Re: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?]
Ronn!Blankenship wrote: There was a short-lived movement to replace the GOTO with a new statement, COMEFROM, but for some reason it never caught on . . . I have a copy of the COMEFROM article somewhere. If I can find it, I get it to you. Are we allowed to send attachments on this list? George A ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?]
Jose J. Ortiz-Carlo Wrote: Spaghetti code was a very negative thing to have written on your assignment. Heard of Lasagna Code? I'm not kidding. George A What was lasagna code? That's an interesting term. It was structure code carried to an extreme. It was so filled with nested For, Do-While, Repeat-Until, If-Then-Else, If-Then-ElseIf-Then constructs that the code became unreadable glop (Lasagna), almost impossible to figure out the logic. George A ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?]
G. D. Akin wrote: Ronn!Blankenship wrote: There was a short-lived movement to replace the GOTO with a new statement, COMEFROM, but for some reason it never caught on . . . I have a copy of the COMEFROM article somewhere. If I can find it, I get it to you. Are we allowed to send attachments on this list? The list server will eat attachments. If you can cut paste, that'll work. Otherwise, if you can get it up onto a website and post the URL, that'll work. Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?]
From: Reggie Bautista [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ahh, GOTO. I remember what a big deal it was when they installed a new version of BASIC at the high school I was attending at the time, and it had two brand new commands (new for us, anyway); GOSUB and RETURN. The programming teachers immediately banned use of GOTO altogether. In retrospect, the days of GOTO seem like the dark ages of programming ;-) Reggie Bautista I remember clearly how much of a big NONO our programming teachers made with GOTO as well. Anybody remember the term spaghetti code? JJ _ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?]
From: Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] GOTO was the reason my father would not let me take programming in high school; all the programming classes were BASIC, except that if you'd had 2 courses of BASIC, you could then take Pascal. I didn't get to take a programming class until I could have one that started out with Pascal. Our curriculum leading up to the College Board's Computer Sciences AP Exam was more or less formatted the same way, up until about 3 or 4 years ago. Then they switched BASIC to PASCAL, and C would be the ultimate objective course. However, I haven't checked what they're up to these years. I remember reading, in passing, that they were planning to change back from C to PASCAL. (My father was familiar with a number of programming languages; he taught FORTRAN when he was in Belfast as a student, because he knew it better than any of the faculty.) Julia Ah, yes... a wonder kid. Most computer teachers would consider those a nightmare come true. I have nothing against that, btw. I love nightmares. In my opinion, they are very creative dreams. ;) JJ _ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?]
- Original Message - From: Horn, John [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 1:28 AM Subject: RE: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie So undtrack?] From: G. D. Akin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Especially Basic that has all the control structures to allow full structured programming and modern programming techniques. Which VB certainly does. Perhaps you should have said BASIC now has all the control structures . . D'oh! There was a missing a in there. Yes, that's exactly what I meant. A modern Basic with control structures. I'm fully aware that originally basic only had GOTO and IF/THEN. Br. Brings back bad horrible memories. But you could do some really neat stuff with it. George A ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?]
- Original Message - From: Jose J. Ortiz-Carlo [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 7:41 PM Subject: Re: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie So undtrack?] From: Reggie Bautista [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ahh, GOTO. I remember what a big deal it was when they installed a new version of BASIC at the high school I was attending at the time, and it had two brand new commands (new for us, anyway); GOSUB and RETURN. The programming teachers immediately banned use of GOTO altogether. In retrospect, the days of GOTO seem like the dark ages of programming ;-) Reggie Bautista I remember clearly how much of a big NONO our programming teachers made with GOTO as well. Anybody remember the term spaghetti code? JJ An how. My instructors had no qualms about GOTOs in languages that had no other way to implement the standard control structure. However, they had BIG qualms about the uncontrolled use of GOTOs. Spaghetti code was a very negative thing to have written on your assignment. Heard of Lasagna Code? I'm not kidding. George A ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?]
On Wed, Mar 05, 2003 at 10:46:07AM +, Jose J. Ortiz-Carlo wrote: Our curriculum leading up to the College Board's Computer Sciences AP Exam was more or less formatted the same way, up until about 3 or 4 years ago. Then they switched BASIC to PASCAL, and C would be the ultimate objective course. However, I haven't checked what they're up to these years. I remember reading, in passing, that they were planning to change back from C to PASCAL. That's odd. I took Computer Science AP in 1988 and we used Pascal. Is your AP Exam different than ours (mainland US)? Or did it switch from Pascal to BASIC and back after I took it? -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?]
From: G. D. Akin [EMAIL PROTECTED] GOTO as well. Anybody remember the term spaghetti code? JJ An how. My instructors had no qualms about GOTOs in languages that had no other way to implement the standard control structure. However, they had BIG qualms about the uncontrolled use of GOTOs. Spaghetti code was a very negative thing to have written on your assignment. Heard of Lasagna Code? I'm not kidding. George A What was lasagna code? That's an interesting term. JJ _ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?]
From: Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] That's odd. I took Computer Science AP in 1988 and we used Pascal. Is your AP Exam different than ours (mainland US)? Or did it switch from Pascal to BASIC and back after I took it? That's odd indeed. I remember when I started teaching (late 80's) when BASIC was the standard. It may have been a regional thing, though. Then, I got a notice from the College Board annouuncing the big switch to PASCAL. I'm going to do a little research. I thought College Board in PR had the same standards as in the States, but I wouldn't be surprised. Thanks for pointing that out. JJ _ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?]
On Tue Mar 4 18:42:38 PST 2003, Reggie Bautista wrote: Han Tacoma wrote: On Mon, 03 Mar 2003 21:32:36 -0600 Reggie Bautista gives me a well deserved lecture about the list's netiquette: [...snip...] I wasn't trying to lecture, just inform :-) Just jesting, thanks though :-) [...snip...] ...but no seriously, although on the horizon, AOP, as Nick suggests, does seem to be the new coming thing. Before you and Nick mentioned it, I had never heard of Aspect-Oriented programming. Thanks for the info. I'm finding it interesting, if a bit hard to wrap my brain around at the moment. Thanks for the links too. Fresh from Slashdot, http://books.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/03/02/2253212 Aspect-Oriented Programming with AspectJ Posted by timothy on 11:15 AM March 4th, 2003 Verity Stob writes There is a turning point in the emergence of a programming methodology. It doesn't matter how big and popular the website is, nor how many papers have been published in the ACM journals or development magazines, nor even whether the first conferences have been a sell-out. A methodology hasn't made really made it until somebody has published a Proper Book. With Aspect-Oriented Programming with AspectJ author Ivan Kiselev is bidding to drag AOP into the mainstream. He is motivated, he says in his introduction, by the recollection of the 25 odd years it took for the object-oriented concept to spread from its Simula origins in frosty Norway to being the everyday tool of Joe Coder. He aims to prevent this delay happening to AOP. Read on for Verity Stob's review of Kiselev's book. Cheers! -- Han Tacoma ~ Artificial Intelligence is better than none! ~ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?]
From: Jose J. Ortiz-Carlo [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] I remember clearly how much of a big NONO our programming teachers made with GOTO as well. Anybody remember the term spaghetti code? When they banned GOTO, I showed 'em! I changed all my code to just say GO! - jmh ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?]
Jose J. Ortiz-Carlo wrote: I remember clearly how much of a big NONO our programming teachers made with GOTO as well. Anybody remember the term spaghetti code? The term takes on a whole new meaning in LabView wherein poor code literally looks like spaghetti. Doug GSV State Machine ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?]
- Original Message - From: Horn, John [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 1:52 PM Subject: RE: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie So undtrack?] From: Jose J. Ortiz-Carlo [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] And speaking of languages, is it me, or is BASIC making a comeback of sorts? There's nothing wrong with Basic, just a bad choice of names. Especially Basic that has all the control structures to allow full structured programming and modern programming techniques. Which VB certainly does. Perhaps you should have said BASIC now has all the control structures . . . In my first programming course, in BASIC, we had to simulate control structures with the controlled use of IF ... GOTO. George A ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?]
From: G. D. Akin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Especially Basic that has all the control structures to allow full structured programming and modern programming techniques. Which VB certainly does. Perhaps you should have said BASIC now has all the control structures . . D'oh! There was a missing a in there. Yes, that's exactly what I meant. A modern Basic with control structures. I'm fully aware that originally basic only had GOTO and IF/THEN. Br. Brings back bad horrible memories. - jmh ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?]
Han Tacoma wrote: On Mon, 03 Mar 2003 21:32:36 -0600 Reggie Bautista gives me a well deserved lecture about the list's netiquette: Usually on this list, if the post is going to be long we add L3, LLL, or ELL to the subject heading. L3 and LLL are Lazh-Like Length and ELL is [...snip...] I wasn't trying to lecture, just inform :-) I wrote: I'm curious; what new paradigms are you seeing? Han responded: ...but no seriously, although on the horizon, AOP, as Nick suggests, does seem to be the new coming thing. Before you and Nick mentioned it, I had never heard of Aspect-Oriented programming. Thanks for the info. I'm finding it interesting, if a bit hard to wrap my brain around at the moment. Thanks for the links too. Reggie Bautista _ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?]
George wrote: In my first programming course, in BASIC, we had to simulate control structures with the controlled use of IF ... GOTO. Ahh, GOTO. I remember what a big deal it was when they installed a new version of BASIC at the high school I was attending at the time, and it had two brand new commands (new for us, anyway); GOSUB and RETURN. The programming teachers immediately banned use of GOTO altogether. In retrospect, the days of GOTO seem like the dark ages of programming ;-) Reggie Bautista _ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?]
- Original Message - From: Reggie Bautista [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 6:47 PM Subject: Re: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie So undtrack?] George wrote: In my first programming course, in BASIC, we had to simulate control structures with the controlled use of IF ... GOTO. Ahh, GOTO. I remember what a big deal it was when they installed a new version of BASIC at the high school I was attending at the time, and it had two brand new commands (new for us, anyway); GOSUB and RETURN. The programming teachers immediately banned use of GOTO altogether. In retrospect, the days of GOTO seem like the dark ages of programming ;-) Reggie Bautista Real Men program with backwards GOTO statements that reference back over 1000 lines of code. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?]
Nick Arnett wrote: TBL is a very fine person. I miss talking regularly to him; his ideas about the semantic web fascinate me. Somewhere on a brin-l page is a lousy picture of us inside Paris city hall. http://www.sloan3d.com/cgi-bin/memberpix.cgi?person=nickarnettpic=nick_tbl.jpg :-) __ Steve Sloan . Huntsville, Alabama = [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brin-L list pages .. http://www.brin-l.org Chmeee's 3D Objects http://www.sloan3d.com/chmeee 3D and Drawing Galleries .. http://www.sloansteady.com Software Science Fiction, Science, and Computer Links Science fiction scans . http://www.sloan3d.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?]
Reggie Bautista wrote: George wrote: In my first programming course, in BASIC, we had to simulate control structures with the controlled use of IF ... GOTO. Ahh, GOTO. I remember what a big deal it was when they installed a new version of BASIC at the high school I was attending at the time, and it had two brand new commands (new for us, anyway); GOSUB and RETURN. The programming teachers immediately banned use of GOTO altogether. In retrospect, the days of GOTO seem like the dark ages of programming ;-) GOTO was the reason my father would not let me take programming in high school; all the programming classes were BASIC, except that if you'd had 2 courses of BASIC, you could then take Pascal. I didn't get to take a programming class until I could have one that started out with Pascal. (My father was familiar with a number of programming languages; he taught FORTRAN when he was in Belfast as a student, because he knew it better than any of the faculty.) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?]
On Tue, 4 Mar 2003, Reggie Bautista wrote: Ahh, GOTO. I remember what a big deal it was when they installed a new version of BASIC at the high school I was attending at the time, and it had two brand new commands (new for us, anyway); GOSUB and RETURN. The programming teachers immediately banned use of GOTO altogether. In retrospect, the days of GOTO seem like the dark ages of programming ;-) I have fond, fond memories of GOTO and GOSUB/RETURN. Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?]
On Monday, March 3, 2003, at 03:20 pm, Nick Arnett wrote: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of William T Goodall ... I think the 'basic' part of the name in VB and RB is more about sounding unscary to non-CS graduates than about indicating language family trees wrt to syntax and such. As a follow-up to my brief history of the birth of Java, here's a bit about the birth of VB. Alan Cooper (www.cooper.com) developed it as HyperCard for Windows. HyperCard, from Apple, was an effort to make programming easy for most people, through a combination of drag-and-drop interface design and highly readable code (HyperTalk). From the start, the idea behind it was to have a tool that was fairly easy to develop in, but extremely easy to learn and borrow from others' work. And REALbasic was designed to be (largely) compatible with VB (except better) and to bring the qualities of HyperCard back to the Mac (since HyperCard had been languishing for many years). And one of the early versions of RB could X-compile to Java byte-code... -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it. -- Donald E. Knuth ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?]
Han Tacoma wrote: be forewarned, this may be considered long, or very long by some Usually on this list, if the post is going to be long we add L3, LLL, or ELL to the subject heading. L3 and LLL are Lazh-Like Length and ELL is Eythain-Like Length, both in tribute to an old list member named Eythain Lazh who was prone to long postings. Also acceptible is GLL (Gord-Like Length) in honor of another former member, but I haven't seen that one used in years. Not everyone adds these flags to the subject heading, and not everyone uses the same cutoff. Given the length of some of my posts lately, we may have to add RLL and BLL as options :-) Object Oriented programming has now been overshadowed by other paradigms and this only confirms that old adage the only constant in the universe is change. I'm curious; what new paradigms are you seeing? I have a friend who just got his programming degree from DeVry, where they're still teaching object oriented programming like it was the second coming, and I'm sure he'd appreciate knowing what other approaches he should study. And as a person just getting back into programming after a long absence, I'd certainly like to know too. Cheers! (...please be gentle and don't flame me!) Don't worry. There have been flames on this list, and occasionally they've been brutal, but generally this is a pretty friendly place to be, most of the time. Oh, by the way, welcome to the list! Reggie Bautista _ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?]
From: Jose J. Ortiz-Carlo [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] And speaking of languages, is it me, or is BASIC making a comeback of sorts? There's nothing wrong with Basic, just a bad choice of names. Especially Basic that has all the control structures to allow full structured programming and modern programming techniques. Which VB certainly does. - jmh ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?]
On Sat, Mar 01, 2003 at 11:24:59AM -0800, Nick Arnett wrote: boxes. Though I would have loved to have had the work, I couldn't honestly come up with a strategy that made sense. Neither could anyone else, apparently, so Sun steered it in the direction it has gone. There's a platform - MHP, I think it might be, or something like that - which uses a JVM. The basic idea is the same as with PCs, write your application code once and run it on multiple STBs. How much it's actually being used, however, is another matter, since the average STB processor doesn't exactly run a JVM with blinding speed... -- Paul Now I have visions of engines mounted at 45 degree angles to the (normal) direction of travel of the car. Because, you know, 90 degree angles cause bad ch'i and all that. -- Logan Shaw ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?]
On Thu, 27 Feb 2003 23:16:15 -0600, Ronn!Blankenship wrote: Anyone want to comment here on APL? I would love to but don't I need a special keyboard? :) Dean ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?]
From: Reggie Bautista [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] I stand corrected. Let me rephrase. When I first heard about Java, it was in an article that described it as a language where you could write a program once and compile it anywhere, so as to help narrow the software gap between Windows and other OS's. Am I correct in understanding that the compile anywhere promise has not been achieved yet? More like Write Once Test Everywhere... And I'm the resident Java-fanatic at my work. Which, by the way, is a Pick shop. Anyone else use or ever heard of that? The particular variant we use is Unidata from IBM. (Just to join the fun, I've also worked in with a bit of Visual Basic, had Pascal in school and learned just enough C/C++ to decide I *really* liked Java and the lack of pointers and memory math!) - jmh Had To Join the Party Maru ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?]
On Fri, Feb 28, 2003 at 10:27:37PM -0600, Ronn!Blankenship wrote: All I was saying is that some people are always going to criticize whoever's at the top simply because they are on top. Sure, but that assumes that Java's at the top, which I'm not convinced by. Certainly it's only appeared in a couple of the job descriptions I've looked at recently; C, C++, and Python have appeared more often. -- Paul ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?]
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Paul Walker ... Sure, but that assumes that Java's at the top, which I'm not convinced by. Certainly it's only appeared in a couple of the job descriptions I've looked at recently; C, C++, and Python have appeared more often. Perhaps you should look for a less interesting job... ;-) Nick ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?]
I wrote: Given the fact that Java was originally intended in part as a tool to break Micro$oft's dominance of the industry, the irony of that is just staggering... Nick replied: Eh? Java was originally intended as a set-top box programming language -- a way to distribute multimedia software to televisions. It was called Oak in those days. I stand corrected. Let me rephrase. When I first heard about Java, it was in an article that described it as a language where you could write a program once and compile it anywhere, so as to help narrow the software gap between Windows and other OS's. Am I correct in understanding that the compile anywhere promise has not been achieved yet? Reggie Bautista _ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?]
On Sat, Mar 01, 2003 at 04:22:33PM -0600, Dan Minette wrote: I'll take natural stupidity over artificial intelligence any day. Well, it depends on the contest, doesn't it? I'd take natural stupidity on, say, interpreting what someone means in a given context, but I'd take AI in a chess match, for example. -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?]
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Reggie Bautista ... I stand corrected. Let me rephrase. When I first heard about Java, it was in an article that described it as a language where you could write a program once and compile it anywhere, so as to help narrow the software gap between Windows and other OS's. Am I correct in understanding that the compile anywhere promise has not been achieved yet? There are Java virtual machines for many environments, so there is *some* reality in it. But there are quirks... Nick ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?]
From: Han Tacoma [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello, I'll focus on Getting to know you. Just joined the list and got caught up in this thread, nostalgia suddenly waking up in me. Han: Welcome aboard. Have fun!! :) JJ _ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?]
Ronn!: wrote Since this seems to have turned into post your resume: Note really post your resume, but Getting to know you. George A ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?]
Ronn!Blankenship wrote: Anyone want to comment here on APL? I was forced to take an APL course in college as part of NJIT's Statistics and Actuarial Science program at the time. I can't say that I remember much about it; it was an introductory course. I don't recall caring for it all that much. I seem to remember it was very...brief, for lack of a better word, at least compared to the other languages I had been exposed to, like Pascal, Fortran, and COBOL. Jim ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?]
On Fri, Feb 28, 2003 at 08:10:57PM -0600, Ronn!Blankenship wrote: BD? Imagining Whips And Chains In The Computer Room Maru Mm, kind of. http://www.jargonfile.com/jargon/html/entry/bondage-and-discipline-language.html -- Paul I make movies that nobody will see. I've made movies that even I have never seen. -- Christopher Walken ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?]
On Saturday, March 1, 2003, at 02:10 am, Ronn!Blankenship wrote: At 02:32 PM 2/26/03 +, William T Goodall wrote: I much prefer C to Pascal. Or Modula-2 or Ada or any of those other BD languages. BD? Imagining Whips And Chains In The Computer Room Maru From The new Hackers Dictionary Ed Eric Raymond bondage-and-discipline language. A language (Such as Pascal, Ada, APL or Prolog) that, although ostensibly general-purpose, is designed so as to enforce an author's theory of 'right programming' even though said theory is demonstrably inadequate for systems hacking or even vanilla general-purpose programming. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ A computer without Windows is like a cake without mustard. - anonymous ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?]
Nick wrote: Java is also the most widely used programming language in the world. What the heck is so evil about it? Ronn! replied: For some, that is sufficient reason to consider it evil, just as M$ is considered evil because of its industry dominance. Given the fact that Java was originally intended in part as a tool to break Micro$oft's dominance of the industry, the irony of that is just staggering... Reggie Bautista Stumbling Around Maru _ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?]
Nick wrote: Java is also the most widely used programming language in the world. What the heck is so evil about it? Ronn! replied: For some, that is sufficient reason to consider it evil, just as M$ is considered evil because of its industry dominance. I responded: Given the fact that Java was originally intended in part as a tool to break Micro$oft's dominance of the industry, the irony of that is just staggering... Ronn! retorted: All I was saying is that some people are always going to criticize whoever's at the top simply because they are on top. I certainly agree with you, I just think that some people probably need to pick their battles a little more carefully, supporting Sun's efforts to somewhat weaken Micro$oft hegemony in the computer world... although I guess I can see where someone might draw a parallel with political events of the past 20 years or so and come to a different conclusion. Lemme 'splain that one. The US supported Iraq when Iran was the enemy in that part of the globe. The US supported Bin Laden against the Soviet Union when USSR/CCCP was the big-bad in Afghanistan. I suppose that could certainly be seen as a lesson that the enemy of my enemy is not always my friend, and that just because Sun is attacking Micro$oft hegemony with Java doesn't mean that a Sun hegemony would be any better. But I still think it's ironic! :-P Reggie Bautista Smiley Included Maru _ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?]
Ronn!Blankenship wrote: At 08:31 PM 2/28/03 -0500, Jim Sharkey wrote: I was forced to take an APL course in college as part of NJIT's Statistics and Actuarial Science program at the time. I can't say that I remember much about it; it was an introductory course. I don't recall caring for it all that much. I seem to remember it was very...brief, for lack of a better word, at least compared to the other languages I had been exposed to, like Pascal, Fortran, and COBOL. Concise, is how I have heard it described. Concise is an excellent adjective, IIRC. You have to remember, though, this is some 14 years ago. But I believe that's an accurate description. You could do *a lot* with very little code. Jim ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?]
- Original Message - From: Ronn!Blankenship [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2003 12:25 PM Subject: Re: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?] At 08:31 PM 2/28/03 -0500, Jim Sharkey wrote: Ronn!Blankenship wrote: Anyone want to comment here on APL? I was forced to take an APL course in college as part of NJIT's Statistics and Actuarial Science program at the time. I can't say that I remember much about it; it was an introductory course. I don't recall caring for it all that much. I seem to remember it was very...brief, for lack of a better word, at least compared to the other languages I had been exposed to, like Pascal, Fortran, and COBOL. Concise, is how I have heard it described. Indecipherable. George A ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?]
Somebody wrote: Anyone want to comment here on APL? Someone else replied: Concise, is how I have heard it described. And someone else said: Indecipherable. Ronn! responded: But that's part of its appeal: to be able to write a working program which on paper looks like what would result if a cat walked across the math department's secretary's typewriter keyboard while she had the Symbol ball installed, or at best a typical page out of Whitehead and Russell's _Principia Mathematica_. IOW, one that no one else could possibly understand . . . ;-) I still think that a non-English speaker would have a better shot at deciphering APL than, say, Pascal. Or at least APL would be equally indecipherable to speakers of any language :-) Reggie Bautista Smiley Not Snipped Maru _ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?]
The Fool said: Java is the spawn of satan, the ultimate evil. Cambridge University's Computer Laboratory now teach Java as their introductory language. What do you think of that? (When I did my postgrad diploma there they taught us Modula-3 first, then ML, then C, Java and Prolog.) Get a grasp of C. Learn how pointers work. Learn it again. Learn it again. Pointers are certainly useful, but they also make it possible to write code that's very hard to understand. Rich, who is pretty much language-neutral. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?]
From: Richard Baker [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Fool said: Java is the spawn of satan, the ultimate evil. Cambridge University's Computer Laboratory now teach Java as their introductory language. What do you think of that? (When I did my postgrad diploma there they taught us Modula-3 first, then ML, then C, Java and Prolog.) Not Even Sun can use Java: http://www.internalmemos.com/memos/memodetails.php?memo_id=1321 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?]
On 27 Feb 2003 at 3:37, The Fool wrote: From: Richard Baker [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Fool said: Java is the spawn of satan, the ultimate evil. Cambridge University's Computer Laboratory now teach Java as their introductory language. What do you think of that? (When I did my postgrad diploma there they taught us Modula-3 first, then ML, then C, Java and Prolog.) Not Even Sun can use Java: http://www.internalmemos.com/memos/memodetails.php?memo_id=1321 A review of the problem indicates that these issues are not inherent to Java Thanks. But next time read your link. As a note, Starfire Online is being written entirely in Java (I'm an alpha tester on it). Andy Dawn Falcon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?]
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Richard Baker ... Java is the spawn of satan, the ultimate evil. Cambridge University's Computer Laboratory now teach Java as their introductory language. What do you think of that? (When I did my postgrad diploma there they taught us Modula-3 first, then ML, then C, Java and Prolog.) Java is also the most widely used programming language in the world. What the heck is so evil about it? And why isn't anyone singing the praises of Python in this thread?! Even more important, why isn't anyone pointing out that the choice of languages depends very much on the task at hand; Perl is similar but more appropriate to smaller projects. Python makes sense for projects that need to be finished quickly. Java makes sense for enterprise projects that need to be deployed widely. C and C++ make sense for commercial packaged software. Postscript beats everything for page description. R is the language of choice for statistics. What's more, Perl, Python and Java benefit greatly from OPC -- Other Peoples' Code. Who else here ever learned Algol? And how about SPURT, the first language I ever learned. That was Sperry-Univac machine language, in hexadecimal. Nick ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?]
On Thu, Feb 27, 2003 at 07:50:43AM -0800, Nick Arnett wrote: And why isn't anyone singing the praises of Python in this thread?! I did! Kind of. to be finished quickly. Java makes sense for enterprise projects that need to be deployed widely. And isn't too speed critical :) C and C++ make sense for commercial packaged software. Or embedded software (which is where I work). What's more, Perl, Python and Java benefit greatly from OPC -- Other Peoples' Code. But not nearly so much as C. -- Paul Ok I'll 'just hit delete'. You can be 'Delete'. -- Ron SuperTroll Ritzman, NANAE ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?]
From: Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Richard Baker ... Java is the spawn of satan, the ultimate evil. Cambridge University's Computer Laboratory now teach Java as their introductory language. What do you think of that? (When I did my postgrad diploma there they taught us Modula-3 first, then ML, then C, Java and Prolog.) Java is also the most widely used programming language in the world. What the heck is so evil about it? I don't think so. Not by a wide margin. And why isn't anyone singing the praises of Python in this thread?! Even more important, why isn't anyone pointing out that the choice of languages depends very much on the task at hand; Perl is similar but more appropriate to smaller projects. Python makes sense for projects that need to be finished quickly. Java makes sense for enterprise projects that need to be deployed widely. Aside from Java's extremely bad design, no two Java virtually machines actually run Java programs the same way, which means write once, test everwhere (for every single code change). And then there are the different incompatible version, which create a worse kind of 'dll hell' scenerio from different programs which require different versions to work properly. C and C++ make sense for commercial packaged software. Postscript beats everything for page description. R is the language of choice for statistics. What's more, Perl, Python and Java benefit greatly from OPC -- Other Peoples' Code. Who else here ever learned Algol? And how about SPURT, the first language I ever learned. That was Sperry-Univac machine language, in hexadecimal. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?]
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: to understand what the code is doing. Properly formatted, languages with _less_ symbols are more clear. I like, for example, to compare C with Pascal. Sure, I'd agree with that one. But then if you take, say, C and Python... even if people don't know the language as such, anyone reading a Python program stands a very good chance of understanding what the code is doing. But languages are definitely a personal preference. :-) -- Paul ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?]
Paul said: Sure, I'd agree with that one. But then if you take, say, C and Python... even if people don't know the language as such, anyone reading a Python program stands a very good chance of understanding what the code is doing. I think the primary determinant of code readability isn't the language but the choice of variable and function names. I think that with a wise choice almost any language can be used to write code that is easy to understand, whereas choosing nonsense names for functions (as, for example, the NAG library does) or variables (as vast quantities of code littered with variables called tmp or tmp2 or i or whatever seems to do) makes code in any language obscure. Furthermore, I think that the primary purpose of code isn't to communicate ideas from person to machine but from person to person - most of the serious effort that goes into code is the correction of defects during debugging or updating of code during maintenance, and this is much easier when the purposes behind the code are obvious. Most of this work will be done by people other than the original programmer too, so clarity is especially important. (There are, unfortunately, microeconomic benefits for programmers who are the only people able to understand their code...) Rich GCU Code Complete ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?]
On Wednesday, February 26, 2003, at 11:14 am, Alberto Monteiro wrote: I feel I can exercise a lot more control with a computer programming language that uses instructions that resemble natural language. When my wife was doing a two-year computing course she had to learn COBOL. I'd never used COBOL, and when I saw it I found it close to incomprehensible. The only other language I've seen that is anywhere near as ugly is Applescript, which is another language with a friendly, English-like syntax. [1] This is your feeling, but not mine. I think a computer language that adds unnecessary symbols make it harder to understand what the code is doing. Properly formatted, languages with _less_ symbols are more clear. I like, for example, to compare C with Pascal. I much prefer C to Pascal. Or Modula-2 or Ada or any of those other BD languages. [1] Someone was reviewing the manuscript of a book on Applescript. There was some pseudo-code followed by the Applescript code to implement it. The reviewer pointed out that thanks to the friendly, English-like syntax the 'pseudo-code' would actually run and do the job... -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Computers in the future may weigh no more than 1.5 tons. - Popular Mechanics, forecasting the relentless march of science, 1949 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?]
From: William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 14:32:34 + When my wife was doing a two-year computing course she had to learn COBOL. I'd never used COBOL, and when I saw it I found it close to incomprehensible. You have to agree, though, that the *mother* of all incomprehensible programming languages has to be Assembly language. This discussion on programming languages brings back memories!! One of the final programming exercises for my Assembler class was developing a word processor in Assembly code for the IBM 4361. True, it was an interesting exercise in the sense that it helps develop logic and critical thinking skills, but giving birth to that baby was anything but a picinic. :) In our curriculum in the university, the COBOL class was usuallly followed by Databases design, assuming you stuck with the outlined curriculum. The commercial tool of choice at the time for databases management was DBASE3+ (the good ol' days!!), followed by Foxpro. As novices, imagine our shock when we found out that gasp you could create a database and manipulate it in DB3+ with a couple of keystrokes. Try doing that with a mid-80's version of COBOL. Sometimes ignorance is not bliss. ;-) JJ _ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?]
On Wed, Feb 26, 2003 at 02:51:48PM +, Jose J. Ortiz-Carlo wrote: You have to agree, though, that the *mother* of all incomprehensible programming languages has to be Assembly language. No, I disagree, seriously. Assembly language was the easiest language I have learned. Tedious to use, but easy to understand. It followed what was going on in the CPU in a straightforward manner, little abstraction. -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?]
On Wednesday, February 26, 2003, at 03:19 pm, Erik Reuter wrote: On Wed, Feb 26, 2003 at 02:51:48PM +, Jose J. Ortiz-Carlo wrote: You have to agree, though, that the *mother* of all incomprehensible programming languages has to be Assembly language. No, no, no, that has to be Prolog... No, I disagree, seriously. Assembly language was the easiest language I have learned. Tedious to use, but easy to understand. It followed what was going on in the CPU in a straightforward manner, little abstraction. Some assembly languages (such as M68000 and VAX) were designed to be easily written and read by humans (and they both are). I regularly used to check that VAX C was doing a good job of optimising things by reading the dissassembled output. And back when I had an Atari ST I wrote programs in a mixture of C and 68000 assembly language. But modern RISC processors have much less readable assembly language since they were designed to be used with higher level programming tools (optimising compilers and such). -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Misuse of IMPs leads to strange, difficult-to-diagnose bugs. - Anguish et al. Cocoa Programming ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?]
From: Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] No, I disagree, seriously. Assembly language was the easiest language I have learned. Tedious to use, but easy to understand. It followed what was going on in the CPU in a straightforward manner, little abstraction. True, Assembler is a very powerful tool. To be able to track down what is going on inside whatever register or memory address at any given time is very convenient. But what I don't like about is how cumbersome it becomes after a while. Programmers for Assembler used to be paid top bucks. Salary well earned, if you ask me. JJ _ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?]
On Wed, Feb 26, 2003 at 12:39:43PM +, Richard Baker wrote: I think the primary determinant of code readability isn't the language but the choice of variable and function names. I think that with a wise While you're right, some languages tend to encourage clean code more than others. C and Perl can both be incredibly terse, for example, and there's a tendency for advanced users to write code which can't be understood by anybody - including themselves six months later. -- Paul Those who will not study history are condemned to repeat it. And those who do study it, tend to repeat each other. -- Ketil Malde ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?]
On Wed, Feb 26, 2003 at 01:06:39PM -0600, Dan Minette wrote: Out of curiosity, have you ever tried to debug someone else's massive assembly code? No. I think we are considering different things. I agree that would be difficult in assembly unless the original programmer did an extremely good job of writing the code (which is possible, but rare I think). I meant the language is easy to comphrehend and remember and know what it does in my mind and when I write some instructions. It is also easy to read it line by line and understand what each line does. You are talking about understanding the purpose or function of a large amount of code, which I will agree is more difficult in assembly than most languages. From my experience, the ability to use C instead of assembly for all but a few functions cuts software efforts at least by half for massive projects. I agree. I didn't mean to imply otherwise. But I have seen some individual lines of C, and C++, and perl, for example, that took me a LONG time to understand what that line, in isolation, did. I've never had that problem with assembly language. -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?]
Paul said: While you're right, some languages tend to encourage clean code more than others. C and Perl can both be incredibly terse, for example, and there's a tendency for advanced users to write code which can't be understood by anybody - including themselves six months later. That's true. The language design is the main reason that there's an obfuscated C contest but not an obfuscated COBOL contest. Rich, who is always amused to read that simplicity was the overwhelming design criterion for C++. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?]
From: Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Wed, Feb 26, 2003 at 02:51:48PM +, Jose J. Ortiz-Carlo wrote:
You have to agree, though, that the *mother* of all incomprehensible
programming languages has to be Assembly language.
No, I disagree, seriously. Assembly language was the easiest language I
have learned. Tedious to use, but easy to understand. It followed what
was going on in the CPU in a straightforward manner, little
abstraction.
There are less C keywords than ASM instructions. Simple is always
better.
c:
if (PeekMessage(msg, NULL, 0, 0, PM_NOREMOVE)) // message to process
{
if (!GetMessage(msg, NULL, 0, 0)) return msg.wParam;
TranslateMessage(msg);
DispatchMessage(msg);
asm:
; 502 : if (PeekMessage(msg, NULL, 0, 0, PM_NOREMOVE)) //
message to process
00059 6a 00push0
0005b 6a 00push0
0005d 6a 00push0
0005f 6a 00push0
00061 8d 4d e4 lea ecx, DWORD PTR _msg$[ebp]
00064 51 pushecx
00065 ff 15 00 00 00
00 callDWORD PTR [EMAIL PROTECTED]
0006b 85 c0testeax, eax
0006d 74 35je SHORT $L37207
; 504 : if (!GetMessage(msg, NULL, 0, 0)) return
msg.wParam;
0006f 6a 00push0
00071 6a 00push0
00073 6a 00push0
00075 8d 55 e4 lea edx, DWORD PTR _msg$[ebp]
00078 52 pushedx
00079 ff 15 00 00 00
00 callDWORD PTR [EMAIL PROTECTED]
0007f 85 c0testeax, eax
00081 75 08jne SHORT $L37208
00083 8b 45 ec mov eax, DWORD PTR _msg$[ebp+8]
00086 e9 25 01 00 00 jmp $L37206
$L37208:
; 505 : TranslateMessage(msg);
0008b 8d 45 e4 lea eax, DWORD PTR _msg$[ebp]
0008e 50 pusheax
0008f ff 15 00 00 00
00 callDWORD PTR [EMAIL PROTECTED]
; 506 : DispatchMessage(msg);
00095 8d 4d e4 lea ecx, DWORD PTR _msg$[ebp]
00098 51 pushecx
00099 ff 15 00 00 00
00 callDWORD PTR [EMAIL PROTECTED]
___
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Re: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?]
The Fool wrote: There are less C keywords than ASM instructions. Simple is always better. c: [short code sample snipped] asm: [longer but equivalent code sample snipped] Just out of curiosity -- once these examples are both compiled, will they take up an equivalent amount of space and/or take an equivalent amount of time to run? Or more generally, when programming languages include shorter ways of doing things that previous languages, how much of that comes from the writers of the newer languages having a better understanding of how to do things, and how much comes from shortcuts written into the newer language that make coding easier, but make no actual difference after compilation? Reggie Bautista Curiosity Killed The Cat Maru _ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?]
From: Reggie Bautista [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Fool wrote: There are less C keywords than ASM instructions. Simple is always better. c: [short code sample snipped] asm: [longer but equivalent code sample snipped] Just out of curiosity -- once these examples are both compiled, will they take up an equivalent amount of space and/or take an equivalent amount of time to run? They will create the _same_ machine code. Or more generally, when programming languages include shorter ways of doing things that previous languages, how much of that comes from the writers of the newer languages having a better understanding of how to do things, and how much comes from shortcuts written into the newer language that make coding easier, but make no actual difference after compilation? You mean something like this: #define MB(x,y,z,w,q) MB+((z*(q+1)*(w+1))+(y*(w+1))+x) #define XXX(x,y,z) ((*(m.MB((x),(y),(z),(h-X),(h-Y) and later in the code just say a. XXX(3,14,15); which is just the same as putting b. ((*(m.MB+(((z)*((h-Y)+1)*((h-X)+1))+((y)*((h-X)+1))+(x)) Which is essentially a calculation for a pointer to specific integer of data in a 3 dimensional array [i.e. Matrix], (they compile to the same code); Which one do you want to work with hundreds of times in a program, a. or b.? Macros are your friends. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?]
On Wed, Feb 26, 2003 at 05:19:17PM -0600, Reggie Bautista wrote: Just out of curiosity -- once these examples are both compiled, will they take up an equivalent amount of space and/or take an equivalent amount of time to run? These days, generally the version produced by the compiler will be smaller and faster. It's very very hard to properly optimise hand assembler for modern CPUs, there's too much going on. :-) Or more generally, when programming languages include shorter ways of doing things that previous languages, how much of that comes from the writers of the newer languages having a better understanding of how to do things, and how much comes from shortcuts written into the newer language that make coding easier, but make no actual difference after compilation? Uh ... I don't actually see any difference between the two parts of that statement... Generally, languages may include certain features which make it very easy to do certain things - most modern languages have hash table functionality built in, for example. However, it doesn't *really* gain you anything except not having to write the code yourself. :) -- Paul ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?]
From: Reggie Bautista [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?] Date: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 7:09 PM I wrote: Just out of curiosity -- once these examples are both compiled, will they take up an equivalent amount of space and/or take an equivalent amount of time to run? The Fool replied: They will create the _same_ machine code. Thanks. I kind of thought so, but I figured with so much expertise on the list, why not ask? :-) Technically I borrowed it from the C++ compiler output that it spat out. Me again: Or more generally, when programming languages include shorter ways of doing things that previous languages, how much of that comes from the writers of the newer languages having a better understanding of how to do things, and how much comes from shortcuts written into the newer language that make coding easier, but make no actual difference after compilation? The Fool again: You mean something like this: #define MB(x,y,z,w,q) MB+((z*(q+1)*(w+1))+(y*(w+1))+x) #define XXX(x,y,z) ((*(m.MB((x),(y),(z),(h-X),(h-Y) and later in the code just say a. XXX(3,14,15); which is just the same as putting b. ((*(m.MB+(((z)*((h-Y)+1)*((h-X)+1))+((y)*((h-X)+1))+(x)) or something similar to this: 00b49 8b 45 f0 mov eax, DWORD PTR _this$[ebp] 00b4c 33 c9xor ecx, ecx 00b4e 66 8b 48 22 mov cx, WORD PTR [eax+34] 00b52 8b 55 f0 mov edx, DWORD PTR _this$[ebp] 00b55 0f bf 42 4a movsx eax, WORD PTR [edx+74] 00b59 03 45 ec add eax, DWORD PTR _i$[ebp] 00b5c 33 d2xor edx, edx 00b5e 8b 55 f0 mov edx, DWORD PTR _this$[ebp] 00b61 0f bf 52 4c movsx edx, WORD PTR [edx+76] 00b65 03 c1add eax, ecx 00b67 03 d0add edx, eax 00b69 33 c0xor eax, eax 00b6b 8b 45 f0 mov eax, DWORD PTR _this$[ebp] 00b6e 8b 48 08 mov ecx, DWORD PTR [eax+8] 00b71 33 c0xor eax, eax 00b73 66 8b 41 02 mov ax, WORD PTR [ecx+2] 00b77 83 c0 01 add eax, 1 00b7a 0f af d0 imuledx, eax 00b7d 8b 4d f0 mov ecx, DWORD PTR _this$[ebp] 00b80 33 c0xor eax, eax 00b82 66 8b 41 20 mov ax, WORD PTR [ecx+32] 00b86 8b 4d f0 mov ecx, DWORD PTR _this$[ebp] 00b89 0f bf 49 4e movsx ecx, WORD PTR [ecx+78] 00b8d 03 c1add eax, ecx 00b8f 8b 4d f0 mov ecx, DWORD PTR _this$[ebp] 00b92 0f bf 49 50 movsx ecx, WORD PTR [ecx+80] 00b96 03 c1add eax, ecx 00b98 03 55 e0 add edx, DWORD PTR _j$40474[ebp] 00b9b 03 c2add eax, edx 00b9d 33 d2xor edx, edx 00b9f 8b 55 f0 mov edx, DWORD PTR _this$[ebp] 00ba2 8b 4a 0c mov ecx, DWORD PTR [edx+12] 00ba5 33 d2xor edx, edx 00ba7 8a 14 01 mov dl, BYTE PTR [ecx+eax] 00baa 83 ea 01 sub edx, 1 00bad 8b 45 f0 mov eax, DWORD PTR _this$[ebp] 00bb0 89 90 d8 00 00 00 mov DWORD PTR [eax+216], edx Which is essentially a calculation for a pointer to specific integer of data in a 3 dimensional array [i.e. Matrix], (they compile to the same code); Which one do you want to work with hundreds of times in a program, a. or b.? Actually, I was more looking for the info you gave in your first answer above. I certainly understand and agree that the less you have to type within a given language, the better, and with what little coding I do, I definitely use macros and functions as much as possible. I was just checking to make certain that the same kind of thing done in different languages will generally compile to the same machine code, as you say above, or if any recent compilers had found any shortcuts within machine code itself. You answered that question nicely above. That is in NO way _optimised_, which is why I used it as an example. Optimized code would probably seem very differernt. That was a small piece of code. I haven't done much coding in... I guess it's been at least ten years. I'm just getting back into it now, and have another question for you or anyone else. Assuming that I am going to learn both C++ and Java, which would you recommend learning first? I have previous experience with BASIC, FORTRAN, COBOL, and Pascal, but as I said, it's been a while. I've been toying a little lately with both Java and C++, trying to teach myself, but if I dive full bore gung ho into one first, then the other, what order would you recommend? I have no problems with object-oriented programming and have done some pseudo-code with a friend of mine who is just about to graduate from DeVry, so learning either will really
Re: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?]
Reggie Bautista wrote: I haven't done much coding in... I guess it's been at least ten years. I'm just getting back into it now, and have another question for you or anyone else. Assuming that I am going to learn both C++ and Java, which would you recommend learning first? I have previous experience with BASIC, FORTRAN, COBOL, and Pascal, but as I said, it's been a while. I've been toying a little lately with both Java and C++, trying to teach myself, but if I dive full bore gung ho into one first, then the other, what order would you recommend? I have no problems with object-oriented programming and have done some pseudo-code with a friend of mine who is just about to graduate from DeVry, so learning either will really just be about learning the syntax of the language, not about programming concepts in general. Dan's answer to the question, when I asked him, was that C++ is more powerful, but it's harder to shoot yourself in the foot with Java, so which one you tackle first would depend on what you want to be doing with it. That was as decisive as he was going to be on the subject. :) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?]
The Fool wrote: From somewhere: With the proliferation of modern programming languages which seem to have stolen countless features from each other sometimes makes it difficult to select a which language appropriate for your task. This guide is offered as a public service to help programmers in such dilemmas. The key to this guide is to remember its one and only easy-to-remember and abide-by criteria - Shooting Yourself in the Foot. guide snipped Long about the entry for APL, I remembered just *why* it's a bad idea to read it while drinking tea. Fortunately no equipment was harmed. :) Thanks for posting that! Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
