Re: [Callers] Shadow Swing Disclaimers?

[Ron Blechner via Callers]

I think maybe if this were my home dance, and I'd discussed it with
organizers beforehand, maybe. There's so many cans of worms that could
spring open, and it's something organizers would be left dealing with.
On Oct 10, 2015 7:31 PM, "James Saxe via Callers" <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> Back in September, we discussed a topic raised by Maia McCormick:
>
> > ...
> >
> > There do exist some really fabulous shadow-swing dances that I would
> love to be able to call, as long as I could do so without putting anyone in
> an uncomfortable position. Do folks have ideas for ways to mitigate the
> potential harms of shadow swing dances?
>
> [See below for Maia's full message.]
>
> I've had an idea that I don't think anyone mentioned.  First, a
> disclaimer:  I don't imagine that what I'm about to say will
> sway any of you who are dead-set against shadow swings in any
> circumstances.  However, if you feel compelled to reiterate your
> opposition, I hope you'll have the courtesy to respect Maia's
> original request and do so under a different "Subject" line.
>
> Anyway, my idea is:  Use the occasion as a "teachable moment".
>
> When you get to the shadow swing during the walk-through, or
> perhaps during the second walk-through, point out to the
> dancers that they'll be swinging the same person every time,
> and give them a chance to discuss what is or isn't comfortable
> for them.  You might give examples: "Please don't dig you're
> thumb into my neck", "My arm is not a pump handle', "Not too
> fast", "Not so close", etc.  Or you could make general remarks
> about believing you shadow if they say something hurts, or
> about how the person whose less interested in being flirty is
> the one who gets to decide, etc.  And remind people to that
> they can make additional adjustments during the dance.
> Exactly what points you (the caller) want to mention, what
> words you choose, whether to employ humor, etc., will depend
> on what fits your personality, what you see as the likely
> issues in the particular community, how much time you feel
> you can spend before moving along with the dance, etc.
>
> Note that this idea can be applied to shadow interactions
> other than swings.
>
> For example, if a dance has an allemande with shadows, you
> might let women and men (or dancers in those roles) take turns
> showing each other their preferred hand holds, strength of
> connection, etc.  You might encourage them, if they have
> different preferences, to give each other's suggestions a
> fair try, but with the very important proviso (better stated
> sooner than later) that nobody should be pressured into
> doing something they think may be painful.
>
> If the action with shadows is a chain or a right and left
> through, you could give dancers a chance to talk about their
> preferences regarding twirls or about making the courtesy
> turns feel comfortably connected without being *too*
> comfy cosy for anyone's comfort.
>
> You could also occasionally invite people (and give them
> some time) to have such discussions with their partners.
>
> Just a thought.
>
> --Jim
>
> > On Sep 8, 2015, at 8:06 AM, Maia McCormick via Callers <
> callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> >
> > Hey all,
> >
> > First, a disclaimer: Some people on this listserv thing shadow swings
> are problematic. Some don't see any issue with them. This is NOT the
> conversation I want to have in this thread; I ask that you respond to the
> question I'm asking and do not debate my premise--at least not in this
> particular thread. This should help keep this thread on track and hopefully
> reduce excess noise and go-nowhere discussions on this listserv. Thanks!
> >
> > Anyway, the actual question I wanted to ask (whew!)--
> >
> > There do exist some really fabulous shadow-swing dances that I would
> love to be able to call, as long as I could do so without putting anyone in
> an uncomfortable position. Do folks have ideas for ways to mitigate the
> potential harms of shadow swing dances? I was considering, at the beginning
> of the dance, having dancers identify their shadow and mentioning, "this
> will be a shadow swing dance, so if you need to make any changes, do so
> now" (or something like that)--haven't gotten the wording down-pat, but the
> idea is giving dancers advance warning of a shadow swing so they can move
> (thereby changing their shadow) if they need to. Any thoughts on this
> method? Suggestions of others?
> >
> > Cheers.
> > Maia
> > ___
> > Callers mailing list
> > Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> > http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>
> ___
> Callers mailing list
> Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>

Re: [Callers] Shadow Swing Disclaimers?

[Linda Leslie via Callers]

Thanks, Jim! This is a great idea, and I agree with you that interactions with 
one’s shadow might be used as a teachable moment. Your insight is appreciated.
Linda

On Oct 10, 2015, at 7:31 PM, James Saxe via Callers 
 wrote:

> Back in September, we discussed a topic raised by Maia McCormick:
> 
>> ...
>> 
>> There do exist some really fabulous shadow-swing dances that I would love to 
>> be able to call, as long as I could do so without putting anyone in an 
>> uncomfortable position. Do folks have ideas for ways to mitigate the 
>> potential harms of shadow swing dances?
> 
> [See below for Maia's full message.]
> 
> I've had an idea that I don't think anyone mentioned.  First, a
> disclaimer:  I don't imagine that what I'm about to say will
> sway any of you who are dead-set against shadow swings in any
> circumstances.  However, if you feel compelled to reiterate your
> opposition, I hope you'll have the courtesy to respect Maia's
> original request and do so under a different "Subject" line.
> 
> Anyway, my idea is:  Use the occasion as a "teachable moment".
> 
> When you get to the shadow swing during the walk-through, or
> perhaps during the second walk-through, point out to the
> dancers that they'll be swinging the same person every time,
> and give them a chance to discuss what is or isn't comfortable
> for them.  You might give examples: "Please don't dig you're
> thumb into my neck", "My arm is not a pump handle', "Not too
> fast", "Not so close", etc.  Or you could make general remarks
> about believing you shadow if they say something hurts, or
> about how the person whose less interested in being flirty is
> the one who gets to decide, etc.  And remind people to that
> they can make additional adjustments during the dance.
> Exactly what points you (the caller) want to mention, what
> words you choose, whether to employ humor, etc., will depend
> on what fits your personality, what you see as the likely
> issues in the particular community, how much time you feel
> you can spend before moving along with the dance, etc.
> 
> Note that this idea can be applied to shadow interactions
> other than swings.
> 
> For example, if a dance has an allemande with shadows, you
> might let women and men (or dancers in those roles) take turns
> showing each other their preferred hand holds, strength of
> connection, etc.  You might encourage them, if they have
> different preferences, to give each other's suggestions a
> fair try, but with the very important proviso (better stated
> sooner than later) that nobody should be pressured into
> doing something they think may be painful.
> 
> If the action with shadows is a chain or a right and left
> through, you could give dancers a chance to talk about their
> preferences regarding twirls or about making the courtesy
> turns feel comfortably connected without being *too*
> comfy cosy for anyone's comfort.
> 
> You could also occasionally invite people (and give them
> some time) to have such discussions with their partners.
> 
> Just a thought.
> 
> --Jim
> 

Re: [Callers] Shadow Swing Disclaimers?

[James Saxe via Callers]

Back in September, we discussed a topic raised by Maia McCormick:

> ...
> 
> There do exist some really fabulous shadow-swing dances that I would love to 
> be able to call, as long as I could do so without putting anyone in an 
> uncomfortable position. Do folks have ideas for ways to mitigate the 
> potential harms of shadow swing dances?

[See below for Maia's full message.]

I've had an idea that I don't think anyone mentioned.  First, a
disclaimer:  I don't imagine that what I'm about to say will
sway any of you who are dead-set against shadow swings in any
circumstances.  However, if you feel compelled to reiterate your
opposition, I hope you'll have the courtesy to respect Maia's
original request and do so under a different "Subject" line.

Anyway, my idea is:  Use the occasion as a "teachable moment".

When you get to the shadow swing during the walk-through, or
perhaps during the second walk-through, point out to the
dancers that they'll be swinging the same person every time,
and give them a chance to discuss what is or isn't comfortable
for them.  You might give examples: "Please don't dig you're
thumb into my neck", "My arm is not a pump handle', "Not too
fast", "Not so close", etc.  Or you could make general remarks
about believing you shadow if they say something hurts, or
about how the person whose less interested in being flirty is
the one who gets to decide, etc.  And remind people to that
they can make additional adjustments during the dance.
Exactly what points you (the caller) want to mention, what
words you choose, whether to employ humor, etc., will depend
on what fits your personality, what you see as the likely
issues in the particular community, how much time you feel
you can spend before moving along with the dance, etc.

Note that this idea can be applied to shadow interactions
other than swings.

For example, if a dance has an allemande with shadows, you
might let women and men (or dancers in those roles) take turns
showing each other their preferred hand holds, strength of
connection, etc.  You might encourage them, if they have
different preferences, to give each other's suggestions a
fair try, but with the very important proviso (better stated
sooner than later) that nobody should be pressured into
doing something they think may be painful.

If the action with shadows is a chain or a right and left
through, you could give dancers a chance to talk about their
preferences regarding twirls or about making the courtesy
turns feel comfortably connected without being *too*
comfy cosy for anyone's comfort.

You could also occasionally invite people (and give them
some time) to have such discussions with their partners.

Just a thought.

--Jim

> On Sep 8, 2015, at 8:06 AM, Maia McCormick via Callers 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hey all,
> 
> First, a disclaimer: Some people on this listserv thing shadow swings are 
> problematic. Some don't see any issue with them. This is NOT the conversation 
> I want to have in this thread; I ask that you respond to the question I'm 
> asking and do not debate my premise--at least not in this particular thread. 
> This should help keep this thread on track and hopefully reduce excess noise 
> and go-nowhere discussions on this listserv. Thanks!
> 
> Anyway, the actual question I wanted to ask (whew!)--
> 
> There do exist some really fabulous shadow-swing dances that I would love to 
> be able to call, as long as I could do so without putting anyone in an 
> uncomfortable position. Do folks have ideas for ways to mitigate the 
> potential harms of shadow swing dances? I was considering, at the beginning 
> of the dance, having dancers identify their shadow and mentioning, "this will 
> be a shadow swing dance, so if you need to make any changes, do so now" (or 
> something like that)--haven't gotten the wording down-pat, but the idea is 
> giving dancers advance warning of a shadow swing so they can move (thereby 
> changing their shadow) if they need to. Any thoughts on this method? 
> Suggestions of others?
> 
> Cheers.
> Maia
> ___
> Callers mailing list
> Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net

Re: [Callers] Shadow Swing Disclaimers?

[Woody Lane via Callers]

i agree with Eric. The world, even the contra world, is not always a 
comfortable place. Within reason, we should be able to deal with it, 
especially on the dance floor.


Woody

--
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Woody Lane
Caller, Percussive Dancer
Roseburg, Oregon
http://www.woodylanecaller.com
home: 541-440-1926 cell: 541-556-0054
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>


On 9/9/2015 3:39 AM, Eric Black via Callers wrote:
Wow.  ISTM [It Seems To Me] that this is far more responsibility for 
controlling social interpersonal interactions than the programmer 
and/or caller at the mic should have to worry about, even though we do 
worry about such things.


Sorry I don’t have opportunity to participate on this email list more 
often.  That Pesky Day Job [PDJ] and all…


Short response: Don’t point out shadow partner interaction; the 
dancers need to be adult about it, no one listens to the Caller 
anyway, let alone anything said while they’re still lining up.


Longer response:

I really REALLY don’t think that there should be any announcement 
calling attention to the fact that the next dance has interaction with 
someone other than your chosen partner.   What, are we supposed to say 
“This is a duple improper single progression with a shadow who is the 
same active or inactive role one place below [or above] where you line 
up”?


Or should we say “Thank this partner, and ask another partner for the 
next dance. As you line up, if there is someone at the dance here 
tonight with whom you don’t want to dance, please make sure that they 
are in a different longways set than you, or that if they are in the 
same long set as you that they are not in an adjacent hands-four from 
you either up or down as you line up for the dance.”


Are we dance choreographers supposed to create dance sequences that 
don’t have any “serious” interaction with the shadow partner, just in 
case the dancers happen to line up such that someone on the floor has 
an “Ex” as a shadow partner?  Or someone who hasn’t showered recently 
enough?


We already have the problem of MUC rejection of any dance that doesn’t 
include both partner swing and neighbor swing; this seems to be an 
injection of a problem of a potential swing with a neighbor some 
dancers might not want to swing with, yet such swings are still required.

I’m confused…



Yes, I understand the many reasons for not having serious shadow 
interactions, but I am proud that every local dance community where 
I’ve been a member, from NH/Boston to CA/SF, has understood that 
interpersonal conflicts will happen, and yet social interactions are 
required. They understand how to make everyone work together. Family 
schisms are inevitable.  Personal hygiene issues may arise.
I hope that everyone eventually can live the philosophy on Jeremiah’s 
T-shirt: “Dance With Who’s Comin’ Atcha!"


Even long-time couples break up.  It’s painful to the people involved 
and also to everyone surrounding.   We’re all Community here. 
 Our Community is larger and more long-lived than the simple “nuclear 
family” of two parents and 2.3 children.  That means we get to “enjoy” 
many various kinds of family ties, both genetic and non-genetic. 
 The Community connection carries us all through this specific 
break-up episode. The Dance entertains us and it heals us and it 
strengthens The Community.


I say this with a VERY PERSONAL involvement in this community support.

Yes, we DO see what’s going on. Yes, we DO love both of you, even if 
you’ve split apart, and even if there is a court restraining order 
about you both showing up at our dance on the same night (that’s a 
different discussion, and yes, it does happen).


If there’s a personal hygiene problem, sometimes it simply can not be 
helped.  I myself could change shirts whenever the band changes tunes 
and it still would not be often enough. In such a case, please enjoy 
fresh pheromones; fresh sweat can be enjoyable sweat.  If it’s stale 
sweat, then by all means tell the person that a shower with soap would 
make him/her a more enjoyable dance partner. That’s a quiet 
face-to-face conversation.


BUT please dance for several seconds, smile, and move on.
All that aside, any swing can be changed to an allemande right once or 
twice (to taste), or an elbow swing, or a do-si-do, or a gypsy (with 
varying amounts of eye contact, again to taste).  Experienced dancers, 
especially a split dancer couple who encounter each other in line, 
will do whatever they feel comfortable with. What a GREAT opportunity 
to swap roles with your partner, given a little look-ahead!  (“Oh! 
that’s my Ex ahead; let’s swap!” or just take hands with the palm-up 
signal that you’re taking the “Gent” role next time)   Painless and fun.
Never mind that experienced dancers often rewrite the dance to change 
a non-swing dance move into a swing, even in the middle of a hey; it’s 
just as easy to go 

Re: [Callers] Shadow Swing Disclaimers?

[Michael Fuerst via Callers]

The substitution examples you gave are rarely critical to a dance's flow.   
Swings are more likely to be.     If a dance written with a shadow swing flows 
well with something else, the the dance should always be called with the 
something else.    Michael Fuerst      802 N Broadway      Urbana IL 61801  
217 239 5844

Re: [Callers] Shadow Swing Disclaimers?

[Ron Blechner via Callers]

You've never substituted a pass through dosido instead of a dosido pass
through? Or a gypsy/allemande/dosido change if you had too many of one in a
night?

Is it that you think dances written are sacrosanct, or that the shadow
swing is too key to a dance - and is different from more common moves as
I've mentioned?
On Sep 9, 2015 5:49 PM, "Michael Fuerst via Callers" <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> Andrea:   Alternate choreography to replace a shadow swing is  oxymoronic.
>The composer invoked the (morally questionable) shadow swing because it
> fit well into the dance's flow.If one is disposed to substitute for the
> shadow swing, one should just discard  the dance,
>
> Michael Fuerst  802 N Broadway  Urbana IL 61801  217 239 5844
>
> ___
> Callers mailing list
> Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>
>

Re: [Callers] Shadow Swing Disclaimers?

[Andrea Nettleton via Callers]

Richard,
My bad.  That was suggested (by Luke D?), as a triplet-esque solution, whereby 
smaller sets, run shorter, limited the potential for problems.

If the problem is dancers who are new, or easily confused, short sets can 
increase the confusion as you get turned around that much faster, with fewer 
dancers in the middle to reinforce the pattern of the dance.  If the problem is 
a very uncomfortable swing or strong aversion to the shadow, I personally would 
prefer a long set, but alternate choreography to the swing, suggested by the 
caller. 
I definitely think that a shadow becomes an anchor, so suggesting line swapping 
will remove what, for some, will make a confusing dance doable at all.  If I 
were calling, that is one thing I wouldn't choose.

Thanks for the new/missing from summary suggestion.
Andrea

Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask

> On Sep 9, 2015, at 4:45 PM, Richard Fischer via Callers 
>  wrote:
> 
> Here's a suggestion I don't think I've seen in this discussion. If you want 
> to call a dance with a shadow swing, how about save it for time when you can 
> have several shorter sets, and remind couples they can join other sets when 
> they reach the top or the bottom, to get an opportunity to dance with a 
> bigger variety of people. (And of course remind dancers they may have the 
> surprise of a new shadow.)
> 
> Richard
> 
>> On Sep 8, 2015, at 11:06 AM, Maia McCormick via Callers wrote:
>> 
>> Hey all,
>> 
>> First, a disclaimer: Some people on this listserv thing shadow swings are 
>> problematic. Some don't see any issue with them. This is NOT the 
>> conversation I want to have in this thread; I ask that you respond to the 
>> question I'm asking and do not debate my premise--at least not in this 
>> particular thread. This should help keep this thread on track and hopefully 
>> reduce excess noise and go-nowhere discussions on this listserv. Thanks!
>> 
>> Anyway, the actual question I wanted to ask (whew!)--
>> 
>> There do exist some really fabulous shadow-swing dances that I would love to 
>> be able to call, as long as I could do so without putting anyone in an 
>> uncomfortable position. Do folks have ideas for ways to mitigate the 
>> potential harms of shadow swing dances? I was considering, at the beginning 
>> of the dance, having dancers identify their shadow and mentioning, "this 
>> will be a shadow swing dance, so if you need to make any changes, do so now" 
>> (or something like that)--haven't gotten the wording down-pat, but the idea 
>> is giving dancers advance warning of a shadow swing so they can move 
>> (thereby changing their shadow) if they need to. Any thoughts on this 
>> method? Suggestions of others?
>> 
>> Cheers.
>> Maia
>> ___
>> Callers mailing list
>> Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
> 
> ___
> Callers mailing list
> Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net

Re: [Callers] Shadow Swing Disclaimers?

[Richard Fischer via Callers]

You know, just a few minutes ago Alan posted a very reasonable call for 
civility on this list. He specifically mentioned not assuming "that your 
experiences trump their experiences."  I've seen prominent callers call dances 
with shadow swings, and I've seen people enjoy them. Some callers may want to 
use them, some may not. And if we're trying to be civil, let's not see the 
worst in others. ("Your suggestion is a subterfuge to rationalize...")

Richard


On Sep 9, 2015, at 5:13 PM, Michael Fuerst wrote:

> Richard:   Your suggestion is subterfuge to rationalize the caller's doing 
> something (calling a shadow swing dance) that should never be done.
>  
> Michael Fuerst  802 N Broadway  Urbana IL 61801  217 239 5844
> 
> 
> 
> On Wednesday, September 9, 2015 3:45 PM, Richard Fischer via Callers 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Here's a suggestion I don't think I've seen in this discussion. If you want 
> to call a dance with a shadow swing, how about save it for time when you can 
> have several shorter sets, and remind couples they can join other sets when 
> they reach the top or the bottom, to get an opportunity to dance with a 
> bigger variety of people. (And of course remind dancers they may have the 
> surprise of a new shadow.)
> 
> Richard
> 
> On Sep 8, 2015, at 11:06 AM, Maia McCormick via Callers wrote:
> 
>> Hey all,
>> 
>> First, a disclaimer: Some people on this listserv thing shadow swings are 
>> problematic. Some don't see any issue with them. This is NOT the 
>> conversation I want to have in this thread; I ask that you respond to the 
>> question I'm asking and do not debate my premise--at least not in this 
>> particular thread. This should help keep this thread on track and hopefully 
>> reduce excess noise and go-nowhere discussions on this listserv. Thanks!
>> 
>> Anyway, the actual question I wanted to ask (whew!)--
>> 
>> There do exist some really fabulous shadow-swing dances that I would love to 
>> be able to call, as long as I could do so without putting anyone in an 
>> uncomfortable position. Do folks have ideas for ways to mitigate the 
>> potential harms of shadow swing dances? I was considering, at the beginning 
>> of the dance, having dancers identify their shadow and mentioning, "this 
>> will be a shadow swing dance, so if you need to make any changes, do so now" 
>> (or something like that)--haven't gotten the wording down-pat, but the idea 
>> is giving dancers advance warning of a shadow swing so they can move 
>> (thereby changing their shadow) if they need to. Any thoughts on this 
>> method? Suggestions of others?
>> 
>> Cheers.
>> Maia
>> ___
>> Callers mailing list
>> Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
> 
> 
> ___
> Callers mailing list
> Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
> 
> 

Re: [Callers] Shadow Swing Disclaimers?

[Michael Fuerst via Callers]

Eric:    Not all dancers enjoy dancing or skilled enough to dance both roles.   
Dancers should not have to resort to such subterfuge to avoid unpleasantness 
perpetrated by an insensitive caller. Michael Fuerst      802 N Broadway      
Urbana IL 61801  217 239 5844
 


 On Wednesday, September 9, 2015 4:12 PM, Eric Black via Callers 
 wrote:
   

 I like that.  A related tactic is to swap roles with your partner (thereby 
swapping shadows).  And you get to dance both roles, which makes you a better 
and more enjoyable dancer.

-Eric


On Sep 9, 2015, at 1:45 PM, Richard Fischer via Callers 
 wrote:

> Here's a suggestion I don't think I've seen in this discussion. If you want 
> to call a dance with a shadow swing, how about save it for time when you can 
> have several shorter sets, and remind couples they can join other sets when 
> they reach the top or the bottom, to get an opportunity to dance with a 
> bigger variety of people. (And of course remind dancers they may have the 
> surprise of a new shadow.)
> 
> Richard
> 

___
Callers mailing list
Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net

Re: [Callers] Shadow Swing Disclaimers?

[Kalia Kliban via Callers]

On 9/9/2015 2:13 PM, Michael Fuerst via Callers wrote:

Richard:   Your suggestion is subterfuge to rationalize the caller's
doing something (calling a shadow swing dance) that should never be done.
Michael Fuerst  802 N Broadway  Urbana IL 61801  217 239 5844


Never, Michael?  That seems pretty dogmatic.

Kalia

Re: [Callers] Shadow Swing Disclaimers?

[Michael Fuerst via Callers]

Richard:   Your suggestion is subterfuge to rationalize the caller's doing 
something (calling a shadow swing dance) that should never be done. Michael 
Fuerst      802 N Broadway      Urbana IL 61801  217 239 5844 


 On Wednesday, September 9, 2015 3:45 PM, Richard Fischer via Callers 
 wrote:
   

 Here's a suggestion I don't think I've seen in this discussion. If you want to 
call a dance with a shadow swing, how about save it for time when you can have 
several shorter sets, and remind couples they can join other sets when they 
reach the top or the bottom, to get an opportunity to dance with a bigger 
variety of people. (And of course remind dancers they may have the surprise of 
a new shadow.)
Richard
On Sep 8, 2015, at 11:06 AM, Maia McCormick via Callers wrote:

Hey all,
First, a disclaimer: Some people on this listserv thing shadow swings are 
problematic. Some don't see any issue with them. This is NOT the conversation I 
want to have in this thread; I ask that you respond to the question I'm asking 
and do not debate my premise--at least not in this particular thread. This 
should help keep this thread on track and hopefully reduce excess noise and 
go-nowhere discussions on this listserv. Thanks!
Anyway, the actual question I wanted to ask (whew!)--
There do exist some really fabulous shadow-swing dances that I would love to be 
able to call, as long as I could do so without putting anyone in an 
uncomfortable position. Do folks have ideas for ways to mitigate the potential 
harms of shadow swing dances? I was considering, at the beginning of the dance, 
having dancers identify their shadow and mentioning, "this will be a shadow 
swing dance, so if you need to make any changes, do so now" (or something like 
that)--haven't gotten the wording down-pat, but the idea is giving dancers 
advance warning of a shadow swing so they can move (thereby changing their 
shadow) if they need to. Any thoughts on this method? Suggestions of others?
Cheers.Maia___
Callers mailing list
Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net



___
Callers mailing list
Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net

Re: [Callers] Shadow Swing Disclaimers?

[Eric Black via Callers]

I like that.  A related tactic is to swap roles with your partner (thereby 
swapping shadows).  And you get to dance both roles, which makes you a better 
and more enjoyable dancer.

-Eric


On Sep 9, 2015, at 1:45 PM, Richard Fischer via Callers 
 wrote:

> Here's a suggestion I don't think I've seen in this discussion. If you want 
> to call a dance with a shadow swing, how about save it for time when you can 
> have several shorter sets, and remind couples they can join other sets when 
> they reach the top or the bottom, to get an opportunity to dance with a 
> bigger variety of people. (And of course remind dancers they may have the 
> surprise of a new shadow.)
> 
> Richard
> 

Re: [Callers] Shadow Swing Disclaimers?

[Richard Fischer via Callers]

Here's a suggestion I don't think I've seen in this discussion. If you want to 
call a dance with a shadow swing, how about save it for time when you can have 
several shorter sets, and remind couples they can join other sets when they 
reach the top or the bottom, to get an opportunity to dance with a bigger 
variety of people. (And of course remind dancers they may have the surprise of 
a new shadow.)

Richard

On Sep 8, 2015, at 11:06 AM, Maia McCormick via Callers wrote:

> Hey all,
> 
> First, a disclaimer: Some people on this listserv thing shadow swings are 
> problematic. Some don't see any issue with them. This is NOT the conversation 
> I want to have in this thread; I ask that you respond to the question I'm 
> asking and do not debate my premise--at least not in this particular thread. 
> This should help keep this thread on track and hopefully reduce excess noise 
> and go-nowhere discussions on this listserv. Thanks!
> 
> Anyway, the actual question I wanted to ask (whew!)--
> 
> There do exist some really fabulous shadow-swing dances that I would love to 
> be able to call, as long as I could do so without putting anyone in an 
> uncomfortable position. Do folks have ideas for ways to mitigate the 
> potential harms of shadow swing dances? I was considering, at the beginning 
> of the dance, having dancers identify their shadow and mentioning, "this will 
> be a shadow swing dance, so if you need to make any changes, do so now" (or 
> something like that)--haven't gotten the wording down-pat, but the idea is 
> giving dancers advance warning of a shadow swing so they can move (thereby 
> changing their shadow) if they need to. Any thoughts on this method? 
> Suggestions of others?
> 
> Cheers.
> Maia
> ___
> Callers mailing list
> Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net

Re: [Callers] Shadow Swing Disclaimers?

[Eric Black via Callers]

Interesting.  I’ve received multiple direct emails from people saying variously 
that:

  - my comment was off-topic because Maia requested responses to be about 
whether to announce it or not
and not about the merits or not of shadow swings

  - my comment misses the point because some people have had (or fear they 
might have) an unpleasant
shadow interaction, so the Caller needs to accommodate that fear

I repeat.  Wow.  Perhaps I was a little too subtle in what I wrote.

But no one listens to the Caller anyway…

To state it more clearly:  I think it is a mistake to announce something like 
"the next dance has a shadow swing,
and your shadow is the person in the next hands-4 facing you (or in the hands-4 
behind you looking at your back),
so check them out and if it’s someone you don’t want to encounter for 4 seconds 
each time through the music,
ask the other couple in your hands-4 if they would agree to circle left 1/2 
before the dance starts”.

Doing so would broadcast an entirely incorrect and inappropriate message about 
the dance community.

In my experience, people who don’t want to encounter another individual as a 
shadow, or even as a neighbor,
tend to take care to line up in a different set from their Ex, or that 
“creeper”, even if there is no shadow in the
particular dance.

If there’s only 1 set, that’s a problem, eh?  If there is a creeper in each 
set, that’s a problem also.  Again, that’s
something the community needs to treat, and there’s really nothing the caller 
that evening can do even
with the power of the bully pulpit.

The most the caller can do in such cases is exert  a gentle nudge on the side 
of that asteroid, and perhaps over
time, given enough nudges, the asteroid’s path will change.

Maybe say things like “contra dancers are very courteous and friendly people” 
will, over time, encourage people
to live up to that description.  Sometimes saying “swing with your shadow in 
such a way that they’ll look forward
to coming back to you next time through the music” also might, over time, 
instill a more positive image to exhibit.

As much as callers might like to think that they guide and even control the 
dance community, it just ain’t so.
All we can do is suggest.  And as has been said before, no one listens to the 
Caller.

-Eric



On Sep 9, 2015, at 6:39 AM, Eric Black via Callers 
 wrote:
> Wow.  ISTM [It Seems To Me] that this is far more responsibility for 
> controlling social interpersonal interactions than the programmer and/or 
> caller at the mic should have to worry about, even though we do worry about 
> such things.
> 
> Sorry I don’t have opportunity to participate on this email list more often.  
> That Pesky Day Job [PDJ] and all…
> 
> Short response: Don’t point out shadow partner interaction; the dancers need 
> to be adult about it, no one listens to the Caller anyway, let alone anything 
> said while they’re still lining up.
> 

Re: [Callers] Shadow Swing Disclaimers?

[Ron Blechner via Callers]

I've had the experience where my shadow was a creeper. And another time
they were an awful swing. They were both awful experiences.

But Maia asked specifically this thread not be about the merits of shadow
swings or not, but instead about disclaimers.
On Sep 9, 2015 11:54 AM, "Martha Wild via Callers" <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> Hear, hear, Eric! My sentiments exactly.
>
> And for a slightly different perspective:  I danced a shadow dance at Glen
> Echo some years back, and after swinging my shadow a few times, we both
> suddenly realized we knew each other from way back (my how we change)!
> Every swing was an opportunity to catch up a bit more and a bit more as we
> continued the dance - it was wonderful! So good things can happen, too.
>
> Martha
>
> On Sep 9, 2015, at 6:39 AM, Eric Black via Callers wrote:
>
> Wow.  ISTM [It Seems To Me] that this is far more responsibility for
> controlling social interpersonal interactions than the programmer and/or
> caller at the mic should have to worry about, even though we do worry about
> such things.
>
> Sorry I don’t have opportunity to participate on this email list more
> often.  That Pesky Day Job [PDJ] and all…
>
> Short response: Don’t point out shadow partner interaction; the dancers
> need to be adult about it, no one listens to the Caller anyway, let alone
> anything said while they’re still lining up.
>
> Longer response:
>
> I really REALLY don’t think that there should be any announcement calling
> attention to the fact that the next dance has interaction with someone
> other than your chosen partner.   What, are we supposed to say “This is a
> duple improper single progression with a shadow who is the same active or
> inactive role one place below [or above] where you line up”?
>
> Or should we say “Thank this partner, and ask another partner for the next
> dance. As you line up, if there is someone at the dance here tonight with
> whom you don’t want to dance, please make sure that they are in a different
> longways set than you, or that if they are in the same long set as you that
> they are not in an adjacent hands-four from you either up or down as you
> line up for the dance.”
>
> Are we dance choreographers supposed to create dance sequences that don’t
> have any “serious” interaction with the shadow partner, just in case the
> dancers happen to line up such that someone on the floor has an “Ex” as a
> shadow partner?  Or someone who hasn’t showered recently enough?
>
> We already have the problem of MUC rejection of any dance that doesn’t
> include both partner swing and neighbor swing; this seems to be an
> injection of a problem of a potential swing with a neighbor some dancers
> might not want to swing with, yet such swings are still required.
>
> I’m confused…
>
> 
>
> Yes, I understand the many reasons for not having serious shadow
> interactions, but I am proud that every local dance community where I’ve
> been a member, from NH/Boston to CA/SF, has understood that interpersonal
> conflicts will happen, and yet social interactions are required. They
> understand how to make everyone work together. Family schisms are
> inevitable.  Personal hygiene issues may arise.
>
> I hope that everyone eventually can live the philosophy on Jeremiah’s
> T-shirt: “Dance With Who’s Comin’ Atcha!"
>
> Even long-time couples break up.  It’s painful to the people involved and
> also to everyone surrounding.   We’re all Community here.  Our Community is
> larger and more long-lived than the simple “nuclear family” of two parents
> and 2.3 children.  That means we get to “enjoy” many various kinds of
> family ties, both genetic and non-genetic.  The Community connection
> carries us all through this specific break-up episode. The Dance entertains
> us and it heals us and it strengthens The Community.
>
> I say this with a VERY PERSONAL involvement in this community support.
>
> Yes, we DO see what’s going on. Yes, we DO love both of you, even if
> you’ve split apart, and even if there is a court restraining order about
> you both showing up at our dance on the same night (that’s a different
> discussion, and yes, it does happen).
>
> If there’s a personal hygiene problem, sometimes it simply can not be
> helped.  I myself could change shirts whenever the band changes tunes and
> it still would not be often enough. In such a case, please enjoy fresh
> pheromones; fresh sweat can be enjoyable sweat.  If it’s stale sweat, then
> by all means tell the person that a shower with soap would make him/her a
> more enjoyable dance partner. That’s a quiet face-to-face conversation.
>
> BUT please dance for several seconds, smile, and move on.
>
> All that aside, any swing can be changed to an allemande right once or
> twice (to taste), or an elbow swing, or a do-si-do, or a gypsy (with
> varying amounts of eye contact, again to taste).  Experienced dancers,
> especially a split dancer couple who encounter each other in line, will do
> whatever they 

Re: [Callers] Shadow Swing Disclaimers?

[Martha Wild via Callers]

Hear, hear, Eric! My sentiments exactly. 

And for a slightly different perspective:  I danced a shadow dance at Glen Echo 
some years back, and after swinging my shadow a few times, we both suddenly 
realized we knew each other from way back (my how we change)! Every swing was 
an opportunity to catch up a bit more and a bit more as we continued the dance 
- it was wonderful! So good things can happen, too.

Martha

On Sep 9, 2015, at 6:39 AM, Eric Black via Callers wrote:

> Wow.  ISTM [It Seems To Me] that this is far more responsibility for 
> controlling social interpersonal interactions than the programmer and/or 
> caller at the mic should have to worry about, even though we do worry about 
> such things.
> 
> Sorry I don’t have opportunity to participate on this email list more often.  
> That Pesky Day Job [PDJ] and all…
> 
> Short response: Don’t point out shadow partner interaction; the dancers need 
> to be adult about it, no one listens to the Caller anyway, let alone anything 
> said while they’re still lining up.
> 
> Longer response:
> 
> I really REALLY don’t think that there should be any announcement calling 
> attention to the fact that the next dance has interaction with someone other 
> than your chosen partner.   What, are we supposed to say “This is a duple 
> improper single progression with a shadow who is the same active or inactive 
> role one place below [or above] where you line up”?  
> 
> Or should we say “Thank this partner, and ask another partner for the next 
> dance. As you line up, if there is someone at the dance here tonight with 
> whom you don’t want to dance, please make sure that they are in a different 
> longways set than you, or that if they are in the same long set as you that 
> they are not in an adjacent hands-four from you either up or down as you line 
> up for the dance.”
> 
> Are we dance choreographers supposed to create dance sequences that don’t 
> have any “serious” interaction with the shadow partner, just in case the 
> dancers happen to line up such that someone on the floor has an “Ex” as a 
> shadow partner?  Or someone who hasn’t showered recently enough?
> 
> We already have the problem of MUC rejection of any dance that doesn’t 
> include both partner swing and neighbor swing; this seems to be an injection 
> of a problem of a potential swing with a neighbor some dancers might not want 
> to swing with, yet such swings are still required.
>  
> I’m confused…
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I understand the many reasons for not having serious shadow 
> interactions, but I am proud that every local dance community where I’ve been 
> a member, from NH/Boston to CA/SF, has understood that interpersonal 
> conflicts will happen, and yet social interactions are required. They 
> understand how to make everyone work together. Family schisms are inevitable. 
>  Personal hygiene issues may arise.
>  
> I hope that everyone eventually can live the philosophy on Jeremiah’s 
> T-shirt: “Dance With Who’s Comin’ Atcha!"
> 
> Even long-time couples break up.  It’s painful to the people involved and 
> also to everyone surrounding.   We’re all Community here.  Our Community is 
> larger and more long-lived than the simple “nuclear family” of two parents 
> and 2.3 children.  That means we get to “enjoy” many various kinds of family 
> ties, both genetic and non-genetic.  The Community connection carries us all 
> through this specific break-up episode. The Dance entertains us and it heals 
> us and it strengthens The Community.
> 
> I say this with a VERY PERSONAL involvement in this community support.
> 
> Yes, we DO see what’s going on. Yes, we DO love both of you, even if you’ve 
> split apart, and even if there is a court restraining order about you both 
> showing up at our dance on the same night (that’s a different discussion, and 
> yes, it does happen).
> 
> If there’s a personal hygiene problem, sometimes it simply can not be helped. 
>  I myself could change shirts whenever the band changes tunes and it still 
> would not be often enough. In such a case, please enjoy fresh pheromones; 
> fresh sweat can be enjoyable sweat.  If it’s stale sweat, then by all means 
> tell the person that a shower with soap would make him/her a more enjoyable 
> dance partner. That’s a quiet face-to-face conversation.
> 
> BUT please dance for several seconds, smile, and move on.
>  
> All that aside, any swing can be changed to an allemande right once or twice 
> (to taste), or an elbow swing, or a do-si-do, or a gypsy (with varying 
> amounts of eye contact, again to taste).  Experienced dancers, especially a 
> split dancer couple who encounter each other in line, will do whatever they 
> feel comfortable with. What a GREAT opportunity to swap roles with your 
> partner, given a little look-ahead!  (“Oh! that’s my Ex ahead; let’s swap!” 
> or just take hands with the palm-up signal that you’re taking the “Gent” role 
> next time)   Painless and fun.
>  
> Never mind that 

Re: [Callers] Shadow Swing Disclaimers?

[Lindsay Morris via Callers]

I'm with Eric on this one. Nicely stated.


Lindsay Morris
CEO, TSMworks
Tel. 1-859-539-9900
lind...@tsmworks.com

On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 9:39 AM, Eric Black via Callers <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> Wow.  ISTM [It Seems To Me] that this is far more responsibility for
> controlling social interpersonal interactions than the programmer and/or
> caller at the mic should have to worry about, even though we do worry about
> such things.
>
> Sorry I don’t have opportunity to participate on this email list more
> often.  That Pesky Day Job [PDJ] and all…
>
> Short response: Don’t point out shadow partner interaction; the dancers
> need to be adult about it, no one listens to the Caller anyway, let alone
> anything said while they’re still lining up.
>
> Longer response:
>
> I really REALLY don’t think that there should be any announcement calling
> attention to the fact that the next dance has interaction with someone
> other than your chosen partner.   What, are we supposed to say “This is a
> duple improper single progression with a shadow who is the same active or
> inactive role one place below [or above] where you line up”?
>
> Or should we say “Thank this partner, and ask another partner for the next
> dance. As you line up, if there is someone at the dance here tonight with
> whom you don’t want to dance, please make sure that they are in a different
> longways set than you, or that if they are in the same long set as you that
> they are not in an adjacent hands-four from you either up or down as you
> line up for the dance.”
>
> Are we dance choreographers supposed to create dance sequences that don’t
> have any “serious” interaction with the shadow partner, just in case the
> dancers happen to line up such that someone on the floor has an “Ex” as a
> shadow partner?  Or someone who hasn’t showered recently enough?
>
> We already have the problem of MUC rejection of any dance that doesn’t
> include both partner swing and neighbor swing; this seems to be an
> injection of a problem of a potential swing with a neighbor some dancers
> might not want to swing with, yet such swings are still required.
>
> I’m confused…
>
> 
>
> Yes, I understand the many reasons for not having serious shadow
> interactions, but I am proud that every local dance community where I’ve
> been a member, from NH/Boston to CA/SF, has understood that interpersonal
> conflicts will happen, and yet social interactions are required. They
> understand how to make everyone work together. Family schisms are
> inevitable.  Personal hygiene issues may arise.
>
> I hope that everyone eventually can live the philosophy on Jeremiah’s
> T-shirt: “Dance With Who’s Comin’ Atcha!"
>
> Even long-time couples break up.  It’s painful to the people involved and
> also to everyone surrounding.   We’re all Community here.  Our Community is
> larger and more long-lived than the simple “nuclear family” of two parents
> and 2.3 children.  That means we get to “enjoy” many various kinds of
> family ties, both genetic and non-genetic.  The Community connection
> carries us all through this specific break-up episode. The Dance entertains
> us and it heals us and it strengthens The Community.
>
> I say this with a VERY PERSONAL involvement in this community support.
>
> Yes, we DO see what’s going on. Yes, we DO love both of you, even if
> you’ve split apart, and even if there is a court restraining order about
> you both showing up at our dance on the same night (that’s a different
> discussion, and yes, it does happen).
>
> If there’s a personal hygiene problem, sometimes it simply can not be
> helped.  I myself could change shirts whenever the band changes tunes and
> it still would not be often enough. In such a case, please enjoy fresh
> pheromones; fresh sweat can be enjoyable sweat.  If it’s stale sweat, then
> by all means tell the person that a shower with soap would make him/her a
> more enjoyable dance partner. That’s a quiet face-to-face conversation.
>
> BUT please dance for several seconds, smile, and move on.
>
> All that aside, any swing can be changed to an allemande right once or
> twice (to taste), or an elbow swing, or a do-si-do, or a gypsy (with
> varying amounts of eye contact, again to taste).  Experienced dancers,
> especially a split dancer couple who encounter each other in line, will do
> whatever they feel comfortable with. What a GREAT opportunity to swap roles
> with your partner, given a little look-ahead!  (“Oh! that’s my Ex ahead;
> let’s swap!” or just take hands with the palm-up signal that you’re taking
> the “Gent” role next time)   Painless and fun.
>
> Never mind that experienced dancers often rewrite the dance to change a
> non-swing dance move into a swing, even in the middle of a hey; it’s just
> as easy to go the other direction, to reduce interaction.  That’s what
> dancers do. Just Be In The Right Place At The Right Time.
>
> We always say that a neighbor interaction is “just one 

Re: [Callers] Shadow Swing Disclaimers?

[Eric Black via Callers]

Wow.  ISTM [It Seems To Me] that this is far more responsibility for 
controlling social interpersonal interactions than the programmer and/or caller 
at the mic should have to worry about, even though we do worry about such 
things.

Sorry I don’t have opportunity to participate on this email list more often.  
That Pesky Day Job [PDJ] and all…

Short response: Don’t point out shadow partner interaction; the dancers need to 
be adult about it, no one listens to the Caller anyway, let alone anything said 
while they’re still lining up.

Longer response:

I really REALLY don’t think that there should be any announcement calling 
attention to the fact that the next dance has interaction with someone other 
than your chosen partner.   What, are we supposed to say “This is a duple 
improper single progression with a shadow who is the same active or inactive 
role one place below [or above] where you line up”?  

Or should we say “Thank this partner, and ask another partner for the next 
dance. As you line up, if there is someone at the dance here tonight with whom 
you don’t want to dance, please make sure that they are in a different longways 
set than you, or that if they are in the same long set as you that they are not 
in an adjacent hands-four from you either up or down as you line up for the 
dance.”

Are we dance choreographers supposed to create dance sequences that don’t have 
any “serious” interaction with the shadow partner, just in case the dancers 
happen to line up such that someone on the floor has an “Ex” as a shadow 
partner?  Or someone who hasn’t showered recently enough?

We already have the problem of MUC rejection of any dance that doesn’t include 
both partner swing and neighbor swing; this seems to be an injection of a 
problem of a potential swing with a neighbor some dancers might not want to 
swing with, yet such swings are still required.
 
I’m confused…



Yes, I understand the many reasons for not having serious shadow interactions, 
but I am proud that every local dance community where I’ve been a member, from 
NH/Boston to CA/SF, has understood that interpersonal conflicts will happen, 
and yet social interactions are required. They understand how to make everyone 
work together. Family schisms are inevitable.  Personal hygiene issues may 
arise.
 
I hope that everyone eventually can live the philosophy on Jeremiah’s T-shirt: 
“Dance With Who’s Comin’ Atcha!"

Even long-time couples break up.  It’s painful to the people involved and also 
to everyone surrounding.   We’re all Community here.  Our Community is larger 
and more long-lived than the simple “nuclear family” of two parents and 2.3 
children.  That means we get to “enjoy” many various kinds of family ties, both 
genetic and non-genetic.  The Community connection carries us all through this 
specific break-up episode. The Dance entertains us and it heals us and it 
strengthens The Community.

I say this with a VERY PERSONAL involvement in this community support.

Yes, we DO see what’s going on. Yes, we DO love both of you, even if you’ve 
split apart, and even if there is a court restraining order about you both 
showing up at our dance on the same night (that’s a different discussion, and 
yes, it does happen).

If there’s a personal hygiene problem, sometimes it simply can not be helped.  
I myself could change shirts whenever the band changes tunes and it still would 
not be often enough. In such a case, please enjoy fresh pheromones; fresh sweat 
can be enjoyable sweat.  If it’s stale sweat, then by all means tell the person 
that a shower with soap would make him/her a more enjoyable dance partner. 
That’s a quiet face-to-face conversation.

BUT please dance for several seconds, smile, and move on.
 
All that aside, any swing can be changed to an allemande right once or twice 
(to taste), or an elbow swing, or a do-si-do, or a gypsy (with varying amounts 
of eye contact, again to taste).  Experienced dancers, especially a split 
dancer couple who encounter each other in line, will do whatever they feel 
comfortable with. What a GREAT opportunity to swap roles with your partner, 
given a little look-ahead!  (“Oh! that’s my Ex ahead; let’s swap!” or just take 
hands with the palm-up signal that you’re taking the “Gent” role next time)   
Painless and fun.
 
Never mind that experienced dancers often rewrite the dance to change a 
non-swing dance move into a swing, even in the middle of a hey; it’s just as 
easy to go the other direction, to reduce interaction.  That’s what dancers do. 
Just Be In The Right Place At The Right Time.

We always say that a neighbor interaction is “just one time through the tune, 
just 30 seconds”.  Well, a shadow interaction is generally at most one 8-count 
thing; 4 seconds repeated every once in a while as wonderful music plays.  
Maybe double that for some dances, so then about 8 seconds out of every half 
minute or so.
 
It seems to me that we as social animals should be able to deal