huge financial commitment on the owners behalf however, I have not crossed that bridge yet so do not know. I don't think breeders can make guarantees on something they can not control. If a breeder makes the best effort possible to breed towards healthy dogs and honestly discloses hereditary trends in their breedings then it is up to the buyer to buy a pup or not. There is IMO a risk to ownership. This risk however should not be shouldered by the buyer alone. IMO any breeder that asks for the dog back in order to get your refund is a scam artist. The last thing any breeder should do IMO regardless of what they may think is place blame on the owner for the problem. I can tell you the owner feels guilt, sadness and concern and regardless of what you think may or may not have caused the problem it is wrong to place blame. The hardest thing a breeder has to do is accept the responsibility. Every dog I produce that has a problem is sick or is lacking in some way is my dog. It is as hard for me to accept this defeat as it is for the owner to deal with it. Susan Ablon Gweebarra BMD Balch Springs, Tx http://www.pageweb.com/gwebara
Re:okay -- now what?
Mary-Ann, Here's my take as an owner -- if such a case arose with me I would hope the breeder would be sympathetic, offer to refund cost of pup NOT asking for pup back or to be euthanized.Depending on their breeding program I would like to contemplate a possible replacement pup down the road, I would hope at no charge since I as owner will be out mega bucks throughout this dogs life maintaining it as best I could. IF I did not get any support, offer to refund, offer to replace -- I would walk away from that breeder and never deal with that person again, I would even be hard pressed to give yearly updates even if contract stated I should. I feel the breeder has breached their own contract so why should I be held to same. I guess after being in the breed roughly 16 years I am becoming more skeptic about how breeders truly treat PPO's and owners, I feel a lot talk the talk but don't actually walk the walk or rather they spew a lot of hot air and then leave us high and dry when things get rough. That's just my take on things, I guess bottom line is I would like to be treated as I would want to treat others. I just know my dogs are my family and I sure couldn't give one back -- I know circumstances are different for some especially if they are trying to get foundation stock and if the dogs don't turn out they turn around an place the HD or ED dog, it would be hard for me to do that. I would have that dog for it's whole life. Of course I'm only a pet or companion owner so I'm sure my stance is totally different than a breeders would be. just my .02 Pat Tackett (BMD's since 1986) Texas --Mary-Ann wrote -- So we buy a puppy from a breeder and she limps and we discover that she has elbow dysplasia in one elbow and surgery is recommended. We get a second opinion -- same diagnosis and recommendation. Now what does/should a good breeder do??? We all agree that blaming the poor owner is not the correct answer but what is?? I met a cardiac surgeon who bought a puppy from a breeder who has posted to this very list. The dog was dysplasic so he called her and what did he get?? No help, no support and because of how she handled things, an intense dislike for that breeder. What is a correct breeder response when a dog has hip dysplasia? Does/should it depend on level of impairment? Spoke with a breeder whose name was public when it showed up on auction pedigrees. This man told me that he will give a refund for a dysplasic dog -- if the owner returns the dog to him. After all, he told me, you don't get a new refrigerator unless you return the defective one. So what do you think?? Mary-Ann Bowman Utah
Re: okay -- now what?
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RE: okay -- now what?
My Buhund bitch came up with HD at 2 years old ... My sales agreement/health agreement was VERY VAGUE ... No no, downright stuipd ... It said she guaranteed the dog free from ALL GENETIC DEFECTS (because both parents had OFA and CERF #'s!!!) ... I could've sued her for damages (spoke with attorney friend) ... I called the breeder, she offered me 1/2 my money back -- I thought that fair and accepted. It all comes down to, what is in your sales/health agreement you got with the puppy?? What was the purpose of the puppy (i.e. show vs. pet). BEST OF LUCK!! --Tracey -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner-berner-l;prairienet.org] On Behalf Of Mary-Ann Bowman Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 6:06 PM To: Bernese Mountain Dog Mailing List Subject: okay -- now what? So we buy a puppy from a breeder and she limps and we discover that she has elbow dysplasia in one elbow and surgery is recommended. We get a second opinion -- same diagnosis and recommendation. Now what does/should a good breeder do??? We all agree that blaming the poor owner is not the correct answer but what is?? I met a cardiac surgeon who bought a puppy from a breeder who has posted to this very list. The dog was dysplasic so he called her and what did he get?? No help, no support and because of how she handled things, an intense dislike for that breeder. What is a correct breeder response when a dog has hip dysplasia? Does/should it depend on level of impairment? Spoke with a breeder whose name was public when it showed up on auction pedigrees. This man told me that he will give a refund for a dysplasic dog -- if the owner returns the dog to him. After all, he told me, you don't get a new refrigerator unless you return the defective one. So what do you think?? Mary-Ann Bowman Utah
Max and Zoe rescue
Hello everyone, This is about the 2 eight month old Berners that are in a shelter in NOVA. I live in Washington DC and would be happy to help in anyway as I'm sure the shelter would not be too difficult to find. If the Potomac valley club is already involved in their rescue and would like to contact me feel free to use my email or my phone 202 548 2778. I can't adopt these guys as I have 3 boys of my own but would be willing to give temporary housing etc.. Hug your babies Pippa Antonio, Col, Toby and Ulysses in Washington DC __ Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2
puppies in paper
Hi All: Was called by a friend today that they seen some Bernese puppies in the Vancouver province, plus some Bernese cross puppies. I hope that someone living down in that area can give/get more info on these pups? If they are from a reputable breeder and question on the price of them, they are advertised anywhere from $750.00 for the crosses to $2000.00 for the others, I really hate to see our breed advertised in the paper, as I do know that responsible;e breeders don't need to advertise their pups this way. I do have the numbers of the ads if someone wants to email me privately plus a email address from one also. Any or all help on this matter would be really appreciated. Wendy Vernon, B.C.
registration for my berner + questions.
I remember receiving information about a web site where I can register my pedigree berner puppy from the the Netherlands. Unfortunately I lost my email history in a computer snafu. Can someone direct me to the site? I looked at the national berner site, Berner.org but it did not reference the web site where I can register my pup. Also, I am reading all of the entries about berner HD. I am a little frightened for the pup. While her history is good by European standards, perhaps a little different than the US, I know her parents and grandparents are still alive (father champion in events) and all are healthy. I am feeding her puppy Science Diet for big dogs, a little cheese and raw meat feedings 2 x daily + her training treats. While she rests as the puppy book recomends, 10 weeks she loves to run around and it concerns me. Also, believing she will go to the toilet in 10 minutes outside in a new environment is wishful thinking. Thanks to everyone who gave me training recommendations for our bundle of joy, and little mule. I have used some techniques, as suggested with positive results. Terry Bering
RE: okay -- now what?
Good question, and one that I can only answer from the buyer's side. I'm a bit strange, I don't want a guarantee. What I want is a breeder who is honest, has done the best job they could to produce a litter of healthy puppies, shares all the known health information about the lines, and a breeder who is supportive throughout the life of the puppy. I like to see a breeder offer reasonable guarantees, it's often an indication of the sort of person I'd be dealing with for the life of the puppy. Outrageous claims of guarantee seem a bit too good to believe in, and no guarantee sounds a bit like they don't have faith in the decisions that they're making. If I bought the puppy as show quality, I might accept a refund to the level of pet quality price. Or maybe not, we all take our chances. I had the fortune of falling in love with a wonderful breed of dog. It comes with many risks, and I accept those risks. I try my best to find ways to improve the breed, but I know what my chances are with each dog I take into my home. I've bought 2 Berners, rescued one, and rescued two other dogs. I never get a guarantee with a rescue, so maybe I'm just not well enough trained to expect one. Pat Long ( Luther) Berwyn PA
Berner toy find
I'm WAY behind on reading my L so if this has already appeared, I apologize. Today in a local pharmacy my Berner antennae when into full buzz mode as I spied what was undeniably a Berner plush toy several aisles away. Pounced scooped up a very adorable toy Berner puppy. In fact, I rescued all 3 puppies that the pharmacy had. The toy is approximately 9 tall sitting with a happy smile -- definitely show quality markings, right down to the white tail tip. On sale for just $6.99! Pharmacy was PharmaPlus (a chain that is apparently North American wide). This one was in the cute little town of Waterford, Ontario. So check out your local PharmaPlus for a new addition to your collection. The label on the toy doesn't give a manufacturer, just Imported by Katz Pharmacy Service Inc., Mississauga, Ontario. They had several other breeds too, including a German Shepherd, Saint Bernard, and Doberman. The Berner was the cutest of course! sue(Aeryn with Devyn Rowyn who tried desparately to chew on the new addition -- NOT!!)
re: the nature/nurture HD discussion
On 11 Nov 02, at 10:08, Sharon Montville wrote: Thank you for sharing your experience with HD. You do have a point regarding the breeding dogs. I'm not sure that I could personally try to stress to the max to make sure the dog is unaffected, but I can appreciate the value in doing that. Just want to clarify any misconception - I don't advocate deliberately stressing dogs to the max, even breeding stock. What I believe, did with my own potential breeding dog, and will likely do with any future breeding dog, is not coddle them. I wouldn't deliberately take my 6 month old pup jogging 2 miles with me every day (course, I doubt you'd ever see ME jogging 2 miles G). But I also won't baby them by preventing them from stairs and normal exercise, and even roughhousing - knowing that all the adult dogs I've had were gentle with smaller dogs and puppies. I'm not going to deliberately put them in the way of harm, but neither will I wrap them in cotton. Hope this clears up what I was trying to say. Another thought on the whole genetics/nutrition effect on HD. I think everyone pretty much agrees that genetics does affect HD. And I think everyone agrees that nutrition can affect HD. I even think that most everybody can agree that genetics can (but does not have to be) the sole factor in some cases of HD. The question seems to be whether nutrition alone can cause HD. In other words, can a dog that is not genetically predisposed for HD still get it due to diet and/or exercise - not including any possibility of injury? As Sherri I believe stated, the problem with trying to determine this is that we cannot, at this time, determine with certainty that a particular dog does not have the genes for HD. And I personally doubt that there is a line of Bernese anywhere that is completely free from any HD genes. So, chances are that the dog that appears to have HD caused by poor nutrition or exercise still has some genes for HD, even if they have not showed up in previous generations - especially since it is a rare line indeed that has EVERY pup from every litter in every generation of the pedigree radiographed. And if you aren't checking every single dog, you CANNOT say with 100% certainty that you do not have any HD in the lines. Melissa Melissa, Tyra and Orry Granite Falls, NC [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepage: http://home.talkcity.com/RedRoseRd/melissaz/index.html BEHAF Homepage: http://www.behaf.com
What dog Breed are you - revisited!
Thought I'd retake the What Breed of Dog are You test again after several months. Guess what - I came out a Bernese Mountain Dog - again. Only 14% of US respondents are BMD's. For newbies who have not had a chance to do this yet, the web site is: www.emode.com On the left side of the home screen is the link to the breed test. Have fun. Anne Copeland, Flash,TDI/CGC (Berner, 8 yrs.) Gypsy TDI/CGC(Rescue Cavalier,1 1/2 yr.) NE ILL [EMAIL PROTECTED] BMDCSEW Vice President Ty's memorial page: http://www.geocities.com/workingyorkie/ty.html Gypsy's page:http://hometown.aol.com/annes4/Gypsy.html
