Re: stereotyping is evil, and why it must be eradicated
Ronn! Blankenship wrote: At 12:17 AM 11/26/02 -0500, John D. Giorgis wrote: Well, if you define theocracy to include the above, then you simply have created the new problem of defining the word that distinguishes the viewpoint of desiring an immediate and earthly theocracy from an ecclesiastical theocracy. I'm not necessarily proposing such a definition, just using it to show that we cannot really answer the question without agreeing upon a definition of theocracy. I'd say one of the main characteristics of a theocracy is intolerance towards other religions/interpretation of the own religion. (hmm somehow a familiar characteristic that intolerance theme) Maybe for a definition of theocracy we could work using with this as a startingpoint. Or we could simply continue what I feel is more like a mudslinging contest then a serious discussion, enveloping this thread as well. :o( Sonja ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: stereotyping is evil, and why it must be eradicated
William T Goodall wrote: What of people who hold pacifist religous views? Using Osama bin Laden to make a statement about the general characteristics of religion is beyond ludicrous. Is it? Quakers and other pacifist religions are a tiny minority. The 'general characteristics' of religion could be described with the pacifists as a footnote.[1] Could you please elaborate on these 'general characterisitics of a religion'? In fact it might be a good idea to first decide on what we mean by the terms 'religion' and pacifist religion' too. This *is* a topic that I might have something to add to but unless the basic terms are clarified, confusion is bound to flourish. :) [1] Just rebutting your 'beyond ludicrous' without claiming that massacring the heathen/infidel/non-believer is the normal pattern of theocracies. And another question: do we assume that all states without a written constitution stating the separation of religion from state were/are theocracies? Ritu ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: stereotyping is evil, and why it must be eradicated
Ronald Blankenship wrote: Define theocracy. Frex, Christians believe that at some point in the future, Jesus Christ will return to Earth as its ruler. g In which case, wouldn't the belief that the entire Creation is God's doing and, thus, under Her ultimate control be defined as a theocracy? Ritu GCU All Religions Are Theocracies? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: stereotyping is evil, and why it must be eradicated
- Original Message - From: Ritu Ko [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 4:27 AM Subject: RE: stereotyping is evil, and why it must be eradicated Ritu wrote: Ronald Blankenship wrote: Define theocracy. Frex, Christians believe that at some point in the future, Jesus Christ will return to Earth as its ruler. g In which case, wouldn't the belief that the entire Creation is God's doing and, thus, under Her ultimate control be defined as a theocracy? Got it in one, sister. vbg (I won't quibble with you over the gender of deity at this point. ;-) ) --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: stereotyping is evil, and why it must be eradicated
Ronn Blankenship wrote: (I won't quibble with you over the gender of deity at this point. ;-) ) Nothing to quibble about there, sir. It's a simple fact. ;) Btw, I meant to ask, what was the colour of the other half of that cat of yours? Ritu GCU Hanumani-Sindoori?there goes a divine cat class ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: stereotyping is evil, and why it must be eradicated
- Original Message - From: Ritu Ko [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 5:04 AM Subject: RE: stereotyping is evil, and why it must be eradicated Ritu asked: Ronn Blankenship wrote: (I won't quibble with you over the gender of deity at this point. ;-) ) Nothing to quibble about there, sir. It's a simple fact. ;) Btw, I meant to ask, what was the colour of the other half of that cat of yours? Other half? Not sure what you mean: Midnight is almost all black except for a spot on his tummy, an even smaller spot on his neck (which is small enough to hide behind his collar and tag) and a few white hairs right between his eyes. D.J. looks like a white cat that someone accidentally spilled coffee on, i.e., from above, he is mostly that color that coffee stains a fine white tablecloth, and from below, he is mostly white. His tail does have some tabby stripes of brown and white, but the rest of him is pretty much one solid color or the other. As far as breed goes, Midnight is half-Persian, other half unknown, and D.J. is anyone's guess. Though as I've mentioned before, he tends to weigh around 18 pounds (a bit over 8 kg) and can stand on the floor on his hind legs and get his nose in the sink. So whatever breed(s) he has in his makeup, they probably weren't miniature varieties . . . --Ronn! :) , D.J. =^.^= , and Midnight =^.^= , Spot (1992-96), and Andy (1989-99) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: stereotyping is evil, and why it must be eradicated
Ronn Blankenship wrote: Btw, I meant to ask, what was the colour of the other half of that cat of yours? Other half? Not sure what you mean: Of course you don't. My bad. :) Your earlier mail had mentioned a half-kali dog. I somehow remembered a cat.. :) Ritu GCU Oops! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: stereotyping is evil, and why it must be eradicated
- Original Message - From: Ritu Ko [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 5:51 AM Subject: RE: stereotyping is evil, and why it must be eradicated Ronn Blankenship wrote: Btw, I meant to ask, what was the colour of the other half of that cat of yours? Other half? Not sure what you mean: Of course you don't. My bad. :) Your earlier mail had mentioned a half-kali dog. I somehow remembered a cat.. :) Tappy, the dog I had until I was about 10, was half collie and half chow, according to the information we got when we got him. As I mentioned earlier, Midnight is half Persian and half who knows, which makes her half more of a purebred than most of my pets since Tappy have been . . . ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: stereotyping is evil, and why it must be eradicated
Ronn wrote: Define theocracy. Frex, Christians believe that at some point in the future, Jesus Christ will return to Earth as its ruler. That should be some Christians There are a lot of different ways to interpret the New Testament... Reggie Bautista _ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: stereotyping is evil, and why it must be eradicated
From: John D. Giorgis [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 01:57 PM 11/24/2002 -0600 The Fool wrote: As long as there are people who believe these kinds of things, whether they are christians, jews, islamists, hindus or whatever, (and I know plenty of people with this kind of worldview personally), the human race is headed for extinction. It is only a matter of time before the fanatics do us all in. What of people who hold pacifist religous views? There are perhaps two major (and several tiny) christian sects [True Belivers] that hold pacifist views. The Amish. The Jehovah Witness's Two worldviews that are so unbelievably outside of the mainstream, they are ludicris. I havn't studied other religions as extensively. Using Osama bin Laden to make a statement about the general characteristics of religion is beyond ludicrous. And just how many unholy wars did the Popes reside over during the dark ages Mr. Catholic? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: stereotyping is evil, and why it must be eradicated
The Fool said: And just how many unholy wars did the Popes reside over during the dark ages Mr. Catholic? Not an awful lot, I would've thought. It seems to me that the main inter-religious wars during the Dark Ages in Europe were between Merovingian France and the Muslim armies in Spain and between Byzantium and the Muslim armies in Asia Minor and the Middle East. In both cases, the Europeans were fighting to defend against territorial conquest by outside forces. Furthermore, the Byzantines' religious leader wasn't the Pope but the Patriarch of Constantinople. (There were, of course, various heresies in late Roman times, but if I recall correctly most of the unpleasantness was before the collapse of the West and the start of the Dark Ages.) If you're talking about the Crusades, those happened when the Dark Ages had given way to the Medieval period, which was a time of commercial and technological (and artistic and philosophical) innovation. Medieval Europe might look primitive and nasty from our viewpoint but it was making great strides forward until the setback of the Black Death. Rich GCU Not Remotely An Expert ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: stereotyping is evil, and why it must be eradicated
From: John D. Giorgis [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 01:10 AM 11/25/2002 + William T Goodall wrote: Is it? Quakers and other pacifist religions are a tiny minority. The 'general characteristics' of religion could be described with the pacifists as a footnote.[1] [1] Just rebutting your 'beyond ludicrous' without claiming that massacring the heathen/infidel/non-believer is the normal pattern of theocracies. But isn't correlating religion and theocracy something of a sterotype as well?I think that only a small minority of the religious in the world today advocate theocracy. What percentage of the population is muslim? What percent are JW's? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: stereotyping is evil, and why it must be eradicated
The Fool wrote: From: John D. Giorgis [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 01:10 AM 11/25/2002 + William T Goodall wrote: Is it? Quakers and other pacifist religions are a tiny minority. The 'general characteristics' of religion could be described with the pacifists as a footnote.[1] [1] Just rebutting your 'beyond ludicrous' without claiming that massacring the heathen/infidel/non-believer is the normal pattern of theocracies. But isn't correlating religion and theocracy something of a sterotype as well?I think that only a small minority of the religious in the world today advocate theocracy. What percentage of the population is muslim? What percent are JW's? What percentage of muslims advocate theocracy? None of the ones I've run into (admittedly, a very small sample) were interested in such. Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: stereotyping is evil, and why it must be eradicated
In a message dated 11/25/2002 12:47:44 PM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The Fool said: And just how many unholy wars did the Popes reside over during the dark ages Mr. Catholic? replying: Not an awful lot I'd rather move up a few centuries. Even Tilly tried to prevent what happened at Magdeburg. There's no simple answer. William Taylor - Isn't it about time for the Pope's wife to have twins? Or was Woody wrong. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: stereotyping is evil, and why it must be eradicated
Julia said: What percentage of muslims advocate theocracy? None of the ones I've run into (admittedly, a very small sample) were interested in such. I suppose that now's a bad time to launch my bid to become God-Emperor of the Known Universe, right? Rich GSV There's Always Next Year ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: stereotyping is evil, and why it must be eradicated
Richard Baker wrote: Julia said: What percentage of muslims advocate theocracy? None of the ones I've run into (admittedly, a very small sample) were interested in such. I suppose that now's a bad time to launch my bid to become God-Emperor of the Known Universe, right? :D Possibly, but I'm not going to stop you here. (The entertainment value should be worth something, at least) Julia p.s. How large is the Known Universe? And how can you govern as God-Emperor without FTL communications? And if you have them, could you share with the rest of us? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: stereotyping is evil, and why it must be eradicated
Julia said: p.s. How large is the Known Universe? A few tens of billions of light years across. It depends on a rather flimsy ladder of distance measurements so I'm not sure exactly how big. And how can you govern as God-Emperor without FTL communications? I was planning to wave my arms in the general direction of the night sky and say I claim these worlds in the name of myself, Richard the First and Last, God-Emperor of the Known Universe. The rest is mere technicalities - I'll let the engineers deal with them while I'm consolidating my rule here on Earth. Actually, I think I'll go outside to check if it's clear and get on with that claiming right now... And if you have them, could you share with the rest of us? Sure. Have a super-cluster. No, I'm feeling magnanimous: have two! Rich GCU Divine Generosity ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: stereotyping is evil, and why it must be eradicated
In a message dated 11/25/2002 1:33:06 PM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I was planning to wave my arms in the general direction of the night sky and say I claim these worlds in the name of myself, Richard the First and Last, God-Emperor of the Known Universe. Pick a night with a known metor shower. ;-) Who knows, irony could strike just at the right time. William Taylor - If not irony, then perhaps chondritery? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: stereotyping is evil, and why it must be eradicated
From: Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Fool wrote: From: John D. Giorgis [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 01:10 AM 11/25/2002 + William T Goodall wrote: Is it? Quakers and other pacifist religions are a tiny minority. The 'general characteristics' of religion could be described with the pacifists as a footnote.[1] [1] Just rebutting your 'beyond ludicrous' without claiming that massacring the heathen/infidel/non-believer is the normal pattern of theocracies. But isn't correlating religion and theocracy something of a sterotype as well?I think that only a small minority of the religious in the world today advocate theocracy. What percentage of the population is muslim? What percent are JW's? What percentage of muslims advocate theocracy? None of the ones I've run into (admittedly, a very small sample) were interested in such. It's an islamic teaching. Wherever the evil of islam has gained a toehold, islamic shariah has sprung up and enslaved the people. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: stereotyping is evil, and why it must be eradicated
The Fool said: The renasiance didn't happen until after the crusades, in which the crusaders brought back with them a great deal of knowledge from the greek and roman times. I wasn't talking about the Italian renaissance though, but the time before and during the Crusades. There wouldn't have been Crusades in the first place if Western Christendom hadn't acquired a new confidence and a new ability to project force far beyond its borders. The Renaissance was long preceded by changes in the nature of European trade (the formation of the Hanseatic League, for example), the emergence of relatively strong states from the feudal patchwork, the first uses of windmills and watermills (and many other less dramatic technological innovations), the (admittedly still Christian) philosophy of Thomas Aquinas and lots of other steps out of the darkness of the Dark Ages. Then, of course, the Black Death screwed everything up. Anyway, my point is that the European advances in the era from around AD1000 on weren't all down to the rediscovery of the classical Roman and Greek heritage through increased contact with Byzantium and the Muslims. Nor was the Renaissance a sudden unexpected flowering - the ground in which it took root had already been prepared. All this talk of medieval times has made me realise I need to read a good history of the era. Does anyone here have any recommendations? (I'll also ask my friend Sara, who was a historian of the Crusades, and post a list of her recommendations.) Rich ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: stereotyping is evil, and why it must be eradicated
- Original Message - From: The Fool [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 2:44 PM Subject: Re: stereotyping is evil, and why it must be eradicated From: Richard Baker [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Fool said: And just how many unholy wars did the Popes reside over during the dark ages Mr. Catholic? We'll include medieval europe in that as well. Not an awful lot, I would've thought. It seems to me that the main inter-religious wars during the Dark Ages in Europe were between Merovingian France and the Muslim armies in Spain and between Byzantium and the Muslim armies in Asia Minor and the Middle East. In both cases, the Europeans were fighting to defend against territorial conquest by outside forces. Furthermore, the Byzantines' religious leader wasn't the Pope but the Patriarch of Constantinople. (There were, of course, various heresies in late Roman times, but if I recall correctly most of the unpleasantness was before the collapse of the West and the start of the Dark Ages.) If you're talking about the Crusades, those happened when the Dark Ages had given way to the Medieval period, which was a time of commercial and technological (and artistic and philosophical) innovation. Medieval Europe might look primitive and nasty from our viewpoint but it was making great strides forward until the setback of the Black Death. The renasiance didn't happen until after the crusades, in which the crusaders brought back with them a great deal of knowledge from the greek and roman times. Which, FWIW, was preserved by Muslim Arabs when Christians burned the Library at Alexandria because its books were written by pagan Greeks. -- Ronn! :) Ronn Blankenship Instructor of Astronomy/Planetary Science University of Montevallo Montevallo, AL Disclaimer: Unless specifically stated otherwise, any opinions contained herein are the personal opinions of the author and do not represent the official position of the University of Montevallo. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: stereotyping is evil, and why it must be eradicated
In a message dated 11/25/2002 6:50:53 PM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Which, FWIW, was preserved by Muslim Arabs when Christians burned the Library at Alexandria because its books were written by pagan Greeks. ? Was there more than one burning? I thought it was: New ruler after conquest: Do these books praise and bring glory to Allah? Librarian: No. Ruler: Then they are worthless. I'll have to ask Cariadoc... William Taylor --- B.A. History (i.e. Do you want fries with that?) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: stereotyping is evil, and why it must be eradicated
At 08:57 PM 11/24/2002 -0600 Ronald Blankenship wrote: [1] Just rebutting your 'beyond ludicrous' without claiming that massacring the heathen/infidel/non-believer is the normal pattern of theocracies. But isn't correlating religion and theocracy something of a sterotype as well?I think that only a small minority of the religious in the world today advocate theocracy. Define theocracy. Frex, Christians believe that at some point in the future, Jesus Christ will return to Earth as its ruler. Well, if you define theocracy to include the above, then you simply have created the new problem of defining the word that distinguishes the viewpoint of desiring an immediate and earthly theocracy from an ecclesiastical theocracy. JDG ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] People everywhere want to say what they think; choose who will govern them; worship as they please; educate their children -- male and female; own property; and enjoy the benefits of their labor. These values of freedom are right and true for every person, in every society -- and the duty of protecting these values against their enemies is the common calling of freedom-loving people across the globe and across the ages. -US National Security Policy, 2002 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: stereotyping is evil, and why it must be eradicated
At 01:48 PM 11/25/2002 -0600 The Fool wrote: I think that only a small minority of the religious in the world today advocate theocracy. What percentage of the population is muslim? What percent are JW's? Well, how about all the Muslims that take the Koran literally when it says There can be no compulsion in religion? What about all the Catholics that follow Vatican II's teachings on freedom of conscience in religion? What about the 90+% of Americans that believe in God and oppose theocracy? JDG ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] People everywhere want to say what they think; choose who will govern them; worship as they please; educate their children -- male and female; own property; and enjoy the benefits of their labor. These values of freedom are right and true for every person, in every society -- and the duty of protecting these values against their enemies is the common calling of freedom-loving people across the globe and across the ages. -US National Security Policy, 2002 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: stereotyping is evil, and why it must be eradicated
At 01:32 PM 11/25/2002 -0600 The Fool wrote: There are perhaps two major (and several tiny) christian sects [True Belivers] that hold pacifist views. The Amish. The Jehovah Witness's Well, the Catholic Church has nearly become pacificistic in recent centuries. Pacifism is also a not insignificant theological current in many mainline and evangelical Protestant denominations. And just how many unholy wars did the Popes reside over during the dark ages Mr. Catholic? Is that the most recent example you have available to you? If so, then I should probably just let you keep making your case about how dangerous religions like Catholicism really are today, such that religions like Catholicism must be irradicated - since you will be discrediting that viewpoint more effectively than I can. :) JDG ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] People everywhere want to say what they think; choose who will govern them; worship as they please; educate their children -- male and female; own property; and enjoy the benefits of their labor. These values of freedom are right and true for every person, in every society -- and the duty of protecting these values against their enemies is the common calling of freedom-loving people across the globe and across the ages. -US National Security Policy, 2002 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: stereotyping is evil, and why it must be eradicated
At 02:49 PM 11/25/2002 -0600 The Fool wrote: What percentage of muslims advocate theocracy? None of the ones I've run into (admittedly, a very small sample) were interested in such. It's an islamic teaching. Wherever the evil of islam has gained a toehold, islamic shariah has sprung up and enslaved the people. This is utterly false, and another example of the evils of stereotyping. What percent of Muslim people do you currently think live under Sharia? As a hint, Turkey, Indonesia, India, Bangladesh and Malaysia have aronud 40% of the world's Muslims between them alone. JDG ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] People everywhere want to say what they think; choose who will govern them; worship as they please; educate their children -- male and female; own property; and enjoy the benefits of their labor. These values of freedom are right and true for every person, in every society -- and the duty of protecting these values against their enemies is the common calling of freedom-loving people across the globe and across the ages. -US National Security Policy, 2002 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: stereotyping is evil, and why it must be eradicated
At 12:17 AM 11/26/02 -0500, John D. Giorgis wrote: At 08:57 PM 11/24/2002 -0600 Ronald Blankenship wrote: [1] Just rebutting your 'beyond ludicrous' without claiming that massacring the heathen/infidel/non-believer is the normal pattern of theocracies. But isn't correlating religion and theocracy something of a sterotype as well?I think that only a small minority of the religious in the world today advocate theocracy. Define theocracy. Frex, Christians believe that at some point in the future, Jesus Christ will return to Earth as its ruler. Well, if you define theocracy to include the above, then you simply have created the new problem of defining the word that distinguishes the viewpoint of desiring an immediate and earthly theocracy from an ecclesiastical theocracy. I'm not necessarily proposing such a definition, just using it to show that we cannot really answer the question without agreeing upon a definition of theocracy. --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: stereotyping is evil, and why it must be eradicated
At 01:57 PM 11/24/2002 -0600 The Fool wrote: As long as there are people who believe these kinds of things, whether they are christians, jews, islamists, hindus or whatever, (and I know plenty of people with this kind of worldview personally), the human race is headed for extinction. It is only a matter of time before the fanatics do us all in. What of people who hold pacifist religous views? Using Osama bin Laden to make a statement about the general characteristics of religion is beyond ludicrous. JDG ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] People everywhere want to say what they think; choose who will govern them; worship as they please; educate their children -- male and female; own property; and enjoy the benefits of their labor. These values of freedom are right and true for every person, in every society -- and the duty of protecting these values against their enemies is the common calling of freedom-loving people across the globe and across the ages. -US National Security Policy, 2002 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: stereotyping is evil, and why it must be eradicated
on 24/11/02 11:45 pm, John D. Giorgis at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 01:57 PM 11/24/2002 -0600 The Fool wrote: As long as there are people who believe these kinds of things, whether they are christians, jews, islamists, hindus or whatever, (and I know plenty of people with this kind of worldview personally), the human race is headed for extinction. It is only a matter of time before the fanatics do us all in. What of people who hold pacifist religous views? Using Osama bin Laden to make a statement about the general characteristics of religion is beyond ludicrous. Is it? Quakers and other pacifist religions are a tiny minority. The 'general characteristics' of religion could be described with the pacifists as a footnote.[1] [1] Just rebutting your 'beyond ludicrous' without claiming that massacring the heathen/infidel/non-believer is the normal pattern of theocracies. -- William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: stereotyping is evil, and why it must be eradicated
At 01:10 AM 11/25/2002 + William T Goodall wrote: Is it? Quakers and other pacifist religions are a tiny minority. The 'general characteristics' of religion could be described with the pacifists as a footnote.[1] [1] Just rebutting your 'beyond ludicrous' without claiming that massacring the heathen/infidel/non-believer is the normal pattern of theocracies. But isn't correlating religion and theocracy something of a sterotype as well?I think that only a small minority of the religious in the world today advocate theocracy. JDG ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] People everywhere want to say what they think; choose who will govern them; worship as they please; educate their children -- male and female; own property; and enjoy the benefits of their labor. These values of freedom are right and true for every person, in every society -- and the duty of protecting these values against their enemies is the common calling of freedom-loving people across the globe and across the ages. -US National Security Policy, 2002 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
