Re: re; Innova - HATE IT!/ Now Hips/Elbows
Rusty Proper care is the key *** That is what I said and I agree with you. , proper care taking of the genes for they say it alland the genes are in the breeders hands ***Boy, do I agree with you again, BUT you can breed from a good line of dogs with lots of good health and Mother Nature can and does throw a nasty curve ball once in a while. That a Breeder cannot control. RB Ray Pat Burgett Eaglecap Bernese Talee,Lexi,Boomer,Bell Max www.goodbernerfood.com http://users.eoni.com/~eaglecap/ Draminski Ovulation Detector Rep
Re: re; Innova - HATE IT!/ Now Hips/Elbows
From: Ray Pat Burgett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Proper care is the key *** That is what I said and I agree with you. Cool, then everyone can get off everyone's case and stop the pointing fingers do xrays and then not breed those dogs that throw the bad orthos together! They your breed will be better off. , proper care taking of the genes for they say it alland the genes are in the breeders hands ***Boy, do I agree with you again, BUT you can breed from a good line of dogs with lots of good health and Mother Nature can and does throw a nasty curve ball once in a while. That a Breeder cannot control. Once again, as I said, the first time a dog or should I say dogs, are bred there is no telling how the genes will mix...but once they are bred and they together...I repeat...together throw bad orthos even if there is one gorgeous super showing dog they should never never never be bred again, ever to protect the breed. My HD fella is out of generations of Excellent clearances, I waited for him for I believed as did the breeder together I had a chance of getting a super intelligent, sound grand working fella, not to mention gorgeous. We were both wrong, but when he said he was going to breed the two again...I came unglued for that is ignorance, and has a great chance of causing pain in more pups and anguish with more owners. When I read a poor puppy buyer taking grief over then causing by not feeding exercising their pup this awful curse we call HD, I want to throw my puter across the room, go hug them and tell them it is not their fault, it is nature the first time the two are bred, neglect if it was a repeat and bad orthos shows in the first, or was this the second or fifth breeding of these two and out of the 40 other dogs produced how many were OFA'd, two, maybe five! I get windy on this subject and believe the PPOs should get educated and not just believe because someone is a member of a club or owns a dozen of a breed they are practicing ethics in breeding and truly care for the offspring's health and good long pain free lives! Read some of George Lust study he did over twenty five years or go to one of his seminars and then a light may go off in more brains as to exactly what a gene pool is and doesloads of pieces in that puzzle. Rusty C Good Company
Re: re; Innova - HATE IT!/ Now Hips/Elbows
Rusty C and Good Company I will not debate this subject any longer on the L as it has been done hundreds of times. But if I read what you wrote correctly we would have to eliminate all bloodlines from the Gene Pool as you will never find a blood line that has not had a health problem of some kind or another.. Prior to a breeding we did 5 years ago this March when our Red Berner Eaglecaps Hunt For Red October was born 2nd breeding of the two there were Red Bernese born in the late 60's or early 70's. the proper dates escape me right now. Those bloodlines where in the pedigrees of our stud, 12 generations back, 9 generations back on the bitch, should we have not bred those dogs for fear of getting a Red Berner. I think not!!! This is all I have to say on this thread. Ray Burgett Ray Pat Burgett Eaglecap Bernese Talee,Lexi,Boomer,Bell Max www.goodbernerfood.com http://users.eoni.com/~eaglecap/ Draminski Ovulation Detector Rep
Re: re; Innova - HATE IT!
Judy, How unfortunate. We have had exactly the opposite experience. All our puppies leave here with Innova adult being the first recommended kibble to the new owners (we do prefer raw). The stats for orthepedics of these dogs has been everything a breeder could hope for. Of course, there are other things that come in to play like over feeding, under exercising, over exercising etc.. But, we are more than pleased with the results of this kibble which we thoroughly researched before recommending. Lesley Rouillier Bernvonrust, Spring Brook, Ontario, Canada I know of two Berners fed Innova, and both are crippled beyond salvage Thank you, Innova. Judy Arneson-Johnson Kielerstar BMD (since 1984) Endicott, WA
Re: re; Innova - HATE IT!
From: Mary-Ann Bowman bad orthopedics are not caused by food -- it is in the genes I am afraid. Mary-Ann and all, I have to totally disagree that bad orthopedics are not/can not be caused by food. While heredity is a major factor you can *cause* orthopedic problems in a sound puppy, from sound parents. In my opinion, hip and elbow problems can be caused by a combination of factors including: heredity, nutrition, and environment. 1. Feeding a high protein/fat diet, one example would be the old Eukanuba puppy which had like 32% protein and 20% fat caused rapid growth (including bones) which can cause many problems including malformation of hip sockets, femur heads etc. 2. Allowing a puppy to jump off decks, run down stairs, and play roughly can cause FCP and other injuries. 3. It goes back to the fact that even if you have 4 generations of hip/elbow certified stock behind a puppy, that puppy could still develop problems if the nutrition and environment of the puppy is not properly controled by the owner. I try very hard to make sure that the owners of our babies are made aware of this, and how to try to avoid caused problems. Bernerly, Mary Jeff Mary Chapdelaine SnoBear Berners [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://snobear.freeyellow.com
Re: re; Innova - HATE IT!
I am very interested in the evidence you have to support those conclusion -- not personal opinion because that is always swayed by what we would like to believe -- but some real evidence. The OFA reports this on their website: Can Environment or Food Cause or Prevent HD? No, hip dysplasia is a multiple gene, inherited disease. Environmental factors, like high caloric diet during the rapid growth phase, may exacerbate changes in dysplastic hips but will not create hip dysplasia. and... Elbow dysplasia is a general term used to identify an inherited polygenic disease in the elbow of dogs. I believe the OFA -- they have nothing to gain or lose by telling us the truth. On the other hand, I think breeders making excuses for bad orthopedics is wrong, unethical and damaging to everyone involved -- including themselves. Mind you, I am not saying that is what you are doing but I for one am rather tired of hearing excuses for bad orthopedics, and I am especially sick of hearing it blamed on the owners (bad food, jumped off a grooming table, jumped from the car, too much exercise, too little exercise, on and on...). Hip and elbow dysplasia are inherited diseases, and pretending or wishing otherwise will not make those facts go away. Mary-Ann Bowman Utah
Re: re; Innova - HATE IT!/ Now Hips/Elbows
Here is question. If a puppy x-rayed 12 months would have fair hips. What would that puppy have at 12 months if it had been jogged with its owner on sidewalks or blacktop roads at a very young age. My guess is that its hips would be worse than fair. That is just my opinion for what's its worth. When a puppy leaves your home with its new owner who is loaded with good information about the best way to raise their new puppy and they chose to do it their way, food , exercise training, you as the breeder have lost most of the control when the car turns up or down the road and is headed for home which may be a very good home BUT what they choose to do is their choice not the breeders. RB Ray Pat Burgett Eaglecap Bernese Talee,Lexi,Boomer,Bell Max www.goodbernerfood.com http://users.eoni.com/~eaglecap/ Draminski Ovulation Detector Rep
Re: re; Innova - HATE IT!
In a message dated 11/06/2002 3:39:19 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Mind you, I am not saying that is what you are doing but I for one am rather tired of hearing excuses for bad orthopedics, and I am especially sick of hearing it blamed on the owners (bad food, jumped off a grooming table, jumped from the car, too much exercise, too little exercise, on and on...). Hip and elbow dysplasia are inherited diseases, and pretending or wishing otherwise will not make those facts go away. While I agree whole heartedly that the TENDENCY for poor joint orthopedics is inherited, whether the dysplasias are evidenced can be influenced by environmental factors. It is not likely that a dog with good genetics for joints will have a negative response to early jumping, poor diet, etc. Dogs with a genetic propensity for joint problems can , with the best of care and avoidance of challenges to its body, grow and live without showing those bad genetics. When I was breeding dogs, I believed in allowing my young dogs destined for the show ring, sled team or breeding to be challenged in many ways as I wanted any tendency toward dysplasia to be demonstrated if possible prior to their 2 year OFA clearances and their first breeding. On the other hand, I also recommended to pet dog owners to avoid these challenges if possible so as to reduce the opportunity to have joint problems in a dog destined to live a less strenuous life. Anne Copeland, Flash,TDI/CGC (Berner, 8 yrs.) Gypsy TDI/CGC(Rescue Cavalier,1 1/2 yr.) NE ILL [EMAIL PROTECTED] BMDCSEW Vice President Ty's memorial page: http://www.geocities.com/workingyorkie/ty.html Gypsy's page:http://hometown.aol.com/annes4/Gypsy.html
Re: re; Innova - HATE IT!
My three were all fed Innova as puppies. Mic and Nessie have excellent hips and Lliira good hips. Eileen Morgan The Mare's Nest http://www.enter.net/~edlehman - Original Message - From: mtndog [EMAIL PROTECTED] Every dog I have ever seen fed as a puppy on Innova has orthopedic problems. This was especially prevalent in the Cardigan Welsh Corgis.it caused premature closure of the growth plates in the front legs. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.410 / Virus Database: 231 - Release Date: 10/31/2002
