Re: organizing a trip to Cuba
On 24 June 2015 at 14:19, Johnny Billquist b...@update.uu.se wrote: Oh, I know. I'm from Sweden. We had a very big scandal where 5 containers with a VAX-11/782 and peripherials or something like that was found under strange circumstances. When the whole thing started to be investigated suddenly no one seemed to know or own those containers. The system was unclaimed for years, and it became a question of what to do with it, since no one seemed to claim it. I think it was eventually decided that since DEC made it, it was returned to them. The original shipping destination was of course somewhere in Soviet Union. This was in the early 80s... I'm sure someone can find the full story online somewhere. It's mentioned in the Datasaab article on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datasaab -- Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) • +420 702 829 053 (ČR)
Re: organizing a trip to Cuba
On 2015-06-25 13:31, Liam Proven wrote: On 24 June 2015 at 14:19, Johnny Billquist b...@update.uu.se wrote: Oh, I know. I'm from Sweden. We had a very big scandal where 5 containers with a VAX-11/782 and peripherials or something like that was found under strange circumstances. When the whole thing started to be investigated suddenly no one seemed to know or own those containers. The system was unclaimed for years, and it became a question of what to do with it, since no one seemed to claim it. I think it was eventually decided that since DEC made it, it was returned to them. The original shipping destination was of course somewhere in Soviet Union. This was in the early 80s... I'm sure someone can find the full story online somewhere. It's mentioned in the Datasaab article on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datasaab Hmm. Some interesting information on that page. But anyway, no, the smuggling story in that article is not the one I was referring to. That story is about some Swedish computers for ATC (also usable for military purposes obviously) which contained some American components, for which Sweden did not have an export license, so they somehow got to the SU without permission, which was later revealed, and was not a nice story, since the Swedish government was involved. Search for containeraffären in Google (unfortunately I only manage to find Swedish texts about it, but Google translate is your friend). In short, a private businessman in Sweden was involved a the shipping of a VAX-11/782 and peripherials via South Africa and Sweden (maybe Switzerland was also involved). It was caught by the Swedish customs, and the stuff never reached the SU. I guess that sortof repaired the damage of the previous Saab-affären story in the eyes of the USA... Johnny
Re: organizing a trip to Cuba
Oh, I want the whole computer, not just the CPU chip. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X n...@nf6x.net http://www.nf6x.net/
Re: organizing a trip to Cuba
Johnny Billquist wrote: On 2015-06-24 02:06, Mark J. Blair wrote: On Jun 23, 2015, at 09:32 , Holm Tiffe h...@freibergnet.de wrote: 1) Yes they copied the PDP11 and the VAX but, They made an VAX Chip that's compatible to the VAX730...and we all know that the VAX730 ist not an one chip solution as the russian chip is. Ooh! Is there any chance I could get my hands on one of those single-chip VAX730 clone machines? That sounds quite cool. Well, unless I'm mistaken, when the Russian VAX-11/730 on a chip came, DEC had already produced the uVAX II, which is also just a chip, but much faster than an 11/730, so it's not exactly as if the Russians were outperforming what DEC was doing... Exactly when did this Russian chip come out, by the way? Curious on exactly how far DEC had come at the time of that chip. :-) Johnny -- That wasn't the question at all Johnny. I wanted to make clear that not all clones are clones. I have an Elektronika 60 which is something like an 11/03 clone but it isn't a clone. It has a Q-BUS with connecteors like DECs original but with metric pin raster. Boards are bigger and the used chips and the schematics are totally different in most cases.S My memory confused the VAX730 with the VAX750... The machine is a development of it's own conforming some of the DEC Specs so that the original Software can run on that thing (E60). (The console SLU is a quad size board build from only TTL) The same happened with that VAX730 Chip, it was developed from only 10 people following the DEC reference manual. http://www.155la3.ru/k1839.htm http://www.online-translator.com gives halfways readable results from the translation of the web frame from russian to english. ..for PDP11 like processors: http://www.155la3.ru/k1801.htm I have a file with the internal Schematics (!) of the K1801VM2 processor, a PDP11 running w/o MMU at 10Mhz. There is also a 1801VM3 with internal MMU. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Straße 42, 09600 Oberschöna, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, i...@tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
Re: organizing a trip to Cuba
I just love this translation: *But me, naturally, anybody especially didn't ask.* Been there; still am ... On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 2:45 AM, Holm Tiffe h...@freibergnet.de wrote: Johnny Billquist wrote: On 2015-06-24 02:06, Mark J. Blair wrote: On Jun 23, 2015, at 09:32 , Holm Tiffe h...@freibergnet.de wrote: 1) Yes they copied the PDP11 and the VAX but, They made an VAX Chip that's compatible to the VAX730...and we all know that the VAX730 ist not an one chip solution as the russian chip is. Ooh! Is there any chance I could get my hands on one of those single-chip VAX730 clone machines? That sounds quite cool. Well, unless I'm mistaken, when the Russian VAX-11/730 on a chip came, DEC had already produced the uVAX II, which is also just a chip, but much faster than an 11/730, so it's not exactly as if the Russians were outperforming what DEC was doing... Exactly when did this Russian chip come out, by the way? Curious on exactly how far DEC had come at the time of that chip. :-) Johnny -- That wasn't the question at all Johnny. I wanted to make clear that not all clones are clones. I have an Elektronika 60 which is something like an 11/03 clone but it isn't a clone. It has a Q-BUS with connecteors like DECs original but with metric pin raster. Boards are bigger and the used chips and the schematics are totally different in most cases.S My memory confused the VAX730 with the VAX750... The machine is a development of it's own conforming some of the DEC Specs so that the original Software can run on that thing (E60). (The console SLU is a quad size board build from only TTL) The same happened with that VAX730 Chip, it was developed from only 10 people following the DEC reference manual. http://www.155la3.ru/k1839.htm http://www.online-translator.com gives halfways readable results from the translation of the web frame from russian to english. ..for PDP11 like processors: http://www.155la3.ru/k1801.htm I have a file with the internal Schematics (!) of the K1801VM2 processor, a PDP11 running w/o MMU at 10Mhz. There is also a 1801VM3 with internal MMU. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Straße 42, 09600 Oberschöna, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, i...@tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
Re: organizing a trip to Cuba
I was at DEC when much of this took place . The big concern was not so much the copying but the USSR just buying DEC product on the open market. They would set up a front company, sign up as an oem, pay their bills on time and carry on shipping. It took a while to sink in that good well behaved customers were he ones to watch not the ones who were in trouble all the time. The copying was much more like the space race and said a alot about what silicon processing the USSR had or had access to. Rod On 24/06/2015 12:40, Johnny Billquist wrote: On 2015-06-24 08:45, Holm Tiffe wrote: Johnny Billquist wrote: Well, unless I'm mistaken, when the Russian VAX-11/730 on a chip came, DEC had already produced the uVAX II, which is also just a chip, but much faster than an 11/730, so it's not exactly as if the Russians were outperforming what DEC was doing... Exactly when did this Russian chip come out, by the way? Curious on exactly how far DEC had come at the time of that chip. :-) Johnny -- That wasn't the question at all Johnny. I wanted to make clear that not all clones are clones. It's hard to define exactly what a clone is anyways. But DEC was very aware of the fact that the Russians were copying their stuff. Just look at the CVAX, when they even put a message in Russian on the silicon, for anyone to read, if they actually went down and looked at the chip at the gate level... :-) Johnny
Re: organizing a trip to Cuba
On 2015-06-24 13:40, Johnny Billquist wrote: On 2015-06-24 08:45, Holm Tiffe wrote: Johnny Billquist wrote: Well, unless I'm mistaken, when the Russian VAX-11/730 on a chip came, DEC had already produced the uVAX II, which is also just a chip, but much faster than an 11/730, so it's not exactly as if the Russians were outperforming what DEC was doing... Exactly when did this Russian chip come out, by the way? Curious on exactly how far DEC had come at the time of that chip. :-) Johnny -- That wasn't the question at all Johnny. I wanted to make clear that not all clones are clones. It's hard to define exactly what a clone is anyways. But DEC was very aware of the fact that the Russians were copying their stuff. Just look at the CVAX, when they even put a message in Russian on the silicon, for anyone to read, if they actually went down and looked at the chip at the gate level... :-) Just for people who might be amused: http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/creatures/pages/russians.html (And it Bob Supnik is reading this, he might be even more amused.) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip - B. Idol
Re: organizing a trip to Cuba
On 2015-06-24 13:56, Rod Smallwood wrote: I was at DEC when much of this took place . The big concern was not so much the copying but the USSR just buying DEC product on the open market. They would set up a front company, sign up as an oem, pay their bills on time and carry on shipping. It took a while to sink in that good well behaved customers were he ones to watch not the ones who were in trouble all the time. Oh, I know. I'm from Sweden. We had a very big scandal where 5 containers with a VAX-11/782 and peripherials or something like that was found under strange circumstances. When the whole thing started to be investigated suddenly no one seemed to know or own those containers. The system was unclaimed for years, and it became a question of what to do with it, since no one seemed to claim it. I think it was eventually decided that since DEC made it, it was returned to them. The original shipping destination was of course somewhere in Soviet Union. This was in the early 80s... I'm sure someone can find the full story online somewhere. The stuff spy thrillers are made from... :-) Johnny The copying was much more like the space race and said a alot about what silicon processing the USSR had or had access to. Rod On 24/06/2015 12:40, Johnny Billquist wrote: On 2015-06-24 08:45, Holm Tiffe wrote: Johnny Billquist wrote: Well, unless I'm mistaken, when the Russian VAX-11/730 on a chip came, DEC had already produced the uVAX II, which is also just a chip, but much faster than an 11/730, so it's not exactly as if the Russians were outperforming what DEC was doing... Exactly when did this Russian chip come out, by the way? Curious on exactly how far DEC had come at the time of that chip. :-) Johnny -- That wasn't the question at all Johnny. I wanted to make clear that not all clones are clones. It's hard to define exactly what a clone is anyways. But DEC was very aware of the fact that the Russians were copying their stuff. Just look at the CVAX, when they even put a message in Russian on the silicon, for anyone to read, if they actually went down and looked at the chip at the gate level... :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip - B. Idol
Re: organizing a trip to Cuba
On 2015-06-24 08:45, Holm Tiffe wrote: Johnny Billquist wrote: Well, unless I'm mistaken, when the Russian VAX-11/730 on a chip came, DEC had already produced the uVAX II, which is also just a chip, but much faster than an 11/730, so it's not exactly as if the Russians were outperforming what DEC was doing... Exactly when did this Russian chip come out, by the way? Curious on exactly how far DEC had come at the time of that chip. :-) Johnny -- That wasn't the question at all Johnny. I wanted to make clear that not all clones are clones. It's hard to define exactly what a clone is anyways. But DEC was very aware of the fact that the Russians were copying their stuff. Just look at the CVAX, when they even put a message in Russian on the silicon, for anyone to read, if they actually went down and looked at the chip at the gate level... :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip - B. Idol
Re: organizing a trip to Cuba
On Wed, 24 Jun 2015, Rod Smallwood wrote: I was at DEC when much of this took place . The big concern was not so much the copying but the USSR just buying DEC product on the open market. They would set up a front company, sign up as an oem, pay their bills on time and carry on shipping. It took a while to sink in that good well behaved customers were he ones to watch not the ones who were in trouble all the time. So, where were the best customers located? Langley, Fort Meade, 10th PA in DC, Moscow, Leningrad? Who were the easiest to get paid from? Did DEC produce manuals in other languages? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
Re: organizing a trip to Cuba
Pontus Pihlgren wrote: On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 08:45:13AM +0200, Holm Tiffe wrote: I have an Elektronika 60 which is something like an 11/03 clone but it isn't a clone. It has a Q-BUS with connecteors like DECs original but with metric pin raster. Boards are bigger and the used chips and the schematics are totally different in most cases.S Which model? Do you have a matching terminal? I believe one of the 60 models was used to implement the original tetris. It requires a special terminals, although hacked binaries that work on VT52-compatibles are out there. /P For the exact model I must take a look to the card cage first.. It has an M2 processor Board: http://www.tiffe.de/Robotron/PDP-VAX/E60/CPU-oben.jpg ...and I have a terminal but it is't functional again jet.. Nevertheless I've played a russian Tetris on that machine, OS was FODOS 2.something (RT11 V4.x). I've modified the SLU board to connect a RS232 insead of the current loop und used an xterm to play with that machine (Seyon Terminal Program). Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Straße 42, 09600 Oberschöna, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, i...@tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
Re: organizing a trip to Cuba
I don't know, but there could be some WOW stuff there. I have to admit, the day I heard Barak Obama said the US was going to free up restrictions with Cuba I thought about the carsand the COMPUTERS!...UNIVAC? IBM 701? Anything could be there. On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 6:46 AM, Paul Birkel pbir...@gmail.com wrote: I wonder to what Soviet equipment they would have upgraded? On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 5:06 PM, william degnan billdeg...@gmail.com wrote: http://millennialmainframer.com/2014/12/ibm-still-waiting-cuba-pay-mainframes/ Who's up for it? B
Re: organizing a trip to Cuba
I wonder to what Soviet equipment they would have upgraded? On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 5:06 PM, william degnan billdeg...@gmail.com wrote: http://millennialmainframer.com/2014/12/ibm-still-waiting-cuba-pay-mainframes/ Who's up for it? B
Re: organizing a trip to Cuba
On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 12:46 PM, Paul Birkel pbir...@gmail.com wrote: I wonder to what Soviet equipment they would have upgraded? On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 5:06 PM, william degnan billdeg...@gmail.com http://millennialmainframer.com/2014/12/ibm-still-waiting-cuba-pay-mainframes/ I wonder what kind of intelligence the Soviets gained from the ex-IBM mainframes there. At that point in time a lot of the US defense (NORAD) was run off of the SAGE setup, which must have had some 650s as a component, right?
RE: organizing a trip to Cuba
I bought the January 1975 Popular Electronics (Altair Computer issue) at the US Navy Exchange in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mitscher_DDG35_Cuba_Jan_1975.jpg Michael Holley -Original Message- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ian S. King Sent: Monday, June 22, 2015 5:59 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Subject: Re: organizing a trip to Cuba ROAD TRIP! On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 2:06 PM, william degnan billdeg...@gmail.com wrote: http://millennialmainframer.com/2014/12/ibm-still-waiting-cuba-pay-mai nframes/ Who's up for it? B -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School http://ischool.uw.edu Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal http://tribunalvoices.org Value Sensitive Design Research Lab http://vsdesign.org University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: Only Nixon could go to China.
Re: organizing a trip to Cuba
Jonathan Katz wrote: [..] I wonder what kind of intelligence the Soviets gained from the ex-IBM mainframes there. At that point in time a lot of the US defense (NORAD) was run off of the SAGE setup, which must have had some 650s as a component, right? Jonathan, I think it is _really_ naive to think that the Soviets gained any big knowledge from that old Mainfraimes. The soviets build the sputnik, atomic bombs and intercontinental ROckets w/o to find such things on cuba at all. There was'nt any technological difference betwenn the US and the USSR at this time. Please, please all americans, don't think that russians are stupid. There was always a _really_ big difference between consumer and military electronics at the times of the iron curtain in the USSR. Don't ever think that they have something to copy to get things (nevertheless they always copy something, but chineses are more bad..1) ). Next thing that I really whish to get recogniced: No one can win a war anymore, even not the americans or the NATO. ...that only since I hear that rattle of sabers again from the US and German Government. They have droven Putin in to a corner with that ukrainian Revolution and there is nothing curious or not understandable in the sight of what he does now. As for IBM's claims.. maybe the cuban government can write an Invoice for the costs of the Pigs Bay Invasion to the US government and then use that money to pay the bill? 1) Yes they copied the PDP11 and the VAX but, They made an VAX Chip that's compatible to the VAX730...and we all know that the VAX730 ist not an one chip solution as the russian chip is. Is that a copy at all? There are an entire row of PDP11 Microprocessors, K1801VM 1,2,3, N1806VM2 the same as the K1801VM2 in CMOS and others, chips that in this form never where build from DEC. Look at the MK90 here: http://www.pisi.com.pl/piotr433/ The MK90 is PDP11 compatible Regardl, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Straße 42, 09600 Oberschöna, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, i...@tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
Re: organizing a trip to Cuba
On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 05:59:08PM -0700, Ian S. King wrote: ROAD TRIP! It is going to take a lot of bulldozers to build a road to Cuba ... On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 2:06 PM, william degnan billdeg...@gmail.com wrote: http://millennialmainframer.com/2014/12/ibm-still-waiting-cuba-pay-mainframes/ Who's up for it? B -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School http://ischool.uw.edu Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal http://tribunalvoices.org Value Sensitive Design Research Lab http://vsdesign.org University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: Only Nixon could go to China. -- Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work. -- Thomas A. Edison
Re: organizing a trip to Cuba
Zitat von Sean Caron sca...@umich.edu: I've spent a lot of time researching computer engineering in the Eastern Bloc ... ...being somewhat isolated from what was canonical over here, they also had their share of quite unusual indigenous designs ... a few of the papers I have read discuss experiments with hybrid analog/digital computers, ternary logic, and the Elbrus VLIW design would have been fairly innovative for the time ... I was pretty impressed, when I read through the documents back than. It was a very nice design. bad thing was, it couldn't execute x86 code, so nobody in the west touched it :(
Re: organizing a trip to Cuba
On 2015-06-24 02:06, Mark J. Blair wrote: On Jun 23, 2015, at 09:32 , Holm Tiffe h...@freibergnet.de wrote: 1) Yes they copied the PDP11 and the VAX but, They made an VAX Chip that's compatible to the VAX730...and we all know that the VAX730 ist not an one chip solution as the russian chip is. Ooh! Is there any chance I could get my hands on one of those single-chip VAX730 clone machines? That sounds quite cool. Well, unless I'm mistaken, when the Russian VAX-11/730 on a chip came, DEC had already produced the uVAX II, which is also just a chip, but much faster than an 11/730, so it's not exactly as if the Russians were outperforming what DEC was doing... Exactly when did this Russian chip come out, by the way? Curious on exactly how far DEC had come at the time of that chip. :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip - B. Idol
Re: organizing a trip to Cuba
One way to find out! On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Sean Caron sca...@umich.edu wrote: I've spent a lot of time researching computer engineering in the Eastern Bloc ... there aren't a lot of sources here in the West that really describe well everything they did over there ... my Russian skills are absolutely awful so most of my knowledge derives from these secondhand summary papers that were written ... I always found it intriguing; while they did their share of cloning Western designs, or creating a local spin on a design from the West with some architectural modifications or enhancements; being somewhat isolated from what was canonical over here, they also had their share of quite unusual indigenous designs ... a few of the papers I have read discuss experiments with hybrid analog/digital computers, ternary logic, and the Elbrus VLIW design would have been fairly innovative for the time ... the BESM-6 was not a complete slouch when first introduced; even today, there are some interesting designs coming out of the CIS, like the Multiclet CPU ... I'd love to get my hands on a developer board but they are a little spendy ... And that's not to mention the computer industries in Hungary (I'm sure everyone here has seen the Hampage!); East Germany and so on. Peripherals, I think they had a harder time with, due to manufacturing tolerance and QC issues; maybe on this side the export controls were a bit looser on peripherals versus CPUs ... I've also read the story about CDC ... I understand they did some peripherals business in the Eastern Bloc as did some of the other players ... i.e. Memorex? So one is perhaps less inclined to see indigenous peripherals, but there was a fair bit of indigenous design in electronics, from what I understand. Back to the thread, though, I do have to wonder how much old IBM big iron is still ... or was ever there ... in Cuba ... I could see typewriters, sure, maybe some punched-card business machines ... and of course Guantanamo is still occupied by the USA so that doesn't count ... but full-on computers? Most of those big IBM machines would have been luxuries yet for a business here in the USA, at the time the Cuban Revolution had ended ... I can't imagine too many would have made it to the island? BTW hat tip on the Electronika MK-90 ... that's cool :O Best, Sean On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 1:09 PM, Chuck Guzis ccl...@sydex.com wrote: On 06/23/2015 09:32 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: Jonathan, I think it is _really_ naive to think that the Soviets gained any big knowledge from that old Mainfraimes. The soviets build the sputnik, atomic bombs and intercontinental ROckets w/o to find such things on cuba at all. There was'nt any technological difference betwenn the US and the USSR at this time. I remember that in the day, the Bulgarians (and probably other Warsaw-pact countries) were particularly adept at building virtual clones of US peripherals. In the 70s, a couple of the CDC brass paid a visit and confirmed the story. It was a trade war, in some respects--not just a cold war. The USSR didn't respect western copyrights and patents, and western countries reciprocated. After 1990, some amends were made (cf. restored copyright in the US). It had its bright spots--the West got to hear music by USSR composers (e.g. Shostakovich, Prokofiev) played more often than they would had the works enjoyed IP protection. Doubtless, Western music got a good hearing behind the iron curtain. --Chuck
Re: organizing a trip to Cuba
On 06/23/2015 11:59 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: Think that's ok for you? (not for me as for most people on the world, but they simplay take the rights to do this which really pisses me of) If yes, for sure you want to call it stupid that IBM still want's to get payd for the old Mainframes, don't you? No, it's not okay with me. We are entering a phase of world history where trans-national interests pretty much subvert national and democratic interests and simply create laws to further their own needs. We are, in my own humble opinion, entering a brave new world. I'm not at all sure that I like it. --Chuck
