Re: Praying for the Poor RE: Christian insanity.
Also, many large companies (Hallmark included) will match donations given by employees. In other words, if I decide to donate $100, Hallmark will donate an additional $100 (various companies place various restrictions on who this money can be donated to). Reggie Bautista Weird, the last two companies I've worked for would match a donation you had up to 1% of your yearly salary. Now I work for the g*vernment. They just had a fund raising drive, I think there are 180k employees. The state doesn't match anything, in fact they have twenty employees to run the state fund. Kevin T. That's the way the fraud starts ;-) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Praying for the Poor RE: Christian insanity.
In a message dated 11/12/2002 7:25:46 PM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: That's the way the fraud starts ;-) Fraud? We have to set up a bipartisan investigation committee with full powers. A few hundred million should get us through the first year of research. William Taylor - Point of order used to mean yelling at the clown face, I said diet Coke! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Praying for the Poor RE: Christian insanity.
On Sun, Nov 10, 2002 at 10:25:45PM -0600, Dan Minette wrote: Yup. If they don't know it, on any level, then no effect has been seen in tests that I would trust. So the prayers don't do anything. Here is the cite you requested. You would not accept this sophistry from others in discussing, for example, nuclear energy. -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Praying for the Poor RE: Christian insanity.
On Sun, Nov 10, 2002 at 10:18:57PM -0600, Dan Minette wrote: problem with that arguement. My arguement is that people can pick up many non-verbal signals about the internal mental states of others. Your arguement appears to be that people can pick up false signals. No, you have completely missed my point. The point is that praying is as negligible as a pebble in your shoe or sucking on a piece of candy in the direct effect that it has on helping homeless people. You would say the same thing if you were discussing something like air-powered cars, but here you have some sort of mental block. Because the question was whether prayer could. I also beg to differ as to whether a nasty or positive attitude towards the other people in the world matters much. But, then we've differed on that for a long time now. I didn't say it doesn't matter much, in general, as you imply here. But I did say that it doesn't have much effect on helping the homeless. Do you really believe that? Do you have experiments showing that people who have friends with pebbles in their shoes recover faster than those who have friends who don't. You are again missing the point. You admitted in another post that if the people don't KNOW they are being prayed for, there is no effect. If you told people that others are intentionally walking around with a pebble in their shoe in order to help them, I bet the results would be the same as the prayer study you cited. By the way, I'm praying that you will return to your normal, healthy scientific state of mind. :-) -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Praying for the Poor RE: Christian insanity.
On Sun, Nov 10, 2002 at 10:25:45PM -0600, Dan Minette wrote: From: Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Query: Of the people for whom others are praying, is there a difference in recovery speed between those who know that people are praying for them and those that don't? Yup. If they don't know it, on any level, then no effect has been seen in tests that I would trust. By the way, what if you TOLD someone people were praying for them, and they really were NOT. That should be the control group for this study. -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Fwd: Praying for the Poor RE: Christian insanity.
In a message dated 11/9/2002 3:21:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In other words: is there any scientific evidence that saying a prayer for a >> poor, homeless person will actually improve that person's situation? If so, >> I would love to see it. If not, well, then praying seems rather useless. Yes. I've seen prayer improve the lives of poor people. I have prayed for my nephew suffering from (probably incurrable) lymphoma. It got me wondering what I was praying for. I don't believe in god (I am an atheist but not a doctrinate aethist). If I were to believe in god it would have to be within the constraints of an orderly universe in which miracles do not occur (things outside of the rules of science; Sun stands still, Moses parts the red sea). Therefore I cannot pray for god to upset the genetics that are the source of my nephew's cancer. So what can I pray (hope) for? Maybe that he is the one in 100 who makes it. Few of us realize that 99% mortality insures 1% survival. But if I pray for my nephew to be the one, I am in effect praying that the other 99 are not. I can pray for the odds to change; that new treatments may help him and many others. But who will make these changes? Not any god directly. Women and men doing the research? I can't answer these questions but still I pray. I do not believe it is hedging my bets (It can't hurt to pray and it doesn't cost anything right?). I am reaching out to one soul and to all of us in general. We all have hopes. To realize this unites us to each other makes us understand what others are going through; I hope and pray Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from rly-xf02.mx.aol.com (rly-xf02.mail.aol.com [172.20.105.226]) by air-xf02.mail.aol.com (v89.12) with ESMTP id MAILINXF22-1109152114; Sat, 09 Nov 2002 15:21:14 -0500 Received: from www.mccmedia.com ([206.204.15.162]) by rly-xf02.mx.aol.com (v89.10) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINXF22-1109152056; Sat, 09 Nov 2002 15:20:56 1900 Received: from www.mccmedia.com (IDENT:mailman@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by www.mccmedia.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gA9KNv508625; Sat, 9 Nov 2002 12:23:58 -0800 Received: from swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by www.mccmedia.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gA9KIK508506 for [EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Sat, 9 Nov 2002 12:18:21 -0800 Received: from dialup-64.157.51.214.dial1.washington1.level3.net ([64.157.51.214] helo=user-uffjsqlpw8) by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18Ac0Z-0004iv-00 for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Sat, 09 Nov 2002 12:15:08 -0800 Message-Id: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 15:14:08 -0500 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: "John D. Giorgis" [EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Praying for the Poor RE: Christian insanity. In-Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> References: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> [EMAIL PROTECTED]> [EMAIL PROTECTED]> [EMAIL PROTECTED]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-BeenThere: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b2 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] List-Id: Discussions of the writings of science fiction/futurist authors David Brin and Gregory Benford. brin-l.mccmedia.com> List-Post: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> List-Subscribe: http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l>, mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?subject=subscribe> List-Unsubscribe: http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l>, mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: http://www.mccmedia.com/pipermail/brin-l> List-Help: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?subject=help> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Errors-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> In other words: is there any scientific evidence that saying a prayer for a >> poor, homeless person will actually improve that person's situation? If so, >> I would love to see it. If not, well, then praying seems rather useless. Yes. I've seen prayer improve the lives of poor people. JDG ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] People everywhere want to say what they think; choose who will govern them; worship as they please; educate their children -- male and female; own property; and enjoy the benefits of their labor. These values of freedom are right and true for every person, in every society -- and the duty of protecting these values against their enemies is the common calling of freedom-loving people across the globe and across the ages. -US National Security Policy, 2002 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Praying for the Poor RE: Christian insanity.
- Original Message - From: Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 12:38 PM Subject: Re: Praying for the Poor RE: Christian insanity. On Mon, Nov 11, 2002 at 12:34:52PM -0600, Dan Minette wrote: My contention is that the unspoken attitude of people affects other people but not cars, neutron, Higgs bosons, etc. Your contention appears to be that it doesn't and that I'm also unscientific to think it is. Once again, you have completely missed the point. That nasty mental block again, I guess. That is NOT my contention, and I stated before that it is not. But, every example you gave had nothing to do with the attitude of one person towards another. You specifically chose random effects, having nothing at all to do with interpresonal relationships. I guess I might have been more prescise: the attitude of one person towards another will have no more effect than a random event, like a pebble in a shoe or sucking on candy. If that isn't your point, what is? Why did you chose random events? Even though I'm careless with spelling and pasting from time to time, I tend to work hard to chose examples that are support my points. I assumed you did too. IMHO, what we are really arguing about is whether people's attitudes matter. I'm not arguing that at all. The examples you cite are inanimate objects. I'll agree that computers, cars, virtual partons, etc. are not affected by our attitude. But, I do think people are. You appear to say that's mere superstition, and I'm opposed to science and logic when I contend this. Dan M. What in the world do you think my contention was? I repeatedly stated that I was considering mundane effects only; that I didn't consider the action of God changing because of the prayer in my analysis, etc. When you state that prayer has an effect, it is just silly to even mention unless you a referring to a direct effect. No, it is not. You made a false statement, I countered it. And, I was very clear in my first post. The exchange was: But it is silly to claim that praying for them will help them. No, it is not. There are reasons why that do not involve God answering prayers by intervening on the behalf of the person praying. Does anyone else think that I was arguing for direct action by God as the way the person is helped? Lord knows, an author's prose may be clear to the author but no one else...so if that isn't clear, I would truely appreciate someone pointing out why. Also, if that is not what you meant by direct action, Erik, I'd appreciate a clarification of what direct action is. So that is what I assumed you meant. Why did you assume it when I specifically excluded it? I pointed out a few of the infinite number of other things that can have an indirect effect just as much as prayer. Was it just coincidence that all of your examples had nothing to do with the attitude of people towards one another, while I specifically adressed that? I could to stochastic analysis of the process to see the probability of that being just random. :-) But, off the top of my head, its not particularly high. It is silly to single out prayer and say it has an effect and not the millions of other things that have such an indirect effect. Again, you trivialize the idea that attitude matters, burying it among a million random variables. So, let me state it real explictly. I think that attitude matters a great deal more than a pebble in a shoe, a piece of candy, or any one of a million random factors. I think we convey our attitude in many different ways. I think we can convey our attitude without always realizing that we are doing it. It is not good science, not even good social science. Really? You are definitely the first person I've ever come across who argued that the concept that attitude matters more than random factors in human relationship is bad science. No hard feelings Erik, but your posts make you appear to me to be, to put in in PC terms interpersonal relationship differently enabled. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Praying for the Poor RE: Christian insanity.
On Mon, Nov 11, 2002 at 05:29:15PM -0600, Dan Minette wrote: But, every example you gave had nothing to do with the attitude of one person towards another. You specifically chose random effects, having nothing at all to do with interpresonal relationships. I guess I might have Wrong. It does have something to do, just not very much. Same as prayer. If that isn't your point, what is? Why did you chose random events? Even though I'm careless with spelling and pasting from time to time, I tend to work hard to chose examples that are support my points. I assumed you did too. I did. They are no more random than prayer. About the same, I judge. Here's another for you: would you claim that we (people with a decent income and standard of living) should all take Prozac or something to help the homeless? That is also roughly equivalent to prayer in how much it would help them. No, it is not. There are reasons why that do not involve God answering prayers by intervening on the behalf of the person praying. Yes, it is. THe reasons are negligible to the point of being silly. Again, you trivialize the idea that attitude matters, burying it among a million random variables. So, let me state it real explictly. I think that attitude matters a great deal more than a pebble in a shoe, a piece of candy, or any one of a million random factors. I think we convey our attitude in many different ways. I think we can convey our attitude without always realizing that we are doing it. If prayer can affect attitude, why can't a pebble in the shoe? Of course it can. Really? You are definitely the first person I've ever come across who argued that the concept that attitude matters more than random factors in human relationship is bad science. No hard feelings Erik, but your posts No, that is not what I am arguing, as I have repeatedly stated. make you appear to me to be, to put in in PC terms interpersonal relationship differently enabled. And your posts make you appear to be brainwashed by religion. -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Praying for the Poor RE: Christian insanity.
I'm trying to picture how praying translates into body language that then has some sort of mental effect on a beggar and I'm just not getting it. I have no problem understanding how prayer or any other form of mental support can help a person make it thorough an illness or tough times, though I don't think it has anything to do with a deity. My problem is picturing how some kind of physical cue would help a person begging on the street. For instance, as I'm passing a man on the street, he asks me for bus fare or gas money. I don't give him anything, but I say a quick prayer for him, smile and look at him sympathetically. I think I'm at least as likely to get flipped off as have any positive effect on his attitude.I have no doubt that it is possible that I am just as likely to have a positive effect if I tell the person to get his shit together and earn his own bus fare. I don't endorse doing the latter, but I can't see where any patronizing body language would be more effective. I think the improbability is amplified when you consider that people begging on the street are probably more likely to lack social skills than the average person and are thus liable to misinterpret body language or miss it altogether. Or for that matter, react to it in an unpredictable manner. Where I _do_ see a prayer as having an effect is on the person doing the praying. Perhaps saying that prayer and thinking about moral principal motivates that person to do some volunteer work and/or donate to a charitable cause. Doug ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Praying for the Poor RE: Christian insanity.
Jeroen wrote: I am sure those of faith believe it will help, but does it *really* help that poor person? In other words: is there any scientific evidence that saying a prayer for a poor, homeless person will actually improve that person's situation? If so, I would love to see it. If not, well, then praying seems rather useless. No, but there have been studies that show prayer is an effective part of the healing process. If prayer is effective in one area, why not try it and see if it works in other areas. Reggie Bautista All part of the scientific process Maru _ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Praying for the Poor RE: Christian insanity.
Erik wrote: I find it amazing to witness the intellectual contortions people will go through to defend their pre-conceived notions about prayer. Yes, it certainly is, Erik. Especially since widely publicized empirical studies have proven the effectiveness of prayer in healthcare. Reggie Bautista _ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Praying for the Poor RE: Christian insanity.
Julia wrote: I was instructed by someone who worked with the poor in a charitable organization to *never* give to someone begging. Most of the poor who really need help aren't going out and asking for money, but the folks who are too unmotivated to find another alternative or blowing too much of what they have on drugs or alcohol are a lot more likely to be begging. Specific people were pointed out as people I should absolutely, under no circumstances give any money to, as it had been demonstrated repeatedly that they wouldn't use it to house, clothe or feed themselves, but would use it to get high. Unless you know the person begging, you don't know if they're going to harm themselves or others with the way they use the money they obtain begging. The best way to help a homeless person is not to hand them cash; it's to point them in the direction of the nearest homeless shelter, and give that homeless shelter some cash. Also, many large companies (Hallmark included) will match donations given by employees. In other words, if I decide to donate $100, Hallmark will donate an additional $100 (various companies place various restrictions on who this money can be donated to). Reggie Bautista _ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Praying for the Poor RE: Christian insanity.
On Sun, Nov 10, 2002 at 02:15:30PM -0600, Reggie Bautista wrote: Yes, it certainly is, Erik. Especially since widely publicized empirical studies have proven the effectiveness of prayer in healthcare. Please cite a credible study that showed that praying for homeless people helped improve their situation. I agree that it is not a good idea in most cases to give them cash. Personally, I prefer to leverage my giving by donating to charities that use the money to improve the general situation long-term as well as the specific instances. But it is silly to claim that praying for them will help them. -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Praying for the Poor RE: Christian insanity.
- Original Message - From: Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 2:27 PM Subject: Re: Praying for the Poor RE: Christian insanity. I agree that it is not a good idea in most cases to give them cash. Personally, I prefer to leverage my giving by donating to charities that use the money to improve the general situation long-term as well as the specific instances. But it is silly to claim that praying for them will help them. No, it is not. There are reasons why that do not involve God answering prayers by intervening on the behalf of the person praying. It is patently obvious to me why. If you think about it Erik, it should also be obvious to you. If it isn't, say so, and I'll give more details. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Praying for the Poor RE: Christian insanity.
At 16:15 10-11-2002 -0500, Erik Reuter wrote: No, it is not. There are reasons why that do not involve God answering prayers by intervening on the behalf of the person praying. It is patently obvious to me why. If you think about it Erik, it should also be obvious to you. If it isn't, say so, and I'll give more details. Baloney. There is no way prayer can directly help anyone. Citing cases where something IN ADDITION to prayer makes a difference does not prove that prayer had a direct effect. If wishing could make it so, the world would be an amazing place. In reality, it is action, effort, and work that accomplishes thing, not wishing or praying. AMEN! Jeroen Money makes the world go round van Baardwijk __ Wonderful-World-of-Brin-L Website: http://www.Brin-L.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Praying for the Poor RE: Christian insanity.
On Sun, Nov 10, 2002 at 03:40:40PM -0600, Dan Minette wrote: But, praying for someone, while doing what you can in a non-obvious manner, has the potential for doing more than just doing things without praying. That has the exact same result as not praying for someone, while doing what you can in a non-obvious manner. Surely you don't think that praying while your HEP experiment is going on will affect the results? Now, given your pattern of trying to foster hostility here, maybe you do. I'd be curious to see the answer. Now, given your pattern of sometimes being scientific, and sometimes ignoring both logic and science because your brain has been washed by religion, maybe you do believe prayer actually does something. I'd be curious to see the answer. -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://erikreuter.com/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Praying for the Poor RE: Christian insanity.
- Original Message - From: Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 4:50 PM Subject: Re: Praying for the Poor RE: Christian insanity. On Sun, Nov 10, 2002 at 03:40:40PM -0600, Dan Minette wrote: But, praying for someone, while doing what you can in a non-obvious manner, has the potential for doing more than just doing things without praying. That has the exact same result as not praying for someone, while doing what you can in a non-obvious manner. Surely you don't think that praying while your HEP experiment is going on will affect the results? Higgs bosons do not react to body language; humans do. Now, given your pattern of trying to foster hostility here, maybe you do. I'd be curious to see the answer. Now, given your pattern of sometimes being scientific, and sometimes ignoring both logic and science because your brain has been washed by religion, maybe you do believe prayer actually does something. I'd be curious to see the answer. Cite on the latter, please. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Praying for the Poor RE: Christian insanity.
On Sun, Nov 10, 2002 at 06:13:09PM -0600, Dan Minette wrote: Higgs bosons do not react to body language; humans do. Body language with praying will have exactly the same result as body language without praying. Now, given your pattern of sometimes being scientific, and sometimes ignoring both logic and science because your brain has been washed by religion, maybe you do believe prayer actually does something. I'd be curious to see the answer. Cite on the latter, please. See above. -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Praying for the Poor RE: Christian insanity.
Erik Reuter wrote: On Sun, Nov 10, 2002 at 06:13:09PM -0600, Dan Minette wrote: Higgs bosons do not react to body language; humans do. Body language with praying will have exactly the same result as body language without praying. I think the point is, prayer may *affect* your body language. If your inclination is to be hostile towards a beggar, but instead you pray or engage in other behavior leading to positive feelings towards the beggar, that will make a difference in your body language. Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Praying for the Poor RE: Christian insanity.
On Sun, Nov 10, 2002 at 06:51:33PM -0600, Julia Thompson wrote: Erik Reuter wrote: On Sun, Nov 10, 2002 at 06:13:09PM -0600, Dan Minette wrote: Higgs bosons do not react to body language; humans do. Body language with praying will have exactly the same result as body language without praying. I think the point is, prayer may *affect* your body language. If your inclination is to be hostile towards a beggar, but instead you pray or engage in other behavior leading to positive feelings towards the beggar, that will make a difference in your body language. Lots of things may *affect* your body language. For example, having a pebble in your shoe. Shall we say that having a pebble in your shoe helps homeless people? -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Praying for the Poor RE: Christian insanity.
On Sun, Nov 10, 2002 at 07:14:29PM -0600, Julia Thompson wrote: No, because the pebble in your shoe will affect your body language negatively. :) I beg to differ. It may make you slow down and stoop down, maybe appearing to be more concerned :) Besides, what if you are gently sucking on a good piece of candy, that can affect your body language. Is eating candy good for the homeless? It's not just body language; it's general attitude. For some people, prayer has a positive effect on their general attitude. And general attitude has an affect on whether you pray. Cause and effect is pretty tenuous here, I think. Why make up such tenuous chains of cause and effect? Why not just say that having a good attitude and pleasant body language could help a homeless person? And even that isn't likely to have a significant effect. If the same effect on general attitude can be achieved without prayer, then that's great. Of course it can. Why the if? If the prayer is part of the process shaping the attitude, though, then in that particular case, prayer does make a difference. Just like the pebble or the candy. -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Praying for the Poor RE: Christian insanity.
- Original Message - From: Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 7:18 PM Subject: Re: Praying for the Poor RE: Christian insanity. On Sun, Nov 10, 2002 at 07:14:29PM -0600, Julia Thompson wrote: No, because the pebble in your shoe will affect your body language negatively. :) I beg to differ. It may make you slow down and stoop down, maybe appearing to be more concerned :) Besides, what if you are gently sucking on a good piece of candy, that can affect your body language. Is eating candy good for the homeless? Let us consider what praying for something in this case. It is communication with God your concerns with a person's needs. I am perfectly willing to allow an atheist to say that its to a non-existant God; I am not relying on the intervention of God to make my arguement. In doing so, one is setting up an internal positive awareness of the other person. Someone could argue that a non-theist who just thought good thoughs about the other person would do the same thing. I'd have no problem with that arguement. My arguement is that people can pick up many non-verbal signals about the internal mental states of others. Your arguement appears to be that people can pick up false signals. They do. But, if the signal is high enough, they will accurately pick up the true signal out of the noise of false signals. IIRC, there are repeated emperical studies that show that people do this. Indeed, one of the well known problems with mail lists is the absence of such non-verbal clues. And general attitude has an affect on whether you pray. Cause and effect is pretty tenuous here, I think. Why make up such tenuous chains of cause and effect? Why not just say that having a good attitude and pleasant body language could help a homeless person? And even that isn't likely to have a significant effect. Because the question was whether prayer could. I also beg to differ as to whether a nasty or positive attitude towards the other people in the world matters much. But, then we've differed on that for a long time now. If the prayer is part of the process shaping the attitude, though, then in that particular case, prayer does make a difference. Just like the pebble or the candy. Do you really believe that? Do you have experiments showing that people who have friends with pebbles in their shoes recover faster than those who have friends who don't. There are studies that show a difference in the recovery rate of people who are ill and who are supported by their community with prayers and those who are not? No, I'm not talking about signs and wonders here, there is a perfectly obvious and mundane explanation for this. And AFAIK the experiments have been reported in serious journals and are accepted as valid in the medical community. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Praying for the Poor RE: Christian insanity.
Dan Minette wrote: Do you really believe that? Do you have experiments showing that people who have friends with pebbles in their shoes recover faster than those who have friends who don't. There are studies that show a difference in the recovery rate of people who are ill and who are supported by their community with prayers and those who are not? No, I'm not talking about signs and wonders here, there is a perfectly obvious and mundane explanation for this. And AFAIK the experiments have been reported in serious journals and are accepted as valid in the medical community. Query: Of the people for whom others are praying, is there a difference in recovery speed between those who know that people are praying for them and those that don't? Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Praying for the Poor RE: Christian insanity.
- Original Message - From: Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 10:20 PM Subject: Re: Praying for the Poor RE: Christian insanity. Dan Minette wrote: Do you really believe that? Do you have experiments showing that people who have friends with pebbles in their shoes recover faster than those who have friends who don't. There are studies that show a difference in the recovery rate of people who are ill and who are supported by their community with prayers and those who are not? No, I'm not talking about signs and wonders here, there is a perfectly obvious and mundane explanation for this. And AFAIK the experiments have been reported in serious journals and are accepted as valid in the medical community. Query: Of the people for whom others are praying, is there a difference in recovery speed between those who know that people are praying for them and those that don't? Yup. If they don't know it, on any level, then no effect has been seen in tests that I would trust. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Praying for the Poor RE: Christian insanity.
At 05:43 AM 10/30/2002 -0800 Nick Arnett wrote: As for prayer teams swinging into action, I have a problem with that. It sounds a lot like it mistakes prayer for action, rather than recognizing that prayer enables action -- the kind of cop-out that leads us to pray for the hungry person in front of us, instead of *feeding* them. Not that I'm not guilty of that sometimes. Well, given the sizable homeless population of DC, and given the concentration of this population around Metro stations, this is a situation that I am confronted daily. Now, while I have a firm policy of *never* giving money to American beggars, since I believe that this rewards begging behaviour, and because I would be quickly bankrupted if I helped every one that I saw, I do give generously to charitable causes to help the unseen poor.Additionally, whenever I do see a poor person on the street, I have made a point of saying a prayer for them, as the least thing that I could do for them. JDG ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] People everywhere want to say what they think; choose who will govern them; worship as they please; educate their children -- male and female; own property; and enjoy the benefits of their labor. These values of freedom are right and true for every person, in every society -- and the duty of protecting these values against their enemies is the common calling of freedom-loving people across the globe and across the ages. -US National Security Policy, 2002 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Praying for the Poor RE: Christian insanity.
At 12:49 09-11-2002 -0500, John Giorgis wrote: Now, while I have a firm policy of *never* giving money to American beggars, since I believe that this rewards begging behaviour, So, you think those people *want* to be in a position where they have to beg for money? Additionally, whenever I do see a poor person on the street, I have made a point of saying a prayer for them, as the least thing that I could do for them. And that is going to help them improve their situation -- how exactly? Oh, and those are NOT rhetorical questions. Jeroen Capitali$m is Evil van Baardwijk __ Wonderful-World-of-Brin-L Website: http://www.Brin-L.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Praying for the Poor RE: Christian insanity.
Jeroen wrote: At 12:49 09-11-2002 -0500, John Giorgis wrote: Additionally, whenever I do see a poor person on the street, I have made a point of saying a prayer for them, as the least thing that I could do for them. And that is going to help them improve their situation -- how exactly? I'll address this question. To someone of faith, praying for another's welfare *does* help. I've seen this in my wife's church - when someone is ill, their name is circulated on prayer lists in the church, and there's a large group praying for them in a very short time. You may disagree with John's faith, but in him heart, he believes (I'd venture a guess that he *knows*) he's doing something for them. I'm more of an apathist than an atheist - I just don't have much personal use for religion or faith, but I don't have any strong feelings against it. If someone at my wife's church tells me (as, in fact, several did last week when I narrowly escaped being laid off) that they're praying for me, I take it as it's intended - a reminder that there are people that may not be able to directly alter things for the better, but that care how my life is going and sincerely hope it gets better. Many religious people also tithe a protion of their income to the church. My wife does at her church, which works with an interfaith network in Austin to provide shelter and food to homeless people. Something I've done in the past is make a batch of bags with small portions of nonperishable food - prepackaged peanut butter crackers, juice boxes, dried fruit - and added a card with the pone number of a homeless shelter to which I've taped $0.35 (the price of a local phone call at a phone booth). Jeroen Capitali$m is Evil van Baardwijk No more or less evil than socialism. Adam C. Lipscomb [EMAIL PROTECTED] Silence. I am watching television. - Spider Jerusalem ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Praying for the Poor RE: Christian insanity.
At 13:44 09-11-2002 -0600, Julia Thompson wrote: I've read articles where people begging were asked how much they took in, and there were people who'd brin in over $100/day, maybe more like $200/day. Wow! That much? Jeez, I should quit my job and develop a career in begging! No supervisors, working outdoors, choosing your own work hours, and earning more money as well! :-) Jeroen Money makes the world go round van Baardwijk __ Wonderful-World-of-Brin-L Website: http://www.Brin-L.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Praying for the Poor RE: Christian insanity.
J. van Baardwijk wrote: At 13:01 09-11-2002 -0600, Adam Lipscomb wrote: Additionally, whenever I do see a poor person on the street, I have made a point of saying a prayer for them, as the least thing that I could do for them. And that is going to help them improve their situation -- how exactly? I'll address this question. To someone of faith, praying for another's welfare *does* help. I am sure those of faith believe it will help, but does it *really* help that poor person? In other words: is there any scientific evidence that saying a prayer for a poor, homeless person will actually improve that person's situation? If so, I would love to see it. If not, well, then praying seems rather useless. Jeroen The Pragmatist van Baardwijk Pragmatically, maybe prayer is a reinforcement of Gee, I'd better get that check off to charity X that would be better able to help that person than I really can. In which case, it would be a little indirect, but it would help that person, or someone in a very similar situation. Also, there is scientific evidence that prayer or medidation is good for one's health, which leads in general to less of a drain on community health resources and more of a contribution to the community (if you're healthier, you can work more, earn more, give more to the community either in terms of taxes, which you'll pay more of if you earn more money, or charitable contributions, or time), so all other things being equal, someone who prays is, at least indirectly, helping others in the community. Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Praying for the Poor RE: Christian insanity.
On Sat, Nov 09, 2002 at 03:14:08PM -0500, John D. Giorgis wrote: In other words: is there any scientific evidence that saying a prayer for a poor, homeless person will actually improve that person's situation? If so, I would love to see it. If not, well, then praying seems rather useless. Yes. I've seen prayer improve the lives of poor people. I find it amazing to witness the intellectual contortions people will go through to defend their pre-conceived notions about prayer. -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Praying for the Poor RE: Christian insanity.
At 15:14 09-11-2002 -0500, John Giorgis wrote: In other words: is there any scientific evidence that saying a prayer for a poor, homeless person will actually improve that person's situation? If so, I would love to see it. If not, well, then praying seems rather useless. Yes. I've seen prayer improve the lives of poor people. How did *praying* for those people improve the *lives* of those people? Jeroen Money makes the world go round van Baardwijk __ Wonderful-World-of-Brin-L Website: http://www.Brin-L.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
