Re: Screen reader advice for a Linux sysadmin

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Uh, this conversion has lost its focus.

We were discussing the native viability of the OS X Terminal for TTS
based screen reader use. My mention of Speakup on a laptop was intended
as illustrative, not an expression of concern.

As it happens, I had no problem running Speakup in a VMware Linux vm and
using my Mac's CapsLock plus the Fn key (in the lower left corner of my
Airbook) to get the Speakup popup.

in fact, if memory serves, I offered that it was so much superior to
native Terminal in my experience, that I would ssh from my Linux vm to
perform native OS X tasks.

Janina

Linux for blind general discussion writes:
> Ahh. But you can change they Speakup key to be something other than the 
> CapsLock key.
> I modified my keymap to use the Alt key instead of Caps Lock.
> 
> Here's how I modified mine.
> su - root
> cat /speakup/keymap > keymap.new
> vi keymap.new
> 
> Within vi I changed
> 58, 128, 128, 0, 0, 0, 0,
> to
> 56, 128, 128, 0, 0, 0, 0,
> 
> Where 58 is the keycode  for the CapsLock key, and 56   is the
> Keycode for the Alt key.
> 
> then I did:
> cat keymap.new > /speakup/keymap
> 
> And viola, the Alt key worked as my Speakup key.
> 
> Be warned. Tampering with your keymap can be dangerous. 
> Never make a new keymap part of your boot process until you have
> tested it very, very thoroughly.
> 
> Good luck.
> 
> On Wed, Mar 07, 2018 at 10:08:26AM -0500, Linux for blind general discussion 
> wrote:
> > Ah, precisely my point. There's no numpad on an Airbook. This isn't a
> > problem for Speakup in Linux where you simply use CapsLock as a
> > modifier. But that's a doing anything robust with CapsLock is a long
> > standing issue with Macintosh.
> > 
> > Linux for blind general discussion writes:
> > > 
> > > In voiceovr configuration there are key and numpad commander settings.  
> > > Speech functions can be attached to them.  The key commanders can be
> > > used with any keyboarrd, numpad commanders are best suited where there is 
> > > a numpad.
> > > 
> > > On Mon, 5 Mar 2018, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Linux for blind general discussion writes:
> > > > >
> > > > > Voiceover can be made to act exactly like speakup using the numpad 
> > > > > keys.
> > > > >
> > > > On an Airbook? How?
> > > >
> > > > > On Thu, 1 Mar 2018, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Oh, yes, one can do this with Voice Over, but it's so very, very
> > > > > > cumbersome compared to using Speakup's numeric keypad screen review.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I just don't have all day to fuss with VO. Just my experience.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Janina
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Linux for blind general discussion writes:
> > > > > > > -eric,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I honestly do not have any special software or configerations to 
> > > > > > > interact with the Unix console. I have noticed that each person 
> > > > > > > who is having issues with the Mac terminal have in common. 
> > > > > > > Remember Voiceover requires that you use the VoiceOver keys to 
> > > > > > > navigate the VoiceOver cursor. It is similar to the flat review 
> > > > > > > in Linux but uses different keys. You have to hold down the CTRL 
> > > > > > > + CMD keys to move the cursor. In addition to these keys you have 
> > > > > > > to make sure you are interacting with the terminal window. 
> > > > > > > VoiceOver requires that you are "interacting" with windows for 
> > > > > > > VoiceOver to read the contents of that window. To do this you 
> > > > > > > press the Shift key + CTRL + CMD + the down arrow. In terms of 
> > > > > > > the terminal window you would listen for "Shell" and perform the 
> > > > > > > interaction command. From this point you would use the VoiceOver 
> > > > > > > navigation commands to move around the stdout including the man 
> > > > > > > pages.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > To interact with the man pages simply execute the man page you 
> > > > > > > are interested in then use the above commands to read it. Once 
> > > > > > > you have read the currently displayed page you would press the 
> > > > > > > space bar to bring up the next section of the man page. You can 
> > > > > > > tell if there is additional pages not being displayed because at 
> > > > > > > the bottom there will be a : displayed letting you know there are 
> > > > > > > more pages to show. To exit the man pages you would simply type 
> > > > > > > the letter q. I typically will execute this command to have more 
> > > > > > > control of the man docs and can review them later.
> > > > > > > $ man grep >> grep.txt
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I am sure you understand what that is doing but in case someone 
> > > > > > > does not it is basically redirecting the stdout from the man 
> > > > > > > command to a file named grep.txt. I then will use vim or cat to 
> > > > > > > read the documentation. Hope this helps
> > > > > > > Bryan Duarte | software engineer
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ASU 

Re: Screen reader advice for a Linux sysadmin

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Ah, precisely my point. There's no numpad on an Airbook. This isn't a
problem for Speakup in Linux where you simply use CapsLock as a
modifier. But that's a doing anything robust with CapsLock is a long
standing issue with Macintosh.

Linux for blind general discussion writes:
> 
> In voiceovr configuration there are key and numpad commander settings.  
> Speech functions can be attached to them.  The key commanders can be
> used with any keyboarrd, numpad commanders are best suited where there is a 
> numpad.
> 
> On Mon, 5 Mar 2018, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
> 
> > Linux for blind general discussion writes:
> > >
> > > Voiceover can be made to act exactly like speakup using the numpad keys.
> > >
> > On an Airbook? How?
> >
> > > On Thu, 1 Mar 2018, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
> > >
> > > > Oh, yes, one can do this with Voice Over, but it's so very, very
> > > > cumbersome compared to using Speakup's numeric keypad screen review.
> > > >
> > > > I just don't have all day to fuss with VO. Just my experience.
> > > >
> > > > Janina
> > > >
> > > > Linux for blind general discussion writes:
> > > > > -eric,
> > > > >
> > > > > I honestly do not have any special software or configerations to 
> > > > > interact with the Unix console. I have noticed that each person who 
> > > > > is having issues with the Mac terminal have in common. Remember 
> > > > > Voiceover requires that you use the VoiceOver keys to navigate the 
> > > > > VoiceOver cursor. It is similar to the flat review in Linux but uses 
> > > > > different keys. You have to hold down the CTRL + CMD keys to move the 
> > > > > cursor. In addition to these keys you have to make sure you are 
> > > > > interacting with the terminal window. VoiceOver requires that you are 
> > > > > "interacting" with windows for VoiceOver to read the contents of that 
> > > > > window. To do this you press the Shift key + CTRL + CMD + the down 
> > > > > arrow. In terms of the terminal window you would listen for "Shell" 
> > > > > and perform the interaction command. From this point you would use 
> > > > > the VoiceOver navigation commands to move around the stdout including 
> > > > > the man pages.
> > > > >
> > > > > To interact with the man pages simply execute the man page you are 
> > > > > interested in then use the above commands to read it. Once you have 
> > > > > read the currently displayed page you would press the space bar to 
> > > > > bring up the next section of the man page. You can tell if there is 
> > > > > additional pages not being displayed because at the bottom there will 
> > > > > be a : displayed letting you know there are more pages to show. To 
> > > > > exit the man pages you would simply type the letter q. I typically 
> > > > > will execute this command to have more control of the man docs and 
> > > > > can review them later.
> > > > > $ man grep >> grep.txt
> > > > >
> > > > > I am sure you understand what that is doing but in case someone does 
> > > > > not it is basically redirecting the stdout from the man command to a 
> > > > > file named grep.txt. I then will use vim or cat to read the 
> > > > > documentation. Hope this helps
> > > > > Bryan Duarte | software engineer
> > > > >
> > > > > ASU Computer Science Ph.D Student
> > > > > IGERT Fellow
> > > > > Alliance for Person-centered Accessible Technology (APAcT)
> > > > > Center for Cognitive Ubiquitous Computing (CUbiC Lab)
> > > > > National Federation of the Blind of Arizona | Affiliate Board Member
> > > > > National Association of Blind Students | Board Member
> > > > > Arizona Association of Blind Students | President
> > > > > Phone: 480-652-3045
> > > > >
> > > > > > On Feb 28, 2018, at 5:03 PM, Linux for blind general discussion 
> > > > > >  wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -eric
> > > > >
> > > > > ___
> > > > > Blinux-list mailing list
> > > > > Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > > > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > XB
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Blinux-list mailing list
> > > Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >
> >
> 
> -- 
> XB
> 
> ___
> Blinux-list mailing list
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-- 

Janina Sajka

Linux Foundation Fellow
Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup:   http://a11y.org

The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
Chair, Accessible Platform Architectureshttp://www.w3.org/wai/apa

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Re: Screen reader advice for a Linux sysadmin

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Hi, Bryan:

A few comments ...

I've not done it myself, but I understand you can indeed use VirtualBox
on a Mac as long as you do all the setup from the terminal. GUI
installation and configuration is apparently unavailable, but everything
one needs to do to get an accessible talking vm can be accomplished from
the cli. This is on my todo list, but it's not high on my current list
at the moment.

Parallels isn't doable. Forget Parallels.

When I had first Fedora, and then Arch running on my Mac Airbook, it was
under VMware. I believe I relied on sighted assistance for the Linux
side of the installation with Fedora. I honestly don't recall about
Arch--might have been fully accessible.

Configuring the vm was relatively straight forward. The process was
setting VMware for bridged networking and then assigning static IPs for
VMware guests via directly editing VMware configuration files on the
Mac, following which I could ssh to the guest vm and perform additional
setup. I opted for a no login configuration as running the guest vm
already required me to login on the Mac. I was able to configure my
Linux for multiple terminals via a script that ran openvt.

Running Speakup in the guest vm was snappy and fully functional. Running
Orca also worked, but was a bit trickier as there's more key mapping
involved.

The only thing I believe I could not get functioning, as I recall, was the beep 
on
backspace, but I'm also not confident this is true. It's been awhile
since I had this system. Basically, I got tired of sending VMware more
money every few months.

I did have difficulty moving back and forth between the vm and the host
OS. I never got that as clean as I would want.

hth

Janina

Linux for blind general discussion writes:
> 
> I would be curious to hear how you were successful in using a virtual box to 
> run any other operating system when using a screen reader to interact with 
> your machine? I have tried VMware Fusion on my Mac, Virtualbox, and Parallels 
> with absolutely no great success. Virtualbox is completely inaccessible, 
> Parallels only has a visual install process, and VMware fusion even through 
> it was able to be installed and ran I was finding that no matter what I did 
> some how the key commands I was issuing to my virtual machine acted as OS 
> commands and took me out of th virtual machine. If you were in deed able to 
> run a virtual instance of Linux on a Mac and rely on a screen reader for 
> computer interaction I would be curious as to how you got it to work. 
> 
> I agree Voiceover does lose focus of the terminal windo pretty often but I do 
> not see much difference between issuing one command to interact with the 
> shell or to enter flat review. One thing I did like about Orca was that when 
> you issue the command in the console it begins reading from the top but just 
> as with any other screen reader once you stop the speech it just places your 
> cursor at the bottom of the output window.
> 
> I have not used speakup before but at some point I will have to find the 
> packages to get it on my Ubuntu box. I appreciate Orca for some things but it 
> is not enough as a stand alone tool in my opinion. It would be great for 
> someone to post some configerations of their Ubuntu box which uses Orca, 
> Speakup, and whatever tools they use to make their machine the most efficient 
> for the desktop, terminal, and with speech output. Thanks
> Bryan Duarte | software engineer
> 
> ASU Computer Science Ph.D Student
> IGERT Fellow
> Alliance for Person-centered Accessible Technology (APAcT)
> Center for Cognitive Ubiquitous Computing (CUbiC Lab)
> National Federation of the Blind of Arizona | Affiliate Board Member
> National Association of Blind Students | Board Member
> Arizona Association of Blind Students | President
> Phone: 480-652-3045
> 
> > On Mar 5, 2018, at 8:36 AM, Linux for blind general discussion 
> >  wrote:
> > 
> > Hi Janina and all,
> > 
> > On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 11:21:47AM -0500, Linux for blind general 
> > discussion wrote:
> >>> 2. You said "After using a Mac for a few weeks at work I was very 
> >>> disappointed. 
> >>> Especialy the VoiceOver support in the terminal is not more then 
> >>> rudimentary compared to the things you can do with a screenreader on a 
> >>> linux system."
> >>> 
> >> This is my experience precisely with my Mac Airbook.
> >> 
> >> In fact, while traveling with only the Airbook, I would ssh from a
> >> VMware Linux session into my Mac to do Mac terminal tasks, because of
> >> the superior screen reader support.
> > 
> > I also did it that way and installed a VM with Debian in VMware Fusion 
> > to get my tasks, that needed to be done in a terminal, done on my Mac 
> > Book Air.
> > 
> >> As noted above, braille would viciate my statement. I'm speaking of TTS
> >> only interfacing.
> > 
> > Me too. Because I learned braille when I was 15 years old, tts is much 
> > more important to me than braille. I only use 

Re: Screen reader advice for a Linux sysadmin

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Hi!
Well, Vmware fusion works fine here but an upgrade is to expensive for me.
VIrtualbox can be triggered from the console or terminal.
Paralels desktop is not accessible.
/A

> 5 mars 2018 kl. 22:07 skrev Linux for blind general discussion 
> :
> 
> 
> I would be curious to hear how you were successful in using a virtual box to 
> run any other operating system when using a screen reader to interact with 
> your machine? I have tried VMware Fusion on my Mac, Virtualbox, and Parallels 
> with absolutely no great success. Virtualbox is completely inaccessible, 
> Parallels only has a visual install process, and VMware fusion even through 
> it was able to be installed and ran I was finding that no matter what I did 
> some how the key commands I was issuing to my virtual machine acted as OS 
> commands and took me out of th virtual machine. If you were in deed able to 
> run a virtual instance of Linux on a Mac and rely on a screen reader for 
> computer interaction I would be curious as to how you got it to work. 
> 
> I agree Voiceover does lose focus of the terminal windo pretty often but I do 
> not see much difference between issuing one command to interact with the 
> shell or to enter flat review. One thing I did like about Orca was that when 
> you issue the command in the console it begins reading from the top but just 
> as with any other screen reader once you stop the speech it just places your 
> cursor at the bottom of the output window.
> 
> I have not used speakup before but at some point I will have to find the 
> packages to get it on my Ubuntu box. I appreciate Orca for some things but it 
> is not enough as a stand alone tool in my opinion. It would be great for 
> someone to post some configerations of their Ubuntu box which uses Orca, 
> Speakup, and whatever tools they use to make their machine the most efficient 
> for the desktop, terminal, and with speech output. Thanks
> Bryan Duarte | software engineer
> 
> ASU Computer Science Ph.D Student
> IGERT Fellow
> Alliance for Person-centered Accessible Technology (APAcT)
> Center for Cognitive Ubiquitous Computing (CUbiC Lab)
> National Federation of the Blind of Arizona | Affiliate Board Member
> National Association of Blind Students | Board Member
> Arizona Association of Blind Students | President
> Phone: 480-652-3045
> 
>> On Mar 5, 2018, at 8:36 AM, Linux for blind general discussion 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Janina and all,
>> 
>> On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 11:21:47AM -0500, Linux for blind general discussion 
>> wrote:
 2. You said "After using a Mac for a few weeks at work I was very 
 disappointed. 
 Especialy the VoiceOver support in the terminal is not more then 
 rudimentary compared to the things you can do with a screenreader on a 
 linux system."
 
>>> This is my experience precisely with my Mac Airbook.
>>> 
>>> In fact, while traveling with only the Airbook, I would ssh from a
>>> VMware Linux session into my Mac to do Mac terminal tasks, because of
>>> the superior screen reader support.
>> 
>> I also did it that way and installed a VM with Debian in VMware Fusion 
>> to get my tasks, that needed to be done in a terminal, done on my Mac 
>> Book Air.
>> 
>>> As noted above, braille would viciate my statement. I'm speaking of TTS
>>> only interfacing.
>> 
>> Me too. Because I learned braille when I was 15 years old, tts is much 
>> more important to me than braille. I only use braille when programming 
>> or to format text.
>> 
>> VoiceOver might have a nicer voice then speakup, espeak or other linux 
>> screenreaders, but navigating the screen is much mor difficult. Also VO 
>> very ofthen looses focus, is overloaded with much output of the console, 
>> e.g., and I have not found any settings on my Mac to make those things 
>> better.
>> 
>> Ciao,
>> 
>> Schoepp
>> 
>> -- 
>> Christian Schoepplein -  - http://schoeppi.net
>> 
>> ___
>> Blinux-list mailing list
>> Blinux-list@redhat.com
>> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> 
> ___
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list


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Re: Screen reader advice for a Linux sysadmin

[Linux for blind general discussion]

In voiceovr configuration there are key and numpad commander settings.  Speech 
functions can be attached to them.  The key commanders can be
used with any keyboarrd, numpad commanders are best suited where there is a 
numpad.

On Mon, 5 Mar 2018, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:

> Linux for blind general discussion writes:
> >
> > Voiceover can be made to act exactly like speakup using the numpad keys.
> >
> On an Airbook? How?
>
> > On Thu, 1 Mar 2018, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
> >
> > > Oh, yes, one can do this with Voice Over, but it's so very, very
> > > cumbersome compared to using Speakup's numeric keypad screen review.
> > >
> > > I just don't have all day to fuss with VO. Just my experience.
> > >
> > > Janina
> > >
> > > Linux for blind general discussion writes:
> > > > -eric,
> > > >
> > > > I honestly do not have any special software or configerations to 
> > > > interact with the Unix console. I have noticed that each person who is 
> > > > having issues with the Mac terminal have in common. Remember Voiceover 
> > > > requires that you use the VoiceOver keys to navigate the VoiceOver 
> > > > cursor. It is similar to the flat review in Linux but uses different 
> > > > keys. You have to hold down the CTRL + CMD keys to move the cursor. In 
> > > > addition to these keys you have to make sure you are interacting with 
> > > > the terminal window. VoiceOver requires that you are "interacting" with 
> > > > windows for VoiceOver to read the contents of that window. To do this 
> > > > you press the Shift key + CTRL + CMD + the down arrow. In terms of the 
> > > > terminal window you would listen for "Shell" and perform the 
> > > > interaction command. From this point you would use the VoiceOver 
> > > > navigation commands to move around the stdout including the man pages.
> > > >
> > > > To interact with the man pages simply execute the man page you are 
> > > > interested in then use the above commands to read it. Once you have 
> > > > read the currently displayed page you would press the space bar to 
> > > > bring up the next section of the man page. You can tell if there is 
> > > > additional pages not being displayed because at the bottom there will 
> > > > be a : displayed letting you know there are more pages to show. To exit 
> > > > the man pages you would simply type the letter q. I typically will 
> > > > execute this command to have more control of the man docs and can 
> > > > review them later.
> > > > $ man grep >> grep.txt
> > > >
> > > > I am sure you understand what that is doing but in case someone does 
> > > > not it is basically redirecting the stdout from the man command to a 
> > > > file named grep.txt. I then will use vim or cat to read the 
> > > > documentation. Hope this helps
> > > > Bryan Duarte | software engineer
> > > >
> > > > ASU Computer Science Ph.D Student
> > > > IGERT Fellow
> > > > Alliance for Person-centered Accessible Technology (APAcT)
> > > > Center for Cognitive Ubiquitous Computing (CUbiC Lab)
> > > > National Federation of the Blind of Arizona | Affiliate Board Member
> > > > National Association of Blind Students | Board Member
> > > > Arizona Association of Blind Students | President
> > > > Phone: 480-652-3045
> > > >
> > > > > On Feb 28, 2018, at 5:03 PM, Linux for blind general discussion 
> > > > >  wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > -eric
> > > >
> > > > ___
> > > > Blinux-list mailing list
> > > > Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> > XB
> >
> > ___
> > Blinux-list mailing list
> > Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>

-- 
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Re: Screen reader advice for a Linux sysadmin

[Linux for blind general discussion]

I would be curious to hear how you were successful in using a virtual box to 
run any other operating system when using a screen reader to interact with your 
machine? I have tried VMware Fusion on my Mac, Virtualbox, and Parallels with 
absolutely no great success. Virtualbox is completely inaccessible, Parallels 
only has a visual install process, and VMware fusion even through it was able 
to be installed and ran I was finding that no matter what I did some how the 
key commands I was issuing to my virtual machine acted as OS commands and took 
me out of th virtual machine. If you were in deed able to run a virtual 
instance of Linux on a Mac and rely on a screen reader for computer interaction 
I would be curious as to how you got it to work. 

I agree Voiceover does lose focus of the terminal windo pretty often but I do 
not see much difference between issuing one command to interact with the shell 
or to enter flat review. One thing I did like about Orca was that when you 
issue the command in the console it begins reading from the top but just as 
with any other screen reader once you stop the speech it just places your 
cursor at the bottom of the output window.

I have not used speakup before but at some point I will have to find the 
packages to get it on my Ubuntu box. I appreciate Orca for some things but it 
is not enough as a stand alone tool in my opinion. It would be great for 
someone to post some configerations of their Ubuntu box which uses Orca, 
Speakup, and whatever tools they use to make their machine the most efficient 
for the desktop, terminal, and with speech output. Thanks
Bryan Duarte | software engineer

ASU Computer Science Ph.D Student
IGERT Fellow
Alliance for Person-centered Accessible Technology (APAcT)
Center for Cognitive Ubiquitous Computing (CUbiC Lab)
National Federation of the Blind of Arizona | Affiliate Board Member
National Association of Blind Students | Board Member
Arizona Association of Blind Students | President
Phone: 480-652-3045

> On Mar 5, 2018, at 8:36 AM, Linux for blind general discussion 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi Janina and all,
> 
> On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 11:21:47AM -0500, Linux for blind general discussion 
> wrote:
>>> 2. You said "After using a Mac for a few weeks at work I was very 
>>> disappointed. 
>>> Especialy the VoiceOver support in the terminal is not more then 
>>> rudimentary compared to the things you can do with a screenreader on a 
>>> linux system."
>>> 
>> This is my experience precisely with my Mac Airbook.
>> 
>> In fact, while traveling with only the Airbook, I would ssh from a
>> VMware Linux session into my Mac to do Mac terminal tasks, because of
>> the superior screen reader support.
> 
> I also did it that way and installed a VM with Debian in VMware Fusion 
> to get my tasks, that needed to be done in a terminal, done on my Mac 
> Book Air.
> 
>> As noted above, braille would viciate my statement. I'm speaking of TTS
>> only interfacing.
> 
> Me too. Because I learned braille when I was 15 years old, tts is much 
> more important to me than braille. I only use braille when programming 
> or to format text.
> 
> VoiceOver might have a nicer voice then speakup, espeak or other linux 
> screenreaders, but navigating the screen is much mor difficult. Also VO 
> very ofthen looses focus, is overloaded with much output of the console, 
> e.g., and I have not found any settings on my Mac to make those things 
> better.
> 
> Ciao,
> 
>  Schoepp
> 
> -- 
> Christian Schoepplein -  - http://schoeppi.net
> 
> ___
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list

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Re: Screen reader advice for a Linux sysadmin

[Linux for blind general discussion]

there is a option in voice over utilities

for using the numpad
if no one responds back let me know and I can turn on my macbook and 
give you exact instructions on where to go

On 3/5/2018 8:21 AM, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:

Linux for blind general discussion writes:

Voiceover can be made to act exactly like speakup using the numpad keys.


On an Airbook? How?


On Thu, 1 Mar 2018, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:


Oh, yes, one can do this with Voice Over, but it's so very, very
cumbersome compared to using Speakup's numeric keypad screen review.

I just don't have all day to fuss with VO. Just my experience.

Janina

Linux for blind general discussion writes:

-eric,

I honestly do not have any special software or configerations to interact with the Unix console. I 
have noticed that each person who is having issues with the Mac terminal have in common. Remember 
Voiceover requires that you use the VoiceOver keys to navigate the VoiceOver cursor. It is similar 
to the flat review in Linux but uses different keys. You have to hold down the CTRL + CMD keys to 
move the cursor. In addition to these keys you have to make sure you are interacting with the 
terminal window. VoiceOver requires that you are "interacting" with windows for VoiceOver 
to read the contents of that window. To do this you press the Shift key + CTRL + CMD + the down 
arrow. In terms of the terminal window you would listen for "Shell" and perform the 
interaction command. From this point you would use the VoiceOver navigation commands to move around 
the stdout including the man pages.

To interact with the man pages simply execute the man page you are interested 
in then use the above commands to read it. Once you have read the currently 
displayed page you would press the space bar to bring up the next section of 
the man page. You can tell if there is additional pages not being displayed 
because at the bottom there will be a : displayed letting you know there are 
more pages to show. To exit the man pages you would simply type the letter q. I 
typically will execute this command to have more control of the man docs and 
can review them later.
$ man grep >> grep.txt

I am sure you understand what that is doing but in case someone does not it is 
basically redirecting the stdout from the man command to a file named grep.txt. 
I then will use vim or cat to read the documentation. Hope this helps
Bryan Duarte | software engineer

ASU Computer Science Ph.D Student
IGERT Fellow
Alliance for Person-centered Accessible Technology (APAcT)
Center for Cognitive Ubiquitous Computing (CUbiC Lab)
National Federation of the Blind of Arizona | Affiliate Board Member
National Association of Blind Students | Board Member
Arizona Association of Blind Students | President
Phone: 480-652-3045


On Feb 28, 2018, at 5:03 PM, Linux for blind general discussion 
 wrote:

-eric

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Re: Screen reader advice for a Linux sysadmin

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Hi Janina and all,

On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 11:21:47AM -0500, Linux for blind general discussion 
wrote:
>> 2. You said "After using a Mac for a few weeks at work I was very 
>> disappointed. 
>> Especialy the VoiceOver support in the terminal is not more then 
>> rudimentary compared to the things you can do with a screenreader on a 
>> linux system."
>> 
>This is my experience precisely with my Mac Airbook.
>
>In fact, while traveling with only the Airbook, I would ssh from a
>VMware Linux session into my Mac to do Mac terminal tasks, because of
>the superior screen reader support.

I also did it that way and installed a VM with Debian in VMware Fusion 
to get my tasks, that needed to be done in a terminal, done on my Mac 
Book Air.

>As noted above, braille would viciate my statement. I'm speaking of TTS
>only interfacing.

Me too. Because I learned braille when I was 15 years old, tts is much 
more important to me than braille. I only use braille when programming 
or to format text.

VoiceOver might have a nicer voice then speakup, espeak or other linux 
screenreaders, but navigating the screen is much mor difficult. Also VO 
very ofthen looses focus, is overloaded with much output of the console, 
e.g., and I have not found any settings on my Mac to make those things 
better.

Ciao,

  Schoepp

-- 
Christian Schoepplein -  - http://schoeppi.net

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Re: Screen reader advice for a Linux sysadmin

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Linux for blind general discussion writes:
> 
> Voiceover can be made to act exactly like speakup using the numpad keys.
> 
On an Airbook? How?

> On Thu, 1 Mar 2018, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
> 
> > Oh, yes, one can do this with Voice Over, but it's so very, very
> > cumbersome compared to using Speakup's numeric keypad screen review.
> >
> > I just don't have all day to fuss with VO. Just my experience.
> >
> > Janina
> >
> > Linux for blind general discussion writes:
> > > -eric,
> > >
> > > I honestly do not have any special software or configerations to interact 
> > > with the Unix console. I have noticed that each person who is having 
> > > issues with the Mac terminal have in common. Remember Voiceover requires 
> > > that you use the VoiceOver keys to navigate the VoiceOver cursor. It is 
> > > similar to the flat review in Linux but uses different keys. You have to 
> > > hold down the CTRL + CMD keys to move the cursor. In addition to these 
> > > keys you have to make sure you are interacting with the terminal window. 
> > > VoiceOver requires that you are "interacting" with windows for VoiceOver 
> > > to read the contents of that window. To do this you press the Shift key + 
> > > CTRL + CMD + the down arrow. In terms of the terminal window you would 
> > > listen for "Shell" and perform the interaction command. From this point 
> > > you would use the VoiceOver navigation commands to move around the stdout 
> > > including the man pages.
> > >
> > > To interact with the man pages simply execute the man page you are 
> > > interested in then use the above commands to read it. Once you have read 
> > > the currently displayed page you would press the space bar to bring up 
> > > the next section of the man page. You can tell if there is additional 
> > > pages not being displayed because at the bottom there will be a : 
> > > displayed letting you know there are more pages to show. To exit the man 
> > > pages you would simply type the letter q. I typically will execute this 
> > > command to have more control of the man docs and can review them later.
> > > $ man grep >> grep.txt
> > >
> > > I am sure you understand what that is doing but in case someone does not 
> > > it is basically redirecting the stdout from the man command to a file 
> > > named grep.txt. I then will use vim or cat to read the documentation. 
> > > Hope this helps
> > > Bryan Duarte | software engineer
> > >
> > > ASU Computer Science Ph.D Student
> > > IGERT Fellow
> > > Alliance for Person-centered Accessible Technology (APAcT)
> > > Center for Cognitive Ubiquitous Computing (CUbiC Lab)
> > > National Federation of the Blind of Arizona | Affiliate Board Member
> > > National Association of Blind Students | Board Member
> > > Arizona Association of Blind Students | President
> > > Phone: 480-652-3045
> > >
> > > > On Feb 28, 2018, at 5:03 PM, Linux for blind general discussion 
> > > >  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > -eric
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Blinux-list mailing list
> > > Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> >
> >
> 
> -- 
> XB
> 
> ___
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-- 

Janina Sajka

Linux Foundation Fellow
Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup:   http://a11y.org

The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
Chair, Accessible Platform Architectureshttp://www.w3.org/wai/apa

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Re: Screen reader advice for a Linux sysadmin

[Linux for blind general discussion]

hello fellow old curmudgeon. :)

I have been wanting to port BrlTTY over to OS X, but it's being a pain in the 
butt. I am not a coder, so my knowledge is a bit limited there. Also, it seems 
that no one has considered porting this most useful of console tools to 
macports.

btw, OS X is not the only OS where Console support is needed. Interestingly 
enough, you can't get any accessibility to work anywhere in OpenBSD. I have 
tried, several times over the years to convince the powers that be (Theo De 
Raadt and company) that accessibility would be a very good addition to the OS. 
I have been rebuffed by Theo personally. Perhaps it time I pay him a visit at 
the next black hat convention in Las Vegas and impress upon him in person the 
kind of people who would benefit from an ultra secure OS that operates strictly 
from command line. perhaps he might listen if confronted in person (although I 
doubt it).

Anyway, having access to the command line with the ease that BrlTTY, Speakup, 
Emacsspeak and some others offer would definitely be a boon for many of us. And 
yes, there are a great many systems admins I know personally who prefer to work 
in a terminal (even the sighted ones!).

-eric

On Mar 2, 2018, at 9:19 AM, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:

> Bryan:
> 
> I want to agree. I would expect that anything one reads here is
> someone's opinion. I believe that's a given especially in a nonfactual
> discussion where terms like "best" or "works well" are tossed about.
> 
> Some of us older curmudgeons on the list, perhaps especially yours
> truly, may jump in with some stridancy from time to time, especially
> when people new to accessibility try to use the Linux terminal with
> graphical accessibility tools with narry a reference to the still
> maintained and actively developed console accessibility tools. That's a
> disconnect in my mind, very possibly one that's cultural for younger
> generations or for newly blinded adults.
> 
> Point of fact is that serious engineers use the terminall all the time.
> That's true on Linux, but it's also true on Apple and Microsoft
> products. Apple doesn't provide the wealth of tooling available from its
> terminal for its customer base. Those tools are there primarily because
> Apple developers and engineers find them invaluable. The same can be
> said for Microsoft. I'm speaking of the majority of engineers who aren't
> needing assistive technology themselves.
> 
> For those of us who do require AT support I think it important to
> provide an accurate and comprehensive picture. AT on the Linux console
> continues to be actively developed. We have the grand old trio, Speakup,
> Brltty, and Emacspeak that remain highly effective and viable. The value
> of the native Linux console environment is only further demonstrated by
> the emergence of new screen reader AT, like Fenrir, that may yet take
> their place with the old stalwarts.
> 
> So, if VO in the Apple terminal floats your boat, I certainly wouldn't
> gainsay your satisfaction with that solution. And, I'm very glad that
> the powerhouse Windows screen readers are finally upgrading their
> terminal support now that Linux on Windows is a meaningful and
> mainstream Microsoft engineering addition. It's also great to see the
> terminal reemerge as a respectable environment in people's eyes. There
> was a long time when those of us who never left the terminal actually
> felt like we were discounted over that preference.
> 
> Janina
> 
> 
> Linux for blind general discussion writes:
>> I agree VoiceOver does require a lot to interact with navigation commands 
>> but the speech output is amazing. Also I only ever use a laptop so I do not 
>> use a num pad with my machine. Another thing I will add in all this is that 
>> we all will be a bit partial or bias toward the OS, screen reader or tools 
>> we use so as long as we keep in mind everything we post is meant to share 
>> our personal opinions it is all useful information. I like to hear how Linux 
>> users do what they do so I hope my perspective on Mac is equally as useful 
>> to someone else. 
>> Bryan Duarte | software engineer
>> 
>> ASU Computer Science Ph.D Student
>> IGERT Fellow
>> Alliance for Person-centered Accessible Technology (APAcT)
>> Center for Cognitive Ubiquitous Computing (CUbiC Lab)
>> National Federation of the Blind of Arizona | Affiliate Board Member
>> National Association of Blind Students | Board Member
>> Arizona Association of Blind Students | President
>> Phone: 480-652-3045
>> 
>>> On Mar 1, 2018, at 3:36 PM, Linux for blind general discussion 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Oh, yes, one can do this with Voice Over, but it's so very, very
>>> cumbersome compared to using Speakup's numeric keypad screen review.
>>> 
>>> I just don't have all day to fuss with VO. Just my experience.
>>> 
>>> Janina
>>> 
>>> Linux for blind general discussion writes:
 -eric,
 
 I honestly do not have any special software 

Re: Screen reader advice for a Linux sysadmin

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Voiceover can be made to act exactly like speakup using the numpad keys.

On Thu, 1 Mar 2018, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:

> Oh, yes, one can do this with Voice Over, but it's so very, very
> cumbersome compared to using Speakup's numeric keypad screen review.
>
> I just don't have all day to fuss with VO. Just my experience.
>
> Janina
>
> Linux for blind general discussion writes:
> > -eric,
> >
> > I honestly do not have any special software or configerations to interact 
> > with the Unix console. I have noticed that each person who is having issues 
> > with the Mac terminal have in common. Remember Voiceover requires that you 
> > use the VoiceOver keys to navigate the VoiceOver cursor. It is similar to 
> > the flat review in Linux but uses different keys. You have to hold down the 
> > CTRL + CMD keys to move the cursor. In addition to these keys you have to 
> > make sure you are interacting with the terminal window. VoiceOver requires 
> > that you are "interacting" with windows for VoiceOver to read the contents 
> > of that window. To do this you press the Shift key + CTRL + CMD + the down 
> > arrow. In terms of the terminal window you would listen for "Shell" and 
> > perform the interaction command. From this point you would use the 
> > VoiceOver navigation commands to move around the stdout including the man 
> > pages.
> >
> > To interact with the man pages simply execute the man page you are 
> > interested in then use the above commands to read it. Once you have read 
> > the currently displayed page you would press the space bar to bring up the 
> > next section of the man page. You can tell if there is additional pages not 
> > being displayed because at the bottom there will be a : displayed letting 
> > you know there are more pages to show. To exit the man pages you would 
> > simply type the letter q. I typically will execute this command to have 
> > more control of the man docs and can review them later.
> > $ man grep >> grep.txt
> >
> > I am sure you understand what that is doing but in case someone does not it 
> > is basically redirecting the stdout from the man command to a file named 
> > grep.txt. I then will use vim or cat to read the documentation. Hope this 
> > helps
> > Bryan Duarte | software engineer
> >
> > ASU Computer Science Ph.D Student
> > IGERT Fellow
> > Alliance for Person-centered Accessible Technology (APAcT)
> > Center for Cognitive Ubiquitous Computing (CUbiC Lab)
> > National Federation of the Blind of Arizona | Affiliate Board Member
> > National Association of Blind Students | Board Member
> > Arizona Association of Blind Students | President
> > Phone: 480-652-3045
> >
> > > On Feb 28, 2018, at 5:03 PM, Linux for blind general discussion 
> > >  wrote:
> > >
> > > -eric
> >
> > ___
> > Blinux-list mailing list
> > Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>

-- 
XB

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Re: Screen reader advice for a Linux sysadmin

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Bryan:

I want to agree. I would expect that anything one reads here is
someone's opinion. I believe that's a given especially in a nonfactual
discussion where terms like "best" or "works well" are tossed about.

Some of us older curmudgeons on the list, perhaps especially yours
truly, may jump in with some stridancy from time to time, especially
when people new to accessibility try to use the Linux terminal with
graphical accessibility tools with narry a reference to the still
maintained and actively developed console accessibility tools. That's a
disconnect in my mind, very possibly one that's cultural for younger
generations or for newly blinded adults.

Point of fact is that serious engineers use the terminall all the time.
That's true on Linux, but it's also true on Apple and Microsoft
products. Apple doesn't provide the wealth of tooling available from its
terminal for its customer base. Those tools are there primarily because
Apple developers and engineers find them invaluable. The same can be
said for Microsoft. I'm speaking of the majority of engineers who aren't
needing assistive technology themselves.

For those of us who do require AT support I think it important to
provide an accurate and comprehensive picture. AT on the Linux console
continues to be actively developed. We have the grand old trio, Speakup,
Brltty, and Emacspeak that remain highly effective and viable. The value
of the native Linux console environment is only further demonstrated by
the emergence of new screen reader AT, like Fenrir, that may yet take
their place with the old stalwarts.

So, if VO in the Apple terminal floats your boat, I certainly wouldn't
gainsay your satisfaction with that solution. And, I'm very glad that
the powerhouse Windows screen readers are finally upgrading their
terminal support now that Linux on Windows is a meaningful and
mainstream Microsoft engineering addition. It's also great to see the
terminal reemerge as a respectable environment in people's eyes. There
was a long time when those of us who never left the terminal actually
felt like we were discounted over that preference.

Janina


Linux for blind general discussion writes:
> I agree VoiceOver does require a lot to interact with navigation commands but 
> the speech output is amazing. Also I only ever use a laptop so I do not use a 
> num pad with my machine. Another thing I will add in all this is that we all 
> will be a bit partial or bias toward the OS, screen reader or tools we use so 
> as long as we keep in mind everything we post is meant to share our personal 
> opinions it is all useful information. I like to hear how Linux users do what 
> they do so I hope my perspective on Mac is equally as useful to someone else. 
> Bryan Duarte | software engineer
> 
> ASU Computer Science Ph.D Student
> IGERT Fellow
> Alliance for Person-centered Accessible Technology (APAcT)
> Center for Cognitive Ubiquitous Computing (CUbiC Lab)
> National Federation of the Blind of Arizona | Affiliate Board Member
> National Association of Blind Students | Board Member
> Arizona Association of Blind Students | President
> Phone: 480-652-3045
> 
> > On Mar 1, 2018, at 3:36 PM, Linux for blind general discussion 
> >  wrote:
> > 
> > Oh, yes, one can do this with Voice Over, but it's so very, very
> > cumbersome compared to using Speakup's numeric keypad screen review.
> > 
> > I just don't have all day to fuss with VO. Just my experience.
> > 
> > Janina
> > 
> > Linux for blind general discussion writes:
> >> -eric,
> >> 
> >> I honestly do not have any special software or configerations to interact 
> >> with the Unix console. I have noticed that each person who is having 
> >> issues with the Mac terminal have in common. Remember Voiceover requires 
> >> that you use the VoiceOver keys to navigate the VoiceOver cursor. It is 
> >> similar to the flat review in Linux but uses different keys. You have to 
> >> hold down the CTRL + CMD keys to move the cursor. In addition to these 
> >> keys you have to make sure you are interacting with the terminal window. 
> >> VoiceOver requires that you are "interacting" with windows for VoiceOver 
> >> to read the contents of that window. To do this you press the Shift key + 
> >> CTRL + CMD + the down arrow. In terms of the terminal window you would 
> >> listen for "Shell" and perform the interaction command. From this point 
> >> you would use the VoiceOver navigation commands to move around the stdout 
> >> including the man pages. 
> >> 
> >> To interact with the man pages simply execute the man page you are 
> >> interested in then use the above commands to read it. Once you have read 
> >> the currently displayed page you would press the space bar to bring up the 
> >> next section of the man page. You can tell if there is additional pages 
> >> not being displayed because at the bottom there will be a : displayed 
> >> letting you know there are more pages to show. To exit the man 

Re: Screen reader advice for a Linux sysadmin

[Linux for blind general discussion]

I agree VoiceOver does require a lot to interact with navigation commands but 
the speech output is amazing. Also I only ever use a laptop so I do not use a 
num pad with my machine. Another thing I will add in all this is that we all 
will be a bit partial or bias toward the OS, screen reader or tools we use so 
as long as we keep in mind everything we post is meant to share our personal 
opinions it is all useful information. I like to hear how Linux users do what 
they do so I hope my perspective on Mac is equally as useful to someone else. 
Bryan Duarte | software engineer

ASU Computer Science Ph.D Student
IGERT Fellow
Alliance for Person-centered Accessible Technology (APAcT)
Center for Cognitive Ubiquitous Computing (CUbiC Lab)
National Federation of the Blind of Arizona | Affiliate Board Member
National Association of Blind Students | Board Member
Arizona Association of Blind Students | President
Phone: 480-652-3045

> On Mar 1, 2018, at 3:36 PM, Linux for blind general discussion 
>  wrote:
> 
> Oh, yes, one can do this with Voice Over, but it's so very, very
> cumbersome compared to using Speakup's numeric keypad screen review.
> 
> I just don't have all day to fuss with VO. Just my experience.
> 
> Janina
> 
> Linux for blind general discussion writes:
>> -eric,
>> 
>> I honestly do not have any special software or configerations to interact 
>> with the Unix console. I have noticed that each person who is having issues 
>> with the Mac terminal have in common. Remember Voiceover requires that you 
>> use the VoiceOver keys to navigate the VoiceOver cursor. It is similar to 
>> the flat review in Linux but uses different keys. You have to hold down the 
>> CTRL + CMD keys to move the cursor. In addition to these keys you have to 
>> make sure you are interacting with the terminal window. VoiceOver requires 
>> that you are "interacting" with windows for VoiceOver to read the contents 
>> of that window. To do this you press the Shift key + CTRL + CMD + the down 
>> arrow. In terms of the terminal window you would listen for "Shell" and 
>> perform the interaction command. From this point you would use the VoiceOver 
>> navigation commands to move around the stdout including the man pages. 
>> 
>> To interact with the man pages simply execute the man page you are 
>> interested in then use the above commands to read it. Once you have read the 
>> currently displayed page you would press the space bar to bring up the next 
>> section of the man page. You can tell if there is additional pages not being 
>> displayed because at the bottom there will be a : displayed letting you know 
>> there are more pages to show. To exit the man pages you would simply type 
>> the letter q. I typically will execute this command to have more control of 
>> the man docs and can review them later.
>> $ man grep >> grep.txt
>> 
>> I am sure you understand what that is doing but in case someone does not it 
>> is basically redirecting the stdout from the man command to a file named 
>> grep.txt. I then will use vim or cat to read the documentation. Hope this 
>> helps
>> Bryan Duarte | software engineer
>> 
>> ASU Computer Science Ph.D Student
>> IGERT Fellow
>> Alliance for Person-centered Accessible Technology (APAcT)
>> Center for Cognitive Ubiquitous Computing (CUbiC Lab)
>> National Federation of the Blind of Arizona | Affiliate Board Member
>> National Association of Blind Students | Board Member
>> Arizona Association of Blind Students | President
>> Phone: 480-652-3045
>> 
>>> On Feb 28, 2018, at 5:03 PM, Linux for blind general discussion 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> -eric
>> 
>> ___
>> Blinux-list mailing list
>> Blinux-list@redhat.com
>> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> 
> -- 
> 
> Janina Sajka
> 
> Linux Foundation Fellow
> Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup: http://a11y.org
> 
> The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
> Chair, Accessible Platform Architectures  http://www.w3.org/wai/apa
> 
> ___
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list

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Re: Screen reader advice for a Linux sysadmin

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Oh, yes, one can do this with Voice Over, but it's so very, very
cumbersome compared to using Speakup's numeric keypad screen review.

I just don't have all day to fuss with VO. Just my experience.

Janina

Linux for blind general discussion writes:
> -eric,
> 
> I honestly do not have any special software or configerations to interact 
> with the Unix console. I have noticed that each person who is having issues 
> with the Mac terminal have in common. Remember Voiceover requires that you 
> use the VoiceOver keys to navigate the VoiceOver cursor. It is similar to the 
> flat review in Linux but uses different keys. You have to hold down the CTRL 
> + CMD keys to move the cursor. In addition to these keys you have to make 
> sure you are interacting with the terminal window. VoiceOver requires that 
> you are "interacting" with windows for VoiceOver to read the contents of that 
> window. To do this you press the Shift key + CTRL + CMD + the down arrow. In 
> terms of the terminal window you would listen for "Shell" and perform the 
> interaction command. From this point you would use the VoiceOver navigation 
> commands to move around the stdout including the man pages. 
> 
> To interact with the man pages simply execute the man page you are interested 
> in then use the above commands to read it. Once you have read the currently 
> displayed page you would press the space bar to bring up the next section of 
> the man page. You can tell if there is additional pages not being displayed 
> because at the bottom there will be a : displayed letting you know there are 
> more pages to show. To exit the man pages you would simply type the letter q. 
> I typically will execute this command to have more control of the man docs 
> and can review them later.
> $ man grep >> grep.txt
> 
> I am sure you understand what that is doing but in case someone does not it 
> is basically redirecting the stdout from the man command to a file named 
> grep.txt. I then will use vim or cat to read the documentation. Hope this 
> helps
> Bryan Duarte | software engineer
> 
> ASU Computer Science Ph.D Student
> IGERT Fellow
> Alliance for Person-centered Accessible Technology (APAcT)
> Center for Cognitive Ubiquitous Computing (CUbiC Lab)
> National Federation of the Blind of Arizona | Affiliate Board Member
> National Association of Blind Students | Board Member
> Arizona Association of Blind Students | President
> Phone: 480-652-3045
> 
> > On Feb 28, 2018, at 5:03 PM, Linux for blind general discussion 
> >  wrote:
> > 
> > -eric
> 
> ___
> Blinux-list mailing list
> Blinux-list@redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list

-- 

Janina Sajka

Linux Foundation Fellow
Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup:   http://a11y.org

The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
Chair, Accessible Platform Architectureshttp://www.w3.org/wai/apa

___
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Re: Screen reader advice for a Linux sysadmin

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Here are the major adjustments I fund useful for using voiceover in terminal on 
a mac as a ssh base:

1. in vo preferences have all cursors follow each other, including the mouse 
cursor.

2. when in terminal go into text interaction mode.

3. Use the standard mac navigation and vo speech command key combinations to 
work anywhere on the visible screen.

For example, vo + home goes to the top of the screen, vo + end to the bottom.

Vo plus s for the current sentence, l for line and p for paragraph.  Vo +a read 
the screen starting with cursor position.

Many of these and more an be found by invoking the vo help menu with vo + h.

4. use vo key commanders to make custom navigation and speech commands with 
fewer key combinations and strokes.  This is done in vo
preferences.

Key commanders are used with an option key combined with a character, including 
punctuation, and including those on the numpad if you have
one; of one's choice whichh are less complex then the default key combinations. 
Many of the built in key commander default choices determine
how speech works, as well as navigation and many default os functions.

They can also be attached to apple scripts.

An example of the latter, instead of having seperate commands to go to the top 
of the screen, move down one line to avoid the title line and
start to read the entire screen.  These can be made one key commander which 
evokes an apple script that performs the above sequence of
navigation and speech commands.

On Wed, 28 Feb 2018, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:

> On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 08:31:23AM -0500, Linux for blind general discussion 
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >I concur with using a mac as a ssh base.  The bsd based terminal can
> >be made much more accessable using the mac's native voiceover with a
> >few minor system configuration changes.
>
> Which changes are necessary to make the textbased terminal work better
> with VoiceOver? With the default settings VO support for the terminal is
> not really good IMHO and everything I tried didn't it make better :-(.
>
> I'd really like to use my Mac to administrate my Linux servers at work
> via ssh, write scripts or edit config files with vi on the servers,
> e.g., but all those things are not possible because VO looses the focus
> while writing commands in the shell or editing files wit vi, keeps
> hanging when much output is provided by a system and so on.
>
> Every hint which makes things better in the terminal is highly wellcome
> :-).
>
> Cheers and thanks,
>
>   Schoepp
>
>

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Re: Screen reader advice for a Linux sysadmin

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Tim here.  Eric wrote about issues with man formatting. There are a
couple options:

At least with GNU man (the default on most Linux systems, but not the
BSDs), you can have `man` open your page in your $BROWSER.  So you
can do something like

  $ export BROWSER=`which lynx`
  $ man -H strftime

to show the man page for `strftime` in lynx.  Works fine with other
browsers like Firefox as well as long as $BROWSER is set correctly.
If you want this behavior ALL the time, you can issue

  export MANOPT=-H

or

  export MANOPT="-Hlynx"

in your .bashrc (or other shell configuration file).

Alternatively, you can pipe the output of `man` to `col -b` to strip
out the formatting and then pipe that to your $PAGER

  $ man strftime | col -b | less

This does the stripping you describe wanting to use grep/sed to do,
but saves you the trouble of coming up with an appropriate regular
expression.  This works both on Linux and the BSDs (and not just
with `man` but with any output that uses the ^H to backspace and
overstrike, whether for bold or underline)

Hope this helps,

-tim



On February 28, 2018, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
> that does help.
> However, given how the man pages are formatted, there are some
> issues dealing with the highlighted text inside those manages, as
> well as underlined links. What would appear, visually, to be a
> single word highlighted and in all caps turns into individual
> capitalized letters separated by spaces. the underlined text that
> is highlighted and underlined is even more problematic. I guess I
> am going to have to read on grep a bit in order to filter those out.
> 
> -eric
> 
> On Feb 28, 2018, at 5:23 PM, Linux for blind general discussion
> wrote:
> 
> > -eric,
> > 
> > I honestly do not have any special software or configerations to
> > interact with the Unix console. I have noticed that each person
> > who is having issues with the Mac terminal have in common.
> > Remember Voiceover requires that you use the VoiceOver keys to
> > navigate the VoiceOver cursor. It is similar to the flat review
> > in Linux but uses different keys. You have to hold down the CTRL
> > + CMD keys to move the cursor. In addition to these keys you have
> > to make sure you are interacting with the terminal window.
> > VoiceOver requires that you are "interacting" with windows for
> > VoiceOver to read the contents of that window. To do this you
> > press the Shift key + CTRL + CMD + the down arrow. In terms of
> > the terminal window you would listen for "Shell" and perform the
> > interaction command. From this point you would use the VoiceOver
> > navigation commands to move around the stdout including the man
> > pages. 
> > 
> > To interact with the man pages simply execute the man page you
> > are interested in then use the above commands to read it. Once
> > you have read the currently displayed page you would press the
> > space bar to bring up the next section of the man page. You can
> > tell if there is additional pages not being displayed because at
> > the bottom there will be a : displayed letting you know there are
> > more pages to show. To exit the man pages you would simply type
> > the letter q. I typically will execute this command to have more
> > control of the man docs and can review them later. $ man grep >>
> > grep.txt
> > 
> > I am sure you understand what that is doing but in case someone
> > does not it is basically redirecting the stdout from the man
> > command to a file named grep.txt. I then will use vim or cat to
> > read the documentation. Hope this helps Bryan Duarte | software
> > engineer
> > 
> > ASU Computer Science Ph.D Student
> > IGERT Fellow
> > Alliance for Person-centered Accessible Technology (APAcT)
> > Center for Cognitive Ubiquitous Computing (CUbiC Lab)
> > National Federation of the Blind of Arizona | Affiliate Board
> > Member National Association of Blind Students | Board Member
> > Arizona Association of Blind Students | President
> > Phone: 480-652-3045
> >   
> >> On Feb 28, 2018, at 5:03 PM, Linux for blind general discussion
> >>  wrote:
> >> 
> >> -eric  
> > 
> > ___
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> 
> 
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Re: Screen reader advice for a Linux sysadmin

[Linux for blind general discussion]

I have this same problem. My solution is to use wrapper scripts
to format commands and place their output into
text editor buffers.

For example, my $HOME/bin/myman command contains this:

man $1 | col -b > /tmp/myman$$
vi /tmp/myman$$ 
rm /tmp/myman$$


Another command I use a lot is my $HOME/bin/vicmd

This command just makes it easy to create new commands. It contains this:

export last=`pwd`
cd $HOME/bin
vi $1
chmod 700 $1


The first line creates an environment variable  of
the last current directory.
That's useful for accessing files  withsaved script text in for  example
a mail subdirectory.  ThenI edit the new command named on the
command line, make sure it  is executable,   and exit.

For example, to change the vicmd script I would enter:
vicmd vicmd


One of the more useful of these is my $HOME/bin/vls  command, which 
contains:

ls $* | sed "s/$/  /" > /tmp/vls$$
vi /tmp/vls$$
rm /tmp/vls$$


And one of  the most useful options for vls or ls is the
-t option. This lists the most  recently edited or changed or created files 
first.

Well, that's enough blathering for now.

Hope this helps.

Rudy

On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 06:03:41PM -0700, Linux for blind general discussion 
wrote:
> that does help.
> However, given how the man pages are formatted, there are some issues dealing 
> with the highlighted text inside those manages, as well as underlined links. 
> What would appear, visually, to be a single word highlighted and in all caps 
> turns into individual capitalized letters separated by spaces. the underlined 
> text that is highlighted and underlined is even more problematic. I guess I 
> am going to have to read on grep a bit in order to filter those out.
> 
> -eric
> 
> On Feb 28, 2018, at 5:23 PM, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
> 
> > -eric,
> > 
> > I honestly do not have any special software or configerations to interact 
> > with the Unix console. I have noticed that each person who is having issues 
> > with the Mac terminal have in common. Remember Voiceover requires that you 
> > use the VoiceOver keys to navigate the VoiceOver cursor. It is similar to 
> > the flat review in Linux but uses different keys. You have to hold down the 
> > CTRL + CMD keys to move the cursor. In addition to these keys you have to 
> > make sure you are interacting with the terminal window. VoiceOver requires 
> > that you are "interacting" with windows for VoiceOver to read the contents 
> > of that window. To do this you press the Shift key + CTRL + CMD + the down 
> > arrow. In terms of the terminal window you would listen for "Shell" and 
> > perform the interaction command. From this point you would use the 
> > VoiceOver navigation commands to move around the stdout including the man 
> > pages. 
> > 
> > To interact with the man pages simply execute the man page you are 
> > interested in then use the above commands to read it. Once you have read 
> > the currently displayed page you would press the space bar to bring up the 
> > next section of the man page. You can tell if there is additional pages not 
> > being displayed because at the bottom there will be a : displayed letting 
> > you know there are more pages to show. To exit the man pages you would 
> > simply type the letter q. I typically will execute this command to have 
> > more control of the man docs and can review them later.
> > $ man grep >> grep.txt
> > 
> > I am sure you understand what that is doing but in case someone does not it 
> > is basically redirecting the stdout from the man command to a file named 
> > grep.txt. I then will use vim or cat to read the documentation. Hope this 
> > helps
> > Bryan Duarte | software engineer
> > 
> > ASU Computer Science Ph.D Student
> > IGERT Fellow
> > Alliance for Person-centered Accessible Technology (APAcT)
> > Center for Cognitive Ubiquitous Computing (CUbiC Lab)
> > National Federation of the Blind of Arizona | Affiliate Board Member
> > National Association of Blind Students | Board Member
> > Arizona Association of Blind Students | President
> > Phone: 480-652-3045
> > 
> >> On Feb 28, 2018, at 5:03 PM, Linux for blind general discussion 
> >>  wrote:
> >> 
> >> -eric
> > 
> > ___
> > Blinux-list mailing list
> > Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> 
> 
> ___
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Re: Screen reader advice for a Linux sysadmin

[Linux for blind general discussion]

that does help.
However, given how the man pages are formatted, there are some issues dealing 
with the highlighted text inside those manages, as well as underlined links. 
What would appear, visually, to be a single word highlighted and in all caps 
turns into individual capitalized letters separated by spaces. the underlined 
text that is highlighted and underlined is even more problematic. I guess I am 
going to have to read on grep a bit in order to filter those out.

-eric

On Feb 28, 2018, at 5:23 PM, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:

> -eric,
> 
> I honestly do not have any special software or configerations to interact 
> with the Unix console. I have noticed that each person who is having issues 
> with the Mac terminal have in common. Remember Voiceover requires that you 
> use the VoiceOver keys to navigate the VoiceOver cursor. It is similar to the 
> flat review in Linux but uses different keys. You have to hold down the CTRL 
> + CMD keys to move the cursor. In addition to these keys you have to make 
> sure you are interacting with the terminal window. VoiceOver requires that 
> you are "interacting" with windows for VoiceOver to read the contents of that 
> window. To do this you press the Shift key + CTRL + CMD + the down arrow. In 
> terms of the terminal window you would listen for "Shell" and perform the 
> interaction command. From this point you would use the VoiceOver navigation 
> commands to move around the stdout including the man pages. 
> 
> To interact with the man pages simply execute the man page you are interested 
> in then use the above commands to read it. Once you have read the currently 
> displayed page you would press the space bar to bring up the next section of 
> the man page. You can tell if there is additional pages not being displayed 
> because at the bottom there will be a : displayed letting you know there are 
> more pages to show. To exit the man pages you would simply type the letter q. 
> I typically will execute this command to have more control of the man docs 
> and can review them later.
> $ man grep >> grep.txt
> 
> I am sure you understand what that is doing but in case someone does not it 
> is basically redirecting the stdout from the man command to a file named 
> grep.txt. I then will use vim or cat to read the documentation. Hope this 
> helps
> Bryan Duarte | software engineer
> 
> ASU Computer Science Ph.D Student
> IGERT Fellow
> Alliance for Person-centered Accessible Technology (APAcT)
> Center for Cognitive Ubiquitous Computing (CUbiC Lab)
> National Federation of the Blind of Arizona | Affiliate Board Member
> National Association of Blind Students | Board Member
> Arizona Association of Blind Students | President
> Phone: 480-652-3045
> 
>> On Feb 28, 2018, at 5:03 PM, Linux for blind general discussion 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> -eric
> 
> ___
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Re: Screen reader advice for a Linux sysadmin

[Linux for blind general discussion]

yes with quick nav on you can use the right and down arrows together to enter 
interaction mode but I do not use quick nav because it changes the way commands 
are issued and it bothers me to have to turn it on and off for different 
scenarios
Bryan Duarte | software engineer

ASU Computer Science Ph.D Student
IGERT Fellow
Alliance for Person-centered Accessible Technology (APAcT)
Center for Cognitive Ubiquitous Computing (CUbiC Lab)
National Federation of the Blind of Arizona | Affiliate Board Member
National Association of Blind Students | Board Member
Arizona Association of Blind Students | President
Phone: 480-652-3045

> On Feb 28, 2018, at 5:31 PM, Linux for blind general discussion 
>  wrote:
> 
> I think you can switch a Mac keyboard so you only press 2 kees instead of 3? 
> But since I only have Linux here, well, I hope thats an option
> Chime
> 
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Re: Screen reader advice for a Linux sysadmin

[Linux for blind general discussion]

I think you can switch a Mac keyboard so you only press 2 kees instead of 3? But 
since I only have Linux here, well, I hope thats an option

Chime

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Re: Screen reader advice for a Linux sysadmin

[Linux for blind general discussion]

-eric,

I honestly do not have any special software or configerations to interact with 
the Unix console. I have noticed that each person who is having issues with the 
Mac terminal have in common. Remember Voiceover requires that you use the 
VoiceOver keys to navigate the VoiceOver cursor. It is similar to the flat 
review in Linux but uses different keys. You have to hold down the CTRL + CMD 
keys to move the cursor. In addition to these keys you have to make sure you 
are interacting with the terminal window. VoiceOver requires that you are 
"interacting" with windows for VoiceOver to read the contents of that window. 
To do this you press the Shift key + CTRL + CMD + the down arrow. In terms of 
the terminal window you would listen for "Shell" and perform the interaction 
command. From this point you would use the VoiceOver navigation commands to 
move around the stdout including the man pages. 

To interact with the man pages simply execute the man page you are interested 
in then use the above commands to read it. Once you have read the currently 
displayed page you would press the space bar to bring up the next section of 
the man page. You can tell if there is additional pages not being displayed 
because at the bottom there will be a : displayed letting you know there are 
more pages to show. To exit the man pages you would simply type the letter q. I 
typically will execute this command to have more control of the man docs and 
can review them later.
$ man grep >> grep.txt

I am sure you understand what that is doing but in case someone does not it is 
basically redirecting the stdout from the man command to a file named grep.txt. 
I then will use vim or cat to read the documentation. Hope this helps
Bryan Duarte | software engineer

ASU Computer Science Ph.D Student
IGERT Fellow
Alliance for Person-centered Accessible Technology (APAcT)
Center for Cognitive Ubiquitous Computing (CUbiC Lab)
National Federation of the Blind of Arizona | Affiliate Board Member
National Association of Blind Students | Board Member
Arizona Association of Blind Students | President
Phone: 480-652-3045

> On Feb 28, 2018, at 5:03 PM, Linux for blind general discussion 
>  wrote:
> 
> -eric

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Re: Screen reader advice for a Linux sysadmin

[Linux for blind general discussion]

I have issues inside the terminal, especially with reading man pages. what 
configurations do you suggest that would help?

Totally blind mac user here.

-eric

On Feb 28, 2018, at 6:31 AM, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:

> 
> 
> I concur with using a mac as a ssh base.  The bsd based terminal can be made 
> much more accessable using the mac's native voiceover with a few
> minor system configuration changes.
> 
> One then has a good screen reader for any text based shh session or using 
> ports of text applications in the mac as well as gui access as
> needed.
> 
> On Tue, 27 Feb 2018, Linux for blind
> general discussion wrote:
> 
>> You are very welcome Kathy. I understand I may have a bias towards Mac since 
>> I use it predominately but I also advocate for individuals using what ever 
>> tool can allow them to get the job done. For me I use a Mac for the before 
>> mentioned reasons and because when I need to access Linux I can do so 
>> remotely. As a software engineer who relies on a screen reader I choose the 
>> machine which allows me to do what I need to with a very high quality speech 
>> synthesizer.
>> 
>> Someone on this list did say there might be an update for Orca to make it 
>> work better with Ubuntu 16.04 but I have not had time to dedicate to the 
>> installation of that update.
>> 
>> 
>> Bryan Duarte | software engineer
>> 
>> ASU Computer Science Ph.D Student
>> IGERT Fellow
>> Alliance for Person-centered Accessible Technology (APAcT)
>> Center for Cognitive Ubiquitous Computing (CUbiC Lab)
>> National Federation of the Blind of Arizona | Affiliate Board Member
>> National Association of Blind Students | Board Member
>> Arizona Association of Blind Students | President
>> Phone: 480-652-3045
>> 
>>> On Feb 27, 2018, at 12:32 PM, Linux for blind general discussion 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Kathy
>> 
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> 
> -- 
> XB
> 
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Re: Screen reader advice for a Linux sysadmin

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Hi!
THe braille support on the mac terminal is not so good IMHO.
But it should be possible to compile and install brltty on the mac for better 
console support.
I haven’t done that yet as i am not understanding how to do that correctly.
/A

> 28 feb. 2018 kl. 17:21 skrev Linux for blind general discussion 
> :
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Jumping in here to try and clarify one point ...
> 
> Linux for blind general discussion writes:
> ...
> 
>> Do you use also a brailledisplay on the Mac and in the terminal?
>> Answer:
>> I do in deed us a Braille display on my Mac with no problem. I have a Focus 
>> 40 Blue and it works great. I will admit that I do not know Computer Braille 
>> yet but I would very much like to learn it so I can use Braille when 
>> developing software. It is on my to learn list for sure...
>> 
> Would you find your Mac Terminal as useful without the braille? I
> suspect not vis a vis Speakup on Linux.
> 
>> My questions:
>> 1. I am running Ubuntu 16.04 on my HP laptop but with little success in the 
>> terminal due to things not being spoken. I am running Orca as the screen 
>> reader. Can you provide some tips or how toos for making my terminal access 
>> and over all Linux experience more accessible?
>> 
> No surprise here. Speakup is what you want for console access.
> 
>> 2. You said "After using a Mac for a few weeks at work I was very 
>> disappointed. 
>> Especialy the VoiceOver support in the terminal is not more then 
>> rudimentary compared to the things you can do with a screenreader on a 
>> linux system."
>> 
> This is my experience precisely with my Mac Airbook.
> 
> In fact, while traveling with only the Airbook, I would ssh from a
> VMware Linux session into my Mac to do Mac terminal tasks, because of
> the superior screen reader support.
> 
> As noted above, braille would viciate my statement. I'm speaking of TTS
> only interfacing.
> 
> hth
> 
> Janina
> 
> -- 
> 
> Janina Sajka
> 
> Linux Foundation Fellow
> Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup: http://a11y.org
> 
> The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
> Chair, Accessible Platform Architectures  http://www.w3.org/wai/apa
> 
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Re: Screen reader advice for a Linux sysadmin

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Good point, Janina.  I do recall that Windows 10 has the ability to do
Linux distros.  I'll have to look into it.  I've just had Cygwin installed
for so long and it works fine, so haven't bothered to look into what's
new.  Glad you reminded me about it, thanks!

Kathy

On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 8:24 AM, Linux for blind general discussion <
blinux-list@redhat.com> wrote:

> Cygwin is the old way. There's now native Linux available on Windows 10.
> Currently it's Ubuntu and two flavors of Suse Linux, but more Linux
> distros are coming.
> --
>
> Janina Sajka
>
>
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Re: Screen reader advice for a Linux sysadmin

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Cygwin is the old way. There's now native Linux available on Windows 10.
Currently it's Ubuntu and two flavors of Suse Linux, but more Linux
distros are coming.

Linux for blind general discussion writes:
> I do plan on trying out ORCA at some point here.  Most of our servers are
> non-physicals, but I can just build a physical Ubuntu system with ORCA on
> one of my spare physical workstations.  Once I'm in a cygwin window on my
> Windows system, I just ssh from there to other servers.  I generally have
> several command line windows open, ssh'ed to other servers.  That isn't the
> issue.  The issue are these X-Windows and Java based tools, many of them
> don't have command line options to administer.  Yeah, you can go edit
> config files and the like, start and stop them, but if you're trying to
> troubleshoot the tool from the perspective of the user, or access some
> admin functions that are only inside the tool graphically, you're kinda
> stuck.   I think that ORCA on a physical Linux system and maybe a Mac will
> be my best options to try.
> 
> On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 11:31 AM, Linux for blind general discussion <
> blinux-list@redhat.com> wrote:
> 
> > Why not just ssh into your Linux servers from a Linux terminal? Its ssh
> > capability is far better than anything you can get from a Windows app using
> > their lackluster screen readers.
> >
> > Java apps use the java-atk-bridge to work with Orca, but that's only if
> > you require graphical tools. If not, you can do that from a text terminal
> > as well. That just leaves the Windows servers, and I personally would avoid
> > those like the plague, especially in a business environment. I can't
> > recommend anything good for accessing such things.
> >
> > Really though, Linux has some of the best accessibility tools around for
> > sysadmin tasks, so do give it a shot. If you find NVDA usable, you'll LOVE
> > Orca, as it deals with flat review of the screen rather than NVDA's
> > constructed object navigation, which is foreign even to a power user like
> > me.
> > Imetumwa kutoka kompyuta yangu
> >
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Janina Sajka

Linux Foundation Fellow
Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup:   http://a11y.org

The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
Chair, Accessible Platform Architectureshttp://www.w3.org/wai/apa

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Re: Screen reader advice for a Linux sysadmin

[Linux for blind general discussion]

I agree with the below, though I've also been reasonably happy with the
Linux bash shells provided by Windows 10.

Janina

Linux for blind general discussion writes:
> Why not just ssh into your Linux servers from a Linux terminal? Its ssh
> capability is far better than anything you can get from a Windows app using
> their lackluster screen readers.
> 
> Java apps use the java-atk-bridge to work with Orca, but that's only if you
> require graphical tools. If not, you can do that from a text terminal as
> well. That just leaves the Windows servers, and I personally would avoid
> those like the plague, especially in a business environment. I can't
> recommend anything good for accessing such things.
> 
> Really though, Linux has some of the best accessibility tools around for
> sysadmin tasks, so do give it a shot. If you find NVDA usable, you'll LOVE
> Orca, as it deals with flat review of the screen rather than NVDA's
> constructed object navigation, which is foreign even to a power user like
> me.
> Imetumwa kutoka kompyuta yangu
> 
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-- 

Janina Sajka

Linux Foundation Fellow
Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup:   http://a11y.org

The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
Chair, Accessible Platform Architectureshttp://www.w3.org/wai/apa

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Re: Screen reader advice for a Linux sysadmin

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Hi,

Jumping in here to try and clarify one point ...

Linux for blind general discussion writes:
...

> Do you use also a brailledisplay on the Mac and in the terminal?
> Answer:
> I do in deed us a Braille display on my Mac with no problem. I have a Focus 
> 40 Blue and it works great. I will admit that I do not know Computer Braille 
> yet but I would very much like to learn it so I can use Braille when 
> developing software. It is on my to learn list for sure...
> 
Would you find your Mac Terminal as useful without the braille? I
suspect not vis a vis Speakup on Linux.

> My questions:
> 1. I am running Ubuntu 16.04 on my HP laptop but with little success in the 
> terminal due to things not being spoken. I am running Orca as the screen 
> reader. Can you provide some tips or how toos for making my terminal access 
> and over all Linux experience more accessible?
> 
No surprise here. Speakup is what you want for console access.

> 2. You said "After using a Mac for a few weeks at work I was very 
> disappointed. 
> Especialy the VoiceOver support in the terminal is not more then 
> rudimentary compared to the things you can do with a screenreader on a 
> linux system."
> 
This is my experience precisely with my Mac Airbook.

In fact, while traveling with only the Airbook, I would ssh from a
VMware Linux session into my Mac to do Mac terminal tasks, because of
the superior screen reader support.

As noted above, braille would viciate my statement. I'm speaking of TTS
only interfacing.

hth

Janina

-- 

Janina Sajka

Linux Foundation Fellow
Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup:   http://a11y.org

The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
Chair, Accessible Platform Architectureshttp://www.w3.org/wai/apa

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Re: Screen reader advice for a Linux sysadmin

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Hello  Schoepp,

I can answer all of these questions for you and I will present a few of my own 
for you.

Your Questions:
I am still interested how people are able to work in the Mac 
terminal with VoiceOver successfully and productively. Are there any 
settings for the Mac terminal that make VoiceOver support better or dou 
you use another screenreader for the Mac terminal and not VoiceOver? 
Answer:
I am curious what commands or functions you found to not work in the Mac 
terminal? I use the Mac osX terminal running bash every single day and have no 
problems at all. The only screen reader available for Mac is Voiceover and it 
works perfectly in the terminal or any other application on the Mac. To answer 
your question, no I only use Voiceover in the terminal on my Mac.

How ofthen do you work in the Mac terminal, are you also working 
remotely on other systems via ssh and which tools are you using? 
Answer:
Yes I absolutely use SSH every time I am on my computer because my Ubuntu 16.04 
machine is actually running on an Amazon Web Services instance in the cloud. I 
do all my Cyber Security development, pen testing, and server admin remotely 
between my Mac terminal and AWS linux box via SSH.

The only tool I use for any of this is my terminal. The built in SSH support 
through bash is all I need..

Do you 
use the latest Mac OS version or which system  is running on your Mac? 
Answer:
Yes I am always running the latest Mac osX to make sure I am up-to-date with 
security and running the latest tools.

Do you use also a brailledisplay on the Mac and in the terminal?
Answer:
I do in deed us a Braille display on my Mac with no problem. I have a Focus 40 
Blue and it works great. I will admit that I do not know Computer Braille yet 
but I would very much like to learn it so I can use Braille when developing 
software. It is on my to learn list for sure...

My questions:
1. I am running Ubuntu 16.04 on my HP laptop but with little success in the 
terminal due to things not being spoken. I am running Orca as the screen 
reader. Can you provide some tips or how toos for making my terminal access and 
over all Linux experience more accessible?

2. You said "After using a Mac for a few weeks at work I was very disappointed. 
Especialy the VoiceOver support in the terminal is not more then 
rudimentary compared to the things you can do with a screenreader on a 
linux system."

Can you share with me what troubles you had with accessing the terminal on a 
Mac with Voiceover? I can issue any command, access the output, grep, redirect 
stdout to a file, use home brew to access external packages, and SSH. If you 
had any issues with these functions please let me know and I can help out with 
that off list if you are still interested. 

I would also like to know how in fact you perform some of these exact tasks 
using Linux in the terminal because this is what Ineed to access for the work I 
am doing.
• copy stdout text
• switch between several terminal windows
• copy and paste text from outside program i.e Fire fox

Thanks and I look forward to your reply. 

textbased environment and orca in Mate.

Bryan Duarte | software engineer

ASU Computer Science Ph.D Student
IGERT Fellow
Alliance for Person-centered Accessible Technology (APAcT)
Center for Cognitive Ubiquitous Computing (CUbiC Lab)
National Federation of the Blind of Arizona | Affiliate Board Member
National Association of Blind Students | Board Member
Arizona Association of Blind Students | President
Phone: 480-652-3045

> On Feb 28, 2018, at 1:52 AM, Linux for blind general discussion 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi Bryan,
> 
> On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 12:12:06PM -0700, Linux for blind general 
> discussion wrote:
>> 
>> I use Mac due to its high quality screen reader, easy to use 
>> interface, and access to Unix terminal.
> 
> I had the same idea a few years ago and thought that a Mac would be the 
> best solution for my needs. A Mac has a modern and easy to use 
> graphical interface and has also all things which are needed if you have 
> to work in a textbased terminal. I am also a linux admin since 15 years 
> and for my work I have to use a terminal most of the time, but sometimes 
> a modern browser or other tools are needed that are running in graphical 
> mode.
> 
> After using a Mac for a few weeks at work I was very disappointed. 
> Especialy the VoiceOver support in the terminal is not more then 
> rudimentary compared to the things you can do with a screenreader on a 
> linux system. Because of this I switched back to a linuxbased system and 
> I am using Debian on a laptop now with brltty and espeak in the 
> textbased environment and orca in Mate.
> 
> But I am still interested how people are able to work in the Mac 
> terminal with VoiceOver successfully and productively. Are there any 
> settings for the Mac terminal that make VoiceOver support better or dou 
> you use another screenreader for the Mac terminal and not VoiceOver? 

Re: Screen reader advice for a Linux sysadmin

[Linux for blind general discussion]

This is really helpful, Schoepp, thanks.  And thanks to everyone else who
replied since yesterday.  Catching up on all your posts.  This is giving me
a lot of ideas to try. :)

Kathy

>
> I had the same idea a few years ago and thought that a Mac would be the
> best solution for my needs. A Mac has a modern and easy to use
> graphical interface and has also all things which are needed if you have
> to work in a textbased terminal. I am also a linux admin since 15 years
> and for my work I have to use a terminal most of the time, but sometimes
> a modern browser or other tools are needed that are running in graphical
> mode.
>
> After using a Mac for a few weeks at work I was very disappointed.
> Especialy the VoiceOver support in the terminal is not more then
> rudimentary compared to the things you can do with a screenreader on a
> linux system. Because of this I switched back to a linuxbased system and
> I am using Debian on a laptop now with brltty and espeak in the
> textbased environment and orca in Mate.
>
> But I am still interested how people are able to work in the Mac
> terminal with VoiceOver successfully and productively. Are there any
> settings for the Mac terminal that make VoiceOver support better or dou
> you use another screenreader for the Mac terminal and not VoiceOver?
> How ofthen do you work in the Mac terminal, are you also working
> remotely on other systems via ssh and which tools are you using? Do you
> use the latest Mac OS version or which system  is running on your Mac?
> Do you use also a brailledisplay on the Mac and in the terminal?
>
> Cheers and all the best from Munich,
>
>   Schoepp
>
>
> --
> Christian Schoepplein -  -
> http://schoeppi.net
>
>
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Re: Screen reader advice for a Linux sysadmin

[Linux for blind general discussion]

On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 08:31:23AM -0500, Linux for blind general discussion 
wrote:
>
>
>I concur with using a mac as a ssh base.  The bsd based terminal can 
>be made much more accessable using the mac's native voiceover with a 
>few minor system configuration changes.

Which changes are necessary to make the textbased terminal work better 
with VoiceOver? With the default settings VO support for the terminal is 
not really good IMHO and everything I tried didn't it make better :-(.

I'd really like to use my Mac to administrate my Linux servers at work 
via ssh, write scripts or edit config files with vi on the servers, 
e.g., but all those things are not possible because VO looses the focus 
while writing commands in the shell or editing files wit vi, keeps 
hanging when much output is provided by a system and so on.

Every hint which makes things better in the terminal is highly wellcome 
:-).

Cheers and thanks,

  Schoepp

-- 
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Re: Screen reader advice for a Linux sysadmin

[Linux for blind general discussion]

I concur with using a mac as a ssh base.  The bsd based terminal can be made 
much more accessable using the mac's native voiceover with a few
minor system configuration changes.

One then has a good screen reader for any text based shh session or using ports 
of text applications in the mac as well as gui access as
needed.

On Tue, 27 Feb 2018, Linux for blind
general discussion wrote:

> You are very welcome Kathy. I understand I may have a bias towards Mac since 
> I use it predominately but I also advocate for individuals using what ever 
> tool can allow them to get the job done. For me I use a Mac for the before 
> mentioned reasons and because when I need to access Linux I can do so 
> remotely. As a software engineer who relies on a screen reader I choose the 
> machine which allows me to do what I need to with a very high quality speech 
> synthesizer.
>
> Someone on this list did say there might be an update for Orca to make it 
> work better with Ubuntu 16.04 but I have not had time to dedicate to the 
> installation of that update.
>
>
> Bryan Duarte | software engineer
>
> ASU Computer Science Ph.D Student
> IGERT Fellow
> Alliance for Person-centered Accessible Technology (APAcT)
> Center for Cognitive Ubiquitous Computing (CUbiC Lab)
> National Federation of the Blind of Arizona | Affiliate Board Member
> National Association of Blind Students | Board Member
> Arizona Association of Blind Students | President
> Phone: 480-652-3045
>
> > On Feb 27, 2018, at 12:32 PM, Linux for blind general discussion 
> >  wrote:
> >
> > Kathy
>
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Re: Screen reader advice for a Linux sysadmin

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Hi Bryan,

On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 12:12:06PM -0700, Linux for blind general 
discussion wrote:
>
>I use Mac due to its high quality screen reader, easy to use 
>interface, and access to Unix terminal.

I had the same idea a few years ago and thought that a Mac would be the 
best solution for my needs. A Mac has a modern and easy to use 
graphical interface and has also all things which are needed if you have 
to work in a textbased terminal. I am also a linux admin since 15 years 
and for my work I have to use a terminal most of the time, but sometimes 
a modern browser or other tools are needed that are running in graphical 
mode.

After using a Mac for a few weeks at work I was very disappointed. 
Especialy the VoiceOver support in the terminal is not more then 
rudimentary compared to the things you can do with a screenreader on a 
linux system. Because of this I switched back to a linuxbased system and 
I am using Debian on a laptop now with brltty and espeak in the 
textbased environment and orca in Mate.

But I am still interested how people are able to work in the Mac 
terminal with VoiceOver successfully and productively. Are there any 
settings for the Mac terminal that make VoiceOver support better or dou 
you use another screenreader for the Mac terminal and not VoiceOver? 
How ofthen do you work in the Mac terminal, are you also working 
remotely on other systems via ssh and which tools are you using? Do you 
use the latest Mac OS version or which system  is running on your Mac? 
Do you use also a brailledisplay on the Mac and in the terminal?

Cheers and all the best from Munich,

  Schoepp


-- 
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http://schoeppi.net

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Re: Screen reader advice for a Linux sysadmin

[Linux for blind general discussion]

The default desktop for Vinux 5 is Unity, but you can also switch to 
Mate or Gnome. I ended up switching to Gnome because Vinux made it so 
easy to give all three a try, and I decided I just preferred Gnome.



On 02/27/2018 01:48 PM, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:

Thanks, Rudy.  That Vinux is pretty interesting.  Apparently it works with
Unity GNOME desktop.  I will have to check it out!

https://vinuxproject.org/

On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 11:35 AM, Linux for blind general discussion <
blinux-list@redhat.com> wrote:


I was in your position several years ago. My solution was
to set up my environment to use all text based command line tools, and
hook up a talking terminal based on DOS, Vocal Eyes, and Telix to a
headless
Unix/Linux box.

Recently my DOS  machine died  for good, and I switched to speakup.
There is alearning curve to get used to the speakup   function
keys, but
aside from  that, my environment remains the same, except for minor
quibbles about the voice of the default speech synthesizer, which
I will eventually resolve.

This works for me, but if there is a graphic   tool
which you absolutely must use, you might check out Vinux, which
comes with a choice of three GUI options, none of which I know anything
about.

Good luck.
Rudy


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Chaltain at Gmail

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Re: Screen reader advice for a Linux sysadmin

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Kathy,

why not try one or more accessible Linux distributions?
I develop Slint and can help you get acquainted with it.
Beyond full accessibility from installation throgh usage with brltty,
espeakup in console mode and orca on the desktops (among which Mate),
it includes a complete toolbox and ready to be configured servers.
Wiki: http://slint.fr
Mailing list: http://slint.fr/mailman/listinfo/slint_slint.fr
http://slackware.uk/slint/x86_64/slint-14.2.1/README-14.2.1.1
http://slackware.uk/slint/x86_64/slint-14.2.1/doc/ACCESSIBILITY

Greetings,
Didier
---
Didier Spaier



Le 27/02/2018 à 23:56, Linux for blind general discussion a écrit :
> Kathy,
> I learned Braille at age 47. It took me just about 8 months to get down the 
> basics. After that, it just takes practice, practice and still more practice.
> 
> One other item in the braille arena you will need to learn is computer 
> braille (it's 8 dot as opposed to 6 dot). It will allow you a much more 
> flexible use of braille in both math and scripting environments.I have a 
> guide here from my time up at the colorado center for the blind. 
> 
> btw, if you need to learn braille, you can take the Hadely courses (free of 
> charge) or check in with a local blind center in your state.
> 
> -eric
> 
> On Feb 27, 2018, at 3:23 PM, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
> 
>> More great info, thank you!  This and what others have said has given me a
>> lot to look into and try.
>>
>> As to the braille, I agree with you.  I have already taken a couple of
>> classes in it, but I have not kept up with it, mostly because I wasn't
>> desperate enough at the time I think.  But the writing is on the wall and I
>> need to get back to it.  I found it rather difficult to learn but I know it
>> gets better with practice.  :)
>>
>> Kathy
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 1:27 PM, Linux for blind general discussion <
>> blinux-list@redhat.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Kathy,
>>> well, there are several options in a straight linux environment.
>>>
>>> ORCA is, by far, the most used for any of the Desktop managers in Linux
>>> and X. It works best in GTK and Gnome based DM's and is mostly usable in
>>> KDE.
>>>
>>> There is also Speakup for console operations. This along with BrlTTY,
>>> Emacsspeak and some of the lessor known console based TTS engines are
>>> useful. The first 3 are most commonly used and are quite configurable.
>>>
>>> As an aside, I have found JAVA to be notorious for it's lack of
>>> accessibility, even in an OS X environment (I use a mac here and always
>>> have problems with Java, especially when the accessibility classes are not
>>> used) I have not tried java outside of windows or OS X, but there might be
>>> better results inside of Linux.
>>>
>>> btw, NVDA can handle some things in windows that Jaws can't, and Vice
>>> Versa. I have often found that you need to have both (not running at the
>>> same time). Also, there are some apps in windows that are just plain
>>> inaccessible, regardless of whatever screen reader gets used (case in point
>>> is the safari web browser which presents what amounts to a blank scroll
>>> area). I have written apple accessibility on that issue and am not sure if
>>> they ever got around to addressing those issues.
>>>
>>> btw, one additional item you might wish to explore, learning braille.
>>> Believe me, it will come in handy especially when you are editing scripts
>>> and the screen reader makes a hash of it so far as reading them is
>>> concerned.
>>>
>>> Now, I am largely a self taught Linux System Administrator. I have used
>>> the OSsince late 1998 (along side windows and after 2008, OS X as well).
>>> Each OS has it's good points and can do some stuff that others might not.
>>>
>>> lastly, you might find working inside a VM a little frustrating without a
>>> screen reader on the inside it. Most screen readers on the host OS cannot
>>> read what's inside the application pane of virtually any VM (parallels,
>>> VmWare, etc). These panes are designed to emulate the direct output of a
>>> monitor connected to the Vm, so it will be graphical in presentation as
>>> well as base nature.
>>>
>>> I hope this helps you.
>>> On Feb 27, 2018, at 11:55 AM, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
>>>
 Hi everyone --

 I just joined this list and I am a Linux sysadmin who has been in IT for
 over 20 years and my sight now is pretty close to nothing.  I am down to
 about 5 degrees of vision and going to nothing at some point, so am
 starting to look at screen readers to get used to them before everything
 goes dark.  I'm looking to see what other Linux users use and what works
 best.  I have a somewhat complicated desktop because I work in an
 engineering environment that has a lot of engineering tools based on java
 and X-Windows.  Some of the other tools are web based, which makes it
 easier.  I support a lot of varying tools and servers, both Linux and
 

Re: Screen reader advice for a Linux sysadmin

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Kathy,
I learned Braille at age 47. It took me just about 8 months to get down the 
basics. After that, it just takes practice, practice and still more practice.

One other item in the braille arena you will need to learn is computer braille 
(it's 8 dot as opposed to 6 dot). It will allow you a much more flexible use of 
braille in both math and scripting environments.I have a guide here from my 
time up at the colorado center for the blind. 

btw, if you need to learn braille, you can take the Hadely courses (free of 
charge) or check in with a local blind center in your state.

-eric

On Feb 27, 2018, at 3:23 PM, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:

> More great info, thank you!  This and what others have said has given me a
> lot to look into and try.
> 
> As to the braille, I agree with you.  I have already taken a couple of
> classes in it, but I have not kept up with it, mostly because I wasn't
> desperate enough at the time I think.  But the writing is on the wall and I
> need to get back to it.  I found it rather difficult to learn but I know it
> gets better with practice.  :)
> 
> Kathy
> 
> On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 1:27 PM, Linux for blind general discussion <
> blinux-list@redhat.com> wrote:
> 
>> Kathy,
>> well, there are several options in a straight linux environment.
>> 
>> ORCA is, by far, the most used for any of the Desktop managers in Linux
>> and X. It works best in GTK and Gnome based DM's and is mostly usable in
>> KDE.
>> 
>> There is also Speakup for console operations. This along with BrlTTY,
>> Emacsspeak and some of the lessor known console based TTS engines are
>> useful. The first 3 are most commonly used and are quite configurable.
>> 
>> As an aside, I have found JAVA to be notorious for it's lack of
>> accessibility, even in an OS X environment (I use a mac here and always
>> have problems with Java, especially when the accessibility classes are not
>> used) I have not tried java outside of windows or OS X, but there might be
>> better results inside of Linux.
>> 
>> btw, NVDA can handle some things in windows that Jaws can't, and Vice
>> Versa. I have often found that you need to have both (not running at the
>> same time). Also, there are some apps in windows that are just plain
>> inaccessible, regardless of whatever screen reader gets used (case in point
>> is the safari web browser which presents what amounts to a blank scroll
>> area). I have written apple accessibility on that issue and am not sure if
>> they ever got around to addressing those issues.
>> 
>> btw, one additional item you might wish to explore, learning braille.
>> Believe me, it will come in handy especially when you are editing scripts
>> and the screen reader makes a hash of it so far as reading them is
>> concerned.
>> 
>> Now, I am largely a self taught Linux System Administrator. I have used
>> the OSsince late 1998 (along side windows and after 2008, OS X as well).
>> Each OS has it's good points and can do some stuff that others might not.
>> 
>> lastly, you might find working inside a VM a little frustrating without a
>> screen reader on the inside it. Most screen readers on the host OS cannot
>> read what's inside the application pane of virtually any VM (parallels,
>> VmWare, etc). These panes are designed to emulate the direct output of a
>> monitor connected to the Vm, so it will be graphical in presentation as
>> well as base nature.
>> 
>> I hope this helps you.
>> On Feb 27, 2018, at 11:55 AM, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi everyone --
>>> 
>>> I just joined this list and I am a Linux sysadmin who has been in IT for
>>> over 20 years and my sight now is pretty close to nothing.  I am down to
>>> about 5 degrees of vision and going to nothing at some point, so am
>>> starting to look at screen readers to get used to them before everything
>>> goes dark.  I'm looking to see what other Linux users use and what works
>>> best.  I have a somewhat complicated desktop because I work in an
>>> engineering environment that has a lot of engineering tools based on java
>>> and X-Windows.  Some of the other tools are web based, which makes it
>>> easier.  I support a lot of varying tools and servers, both Linux and
>>> Windows.  I switched back from Linux to Windows as my base desktop for
>> the
>>> accessibility functions.  I have cygwin installed so I can ssh to my
>>> servers.  I also use VNC Viewer so I can get to a VNC session on my
>> servers
>>> in a gui and I also use RDP to get to my Windows servers.  I have decided
>>> that I loathe JAWS in the short time that I have tried it but admittedly
>> I
>>> have not used it for very long.  I so far like NVDA much better and find
>> it
>>> much more simple to learn.  I also use a Mac at home so have toyed with
>>> Voiceover.  I'm beginning to think that one screen reader is not going to
>>> do it all for me.  And that I just need to get used to one of them to
>>> start.  NVDA can read and understand a cygwin window, 

Re: Screen reader advice for a Linux sysadmin

[Linux for blind general discussion]

More great info, thank you!  This and what others have said has given me a
lot to look into and try.

As to the braille, I agree with you.  I have already taken a couple of
classes in it, but I have not kept up with it, mostly because I wasn't
desperate enough at the time I think.  But the writing is on the wall and I
need to get back to it.  I found it rather difficult to learn but I know it
gets better with practice.  :)

Kathy

On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 1:27 PM, Linux for blind general discussion <
blinux-list@redhat.com> wrote:

> Kathy,
> well, there are several options in a straight linux environment.
>
> ORCA is, by far, the most used for any of the Desktop managers in Linux
> and X. It works best in GTK and Gnome based DM's and is mostly usable in
> KDE.
>
> There is also Speakup for console operations. This along with BrlTTY,
> Emacsspeak and some of the lessor known console based TTS engines are
> useful. The first 3 are most commonly used and are quite configurable.
>
> As an aside, I have found JAVA to be notorious for it's lack of
> accessibility, even in an OS X environment (I use a mac here and always
> have problems with Java, especially when the accessibility classes are not
> used) I have not tried java outside of windows or OS X, but there might be
> better results inside of Linux.
>
> btw, NVDA can handle some things in windows that Jaws can't, and Vice
> Versa. I have often found that you need to have both (not running at the
> same time). Also, there are some apps in windows that are just plain
> inaccessible, regardless of whatever screen reader gets used (case in point
> is the safari web browser which presents what amounts to a blank scroll
> area). I have written apple accessibility on that issue and am not sure if
> they ever got around to addressing those issues.
>
> btw, one additional item you might wish to explore, learning braille.
> Believe me, it will come in handy especially when you are editing scripts
> and the screen reader makes a hash of it so far as reading them is
> concerned.
>
> Now, I am largely a self taught Linux System Administrator. I have used
> the OSsince late 1998 (along side windows and after 2008, OS X as well).
> Each OS has it's good points and can do some stuff that others might not.
>
> lastly, you might find working inside a VM a little frustrating without a
> screen reader on the inside it. Most screen readers on the host OS cannot
> read what's inside the application pane of virtually any VM (parallels,
> VmWare, etc). These panes are designed to emulate the direct output of a
> monitor connected to the Vm, so it will be graphical in presentation as
> well as base nature.
>
> I hope this helps you.
> On Feb 27, 2018, at 11:55 AM, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
>
> > Hi everyone --
> >
> > I just joined this list and I am a Linux sysadmin who has been in IT for
> > over 20 years and my sight now is pretty close to nothing.  I am down to
> > about 5 degrees of vision and going to nothing at some point, so am
> > starting to look at screen readers to get used to them before everything
> > goes dark.  I'm looking to see what other Linux users use and what works
> > best.  I have a somewhat complicated desktop because I work in an
> > engineering environment that has a lot of engineering tools based on java
> > and X-Windows.  Some of the other tools are web based, which makes it
> > easier.  I support a lot of varying tools and servers, both Linux and
> > Windows.  I switched back from Linux to Windows as my base desktop for
> the
> > accessibility functions.  I have cygwin installed so I can ssh to my
> > servers.  I also use VNC Viewer so I can get to a VNC session on my
> servers
> > in a gui and I also use RDP to get to my Windows servers.  I have decided
> > that I loathe JAWS in the short time that I have tried it but admittedly
> I
> > have not used it for very long.  I so far like NVDA much better and find
> it
> > much more simple to learn.  I also use a Mac at home so have toyed with
> > Voiceover.  I'm beginning to think that one screen reader is not going to
> > do it all for me.  And that I just need to get used to one of them to
> > start.  NVDA can read and understand a cygwin window, which is great.  It
> > has zero idea what is inside a VNC viewer session.  I haven't yet tried
> it
> > on an RDP session with Windows.  I know ORCA is available as well on
> > Linux.  What do you all use?  Any advice?  I'm wondering if I would be
> > better off with a Mac as my base operating system since I've heard
> > Voiceover handles Java apps better.
> >
> > Thanks for the advice!
> >
> > Kathy
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Re: Screen reader advice for a Linux sysadmin

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Kathy,
well, there are several options in a straight linux environment. 

ORCA is, by far, the most used for any of the Desktop managers in Linux and X. 
It works best in GTK and Gnome based DM's and is mostly usable in KDE.

There is also Speakup for console operations. This along with BrlTTY, 
Emacsspeak and some of the lessor known console based TTS engines are useful. 
The first 3 are most commonly used and are quite configurable.

As an aside, I have found JAVA to be notorious for it's lack of accessibility, 
even in an OS X environment (I use a mac here and always have problems with 
Java, especially when the accessibility classes are not used) I have not tried 
java outside of windows or OS X, but there might be better results inside of 
Linux.

btw, NVDA can handle some things in windows that Jaws can't, and Vice Versa. I 
have often found that you need to have both (not running at the same time). 
Also, there are some apps in windows that are just plain inaccessible, 
regardless of whatever screen reader gets used (case in point is the safari web 
browser which presents what amounts to a blank scroll area). I have written 
apple accessibility on that issue and am not sure if they ever got around to 
addressing those issues.

btw, one additional item you might wish to explore, learning braille. Believe 
me, it will come in handy especially when you are editing scripts and the 
screen reader makes a hash of it so far as reading them is concerned.

Now, I am largely a self taught Linux System Administrator. I have used the 
OSsince late 1998 (along side windows and after 2008, OS X as well). Each OS 
has it's good points and can do some stuff that others might not.

lastly, you might find working inside a VM a little frustrating without a 
screen reader on the inside it. Most screen readers on the host OS cannot read 
what's inside the application pane of virtually any VM (parallels, VmWare, 
etc). These panes are designed to emulate the direct output of a monitor 
connected to the Vm, so it will be graphical in presentation as well as base 
nature.

I hope this helps you.
On Feb 27, 2018, at 11:55 AM, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:

> Hi everyone --
> 
> I just joined this list and I am a Linux sysadmin who has been in IT for
> over 20 years and my sight now is pretty close to nothing.  I am down to
> about 5 degrees of vision and going to nothing at some point, so am
> starting to look at screen readers to get used to them before everything
> goes dark.  I'm looking to see what other Linux users use and what works
> best.  I have a somewhat complicated desktop because I work in an
> engineering environment that has a lot of engineering tools based on java
> and X-Windows.  Some of the other tools are web based, which makes it
> easier.  I support a lot of varying tools and servers, both Linux and
> Windows.  I switched back from Linux to Windows as my base desktop for the
> accessibility functions.  I have cygwin installed so I can ssh to my
> servers.  I also use VNC Viewer so I can get to a VNC session on my servers
> in a gui and I also use RDP to get to my Windows servers.  I have decided
> that I loathe JAWS in the short time that I have tried it but admittedly I
> have not used it for very long.  I so far like NVDA much better and find it
> much more simple to learn.  I also use a Mac at home so have toyed with
> Voiceover.  I'm beginning to think that one screen reader is not going to
> do it all for me.  And that I just need to get used to one of them to
> start.  NVDA can read and understand a cygwin window, which is great.  It
> has zero idea what is inside a VNC viewer session.  I haven't yet tried it
> on an RDP session with Windows.  I know ORCA is available as well on
> Linux.  What do you all use?  Any advice?  I'm wondering if I would be
> better off with a Mac as my base operating system since I've heard
> Voiceover handles Java apps better.
> 
> Thanks for the advice!
> 
> Kathy
> ___
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Re: Screen reader advice for a Linux sysadmin

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Well Kathy-and-All, as far as strictly a screen-reader, my all-time favorite was 
Volcal-Eyes, quite stable. Yes, since 2003 I am running speakup, but with 
continuing frustrations involving the DecTalk. As far as N V D A  the flat 
review mode was nice, but reading a unix shell was not so intuitive as reading 
in straigh ahead linux or ajusting highlighting in JAWS.
As far as Mac, I was at an Apple store, but I wasn't able to try much inside a 
unix prompt as permissions were such that I couldn't download other voices. 
Also, for some reason it was reading alot of "spaces"
I guess we really need a replacement for orca which would read as much as actual 
windows screen-readers.

Chime

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Re: Screen reader advice for a Linux sysadmin

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Thanks, Rudy.  That Vinux is pretty interesting.  Apparently it works with
Unity GNOME desktop.  I will have to check it out!

https://vinuxproject.org/

On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 11:35 AM, Linux for blind general discussion <
blinux-list@redhat.com> wrote:

> I was in your position several years ago. My solution was
> to set up my environment to use all text based command line tools, and
> hook up a talking terminal based on DOS, Vocal Eyes, and Telix to a
> headless
> Unix/Linux box.
>
> Recently my DOS  machine died  for good, and I switched to speakup.
> There is alearning curve to get used to the speakup   function
> keys, but
> aside from  that, my environment remains the same, except for minor
> quibbles about the voice of the default speech synthesizer, which
> I will eventually resolve.
>
> This works for me, but if there is a graphic   tool
> which you absolutely must use, you might check out Vinux, which
> comes with a choice of three GUI options, none of which I know anything
> about.
>
> Good luck.
> Rudy
>
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Re: Screen reader advice for a Linux sysadmin

[Linux for blind general discussion]

I do plan on trying out ORCA at some point here.  Most of our servers are
non-physicals, but I can just build a physical Ubuntu system with ORCA on
one of my spare physical workstations.  Once I'm in a cygwin window on my
Windows system, I just ssh from there to other servers.  I generally have
several command line windows open, ssh'ed to other servers.  That isn't the
issue.  The issue are these X-Windows and Java based tools, many of them
don't have command line options to administer.  Yeah, you can go edit
config files and the like, start and stop them, but if you're trying to
troubleshoot the tool from the perspective of the user, or access some
admin functions that are only inside the tool graphically, you're kinda
stuck.   I think that ORCA on a physical Linux system and maybe a Mac will
be my best options to try.

On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 11:31 AM, Linux for blind general discussion <
blinux-list@redhat.com> wrote:

> Why not just ssh into your Linux servers from a Linux terminal? Its ssh
> capability is far better than anything you can get from a Windows app using
> their lackluster screen readers.
>
> Java apps use the java-atk-bridge to work with Orca, but that's only if
> you require graphical tools. If not, you can do that from a text terminal
> as well. That just leaves the Windows servers, and I personally would avoid
> those like the plague, especially in a business environment. I can't
> recommend anything good for accessing such things.
>
> Really though, Linux has some of the best accessibility tools around for
> sysadmin tasks, so do give it a shot. If you find NVDA usable, you'll LOVE
> Orca, as it deals with flat review of the screen rather than NVDA's
> constructed object navigation, which is foreign even to a power user like
> me.
> Imetumwa kutoka kompyuta yangu
>
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Re: Screen reader advice for a Linux sysadmin

[Linux for blind general discussion]

You are very welcome Kathy. I understand I may have a bias towards Mac since I 
use it predominately but I also advocate for individuals using what ever tool 
can allow them to get the job done. For me I use a Mac for the before mentioned 
reasons and because when I need to access Linux I can do so remotely. As a 
software engineer who relies on a screen reader I choose the machine which 
allows me to do what I need to with a very high quality speech synthesizer. 

Someone on this list did say there might be an update for Orca to make it work 
better with Ubuntu 16.04 but I have not had time to dedicate to the 
installation of that update. 


Bryan Duarte | software engineer

ASU Computer Science Ph.D Student
IGERT Fellow
Alliance for Person-centered Accessible Technology (APAcT)
Center for Cognitive Ubiquitous Computing (CUbiC Lab)
National Federation of the Blind of Arizona | Affiliate Board Member
National Association of Blind Students | Board Member
Arizona Association of Blind Students | President
Phone: 480-652-3045

> On Feb 27, 2018, at 12:32 PM, Linux for blind general discussion 
>  wrote:
> 
> Kathy

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Re: Screen reader advice for a Linux sysadmin

[Linux for blind general discussion]

I was in your position several years ago. My solution was
to set up my environment to use all text based command line tools, and
hook up a talking terminal based on DOS, Vocal Eyes, and Telix to a headless
Unix/Linux box.

Recently my DOS  machine died  for good, and I switched to speakup.
There is alearning curve to get used to the speakup   function keys, but
aside from  that, my environment remains the same, except for minor 
quibbles about the voice of the default speech synthesizer, which
I will eventually resolve.

This works for me, but if there is a graphic   tool 
which you absolutely must use, you might check out Vinux, which
comes with a choice of three GUI options, none of which I know anything about.

Good luck.
Rudy

On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 10:55:13AM -0800, Linux for blind general discussion 
wrote:
> Hi everyone --
> 
> I just joined this list and I am a Linux sysadmin who has been in IT for
> over 20 years and my sight now is pretty close to nothing.  I am down to
> about 5 degrees of vision and going to nothing at some point, so am
> starting to look at screen readers to get used to them before everything
> goes dark.  I'm looking to see what other Linux users use and what works
> best.  I have a somewhat complicated desktop because I work in an
> engineering environment that has a lot of engineering tools based on java
> and X-Windows.  Some of the other tools are web based, which makes it
> easier.  I support a lot of varying tools and servers, both Linux and
> Windows.  I switched back from Linux to Windows as my base desktop for the
> accessibility functions.  I have cygwin installed so I can ssh to my
> servers.  I also use VNC Viewer so I can get to a VNC session on my servers
> in a gui and I also use RDP to get to my Windows servers.  I have decided
> that I loathe JAWS in the short time that I have tried it but admittedly I
> have not used it for very long.  I so far like NVDA much better and find it
> much more simple to learn.  I also use a Mac at home so have toyed with
> Voiceover.  I'm beginning to think that one screen reader is not going to
> do it all for me.  And that I just need to get used to one of them to
> start.  NVDA can read and understand a cygwin window, which is great.  It
> has zero idea what is inside a VNC viewer session.  I haven't yet tried it
> on an RDP session with Windows.  I know ORCA is available as well on
> Linux.  What do you all use?  Any advice?  I'm wondering if I would be
> better off with a Mac as my base operating system since I've heard
> Voiceover handles Java apps better.
> 
> Thanks for the advice!
> 
> Kathy
> ___
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-- 
Rudy Vener
Website: http://www.rudyvener.com

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Re: Screen reader advice for a Linux sysadmin

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Why not just ssh into your Linux servers from a Linux terminal? Its ssh 
capability is far better than anything you can get from a Windows app 
using their lackluster screen readers.


Java apps use the java-atk-bridge to work with Orca, but that's only if 
you require graphical tools. If not, you can do that from a text 
terminal as well. That just leaves the Windows servers, and I personally 
would avoid those like the plague, especially in a business environment. 
I can't recommend anything good for accessing such things.


Really though, Linux has some of the best accessibility tools around for 
sysadmin tasks, so do give it a shot. If you find NVDA usable, you'll 
LOVE Orca, as it deals with flat review of the screen rather than NVDA's 
constructed object navigation, which is foreign even to a power user 
like me.

Imetumwa kutoka kompyuta yangu

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Re: Screen reader advice for a Linux sysadmin

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Thanks, Harmony and Bryan, for the quick replies.  You guys are definitely
making me want to try my Mac in my work environment as it sounds like I
might have better luck with more things.  My Linux servers are a mixture of
Redhat Enterprise Linux, CentOS, or Ubuntu.  Some ancient Debian.  Some of
them are servers for running tools and databases and some of them are for
silicon engineers (ASIC and FGPA), software engineers, or electrical
engineers who are running a lot of varying tools, both command line or gui
based.  Putty works great but it does not do X-Windows, hence why I have
Cygwin or why I use VNC to get to GNOME or KDE to be able to run gui based
tools.  That is the biggest weakness that I can see with these screen
readers.  They understand the Linux command line through ssh terminals but
it's the more graphical guis that they struggle with.  Interesting your
experience with ORCA, Bryan.  As to the remote Windows systems, I didn't
realize that NVDA has NVDA Remote.  Thanks, Harmony, I will check that
out.

Kathy



On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 11:12 AM, Linux for blind general discussion <
blinux-list@redhat.com> wrote:

> Hello Kathy,
>
> I will admittedly confess that I too have asked these same types of
> questions recently on this list. I understand there are a lot of Linux
> users who rely on assistive technology to interact with their system but
> for me Orca was not working as expected. I am a PhD research student and I
> do a lot with embedded systems, several different programming languages,
> and shell commands. I recently was required to use Ubuntu 16.04 to develop,
> run, and test a program. I went out and purchased a new HP laptop to
> install Ubuntu on but once I did I ran into a lot of technical difficulties
> when using Orca. There were some things Orca was not reading, other things
> where Orca would stop talking, and still other things which I was unable to
> determine if Orca was the problem. As a result I simply spun up an AWS
> instance running Ubuntu 16.04 and I use my Mac terminal to ssh into my
> Ubuntu box. I was able to develop, run and test my software with no problem
> at all. I will also admit that I do not use Wind
>  ows much at all if I can help it but if necessary I will use it for a
> given task.
>
> Here is my opinion and it is only my opinion I am sure others here can
> provide a very different opinion. I use Mac due to its high quality screen
> reader, easy to use interface, and access to Unix terminal. I would love to
> say I use Linux because I do but at this current moment I only use it on
> the cloud virtually. Maybe that is the same thing in retrospect. I can use
> all three operating systems with different screen readers because I want to
> make sure I am versatile and able to use whatever is necessary for me to
> solve the problem at hand. Since you have done your job for 20 years or so
> you know best what you will require to continue performing that job. I can
> say that everything you described can be done using a Mac with built in
> tools. Hope this helps.
>
>
> Bryan Duarte | software engineer
>
> ASU Computer Science Ph.D Student
> IGERT Fellow
> Alliance for Person-centered Accessible Technology (APAcT)
> Center for Cognitive Ubiquitous Computing (CUbiC Lab)
> National Federation of the Blind of Arizona | Affiliate Board Member
> National Association of Blind Students | Board Member
> Arizona Association of Blind Students | President
> Phone: 480-652-3045
>
> > On Feb 27, 2018, at 11:55 AM, Linux for blind general discussion <
> blinux-list@redhat.com> wrote:
> >
> > Kathy
>
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Re: Screen reader advice for a Linux sysadmin

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Hello Kathy,

I am just getting started on learning system administrations, as I've 
always wanted to host my own web site, e-mail, and manage my DNS. I 
started out with a Windows server 2012 R2, but found that it was too 
expensive. Plus, people say that in terms of security, Windows is one of 
the worst operating systems to host Linux due to its faulty 
construction. They described it as being built like a strainer. You can 
plug up all the holes in the strainer, but some water will still manage 
to leak out of it. Linux, on the other hand, was built more like a tea pot.

I started out without a virtual server at http://www.vps.net/ I didn't 
like how things were going, so I cancelled it and got a Ubuntu server. A 
friend of mine got me set up with PuTTY, and another friend showed me 
how to install Open SSH with Scoop in Windows Power Shell. I could now 
use that to SSH into my server. I use NVDA for all of these things.

Next, I had the opportunity to try out a Vinux virtual machine, so I 
used that to manage things in the terminal, and Orca was pretty good at 
it. I generally find Java platforms very inaccessible with NVDA.

I wonder if the reason Java seems to work work with Voiceover is because 
Java works differently for Unix and Unix-like operating system?

Anyhow, I now have a VPS at http://www.linode.com/ Of course, if you 
wanted to go on a more professional web hosting and domain name 
management service, you can use Go Daddy. I just found out that they do 
indeed have VPS and dedicated servers, so that could give you some 
things to work with. But, if you simply want to test things, get a 
Linode, server or two, as they are generally cheaper.

I never really liked the audio quality of RDP. It compresses the audio 
way too much. I mean, if you had to use a Windows server, you could 
install NVDA Remote on both copies and then control it that way. I never 
tried VNC, but I don't think you would really benefit from it as it's 
primarily a web-based console that is inaccessible. You would rather be 
better off just using NVDA Remote to control the Windows server, or 
using SSH in Windows Power Shell, or install a programme like PuTTY and 
Win SCP.

Since you have tried a Mac, you can just SSH directly from within the 
terminal, since it is, after all, Unix-based.

Hope this helps you out some. :-)

Harmony

http://www.sensation-experience.com/


On 27/02/2018 10:55, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
> Hi everyone --
>
> I just joined this list and I am a Linux sysadmin who has been in IT for
> over 20 years and my sight now is pretty close to nothing.  I am down to
> about 5 degrees of vision and going to nothing at some point, so am
> starting to look at screen readers to get used to them before everything
> goes dark.  I'm looking to see what other Linux users use and what works
> best.  I have a somewhat complicated desktop because I work in an
> engineering environment that has a lot of engineering tools based on java
> and X-Windows.  Some of the other tools are web based, which makes it
> easier.  I support a lot of varying tools and servers, both Linux and
> Windows.  I switched back from Linux to Windows as my base desktop for the
> accessibility functions.  I have cygwin installed so I can ssh to my
> servers.  I also use VNC Viewer so I can get to a VNC session on my servers
> in a gui and I also use RDP to get to my Windows servers.  I have decided
> that I loathe JAWS in the short time that I have tried it but admittedly I
> have not used it for very long.  I so far like NVDA much better and find it
> much more simple to learn.  I also use a Mac at home so have toyed with
> Voiceover.  I'm beginning to think that one screen reader is not going to
> do it all for me.  And that I just need to get used to one of them to
> start.  NVDA can read and understand a cygwin window, which is great.  It
> has zero idea what is inside a VNC viewer session.  I haven't yet tried it
> on an RDP session with Windows.  I know ORCA is available as well on
> Linux.  What do you all use?  Any advice?  I'm wondering if I would be
> better off with a Mac as my base operating system since I've heard
> Voiceover handles Java apps better.
>
> Thanks for the advice!
>
> Kathy
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