Re: Myers-Briggs (was: Blog entry with interesting comment)
At 05:10 PM Saturday 5/6/2006, The Fool wrote: [snipped] Fool, I'm just curious. Most of the articles you post are ones claiming that there are problems with this, that, and the other. Can you give us some examples of something concrete (not abstractions like the truth or rational thinking and behavior) that you are _for_? --Ronn! :) Since I was a small boy, two states have been added to our country and two words have been added to the pledge of Allegiance... UNDER GOD. Wouldn't it be a pity if someone said that is a prayer and that would be eliminated from schools too? -- Red Skelton (Someone asked me to change my .sig quote back, so I did.) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Myers-Briggs (was: Blog entry with interesting comment)
Ten or fifteen years ago, I gave Kiersey style Myers-Briggs tests to dozen people I knew. And anecdotal evidince has what value in science? Well, you need not pay any attention to my report. My experience was that when I gave a test to a dozen people, I found that a bit more than half the results matched the categories into which I fit people in other ways. Moreover, since I myself did the experiment and followed the reasoning, I had an internal experience that I found convincing to myself. Guardians of birthdays, holidays and celebrations, Virgo's are generous entertainers. They enjoy and joyfully observe traditions and are liberal in giving, especially where custom prescribes. All else being equal, Virgo's enjoy being in charge. They see problems clearly and delegate easily, work hard and play with zest. Virgo's, bear strong allegiance to rights of seniority. They willingly provide service (which embodies life's meaning) and expect the same from others. vrs Pices's are pensive, analytical folks. They may venture so deeply into thought as to seem detached, and often actually are oblivious to the world around them. Precise about their descriptions, Pices's will often correct others (or be sorely tempted to) if the shade of meaning is a bit off. While annoying to the less concise, this fine discrimination ability gives Pices's so inclined a natural advantage as, for example, grammarians and linguists. Reads like an astrology collumn in the newspaper. Doesn't to me, unless of course, you pay attention to the names (like Pices and Virgo). To me, Forer's text as given in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forer_effect sounds much more like an astrology column. -- Robert J. Chassell [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG Key ID: 004B4AC8 http://www.rattlesnake.com http://www.teak.cc ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Myers-Briggs (was: Blog entry with interesting comment)
If it's science at all, it's a very fluffy kind of science. Ten or fifteen years ago, I gave Kiersey style Myers-Briggs tests to a dozen people I knew. I felt the results were accurate in about 7 of those 12 cases. So I decided it was pretty good for this kind of topic (and no good at all if you seek only 25% error.) What is the probability of 7 out of 12 people each choosing 1 out of 16 randomly? I tend to doubt the Forer effect is highly important for Myers-Briggs, although doubtless, it is somewhat important. (According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forer_effect The Forer effect ... is the observation that individuals will give high accuracy ratings to descriptions of their personality that supposedly are tailored specifically for them, but are in fact vague and general enough to apply to a wide range of people. (The article also gives Forer's text.) Here are the first two paragraphs of 2 of 16 MBTI profiles from http://www.typelogic.com/; they seem to me quite different. When given a choice of which to choose, I doubt an ESFJ would choose to be described as an INTP although he or she might well choose a description closer to his or her temperament. Guardians of birthdays, holidays and celebrations, ESFJs are generous entertainers. They enjoy and joyfully observe traditions and are liberal in giving, especially where custom prescribes. All else being equal, ESFJs enjoy being in charge. They see problems clearly and delegate easily, work hard and play with zest. ESFJs, as do most SJs, bear strong allegiance to rights of seniority. They willingly provide service (which embodies life's meaning) and expect the same from others. vrs INTPs are pensive, analytical folks. They may venture so deeply into thought as to seem detached, and often actually are oblivious to the world around them. Precise about their descriptions, INTPs will often correct others (or be sorely tempted to) if the shade of meaning is a bit off. While annoying to the less concise, this fine discrimination ability gives INTPs so inclined a natural advantage as, for example, grammarians and linguists. -- Robert J. Chassell [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG Key ID: 004B4AC8 http://www.rattlesnake.com http://www.teak.cc ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Myers-Briggs (was: Blog entry with interesting comment)
From: Robert J. Chassell [EMAIL PROTECTED] If it's science at all, it's a very fluffy kind of science. Ten or fifteen years ago, I gave Kiersey style Myers-Briggs tests to a dozen people I knew. I felt the results were accurate in about 7 of those 12 cases. So I decided it was pretty good for this kind of topic (and no good at all if you seek only 25% error.) What is the probability of 7 out of 12 people each choosing 1 out of 16 randomly? And anecdotal evidince has what value in science? I tend to doubt the Forer effect is highly important for Myers-Briggs, although doubtless, it is somewhat important. (According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forer_effect The Forer effect ... is the observation that individuals will give high accuracy ratings to descriptions of their personality that supposedly are tailored specifically for them, but are in fact vague and general enough to apply to a wide range of people. (The article also gives Forer's text.) Here are the first two paragraphs of 2 of 16 MBTI profiles from http://www.typelogic.com/; they seem to me quite different. When given a choice of which to choose, I doubt an ESFJ would choose to be described as an INTP although he or she might well choose a description closer to his or her temperament. Guardians of birthdays, holidays and celebrations, Virgo's are generous entertainers. They enjoy and joyfully observe traditions and are liberal in giving, especially where custom prescribes. All else being equal, Virgo's enjoy being in charge. They see problems clearly and delegate easily, work hard and play with zest. Virgo's, bear strong allegiance to rights of seniority. They willingly provide service (which embodies life's meaning) and expect the same from others. vrs Pices's are pensive, analytical folks. They may venture so deeply into thought as to seem detached, and often actually are oblivious to the world around them. Precise about their descriptions, Pices's will often correct others (or be sorely tempted to) if the shade of meaning is a bit off. While annoying to the less concise, this fine discrimination ability gives Pices's so inclined a natural advantage as, for example, grammarians and linguists. Reads like an astrology collumn in the newspaper. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Blog entry with interesting comment
On 5/4/06, Horn, John [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All the books are aimed at boys. Both the AS and the ADD books. It seems that AS presents itself differently in girls so that makes it very difficult to pick good books. I think you may be mistaken about this. Many of the ADD books are written by women, many of whom are ADD themselves You Mean I'm not Lazy Stupid or Crazy was written by two women. Lynn Weiss, whose books I also appreciated, appears to be a woman, judging by her photo. This list on Amazon.com -- *ADD experience (by a woman) --* has a bunch of books about ADD, many written by women : http://www.amazon.com/gp/richpub/listmania/fullview/9WZ48993GPB2/104-0155161-9687918?%5Fencoding=UTF8 Nick -- Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Messages: 408-904-7198 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Blog entry with interesting comment
Thanks! http://idiotgrrl.livejournal.com/ From: Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Subject: Re: Blog entry with interesting comment Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 07:00:19 -0700 On 5/4/06, Horn, John [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All the books are aimed at boys. Both the AS and the ADD books. It seems that AS presents itself differently in girls so that makes it very difficult to pick good books. I think you may be mistaken about this. Many of the ADD books are written by women, many of whom are ADD themselves You Mean I'm not Lazy Stupid or Crazy was written by two women. Lynn Weiss, whose books I also appreciated, appears to be a woman, judging by her photo. This list on Amazon.com -- *ADD experience (by a woman) --* has a bunch of books about ADD, many written by women : http://www.amazon.com/gp/richpub/listmania/fullview/9WZ48993GPB2/104-0155161-9687918?%5Fencoding=UTF8 Nick -- Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Messages: 408-904-7198 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Blog entry with interesting comment
I'm combining posts here- PAT MATHEWS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snippage 3) Again in my observation, Aspies come in roughly two flavors: the organized, single-focused, linear mind; and the absent-minded professor/free-spirited idea mill. Inattentive ADD goes with the latter. If you have any use for the Myer-Briggs at all, these map very roughly onto INTJ and INTP respectively. I mention this because books on the Myer-Briggs has a lot of good tips for life which are quite useful even though they're designed for the 'normal' end of the spectrum. Now I'll have to look that stuff back up -- I remember that I'm INFJ, but don't recall all that that means (introvert, intuitive...feeling, judging?) 5) The very first thing I'd do in your shoes is find out her strengths and work from there. Also her obsessions if she has any. Don't let her dismiss them as Oh, that's EASY the way some people do, apparently thinking the only way to make a living is at something you have to work on. Wrong. Then mildly correct her weaknesses through *teaching.* A lot of stuff can be learned, I'm here to tell you. Having a couple of 'traditional learning challenged' students, I've learned to use multiple modalities to get information across: verbal, tactile, visual (which can be highly amusing, to judge by the laughter). Our current schooling system is poorly equipped to deal with these children's learning needs; one thing that would really help is much smaller teacher/student ratios. I have several teacher friends who are very frustrated by knowing *how* to deal with their ADD or ADHD kids, but they haven't got time or resources to do so properly. For example, I'm sorry, I have trouble recognizing even people I know across the room, (takes off glasses and cleans them), would you mind letting me know you're here? winces I simply don't recognize people out of their usual context in my universe, except for long-time friends and co-workers. I explain it as resulting froma closed-head injury, which most folk seem to graciously accept. Julia wrote: Any medication should be prescribed by a doctor with some expertise in the area. A pediatric neurologist would be good, if you're hooked up with one. Amen. There are FPs and pediatricians who have made 'children with learning-difficulties' their unofficial subspecialty by serious self-education, but the number of children placed on psychoactive drugs by unqualified (IMO) docs is staggering. Debbi Skeptical Believer Maru;-) __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Blog entry with interesting comment
On Behalf Of Nick Arnett All the books are aimed at boys. Both the AS and the ADD books. It seems that AS presents itself differently in girls so that makes it very difficult to pick good books. I think you may be mistaken about this. Many of the ADD books are written by women, many of whom are ADD themselves I didn't mean they were all written by men. In the case of the AS books, all of them seem aimed at boys or parent's of boys. Almost all of the examples are of boys: the case studies, the recommendations are aimed at boys. Maybe we just haven't stumbled into the right ones yet. - jmh ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Myers-Briggs (was: Blog entry with interesting comment)
Ok, here are a few sites for those curious: http://www.personalitypathways.com/MBTI_intro.html http://www.personalitypathways.com/type_inventory.html And for the skeptical (I have only skimmed this, as it's time to head out): http://skepdic.com/myersb.html I do have a problem with this site's dismissal of intuitive thinking; from my observations experience in the medical field, a lot of intuition (including my own) is actually based on essentially sub-conscious integration of observations with prior knowledge. It's sort of like thinking without realizing it; it seems almost magical at times because one isn't aware of the processes ongoing, as they occur so swiftly. But without a foundation of education, learned knowledge, and prior experience, 'intuition' is as likely to be wrong as not. From the first site above: INFJ: Seek meaning and connection in ideas, relationships, and material possessions. Want to understand what motivates people and are insightful about others. Conscientious and committed to their firm values. Develop a clear vision about how best to serve the common good. Organized and decisive in implementing their vision. Hmm, pretty good except for that last bit - I am *not* the best-organized person. Feeling: Naturally seek consensus and popular opinions. Unsettled by conflict; have almost a toxic reaction to disharmony. Uh, yep. OTOH, I'm split between the J and P, which makes me feel a little better, not desiring to be known as judgemental...even though in many ways, I am. INFP: Idealistic, loyal to their values and to people who are important to them. Want an external life that is congruent with their values. Curious, quick to see possibilities, can be catalysts for implementing ideas. Seek to understand people and to help them fulfill their potential. Adaptable, flexible, and accepting unless a value is threatened. Debbi Still A Skeptical Believer And Pragmatic Idealist Maru ;-) __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Myers-Briggs (was: Blog entry with interesting comment)
At any rate, you still test out Idealist, and in many ways that's the most important part because it's the central theme of your life. Pat, INTP but unwilling to make up my mind oh, look, a bird! BAD kitties! http://idiotgrrl.livejournal.com/ From: Deborah Harrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com To: brin-l@mccmedia.com Subject: Myers-Briggs (was: Blog entry with interesting comment) Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 11:39:57 -0700 (PDT) Ok, here are a few sites for those curious: http://www.personalitypathways.com/MBTI_intro.html http://www.personalitypathways.com/type_inventory.html And for the skeptical (I have only skimmed this, as it's time to head out): http://skepdic.com/myersb.html I do have a problem with this site's dismissal of intuitive thinking; from my observations experience in the medical field, a lot of intuition (including my own) is actually based on essentially sub-conscious integration of observations with prior knowledge. It's sort of like thinking without realizing it; it seems almost magical at times because one isn't aware of the processes ongoing, as they occur so swiftly. But without a foundation of education, learned knowledge, and prior experience, 'intuition' is as likely to be wrong as not. From the first site above: INFJ: Seek meaning and connection in ideas, relationships, and material possessions. Want to understand what motivates people and are insightful about others. Conscientious and committed to their firm values. Develop a clear vision about how best to serve the common good. Organized and decisive in implementing their vision. Hmm, pretty good except for that last bit - I am *not* the best-organized person. Feeling: Naturally seek consensus and popular opinions. Unsettled by conflict; have almost a toxic reaction to disharmony. Uh, yep. OTOH, I'm split between the J and P, which makes me feel a little better, not desiring to be known as judgemental...even though in many ways, I am. INFP: Idealistic, loyal to their values and to people who are important to them. Want an external life that is congruent with their values. Curious, quick to see possibilities, can be catalysts for implementing ideas. Seek to understand people and to help them fulfill their potential. Adaptable, flexible, and accepting unless a value is threatened. Debbi Still A Skeptical Believer And Pragmatic Idealist Maru ;-) __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Myers-Briggs (was: Blog entry with interesting comment)
On May 5, 2006, at 11:39 AM, Deborah Harrell wrote: OTOH, I'm split between the J and P, which makes me feel a little better, not desiring to be known as judgemental...even though in many ways, I am. Some are confused by the language of MBTI, and find one or the other terms for each of the four dimensions pejorative and the other laudatory. Neither is not intended to be either: no value judgment is made on either end of any of the spectra. For example, Judging does not mean judgmental. It merely refers to a preference for closure as opposed to the preference for open-ended-ness among perceptives. And, of course, each is a spectrum: I doubt that anybody is all extroverted or all introverted (although I am pretty well slammed against the rails on the extroverted side). It's not at all uncommon to find oneself in the middle on one of the axes: I'm about halfway between thinking and feeling -- given some conversations I've had on that subject lately, I'd lay odds that I naturally gravitate towards the feeling end of the scale, but that socialization has skewed me towards thinking. Katherine Benziger (http://www.benziger.org/), whose Benziger Thinking Styles Assessment (BTSA) is not so very different from MTBI, writes about a condition she calls Falsification of Type that leads, she says, to much grief. I would guess that if I'm right about my natural predilection towards feeling vs. socialization towards thinking is valid, I probably exhibit her Falsification of Type. (Of course I would guess is a very iNtuitive thing to say, isn't it?) Dave ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Myers-Briggs (was: Blog entry with interesting comment)
Dave Land wrote: And, of course, each is a spectrum: Because they are spectra there are a number of encoding schemes out there to try to disambiguate those that move or are near the lines, and some psychologists will tell you the categorizations are meaningless without the full test and knowledge specific choices within it. (...and others will tell you taking the test is only every valid once or not at all or only on full moons.) For instance, I sometimes find it useful to use xNTP, because I'm pretty firm as far as the NTP side of the spectrum in every test I've taken and generally in my judgment of the system itself says. The I/E I tend to flip-flop depending on several factors. Another choice would be to use something like I?NTP, as the I is often more dominant, but again, subject to change. -- --Max Battcher-- http://www.worldmaker.net/ I'm gonna win, trust in me / I have come to save this world / and in the end I'll get the grrrl! --Machinae Supremacy, Hero (Promo Track) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Myers-Briggs (was: Blog entry with interesting comment)
On May 5, 2006, at 2:01 PM, Max Battcher wrote: Dave Land wrote: And, of course, each is a spectrum: Because they are spectra there are a number of encoding schemes out there to try to disambiguate those that move or are near the lines, and some psychologists will tell you the categorizations are meaningless without the full test and knowledge specific choices within it. (...and others will tell you taking the test is only every valid once or not at all or only on full moons.) For instance, I sometimes find it useful to use xNTP, because I'm pretty firm as far as the NTP side of the spectrum in every test I've taken and generally in my judgment of the system itself says. The I/E I tend to flip-flop depending on several factors. Another choice would be to use something like I?NTP, as the I is often more dominant, but again, subject to change. Sure. I've taken to writing (on those rare occasions that it needs to be written -- I'm not a type-freak) ENfP, because I am only weakly on the F end of that particular spectrum. As the Fool points out in his inimitable style, this stuff is not mathematics. If it's science at all, it's a very fluffy kind of science. Human behavior and the motivations behind it are notoriously difficult to quantify, frustrating most attempts to do so. Dave Romans 7:15-15 Land ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Blog entry with interesting comment
On Behalf Of PAT MATHEWS This is going to be a long post of the dump the load variety, so anyone not interested can either delete or skim, but here goes: Wow. Thanks very much (and everyone else who responded as well)!! Much more than I expected. 1) It's not the end of the world. I know it definitely isn't the end of the world. It helps a lot to finally know what is going on and have some answers to (previously) bewildering behavior. And strategies for coping and dealing with it. One of the most wonderful things is to finally have an answer for the other parents who kept saying Why don't you just spank her/discipline more/etc? We knew instinctively that that was absolutely the wrong thing to do. Now we know why. I wouldn't advise her to become, say, an accountant She's wanted to be a kindergarten teacher since she was in, well, kindergarten. She's kinda obsessed with it. ;-) 2) In my observation, the ADD books have a few coping tricks worth mentioning, but 90% of their focus is on the sort of hyperactive boys who are really, really good at grabbing opportunities and running with them; and they all push for medication so hard you'd think they were sponsored by Big Pharma All the books are aimed at boys. Both the AS and the ADD books. It seems that AS presents itself differently in girls so that makes it very difficult to pick good books. Speaking of medicine, she's been on an anti-depressant for a bit which seems to be making a big difference. She just started a stimulant a week ago. Too early to see if it has had any effect at this point. 3) Again in my observation, Aspies come in roughly two flavors: the organized, single-focused, linear mind; and the absent-minded professor/free-spirited idea mill. Inattentive ADD goes with the latter. If you have any use for the Myer-Briggs at all, these map very roughly onto INTJ and INTP respectively. I mention this because books on the Myer-Briggs (a system which is totally non-judgmental and IMO the only system that does NOT make judgments) has a lot of good tips for life, love, acreers, and living with your... in this case, I'd say INTP --- which are quite useful even though they're designed for the 'normal' end of the spectrum. The second one of those is definitely my daughter. Wait a minute, *I'm INTP!! Hmmm My wife and I are very into Myers-Briggs. I'm not sure what my daughter is. I don't think it is either one of those, though. I'll have to ask my wife. 7) Workarounds for inattentive ADD include one that's really useful and really, really cheap. You get a hard-blacked flip-top pad down at Walgreens and the associated input device. Make a To Do list of whatever seems to be needed. Wild Ideas and For the Future on a back page. Obvious but let's not lose track on the front page. If need be, Have done Today. Sounds anal, I know, but there are times it;s really worthwhile to have a little list. I'll have to keep that one in mind. Hope this helps, Yes, it helps a lot! - jmh ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Blog entry with interesting comment
From: Horn, John [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wow. Thanks very much (and everyone else who responded as well)!! Much more than I expected. Glad to be of help. 1) It's not the end of the world. I know it definitely isn't the end of the world. It helps a lot to finally know what is going on and have some answers to (previously) bewildering behavior. And strategies for coping and dealing with it. One of the most wonderful things is to finally have an answer for the other parents who kept saying Why don't you just spank her/discipline more/etc? We knew instinctively that that was absolutely the wrong thing to do. Now we know why. Wish my dad had had your instincts! I wouldn't advise her to become, say, an accountant She's wanted to be a kindergarten teacher since she was in, well, kindergarten. She's kinda obsessed with it. ;-) Well, then - go for it! One of my close friends, Jay Bainbridge, is a painter who teaches preschool - at a local synagogue. (Did they mind that he's not Jewish? No, but he gets the High Holy Days off anyway.) . It seems that AS presents itself differently in girls so that makes it very difficult to pick good books. Autobiographies. Gorilla Nation by Dawn Price-Hughes (or is it Hughes-Price?) Love her observation that academic politics makes a lot more sense when you treat the department heads and senior professors as if they were silverbacks. Pretending to be Normal by Liane Holliday Willey. I was grabbed by the title because it was my autobiography in two words. Excellent book; interesting person. And ... DO watch BONES on TV. Speaking of medicine, she's been on an anti-depressant for a bit which seems to be making a big difference. She just started a stimulant a week ago. Too early to see if it has had any effect at this point. I've been on caffeine for 52 years. Self-medication seems to be part of it. 3) Again in my observation, Aspies come in roughly two flavors: the organized, single-focused, linear mind; and the absent-minded professor/free-spirited idea mill. Inattentive ADD goes with the latter. If you have any use for the Myer-Briggs at all, these map very roughly onto INTJ and INTP respectively. I mention this because books on the Myer-Briggs (a system which is totally non-judgmental and IMO the only system that does NOT make judgments) has a lot of good tips for life, love, acreers, and living with your... in this case, I'd say INTP --- which are quite useful even though they're designed for the 'normal' end of the spectrum. The second one of those is definitely my daughter. Wait a minute, *I'm INTP!! Hmmm My wife and I are very into Myers-Briggs. I'm not sure what my daughter is. I don't think it is either one of those, though. I'll have to ask my wife. YEs, the kindergarten teacher interest isn't the usual INTP thing, is it? However, whatever she is, go for it. I'll have to keep that one in mind. Hope this helps, Yes, it helps a lot! - jmh ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Blog entry with interesting comment
An essay criticizing skeptics is torn apart here: http://www.autismstreet.org/weblog/?p=39 And the first commenter is James Randi. So I just had to share. Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Blog entry with interesting comment
On Behalf Of Julia Thompson An essay criticizing skeptics is torn apart here: http://www.autismstreet.org/weblog/?p=39 And the first commenter is James Randi. So I just had to share. A very interesting article. Even more interesting, for me, was the site itself. My daughter was just diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome and ADHD (inattentive type). I know there are (or were) some on this list with AS or ADHD. Any recommended sites out there for a Mom and Dad struggling to put some order into all this chaos? - jmh ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Blog entry with interesting comment
From: Horn, John [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Subject: RE: Blog entry with interesting comment Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 14:52:34 -0500 On Behalf Of Julia Thompson An essay criticizing skeptics is torn apart here: http://www.autismstreet.org/weblog/?p=39 And the first commenter is James Randi. So I just had to share. A very interesting article. Even more interesting, for me, was the site itself. My daughter was just diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome and ADHD (inattentive type). I know there are (or were) some on this list with AS or ADHD. Any recommended sites out there for a Mom and Dad struggling to put some order into all this chaos? wrongplanet.net ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Blog entry with interesting comment
Horn, John wrote: On Behalf Of Julia Thompson An essay criticizing skeptics is torn apart here: http://www.autismstreet.org/weblog/?p=39 And the first commenter is James Randi. So I just had to share. A very interesting article. Even more interesting, for me, was the site itself. My daughter was just diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome and ADHD (inattentive type). I know there are (or were) some on this list with AS or ADHD. Any recommended sites out there for a Mom and Dad struggling to put some order into all this chaos? - jmh If you're looking for blogs that might be of help, check out http://www.autism-hub.co.uk/ ; I can list the ones I'm a particular fan of, if that would help. The Aspie Dad one might be of particular interest to you; very few entries so far, and just joined Autism Hub, but looks promising. (I'll give it a solid thumbs-up when there are another 10 posts or so, probably, but it's not on my greatest hits list yet. Yet.) If you're on LiveJournal, reading the stuff in the asperger community might be somewhat helpful, every now and again there's a book recommendation. (Posting is open only to members, and unless you're on the spectrum yourself, the mods are going to look very hard at your request to join. I can dig up some of the book recommendations if queried; I can tell you that http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0060934883/ was recommended at some point, anyway, and sometimes books are seriously UN-recommended, which can be useful information, as well.) asd_families might be helpful. The community autism might be helpful, as well. (Just going in and reading a couple months' worth of public posts could help, even if you're not into LJ.) Jannalou who comments on some of the autism hub blogs has her own blog, and that might be a good blog to look at. If you need for me to track down that blog, I can. If I think of anything else later, I'll post it. Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Blog entry with interesting comment
From: Horn, John [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Julia Thompson An essay criticizing skeptics is torn apart here: http://www.autismstreet.org/weblog/?p=39 And the first commenter is James Randi. So I just had to share. A very interesting article. Even more interesting, for me, was the site itself. My daughter was just diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome and ADHD (inattentive type). I know there are (or were) some on this list with AS or ADHD. Any recommended sites out there for a Mom and Dad struggling to put some order into all this chaos? - jmh This is going to be a long post of the dump the load variety, so anyone not interested can either delete or skim, but here goes: 1) It's not the end of the world. I wouldn't advise her to become, say, an accountant (big mistake on my part!) but we're talking one of the two differences known to be associated with a creative upside. (the other being 'being mildly bipolar') 2) In my observation, the ADD books have a few coping tricks worth mentioning, but 90% of their focus is on the sort of hyperactive boys who are really, really good at grabbing opportunities and running with them; and they all push for medication so hard you'd think they were sponsored by Big Pharma. Get them from the library if you have to bother at all. 3) Again in my observation, Aspies come in roughly two flavors: the organized, single-focused, linear mind; and the absent-minded professor/free-spirited idea mill. Inattentive ADD goes with the latter. If you have any use for the Myer-Briggs at all, these map very roughly onto INTJ and INTP respectively. I mention this because books on the Myer-Briggs (a system which is totally non-judgmental and IMO the only system that does NOT make judgments) has a lot of good tips for life, love, acreers, and living with your... in this case, I'd say INTP --- which are quite useful even though they're designed for the 'normal' end of the spectrum. 4) Book: my all-time favorite is Liane Holliday Willey's Pretending to be Normal. And it's Dr. Willey; she has a PhD in, I think, some branch of linguistics. And is happily married with children. But there are others including some fictional characters I find quite likeable, even loveable. (Terry Pratchett's Leonard of Quirm, anyone?) 5) The very first thing I'd do in your shoes is find out her strengths and work from there. Also her obsessions if she has any. Don't let her dismiss them as Oh, that's EASY the way some people do, apparently thinking the only way to make a living is at something you have to work on. Wrong. Then mildly correct her weaknesses through *teaching.* A lot of stuff can be learned, I'm here to tell you. 6) Beware doomsayers (Some on wrongplanet and other nets but also out there among the medpros) who wail It's a Horrible Disability! That must be Cured! With Medication! And once she gets an official Dx, she can Go On Welfare! [EMAIL PROTECTED] 7) Workarounds for inattentive ADD include one that's really useful and really, really cheap. You get a hard-blacked flip-top pad down at Walgreens and the associated input device. Make a To Do list of whatever seems to be needed. Wild Ideas and For the Future on a back page. Obvious but let's not lose track on the front page. If need be, Have done Today. Sounds anal, I know, but there are times it;s really worthwhile to have a little list. Well, enough rambling and babbling. Hope this helps, Pat ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Blog entry with interesting comment: P.S.
Oh, and P.S. there are workaround for a whole bunch of things. One thing I do is tell people up fromt - not a label which gives people the wrong idea or scares them (DO read Elizabeth Moon's Speed of Dark. That poor sucker needed a labelectomy above all!) but that, in context, I have a bit of trouble with whatever it is. For example, I'm sorry, I have trouble recognizing even people I know across the room, (takes off glasses and cleans them), would you mind letting me know you're here? or I'm sorry, certain frequencies go right through my head, it's the way my ears work. I saw the audiologist... Well, you get the idea. http://idiotgrrl.livejournal.com/ From: Horn, John [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Subject: RE: Blog entry with interesting comment Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 14:52:34 -0500 On Behalf Of Julia Thompson An essay criticizing skeptics is torn apart here: http://www.autismstreet.org/weblog/?p=39 And the first commenter is James Randi. So I just had to share. A very interesting article. Even more interesting, for me, was the site itself. My daughter was just diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome and ADHD (inattentive type). I know there are (or were) some on this list with AS or ADHD. Any recommended sites out there for a Mom and Dad struggling to put some order into all this chaos? - jmh ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Blog entry with interesting comment
PAT MATHEWS wrote: From: Horn, John [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Julia Thompson An essay criticizing skeptics is torn apart here: http://www.autismstreet.org/weblog/?p=39 And the first commenter is James Randi. So I just had to share. A very interesting article. Even more interesting, for me, was the site itself. My daughter was just diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome and ADHD (inattentive type). I know there are (or were) some on this list with AS or ADHD. Any recommended sites out there for a Mom and Dad struggling to put some order into all this chaos? - jmh This is going to be a long post of the dump the load variety, so anyone not interested can either delete or skim, but here goes: 1) It's not the end of the world. I wouldn't advise her to become, say, an accountant (big mistake on my part!) but we're talking one of the two differences known to be associated with a creative upside. (the other being 'being mildly bipolar') It is very much not the end of the world; it is the beginning of figuring out what is going to work best for her in her life. 2) In my observation, the ADD books have a few coping tricks worth mentioning, but 90% of their focus is on the sort of hyperactive boys who are really, really good at grabbing opportunities and running with them; and they all push for medication so hard you'd think they were sponsored by Big Pharma. Get them from the library if you have to bother at all. I know relatively little about ADD. Go with what Pat says. :) 3) Again in my observation, Aspies come in roughly two flavors: the organized, single-focused, linear mind; and the absent-minded professor/free-spirited idea mill. Inattentive ADD goes with the latter. If you have any use for the Myer-Briggs at all, these map very roughly onto INTJ and INTP respectively. I mention this because books on the Myer-Briggs (a system which is totally non-judgmental and IMO the only system that does NOT make judgments) has a lot of good tips for life, love, acreers, and living with your... in this case, I'd say INTP --- which are quite useful even though they're designed for the 'normal' end of the spectrum. It's a reasonable generalization, although a few come up as S on the S/N divide, or as F on the F/T divide. I've never seen an aspie declare their MBT as Exxx, though, even the ones who seek more social interaction. :) Generally figuring out what strengths and weaknesses are, which MBTI does for a number of things, is a Good Thing. 4) Book: my all-time favorite is Liane Holliday Willey's Pretending to be Normal. And it's Dr. Willey; she has a PhD in, I think, some branch of linguistics. And is happily married with children. But there are others including some fictional characters I find quite likeable, even loveable. (Terry Pratchett's Leonard of Quirm, anyone?) OK, now I'm REALLY regretting I didn't buy it this morning. Next time I order from amazon. Next time. I may get to borrow it before then. Or I may go back to that bookstore sooner rather than later. 5) The very first thing I'd do in your shoes is find out her strengths and work from there. Also her obsessions if she has any. Don't let her dismiss them as Oh, that's EASY the way some people do, apparently thinking the only way to make a living is at something you have to work on. Wrong. Then mildly correct her weaknesses through *teaching.* A lot of stuff can be learned, I'm here to tell you. And don't dismiss *anything* that anyone makes a career in as a possible career. Oh, and work on figuring out what her specific learning style is -- if you go with that way working on things at home, at least, it will make things a lot easier on her. It will probably be harder on her anyway with the ADHD, even if her easiest method is applied; don't make it harder for her than it has to be. (There was a post very recently on the Processing in Parts blog about this, and someone with ADD contributed some good stuff in a comment.) 6) Beware doomsayers (Some on wrongplanet and other nets but also out there among the medpros) who wail It's a Horrible Disability! That must be Cured! With Medication! And once she gets an official Dx, she can Go On Welfare! [EMAIL PROTECTED] Anyone promising a cure should be shot. Any medication should be prescribed by a doctor with some expertise in the area. A pediatric neurologist would be good, if you're hooked up with one. I would not have my own kid getting brain-targeted meds from anyone but a neurologist. Oh, and http://crazymeds.org, very NSFW for language in spots (including the front page), has good info on meds. (A decent number of them have been used by the people running the site, and the site may be a better source of info on weird side effects than many.) 7) Workarounds for inattentive ADD include one that's really useful and really, really cheap. You get a hard-blacked flip-top pad down at Walgreens and the associated input device.
Re: Blog entry with interesting comment
On May 3, 2006, at 12:52 PM, Horn, John wrote: A very interesting article. Even more interesting, for me, was the site itself. My daughter was just diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome and ADHD (inattentive type). I know there are (or were) some on this list with AS or ADHD. Any recommended sites out there for a Mom and Dad struggling to put some order into all this chaos? I found the ideas of Thom Hartmann very helpful: http://www.thomhartmann.com/home-add.shtml Hartmann is the creator of the Hunter/Farmer metaphor that describes those of us with various shades of ADHD as exhibiting the characteristics of hunters (global [as opposed to narrow] attention, preference for immediate rewards and short-term highly intense efforts, periods of hyperfocus, and so forth), while the majority of society exhibits the characteristics of farmers. He describes it better than I... Hartmann is also apparently a liberal radio commentator. When I was really suffering from the effects of my ADHD (which may have been exacerbated by my brain tumor), I enjoyed the following site, which I found while researching the relationship between ADHD and Myers-Briggs types. NOTICE: This site apparently came under attack from some sort of spyware, so they installed a javascript that almost immediately redirects you to takebacktheweb.com. It's damned annoying, but on my Mac, I can prevent the redirect by immediately and repeatedly pressing the escape key once the page has loaded: http://borntoexplore.org/ Sincerely, Dave Oh look! An Owl! Land ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Blog entry with interesting comment
On May 3, 2006, at 5:26 PM, Dave Land wrote: I found the ideas of Thom Hartmann very helpful: http://www.thomhartmann.com/home-add.shtml http://borntoexplore.org/ On the latter site is a page (not infected with the redirect script) that brings Hartmann's ideas with some others in a very succinct way: http://www.borntoexplore.org/hunter.htm Good stuff, Dave ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Blog entry with interesting comment
Pat Julia 3) Again in my observation, Aspies come in roughly two flavors: the organized, single-focused, linear mind; and the absent-minded professor/free-spirited idea mill. Inattentive ADD goes with the latter. If you have any use for the Myer-Briggs at all, these map very roughly onto INTJ and INTP respectively. I mention this because books on the Myer-Briggs (a system which is totally non-judgmental and IMO the only system that does NOT make judgments) has a lot of good tips for life, love, acreers, and living with your... in this case, I'd say INTP --- which are quite useful even though they're designed for the 'normal' end of the spectrum. Oh, and work on figuring out what her specific learning style is -- if you go with that way working on things at home, at least, it will make things a lot easier on her. It will probably be harder on her anyway with the ADHD, even if her easiest method is applied; don't make it harder for her than it has to be. (There was a post very recently on the Processing in Parts blog about this, and someone with ADD contributed some good stuff in a comment.) Combining both of the above, you may want to try Now, Discover Your Strengths: How to Develop Your Talents and Those of the People You Manage Marcus Buckingham, Donald O. Clifton Based on thousands of leaders from multiple backgrounds, this inventory looks at what your top 5 strengths out of 35 distilled categories. As opposed to Myers-Briggs that implies the opposite of your strengths is your weakness, this profile doesn't imply weaknesses- only things that impede what you want to do are even considered near weaknesses that need to be addressed only if they get in your way. Really neat- there is another earlier book that talks about how an individual Soars with strengths. There is a great beginning that relates strengths to kids in school, a bit unconventional from some of the schooling ideas that I grew up with, but I have to say it makes sense. I haven't looked in a while, but I recall finding some online references for 4MAT learning styles. Some schools are subcontracting special ed programs to Sylvan Learning so it might be worth investigating. Dee- handing in a final, then 2 weeks to catch up on the rest of life ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Blog entry with interesting comment
On 5/3/06, Horn, John [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Syndrome and ADHD (inattentive type). I know there are (or were) some on this list with AS or ADHD. Any recommended sites out there for a Mom and Dad struggling to put some order into all this chaos? There are people here with ADHD... what were we talking about? Oh, yes. Some books... You Mean I'm not Lazy, Stupid or Crazy, anything by Thom Hartmann, ADD and Creativity by Weiss, Change Your Brain, Change Your Life, by Amen. Look, an owl! Nick -- Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Messages: 408-904-7198 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Blog entry with interesting comment
On 5/3/06, Dave Land [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hartmann is also apparently a liberal radio commentator. And a former CompuServe sysop, back in the late '80s when I also was. Nick -- Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Messages: 408-904-7198 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
