Re: [blfs-dev] pt.3 -- Re: Xorg bitmap fonts - deprecate them

[akhiezer]

> Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 23:17:40 +
> From: Ken Moffat <zarniwh...@ntlworld.com>
> Subject: Re: [blfs-dev] pt.3 -- Re:  Xorg bitmap fonts - deprecate them
>
> On Tue, Dec 06, 2016 at 09:24:50PM +, akhiezer wrote:
> > 
> > To reiterate in summary, addressing much of your words:
> > --
> > * the central point is about managing the book information, incl
> >   release engineering.
> > 
>
> At the moment, this is a proposed change.  If my fellow editors
> agree, something based on it will go into the development book.  If


You did ask for opinions please: now you seem to be restricting to
editors-only.


> there are then problems, it can be altered or reverted.
>
> > * it's better to do the phase-out as the two-stage process than the
> >   one-stage; that includes educational value.
>
> Says you.


( - childish pouting.)


>
> > --
> > It seems that maybe you are a bit too close to the fine-details of the
> > subject matter to see the wider-picture trees.
> > 
>
> That I will accept - those of us who are editing the book have


(Again, you seem to try to 'pull rank' back to editors-only, after
asking for opinions please. "Editing" does not auto-confer goodness on
person or their book content: and your current proposed edits contain
not-good aspects; and I'd contend that that is clearly and obviously so.)


> visions of where certain things can be improved.


('Visions', indeed.)


>
> > 
> > > > 
> > > > The legacy page should at this time include all of the fonts/ that
> > > > you've removed from elsewhere.
> > > > 
> > >
> > > On this, I disagree strongly.  We've carried multiple versions of
> > > some of the old fonts (bitmap, Type1, ttf) for too long.  Meanwhile
> > > current distros use TTF/OTF and even our own xterm page is already
> > > set to do that.
> > >
> > > BLFS, like LFS, is about learning AND about building leading-edge
> > > software.
> > >
> > > > And only after a few more book releases, then remove some/all of the
> > > > items from the book
> > > > 
> > > > That's a standard way of 'putting out to pasture' - phasing out - such
> > > > materials: don't just - for such a case - do the reorganise and remove
> > > > in same step.
> > > > 
> > >
> > > IFF somebody wants them, I provided links to the relevant page in
> > > the two 7.10 books.  But nobody really documented what those bitmap
> > > fonts were good for.  Initially they were part of monolithic X.
> > > So I have no idea *why* anybody might want them.  Do you have a
> > > use-case ?
> > >
> > > > It's ok though to prioritise at this time the focus on the
> > > > libXfont/bdftopcf/font-adobe-100dpi  .
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > > +
> > > > > +
> > > > > +  
> > > > > +
> > > > > +  
> > > > > +$LastChangedBy: dibbler $
> > > > > +$Date: 2038-01-19 03:14:07 + (Tue, 19 Jan 2038) 
> > > > > $
> > > > > +  
> > > > > +
> > > > > +  Xorg Legacy
> > > > > +
> > > > > +  
> > > > > +Xorg Legacy
> > > > > +  
> > > > > +
> > > > > +  
> > > > > +Introduction to Xorg Legacy
> > > > > +
> > > > > +Xorg originally provided bitmap 
> > > > > fonts,
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 'originally' implies that it now doesn't: does it still; if so then
> > > > reword.
> > > > 
> > > I can change originally to 'at first only'.
> > 
> > 
> > The 'at first only' is better.
> > 
> > 
> > >  Does that help you ?
> > 
> > 
> > ("Now, now"). It helps the book and readers of the book.
> > 
> > 
>
> So far, _you_ are the only person complaining about the wording, so


('Complaining' is your misapprehension.)


> I was asking if it helped you.


(You know 'fine well' the tone and weight of your phrasing: don't be
now transparently dishonest and try to pretend innocence and ignorance.)


> > > > 
> > > > > +and a tool (bdftopcf) to assist in their 
> > > > > installation.
> > > > > +With the introduction of 
> > > > > xorg-server-1.19.0
> > > > > +and libXfont2, many people will not 
> > > > > need

Re: [blfs-dev] pt.3 -- Re: Xorg bitmap fonts - deprecate them

[Ken Moffat]

On Tue, Dec 06, 2016 at 09:24:50PM +, akhiezer wrote:
> 
> To reiterate in summary, addressing much of your words:
> --
> * the central point is about managing the book information, incl
>   release engineering.
> 

At the moment, this is a proposed change.  If my fellow editors
agree, something based on it will go into the development book.  If
there are then problems, it can be altered or reverted.

> * it's better to do the phase-out as the two-stage process than the
>   one-stage; that includes educational value.

Says you.

> --
> It seems that maybe you are a bit too close to the fine-details of the
> subject matter to see the wider-picture trees.
> 

That I will accept - those of us who are editing the book have
visions of where certain things can be improved.

> 
> > > 
> > > The legacy page should at this time include all of the fonts/ that
> > > you've removed from elsewhere.
> > > 
> >
> > On this, I disagree strongly.  We've carried multiple versions of
> > some of the old fonts (bitmap, Type1, ttf) for too long.  Meanwhile
> > current distros use TTF/OTF and even our own xterm page is already
> > set to do that.
> >
> > BLFS, like LFS, is about learning AND about building leading-edge
> > software.
> >
> > > And only after a few more book releases, then remove some/all of the
> > > items from the book
> > > 
> > > That's a standard way of 'putting out to pasture' - phasing out - such
> > > materials: don't just - for such a case - do the reorganise and remove
> > > in same step.
> > > 
> >
> > IFF somebody wants them, I provided links to the relevant page in
> > the two 7.10 books.  But nobody really documented what those bitmap
> > fonts were good for.  Initially they were part of monolithic X.
> > So I have no idea *why* anybody might want them.  Do you have a
> > use-case ?
> >
> > > It's ok though to prioritise at this time the focus on the
> > > libXfont/bdftopcf/font-adobe-100dpi  .
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > +
> > > > +
> > > > +  
> > > > +
> > > > +  
> > > > +$LastChangedBy: dibbler $
> > > > +$Date: 2038-01-19 03:14:07 + (Tue, 19 Jan 2038) $
> > > > +  
> > > > +
> > > > +  Xorg Legacy
> > > > +
> > > > +  
> > > > +Xorg Legacy
> > > > +  
> > > > +
> > > > +  
> > > > +Introduction to Xorg Legacy
> > > > +
> > > > +Xorg originally provided bitmap 
> > > > fonts,
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 'originally' implies that it now doesn't: does it still; if so then
> > > reword.
> > > 
> > I can change originally to 'at first only'.
> 
> 
> The 'at first only' is better.
> 
> 
> >  Does that help you ?
> 
> 
> ("Now, now"). It helps the book and readers of the book.
> 
> 

So far, _you_ are the only person complaining about the wording, so
I was asking if it helped you.
> > > 
> > > > +and a tool (bdftopcf) to assist in their 
> > > > installation.
> > > > +With the introduction of 
> > > > xorg-server-1.19.0
> > > > +and libXfont2, many people will not 
> > > > need them.
> > > > +There are still a few old packages which might require, or benefit 
> > > > from,
> > > > +these deprecated fonts and so the following packages are shown 
> > > > here.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Those last two sentences - and in partic the last - are a bit too vague
> > > and ~hand-waving; and leave readers a bit too much in the dark.
> > > 
> >
> > Beyond the two packages from the book which I mention below, I have
> > no idea what strange desktop packages might still need bitmap fonts.
> > Possibly, somebody wrote an application years ago, abandonned it, and
> > somebody else is still using it.  In an infinite universe, anything
> > is possible.
> >
> > I know of the two packages in the book, I also recall that when I
> > first started looking at console fonts (probably in 2006 or 2007) I
> > initially started from a bdf source file, but I do not recall
> > whether it actually used bdftopcf, only that at the time somebody
> > used my variant to create a bitmapped psf and raised a bug.  Also,
> > the default Makefile of Terminus uses bdftopcf to create bitmap
> > fonts and some format for (I think) a BSD.
> >
> > > At least, for those packages (if any) that are in BLFS and that
> > > are _known_ or _thought_ to still require the now-legacy materials,
> > > they should be listed and linked-to explicitly: if there are only a
> > > few such packages (e.g. tigervnc ) then it's not a hassle to list;
> > > if the list were not short, then it'd call into question doing the
> > > 'legacy' stuff yet.
> > > 
> > They are linked *from* (tigervnc, xscreensaver).  As in the rest of
> > the book, we expect you to know what you want to build, and then
> > determin e the depen den cies and come up with a build order.  So
> > for everything else people who do that can build Xorg without t he
> > Xorg Legacy packages.
> > > > +
> > > > +
> > > > +  
> > > > +The font-adobe-100dpi package installs 100 dots per inch 
> > > > versions of
> > > > +Courier, Helvetica, New Century 

Re: [blfs-dev] pt.3 -- Re: Xorg bitmap fonts - deprecate them

[akhiezer]

> Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 20:54:32 +
> From: Ken Poppet <zarniwh...@ntlworld.com>
> Subject: Re: [blfs-dev] pt.3 -- Re:  Xorg bitmap fonts - deprecate them
>
> On Tue, Dec 06, 2016 at 03:55:57PM +, akhiezer wrote:
> > > Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 13:35:55 +
> > > From: Ken Moffat <zarniwh...@ntlworld.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [blfs-dev] Xorg bitmap fonts - deprecate them
> > >


To reiterate in summary, addressing much of your words:
--
* the central point is about managing the book information, incl
  release engineering.

* it's better to do the phase-out as the two-stage process than the
  one-stage; that includes educational value.
--
It seems that maybe you are a bit too close to the fine-details of the
subject matter to see the wider-picture trees.


> > 
> > The legacy page should at this time include all of the fonts/ that
> > you've removed from elsewhere.
> > 
>
> On this, I disagree strongly.  We've carried multiple versions of
> some of the old fonts (bitmap, Type1, ttf) for too long.  Meanwhile
> current distros use TTF/OTF and even our own xterm page is already
> set to do that.
>
> BLFS, like LFS, is about learning AND about building leading-edge
> software.
>
> > And only after a few more book releases, then remove some/all of the
> > items from the book.
> > 
> > That's a standard way of 'putting out to pasture' - phasing out - such
> > materials: don't just - for such a case - do the reorganise and remove
> > in same step.
> > 
>
> IFF somebody wants them, I provided links to the relevant page in
> the two 7.10 books.  But nobody really documented what those bitmap
> fonts were good for.  Initially they were part of monolithic X.
> So I have no idea *why* anybody might want them.  Do you have a
> use-case ?
>
> > It's ok though to prioritise at this time the focus on the
> > libXfont/bdftopcf/font-adobe-100dpi  .
> > 
> > 
> > > +
> > > +
> > > +  
> > > +
> > > +  
> > > +$LastChangedBy: dibbler $
> > > +$Date: 2038-01-19 03:14:07 + (Tue, 19 Jan 2038) $
> > > +  
> > > +
> > > +  Xorg Legacy
> > > +
> > > +  
> > > +Xorg Legacy
> > > +  
> > > +
> > > +  
> > > +Introduction to Xorg Legacy
> > > +
> > > +Xorg originally provided bitmap 
> > > fonts,
> > 
> > 
> > 'originally' implies that it now doesn't: does it still; if so then
> > reword.
> > 
> I can change originally to 'at first only'.


The 'at first only' is better.


>  Does that help you ?


("Now, now"). It helps the book and readers of the book.


> > 
> > > +and a tool (bdftopcf) to assist in their 
> > > installation.
> > > +With the introduction of 
> > > xorg-server-1.19.0
> > > +and libXfont2, many people will not need 
> > > them.
> > > +There are still a few old packages which might require, or benefit 
> > > from,
> > > +these deprecated fonts and so the following packages are shown 
> > > here.
> > 
> > 
> > Those last two sentences - and in partic the last - are a bit too vague
> > and ~hand-waving; and leave readers a bit too much in the dark.
> > 
>
> Beyond the two packages from the book which I mention below, I have
> no idea what strange desktop packages might still need bitmap fonts.
> Possibly, somebody wrote an application years ago, abandonned it, and
> somebody else is still using it.  In an infinite universe, anything
> is possible.
>
> I know of the two packages in the book, I also recall that when I
> first started looking at console fonts (probably in 2006 or 2007) I
> initially started from a bdf source file, but I do not recall
> whether it actually used bdftopcf, only that at the time somebody
> used my variant to create a bitmapped psf and raised a bug.  Also,
> the default Makefile of Terminus uses bdftopcf to create bitmap
> fonts and some format for (I think) a BSD.
>
> > At least, for those packages (if any) that are in BLFS and that
> > are _known_ or _thought_ to still require the now-legacy materials,
> > they should be listed and linked-to explicitly: if there are only a
> > few such packages (e.g. tigervnc ) then it's not a hassle to list;
> > if the list were not short, then it'd call into question doing the
> > 'legacy' stuff yet.
> > 
> They are linked *from* (tigervnc, xscreensaver).  As in the rest of
> the book, we expect you to know what you want to build, and then
> determin e the depen den 

Re: [blfs-dev] pt.3 -- Re: Xorg bitmap fonts - deprecate them

[Ken Moffat]

On Tue, Dec 06, 2016 at 03:55:57PM +, akhiezer wrote:
> > Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 13:35:55 +
> > From: Ken Moffat 
> > Subject: Re: [blfs-dev] Xorg bitmap fonts - deprecate them
> >
> 
> The legacy page should at this time include all of the fonts/ that
> you've removed from elsewhere.
> 

On this, I disagree strongly.  We've carried multiple versions of
some of the old fonts (bitmap, Type1, ttf) for too long.  Meanwhile
current distros use TTF/OTF and even our own xterm page is already
set to do that.

BLFS, like LFS, is about learning AND about building leading-edge
software.

> And only after a few more book releases, then remove some/all of the
> items from the book.
> 
> That's a standard way of 'putting out to pasture' - phasing out - such
> materials: don't just - for such a case - do the reorganise and remove
> in same step.
> 

IFF somebody wants them, I provided links to the relevant page in
the two 7.10 books.  But nobody really documented what those bitmap
fonts were good for.  Initially they were part of monolithic X.
So I have no idea *why* anybody might want them.  Do you have a
use-case ?

> It's ok though to prioritise at this time the focus on the
> libXfont/bdftopcf/font-adobe-100dpi  .
> 
> 
> > +
> > +
> > +  
> > +
> > +  
> > +$LastChangedBy: dibbler $
> > +$Date: 2038-01-19 03:14:07 + (Tue, 19 Jan 2038) $
> > +  
> > +
> > +  Xorg Legacy
> > +
> > +  
> > +Xorg Legacy
> > +  
> > +
> > +  
> > +Introduction to Xorg Legacy
> > +
> > +Xorg originally provided bitmap fonts,
> 
> 
> 'originally' implies that it now doesn't: does it still; if so then
> reword.
> 
I can change originally to 'at first only'.  Does that help you ?
> 
> > +and a tool (bdftopcf) to assist in their 
> > installation.
> > +With the introduction of xorg-server-1.19.0
> > +and libXfont2, many people will not need 
> > them.
> > +There are still a few old packages which might require, or benefit 
> > from,
> > +these deprecated fonts and so the following packages are shown 
> > here.
> 
> 
> Those last two sentences - and in partic the last - are a bit too vague
> and ~hand-waving; and leave readers a bit too much in the dark.
> 

Beyond the two packages from the book which I mention below, I have
no idea what strange desktop packages might still need bitmap fonts.
Possibly, somebody wrote an application years ago, abandonned it, and
somebody else is still using it.  In an infinite universe, anything
is possible.

I know of the two packages in the book, I also recall that when I
first started looking at console fonts (probably in 2006 or 2007) I
initially started from a bdf source file, but I do not recall
whether it actually used bdftopcf, only that at the time somebody
used my variant to create a bitmapped psf and raised a bug.  Also,
the default Makefile of Terminus uses bdftopcf to create bitmap
fonts and some format for (I think) a BSD.

> At least, for those packages (if any) that are in BLFS and that
> are _known_ or _thought_ to still require the now-legacy materials,
> they should be listed and linked-to explicitly: if there are only a
> few such packages (e.g. tigervnc ) then it's not a hassle to list;
> if the list were not short, then it'd call into question doing the
> 'legacy' stuff yet.
> 
They are linked *from* (tigervnc, xscreensaver).  As in the rest of
the book, we expect you to know what you want to build, and then
determin e the depen den cies and come up with a build order.  So
for everything else people who do that can build Xorg without t he
Xorg Legacy packages.
> > +
> > +
> > +  
> > +The font-adobe-100dpi package installs 100 dots per inch versions 
> > of
> > +Courier, Helvetica, New Century Schoolbook and Times fonts. In 
> > previous
> > +versions of BLFS a lot more fonts were installed, and also 75 dots 
> > per
> 
> 
> s/and also/including/
> 
> or maybe even (less good)
> 
> s/and also/plus/
> 
>  - but _NOT_ 'and also'; red pen.
> 

Sorry, if you apply a red pen I'm inclined to screw up the paper and
put it in the bin ;-)  In the country where I live, this is perfectly
acceptable in most written English (and as a nation we now denigrate
experts).

I can change it to 'installed, also'.
> > +inch versions.
> > +  
> > +
> > +  
> > +   Please consult the BLFS-7.10 book at  > +   url="http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/blfs/view/7.10/x/x7font.html"/>
> > +   if you wish to install any of those other fonts.
> 
> 
> Still too vague: you're leaving readers to hunt'n'peck, while you
> know what they're likely to be looking for.

No, I *don't* know why anybody would want to use any of the other
bitmap fonts.

> Again: for packages in
> BLFS that are known/thought to still require the legacy materials,
> state the details explicitly. As noted, such materials should anyhow
> be listed in legacy page.
> 

Again, I disagree strongly.  The adobe fonts (which I 

[blfs-dev] pt.3 -- Re: Xorg bitmap fonts - deprecate them

[akhiezer]

> Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 13:35:55 +
> From: Ken Moffat 
> Subject: Re: [blfs-dev] Xorg bitmap fonts - deprecate them
>
.
.
> diff -Naur BOOK-r18030/x/installing/x7legacy.xml 
> BOOK-deprecate/x/installing/x7legacy.xml
> --- BOOK-r18030/x/installing/x7legacy.xml 1970-01-01 01:00:00.0 
> +0100
> +++ BOOK-deprecate/x/installing/x7legacy.xml  2016-12-06 11:37:04.231916269 
> +
> @@ -0,0 +1,229 @@
> +
> + +   "http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.5/docbookx.dtd; [
> +  
> +  %general-entities;
> +
> +  
> +  
> +  
> +  
> +  
> +
> +  
> +   "254ee42bd178d18ebc7a73aacfde7f79">
> +
> +  
> +   "53a48e1fdfec29ab2e89f86d4b7ca902">
> +
> +  
> +   "1347c3031b74c9e91dc4dfa53b12f143">
> +
> +]>


The legacy page should at this time include all of the fonts/ that
you've removed from elsewhere.

And only after a few more book releases, then remove some/all of the
items from the book.

That's a standard way of 'putting out to pasture' - phasing out - such
materials: don't just - for such a case - do the reorganise and remove
in same step.

It's ok though to prioritise at this time the focus on the
libXfont/bdftopcf/font-adobe-100dpi  .


> +
> +
> +  
> +
> +  
> +$LastChangedBy: dibbler $
> +$Date: 2038-01-19 03:14:07 + (Tue, 19 Jan 2038) $
> +  
> +
> +  Xorg Legacy
> +
> +  
> +Xorg Legacy
> +  
> +
> +  
> +Introduction to Xorg Legacy
> +
> +Xorg originally provided bitmap fonts,


'originally' implies that it now doesn't: does it still; if so then
reword.


> +and a tool (bdftopcf) to assist in their installation.
> +With the introduction of xorg-server-1.19.0
> +and libXfont2, many people will not need them.
> +There are still a few old packages which might require, or benefit from,
> +these deprecated fonts and so the following packages are shown 
> here.


Those last two sentences - and in partic the last - are a bit too vague
and ~hand-waving; and leave readers a bit too much in the dark.

At least, for those packages (if any) that are in BLFS and that
are _known_ or _thought_ to still require the now-legacy materials,
they should be listed and linked-to explicitly: if there are only a
few such packages (e.g. tigervnc ) then it's not a hassle to list;
if the list were not short, then it'd call into question doing the
'legacy' stuff yet.


> +
> +
> +  
> +The font-adobe-100dpi package installs 100 dots per inch versions of
> +Courier, Helvetica, New Century Schoolbook and Times fonts. In 
> previous
> +versions of BLFS a lot more fonts were installed, and also 75 dots 
> per


s/and also/including/

or maybe even (less good)

s/and also/plus/

 - but _NOT_ 'and also'; red pen.


> +inch versions.
> +  
> +
> +  
> +   Please consult the BLFS-7.10 book at  +   url="http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/blfs/view/7.10/x/x7font.html"/>
> +   if you wish to install any of those other fonts.


Still too vague: you're leaving readers to hunt'n'peck, while you
know what they're likely to be looking for. Again: for packages in
BLFS that are known/thought to still require the legacy materials,
state the details explicitly. As noted, such materials should anyhow
be listed in legacy page.


> +  
> +
> +  
> +   Please consult the BLFS-7.10 systemd book at  +   
> url="http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/blfs/view/7.10-systemd/x/x7font.html"/>
> +   if you wish to install any of those other fonts.
> +  
> +
> +


Ditto.


>
.
.
> +Downloading Xorg Legacy
> +
> +First, create a list of files to be downloaded. This file will also
> +be used to verify the integrity of the downloads when complete:
> +
> +cat  legacy.dat  "EOF"
> + lib/ libXfont-.tar.bz2
> + app/ bdftopcf-.tar.bz2
> + font/ 
> font-adobe-100dpi-.tar.bz2
> +EOF
> +
> +To download the needed files using wget,
> +use the following commands:
> +
> +mkdir legacy 
> +cd legacy 
> +grep -v '^#' ../legacy.dat | awk '{print $2$3}' | wget -i- -c \
> +-B / 
> +grep -v '^#' ../legacy.dat | awk '{print $1 " " $3}' >../legacy.md5 
> 
> +md5sum -c ../legacy.md5
> +   
> 


Not sure exactly what that comment means. D'you mean, how to pass it
through to wget? If so, then use a '<<<' construct:

$
while read x y z spng; do
  some_cmds;
done <<< "$(
{
  grep -vE '^[[:blank:]]*(#|$)' ../legacy.dat ;
}
)" ;
$


>
.
.
>



hth,
akh





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