Re: [ccp4bb] Strange Pseudosymmetry Effects

[John R Helliwell]

Hello Eddie,
I believe this article from Robert Huber and coauthors was the first to
discuss dynamical effects in a protein crystal:-
Acta Cryst.  (1980). B*36*
, 621-627
Greetings,
John

On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 4:44 PM Edward Snell  wrote:

> This jogged my memory of a CCP4 newsletter article many years ago covering
> kinematical versus dynamic scattering in protein crystals and offering a
> correction that could be used. I think it was Lindsay Sawyer and Igor
> Polikarpov in the late 90’s. I apologize if I have the authors wrong but I
> thought it was a commentary well ahead of its time and with modern sources
> and low noise detectors, I am wondering if anyone has revisited this?
> Protein crystals are remarkably high quality until you cryocool them.
> Serial methods combined with instrument capabilities may rate a revisit to
> the use of the kinematical approximation versus application of dynamical
> theories? Certainly the computational power is available.
>
>
>
> Just my 2 cents for the day.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
>
>
> Eddie
>
>
>
>
>
> Edward Snell Ph.D.
>
>
>
> Director of the NSF BioXFEL Science and Technology Center
>
> President and CEO Hauptman-Woodward Medical Research Institute
>
> BioInnovations Chaired Professorship, University at Buffalo, SUNY
>
> 700 Ellicott Street, Buffalo, NY 14203-1102
>
> hwi.buffalo.edu
>
> Phone:   (716) 898 8631 Fax: (716) 898 8660
>
> Skype:eddie.snell Email: esn...@hwi.buffalo.edu
>
> Webpage: https://hwi.buffalo.edu/scientist-directory/snell/
>
> [image: hwilogo]
>
> Heisenberg was probably here!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* CCP4 bulletin board  *On Behalf Of *James
> Holton
> *Sent:* Thursday, May 28, 2020 11:34 AM
> *To:* CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK
> *Subject:* Re: [ccp4bb] Strange Pseudosymmetry Effects
>
>
>
> Be careful with electron diffraction and apparent absence violations. It
> is possible these weak spots are simply due to multiple scattering.  If so,
> you would see them relatively stronger with larger crystals,but much weaker
> relative to the strong reflections when the crystal is smaller. Do you?
>
> -James Holton
> MAD Scientist
>
> On 5/27/2020 6:49 PM, Jessica Bruhn wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
>
>
> I am wondering if pseudosymmetry can cause weak reflections that mimic the
> doubling of one unit cell axis' length. Has anyone seen something like this
> before?
>
>
>
>  I am processing data from a small molecule sample collected with electron
> diffraction from multiple crystals. For the b axis, it is not clear if the
> length should be 10A or 20A. There are spots with the correct spacing for
> b=20A, but every other spot seems weaker than the spots along k if I choose
> b=10A (this extends beyond (0,k,0)). I am unable to phase the b=20 data. I
> have solved this structure in P1 with b=10 and found four molecules in the
> ASU and in P212121 with b=10 resulting in one molecule in the ASU. In P1,
> three of the four molecules adopt the same conformation, but the fourth
> molecule is in an alternate conformation that causes only ~1/2 of the
> molecule to be consistent with the first three. In P212121 I see density
> for part of this alternative conformation, but the full molecule in this
> alternate conformation cannot pack properly in P212121. Based on these
> results and some orthogonal data, I think I should refine the solution in
> P1 with b=10. Does it seem reasonable that pseudosymmetry is causing these
> weak reflections along k hinting at a doubling of the b axis?
>
>
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Jessica
>
>
>
> --
>
> Jessica Bruhn, Ph.D
>
> Principal Scientist
>
> NanoImaging Services, Inc.
>
> 4940 Carroll Canyon Road, Suite 115
>
> San Diego, CA 92121
>
> Phone #: (888) 675-8261
>
> www.nanoimagingservices.com
>
>
> --
>
> To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link:
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-- 
Professor John R Helliwell DSc



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Re: [ccp4bb] PDB file header lines...

[Harry Powell - CCP4BB]

Hi Robbie

Many thanks. I should tell the owners of the prediction server that they’re 
writing non-compliant files, in that case.

So “BIDEN” is not compliant but “TRUMP” is? He’d like that…

H

> On 29 May 2020, at 16:02, Robbie Joosten  wrote:
> 
> Hi Harry,
> 
> You need this: 
> http://www.wwpdb.org/documentation/file-format-content/format33/sect9.html#MODEL
> 
> Essentially you have to make sure a MODEL has a number and a closing tag. It 
> is read as a real PDB record so you have to make sure it is correct BIDEN is 
> not PDB compliant and will be either ignored or a parser will throw an error.
> 
> Cheers,
> Robbie
> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: CCP4 bulletin board  On Behalf Of Harry
>> Powell - CCP4BB
>> Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 16:57
>> To: CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK
>> Subject: [ccp4bb] PDB file header lines...
>> 
>> Hi
>> 
>> Is there something about “MODEL ” lines (i.e. five characters followed by a
>> space) in PDB files that is completely beyond the pale?
>> 
>> I’ve got some PDB files from a protein structure prediction server based in
>> the US that Coot fails to read and that cause QTMG to crash on my Mac. I’ve
>> tracked this down to “MODEL” lines in the file headers.
>> 
>> I’ve tested this most in QTMG, so the following may not be true for Coot. If 
>> I
>> change this line so that it has “M ”, “MO ”, “MOD ”, MODE ”, “MODEL1 ”,
>> “MODEL22 ”, “MODEL678 ” or even “MODEL^&* ” instead of “MODEL ” then
>> all looks hunky-dory.
>> 
>> I thought - “aha - there’s something about 5 characters” - so I tried 
>> replacing
>> “MODEL ” with “TRUMP ” and “BIDEN ” and the files read okay, so it does
>> look very specific.
>> 
>> I’m sure there’s a simple answer to this (is there a “FM” I could read?), 
>> but I
>> haven’t found one yet. Can anyone on the BB help out?
>> 
>> Harry
>> 
>> ###
>> #
>> 
>> To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link:
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>> This message was issued to members of www.jiscmail.ac.uk/CCP4BB, a
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Re: [ccp4bb] PDB file header lines...

[Robbie Joosten]

Hi Harry,

You need this: 
http://www.wwpdb.org/documentation/file-format-content/format33/sect9.html#MODEL

Essentially you have to make sure a MODEL has a number and a closing tag. It is 
read as a real PDB record so you have to make sure it is correct BIDEN is not 
PDB compliant and will be either ignored or a parser will throw an error.

Cheers,
Robbie

> -Original Message-
> From: CCP4 bulletin board  On Behalf Of Harry
> Powell - CCP4BB
> Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 16:57
> To: CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK
> Subject: [ccp4bb] PDB file header lines...
> 
> Hi
> 
> Is there something about “MODEL ” lines (i.e. five characters followed by a
> space) in PDB files that is completely beyond the pale?
> 
> I’ve got some PDB files from a protein structure prediction server based in
> the US that Coot fails to read and that cause QTMG to crash on my Mac. I’ve
> tracked this down to “MODEL” lines in the file headers.
> 
> I’ve tested this most in QTMG, so the following may not be true for Coot. If I
> change this line so that it has “M ”, “MO ”, “MOD ”, MODE ”, “MODEL1 ”,
> “MODEL22 ”, “MODEL678 ” or even “MODEL^&* ” instead of “MODEL ” then
> all looks hunky-dory.
> 
> I thought - “aha - there’s something about 5 characters” - so I tried 
> replacing
> “MODEL ” with “TRUMP ” and “BIDEN ” and the files read okay, so it does
> look very specific.
> 
> I’m sure there’s a simple answer to this (is there a “FM” I could read?), but 
> I
> haven’t found one yet. Can anyone on the BB help out?
> 
> Harry
> 
> ###
> #
> 
> To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link:
> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=CCP4BB=1
> 
> This message was issued to members of www.jiscmail.ac.uk/CCP4BB, a
> mailing list hosted by www.jiscmail.ac.uk, terms & conditions are available at
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[ccp4bb] PDB file header lines...

[Harry Powell - CCP4BB]

Hi

Is there something about “MODEL ” lines (i.e. five characters followed by a 
space) in PDB files that is completely beyond the pale? 

I’ve got some PDB files from a protein structure prediction server based in the 
US that Coot fails to read and that cause QTMG to crash on my Mac. I’ve tracked 
this down to “MODEL” lines in the file headers. 

I’ve tested this most in QTMG, so the following may not be true for Coot. If I 
change this line so that it has “M ”, “MO ”, “MOD ”, MODE ”, “MODEL1 ”, 
“MODEL22 ”, “MODEL678 ” or even “MODEL^&* ” instead of “MODEL ” then all looks 
hunky-dory.

I thought - “aha - there’s something about 5 characters” - so I tried replacing 
“MODEL ” with “TRUMP ” and “BIDEN ” and the files read okay, so it does look 
very specific.

I’m sure there’s a simple answer to this (is there a “FM” I could read?), but I 
haven’t found one yet. Can anyone on the BB help out?

Harry



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[ccp4bb] Job Offer at INNOVATION CAMPUS BERLIN in Computational Chemistry

[Martina Schaefer]

Dear colleagues,

Nuvisan ICB in Berlin is offering a permanent position as Director of 
Computational Chemistry in Berlin, Germany.
Your tasks will include build-up and lead the Computational Chemistry team 
working in interdisciplinary teams to advance drug-discovery projects.

Further information and how to apply can be found here:
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Nuvisan INNOVATION CAMPUS BERLIN is a newly founded contract research 
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ICB has a long history of experience in pharma research and the combination 
with Nuvisan as an international service provider for clinical studies, 
laboratory services and contract manufacturing offers an attractive working 
environment.

Best Regards, Martina



Freundliche Grüße / Best regards,

Dr. Martina Schaefer
Structural Biology 3



Bayer AG
Research & Development, Pharmaceuticals
Structural Biology
Building S116, 323
13342 Berlin, Germany
Tel:   +49 30 468192089
Fax: +49 30 46816707
Mobile: +49 152 08821830
E-mail:  martina.schaef...@bayer.com
Web:http://www.bayer.com
Datenschutzhinweise
 // Data privacy 
information

/// Vorstand: Werner Baumann, Vorsitzender | Liam Condon, Wolfgang Nickl, 
Stefan Oelrich, Heiko Schipper
/// Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats: Norbert Winkeljohann
/// Sitz der Gesellschaft: Leverkusen | Amtsgericht Köln, HRB 48248




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Re: [ccp4bb] Fwd: Refmac error

[Robbie Joosten]

Hi Eugene,

We recently had this with a student as well and at least in PDB format the 
files are salvageable by doing a simple search and replace from , to .

Rather than going completely American, you can also just change the number 
format. In Windows 10 this is 
Settings > Time & Language > Data, time, & regional formatting (hidden on the 
right) > Additional data, time, & regional settings > Change data, time, or 
number formats > Additional settings

Only "decimal symbol" and "Digit grouping symbol" need to be set to . and , 
respectively. 

Cheers,
Robbie
> -Original Message-
> From: CCP4 bulletin board  On Behalf Of Eugene
> Krissinel
> Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 12:47
> To: CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK
> Subject: Re: [ccp4bb] Fwd: Refmac error
> 
> Dear Nadine,
> 
> Many thanks for sharing your project with me on CCP4 Cloud. The reason for
> Refmac failure is absolutely clear: the previous Coot job exported PDB file,
> using commas (wie im besten Deutsch) instead of periods (as we would
> expect in best English) for all float-point numbers. You can see it if you go 
> to
> the previous Coot job report, scroll down to "Output Structure", press
> "Display" and scroll down a bit.
> 
> This effect is known to be peculiar to WinCoot -- have you used Windows
> machine to run Coot in job 179? And had you used a different machine to
> run Coot in job 169, which produced output file in correct format?
> 
> The only way to cope with the situation, known to me, is to ensure that your
> Windows machine uses US/English locale settings. This takes tweaking
> Language settings in Windows Control Panel and rebooting the machine.
> Regrettably, you will have to repeat job 179 in new locale. If it contains
> particularly valuable results that are difficult to reproduce, let me know 
> and I
> will advise you of the rescue procedure.
> 
> Admittedly, you are by far not the only one who encounters this problem,
> which appears in all locales with float point formats different from
> US/English. Therefore, I cc WinCoot developer on this email (they are aware
> anyway, and are working on the issue), as well as CCP4 BB list, where you
> placed your request initially, for other CCP4 users to be aware of this
> feature. And there is an obvious homework for us here at CCP4.
> 
> Once again, many thanks for your report. Please unshare this project now
> (simply remove my login name where you have put it for sharing before).
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> Eugene
> 
> 
> On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 9:52 AM Nadine Gerlach   > wrote:
> 
> 
>   Hey Eugene,
> 
>   actually this happend not just for one project of mine, but I shared
> one project with you now. Scroll down to the last refmac run after model
> building with coot. I just tried it again but it is still the same result.
> 
>   Thanks for the help!!
> 
>   Nadine
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   Am 28.05.2020 um 19:28 schrieb Eugene Krissinel:
> 
> 
>   Dear Nadine,
> 
>   We would need more information on what happens. You can
> share your project with me and I can have a look at it. To share the project,
> open it, then push Main Manu button in top-left corner, choose "Share" and
> set my login name (eugene), then confirm to me by e-mail. Your data and
> project will be treated as confidential.
> 
>   Many thanks for writing to us (use c...@ccp4.ac.uk
>   rather than BB list for this type of queries please)
> 
>   Eugene
> 
> 
>   -- Forwarded message -
>   From: Nadine Gerlach   >
>   Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 at 14:21
>   Subject: Refmac error
>   To: mailto:CCP4BB-
> requ...@jiscmail.ac.uk> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   Hey everybody,
> 
>   I am running refmac in CCP4 ccloud after Coot and I get this
> error message:
> 
>*** error running refmac5: Error in command.call
>   Return code: 512
> 
>   Any held is really appreaciated!
> 
>   Best wishes,
>   Nadine
>   --
>   Nadine Gerlach
>   PhD candidate
>   MPG MARUM Bridge Group Marine Glycobiology
>   MARUM, University Bremen & Max Planck Institute for
> Marine Microbiology
>   Tel: +49 421 218-65758
>   Email: nger­lach@mpi-bre­men.de  ,
> ngerl...@marum.de 
>   MARUM Pavillon room 1110
>   Leobener Straße
>   28359 Bremen, Germany
> 
>   This email and any attachments are intended solely for the
> use of the named recipients. If you are not the intended recipient you must
> not use, disclose, copy or distribute this email or any of its attachments and
> should notify the sender immediately and delete this email from your
> system. UK Research and Innovation (UKRI) has taken 

Re: [ccp4bb] Fwd: Refmac error

[Eugene Krissinel]

Dear Nadine,

Many thanks for sharing your project with me on CCP4 Cloud. The reason for
Refmac failure is absolutely clear: the previous Coot job exported PDB
file, using commas (wie im besten Deutsch) instead of periods (as we would
expect in best English) for all float-point numbers. You can see it if you
go to the previous Coot job report, scroll down to "Output Structure",
press "Display" and scroll down a bit.

This effect is known to be peculiar to WinCoot -- have you used Windows
machine to run Coot in job 179? And had you used a different machine to run
Coot in job 169, which produced output file in correct format?

The only way to cope with the situation, known to me, is to ensure that
your Windows machine uses US/English locale settings. This takes tweaking
Language settings in Windows Control Panel and rebooting the machine.
Regrettably, you will have to repeat job 179 in new locale. If it contains
particularly valuable results that are difficult to reproduce, let me know
and I will advise you of the rescue procedure.

Admittedly, you are by far not the only one who encounters this problem,
which appears in all locales with float point formats different from
US/English. Therefore, I cc WinCoot developer on this email (they are aware
anyway, and are working on the issue), as well as CCP4 BB list, where you
placed your request initially, for other CCP4 users to be aware of this
feature. And there is an obvious homework for us here at CCP4.

Once again, many thanks for your report. Please unshare this project now
(simply remove my login name where you have put it for sharing before).

Kind regards,

Eugene


On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 9:52 AM Nadine Gerlach  wrote:

> Hey Eugene,
>
> actually this happend not just for one project of mine, but I shared one
> project with you now. Scroll down to the last refmac run after model
> building with coot. I just tried it again but it is still the same result.
>
> Thanks for the help!!
>
> Nadine
>
>
> Am 28.05.2020 um 19:28 schrieb Eugene Krissinel:
>
> Dear Nadine,
>
> We would need more information on what happens. You can share your project
> with me and I can have a look at it. To share the project, open it, then
> push Main Manu button in top-left corner, choose "Share" and set my login
> name (eugene), then confirm to me by e-mail. Your data and project will be
> treated as confidential.
>
> Many thanks for writing to us (use c...@ccp4.ac.uk rather than BB list
> for this type of queries please)
>
> Eugene
>
>
> -- Forwarded message -
> From: Nadine Gerlach 
> Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 at 14:21
> Subject: Refmac error
> To: 
>
>
> Hey everybody,
>
> I am running refmac in CCP4 ccloud after Coot and I get this error message:
>
>  *** error running refmac5: Error in command.call
> Return code: 512
>
> Any held is really appreaciated!
>
> Best wishes,
> Nadine
>
> --
> Nadine Gerlach
> PhD candidate
> MPG MARUM Bridge Group Marine Glycobiology
> MARUM, University Bremen & Max Planck Institute for Marine Microbiology
> Tel: +49 421 218-65758
> Email: nger­lach@mpi-bre­men.de, ngerl...@marum.de
> MARUM Pavillon room 1110
> Leobener Straße
> 28359 Bremen, Germany
>
> This email and any attachments are intended solely for the use of the
> named recipients. If you are not the intended recipient you must not use,
> disclose, copy or distribute this email or any of its attachments and
> should notify the sender immediately and delete this email from your
> system. UK Research and Innovation (UKRI) has taken every reasonable
> precaution to minimise risk of this email or any attachments containing
> viruses or malware but the recipient should carry out its own virus and
> malware checks before opening the attachments. UKRI does not accept any
> liability for any losses or damages which the recipient may sustain due to
> presence of any viruses. Opinions, conclusions or other information in this
> message and attachments that are not related directly to UKRI business are
> solely those of the author and do not represent the views of UKRI.
>
> --
> Nadine Gerlach
> PhD candidate
> MPG MARUM Bridge Group Marine Glycobiology
> MARUM, University Bremen & Max Planck Institute for Marine Microbiology
> Tel: +49 421 218-65758
> Email: nger­lach@mpi-bre­men.de, ngerl...@marum.de
> MARUM Pavillon room 1110
> Leobener Straße
> 28359 Bremen, Germany
>
>

This email and any attachments are intended solely for the use of the named 
recipients. If you are not the intended recipient you must not use, disclose, 
copy or distribute this email or any of its attachments and should notify the 
sender immediately and delete this email from your system. UK Research and 
Innovation (UKRI) has taken every reasonable precaution to minimise risk of 
this email or any attachments containing viruses or malware but the recipient 
should carry out its own virus and malware checks before opening the 
attachments. UKRI does not accept any liability for any losses or damages which 

Re: [ccp4bb] visual mask editor - why

[Eleanor Dodson]

Wont mapmask do that?  Find the fraction coordinate of the blob extent then
carve that section out of the map?
Eleanor
>From documentation:

*XYZLIM [ASU] [CELL] [MATCH]  **Set the output
map extent as `extend'. - are given in grid units or in fractional
coordinates. It is possible to automatically extend to the CCP4 default
asymmetric unit, or a whole unit cell, by specifying `XYZLIM ASU' or
`XYZLIM CELL'. It is also possible to extend the map to match another map
(given as MAPLIM) by specifiying `XYZLIM MATCH'. The default is to keep the
extent of the input map.*

On Fri, 29 May 2020 at 08:03, Pavel Afonine  wrote:

> Hi Bernhard,
>
> "Like comparing these map regions, excluding
>
> intrusion of a solvent mask, etc.":
>
> You didn't say much about the context.. So I'd say Polder map approach
> comes to mind first based on these keywords. Next is "map comparison" (
> https://doi.org/10.1107/S1399004714016289).
>
> If none of the above: what we (or you) are missing?
>
> Pavel
>
> On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 11:17 AM Bernhard Rupp 
> wrote:
>
>> Maybe I should explain an example: Say coot detects an unmodelled blob
>> (maybe a ligand). Now, I would like to do
>>
>> a number of things without biasing towards a model. Like comparing these
>> map regions, excluding
>>
>> intrusion of a solvent mask, etc.
>>
>>
>>
>> Now could coot for example just generate a mask around what it already
>> knows are blobs?
>>
>> Possible useful items could be a solvent mask not including that regions,
>> or a density map
>>
>> that includes only features with a certain boundary around that blob.
>>
>>
>>
>> I pilfered some kludges together from different sources, but let’s just
>> say inelegant would be a compliment.
>>
>>
>>
>> Best, BR
>>
>> 
>>
>> Brief question: Does something like a visual density mask editor exist?
>>
>> Thx, BR
>>
>> --
>>
>> Bernhard Rupp
>>
>> http://www.hofkristallamt.org/
>>
>> b...@hofkristallamt.org
>>
>> +1 925 209 7429
>>
>> +43 676 571 0536
>>
>> --
>>
>> Many plausible ideas vanish
>>
>> at the presence of thought
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link:
>> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=CCP4BB=1
>>
>
> --
>
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Re: [ccp4bb] Strange Pseudosymmetry Effects

[Harry Powell - CCP4BB]

Hi Tim

You could send out an SOS to some of the other authors in the same issue, who 
might have kept a copy - several are “regular" posters on this forum, e.g.  

Sacha Urzhumtsev
Gerard Kleywegt
Eleanor Dodson

There’s a good chance they’ll be stuck at home at the moment with plenty of 
time to search through old boxes…

Harry

> On 28 May 2020, at 21:04, Tim Gruene  wrote:
> Dear Eddie, dear all
> 
> According to ftp://ftp.ccp4.ac.uk/ccp4/newsletter/jun_95/, this article
> appeare in Newsletter June 95. It is mentioned in the table of contents,
> "Correction on perfection: primary extinction correction in protein
> crystallography" by Polykarpov and Sawyer.
> Unfortunately, the article itself is not there
> 
> Extinction is not the same as the dynamic effects that James mentioned,
> but this seems the closest match.
> 
> Would anyone have a copy they can share with me?
> 
> Thanks a lot!
> 
> Best,
> 
> Tim 



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Re: [ccp4bb] visual mask editor - why

[Pavel Afonine]

Hi Bernhard,

"Like comparing these map regions, excluding

intrusion of a solvent mask, etc.":

You didn't say much about the context.. So I'd say Polder map approach
comes to mind first based on these keywords. Next is "map comparison" (
https://doi.org/10.1107/S1399004714016289).

If none of the above: what we (or you) are missing?

Pavel

On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 11:17 AM Bernhard Rupp 
wrote:

> Maybe I should explain an example: Say coot detects an unmodelled blob
> (maybe a ligand). Now, I would like to do
>
> a number of things without biasing towards a model. Like comparing these
> map regions, excluding
>
> intrusion of a solvent mask, etc.
>
>
>
> Now could coot for example just generate a mask around what it already
> knows are blobs?
>
> Possible useful items could be a solvent mask not including that regions,
> or a density map
>
> that includes only features with a certain boundary around that blob.
>
>
>
> I pilfered some kludges together from different sources, but let’s just
> say inelegant would be a compliment.
>
>
>
> Best, BR
>
> 
>
> Brief question: Does something like a visual density mask editor exist?
>
> Thx, BR
>
> --
>
> Bernhard Rupp
>
> http://www.hofkristallamt.org/
>
> b...@hofkristallamt.org
>
> +1 925 209 7429
>
> +43 676 571 0536
>
> --
>
> Many plausible ideas vanish
>
> at the presence of thought
>
> --
>
>
>
> --
>
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