Re: [cayugabirds-l] Northern Goshawk Fingerlakes National Forest, Schuyler Co.

[Scott Haber]

John C.,

I'm still trying to figure out how we "know" Goshawks to be adverse to
human disturbance. Anecdotal evidence is nice, as is your research on
Golden-winged Warblers, but actual cited research on Northern Goshawks
reports the following:

*"Disturbances associated with research are usually of short duration,
apparently having little impact on nesting birds. Viewing nests for short
periods after young have hatched does not cause desertion. Trapping adults
during nesting for banding or attaching transmitters apparently does not
cause abandonment. The percentage of nesting pairs with radios that
successfully raised young (83%, n = 8, 1988–1989) was similar to those
without radios (82%, n = 10, 1987–1990; Austin 1993
).
Timbering
activities near nests can cause failure, especially during incubation
(Anonymous 1989
,
Boal
and Mannan 1994
).
Logging activities, such as loading and skidding, within 50–100 m of nest
can cause abandonment, even with 20-d-old nestlings present (JRS). However,
see Zirrer (1947
)
for descriptions of repeated renesting attempts despite extreme
disturbance.*

My takeaway from that is that unless someone starts logging/timbering at
Foster Pond, I think Josh's goshawk will be fine, even if a few folks
decide to go take a look for it. This is not a situation comparable to
something like a roosting owl's location being posted, since there's no
evidence at all that the goshawk will even remain at this exact location
any longer than the single day on which Josh observed it. According to more
research cited in the BNA account, the earliest-ever recorded date of this
species being paired up and on territory is late February, and mid-March to
early April is much more common.

Exercising caution for the sake of leaving rare or poorly-known birds
undisturbed is one thing, but I think it's also worth not immediately
rushing to chastise and scold new contributors for their sightings, without
any legitimate evidence that their reports will have any negative impact on
said birds.

-Scott

On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 2:54 PM, John Confer  wrote:

> I'm just suggesting that an overdoes of caution for the sake of a
> species that is known to be adverse to human disturbance is worth
> considering. The evidence for goshawk nest abandonment that I know about
> is limited but real.  I doubt that at this time of year that there would
> be any impact on reproductive success, but a visit in ~April-May might
> have an impact.
>
> 40 years ago Dorothy McIlroy described to me one goshawk nest that was
> abandoned while the birds were on eggs and 30 years ago John Snelling, a
> former grad student of Tom Cade, with a strong interest in raptors, also
> described such an instance. John Gregoire, below, added another
> instance(s). This doesn't approach the sample size for a publication.
> There is data for golden-wings that the number fledged per nest is lower
> for renests, but that comes from pooling nearly a dozen major studies of
> GWWA reproductive success, including a half-dozen PhDs, and is
> detectable only with a sample size of on the order of 500 nests. This
> won't happen for goshawk. So what we have is anecdotal.
>
> Since my information on goshawk is old and very personal and not
> generally known among the public,  I wanted to make the gentle
> suggestion that for birds swuch as ravens and goshawk or similar birds
> with individual pairs that can be adversely affected by human presence
> that the location of (potential) territories and/or nests is probably
> not a good thing to share. It is interesting that within a species there
> may be pairs that are acclimated to human presence and pairs that don';t
> often contact humans and may "over-react' to human intrusion. This the
> consequence of visiting a nest or entering a territory is unpredictable.
>
> Cheers,
>
> John
>
> On 1/16/2015 2:17 PM, Anne Clark wrote:
> > Hopefully this is not taking this outside the interest of many on the
> list but:
> >
> > I am curious to know the evidence on reduced nesting success in
> goshawks, in part because it is really important to know what such evidence
> would look like.  John, can you direct those of us who might want to follow
> up to publications, people, organizations?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Anne
> >
> > On Jan 16, 2015, at 2:07 PM, John and Sue Gregoire wrote:
> >
> >> Heartly concur John. Count me as a bander who has both noted this and
> had research
> >> muddled by such exact descriptions.
> >> john
> >> --
> >> John and Sue Gregoire
> >> Field Ornithologists
> >> Kestrel Haven Avian Migration Observatory
> >> 5373 Fitzgerald Road
> >> Burdett,NY 14818-9626
> >> N 42 26.611' W 76 45

Re: [cayugabirds-l] Northern Goshawk Fingerlakes National Forest, Schuyler Co.

[John Confer]

I'm just suggesting that an overdoes of caution for the sake of a 
species that is known to be adverse to human disturbance is worth 
considering. The evidence for goshawk nest abandonment that I know about 
is limited but real.  I doubt that at this time of year that there would 
be any impact on reproductive success, but a visit in ~April-May might 
have an impact.

40 years ago Dorothy McIlroy described to me one goshawk nest that was 
abandoned while the birds were on eggs and 30 years ago John Snelling, a 
former grad student of Tom Cade, with a strong interest in raptors, also 
described such an instance. John Gregoire, below, added another 
instance(s). This doesn't approach the sample size for a publication. 
There is data for golden-wings that the number fledged per nest is lower 
for renests, but that comes from pooling nearly a dozen major studies of 
GWWA reproductive success, including a half-dozen PhDs, and is 
detectable only with a sample size of on the order of 500 nests. This 
won't happen for goshawk. So what we have is anecdotal.

Since my information on goshawk is old and very personal and not 
generally known among the public,  I wanted to make the gentle 
suggestion that for birds swuch as ravens and goshawk or similar birds 
with individual pairs that can be adversely affected by human presence 
that the location of (potential) territories and/or nests is probably 
not a good thing to share. It is interesting that within a species there 
may be pairs that are acclimated to human presence and pairs that don';t 
often contact humans and may "over-react' to human intrusion. This the 
consequence of visiting a nest or entering a territory is unpredictable.

Cheers,

John

On 1/16/2015 2:17 PM, Anne Clark wrote:
> Hopefully this is not taking this outside the interest of many on the list 
> but:
>
> I am curious to know the evidence on reduced nesting success in goshawks, in 
> part because it is really important to know what such evidence would look 
> like.  John, can you direct those of us who might want to follow up to 
> publications, people, organizations?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Anne
>
> On Jan 16, 2015, at 2:07 PM, John and Sue Gregoire wrote:
>
>> Heartly concur John. Count me as a bander who has both noted this and had 
>> research
>> muddled by such exact descriptions.
>> john
>> -- 
>> John and Sue Gregoire
>> Field Ornithologists
>> Kestrel Haven Avian Migration Observatory
>> 5373 Fitzgerald Road
>> Burdett,NY 14818-9626
>> N 42 26.611' W 76 45.492'
>> Website: http://www.empacc.net/~kestrelhaven/
>> "Conserve and Create Habitat"
>>
>> On Thu, January 15, 2015 16:03, John Confer wrote:
>>> HI Folks,
>>>
>>>  The barn door is open or the cat is out of the bag, BUT I HAVE A
>>> CONCERN ABOUT DESCRIBING LOCATIONS OF N GOSHAWK WHEN THEY ACT SOMEWHAT
>>> AS IF THEY HAD A TERRITORY. Northern Goshawk are known among banders who
>>> climb to hawk nests to frequently abandon a nest, especially early in
>>> the nesting cycle, although not so much after the young have
>>> hatched.Individual birds can become accustomed to human disturbance at a
>>> low level and provide an exception. Other birds that rarely see humans
>>> may well abandon a nest if disturbed. At this time of year, they
>>> probably haven't started laying and, even if the bird is considering
>>> nesting nearby, at this time of the year the bird might just move away.
>>> However, if they did start to nest and someone visited the well
>>> described site a couple months from now, the bird might abandon eggs.
>>>
>>>  I know there is an excitement in seeing a good bird, and it is very
>>> nice to share providing a very good motivation to share a siting with
>>> others, e.g., the Schofield Short-eared Owls, which do not seem to be at
>>> all disturbed by humans watching them in a car. Other species of birds
>>> may have reduced nesting success if people visit them, and goshawk are
>>> known to be so affected. Discretion in individual circumstances is advised.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>> On 1/15/2015 11:14 AM, Donna Scott wrote:
 Where is Foster Pond, please?

 Sent from my iPhone
 Donna Scott

 On Jan 14, 2015, at 6:19 PM, Joshua Snodgrass >>> > wrote:

> I went birding at Foster Pond this afternoon, because high twenties
> feels like spring compared to the last few days. Past the frozen pond
> and down Backbone trail I ventured into the brushy field to get a
> better look at some waxwings when I flushed a Northern Goshawk from
> low cover. Life Bird! She (I'm guessing based on the size) perched in
> a small tree and posed for a long time. Excellent views. Adult with a
> bright eyestripe. I took pictures until my hands and toes went numb.
> She never flew away. As I was returning to the trail two Common
> Ravens flew over calling. Awesome Day!
> Photos:
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/123875591@N03/16096262487/in/pho

Re: [cayugabirds-l] Northern Goshawk Fingerlakes National Forest, Schuyler Co.

[Scott Haber]

As a follow-up to Anne's request, I'd also love to hear about any evidence
showing that Goshawks are "on territory" in January, and that "flushing
from low cover" is a typical behavior of a Goshawk "on territory" and
susceptible to "disturbance".

-Scott

On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 2:17 PM, Anne Clark  wrote:

> Hopefully this is not taking this outside the interest of many on the list
> but:
>
> I am curious to know the evidence on reduced nesting success in goshawks,
> in part because it is really important to know what such evidence would
> look like.  John, can you direct those of us who might want to follow up to
> publications, people, organizations?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Anne
>
> On Jan 16, 2015, at 2:07 PM, John and Sue Gregoire wrote:
>
> > Heartly concur John. Count me as a bander who has both noted this and
> had research
> > muddled by such exact descriptions.
> > john
> > --
> > John and Sue Gregoire
> > Field Ornithologists
> > Kestrel Haven Avian Migration Observatory
> > 5373 Fitzgerald Road
> > Burdett,NY 14818-9626
> > N 42 26.611' W 76 45.492'
> > Website: http://www.empacc.net/~kestrelhaven/
> > "Conserve and Create Habitat"
> >
> > On Thu, January 15, 2015 16:03, John Confer wrote:
> >> HI Folks,
> >>
> >> The barn door is open or the cat is out of the bag, BUT I HAVE A
> >> CONCERN ABOUT DESCRIBING LOCATIONS OF N GOSHAWK WHEN THEY ACT SOMEWHAT
> >> AS IF THEY HAD A TERRITORY. Northern Goshawk are known among banders who
> >> climb to hawk nests to frequently abandon a nest, especially early in
> >> the nesting cycle, although not so much after the young have
> >> hatched.Individual birds can become accustomed to human disturbance at a
> >> low level and provide an exception. Other birds that rarely see humans
> >> may well abandon a nest if disturbed. At this time of year, they
> >> probably haven't started laying and, even if the bird is considering
> >> nesting nearby, at this time of the year the bird might just move away.
> >> However, if they did start to nest and someone visited the well
> >> described site a couple months from now, the bird might abandon eggs.
> >>
> >> I know there is an excitement in seeing a good bird, and it is very
> >> nice to share providing a very good motivation to share a siting with
> >> others, e.g., the Schofield Short-eared Owls, which do not seem to be at
> >> all disturbed by humans watching them in a car. Other species of birds
> >> may have reduced nesting success if people visit them, and goshawk are
> >> known to be so affected. Discretion in individual circumstances is
> advised.
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >> John
> >>
> >> On 1/15/2015 11:14 AM, Donna Scott wrote:
> >>> Where is Foster Pond, please?
> >>>
> >>> Sent from my iPhone
> >>> Donna Scott
> >>>
> >>> On Jan 14, 2015, at 6:19 PM, Joshua Snodgrass  >>> > wrote:
> >>>
>  I went birding at Foster Pond this afternoon, because high twenties
>  feels like spring compared to the last few days. Past the frozen pond
>  and down Backbone trail I ventured into the brushy field to get a
>  better look at some waxwings when I flushed a Northern Goshawk from
>  low cover. Life Bird! She (I'm guessing based on the size) perched in
>  a small tree and posed for a long time. Excellent views. Adult with a
>  bright eyestripe. I took pictures until my hands and toes went numb.
>  She never flew away. As I was returning to the trail two Common
>  Ravens flew over calling. Awesome Day!
>  Photos:
> 
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/123875591@N03/16096262487/in/photostream/
> 
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/123875591@N03/15662257883/in/photostream/
> 
>  Sorry I didn't post earlier, but I have a dumb phone.
>  Good birding!
>  Josh
>  --
>  *Cayugabirds-L List Info:*
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> http://www.northeastbirding.com/CayugabirdsWELCOME>
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> >
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> >>> Surfbirds 

Re: [cayugabirds-l] Northern Goshawk Fingerlakes National Forest, Schuyler Co.

[Anne Clark]

Hopefully this is not taking this outside the interest of many on the list but:

I am curious to know the evidence on reduced nesting success in goshawks, in 
part because it is really important to know what such evidence would look like. 
 John, can you direct those of us who might want to follow up to publications, 
people, organizations?

Thanks,

Anne

On Jan 16, 2015, at 2:07 PM, John and Sue Gregoire wrote:

> Heartly concur John. Count me as a bander who has both noted this and had 
> research
> muddled by such exact descriptions.
> john
> -- 
> John and Sue Gregoire
> Field Ornithologists
> Kestrel Haven Avian Migration Observatory
> 5373 Fitzgerald Road
> Burdett,NY 14818-9626
> N 42 26.611' W 76 45.492'
> Website: http://www.empacc.net/~kestrelhaven/
> "Conserve and Create Habitat"
> 
> On Thu, January 15, 2015 16:03, John Confer wrote:
>> HI Folks,
>> 
>> The barn door is open or the cat is out of the bag, BUT I HAVE A
>> CONCERN ABOUT DESCRIBING LOCATIONS OF N GOSHAWK WHEN THEY ACT SOMEWHAT
>> AS IF THEY HAD A TERRITORY. Northern Goshawk are known among banders who
>> climb to hawk nests to frequently abandon a nest, especially early in
>> the nesting cycle, although not so much after the young have
>> hatched.Individual birds can become accustomed to human disturbance at a
>> low level and provide an exception. Other birds that rarely see humans
>> may well abandon a nest if disturbed. At this time of year, they
>> probably haven't started laying and, even if the bird is considering
>> nesting nearby, at this time of the year the bird might just move away.
>> However, if they did start to nest and someone visited the well
>> described site a couple months from now, the bird might abandon eggs.
>> 
>> I know there is an excitement in seeing a good bird, and it is very
>> nice to share providing a very good motivation to share a siting with
>> others, e.g., the Schofield Short-eared Owls, which do not seem to be at
>> all disturbed by humans watching them in a car. Other species of birds
>> may have reduced nesting success if people visit them, and goshawk are
>> known to be so affected. Discretion in individual circumstances is advised.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> 
>> John
>> 
>> On 1/15/2015 11:14 AM, Donna Scott wrote:
>>> Where is Foster Pond, please?
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> Donna Scott
>>> 
>>> On Jan 14, 2015, at 6:19 PM, Joshua Snodgrass >> > wrote:
>>> 
 I went birding at Foster Pond this afternoon, because high twenties
 feels like spring compared to the last few days. Past the frozen pond
 and down Backbone trail I ventured into the brushy field to get a
 better look at some waxwings when I flushed a Northern Goshawk from
 low cover. Life Bird! She (I'm guessing based on the size) perched in
 a small tree and posed for a long time. Excellent views. Adult with a
 bright eyestripe. I took pictures until my hands and toes went numb.
 She never flew away. As I was returning to the trail two Common
 Ravens flew over calling. Awesome Day!
 Photos:
 https://www.flickr.com/photos/123875591@N03/16096262487/in/photostream/
 https://www.flickr.com/photos/123875591@N03/15662257883/in/photostream/
 
 Sorry I didn't post earlier, but I have a dumb phone.
 Good birding!
 Josh
 --
 *Cayugabirds-L List Info:*
 Welcome and Basics 
 Rules and Information 
 Subscribe, Configuration and Leave
 
 *Archives:*
 The Mail Archive
 
 Surfbirds 
 BirdingOnThe.Net 
 *Please submit your observations to eBird
 !*
 --
>>> --
>>> *Cayugabirds-L List Info:*
>>> Welcome and Basics 
>>> Rules and Information 
>>> Subscribe, Configuration and Leave
>>> 
>>> *Archives:*
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>>> Surfbirds 
>>> BirdingOnThe.Net 
>>> *Please submit your observations to eBird
>>> !*
>>> --
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> 
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>> 2) http:

Re: [cayugabirds-l] Northern Goshawk Fingerlakes National Forest, Schuyler Co.

[John and Sue Gregoire]

Heartly concur John. Count me as a bander who has both noted this and had 
research
muddled by such exact descriptions.
john
-- 
John and Sue Gregoire
Field Ornithologists
Kestrel Haven Avian Migration Observatory
5373 Fitzgerald Road
Burdett,NY 14818-9626
N 42 26.611' W 76 45.492'
 Website: http://www.empacc.net/~kestrelhaven/
"Conserve and Create Habitat"

On Thu, January 15, 2015 16:03, John Confer wrote:
> HI Folks,
>
>  The barn door is open or the cat is out of the bag, BUT I HAVE A
> CONCERN ABOUT DESCRIBING LOCATIONS OF N GOSHAWK WHEN THEY ACT SOMEWHAT
> AS IF THEY HAD A TERRITORY. Northern Goshawk are known among banders who
> climb to hawk nests to frequently abandon a nest, especially early in
> the nesting cycle, although not so much after the young have
> hatched.Individual birds can become accustomed to human disturbance at a
> low level and provide an exception. Other birds that rarely see humans
> may well abandon a nest if disturbed. At this time of year, they
> probably haven't started laying and, even if the bird is considering
> nesting nearby, at this time of the year the bird might just move away.
> However, if they did start to nest and someone visited the well
> described site a couple months from now, the bird might abandon eggs.
>
>  I know there is an excitement in seeing a good bird, and it is very
> nice to share providing a very good motivation to share a siting with
> others, e.g., the Schofield Short-eared Owls, which do not seem to be at
> all disturbed by humans watching them in a car. Other species of birds
> may have reduced nesting success if people visit them, and goshawk are
> known to be so affected. Discretion in individual circumstances is advised.
>
> Cheers,
>
> John
>
> On 1/15/2015 11:14 AM, Donna Scott wrote:
>> Where is Foster Pond, please?
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> Donna Scott
>>
>> On Jan 14, 2015, at 6:19 PM, Joshua Snodgrass > > wrote:
>>
>>> I went birding at Foster Pond this afternoon, because high twenties
>>> feels like spring compared to the last few days. Past the frozen pond
>>> and down Backbone trail I ventured into the brushy field to get a
>>> better look at some waxwings when I flushed a Northern Goshawk from
>>> low cover. Life Bird! She (I'm guessing based on the size) perched in
>>> a small tree and posed for a long time. Excellent views. Adult with a
>>> bright eyestripe. I took pictures until my hands and toes went numb.
>>> She never flew away. As I was returning to the trail two Common
>>> Ravens flew over calling. Awesome Day!
>>> Photos:
>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/123875591@N03/16096262487/in/photostream/
>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/123875591@N03/15662257883/in/photostream/
>>>
>>> Sorry I didn't post earlier, but I have a dumb phone.
>>> Good birding!
>>> Josh
>>> --
>>> *Cayugabirds-L List Info:*
>>> Welcome and Basics 
>>> Rules and Information 
>>> Subscribe, Configuration and Leave
>>> 
>>> *Archives:*
>>> The Mail Archive
>>> 
>>> Surfbirds 
>>> BirdingOnThe.Net 
>>> *Please submit your observations to eBird
>>> !*
>>> --
>> --
>> *Cayugabirds-L List Info:*
>> Welcome and Basics 
>> Rules and Information 
>> Subscribe, Configuration and Leave
>> 
>> *Archives:*
>> The Mail Archive
>> 
>> Surfbirds 
>> BirdingOnThe.Net 
>> *Please submit your observations to eBird
>> !*
>> --
>
>
> --
>
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Re: [cayugabirds-l] Northern Goshawk Fingerlakes National Forest, Schuyler Co.

[Joshua Snodgrass]

Thank you both for the pointers. Had this been a nesting bird, I certainly
would have used more discretion. I hadn't considered the possibility of
disturbance to a possible future nesting site. This is the first rare bird
I've discovered and posted about. The last thing I want is for it to be
disturbed or scared off.
Good birding
Josh

On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 4:15 PM, Kevin J. McGowan  wrote:

>  Concern for animal welfare is always worth considering. However, it
> seems climbing to nests is quite different than observing a bird.  In some
> circumstances, crows will abandon nests with chicks if someone climbs to
> the nest.
>
>
>
> Here is what the BNA account says:
>
>
>
> *Sensitivity To Disturbance At Nest And Roost Sites *
>
> Timbering activities near nests can cause failure, especially during
> incubation (Anonymous 1989
> <http://bna.birds.cornell.edu/bna/species/298/articles/species/298/biblio/bib013>,
> Boal and Mannan 1994
> <http://bna.birds.cornell.edu/bna/species/298/articles/species/298/biblio/bib034>).
> Logging activities, such as loading and skidding, within 50–100 m of nest
> can cause abandonment, even with 20-d-old nestlings present (JRS). However,
> see Zirrer (1947
> <http://bna.birds.cornell.edu/bna/species/298/articles/species/298/biblio/bib242>)
> for descriptions of repeated renesting attempts despite extreme
> disturbance. Camping near nests has also caused failures (*n* = 2; Speiser
> 1992
> <http://bna.birds.cornell.edu/bna/species/298/articles/species/298/biblio/bib202>
> ).
>
> *Research Impacts *
>
> Disturbances associated with research are usually of short duration,
> apparently having little impact on nesting birds. Viewing nests for short
> periods after young have hatched does not cause desertion. Trapping adults
> during nesting for banding or attaching transmitters apparently does not
> cause abandonment. The percentage of nesting pairs with radios that
> successfully raised young (83%, *n* = 8, 1988–1989) was similar to those
> without radios (82%, *n* = 10, 1987–1990; Austin 1993
> <http://bna.birds.cornell.edu/bna/species/298/articles/species/298/biblio/bib018>
> ).
>
> I don’t see a pressing concern here, personally.
>
>
>
> Kevin
>
>
>
> *From:* bounce-118707197-3493...@list.cornell.edu [mailto:
> bounce-118707197-3493...@list.cornell.edu] *On Behalf Of *John Confer
> *Sent:* Thursday, January 15, 2015 4:04 PM
> *To:* Donna Scott; Joshua Snodgrass
> *Cc:* CAYUGABIRDS-L
> *Subject:* Re: [cayugabirds-l] Northern Goshawk Fingerlakes National
> Forest, Schuyler Co.
>
>
>
> HI Folks,
>
>
> The barn door is open or the cat is out of the bag, BUT I HAVE A
> CONCERN ABOUT DESCRIBING LOCATIONS OF N GOSHAWK WHEN THEY ACT SOMEWHAT AS
> IF THEY HAD A TERRITORY. Northern Goshawk are known among banders who climb
> to hawk nests to frequently abandon a nest, especially early in the nesting
> cycle, although not so much after the young have hatched.Individual birds
> can become accustomed to human disturbance at a low level and provide an
> exception. Other birds that rarely see humans may well abandon a nest if
> disturbed. At this time of year, they probably haven't started laying and,
> even if the bird is considering nesting nearby, at this time of the year
> the bird might just move away. However, if they did start to nest and
> someone visited the well described site a couple months from now, the bird
> might abandon eggs.
>
> I know there is an excitement in seeing a good bird, and it is very
> nice to share providing a very good motivation to share a siting with
> others, e.g., the Schofield Short-eared Owls, which do not seem to be at
> all disturbed by humans watching them in a car. Other species of birds may
> have reduced nesting success if people visit them, and goshawk are known to
> be so affected. Discretion in individual circumstances is advised.
>
> Cheers,
>
> John
>
> On 1/15/2015 11:14 AM, Donna Scott wrote:
>
>   Where is Foster Pond, please?
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> Donna Scott
>
>
> On Jan 14, 2015, at 6:19 PM, Joshua Snodgrass 
> wrote:
>
>  I went birding at Foster Pond this afternoon, because high twenties
> feels like spring compared to the last few days. Past the frozen pond and
> down Backbone trail I ventured into the brushy field to get a better look
> at some waxwings when I flushed a Northern Goshawk from low cover. Life
> Bird! She (I'm guessing based on the size) perched in a small tree and
> posed for a long time. Excellent views. Adult with a bright eyestripe. I
> took pictures until my hands and toes went numb. She never flew away. As I
> was returning to the trail two 

RE: [cayugabirds-l] Northern Goshawk Fingerlakes National Forest, Schuyler Co.

[Kevin J. McGowan]

Concern for animal welfare is always worth considering. However, it seems 
climbing to nests is quite different than observing a bird.  In some 
circumstances, crows will abandon nests with chicks if someone climbs to the 
nest.

Here is what the BNA account says:

Sensitivity To Disturbance At Nest And Roost Sites
Timbering activities near nests can cause failure, especially during incubation 
(Anonymous 
1989<http://bna.birds.cornell.edu/bna/species/298/articles/species/298/biblio/bib013>,
 Boal and Mannan 
1994<http://bna.birds.cornell.edu/bna/species/298/articles/species/298/biblio/bib034>).
 Logging activities, such as loading and skidding, within 50–100 m of nest can 
cause abandonment, even with 20-d-old nestlings present (JRS). However, see 
Zirrer 
(1947<http://bna.birds.cornell.edu/bna/species/298/articles/species/298/biblio/bib242>)
 for descriptions of repeated renesting attempts despite extreme disturbance. 
Camping near nests has also caused failures (n = 2; Speiser 
1992<http://bna.birds.cornell.edu/bna/species/298/articles/species/298/biblio/bib202>).
Research Impacts
Disturbances associated with research are usually of short duration, apparently 
having little impact on nesting birds. Viewing nests for short periods after 
young have hatched does not cause desertion. Trapping adults during nesting for 
banding or attaching transmitters apparently does not cause abandonment. The 
percentage of nesting pairs with radios that successfully raised young (83%, n 
= 8, 1988–1989) was similar to those without radios (82%, n = 10, 1987–1990; 
Austin 
1993<http://bna.birds.cornell.edu/bna/species/298/articles/species/298/biblio/bib018>).
I don’t see a pressing concern here, personally.

Kevin

From: bounce-118707197-3493...@list.cornell.edu 
[mailto:bounce-118707197-3493...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of John Confer
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2015 4:04 PM
To: Donna Scott; Joshua Snodgrass
Cc: CAYUGABIRDS-L
Subject: Re: [cayugabirds-l] Northern Goshawk Fingerlakes National Forest, 
Schuyler Co.

HI Folks,

The barn door is open or the cat is out of the bag, BUT I HAVE A CONCERN 
ABOUT DESCRIBING LOCATIONS OF N GOSHAWK WHEN THEY ACT SOMEWHAT AS IF THEY HAD A 
TERRITORY. Northern Goshawk are known among banders who climb to hawk nests to 
frequently abandon a nest, especially early in the nesting cycle, although not 
so much after the young have hatched.Individual birds can become accustomed to 
human disturbance at a low level and provide an exception. Other birds that 
rarely see humans may well abandon a nest if disturbed. At this time of year, 
they probably haven't started laying and, even if the bird is considering 
nesting nearby, at this time of the year the bird might just move away. 
However, if they did start to nest and someone visited the well described site 
a couple months from now, the bird might abandon eggs.

I know there is an excitement in seeing a good bird, and it is very nice to 
share providing a very good motivation to share a siting with others, e.g., the 
Schofield Short-eared Owls, which do not seem to be at all disturbed by humans 
watching them in a car. Other species of birds may have reduced nesting success 
if people visit them, and goshawk are known to be so affected. Discretion in 
individual circumstances is advised.

Cheers,

John

On 1/15/2015 11:14 AM, Donna Scott wrote:
Where is Foster Pond, please?

Sent from my iPhone
Donna Scott

On Jan 14, 2015, at 6:19 PM, Joshua Snodgrass 
mailto:cedarsh...@gmail.com>> wrote:
I went birding at Foster Pond this afternoon, because high twenties feels like 
spring compared to the last few days. Past the frozen pond and down Backbone 
trail I ventured into the brushy field to get a better look at some waxwings 
when I flushed a Northern Goshawk from low cover. Life Bird! She (I'm guessing 
based on the size) perched in a small tree and posed for a long time. Excellent 
views. Adult with a bright eyestripe. I took pictures until my hands and toes 
went numb. She never flew away. As I was returning to the trail two Common 
Ravens flew over calling. Awesome Day!
Photos: https://www.flickr.com/photos/123875591@N03/16096262487/in/photostream/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/123875591@N03/15662257883/in/photostream/

Sorry I didn't post earlier, but I have a dumb phone.
Good birding!
Josh
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Please submit your observations to eBird&l

Re: [cayugabirds-l] Northern Goshawk Fingerlakes National Forest, Schuyler Co.

[John Confer]

HI Folks,

 The barn door is open or the cat is out of the bag, BUT I HAVE A 
CONCERN ABOUT DESCRIBING LOCATIONS OF N GOSHAWK WHEN THEY ACT SOMEWHAT 
AS IF THEY HAD A TERRITORY. Northern Goshawk are known among banders who 
climb to hawk nests to frequently abandon a nest, especially early in 
the nesting cycle, although not so much after the young have 
hatched.Individual birds can become accustomed to human disturbance at a 
low level and provide an exception. Other birds that rarely see humans 
may well abandon a nest if disturbed. At this time of year, they 
probably haven't started laying and, even if the bird is considering 
nesting nearby, at this time of the year the bird might just move away. 
However, if they did start to nest and someone visited the well 
described site a couple months from now, the bird might abandon eggs.

 I know there is an excitement in seeing a good bird, and it is very 
nice to share providing a very good motivation to share a siting with 
others, e.g., the Schofield Short-eared Owls, which do not seem to be at 
all disturbed by humans watching them in a car. Other species of birds 
may have reduced nesting success if people visit them, and goshawk are 
known to be so affected. Discretion in individual circumstances is advised.

Cheers,

John

On 1/15/2015 11:14 AM, Donna Scott wrote:
> Where is Foster Pond, please?
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> Donna Scott
>
> On Jan 14, 2015, at 6:19 PM, Joshua Snodgrass  > wrote:
>
>> I went birding at Foster Pond this afternoon, because high twenties 
>> feels like spring compared to the last few days. Past the frozen pond 
>> and down Backbone trail I ventured into the brushy field to get a 
>> better look at some waxwings when I flushed a Northern Goshawk from 
>> low cover. Life Bird! She (I'm guessing based on the size) perched in 
>> a small tree and posed for a long time. Excellent views. Adult with a 
>> bright eyestripe. I took pictures until my hands and toes went numb. 
>> She never flew away. As I was returning to the trail two Common 
>> Ravens flew over calling. Awesome Day!
>> Photos: 
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/123875591@N03/16096262487/in/photostream/
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/123875591@N03/15662257883/in/photostream/
>>
>> Sorry I didn't post earlier, but I have a dumb phone.
>> Good birding!
>> Josh
>> --
>> *Cayugabirds-L List Info:*
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Re: [cayugabirds-l] Northern Goshawk Fingerlakes National Forest, Schuyler Co.

[John and Sue Gregoire]

Foster Pond is a small parking lot on the left Side Of Potomac Rd going north 
from
227. It is not in the CLB but in the SLB.
-- 
John and Sue Gregoire
Field Ornithologists
Kestrel Haven Avian Migration Observatory
5373 Fitzgerald Road
Burdett,NY 14818-9626
N 42 26.611' W 76 45.492'
 Website: http://www.empacc.net/~kestrelhaven/
"Conserve and Create Habitat"

On Thu, January 15, 2015 11:14, Donna Scott wrote:
> Where is Foster Pond, please?
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> Donna Scott
>
> On Jan 14, 2015, at 6:19 PM, Joshua Snodgrass  wrote:
>
>> I went birding at Foster Pond this afternoon, because high twenties feels 
>> like
>> spring compared to the last few days. Past the frozen pond and down Backbone 
>> trail
>> I ventured into the brushy field to get a better look at some waxwings when I
>> flushed a Northern Goshawk from low cover. Life Bird! She (I'm guessing 
>> based on
>> the size) perched in a small tree and posed for a long time. Excellent views.
>> Adult with a bright eyestripe. I took pictures until my hands and toes went 
>> numb.
>> She never flew away. As I was returning to the trail two Common Ravens flew 
>> over
>> calling. Awesome Day!
>> Photos: 
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/123875591@N03/16096262487/in/photostream/
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/123875591@N03/15662257883/in/photostream/
>>
>> Sorry I didn't post earlier, but I have a dumb phone.
>> Good birding!
>> Josh
>> --
>> Cayugabirds-L List Info:
>> Welcome and Basics
>> Rules and Information
>> Subscribe, Configuration and Leave
>> Archives:
>> The Mail Archive
>> Surfbirds
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>> Please submit your observations to eBird!
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Fwd: [cayugabirds-l] Northern Goshawk Fingerlakes National Forest, Schuyler Co.

[Joshua Snodgrass]

-- Forwarded message --
From: Joshua Snodgrass 
Date: Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 11:24 AM
Subject: Re: [cayugabirds-l] Northern Goshawk Fingerlakes National Forest,
Schuyler Co.
To: Donna Scott 


Heading west on Searsburg rd (Co. rd. 1), turn left on Potomac rd. (past
Hector grazing association and Ballard Pond) to enter the Fingerlakes
National Forest. Drive South on Potomac rd about a mile or so. The parking
area for the Foster Pond area is directly across from where Chicken coop rd
intersects with Potomac rd (not sure if there is a road sign for chicken
coop rd., but there is a sign for Foster Pond visible in the small parking
area) The path from the parking area goes west, stay to the left until you
reach Foster pond, then walk around to the far north west corner of the
pond. There is a picnic table there, take the path to the left. The goshawk
was on the west side of the trail, which is fairly open, across from a huge
stand of pine trees, probably 100-200yds down the trail. (Just be careful,
Potomac rd is a seasonal dirt rd with little maintenance). Good luck!
http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5352123.pdf
Josh

On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 11:14 AM, Donna Scott  wrote:

> Where is Foster Pond, please?
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> Donna Scott
>
> On Jan 14, 2015, at 6:19 PM, Joshua Snodgrass 
> wrote:
>
> I went birding at Foster Pond this afternoon, because high twenties feels
> like spring compared to the last few days. Past the frozen pond and down
> Backbone trail I ventured into the brushy field to get a better look at
> some waxwings when I flushed a Northern Goshawk from low cover. Life Bird!
> She (I'm guessing based on the size) perched in a small tree and posed for
> a long time. Excellent views. Adult with a bright eyestripe. I took
> pictures until my hands and toes went numb. She never flew away. As I was
> returning to the trail two Common Ravens flew over calling. Awesome Day!
> Photos:
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/123875591@N03/16096262487/in/photostream/
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/123875591@N03/15662257883/in/photostream/
>
> Sorry I didn't post earlier, but I have a dumb phone.
> Good birding!
> Josh
> --
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RE: [cayugabirds-l] Northern Goshawk Fingerlakes National Forest, Schuyler Co.

[Meena Madhav Haribal]

Oh I forgot to point where the pond is on the map. It is close to the yellow 
box “see inset A” but on the left hand side adjoining the black dotted line in 
the center of the map!

From: bounce-118706019-3493...@list.cornell.edu 
[mailto:bounce-118706019-3493...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Donna Scott
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2015 11:15 AM
To: Joshua Snodgrass
Cc: CAYUGABIRDS-L
Subject: Re: [cayugabirds-l] Northern Goshawk Fingerlakes National Forest, 
Schuyler Co.

Where is Foster Pond, please?

Sent from my iPhone
Donna Scott

On Jan 14, 2015, at 6:19 PM, Joshua Snodgrass 
mailto:cedarsh...@gmail.com>> wrote:
I went birding at Foster Pond this afternoon, because high twenties feels like 
spring compared to the last few days. Past the frozen pond and down Backbone 
trail I ventured into the brushy field to get a better look at some waxwings 
when I flushed a Northern Goshawk from low cover. Life Bird! She (I'm guessing 
based on the size) perched in a small tree and posed for a long time. Excellent 
views. Adult with a bright eyestripe. I took pictures until my hands and toes 
went numb. She never flew away. As I was returning to the trail two Common 
Ravens flew over calling. Awesome Day!
Photos: https://www.flickr.com/photos/123875591@N03/16096262487/in/photostream/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/123875591@N03/15662257883/in/photostream/

Sorry I didn't post earlier, but I have a dumb phone.
Good birding!
Josh
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RE: [cayugabirds-l] Northern Goshawk Fingerlakes National Forest, Schuyler Co.

[Meena Madhav Haribal]

Foster Pond is in Finger Lakes National Forest.  It probably is not in the 
basin. But I have not looked at the details where the water flows!
Here is the map with Foster Pond!

http://www.cnyhiking.com/FingerLakesNationalForest.htm

Meena

From: bounce-118706019-3493...@list.cornell.edu 
[mailto:bounce-118706019-3493...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Donna Scott
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2015 11:15 AM
To: Joshua Snodgrass
Cc: CAYUGABIRDS-L
Subject: Re: [cayugabirds-l] Northern Goshawk Fingerlakes National Forest, 
Schuyler Co.

Where is Foster Pond, please?

Sent from my iPhone
Donna Scott

On Jan 14, 2015, at 6:19 PM, Joshua Snodgrass 
mailto:cedarsh...@gmail.com>> wrote:
I went birding at Foster Pond this afternoon, because high twenties feels like 
spring compared to the last few days. Past the frozen pond and down Backbone 
trail I ventured into the brushy field to get a better look at some waxwings 
when I flushed a Northern Goshawk from low cover. Life Bird! She (I'm guessing 
based on the size) perched in a small tree and posed for a long time. Excellent 
views. Adult with a bright eyestripe. I took pictures until my hands and toes 
went numb. She never flew away. As I was returning to the trail two Common 
Ravens flew over calling. Awesome Day!
Photos: https://www.flickr.com/photos/123875591@N03/16096262487/in/photostream/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/123875591@N03/15662257883/in/photostream/

Sorry I didn't post earlier, but I have a dumb phone.
Good birding!
Josh
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Re: [cayugabirds-l] Northern Goshawk Fingerlakes National Forest, Schuyler Co.

[Donna Scott]

Where is Foster Pond, please?

Sent from my iPhone
Donna Scott

On Jan 14, 2015, at 6:19 PM, Joshua Snodgrass  wrote:

> I went birding at Foster Pond this afternoon, because high twenties feels 
> like spring compared to the last few days. Past the frozen pond and down 
> Backbone trail I ventured into the brushy field to get a better look at some 
> waxwings when I flushed a Northern Goshawk from low cover. Life Bird! She 
> (I'm guessing based on the size) perched in a small tree and posed for a long 
> time. Excellent views. Adult with a bright eyestripe. I took pictures until 
> my hands and toes went numb. She never flew away. As I was returning to the 
> trail two Common Ravens flew over calling. Awesome Day!
> Photos: 
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/123875591@N03/16096262487/in/photostream/
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/123875591@N03/15662257883/in/photostream/
> 
> Sorry I didn't post earlier, but I have a dumb phone.
> Good birding!
> Josh
> --
> Cayugabirds-L List Info:
> Welcome and Basics
> Rules and Information
> Subscribe, Configuration and Leave
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[cayugabirds-l] Northern Goshawk Fingerlakes National Forest, Schuyler Co.

[Joshua Snodgrass]

I went birding at Foster Pond this afternoon, because high twenties feels
like spring compared to the last few days. Past the frozen pond and down
Backbone trail I ventured into the brushy field to get a better look at
some waxwings when I flushed a Northern Goshawk from low cover. Life Bird!
She (I'm guessing based on the size) perched in a small tree and posed for
a long time. Excellent views. Adult with a bright eyestripe. I took
pictures until my hands and toes went numb. She never flew away. As I was
returning to the trail two Common Ravens flew over calling. Awesome Day!
Photos:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/123875591@N03/16096262487/in/photostream/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/123875591@N03/15662257883/in/photostream/

Sorry I didn't post earlier, but I have a dumb phone.
Good birding!
Josh

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