Re: FPShowHideFontPanel crash on Sierra

[Mark Lucas]

> However, I want to emphasize that my major goal here is to explain the 
> situation as it currently exists, so that you can more effectively work with 
> Apple to get what you want.

I for one appreciate your taking time (as usual) to lay this out for us and 
offer constructive suggestions about how to navigate the system effectively. If 
any of the longtime denizens of this list were ever put in charge of Apple, I’m 
certain our first official act would be to commission a ginormous bronze statue 
of you for the quad. Not to suggest you’re anything like alone among Apple 
employees I’ve had the pleasure of dealing with in your dedication and 
helpfulness, but as our ‘patron saint’ your remarkable and relentless energy 
and generosity (even as glory beckoned elsewhere) have been absolutely 
invaluable and indispensable to the grizzled weary oarsmen (uh, sorry Ann, 
oarspersons?) banished by mad gods to this ship of lost souls… ;-)

Of course we have our own online system for tracking bugs built right into the 
apps, but in spite of this (as you of all people can doubtless appreciate) 
getting folks to actually use it is like herding cats (probably in no small 
measure because it’s under the Help menu, where alas Mac users are relentlessly 
conditioned to expect little but annoyance and frustration…). However if bug 
reports are really weighted the way you describe (rather than simply tallied) 
then I guess I need to figure out how to get them to complain more!

Seriously though I’m sure we all grok priority. But systemic bias in what goes 
onto the scale inevitably distorts even careful measurement and triage.

Though I can’t speak for other commenters, personally I’d ask only that when 
making these decisions the Powers That Be take a moment to consider a few 
simple points…

First, none of us WANT to be here. We’re just stuck because we naively 
swallowed Steve’s self-serving fairy tale about Carbon, and now (frequently as 
a direct result) lack the resources to port our often hundreds of man-years 
worth of exquisitely tuned legacy code to Cocoa (at least not unless we want to 
spend literally the entire remainder of our waking lives in a coding trance 
with little realistic prospect of financial gain just to produce a Mac-only app 
that’s Unicode-savvy and slightly prettier but ten times bigger and slower and 
only runs on last year’s OS and up…). But we're also too emotionally engaged 
and personally responsible (and just plain stubborn) to simply throw up our 
hands and walk away, abandoning the tight-knit communities of users we’ve known 
for decades who've come to rely on us. In short we're invested to the hilt, 
have no Plan B, and so can’t help but take this stuff VERY personally...

Second, absence of evidence is not the same as evidence of absence 
(particularly if you insist on looking only where you expect to find it). It's 
cold comfort to learn Apple relies scrupulously (and in its view ‘impartially’) 
on a system we apparently all know hopelessly undercounts us (however 
unintentionally). Those whose oxen are being gored fervently believe that the 
‘minor collateral damage' Apple regularly inflicts on them nowadays would seem 
much less minor viewed through the other end of that telescope, but like 
Galileo find it oddly difficult to persuade church authorities to actually look.

Finally, when they write off new bugs added to old API just because it took a 
while for fickle winds to carry the wails and laments of the far-flung stricken 
to the ramparts of Cupertino, they may effectively be destroying entire 
ecosystems built up over decades around rich, powerful, and beloved apps now 
senselessly and wastefully crippled or rendered useless with the stroke of a 
key. Down the drain along with that goes the life’s work and livelihood of lots 
of nice people just as insanely dedicated to specialized Macintosh user 
communities that depend on them as you are (though probably less marketable, 
and with much crappier pension plans…). Extended online 'tribes' like these are 
where experienced users turn to offer or obtain answers and guidance regarding 
all things Macintosh, so the impact of torpedoing one typically extends far 
beyond the scope of the particular app in question because it deprives members 
of a vital ‘crowd-based’ knowledge resource that can’t easily be replaced. That 
kind of extinction-level event makes the overall Macintosh community poorer, 
weaker, sadder, angrier, more cynical, less diverse, less attractive, less 
enjoyable, and ultimately less viable and sustainable. It sucks hugely for all 
involved even when it’s genuinely necessary, but far more so when it manifestly 
isn’t.

Though they’re admittedly challenging to quantify, if there’s no cells anywhere 
on your spreadsheet in which to somehow enter these factors then the answer it 
spits out is bound to be epically, tragically wrong at least some of the time 
almost no matter WHAT you plug into the ’# of radar 

Re: FPShowHideFontPanel crash on Sierra

[Martin Crane]

> On 30 Nov 2016, at 07:57, eri...@apple.com wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Nov 29, 2016, at 2:24 PM, Martin Crane > > wrote:
>> 
>> Just chiming in here… my app has a built-in text editor and Font Panel just 
>> doesn’t work at all any more - nothing happens - but the spelling panel and 
>> Check Spelling options crash my app. I’m guessing these are related? I will 
>> log radars and post here if it helps?
> 
> Yes, please log Radars with the crash reports. I briefly looked around Yummy 
> FTP and saw the Font Panel menu item in the Edit menu, but it wasn’t ever 
> enabled, so I couldn’t check for crashes - I assume there’s some sequence in 
> the UI that will make it available.
> 
> -eric
> 

rdar://29440185  Font panel and Spelling options 
non-functional/crash in Carbon apps

Thanks, as aways :)
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RE: FPShowHideFontPanel crash on Sierra

[Ann K. Blombach]

Just want to add yet another voice to the growing chorus.  On the bright
side, Apple has come a long way since I started developing for Macintosh
back in 1985.  My very first system bug report cost me money because the
only way to file it was to pay for a Developer Tech Support Incident.  My
second system bug report worked the same way except that time Apple refunded
my money because I was the one who came up with a workaround solution for
the system bug.  So it's better than it used to be, but still definitely not
good.  Maybe it's because of my previous bad experiences with Apple, but
whenever I run into something that looks like a system bug, I work night and
day to find a workaround myself instead of taking the problem to Apple.  I'm
sure there are others like me out there.  Also, it at least used to be
Apple's policy that if one bug report had been filed on about a specific
problem, we were supposed to keep checking to see how progress on that
report was coming along--NOT to file another bug report ourselves.  So
relying on how many bug reports are filed on the same bug seems like a very
bad idea.

Having said all that, Apple folks like Eric are wonderful.  They're the
reason I've stuck with Apple as long as I have instead of giving up in total
despair.  A few very helpful folk can help to make up for a multitude of
neglect and mistreatment by others.  A big thank you to Eric and the few
other people I've dealt with at Apple who are like him.  

Ann

-Original Message-
From: Jeff Evans [mailto:jev...@ars-nova.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2016 5:18 PM
To: Mark Lucas <catkee...@aol.com>
Cc: carbon-dev@lists.apple.com
Subject: Re: FPShowHideFontPanel crash on Sierra

I hope it is not misuse of this list to add another voice to that of Mark -
we received two user complaints about the font panel problem in our legacy
apps, but it must have bothered many many more who didn't complain or who
didn't realize the problem was with the font panel - as far as they were
concerned, the computer or our software was just acting up. It took me a
while to realize the problem was in system code, and I didn't file a report
either; by that time Apple had heard about it.  So certainly one should not
take a low number of bug reports as evidence that a problem is not causing
much trouble. Especially something so integral to so many older apps; any
program offering a font choice is likely to have people using that
mechanism.

Jeff


On Nov 29, 2016, at 2:02 PM, Mark Lucas wrote:


> On Nov 29, 2016, at 3:00 PM, carbon-dev-requ...@lists.apple.com wrote:
> 
> the fact that it existed through at least one major OS release prior to
being reported indicates that it's not causing big problems for lots of
people - if it were, we'd have a lot more reports.

Hi Eric,

Please don't take this personally, but while that's apparently a common
perception at Apple I feel compelled to respectfully point out that it's not
even remotely true.

For example no matter how many users of our authoring tool experience a
given problem, you're vanishingly unlikely to receive more than one bug
report documenting it. That's because few of these folks have developer
accounts, and fewer of those who do will ever file a bug themselves about it
(because they're busy, and without the source code they literally have no
clue what's going wrong, where, or why, and use these tools specifically to
avoid needing to). So anything I file a report against (unless explicitly
noted otherwise) typically affects hundreds or thousands of loyal longtime
Mac developers all over the world. But if I can't fix or work around a
problem in Apple's code they complain only to ME, not to you (and I file the
aforementioned lonely report, which typically sinks without so much as a
ripple).

Due to their work environments most of these folks are not 'bleeding edge'
adopters either, so such a bug not being officially reported for an entire
OS release indicates little to nothing about how catastrophically
show-stopping it may ultimately prove to them and their users/employers. 

That can (and does) delay or prevent entire organizations from updating
their OS or buying new machines that fatally break legacy in-house apps they
depend on (which often are a principal anchor to the Mac platform) that
upgrading would force them to rewrite from scratch. Not to mention SERIOUSLY
pissing them off, and forcing them to question their decision to live in a
walled garden.

And I can't possibly be the only one in this position, which means there's
undoubtedly a whole flotilla of such 'big problems for lots of people' that
are effectively invisible to 'radar' yet still have a significant and
ongoing negative impact on Apple's customer/developer (ahem) loyalty and
bottom line.

Just sayin'...

<>

-Mark


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Re: FPShowHideFontPanel crash on Sierra

[Info]

I would agree to the past few posts on this thread. 

When a serious bug is found in my code, I have a responsibility to my customers 
to fix that bug and do some initial testing before releasing it back to the 
customer. That is what being a dedicated developer is all about. 
Apple should have the same responsibility to its customers, many of whom are 
developers partnering with Apple to get them where they are today.

The color picker bug is in the OS and Apple should simply fix it.

Jeremy Sagan
Sagan Technology
www.sagantech.biz

From: Martin Crane 
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2016 5:24 PM
To: Jeff Evans 
Cc: Mark Lucas ; carbon-dev@lists.apple.com 
Subject: Re: FPShowHideFontPanel crash on Sierra

Just chiming in here… my app has a built-in text editor and Font Panel just 
doesn’t work at all any more - nothing happens - but the spelling panel and 
Check Spelling options crash my app. I’m guessing these are related? I will log 
radars and post here if it helps? 

-Martin

  On 29 Nov 2016, at 22:18, Jeff Evans <jev...@ars-nova.com> wrote:

  I hope it is not misuse of this list to add another voice to that of Mark - 
we received two user complaints about the font panel problem in our legacy 
apps, but it must have bothered many many more who didn't complain or who 
didn't realize the problem was with the font panel - as far as they were 
concerned, the computer or our software was just acting up. It took me a while 
to realize the problem was in system code, and I didn't file a report either; 
by that time Apple had heard about it.  So certainly one should not take a low 
number of bug reports as evidence that a problem is not causing much trouble. 
Especially something so integral to so many older apps; any program offering a 
font choice is likely to have people using that mechanism.

  Jeff


  On Nov 29, 2016, at 2:02 PM, Mark Lucas wrote:



On Nov 29, 2016, at 3:00 PM, carbon-dev-requ...@lists.apple.com wrote:

the fact that it existed through at least one major OS release prior to 
being reported indicates that it’s not causing big problems for lots of people 
- if it were, we’d have a lot more reports.


  Hi Eric,

  Please don’t take this personally, but while that's apparently a common 
perception at Apple I feel compelled to respectfully point out that it’s not 
even remotely true…

  For example no matter how many users of our authoring tool experience a given 
problem, you’re vanishingly unlikely to receive more than one bug report 
documenting it. That’s because few of these folks have developer accounts, and 
fewer of those who do will ever file a bug themselves about it (because they’re 
busy, and without the source code they literally have no clue what’s going 
wrong, where, or why, and use these tools specifically to avoid needing to). So 
anything I file a report against (unless explicitly noted otherwise) typically 
affects hundreds or thousands of loyal longtime Mac developers all over the 
world. But if I can’t fix or work around a problem in Apple’s code they 
complain only to ME, not to you (and I file the aforementioned lonely report, 
which typically sinks without so much as a ripple).

  Due to their work environments most of these folks are not ‘bleeding edge’ 
adopters either, so such a bug not being officially reported for an entire OS 
release indicates little to nothing about how catastrophically show-stopping it 
may ultimately prove to them and their users/employers. 

  That can (and does) delay or prevent entire organizations from updating their 
OS or buying new machines that fatally break legacy in-house apps they depend 
on (which often are a principal anchor to the Mac platform) that upgrading 
would force them to rewrite from scratch. Not to mention SERIOUSLY pissing them 
off, and forcing them to question their decision to live in a walled garden…

  And I can’t possibly be the only one in this position, which means there’s 
undoubtedly a whole flotilla of such ‘big problems for lots of people' that are 
effectively invisible to ‘radar’ yet still have a significant and ongoing 
negative impact on Apple’s customer/developer (ahem) loyalty and bottom line.

  Just sayin’...

  <>

  -Mark


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Re: FPShowHideFontPanel crash on Sierra

[Martin Crane]

Just chiming in here… my app has a built-in text editor and Font Panel just 
doesn’t work at all any more - nothing happens - but the spelling panel and 
Check Spelling options crash my app. I’m guessing these are related? I will log 
radars and post here if it helps?

-Martin

> On 29 Nov 2016, at 22:18, Jeff Evans  wrote:
> 
> I hope it is not misuse of this list to add another voice to that of Mark - 
> we received two user complaints about the font panel problem in our legacy 
> apps, but it must have bothered many many more who didn't complain or who 
> didn't realize the problem was with the font panel - as far as they were 
> concerned, the computer or our software was just acting up. It took me a 
> while to realize the problem was in system code, and I didn't file a report 
> either; by that time Apple had heard about it.  So certainly one should not 
> take a low number of bug reports as evidence that a problem is not causing 
> much trouble. Especially something so integral to so many older apps; any 
> program offering a font choice is likely to have people using that mechanism.
> 
> Jeff
> 
> 
> On Nov 29, 2016, at 2:02 PM, Mark Lucas wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Nov 29, 2016, at 3:00 PM, carbon-dev-requ...@lists.apple.com wrote:
>> 
>> the fact that it existed through at least one major OS release prior to 
>> being reported indicates that it’s not causing big problems for lots of 
>> people - if it were, we’d have a lot more reports.
> 
> Hi Eric,
> 
> Please don’t take this personally, but while that's apparently a common 
> perception at Apple I feel compelled to respectfully point out that it’s not 
> even remotely true…
> 
> For example no matter how many users of our authoring tool experience a given 
> problem, you’re vanishingly unlikely to receive more than one bug report 
> documenting it. That’s because few of these folks have developer accounts, 
> and fewer of those who do will ever file a bug themselves about it (because 
> they’re busy, and without the source code they literally have no clue what’s 
> going wrong, where, or why, and use these tools specifically to avoid needing 
> to). So anything I file a report against (unless explicitly noted otherwise) 
> typically affects hundreds or thousands of loyal longtime Mac developers all 
> over the world. But if I can’t fix or work around a problem in Apple’s code 
> they complain only to ME, not to you (and I file the aforementioned lonely 
> report, which typically sinks without so much as a ripple).
> 
> Due to their work environments most of these folks are not ‘bleeding edge’ 
> adopters either, so such a bug not being officially reported for an entire OS 
> release indicates little to nothing about how catastrophically show-stopping 
> it may ultimately prove to them and their users/employers. 
> 
> That can (and does) delay or prevent entire organizations from updating their 
> OS or buying new machines that fatally break legacy in-house apps they depend 
> on (which often are a principal anchor to the Mac platform) that upgrading 
> would force them to rewrite from scratch. Not to mention SERIOUSLY pissing 
> them off, and forcing them to question their decision to live in a walled 
> garden…
> 
> And I can’t possibly be the only one in this position, which means there’s 
> undoubtedly a whole flotilla of such ‘big problems for lots of people' that 
> are effectively invisible to ‘radar’ yet still have a significant and ongoing 
> negative impact on Apple’s customer/developer (ahem) loyalty and bottom line.
> 
> Just sayin’...
> 
> <>
> 
> -Mark
> 
> 
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Re: FPShowHideFontPanel crash on Sierra

[Eric Schlegel]

> On Nov 28, 2016, at 10:49 PM, Info  wrote:
> 
> Hello Eric,
>  
> You wrote:
>> Just to set expectations properly - the issues with the color picker in this 
>> case are not new in Sierra. They occurred in earlier versions of mac OS 
>> (including El Cap) as well. I don’t think they’ll be fixed in 10.12.2.
> Why not? It is a pretty bad bug and I would think it would be easy to fix. I 
> don’t understand how the fixing of this bug is related to the particular OS 
> it was introduced in.

Certainly I agree that the color picker issue you reported is a significant 
usability problem for changing the font color.

However, software updates aren’t a free-for-all to fix any bug. As a software 
engineer yourself, I’m sure you know that any bug fix, no matter how 
trivial-seeming, still has risk. There’s always a chance that a bug fix will 
introduce some further problems. For that reason we restrict what fixes go into 
software updates much more closely than for major software releases (which have 
longer schedules that allow for more testing).

Software update fixes tend to be restricted to issues that are recent 
regressions, or are known to affect a significant number of users. This 
particular issue doesn’t seem to fit those criteria. It’s not a new problem, 
and the fact that it existed through at least one major OS release prior to 
being reported indicates that it’s not causing big problems for lots of people 
- if it were, we’d have a lot more reports.

-eric

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Re: FPShowHideFontPanel crash on Sierra

[Eric Schlegel]

> On Nov 26, 2016, at 11:57 AM, Info  wrote:
> 
> Hello Jeff,
> 
> Well the problem appear to be in the color picker control of the fonts panel, 
> my app does not use colored text at this point so it is not a major problem 
> for me. Apple knows about this and can repeat it so I am expecting a fix by 
> the time 10.12.2 is officially released.

Just to set expectations properly - the issues with the color picker in this 
case are not new in Sierra. They occurred in earlier versions of mac OS 
(including El Cap) as well. I don’t think they’ll be fixed in 10.12.2.

The font panel crash in Carbon apps _is_ fixed in 10.12.2, though.

-eric


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Re: FPShowHideFontPanel crash on Sierra

[Info]

Hello Jeff,

Well the problem appear to be in the color picker control of the fonts 
panel, my app does not use colored text at this point so it is not a major 
problem for me. Apple knows about this and can repeat it so I am expecting a 
fix by the time 10.12.2 is officially released.


Jeremy

-Original Message- 
From: Jeff Evans

Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2016 2:47 PM
To: Info
Cc: carbon-dev@lists.apple.com
Subject: Re: FPShowHideFontPanel crash on Sierra

That is sure hopeful. Are the problems enough to cause significant 
difficulties?


Thanks, Jeff

On Nov 26, 2016, at 10:42 AM, Info wrote:

Hello Jeff,

This has been fixed in 10.12.2 which is in beta now, but available to all 
that sign up for it. There are still problems with the font panel but at 
least it does not crash.


Jeremy

-Original Message- From: Jeff Evans
Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2016 12:51 PM
To: carbon-dev@lists.apple.com
Subject: FPShowHideFontPanel crash on Sierra

I see that OS 10.12 Sierra crashes at attempts to use FPShowHideFontPanel() 
in Carbon apps - not good. I've found a thread in which someone else 
encountered this, but no solutions were offered beyond writing one's own 
font dialog.

The crash log shows an unrecognized selector when initing NSPanel.
I really need to squeeze a little more life out of my existing Carbon apps, 
because their Cocoa replacements are not ready. Has anyone heard of a way to 
get around this problem? All was well until Sierra came along.


Thanks, Jeff


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