On Tue, Dec 06, 2016 at 09:24:50PM +0000, akhiezer wrote:
>
> To reiterate in summary, addressing much of your words:
> --
> * the central point is about managing the book information, incl
> release engineering.
>
At the moment, this is a proposed change. If my fellow editors
agree, something based on it will go into the development book. If
there are then problems, it can be altered or reverted.
> * it's better to do the phase-out as the two-stage process than the
> one-stage; that includes educational value.
Says you.
> --
> It seems that maybe you are a bit too close to the fine-details of the
> subject matter to see the wider-picture trees.
>
That I will accept - those of us who are editing the book have
visions of where certain things can be improved.
>
> > >
> > > The legacy page should at this time include all of the fonts/&c that
> > > you've removed from elsewhere.
> > >
> >
> > On this, I disagree strongly. We've carried multiple versions of
> > some of the old fonts (bitmap, Type1, ttf) for too long. Meanwhile
> > current distros use TTF/OTF and even our own xterm page is already
> > set to do that.
> >
> > BLFS, like LFS, is about learning AND about building leading-edge
> > software.
> >
> > > And only after a few more book releases, then remove some/all of the
> > > items from the book
> > >
> > > That's a standard way of 'putting out to pasture' - phasing out - such
> > > materials: don't just - for such a case - do the reorganise and remove
> > > in same step.
> > >
> >
> > IFF somebody wants them, I provided links to the relevant page in
> > the two 7.10 books. But nobody really documented what those bitmap
> > fonts were good for. Initially they were part of monolithic X.
> > So I have no idea *why* anybody might want them. Do you have a
> > use-case ?
> >
> > > It's ok though to prioritise at this time the focus on the
> > > libXfont/bdftopcf/font-adobe-100dpi .
> > >
> > >
> > > > +
> > > > +<sect1 id="xorg7-legacy" xreflabel="Xorg Legacy">
> > > > + <?dbhtml filename="x7legacy.html"?>
> > > > +
> > > > + <sect1info>
> > > > + <othername>$LastChangedBy: dibbler $</othername>
> > > > + <date>$Date: 2038-01-19 03:14:07 +0000 (Tue, 19 Jan 2038) $</date>
> > > > + </sect1info>
> > > > +
> > > > + <title>Xorg Legacy</title>
> > > > +
> > > > + <indexterm zone="xorg7-legacy">
> > > > + <primary sortas="a-xorg7-legacy">Xorg Legacy</primary>
> > > > + </indexterm>
> > > > +
> > > > + <sect2 role="package">
> > > > + <title>Introduction to Xorg Legacy</title>
> > > > +
> > > > + <para><application>Xorg</application> originally provided bitmap
> > > > fonts,
> > >
> > >
> > > 'originally' implies that it now doesn't: does it still; if so then
> > > reword.
> > >
> > I can change originally to 'at first only'.
>
>
> The 'at first only' is better.
>
>
> > Does that help you ?
>
>
> ("Now, now"). It helps the book and readers of the book.
>
>
So far, _you_ are the only person complaining about the wording, so
I was asking if it helped you.
> > >
> > > > + and a tool (<command>bdftopcf</command>) to assist in their
> > > > installation.
> > > > + With the introduction of
> > > > <application>xorg-server-1.19.0</application>
> > > > + and <application>libXfont2</application>, many people will not
> > > > need them.
> > > > + There are still a few old packages which might require, or benefit
> > > > from,
> > > > + these deprecated fonts and so the following packages are shown
> > > > here.</para>
> > >
> > >
> > > Those last two sentences - and in partic the last - are a bit too vague
> > > and ~hand-waving; and leave readers a bit too much in the dark.
> > >
> >
> > Beyond the two packages from the book which I mention below, I have
> > no idea what strange desktop packages might still need bitmap fonts.
> > Possibly, somebody wrote an application years ago, abandonned it, and
> > somebody else is still using it. In an infinite universe, anything
> > is possible.
> >
> > I know of the two packages in the book, I also recall that when I
> > first started looking at console fonts (probably in 2006 or 2007) I
> > initially started from a bdf source file, but I do not recall
> > whether it actually used bdftopcf, only that at the time somebody
> > used my variant to create a bitmapped psf and raised a bug. Also,
> > the default Makefile of Terminus uses bdftopcf to create bitmap
> > fonts and some format for (I think) a BSD.
> >
> > > At least, for those packages (if any) that are in BLFS and that
> > > are _known_ or _thought_ to still require the now-legacy materials,
> > > they should be listed and linked-to explicitly: if there are only a
> > > few such packages (e.g. tigervnc &c) then it's not a hassle to list;
> > > if the list were not short, then it'd call into question doing the
> > > 'legacy' stuff yet.
> > >
> > They are linked *from* (tigervnc, xscreensaver). As in the rest of
> > the book, we expect you to know what you want to build, and then
> > determin e the depen den cies and come up with a build order. So
> > for everything else people who do that can build Xorg without t he
> > Xorg Legacy packages.
> > > > +
> > > > + <note>
> > > > + <para>
> > > > + The font-adobe-100dpi package installs 100 dots per inch
> > > > versions of
> > > > + Courier, Helvetica, New Century Schoolbook and Times fonts. In
> > > > previous
> > > > + versions of BLFS a lot more fonts were installed, and also 75
> > > > dots per
> > >
> > >
> > > s/and also/including/
> > >
> > > or maybe even (less good)
> > >
> > > s/and also/plus/
> > >
> > > - but _NOT_ 'and also'; red pen.
> > >
> >
> > Sorry, if you apply a red pen I'm inclined to screw up the paper and
> > put it in the bin ;-)
>
>
> Still wrong, though.
>
> (But do go ahead and screw/toss your materials if you prefer.)
>
I didn't say I was going to toss out what I'd prepared - only the
piece of paper where you thought you had the right to mark the
grammar.
>
> > In the country where I live, this is perfectly
> > acceptable in most written English
>
>
> It's still known-bad use of English.
>
Ooh. I will now assert that English is a *living* language, and
asserting that there is one good form for all situations (and
therefore others can be known-bad) is false.
>
> > (and as a nation we now denigrate
> > experts).
>
>
> ( - 'meeja'-speak. No you don't.)
>
As a nation, we do. I might not like that, but the voters have
spoken.
>
> >
> > I can change it to 'installed, also'.
>
>
> That'd be even worse use of English.
>
> The 'including' is better sense, given what the two sentences of the
> para are saying.
>
>
> > > > + inch versions.
> > > > + </para>
> > > > +
> > > > + <para revision="sysv">
> > > > + Please consult the BLFS-7.10 book at <ulink
> > > > +
> > > > url="http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/blfs/view/7.10/x/x7font.html"/>
> > > > + if you wish to install any of those other fonts.
> > >
> > >
> > > Still too vague: you're leaving readers to hunt'n'peck, while you
> > > know what they're likely to be looking for.
> >
> > No, I *don't* know why anybody would want to use any of the other
> > bitmap fonts.
> >
> > > Again: for packages in
> > > BLFS that are known/thought to still require the legacy materials,
> > > state the details explicitly. As noted, such materials should anyhow
> > > be listed in legacy page.
> > >
> >
> > Again, I disagree strongly. The adobe fonts (which I listed on the
> > page) seem to be all that is necessary. If you read a non-latin
> > writing system then they might be inadequate - I would not know, and
> > I assume that people building a BLFS desktop for such users will be
> > using TTF or OTF fonts.
> >
> > >
> > > > + </para>
> > > > +
> > > > + <para revision="systemd">
> > > > + Please consult the BLFS-7.10 systemd book at <ulink
> > > > +
> > > > url="http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/blfs/view/7.10-systemd/x/x7font.html"/>
> > > > + if you wish to install any of those other fonts.
> > > > + </para>
> > > > + </note>
> > > > +
> > >
> > >
> > > Ditto.
> > >
> > Only one of those paragraphs will apply in a particular book, so
> > obviously your comment has to apply to both of them.
>
>
> - just some extra clarification & aide-memoire place-marker, erring
> on the safe side: e.g. it's presumably also "obvious" to you that if
> you remove a font entry from one list, then you'd remove it from the
> essentially same-list/same-context elsewhere; but not everyone would
> always _do_ such an "obvious" thing; and an aide-memoire place-marker
> clarificatory check-item can help avoid such omissions.
Of course. And unlike you, I make a lot of mistakes - even while
developing the book. I am once again doubtful about using my time
to reply to you.
ĸen
--
`I shall take my mountains', said Lu-Tze. `The climate will be good
for them.' -- Small Gods
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