RE: Is it Just Me? Re: Thank Goodness
John D. Giorgis wrote: At 11:36 PM 12/19/2003 -0800 Doug Pensinger wrote: In case you hadn't heard the good news... http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A13579-2003Dec18.html O.k., is it just me, or am I the only person who read the subject line Thank goodness and saw the words in case you haven't heard the good news and instantly assumed that the link provided would be to this article: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A16589-2003Dec19.html I mean, a dangerous State deciding to give up chemical and biological weapons, as well as a nuclear weapons program so as to join the rest of the world in the international community.All of that is somehow not the thank goodness - good news story of the day? Can't answer for the others but I'd have thought that the bigger news would obviously be your own judiciary protecting your fundamental rights from your government's excesses. I just don't get it sometimes. I seem to be in the same boat - have no idea why the Libyan development is supposed to be more important than the ruling in the Padilla case. :) Ritu ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Non-PC Humor from other lands
At least it wasn't This is my weapon, this is my gun . . . At 01:58 PM 12/20/03, Trent Shipley wrote: This was retold by VS Naipaul: In days of yore the Shah is reviewing the troops. He holds a rifle before a private and asks, Soldier what is your name? Private Ahmed, your highness! He takes Ahmed's rifle and examines it. What is this Private Ahmad? It is my rifle Sir! The Shah says No. it is your Honor, your Wife, your Sister, your Mother. He hands the rifle back. Private Ahmed steps back in line. The Shah walks down the line and examines a rifle from another private who happens to be a Turk (not a Persian) from d-e-e-p in the hill country. The Shah asks Soldier what is this? The Turk responds, with military precision, It is Private Ahmad's Honor, his Wife, ... -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Week 16 NFL Picks
On the bright side, did you know that it can be a lot of fun doing play-by-play for an infant? 1) Hold infant in front of you, facing you. 2) Peer over infant's shoulder to see the TV. 3) As the play is made, describe it in a high-pitched voice with all the enthusiasm you can muster. Between plays, comment on the score, the field, the coaches, etc. in the same enthusiastic, high-pitched voice. 4) Enjoy her smiles in reaction to your talking to her like that. :) Julia That was in Three Men and Baby also. Tom Selleck was reading a Sports Illustrated article about a boxing match, with blood and other graphic details, but in a high voice to entertain the baby. Back from shopping. Drove to Philly for a computer show and sale, got there and found a gun show in progress also. (The kind described in the dreaded gun show loophole.) So great fun for both. This is the earliest I've been done shopping in ten years. I should get wrapping done tomorrow. And Atlanta winning! Swoon. Hmm, TB just scored and got the two-point play. Spoke too soound? Kevin T. - VRWC Off to work ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Week 16 NFL Picks
John D. Giorgis wrote: Thank goodness my horrible season of picking the NFL games is almost over. Here is one of my last gasp attempts to try and pick a perfect slate for a single week in the year: In Florida, I like TAMPA BAY to continue their domination of Atlanta. Up in Minnesota, everyone said that this would be a tough game for the Chiefs even before they lost two games. That hasn't changed, so I'll take the VIKINGS. On Saturday Night, the Meadowlands will be arockin' in a throw-out-the-records rivalry game. The Patriots in my mind really aren't nearly as good as their record shows, having won a ton of very close games on some nice bounces of the football, and will be upset. I'll take the JETS. You're 1-2 for today. I wish you better luck tomorrow. Julia who was pulling for the Patriots, big-time ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Michael Crichton is Evil and Must be Destroyed (was: Scouted: Environmentalism is Evil and Must Be Destroyed)
At 02:37 AM 12/20/03, Deborah Harrell wrote: --- Michael Harney [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snipped most Regarding DDT: Banning DDT was not a mistake, as a matter of fact, Mr. Crichton's** insistance that it was a mistake, and that DDT is safe, are mistakes on his part... ...so an internet search of articles with many sources cited will have to do for now: http://www.seaweb.org/background/cetaceans.html http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/nature/journal/v375/n6532/abs/375581a0.html http://www.nature.com/nsu/010719/010719-3.html Here is the International Programme on Chemical Safety (IPCS) site on DDT: (it is a joint venture of the United Nations Environment Programme, the International Labour Organisation, and the World Health Organization) http://www.inchem.org/documents/ehc/ehc/ehc83.htm#SectionNumber:1.8 The physicochemical properties of DDT and its metabolites enable these compounds to be taken up readily by organisms. High lipid solubility and low water solubility lead to the retention of DDT and its stable metabolites in fatty tissue. The rates of accumulation into organisms vary with the species, with the duration and concentration of exposure, and with environmental conditions. The high retention of DDT metabolites means that toxic effects can occur in organisms remote in time and geographical area from the point of exposure. These compounds are resistant to breakdown and are readily adsorbed to sediments and soils that can act both as sinks and as long-term sources of exposure (e.g., for soil organisms). Organisms can accumulate these chemicals from the surrounding medium and from food. In aquatic organisms, uptake from the water is generally more important, whereas, in terrestrial fauna, food provides the major source. In general, organisms at higher trophic levels tend to contain more DDT-type compounds than those at lower trophic levels. [Raptors are particularly susceptible to DDT's thinning of their eggshells, while ducks and chickens are not. This is detailed in the article.] Such compounds can be transported around the world in the bodies of migrant animals and in ocean and air currents This is a very detailed article with summaries of many studies on microbes, fish, amphibians, and birds - also affected were bats. Our national bird, the bald eagle, was threatened with extinction in the lower 48 states by hunting, habitat destruction, and poisoning: The greatest threat to the bald eagle's existence arose from the widespread use of DDT and other pesticides after World War II. (Lead poisoning from hunters birdshot was also a significant problem; its use was phased out by 1991.) http://www.usflag.org/bald.eagle.html ...With these and other recovery methods, as well as habitat improvement and the banning of DDT, the bald eagle has made a remarkable comeback. From fewer than 450 nesting pairs in the early 1960s, there are now more than 4,000 adult bald eagles nesting pairs and an unknown number of young and subadults in the conterminous United States. This represents a substantial breeding population... There are groups who deny the toxicity of DDT; here is one site: http://dwb.unl.edu/Teacher/NSF/C06/C06Links/www.altgreen.com.au/Chemicals/ddt.html But women exposed prenatally to higher levels of DDT have decreased probability of pregnancy: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrievedb=PubMedlist_uids=12842376dopt=Abstract The decreased fecundability associated with prenatal p,p'-DDT remains unexplained. [OTOH, DDE exposure seemed to increase pregnancy rates -- these chemicals do have estrogenic +/or antiestrogenic activity; there is speculation that some herbicides, also found to have hormonal activity, may contribute to development of breast cancer.] In trout, DDT and its relatives/metabolites also have both estrogenic and anti- activity: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrievedb=PubMedlist_uids=12167306dopt=Abstract And DDT is merely one of the chemical soup contaminants found in the now-endangered Stellar sea lion: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrievedb=PubMedlist_uids=12826388dopt=Abstract ..SSL tissues show accumulation of butyltins, mercury, PCBs, DDTs, chlordanes and hexachlorobenzene. SSL habitats and prey are contaminated with additional chemicals including mirex, endrin, dieldrin, hexachlorocyclohexanes, tetrachlorodibenzo-p-dioxin (TCDD) and related compounds, cadmium and lead. In addition, many SSL haulouts and rookeries are located near other hazards including radioactivity, solvents, ordnance and chemical weapon dumps... Shrimp larvae exposed to DDT have DNA damage: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrievedb=PubMedlist_uids=12568452dopt=Abstract In vitro DDT exposure damages or induces apoptosis (cell death) in neural clone cells: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrievedb=PubMedlist_uids=12523960dopt=Abstract Yes, it would indeed be nice if someone
Re: Michael Crichton is Evil and Must be Destroyed (was: Scouted: Environmentalism is Evil and Must Be Destroyed)
At 03:52 AM 12/21/2003, you wrote: At 02:37 AM 12/20/03, Deborah Harrell wrote: snip Yes, it would indeed be nice if someone could find an alternative which was nearly (90%+?) as effective as DDT at killing the insects which spread disease to humans while being much safer (10% as toxic?) as DDT, and also be cheap enough that the people living in some of the areas where diseases like malaria and yellow fever are endemic can afford it. FWIW, is it possible that much of the problem with chemicals such as DDT getting into the system where it is not wanted and causes problems is due to overuse, on the principle if a little is good, a lot is better? -- Ronn! Except, there have been just as many studies showing that DDT is not dangerous when used normally. Most of the negative studies have been with doses that exceed by magnitudes the levels found in nature. Bald eagles and other bird populations were declined before DDT was introduced, yet it became the boogyman. Kevin T. - VRWC Flame on (joking) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Farscape mini series...
Woo hoo! Not much information here from the IMDB, but it must be a reality since it is listed. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0387736/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Formality Re: Outlandish but exceedingly fun.
At 12:37 PM 12/18/03, Julia Thompson wrote: Travis Edmunds wrote: From: Ronn!Blankenship [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Outlandish but exceedingly fun. Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 00:21:04 -0600 -- Ronn! :) who seldom hears Mr. Blankenship except from students or from people who are trying to sell him something . . . lol Well I figured Ronn was a little too informal. Also figured a Beserker would be right up your alley seeing as how it's old school sci-fi. As for me trying to sell you something...wanna buy my marble collection? -Travis trying to lose his marbles Edmunds. Well, we tend toward the informal here, and it's actually Ronn!, not Ronn. :) (Took me awhile to get that, myself.) While Greg Bear got it right the first time . . . In general, look how folks refer to themselves and how other people refer to them, and take that as your lead for what to call someone. Julia and you *really* don't have to call me Mrs. Thompson here Has anybody _ever_ called you Mrs. Thompson here? -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
ADMIN and ALL THE LIST: Google search of Brin-L archives
Just thought everyone might like to know: I had reason¹ to search Google for my name this morning, and most of the over 5,000 results it returned appear to be references to messages on Brin-L. _ ¹Not simple egotism: I was looking for a page someone else had turned up when he did a search to find something negative about me. -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
SCOUTED: The Skeptical Environmentalist
http://www.canada.com/national/nationalpost/financialpost/story.html?id=c97efa83-5f7a-48f5-a1b4-b6b966fa9c26 Enjoy full access to this nationalpost.com story during our trial period. After January 24th, 2004, complete access will be limited to registered 6-day National Post print subscribers. Science wins Terence Corcoran Financial Post Friday, December 19, 2003 It's been a rough year for environmental extremists. As the Kyoto Accord slips into a coma, 2003 could even mark the beginning of the end of the greatest world experiment, the attempt to push science and politics into a big centrifuge to create a system for global governance. The collapse of Kyoto is a world-scale event. A microcosm of the shifting links between politics and science is the much smaller breaking story of Bjrn Lomborg. Earlier this year, when a Danish government agency declared Mr. Lomborg, author of The Skeptical Environmentalist, a dishonest scientist, the Big Green Left rejoiced. For two years, environmental activists had sought to discredit Mr. Lomborg, whose brilliant book valiantly demolished much of the junk science and fabricated alarmism that drives the global environmental movement. Mr. Lomborg was especially effective in dismissing Kyoto as an over-costly attempt to fix a climate issue that he considered not anywhere near the most important problem facing the world. The attacks on Mr. Lomborg were vicious, personal and extreme, and appeared in some of the most respected science publications: Nature, Science and Scientific American. The final blow came when a bureaucratic sub-agency within the Danish Ministry of Science, Technology and Innovation -- bearing the Orwellian name Danish Committees on Scientific Dishonesty -- issued a report last January. It said Mr. Lomborg had committed acts of scientific dishonesty in The Skeptical Environmentalist. The enthusiasm for this conclusion was widespread. A former editor of Nature said Mr. Lomborg had veered well across the line that divides controversial -- if competent -- science from unrepentant incompetence. The president of the American Association for the Advancement of Science said this is a just outcome that ought to bring his credibility to a halt. Well, it hasn't. What came to a halt this week, in fact, is the Danish committees finding against Mr. Lomborg In a new report, the Danish Ministry of Science repudiated the findings. All the dishonesty, apparently, is inside the committees. Among other things, the government said that in attacking Mr. Lomborg the committee had not documented where [Mr. Lomborg] has allegedly been biased in his choice of date and in his argumentation. It said that the committees actual conclusion was that there was no scientific dishonesty found, but the conclusion was distorted. It accused the committees of using emotive language. (See below. Readers interested in the details can go to www.imv.dk/Default.asp?ID=233.) The real issue here is the politicization of the process to discredit Mr. Lomborg, who is also head of the Danish Institute for Environmental Assessment. Rather than answer Mr. Lomborg's findings and conclusions through argument, debate and fact, his scientific and political opponents went for the political jugular. They smeared and criticized his work, aiming to discredit him rather than engage him. Perhaps they knew too well that the deliberate alarmism that is the official strategy in the political arena cannot, in the end, stand up to the scientific reality that Mr. Lomborg defended so brilliantly in his book. - - - WHY THE LOMBORG DECISION WAS OVERTURNED: Excerpts from the Institute for Miljvurdering Web site. The Danish Ministry of Science, Technology and Innovation has today repudiated findings by the Danish Committees on Scientific Dishonesty (DCSD) that Bjrn Lomborg's book The Skeptical Environmentalist was objectively dishonest or clearly contrary to the standards of good scientific practice. The Ministry, which is responsible for the DCSD, has today released a critical assessment of the committees' Jan. 6 ruling. The Ministry finds that the DCSD judgment was not backed up by documentation, and was completely void of argumentation for the claims of dishonesty and lack of good scientific practice. The Ministry characterizes the DCSD's treatment of the case as dissatisfactory, deserving criticism and emotional and points out a number of significant errors. The DCSD's verdict has consequently been remitted. Bjrn Lomborg, director of the Denmark's Environmental Assessment Institute (EAI), today expressed his satisfaction with the ruling. It has been almost two years since the beginning of the DCSD case against my book, Mr. Lomborg said. It has been hard, but I am happy that we now have confirmation that freedom of speech extends to environmental debate. Now that this distraction is behind us, we can concentrate our efforts on matters of importance -
SCOUTED: Why are we still there?
It is time to take a serious look at our involvement there. Every day there are news reports about more deaths. Every night on the TV are photos of death and destruction. Why are we still there? The land is too large to secure all of it. The bad people causing this damage can roam anywhere, and we can't possibly police the whole place. Why are we still there? We occupied this land, which we had to take by force, but it causes us nothing but trouble. Why are we still there? Their government is unstable, and in the process of changing. Why are we still there? Refugees are fleeing by the thousands, driven from their homes. Why are we still there? It will cost billions to rebuild, which we can't afford. Why are we still there? There are more than 1000 religious sects. We can't even secure the borders. Why are we still there? And to repeat. Every day we hear of more Americans killed in this dangerous land. It is clear! We must abandon California . . . ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Scouted: Environmentalism is Evil and Must Be Destroyed
- Original Message - From: Ronn!Blankenship [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2003 2:36 AM Subject: Re: Scouted: Environmentalism is Evil and Must Be Destroyed At 04:43 AM 12/20/03, Deborah Harrell wrote: --- Doug Pensinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Maybe second-hand smoke isn't as dangerous as professed, but I am sure as hell happy I don't have to breathe it anymore. Anecdotaly, I got bronchitis *every time* I was exposed to 2nd-hand tobacco smoke for more than 3 hours straight (as at a bar, or driving in a car with a smoker -- I avoid such exposure religiously now). ^^^ Pun intended? It takes a lot less time than that for me to become ill from it. Even being in a room where people have been smoking can do it. *Note: Not a defense of smoking* [You may now return to the discussion which is already in progress] Do any of you who get ill (Not sarcastic quote marks, I use them to mark the difference between actual sickness and the kind of illness I am positing) around tobacco smoke get ill around other types of smoke? How about on the freeway or on downtown streets? If not, I suggest that this kind of illness might be for the most part psychosomatic. You never used to hear people, with any regularity, make these claims before, say, 1980 (date pulled out of hat). I had bronchitis as a child and smoke *never* caused an attack with me the way it did with a kid down the street who had asthma. (For me it was always cold air in the evening) When I was a kid almost all the adults I knew smoked (indeed, smoking was much more prevalent in those days) yet the health problems associated with tobacco smoke are on the rise. It makes me wonder if Tobacco is only a secondary causative. * When someone says smoke makes them ill, I assume it is the same kind of ill one might feel after eating maggots, grubs, or termites. Bugs that are nutritious and by some accounts tasty, yet to westerners they are yuck yuck yuck. Now I'm not suggesting that everyone should suddenly begin to enjoy the smell of tobacco smoke, but I am suggesting that there is an element of psychology in the anti-smoking campaign that exaggerates the negative effects of tobacco in the minds of many. * This has been on my mind lately because I have begun to notice smokers who complain about *other peoples smoke*. The irony is perverse to me. xponent The Power Of Memes Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Formality Re: Outlandish but exceedingly fun.
- Original Message - From: Ronn!Blankenship [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2003 10:02 AM Subject: Re: Formality Re: Outlandish but exceedingly fun. At 12:37 PM 12/18/03, Julia Thompson wrote: Travis Edmunds wrote: From: Ronn!Blankenship [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Outlandish but exceedingly fun. Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 00:21:04 -0600 -- Ronn! :) who seldom hears Mr. Blankenship except from students or from people who are trying to sell him something . . . lol Well I figured Ronn was a little too informal. Also figured a Beserker would be right up your alley seeing as how it's old school sci-fi. As for me trying to sell you something...wanna buy my marble collection? -Travis trying to lose his marbles Edmunds. Well, we tend toward the informal here, and it's actually Ronn!, not Ronn. :) (Took me awhile to get that, myself.) While Greg Bear got it right the first time . . . In general, look how folks refer to themselves and how other people refer to them, and take that as your lead for what to call someone. Julia and you *really* don't have to call me Mrs. Thompson here Has anybody _ever_ called you Mrs. Thompson here? Well.there was the time the guy with the bowler and cane popped his head into her upstairs bedroom window, just after Julia destroyed an android sent to kidnap her, and said Mrs. ThompsonYou're needed! But that was a while back. xponent The Power Of Pop Culture Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Scouted: Environmentalism is Evil and Must Be Destroyed
At 11:28 AM 12/21/03, Robert Seeberger wrote: - Original Message - From: Ronn!Blankenship [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2003 2:36 AM Subject: Re: Scouted: Environmentalism is Evil and Must Be Destroyed At 04:43 AM 12/20/03, Deborah Harrell wrote: --- Doug Pensinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Maybe second-hand smoke isn't as dangerous as professed, but I am sure as hell happy I don't have to breathe it anymore. Anecdotaly, I got bronchitis *every time* I was exposed to 2nd-hand tobacco smoke for more than 3 hours straight (as at a bar, or driving in a car with a smoker -- I avoid such exposure religiously now). ^^^ Pun intended? It takes a lot less time than that for me to become ill from it. Even being in a room where people have been smoking can do it. *Note: Not a defense of smoking* [You may now return to the discussion which is already in progress] Do any of you who get ill (Not sarcastic quote marks, I use them to mark the difference between actual sickness and the kind of illness I am positing) around tobacco smoke get ill around other types of smoke? Yes. I had asthma as a child, though I eventually outgrew it. I still have allergies to various inhaled irritants. There have been numerous occasions when I went into a room and my nose and sinuses start running, my eyes start itching, swell, turn red, tear up, and close to the point I just about can't see at all, etc., and only then when I look for the cause do I discover that someone is or has been smoking in the room. The same thing happens _some_ cats, rabbits, and other furry animals: if I handled such an animal, I would get the above symptoms, plus itchy hives on my face and neck, and would have to take my allergy medication, then take a hot bath and put on clean clothes. Fortunately, I have gotten less sensitive to furMidnight was on my lap when I started typing this replythough sometimes I still get a bit of irritation when I play with some cats (no obvious pattern as to whether they are mostly indoor or outdoor, long-haired or short-haired, etc.) Sometimes I have had a similar reaction when going into a fabric store. Some types of pollen and dust cause me misery as well. Other things do bother me as well, although it does seem that, like the furry animals, I have gotten less sensitive to some of them as I have gotten older. -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Slavery in Florida.....Now!
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/content/auto/epaper/editions/sunday/news_f35e42e03786009e004f.html http://tinyurl.com/2b487 The U.S. Justice Department has begun to investigate a new case of slavery in Florida involving a group of undocumented Mexican farmworkers who say they were forcibly detained and threatened with violence by labor contractors. The facts of the case were first made public in an article in The Palm Beach Post Dec. 7, part of the newspaper's recent series, Modern-Day Slavery. In that article, a 28-year-old Mexican man said that on more than one occasion in late 2002, he and other migrant tomato pickers were locked inside a trailer in the town of Wimauma, in Hillsborough County, by a family of farm labor contractors who claimed the workers owed them money. Those alleged debts were smuggling fees the workers incurred while being transported clandestinely into the U.S. from Mexico. The man, who used the alias Jose Moreno, claimed he and the other laborers had to work off those debts before they could change jobs, were chained in the trailer at times and threatened with violence if they tried to leave. Such actions violate anti-slavery laws. According to sources close to the case, two Justice Department attorneys flew from Washington to Tampa Monday. They, plus two FBI agents, met with Moreno that day at the Beth-El Mission, a religious facility in Wimauma. The meeting lasted five hours, said one source who was at the mission during the meeting. He (Moreno) said that they asked him about everything that was in the article The meeting went well. Looking for corroboration One of the attorneys was identified as Susan French, who has been active in previous cases of slavery and indentured servitude in Florida. Federal courts have convicted several Florida labor contractors in such cases during the past six years. The latest trial was in 2002 when two contractors were sentenced to 12 years and another to 10 years for an incident in the central Florida town of Lake Placid. French, reached by telephone, refused to comment on the Wimauma case. The other attorney was not identified. But one of the sources said Moreno had offered to help the Justice Department find some of the other young men locked up with him, which is essential to the case. Moreno told The Post at least 10 others were victimized at the same time as he was. The men have since dispersed; some may still be in the U.S. working, and others may have returned to Mexico. Moreno, according to the source, told the attorneys that one of the men was a distant cousin of his and that he would try to locate him through other family members. He said he also knew the hometown of a third alleged victim, which might make it possible to find that individual. Moreno returned to Mexico last week to visit his family but is expected back after New Year's. According to the source, in order to facilitate his cooperation in the case, the Justice Department attorneys had Moreno sign two immigration forms: a Form 102, which will allow him to receive temporary permission to enter the U.S. legally, and a Form 765, which will allow him to work here legally when he returns. Such provisions are often made so that potential witnesses will be available to prosecutors. Moreno told The Post that, in early October 2002, he was smuggled through the Sonora Desert into Arizona by a man who, along with several of his brothers, operates as both a people-moving coyote and farm labor contractor. Moreno said he and others brought to the U.S. with him were promised tomato picking work in and around Wimauma, work that paid well and would allow them to rapidly pay off hundreds of dollars in smuggling fees. But he said the work was sparse and scarcely paid during the first weeks after they arrived in Florida. He said the contractors, afraid the workers would try to escape, began to guard them at all times and, on some occasions when no guard was available, locked them in a trailer that was secured with a thick chain, a padlock and windows that were nailed so that no one could get out. Moreno said he and others complained but the brothers threatened them with violence. Moreno says he was never struck, but his cousin, Gustavo, fought with the brothers over lack of pay and sustained a broken bone in his arm or hand. Men denied church visit On a Sunday in December last year, an elder from the nearby Good Samaritan Mission, a Christian church, arrived at the trailer to invite some of the men to services, but he was denied permission to take them. Moreno, who insisted on his right to attend church, was eventually allowed to go, but he was the only one. That same week, the youth pastor from the church went to investigate and said he found the young men locked in the trailer. He and the church elder told their stories to The Post, and the newspaper tracked down Moreno, who by then was working in Ohio. He confirmed what the two churchmen had said. Referring
Re: SCOUTED: Why are we still there?
Ronn!Blankenship wrote: It is time to take a serious look at our involvement there. rest snipped Cite? Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Scouted: Environmentalism is Evil and Must Be Destroyed
Robert Seeberger wrote: - Original Message - From: Ronn!Blankenship [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2003 2:36 AM Subject: Re: Scouted: Environmentalism is Evil and Must Be Destroyed At 04:43 AM 12/20/03, Deborah Harrell wrote: --- Doug Pensinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Maybe second-hand smoke isn't as dangerous as professed, but I am sure as hell happy I don't have to breathe it anymore. Anecdotaly, I got bronchitis *every time* I was exposed to 2nd-hand tobacco smoke for more than 3 hours straight (as at a bar, or driving in a car with a smoker -- I avoid such exposure religiously now). ^^^ Pun intended? It takes a lot less time than that for me to become ill from it. Even being in a room where people have been smoking can do it. *Note: Not a defense of smoking* [You may now return to the discussion which is already in progress] Do any of you who get ill (Not sarcastic quote marks, I use them to mark the difference between actual sickness and the kind of illness I am positing) around tobacco smoke get ill around other types of smoke? How about on the freeway or on downtown streets? Some other kinds of smoke, yes. Getting behind some vehicles ends up being less than pleasant for me. And cigarettes are worse than pipe tobacco for me, and certain *brands* of cigarettes are worse than others. I can hang around people smoking Camels a *lot* longer than I can hang around people smoking Marlboros. (Try 20-30 minutes as opposed to about 15 seconds.) I'm wondering if my personal problems with secondhand smoke are not the tobacco, but the @#$% additives. Given that there's a significant difference in how much smoke of one brand I can handle as opposed to smoke of another brand, I'm guessing that in *my* case, that is where the problem is. (And I have had some serious problems around cigarette smoke -- in the days when smoking was permitted in planes, I asked for a seat in non-smoking, got seated in the very last row of non-smoking, and I don't remember much between the time I started coughing and some point where I was in another seat a few rows forward of where I'd been originally seated -- thank goodness I was travelling with someone and the flight attendants were quick to help him. But usually there's enough air volume to dissipate stuff before it gets to that point with me.) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Formality Re: Outlandish but exceedingly fun.
Ronn!Blankenship wrote: At 12:37 PM 12/18/03, Julia Thompson wrote: Julia and you *really* don't have to call me Mrs. Thompson here Has anybody _ever_ called you Mrs. Thompson here? No, but there's a first time for everything. :) Plus which, *you* had already gotten Mr. Blankenship in the thread, I figured I ought to act pre-emptively. Julia p.s. just read Rob's post on the subject, and his is a lot funnier than mine... ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: ADMIN and ALL THE LIST: Google search of Brin-L archives
In a message dated 12/21/2003 9:06:46 AM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Just thought everyone might like to know: I had reason¹ to search Google for my name this morning, and most of the over 5,000 results it returned appear to be references to messages on Brin-L. I knew Brin-L was on google when I got a personal reply from the mowtore cickle wryder here in twosawn that got laasewed for illleaglee righding his buyk in the dry ribber bed. Debbi got an email as well. William Taylor Anti google search spelling. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: SCOUTED: Why are we still there?
In a message dated 12/21/2003 10:22:03 AM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: We must abandon California . . Damn, I'm getting used to Ronn. I got it right by the second line. Vilyehm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Scouted: Environmentalism is Evil and Must Be Destroyed
- Original Message - From: Ronn!Blankenship [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2003 11:47 AM Subject: Re: Scouted: Environmentalism is Evil and Must Be Destroyed At 11:28 AM 12/21/03, Robert Seeberger wrote: *Note: Not a defense of smoking* [You may now return to the discussion which is already in progress] Do any of you who get ill (Not sarcastic quote marks, I use them to mark the difference between actual sickness and the kind of illness I am positing) around tobacco smoke get ill around other types of smoke? Yes. I had asthma as a child, though I eventually outgrew it. I still have allergies to various inhaled irritants. There have been numerous occasions when I went into a room and my nose and sinuses start running, my eyes start itching, swell, turn red, tear up, and close to the point I just about can't see at all, etc., and only then when I look for the cause do I discover that someone is or has been smoking in the room. The same thing happens _some_ cats, rabbits, and other furry animals: if I handled such an animal, I would get the above symptoms, plus itchy hives on my face and neck, and would have to take my allergy medication, then take a hot bath and put on clean clothes. Fortunately, I have gotten less sensitive to fur-Midnight was on my lap when I started typing this reply-though sometimes I still get a bit of irritation when I play with some cats (no obvious pattern as to whether they are mostly indoor or outdoor, long-haired or short-haired, etc.) Sometimes I have had a similar reaction when going into a fabric store. Some types of pollen and dust cause me misery as well. Other things do bother me as well, although it does seem that, like the furry animals, I have gotten less sensitive to some of them as I have gotten older. ___ Two of my younger brothers had serious allergies. And one of them seemed to be allergic to everything. I used to suffer seasonally from hay fever so bad that my face would swell and I had terrible headaches. The funny thing is, when I started smoking that all ceased. I never get bad allergies anymore. I suppose the smoke is keeping my system distracted.G xponent Weird Science Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Fwd: CNN Breaking News
Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge expected to raise the U.S. security level at 1:30 p.m. ET news conference and discuss concerns about continued al Qaeda threats, official tells CNN. (c)2003. Cable News Network, LP, LLLP. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Filtering
I'm filtering once again. I have lots of things to do to prepare for Christmas, so I don't have the time to participate. Additionally, with the increasing posts re: environmentalism, my mind is going in directions that I don't want it to go. I should have known that my requesting that topics I feel strongly about not be brought up would only increase the number of posts on those topics. Oh, well. See you in a few (days, weeks, I don't know it depends on when I'm not so busy and when I'm feeling better). Michael Harney - who regrets that he will miss the answer to the riddle, but can always look it up on the archives later. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Formality Re: Outlandish but exceedingly fun.
- Original Message - From: Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2003 12:02 PM Subject: Re: Formality Re: Outlandish but exceedingly fun. Julia p.s. just read Rob's post on the subject, and his is a lot funnier than mine... LOL And I was a bit worried that no one would get the reference. G xponent Cue The Theme Music Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Scouted: Environmentalism is Evil and Must Be Destroyed
At 12:12 PM 12/21/03, Robert Seeberger wrote: - Original Message - From: Ronn!Blankenship [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2003 11:47 AM Subject: Re: Scouted: Environmentalism is Evil and Must Be Destroyed At 11:28 AM 12/21/03, Robert Seeberger wrote: *Note: Not a defense of smoking* [You may now return to the discussion which is already in progress] Do any of you who get ill (Not sarcastic quote marks, I use them to mark the difference between actual sickness and the kind of illness I am positing) around tobacco smoke get ill around other types of smoke? Yes. I had asthma as a child, though I eventually outgrew it. I still have allergies to various inhaled irritants. There have been numerous occasions when I went into a room and my nose and sinuses start running, my eyes start itching, swell, turn red, tear up, and close to the point I just about can't see at all, etc., and only then when I look for the cause do I discover that someone is or has been smoking in the room. The same thing happens _some_ cats, rabbits, and other furry animals: if I handled such an animal, I would get the above symptoms, plus itchy hives on my face and neck, and would have to take my allergy medication, then take a hot bath and put on clean clothes. Fortunately, I have gotten less sensitive to fur-Midnight was on my lap when I started typing this reply-though sometimes I still get a bit of irritation when I play with some cats (no obvious pattern as to whether they are mostly indoor or outdoor, long-haired or short-haired, etc.) Sometimes I have had a similar reaction when going into a fabric store. Some types of pollen and dust cause me misery as well. Other things do bother me as well, although it does seem that, like the furry animals, I have gotten less sensitive to some of them as I have gotten older. ___ Two of my younger brothers had serious allergies. And one of them seemed to be allergic to everything. When I had the scratch test as a child, just about everything produced a giant red welt. I used to suffer seasonally from hay fever so bad that my face would swell and I had terrible headaches. The funny thing is, when I started smoking that all ceased. I never get bad allergies anymore. I suppose the smoke is keeping my system distracted.G I don't think I want to try it. And FWIW, like Julia, different types of smoke do cause different levels of reaction. Like her, pipe smoke doesn't bother me as much as cigarette smoke. And I suppose it is indeed possible that different brands of cigarettes do cause different levels of irritation: generally when those symptoms start, all I can think about is getting out of there to some fresh air, not asking the smoker(s) what brand they are smoking . . . especially because sometimes¹ when you tell someone that their smoke is making you ill, their response is to take a big draw on the cigarette and then blow that smoke directly in your face . . . _ ¹Not always. But sometimes. -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: CNN Breaking News
- Original Message - From: Ronn!Blankenship [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Brin-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2003 12:10 PM Subject: Fwd: CNN Breaking News Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge expected to raise the U.S. security level at 1:30 p.m. ET news conference and discuss concerns about continued al Qaeda threats, official tells CNN. Yeah http://apnews.myway.com/article/20031221/D7VITS9O0.html Here we go again. xponent Orange Crush Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Formality Re: Outlandish but exceedingly fun.
At 12:22 PM 12/21/03, Robert Seeberger wrote: - Original Message - From: Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2003 12:02 PM Subject: Re: Formality Re: Outlandish but exceedingly fun. Julia p.s. just read Rob's post on the subject, and his is a lot funnier than mine... LOL And I was a bit worried that no one would get the reference. G Why? Did you think it lacked a-peel? -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
SF Blackout
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20031221/D7VIRKI00.html Crews were restoring power to thousands of homes and businesses early Sunday following a blackout that left a third of the city without electricity on one of the busiest days of the holiday season. The power outage started just before 6 p.m. Saturday when a fire broke out at a major Pacific Gas Electric Co. substation. About 120,000 customers lost power, including parts of Mission, North Beach, Chinatown and downtown San Francisco, PGE officials said. The outage forced early evacuations at theaters and shopping centers, restaurants closed early, and street lights stopped working, causing traffic problems throughout the city. Officials expected to have power fully restored late Sunday morning, said PGE spokesman Jonathan Franks. About 46,000 customers were still without power at dawn. Engineers had restored power late Saturday to about half of the affected customers, but those customers were plunged back into darkness when workers discovered the fire had not been fully contained and the substation had to be shut down again. The cause of the fire was under investigation, Franks said. There's no indication that it was vandalism or sabotage. As far as the exact cause, we just don't know yet, he said. xponent Not Significant, Not Unexpected Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Better not mess with Clark
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/printstory.hts/nation/2312399 Moments after praising his opponents in the Democratic presidential race as worthy running mates, Wesley Clark said, in no uncertain terms, how he would respond if they or anyone else criticized his patriotism or military record. I'll beat the s--- out of them, Clark told a questioner as he walked through the crowd after a town hall meeting Saturday. I hope that's not on television, he added. It was, live, on C-SPAN. The campaign's traveling press secretary, Jamal Simmons, was with Clark at the time. If anyone tries to question Wes Clark's character, integrity or his commitment to this country or its security, they're going to be in the biggest fight they've ever had, Simmons said. xponent The Redneck/Shitkicker Ethic Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Filtering
At 12:20 PM 12/21/03, Michael Harney wrote: I'm filtering once again. I have lots of things to do to prepare for Christmas, so I don't have the time to participate. Additionally, with the increasing posts re: environmentalism, my mind is going in directions that I don't want it to go. I should have known that my requesting that topics I feel strongly about not be brought up would only increase the number of posts on those topics. I'm sorry, Michael. I know I am the one who posted the articles which started the current discussion. I didn't mean to upset you. I thought they might be of interest to some here. What does the rest of the list think? Should we avoid environmental topics entirely from now on, or what? I sure don't to offend anyone or cause anyone to leave the list. -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: SF Blackout
When I saw the subject line, I was wondering who had ordered a blackout of science fiction . . . At 12:28 PM 12/21/03, Robert Seeberger wrote: http://apnews.myway.com/article/20031221/D7VIRKI00.html Crews were restoring power to thousands of homes and businesses early Sunday following a blackout that left a third of the city without electricity on one of the busiest days of the holiday season. The power outage started just before 6 p.m. Saturday when a fire broke out at a major Pacific Gas Electric Co. substation. About 120,000 customers lost power, including parts of Mission, North Beach, Chinatown and downtown San Francisco, PGE officials said. The outage forced early evacuations at theaters and shopping centers, restaurants closed early, and street lights stopped working, causing traffic problems throughout the city. Officials expected to have power fully restored late Sunday morning, said PGE spokesman Jonathan Franks. About 46,000 customers were still without power at dawn. Engineers had restored power late Saturday to about half of the affected customers, but those customers were plunged back into darkness when workers discovered the fire had not been fully contained and the substation had to be shut down again. The cause of the fire was under investigation, Franks said. There's no indication that it was vandalism or sabotage. As far as the exact cause, we just don't know yet, he said. xponent Not Significant, Not Unexpected Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Fw: Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow
This looks absolutely awesome. rob - Original Message - From: Adrian Hon [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2003 8:07 AM Subject: Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow Has anyone else seen the trailer for this movie? If not, check it out now - http://www.apple.com/trailers/paramount/ skycaptainandtheworldoftomorrow/ Giant robots blasting death-rays, ornithopthers flying around, propellor planes zipping in and out, and all in a 30s art-deco steampunk style! Even better, it seems like it may actually have a good story. Yes, it does have Angelina Jolie in it, but I can forgive that. Adrian GSV And ignore the Stargate music ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Formality Re: Outlandish but exceedingly fun.
- Original Message - From: Ronn!Blankenship [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2003 12:25 PM Subject: Re: Formality Re: Outlandish but exceedingly fun. At 12:22 PM 12/21/03, Robert Seeberger wrote: - Original Message - From: Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2003 12:02 PM Subject: Re: Formality Re: Outlandish but exceedingly fun. Julia p.s. just read Rob's post on the subject, and his is a lot funnier than mine... LOL And I was a bit worried that no one would get the reference. G Why? Did you think it lacked a-peel? Certainly! But I can stand in inSteed. G xponent Avengence Is Mine Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Filtering
- Original Message - From: Ronn!Blankenship [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2003 12:34 PM Subject: Re: Filtering At 12:20 PM 12/21/03, Michael Harney wrote: I'm filtering once again. I have lots of things to do to prepare for Christmas, so I don't have the time to participate. Additionally, with the increasing posts re: environmentalism, my mind is going in directions that I don't want it to go. I should have known that my requesting that topics I feel strongly about not be brought up would only increase the number of posts on those topics. I'm sorry, Michael. I know I am the one who posted the articles which started the current discussion. I didn't mean to upset you. I thought they might be of interest to some here. What does the rest of the list think? Should we avoid environmental topics entirely from now on, or what? I sure don't to offend anyone or cause anyone to leave the list. No. With all respect to Michael and his sensitivity to various issues, I think it is the responsibility of the reader to do his/her own censoring. We are all adults here and we should be grown up enough to exert a bit of self discipline. I think Michael is a perfect example and I applaud him for handling these issues in the manner he has. You knowits OK to blow up or blow off some steam sometimes. We are all friends here, and friends should make some allowances for individual peculiarities, especially when people are known to be making an effort towards honest discourse and self-moderation. In that sense I think we have very little reason to let ourselves be uptight in regards to controversial subject matter. xponent Self Support Systems Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: SCOUTED: Why are we still there?
From: Ronn!Blankenship [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Brin-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: SCOUTED: Why are we still there? Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 11:23:39 -0600 It is time to take a serious look at our involvement there. Every day there are news reports about more deaths. Every night on the TV are photos of death and destruction. Why are we still there? The land is too large to secure all of it. The bad people causing this damage can roam anywhere, and we can't possibly police the whole place. Why are we still there? We occupied this land, which we had to take by force, but it causes us nothing but trouble. Why are we still there? Their government is unstable, and in the process of changing. Why are we still there? Refugees are fleeing by the thousands, driven from their homes. Why are we still there? It will cost billions to rebuild, which we can't afford. Why are we still there? There are more than 1000 religious sects. We can't even secure the borders. Why are we still there? And to repeat. Every day we hear of more Americans killed in this dangerous land. It is clear! We must abandon California . . . lol I really like that. -Travis who likes neat little things like that Edmunds _ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/bcommpgmarket=en-caRU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Formality Re: Outlandish but exceedingly fun.
From: Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Formality Re: Outlandish but exceedingly fun. Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 12:02:59 -0600 Ronn!Blankenship wrote: Has anybody _ever_ called you Mrs. Thompson here? No, but there's a first time for everything. :) Plus which, *you* had already gotten Mr. Blankenship in the thread, I figured I ought to act pre-emptively. Julia A pre-emptive strike against formality...now that has possibilities.lol -Travis dadaism anybody? Edmunds _ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Scouted: Environmentalism is Evil and Must Be Destroyed
- Original Message - From: Ronn!Blankenship [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2003 12:23 PM Subject: Re: Scouted: Environmentalism is Evil and Must Be Destroyed At 12:12 PM 12/21/03, Robert Seeberger wrote: I used to suffer seasonally from hay fever so bad that my face would swell and I had terrible headaches. The funny thing is, when I started smoking that all ceased. I never get bad allergies anymore. I suppose the smoke is keeping my system distracted.G I don't think I want to try it. LOL Not something I'd recommend, but I do find it an oddity. I wonder if what I experienced is very common at all? And FWIW, like Julia, different types of smoke do cause different levels of reaction. Like her, pipe smoke doesn't bother me as much as cigarette smoke. And I suppose it is indeed possible that different brands of cigarettes do cause different levels of irritation: generally when those symptoms start, all I can think about is getting out of there to some fresh air, not asking the smoker(s) what brand they are smoking That is perfectly understandable. I *know* some people have allergic reactions to tobacco. I accept it as factual. I just wonder that the growing prevalence of seemingly similar attitudes is not so much a symptom of the growth of allergies across the population as it is the spread of a powerful meme. In either case, something has changed greatly over 40 years or so. . . . especially because sometimes¹ when you tell someone that their smoke is making you ill, their response is to take a big draw on the cigarette and then blow that smoke directly in your face . . . That is just plain crappy. There is no excuse for flaunting a disrespect for others in such a blatant manner. One does not have to like it, that their liberties are moderated for the sake of another's liberty, but that is what is necessary to preserve liberty in the main. xponent Limits Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Filtering
From: Ronn!Blankenship [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Filtering Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 12:34:57 -0600 What does the rest of the list think? Should we avoid environmental topics entirely from now on, or what? I sure don't to offend anyone or cause anyone to leave the list. -- Ronn! :) Assuming it's a sincere question, as I'm not certain whether or not you jest, let me just say that no topic should be avoided, omitted, ostracized, black-listed etc... As db himself says: Come explore one of the most active and intelligent internet discussion groups of all time -- the famed Brin-L list, where cutting edge issues get taken on by truly open minds. Hence, if we truly have open minds, we should tackle anything. If we don't, then it would show a certain level of closed-mindedness in and of itself. -Travis the whole jest/just bit was quite intentional Edmunds _ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/bcommpgmarket=en-caRU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Filtering
From: Robert Seeberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Filtering Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 13:00:31 -0600 No. With all respect to Michael and his sensitivity to various issues, I think it is the responsibility of the reader to do his/her own censoring. We are all adults here and we should be grown up enough to exert a bit of self discipline. I think Michael is a perfect example and I applaud him for handling these issues in the manner he has. You knowits OK to blow up or blow off some steam sometimes. We are all friends here, and friends should make some allowances for individual peculiarities, especially when people are known to be making an effort towards honest discourse and self-moderation. In that sense I think we have very little reason to let ourselves be uptight in regards to controversial subject matter. Well put. -Travis _ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/bcommpgmarket=en-caRU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: SF Blackout
In a message dated 12/21/2003 11:27:22 AM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: SF Blackout Oh... NOT Science Fiction. Ok. That's just normal for California. (Ask Ronn.) William Taylor ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Scouted: Environmentalism is Evil and Must Be Destroyed
Ronn!Blankenship wrote: And FWIW, like Julia, different types of smoke do cause different levels of reaction. Like her, pipe smoke doesn't bother me as much as cigarette smoke. And I suppose it is indeed possible that different brands of cigarettes do cause different levels of irritation: generally when those symptoms start, all I can think about is getting out of there to some fresh air, not asking the smoker(s) what brand they are smoking . . . especially because sometimes¹ when you tell someone that their smoke is making you ill, their response is to take a big draw on the cigarette and then blow that smoke directly in your face . . . _ ¹Not always. But sometimes. How rude! I know about brand differences because a) I got into the habit of looking at the pack as soon as it was pulled out, and then noting the smoke *after* I got the brand name (and I could get really good at identifying Marlboros from 20 feet away at one point!), and b) the Camels were smoked by co-workers and in that case I noticed it was less of a problem *after* they'd lit up, and they were nice enough not to be obnoxious with their smoke, but just answer the question Which brand is that you're smoking? Of course, in the case of the co-workers who smoked Camels, I was in charge of payroll, so they didn't want to piss me off. :) Julia but that doesn't explain why Ian wasn't obnoxious, unless maybe he just wasn't inclined to be obnoxious in that manner (he was certainly obnoxious to me in other, more easily handled ways) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Scouted: Environmentalism is Evil and Must Be Destroyed
At 12:28 PM 12/21/2003, you wrote: - Original Message - From: Ronn!Blankenship [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2003 2:36 AM Subject: Re: Scouted: Environmentalism is Evil and Must Be Destroyed It takes a lot less time than that for me to become ill from it. Even being in a room where people have been smoking can do it. *Note: Not a defense of smoking* [You may now return to the discussion which is already in progress] Do any of you who get ill (Not sarcastic quote marks, I use them to mark the difference between actual sickness and the kind of illness I am positing) around tobacco smoke get ill around other types of smoke? rob I have a reaction to certain chemicals. My liver was damaged when I was a kid.* When I was unemployed I contracted with a placement agency. My first job was with a company that made inks. I had to make samples and run various tests. I loved the job, the owner had a nice daughter who was my age and very smart, but by the end of week three I was coughing and felt awful. The owner even said he was going to hire me full time but I had to quit. Around paint, gasoline, perfume and similar I have bad reactions.* Cigs can annoy me. People who sit them in an ashtray and let them burn down to the filter are the worst. Being around a campfire when you get a face full of smoke, no normal person can handle that. But I've been a bartender, our camp has an open fireplace so I can be in the environment and not get sick. Many times (like today) I cannot believe how bad my clothes smell the next day after being in a bar. But I don't have a reaction like I do around chemicals. Smell is a strong sense and tied into a lot of memories and emotions. I would agree that some people (no one here of course!) are only reacting to the idea of smoke, not having an actual physical reaction. *I cannot remember now if I reacted as badly to perfume before I was hurt as after. Perfume was the first thing I noticed. I only get sick when it's a heavy does. I can pump gasoline, get it on my hands. But just a month ago my boss was siphoning gas out of his truck, and my stomach turned over quickly. I didn't know he was doing it, the smell came into the store and I was sick. Kevin T. - VRWC back to the bars, go san fran! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Fw: Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow
The temp score they're using for the trailer is the Stargate SG-1 theme... Tom Beck www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Filtering
At 12:34 PM 12/21/2003 -0600 Ronn!Blankenship wrote: What does the rest of the list think? Should we avoid environmental topics entirely from now on, or what? I sure don't to offend anyone or cause anyone to leave the list. Full Disclosure:I have seen neither Michael's requests to avaoid a certain subject area, nor the posts that have tackled this subject area. My only knowledge of the situation are from the posts with this subject title. Anyhow, with all due respect to Michael, my answer is no.This List is for full consideration of all the various issues facing human civilization. Obviously there is room for some discretion in the immediate wake of a personal tragedy by a list member but ultimately the List should always return to form and purpose. JDG ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
christianism is evil, why it must be eradicated
I read a note in a br newspaper yesterday, and it basically said something like this: hey, folks, you think the USA is a christian country, but it's not; in fact, christians have been persecuted with violence, with the g*vernment approval And then he listed what he thought was happening. Since the USA listmembers don't seem to say these things, I guess he is wrong. He mentioned things like: * public schools forbid kids to wear christian symbols, including carrying a bible to school * public schools punish kids that pray or proselityse. * public schools suspend and fire teachers that profess a Christian faith * it's ok to claim anti-christian slogans in front of churches, like bring in the lions! * a student that mentions anything anti-islamic is forced to spend hours in reeducating classes, where he must study and recite the Quram Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: christianism is evil, why it must be eradicated
Alberto Monteiro wrote: I read a note in a br newspaper yesterday, and it basically said something like this: hey, folks, you think the USA is a christian country, but it's not; in fact, christians have been persecuted with violence, with the g*vernment approval And then he listed what he thought was happening. Since the USA listmembers don't seem to say these things, I guess he is wrong. He mentioned things like: * public schools forbid kids to wear christian symbols, including carrying a bible to school * public schools punish kids that pray or proselityse. * public schools suspend and fire teachers that profess a Christian faith * it's ok to claim anti-christian slogans in front of churches, like bring in the lions! * a student that mentions anything anti-islamic is forced to spend hours in reeducating classes, where he must study and recite the Quram I think it varies on a state-by-state basis. If you told me this was happening in California, I'd just want enough info so I could verify the specific instances. If you told me this was happening in Texas, my first reaction would be disbelief (except maybe in the case of proselytization or leading others in prayer). Also, within a state, there could be variation between cities or school districts. And the sorts of things mentioned above would be more likely in urban, rather than rural, areas, I think. (I have heard of one case, I think it was in Mississippi, where a Jewish kid was told not to wear his Star of David necklace because they thought it was a gang symbol. But that's so-called Christians being horribly ignorant.) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
A sad, sad, day for the Sci-Fi Channel
As if their incredibly bad taste in programming isn't enough, on the Friday after Christmas, the Sci-Fi Channel will be doing an all day Tremors marathon - every episode in order, and the movies. It's almost painful. Gary ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Notes on Uplift
Naturally, since I stopped publishing the Encyclopedia, I have had a burst of creativity with Uplift Universe created topics. One topic leads to another. In the course of thinking about the Tothtoon, the question arises of how uplift, in a political and demographic sense works. The first questions that come to mind are for the interval in question how many O-2 habitable planets are there, how many of them are currently leased for habitation, and how many uplifted main-sequence O-2 species are competing for those planets. At one point I suggested that there might be 10,000 to 12,000 uplifted species, but now I think this might be a bit low. (See: http://www.geocities.com/allianceforprogress/encyclopedia/gray/grymtrb1.html ) I also think that the encyclopediest or writer working in the Uplift Universe should assume that the number of available habitats is growing slowly, the total biomass of sapient O-2 species is growing slightly faster than the available habitat--despite the best efforts of the Migration Institute, and the number of uplifted species is growing faster than the increase in population of individuals. Nevertheless, the rate of increase in the number of uplifted species is still pretty low. We are led to believe that uplift is pretty rare. Some causes for this scarcity might be natural. The implication is that it is just very rare to find a new species suitable for uplift. But the level of Galactic technology is very high. If they let themselves, Galactics could uplift insects. The critical causes of uplift scarcity must be artificial. For some reason, each ur species can be the subject of no more than one uplift project. Second, even though it damages no ecosystem, potential ur populations living on fallow planets cannot be uplifted. Most important, the Uplift Institute sets an arbitrary threshold for how promising a candidate population must be before it can be adopted as the root-stock for an uplift project. Then there is the question of how many clients each mature species needs to uplift to achieve replacement. Even in the best of circumstances some patrons will not want to uplift clients and some clients will become extinct before reaching maturity. The replacement rate must be just over one client per mature citizen species. So for each mature citizen species the GUI needs to award something like 1.1 clients. There are several ways that clients might be distributed among patrons. First the allotment could be random. If a species finds a potential client, then it can uplift it. Rich species can buy potential clients if they can find anyone willing to sell. (This is a good role-playing model since it results in type of adventure seed: find the client.) Even in other types of distribution systems randomness could play a part. For example, explorers might discover lots of potential clients but the GUI is reluctant to issue more than one permit per patron. In this case potential isn't rare and mature species are likely to be very selective about picking an ur population. In another scenario the GUI forces very successful explorers to sell surplus claims. Distribution of clients could be fairly equitable. In this case nearly every species who wants a client gets one. However, being allowed to uplift a second client is a rare privilege and only the most powerful patrons get permission to uplift three or more clients. In this scenario there is a lot of resentment for the Human clan *because they are so wealthy!* Galactics feel about Humans the way others feel about Kuwait--they are rich without having to earn their wealth. In a slightly less equitable system of distribution most would-be patrons uplift one client, a significant minority will never uplift any client, and a few patrons have two or more clients. From a writers perspective this can make for moral subtlety --is the Human resentment of the Galactic order justified? With moderate inequality the plurality of citizen species uplift only one client, the next most common category will never uplift clients, there is nothing remarkable about having two or three clients even though this is an unusual level of wealth. More successful patrons often designate heir-apparents. In a situation of heavy inequality uplift is dominated by powerful clans. Maybe half of all citizen species will never get a client, another quarter consider themselves fortunate to uplift a single client, and the last quarter uplift two or more clients. Powerful patron lines dominate oligarchal Galactic politics. Lesser lines usually die out in two or three generations. They are replaced by less favored clients of the great patron lines. In a situation of extreme inequality Galactic civilization takes on a feudal quality. Great Patrons almost always designate a lucky client as their primary heir. Junior clan members may get to uplift one or two clients. These
Re: christianism is evil, why it must be eradicated
On Sunday 2003-12-21 16:38, Alberto Monteiro wrote: I read a note in a br newspaper yesterday, and it basically said something like this: hey, folks, you think the USA is a christian country, but it's not; in fact, christians have been persecuted with violence, with the g*vernment approval And then he listed what he thought was happening. Since the USA listmembers don't seem to say these things, I guess he is wrong. He mentioned things like: He's not so much wrong as (probably) in a lunatic fringe of ultra-conservative evangelical christians. Government school systems in the US are intentionally decentralized. School districts (in most states) tend to be local affairs. In the Greater Phoenix area we must have over a dozen individual districts (polities with their own elections, budgets, and policies) for grade schools and half that number of districts for secondary schools. There are more school districts than municipalities. * public schools forbid kids to wear christian symbols, including carrying a bible to school This would probably be unconstitutional. Minors do not have complete rights to freedom of speech--especially at school--but a Bible wouldn't be obscene or objectionable. No doubt it has happened, but when it occurs it is an aberation. * public schools punish kids that pray or proselityse. There is a difference between younger and older children. Children CAN pray. There might be restrictions, mostly their would not be allowed to interfere with the education of others, and maybe of themselves. (Muslims might be expected to perform obligatory prayers between classes, for example. Evangelical Christians might need to pray quietly so as not to disturb others.) PUBLIC prayers in istructional settings are out. Proselityzing is problematic. It tends to be permitted at secondary schools so long as it doesnt interfere with instruction. Schools CANNOT endorse prosyletizing or any prayer. This tends to piss some conservatives off. They don't like some logical extensions of the no establishment clause. * public schools suspend and fire teachers that profess a Christian faith They cant. That would violate the Constitution. This also means that a teacher is limited about overt actions they take based on that faith, they cannot try to convert kids, force students to pray, insist God exists (though they could say that they personally believe God or gods exists), and they might be compelled to teach evolution--though in practice a teacher can teach evolution and try to convince his or her students evolution is bunk, and some do. * it's ok to claim anti-christian slogans in front of churches, like bring in the lions! Yep. That is protected speech. You cannot incite a riot or a crime, so long as you don't advocate criminal activity you can picket churches and slander religion. * a student that mentions anything anti-islamic is forced to spend hours in reeducating classes, where he must study and recite the Quram Schools tend to discourage hate speech. (Remeber minors, especially pre-teens, have limited free-speech protection, and they have *less* protection when at school.) Virulent anti-Islamic statements at school or worse, slurs directed at actual people are likely to result in some sort of sensitivity training. This is indoctrination, no matter what supporters might say. In that sort of environment the trainee WILL have to study Islam, and depending on the program might actually have to study and/or memorize verses from the Quran. NOTE that the intent would not be conversion (that would be unconstitional). The hope is that the trainee will be less suceptible to hateful ideas and have an attitude more suited to living and working peacfully and productively in a multi-racial and multi-ethnic country. Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: A sad, sad, day for the Sci-Fi Channel
As if their incredibly bad taste in programming isn't enough, on the Friday after Christmas, the Sci-Fi Channel will be doing an all day Tremors marathon - every episode in order, and the movies. It's almost painful. I dunno, the first movie is very funny. Never saw any of the other iterations, though... Tom Beck www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Week 16 NFL Picks
John is 7-7 for games already played so far this weekend, 6-5 for games played so far today, which *is* better than the 1-2 of yesterday, but not as good as I'd hoped for him. I have mixed feelings about the 49ers beating the Eagles. That's about all I'm going to say about the games that have been played today. Don't know how much of the evening game I'll see, or if I'll see the end of it, but I'll be rooting for Indianapolis, and not just to help bolster John's record for the weekend. :) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Scouted: House Bans Patents on Human Beings
Not sure if anyone out there disagrees with this law, but if so, I 'd be interested in hearing from you. JDG http://www.lifenews.com/bio175.html Pro-life groups say a patent is a government-conferred property right and human beings shouldn't be considered property. The provision would ban patents for genetically engineered human embryos or human beings but would not prohibit patents on tissues, cells or other biological products. ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Scouted: Environmentalism is Evil and Must Be Destroyed
--- Ronn!Blankenship [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Deborah Harrell wrote: --- Doug Pensinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Maybe second-hand smoke isn't as dangerous as professed, but I am sure as hell happy I don't have to breathe it anymore. Anecdotaly, I got bronchitis *every time* I was exposed to 2nd-hand tobacco smoke for more than 3 hours straight (as at a bar, or driving in a car with a smoker -- I avoid such exposure religiously now). Pun intended? But of course! ;) It takes a lot less time than that for me to become ill from it. Even being in a room where people have been smoking can do it. Ugh...I have a friend with significant asthma who reports that she can get symptoms just from being confined next to (as in on the bus) a heavy smoker. Debbi who *does* occasionally intend a pun, in addition to the various subconscious (sp?) ones and completely-by-accident ones :) __ Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now http://companion.yahoo.com/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Week 16 NFL Picks
At 07:10 PM 12/21/2003 -0600 Julia Thompson wrote: John is 7-7 for games already played so far this weekend, 6-5 for games played so far today, which *is* better than the 1-2 of yesterday, but not as good as I'd hoped for him. I have mixed feelings about the 49ers beating the Eagles. That's about all I'm going to say about the games that have been played today. Don't know how much of the evening game I'll see, or if I'll see the end of it, but I'll be rooting for Indianapolis, and not just to help bolster John's record for the weekend. :) Now that my Buffalo Bill have embarassed themselves again, I'll be rooting for Indianapolis too, if only because I think that Peyton Manning is both an incredible player and a genuinely nice human being, and nothing would make me happier this year than to have that idiotic myth that Peyton Manning is a choker in big-time games that seems to have permeated so many otherwise intelligent football observers dispelled once and for all this year by the Colts winning the Super Bowl. That and the fact that I can't stand the thought of the super-lucky New England Patriots winning it all again. JDG ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Notes on Uplift
Trent Shipley wrote: The first questions that come to mind are for the interval in question how many O-2 habitable planets are there, how many of them are currently leased for habitation, and how many uplifted main-sequence O-2 species are competing for those planets. At one point I suggested that there might be 10,000 to 12,000 uplifted species, but now I think this might be a bit low. I have done some estimates on this. From data from GURPS Uplift and from Contacting Aliens, I estimate: * about 2 million populated planets at each time * about 10 planets per race * about 200,000 races Most of those species would be doing nothing, except about * 10% being uplifted * 10% in the 100,000-year period of indenture * 10% uplifting a pre-sentient race * 10% being served by an indentured client Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: RIDDLES: Yet another thread for fun.
Travis Edmunds wrote: From: Michael Harney [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: RIDDLES: Yet another thread for fun. Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 08:41:48 -0700 From: Travis Edmunds [EMAIL PROTECTED] Lets play a little game. I'll start things off by throwing a riddle on the table. The first person to correctly answer the riddle has the privilege of posting a riddle of their own. This guy went into the forest one day. Once there he got it, but he couldn't get it. So he left it there and brought it back home. What did he get? This sounds like a patient zero situation. A man goes into a forest, he picks up a virus, but is immune to the virus, so he can only be a carrier. So my answer is a virus that he is immune to. Am I right? Micahel Harney [EMAIL PROTECTED] It is a probable answer to the riddle. However it's not THE answer. I mean if you had asked this particular riddle with a virus in mind as the answer, then a virus would be correct. It's a multi-answerable riddle I suppose. Just keep on guessing what it could be, until you guess correctly. -Travis Hey, that's not fair! The poser must at least give a new piece of information each time they discard a possible answer, otherwise this could go on for a long time... Travis-- Here's a yes/no question: Could your answer to this riddle be produced by someone who lived 500 years ago? ---David Neologisms Maru ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: A sad, sad, day for the Sci-Fi Channel
I dunno, the first movie is very funny. Never saw any of the other iterations, though... Tom Beck Personally I liked the first movie. But that was one of those movies that should have never had a sequel, much less a series. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Notes on Uplift
In a message dated 12/21/2003 6:29:22 PM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I have done some estimates on this. From data from GURPS Uplift and from Contacting Aliens, I estimate: * about 2 million populated planets at each time * about 10 planets per race * about 200,000 races Most of those species would be doing nothing, except about * 10% being uplifted * 10% in the 100,000-year period of indenture * 10% uplifting a pre-sentient race * 10% being served by an indentured client Alberto Monteiro If Earth had ten leased worlds, everyone else, who is older, more important, and more civilized, should have more planets. If they are playing the Uplift-is-political-power game. For no reason other than comic tribute, I gave the Hoon 42 planets. It's probably less. I don't think our good Dr. has run the numbers. It hasn't yet come up in a needed plot situation. ...42 planets and soon they are all going to be sending vacationers to Alvin's bay. William Taylor - Thousands and thousands of uplifted races, and not once do the Progenitors call. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Notes on Uplift
William Taylor wrote: * about 10 planets per race If Earth had ten leased worlds, everyone else, who is older, more important, and more civilized, should have more planets. If they are playing the Uplift-is-political-power game. Earth _is_ a powerful patron, with two clients. If we think that Uplift must be in equilibrium, then _most_ species would have one and only one client. For no reason other than comic tribute, I gave the Hoon 42 planets. It's probably less. I don't think our good Dr. has run the numbers. It hasn't yet come up in a needed plot situation. ...42 planets and soon they are all going to be sending vacationers to Alvin's bay. 42 are too much for the Hoon. They don't even have a client, do they? Maybe you had better expand these 42 planets to the Hoon plus their former patrons the Guthatsa, plus those that uplifted the Guthatsa and those that uplifted those that uplifted the Guthatsa [who should be thinking about retiring]. Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Have a Soulful Solstice :-)
Deborah Harrell wrote: Well, now I must put on my medieval gown and trundle off for a solstice party -- this is my neo-druid friends' shindig, and I'm supposed to add a bit of quasi-partial-well-OK-pretend authenticity... ;) How pathetic is this neopaganism in the Northern Hemisphere! If these things were celebrated here, people would be dressed in _skin_! :-P Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Notes on Uplift
In a message dated 12/21/2003 7:49:08 PM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 42 are too much for the Hoon. They don't even have a client, do they? Everyone forgets the Rousit. Everyone. I tell you they have been left off of more lists than the Hobbits by the Ents. If planets are leased mostly according to patron client status, the Hoon should still have a few more than Earthclan. I was thinking more of 275.000 years vrs just 300 years. Even if they only have 20 planets, because of the nature of their so called natural talents, a goodly percentage of the Hoon live in Kazzkark like settings. A hoonish compound where the accountants count for the entire working population. No matter the exact number, the major if not only export for any Hoon planet will if fact be the Hoon. Now, Alberto, since very few races are as crazy as us'en Earthlings, what is the ratio of living humans to hoon? Everything I'm trying to do by way of numbers, is to make Alvin filthy rich whether or not he really wants to be so. William Taylor ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Notes on Uplift
William Taylor wrote: 42 are too much for the Hoon. They don't even have a client, do they? Everyone forgets the Rousit. Everyone. I tell you they have been left off of more lists than the Hobbits by the Ents. :-) If planets are leased mostly according to patron client status, the Hoon should still have a few more than Earthclan. Ok, but the _average_ should be close to Earthclan's 10 planets. I was thinking more of 275.000 years vrs just 300 years. Wrong thinking. To the Galactics, Earth's Uplift _must_ have began more than 100,000 years ago. Even if they only have 20 planets, because of the nature of their so called natural talents, a goodly percentage of the Hoon live in Kazzkark like settings. A hoonish compound where the accountants count for the entire working population. No matter the exact number, the major if not only export for any Hoon planet will if fact be the Hoon. So maybe there are 42 planets _with_ sizeable Hoon population, but these planets may have other races. This makes more sense. Now, Alberto, since very few races are as crazy as us'en Earthlings, what is the ratio of living humans to hoon? I have no way to guess. I guess there are only a few extra-Earth humans. There shouldn't be enough time to build up a large extra-Earth human population, given that humans aren't motivated to have too many children when they reach a high level of civilization. Everything I'm trying to do by way of numbers, is to make Alvin filthy rich whether or not he really wants to be so. I know :-) Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Filtering
Ronn! wrote: What does the rest of the list think? Should we avoid environmental topics entirely from now on, or what? I sure don't to offend anyone or cause anyone to leave the list. With all due respect, if we stopped talking about everything that makes someone upset, we may as well shut down the list because we wouldn't even be able to discuss the weather. -- Doug GSV All is Brin. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Scouted: Environmentalism is Evil and Must Be Destroyed
From: Robert Seeberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Ronn!Blankenship [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 12:12 PM 12/21/03, Robert Seeberger wrote: I used to suffer seasonally from hay fever so bad that my face would swell and I had terrible headaches. The funny thing is, when I started smoking that all ceased. I never get bad allergies anymore. I suppose the smoke is keeping my system distracted.G I don't think I want to try it. LOL Not something I'd recommend, but I do find it an oddity. I wonder if what I experienced is very common at all? Along similar lines: I went to visit some friends in Charleston a few years back. They lived up against some woods, and had several cats, and my allergies went into overdrive. I felt like total crud the first two days I was there. Then, I went out in their boat, where we travelled down a rather swamp-like stream/river. I thought I was doomed, but not long into the boat trip, my allergies started to clear up, and then they were almost entirely gone for the rest of the week. It was like the massive allergen exposure forced my body to quit complaining and just get over it. _ Have fun customizing MSN Messenger learn how here! http://www.msnmessenger-download.com/tracking/reach_customize ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Scouted: Environmentalism is Evil and Must Be Destroyed
allergies started to clear up, and then they were almost entirely gone for the rest of the week. It was like the massive allergen exposure forced my body to quit complaining and just get over it. I probably read this suggestion on this list, but somewhere I read that if you get unprocessed honey from a local source and eat a tablespoon every day (or something like that) your body becomes immune to the pollen that was used to make the honey. I mentioned this to a coworker and he tried it and was amazed at how much better his allergies were after a few weeks. I have no idea if this really worked or if it was simply the power of suggestion. Gary ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Filtering
Doug Pensinger wrote: Ronn! wrote: What does the rest of the list think? Should we avoid environmental topics entirely from now on, or what? I sure don't to offend anyone or cause anyone to leave the list. With all due respect, if we stopped talking about everything that makes someone upset, we may as well shut down the list because we wouldn't even be able to discuss the weather. You're right. In severe cases, weather can be upsetting, especially to people affected, and people who are close to some of the people affected. Now, if we could limit it to a purely technical discussion of the weather systems, it *might* be OK, but sooner or later, someone's going to throw a sociopolitical statement into the discussion, and then all hell will break loose. That, or a thunderstorm Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Scouted: Environmentalism is Evil and Must Be Destroyed
Gary Nunn wrote: allergies started to clear up, and then they were almost entirely gone for the rest of the week. It was like the massive allergen exposure forced my body to quit complaining and just get over it. I probably read this suggestion on this list, but somewhere I read that if you get unprocessed honey from a local source and eat a tablespoon every day (or something like that) your body becomes immune to the pollen that was used to make the honey. I mentioned this to a coworker and he tried it and was amazed at how much better his allergies were after a few weeks. I have no idea if this really worked or if it was simply the power of suggestion. I've heard the same thing, and had various people swear up and down that it worked for them. What I want to know, though, is what do you do if your body has problems with honey? (I.e., it does unpleasant things to your digestive system) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Kurds say they caught Saddam
http://www.smh.com.au/cgi-bin/common/popupPrintArticle.pl?path=/articles/2003/12/21/1071941612613.html Washington's claims that brilliant US intelligence work led to the capture of Saddam Hussein are being challenged by reports sourced in Iraq's Kurdish media claiming that its militia set the circumstances in which the US merely had to go to a farm identified by the Kurds to bag the fugitive former president. The first media account of the December 13 arrest was aired by a Tehran-based news agency. American forces took Saddam into custody around 8.30pm local time, but sat on the news until 3pm the next day. However, in the early hours of Sunday, a Kurdish language wire service reported explicitly: Saddam Hussein was captured by the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan. A special intelligence unit led by Qusrat Rasul Ali, a high-ranking member of the PUK, found Saddam Hussein in the city of Tikrit, his birthplace. Qusrat's team was accompanied by a group of US soldiers. Further details of the capture will emerge during the day; but the global Kurdish party is about to begin! The head of the PUK, Jalal Talabani, was in the Iranian capital en route to Europe. The Western media in Baghdad were electrified by the Iranian agency's revelation, but as reports of the arrest built, they relied almost exclusively on accounts from US military and intelligence organisations, starting with the words of the US-appointed administrator of Iraq, Paul Bremer: Ladies and gentlemen: we got 'im. US officials said that they had extracted the vital piece of information on Saddam's whereabouts from one of the 20 suspects around 5.30pm on December 13 and had immediately assembled a 600-strong force to surround the farm on which he was captured at al-Dwar, south of Tikrit. Little attention was paid to a line in Pentagon briefings that some of the Kurdish militia might have been in on what was described as a joint operation; or to a statement by Ahmed Chalabi, head of the Iraq National Congress, which said that Qusrat and his PUK forces had provided vital information and more. A Scottish newspaper, the Sunday Herald, quoted from an interview aired on the PUK's al-Hurriyah radio station last Wednesday, in which Adil Murad, a member of the PUK's political bureau, said that the day before Saddam's capture he was tipped off by a PUK general - Thamir al-Sultan - that Saddam would be arrested within the next 72 hours. An unnamed Western intelligence source in the Middle East was quoted in the British Sunday Express yesterday: Saddam was not captured as a result of any American or British intelligence. We knew that someone would eventually take their revenge, it was just a matter of time. There has been no American response to the Kurdish claims. An intriguing question is why Kurdish forces were allowed to join what the US desperately needed to present as an American intelligence success - unless the Kurds had something vital to contribute to the operation so far south of their usual area of activity. A report from the PUK's northern stronghold, Suliymaniah, early last week claimed a vital intelligence breakthrough after a telephone conversation between Qusrat and Saddam's second wife, Samirah. xponent Difference Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
