Re: [CentOS] CentOS Stream from bottom works, what is this?

[Johnny Hughes]

On 12/10/20 10:50 AM, m...@tdiehl.org wrote:
> On Wed, 9 Dec 2020, Johnny Hughes wrote:
> 
>> On 12/9/20 8:54 AM, Bernstein, Noam CIV USN NRL (6393) Washington DC
>> (USA) via CentOS wrote:
>>> On Dec 9, 2020, at 9:45 AM, Johnny Hughes
>>> mailto:joh...@centos.org>> wrote:
>>>
>>> CentOS Stream is built from the currently released RHEL Source Code +
>>> 0.1
>>>
>>> So if RHEL 8.3 is released .. Stream is the Source Code (built) that
>>> will become 8.4 in a few months.
>>>
>>> If this statement is exactly correct, then I think a lot of the
>>> issues in this thread may be easy to address.  However, the question
>>> is whether it is really
>>> "That will become"
>>> or actually
>>> "That might become, if it turns out to be stable enough,"
>>>
>>> I.e., to me the critical question is how often (in practice) will
>>> updates that have problems, and will not actually make it into RHEL,
>>> end up in CentOS Stream.  Presumably all such updates will be
>>> superseded in Stream by corrected ones, before they're in RHEL.
>>>
>>> In fact, would it be possible, to list the final versions of each
>>> package's update at the moment of the RHEL release, and only do the
>>> CentOS Stream update based on that list?
>>>
>>
>> There is one source for the source code that will be used.  While in
>> stream it will iterative (the push a bunch of changes today .. the build
>> those change today).  Those go through a CI process and get released
>> into stream.
>>
>> When it comes time to build rhel 8.4 it will come from the same source
>> code.
> 
> So if I understand this correctly, centos8 + will basically be a rolling
> release
> and we will never know what we are really running. Is this correct?

You will be running CentOS Stream 8.

It is not a rolling release in the sense of .. it moves from Stream 8 to
Stream 9 .. it will be Stream 8 until you manually move to Stream 9 or
we get to the EOL (Currently May 31 2024).

> 
> To put it another way all of the stability we are used to will be gone
> and in
> order to stay up to date with stream I could potentially need to reboot
> machines
> daily depending on what packages $REDHAT developer decides to work on
> that day.

Well .. they will be working on the next RHEL point release.  So the
package will be from 8.4 if the current release is 8.3 and you are
running  CentOS Stream 8.


It would be from 9.2 if the current release was 9.1 and you were on
CentOS Stream 9.
> 
> Am I missing something?
> 


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Re: [CentOS] CentOS Stream from bottom works, what is this?

[Leon Fauster via CentOS]

Am 10.12.20 um 18:09 schrieb Matthew Miller:

On Thu, Dec 10, 2020 at 05:02:17PM +, Bernstein, Noam CIV USN NRL (6393) 
Washington DC (USA) via CentOS wrote:

That's my understanding, iff you automatically install all CentOS stream
updates the moment they become available. But I still don't see why nearly
no one is going for the idea that there be some way (ideally automated) to
tag all the packages at the point of the RedHat release, and install only
those from Stream once the RHEL release is ready?


Yeah, I have some sysadmin friends already working on exactly this for their
deployment in a large-scale academic setting.



Will we know that point in time everytime before releasing? Because on 
release day the Stream repo is already a step forward. Albeit when this

works then the situation are more worse then with CentOS Linux release
work and the time shift compared to RHEL release. Why? Because 6 month 
updates are accumulated and not installed? Even cherry-picking is crazy.
The audience here needs something different - but this was already 
stated elsewhere!


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Re: [CentOS] CentOS Stream from bottom works, what is this?

[Leon Fauster via CentOS]

Am 10.12.20 um 18:02 schrieb Bernstein, Noam CIV USN NRL (6393) 
Washington DC (USA) via CentOS:

On Dec 10, 2020, at 11:50 AM, m...@tdiehl.org wrote:

So if I understand this correctly, centos8 + will basically be a rolling release
and we will never know what we are really running. Is this correct?


That's my understanding, iff you automatically install all CentOS stream 
updates the moment they become available.  But I still don't see why nearly no 
one is going for the idea that there be some way (ideally automated) to tag all 
the packages at the point of the RedHat release, and install only those from 
Stream once the RHEL release is ready?




Evaluating all the fragmented informations (another topic; communication 
to community) I get the impression that CXStream will never have a state
that reflects RHEL point releases (not 100%). Why? Well CVE are one 
reason and another will be the different parts that are moving 
differently forward and the late parts (CVE coming after RHEL release) 
and so on ...


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Re: [CentOS] CentOS Stream from bottom works, what is this?

[Japheth Cleaver]

On 12/10/2020 9:08 AM, Matthew Miller wrote:

On Thu, Dec 10, 2020 at 11:50:00AM -0500, m...@tdiehl.org wrote:

So if I understand this correctly, centos8 + will basically be a rolling
release and we will never know what we are really running. Is this
correct?

No, this is not the case. There will be continuous updates, but all of these
updates are ones that are planned to go into a RHEL minor release, with all
of the normal things that will imply. As Brendan said, .y stream development
is really not all that exciting.


"[W]e’ll be shifting focus from CentOS Linux, the rebuild of Red Hat 
Enterprise Linux (RHEL), to CentOS Stream, which tracks just/ahead/of a 
current RHEL release. CentOS Linux 8, as a rebuild of RHEL 8, will end 
at the end of 2021. CentOS Stream continues after that date, serving as 
the upstream (development) branch of Red Hat Enterprise Linux It 
gives the CentOS contributor community a great deal of influence in the 
future of RHEL."



Someone (or several someones) at RedHat is/are very confused.

As I wrote elsewhere, CentOS Whatever cannot be both upstream and 
downstream of RHEL and serve both roles adequately. If CentOS Stream 
remains just a CR/Early Access for updates that have passed all 
decision-making and QA processes and are well on their way to the 
upcoming RHEL point release, then there's no real input that can be had 
here, and there also appears to be no change from what CentOS Stream has 
been for this entire EL8 cycle.


If so, then the "great deal of influence" and "development/upstream 
branch" is meaningless drivel and the death of CentOS Linux (the 
rebuild) needs to be considered on its own merits as a distinct act by 
RedHat without distraction.


A true "Enterprise Upstream" distinct from Fedora, where the community 
has a snowball's chance at preventing laptop-focused Fedora-isms from 
destabilizing the core, is a niche begging to be filled. But that's not 
what's being presented to us, and telling SIGs to poke around on Stream 
instead of Linux does nothing for the vast majority of use cases 
external to RedHat.


If the decision-makers (not the CentOS board, clearly) are being 
presented these responses then they should realize that the community 
expects a real post-mortem and explanation here.


-jc

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Re: [CentOS] CentOS Stream from bottom works, what is this?

[Phil Perry]

On 10/12/2020 17:20, Matthew Miller wrote:

On Thu, Dec 10, 2020 at 12:11:51PM -0500, Phelps, Matthew wrote:

Yeah, I have some sysadmin friends already working on exactly this for
their deployment in a large-scale academic setting.


Do you not see the huge irony here?
Why should a sysadmin have to do this?
We shouldn't.


Well, I don't think you have to. But it's open source and it's cool that you
*can* do things like this if you want to.




LOL, did you do that deliberately or did you honestly not get what 
Matthew (Phelps) was saying?


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Re: [CentOS] CentOS Stream from bottom works, what is this?

[Phelps, Matthew]

On Thu, Dec 10, 2020 at 12:20 PM Matthew Miller  wrote:

> On Thu, Dec 10, 2020 at 12:11:51PM -0500, Phelps, Matthew wrote:
> > > Yeah, I have some sysadmin friends already working on exactly this for
> > > their deployment in a large-scale academic setting.
> > >
> > Do you not see the huge irony here?
> > Why should a sysadmin have to do this?
> > We shouldn't.
>
> Well, I don't think you have to. But it's open source and it's cool that
> you
> *can* do things like this if you want to.
>
>
>
The blindness is absolutely amazing.

We don't look at this as a fun little project we can endlessly dick around
with. The *vast* majority of CenOS installations are on
servers/workstations in large *enterprises*. That's what the "E" in RHEL
stands for. Remember?.

This is why we don't use your Fedora. It's too unstable. And the lifetime
is *way* too short.

We need a stable operating system.  We had one. We no longer do because of
what your company did to us. And we can't afford $300+ per machine.

I respectfully request that you keep that in mind when discussing things in
the CenOS list. Your viewpoint is from the Fedora side.



> --
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> 
> Fedora Project Leader
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Center for Astrophysics | Harvard & Smithsonian


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Re: [CentOS] CentOS Stream from bottom works, what is this?

[Tom Bishop]

On Thu, Dec 10, 2020 at 11:09 AM Matthew Miller  wrote:

> On Thu, Dec 10, 2020 at 05:02:17PM +, Bernstein, Noam CIV USN NRL
> (6393) Washington DC (USA) via CentOS wrote:
> > That's my understanding, iff you automatically install all CentOS stream
> > updates the moment they become available. But I still don't see why
> nearly
> > no one is going for the idea that there be some way (ideally automated)
> to
> > tag all the packages at the point of the RedHat release, and install only
> > those from Stream once the RHEL release is ready?
>
> Yeah, I have some sysadmin friends already working on exactly this for
> their
> deployment in a large-scale academic setting.
>
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> 
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SMH, really lets jump through hoops based on an arbitrary decision made by
somebody or somone, who really knows since no one has said how the decision
was reached. I'm pretty sure that most are just going to pack up and find
another home, if I have to spend time doing something i'd rather it be
permanent vs who knows what decision is going to be made next by RH.
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS Stream from bottom works, what is this?

[Matthew Miller]

On Thu, Dec 10, 2020 at 12:11:51PM -0500, Phelps, Matthew wrote:
> > Yeah, I have some sysadmin friends already working on exactly this for
> > their deployment in a large-scale academic setting.
> >
> Do you not see the huge irony here?
> Why should a sysadmin have to do this?
> We shouldn't.

Well, I don't think you have to. But it's open source and it's cool that you
*can* do things like this if you want to.


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Fedora Project Leader
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS Stream from bottom works, what is this?

[Phelps, Matthew]

On Thu, Dec 10, 2020 at 12:09 PM Matthew Miller  wrote:

> On Thu, Dec 10, 2020 at 05:02:17PM +, Bernstein, Noam CIV USN NRL
> (6393) Washington DC (USA) via CentOS wrote:
> > That's my understanding, iff you automatically install all CentOS stream
> > updates the moment they become available. But I still don't see why
> nearly
> > no one is going for the idea that there be some way (ideally automated)
> to
> > tag all the packages at the point of the RedHat release, and install only
> > those from Stream once the RHEL release is ready?
>
> Yeah, I have some sysadmin friends already working on exactly this for
> their
> deployment in a large-scale academic setting.
>
>
Do you not see the huge irony here?

Why should a sysadmin have to do this?

We shouldn't.

-- 

*Matt Phelps*

*Information Technology Specialist, Systems Administrator*

(Computation Facility, Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory)

Center for Astrophysics | Harvard & Smithsonian


60 Garden Street | MS 39 | Cambridge, MA 02138
email: mphe...@cfa.harvard.edu


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Re: [CentOS] CentOS Stream from bottom works, what is this?

[Matthew Miller]

On Thu, Dec 10, 2020 at 05:02:17PM +, Bernstein, Noam CIV USN NRL (6393) 
Washington DC (USA) via CentOS wrote:
> That's my understanding, iff you automatically install all CentOS stream
> updates the moment they become available. But I still don't see why nearly
> no one is going for the idea that there be some way (ideally automated) to
> tag all the packages at the point of the RedHat release, and install only
> those from Stream once the RHEL release is ready?

Yeah, I have some sysadmin friends already working on exactly this for their
deployment in a large-scale academic setting.

-- 
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Fedora Project Leader
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS Stream from bottom works, what is this?

[Matthew Miller]

On Thu, Dec 10, 2020 at 11:50:00AM -0500, m...@tdiehl.org wrote:
> So if I understand this correctly, centos8 + will basically be a rolling
> release and we will never know what we are really running. Is this
> correct?

No, this is not the case. There will be continuous updates, but all of these
updates are ones that are planned to go into a RHEL minor release, with all
of the normal things that will imply. As Brendan said, .y stream development
is really not all that exciting.

> To put it another way all of the stability we are used to will be gone and
> in order to stay up to date with stream I could potentially need to reboot
> machines daily depending on what packages $REDHAT developer decides to
> work on that day.

I mean, if there are updates you want that day, sure?

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Re: [CentOS] CentOS Stream from bottom works, what is this?

[Phelps, Matthew]

On Thu, Dec 10, 2020 at 12:02 PM Bernstein, Noam CIV USN NRL (6393)
Washington DC (USA) via CentOS  wrote:

> > On Dec 10, 2020, at 11:50 AM, m...@tdiehl.org wrote:
> >
> > So if I understand this correctly, centos8 + will basically be a rolling
> release
> > and we will never know what we are really running. Is this correct?
>
> That's my understanding, iff you automatically install all CentOS stream
> updates the moment they become available.  But I still don't see why nearly
> no one is going for the idea that there be some way (ideally automated) to
> tag all the packages at the point of the RedHat release, and install only
> those from Stream once the RHEL release is ready?
>


That's called CentOS  8, and it's been killed.


-- 

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*Information Technology Specialist, Systems Administrator*

(Computation Facility, Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory)

Center for Astrophysics | Harvard & Smithsonian


60 Garden Street | MS 39 | Cambridge, MA 02138
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS Stream from bottom works, what is this?

[Bernstein, Noam CIV USN NRL (6393) Washington DC (USA) via CentOS]

> On Dec 10, 2020, at 11:50 AM, m...@tdiehl.org wrote:
> 
> So if I understand this correctly, centos8 + will basically be a rolling 
> release
> and we will never know what we are really running. Is this correct?

That's my understanding, iff you automatically install all CentOS stream 
updates the moment they become available.  But I still don't see why nearly no 
one is going for the idea that there be some way (ideally automated) to tag all 
the packages at the point of the RedHat release, and install only those from 
Stream once the RHEL release is ready?

Noam
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS Stream from bottom works, what is this?

[me]

On Wed, 9 Dec 2020, Johnny Hughes wrote:


On 12/9/20 8:54 AM, Bernstein, Noam CIV USN NRL (6393) Washington DC
(USA) via CentOS wrote:

On Dec 9, 2020, at 9:45 AM, Johnny Hughes 
mailto:joh...@centos.org>> wrote:

CentOS Stream is built from the currently released RHEL Source Code + 0.1

So if RHEL 8.3 is released .. Stream is the Source Code (built) that
will become 8.4 in a few months.

If this statement is exactly correct, then I think a lot of the issues in this 
thread may be easy to address.  However, the question is whether it is really
"That will become"
or actually
"That might become, if it turns out to be stable enough,"

I.e., to me the critical question is how often (in practice) will updates that 
have problems, and will not actually make it into RHEL, end up in CentOS 
Stream.  Presumably all such updates will be superseded in Stream by corrected 
ones, before they're in RHEL.

In fact, would it be possible, to list the final versions of each package's 
update at the moment of the RHEL release, and only do the CentOS Stream update 
based on that list?



There is one source for the source code that will be used.  While in
stream it will iterative (the push a bunch of changes today .. the build
those change today).  Those go through a CI process and get released
into stream.

When it comes time to build rhel 8.4 it will come from the same source code.


So if I understand this correctly, centos8 + will basically be a rolling release
and we will never know what we are really running. Is this correct?

To put it another way all of the stability we are used to will be gone and in
order to stay up to date with stream I could potentially need to reboot machines
daily depending on what packages $REDHAT developer decides to work on that day.

Am I missing something?

Regards,

--
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS Stream from bottom works, what is this?

[Thomas Bendler]

On Thu, Dec 10, 2020 at 3:54 PM Simon Matter  wrote:

> [...]
> Do you mean something like this?
>
> https://linux.oracle.com/switch/centos2ol.sh
> [...]


Haven't tried this one, but yes, this is from a principal point of view
what I mean.

Kind regards Thomas
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS Stream from bottom works, what is this?

[Simon Matter]

> On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 7:19 PM Matthew Miller  wrote:
>
>> [...]
>> In the cases where RHEL + 0.1 (note not +1) won't work, I think it's
>> incredibly likely that this will be covered by the expanded low- and
>> no-cost
>> RHEL offerings.
>>
>> Part of the buried lede here is that with more RHEL accessibility, a lot
>> of
>> the function that CentOS served for users will not be necessary anymore.
>> [...]
>
>
> If RH plans to release a successor for CentOS 8 like RHEL 8 Free or so,
> this has become a communication disaster par excellence. The announcement
> with all the associated uncertainties and criticism was already picked up
> by the major press. I've no clue who is in charge of RH for the
> communication, but the team was quite bad in their job.
>
> If I plan something like this I would say, listen, CentOS will be released
> as Stream only in the future but the deprecated CentOS versions will be
> replaced by X. Before we do this change we'll provide to you a script that
> transforms your current CentOS installation into the designated successor.

Do you mean something like this?

https://linux.oracle.com/switch/centos2ol.sh

> I'm quite relaxed as I don't use CentOS anymore except for private stuff.
> But I can fully understand those who already upgraded to C8 with the
> assumption in mind that they can use CentOS for the next few years with
> the
> expected behaviour.
>
> Changes are part of the IT and maybe the situation won't become as
> dramatic
> as the one or other may fear (especially if a kind of RHEL 8 Free will be
> released), but the communication around this change is a perfect example
> how you shouldn't do the communication.
>
> Kind regards Thomas
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS Stream from bottom works, what is this?

[Thomas Bendler]

On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 7:19 PM Matthew Miller  wrote:

> [...]
> In the cases where RHEL + 0.1 (note not +1) won't work, I think it's
> incredibly likely that this will be covered by the expanded low- and
> no-cost
> RHEL offerings.
>
> Part of the buried lede here is that with more RHEL accessibility, a lot of
> the function that CentOS served for users will not be necessary anymore.
> [...]


If RH plans to release a successor for CentOS 8 like RHEL 8 Free or so,
this has become a communication disaster par excellence. The announcement
with all the associated uncertainties and criticism was already picked up
by the major press. I've no clue who is in charge of RH for the
communication, but the team was quite bad in their job.

If I plan something like this I would say, listen, CentOS will be released
as Stream only in the future but the deprecated CentOS versions will be
replaced by X. Before we do this change we'll provide to you a script that
transforms your current CentOS installation into the designated successor.
I'm quite relaxed as I don't use CentOS anymore except for private stuff.
But I can fully understand those who already upgraded to C8 with the
assumption in mind that they can use CentOS for the next few years with the
expected behaviour.

Changes are part of the IT and maybe the situation won't become as dramatic
as the one or other may fear (especially if a kind of RHEL 8 Free will be
released), but the communication around this change is a perfect example
how you shouldn't do the communication.

Kind regards Thomas
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS Stream from bottom works, what is this?

[Johnny Hughes]

On 12/9/20 12:55 PM, James Szinger wrote:
> On Wed, 9 Dec 2020 13:22:15 -0500
> Matthew Miller  wrote:
> 
>> On Wed, Dec 09, 2020 at 09:58:10AM -0600, Barry Brimer wrote:
>>> If the same happened in the previous question but was in a package
>>> or set of packages that was being rebased in 8.5 would it work the
>>> same way?  
>>
>> Hmmm. I'm not sure I understand you. There won't be a dump of 8.5
>> packages into Stream at some point. They will be updated there as
>> ready.
> 
> The scenario I imagine is this:
> 
> start out the same
> EL 8.4 foo-1.1.1-1
> stream-8   foo-1.1.1-1
> 
> update stream for EL 8.5
> 
> EL 8.4 foo-1.1.1-1
> stream-8   foo-1.2.0-1
> 
> CVE!
> 
> EL 8.4 foo-1.1.2-1
> stream-8   foo-1.2.1-1
> 
> Result: foo-1.1.2-1 is in EL but not stream.

Sure .. they only time things will match 100% is at point release time.
 All the packages in 8.4 will have at some point been in stream when
rhel 8.4 is released.

Packages in between point releases will not necessarily be in stream ..
but their equivalent will be.  It will have the CVE and/or bugfix .. it
will not likely be the exact same envr, but the one that will be in the
new point release.



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Re: [CentOS] CentOS Stream from bottom works, what is this?

[James Szinger]

On Wed, 9 Dec 2020 13:22:15 -0500
Matthew Miller  wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 09, 2020 at 09:58:10AM -0600, Barry Brimer wrote:
> > If the same happened in the previous question but was in a package
> > or set of packages that was being rebased in 8.5 would it work the
> > same way?  
> 
> Hmmm. I'm not sure I understand you. There won't be a dump of 8.5
> packages into Stream at some point. They will be updated there as
> ready.

The scenario I imagine is this:

start out the same
EL 8.4 foo-1.1.1-1
stream-8   foo-1.1.1-1

update stream for EL 8.5

EL 8.4 foo-1.1.1-1
stream-8   foo-1.2.0-1

CVE!

EL 8.4 foo-1.1.2-1
stream-8   foo-1.2.1-1

Result: foo-1.1.2-1 is in EL but not stream.

Jim
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS Stream from bottom works, what is this?

[Matthew Miller]

On Wed, Dec 09, 2020 at 06:26:22PM +, Bernstein, Noam CIV USN NRL (6393) 
Washington DC (USA) via CentOS wrote:
> > Absolutely. The only path into RHEL minor releases that isn't through Stream
> > is for CVEs and other embargoed changes. And those will go back into Stream
> > as soon as they can.
> Does that mean that it will always be possible to recreate the set of
> final RHEL point release packages by cherry-picking from Stream? If so,
> isn't that a solution (and, I'd argue, _the_ solution if there's some
> officially supported way of grabbing that set)?

There might be some complexity I'm not seeing, but offhand I don't see why
not.



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Re: [CentOS] CentOS Stream from bottom works, what is this?

[Japheth Cleaver]

On 12/9/2020 10:18 AM, Matthew Miller wrote:

On Wed, Dec 09, 2020 at 04:03:42PM +, Laack, Andrea P wrote:

The companies that pay for RHEL licenses for production and use CentOS for
test will be left with a large problem. They will either need to purchase
double the number of RHEL licenses and switch to RHEL for testing or go to
another distribution. RHEL + 1 will not work for testing application
compatibility with patches.

In the cases where RHEL + 0.1 (note not +1) won't work, I think it's
incredibly likely that this will be covered by the expanded low- and no-cost
RHEL offerings.

Part of the buried lede here is that with more RHEL accessibility, a lot of
the function that CentOS served for users will not be necessary anymore.



It's buried, but the decision-makers failed to understand that the 
suddenness of this decision, outside of the community expectation for 
CentOS Linux continuing to be a thing (remember: Scientific Linux 
continued supporting SL6 right up to the end even after announcing that 
there would be no SL8), calls into question the stability of a lot of 
RedHat's actions when it comes to distro decisions. Based on other 
emails, the CentOS Board perhaps understood this and the people issuing 
directions from RedHat perhaps did not. That does not bode well.


Enterprises, and enterprise users, need reliability and confidence that 
their choices are the correct ones. How will RedHat/IBM restore 
confidence in the longevity of the offerings it's producing?


-jc

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Re: [CentOS] CentOS Stream from bottom works, what is this?

[Phelps, Matthew]

On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 1:18 PM Matthew Miller  wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 09, 2020 at 04:03:42PM +, Laack, Andrea P wrote:
> > The companies that pay for RHEL licenses for production and use CentOS
> for
> > test will be left with a large problem. They will either need to purchase
> > double the number of RHEL licenses and switch to RHEL for testing or go
> to
> > another distribution. RHEL + 1 will not work for testing application
> > compatibility with patches.
>
> In the cases where RHEL + 0.1 (note not +1) won't work, I think it's
> incredibly likely that this will be covered by the expanded low- and
> no-cost
> RHEL offerings.
>
> Part of the buried lede here is that with more RHEL accessibility, a lot of
> the function that CentOS served for users will not be necessary anymore.
>
>
> > No company will want to pay double the amount they are currently paying
> > for RHEL licenses. This is not even addressing the cost and time it will
> > take to switch over all the test servers.
>
> Yeah, Red Hat knows this. Hence the above. If you have a specific case,
> please email the centos-questi...@redhat.com address -- that goes to the
> people designing the new programs, not to sales.
>
> --
> Matthew Miller
> 
> Fedora Project Leader
> __
>


Don't you think it might have been a good idea to solicit these type of
situations *before* killing CenOS 8?

After the complete and utter disaster RedHat has shat upon the World with
the handling of this, there is no way anyone will ever trust that a "free"
or "low cost" version of RHEL will stay that way for any length of time. To
suggest so to this list, today, is ludicrous.

Unless there's a reversal of course here, I, and many others, will never
recommend any RHEL product to my superiors from now on.

(I'm hoping the horse isn't dead yet.)

-- 

*Matt Phelps*

*Information Technology Specialist, Systems Administrator*

(Computation Facility, Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory)

Center for Astrophysics | Harvard & Smithsonian


60 Garden Street | MS 39 | Cambridge, MA 02138
email: mphe...@cfa.harvard.edu


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Re: [CentOS] CentOS Stream from bottom works, what is this?

[Bernstein, Noam CIV USN NRL (6393) Washington DC (USA) via CentOS]

> On Dec 9, 2020, at 1:22 PM, Matthew Miller  wrote:
> 
> On Wed, Dec 09, 2020 at 09:58:10AM -0600, Barry Brimer wrote:
>> If a bug were to make it into CentOS Stream, and identified before
>> RHEL 8.4 was released, would an updated/fixed package be produced
>> and placed into CentOS Stream?
> 
> Absolutely. The only path into RHEL minor releases that isn't through Stream
> is for CVEs and other embargoed changes. And those will go back into Stream
> as soon as they can.

Does that mean that it will always be possible to recreate the set of final 
RHEL point release packages by cherry-picking from Stream?  If so, isn't that a 
solution (and, I'd argue, _the_ solution if there's some officially supported 
way of grabbing that set)?

Noam
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS Stream from bottom works, what is this?

[Matthew Miller]

On Wed, Dec 09, 2020 at 09:58:10AM -0600, Barry Brimer wrote:
> If a bug were to make it into CentOS Stream, and identified before
> RHEL 8.4 was released, would an updated/fixed package be produced
> and placed into CentOS Stream?

Absolutely. The only path into RHEL minor releases that isn't through Stream
is for CVEs and other embargoed changes. And those will go back into Stream
as soon as they can.


> If a bug were to make it past CentOS Stream and into RHEL 8.4 and
> the bug is then identified and fixed after the release of RHEL 8.4
> would an updated/fixed package be produced and placed into CentOS
> Stream in the same timeframe or only if/when updated packages and
> their dependencies were made/released into CentOS Stream for updated
> features for RHEL 8.5?

It might depend on the situation, but I would expect the fix to land
quickly in Stream.


> If the same happened in the previous question but was in a package
> or set of packages that was being rebased in 8.5 would it work the
> same way?

Hmmm. I'm not sure I understand you. There won't be a dump of 8.5 packages
into Stream at some point. They will be updated there as ready.

-- 
Matthew Miller

Fedora Project Leader
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS Stream from bottom works, what is this?

[Matthew Miller]

On Wed, Dec 09, 2020 at 04:03:42PM +, Laack, Andrea P wrote:
> The companies that pay for RHEL licenses for production and use CentOS for
> test will be left with a large problem. They will either need to purchase
> double the number of RHEL licenses and switch to RHEL for testing or go to
> another distribution. RHEL + 1 will not work for testing application
> compatibility with patches.

In the cases where RHEL + 0.1 (note not +1) won't work, I think it's
incredibly likely that this will be covered by the expanded low- and no-cost
RHEL offerings.

Part of the buried lede here is that with more RHEL accessibility, a lot of
the function that CentOS served for users will not be necessary anymore.


> No company will want to pay double the amount they are currently paying
> for RHEL licenses. This is not even addressing the cost and time it will
> take to switch over all the test servers.

Yeah, Red Hat knows this. Hence the above. If you have a specific case,
please email the centos-questi...@redhat.com address -- that goes to the
people designing the new programs, not to sales.

-- 
Matthew Miller

Fedora Project Leader
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS Stream from bottom works, what is this?

[Walter H.]

On 09.12.2020 18:12, Johnny Hughes wrote:

On 12/9/20 11:01 AM, Walter H. wrote:

On 09.12.2020 15:45, Johnny Hughes wrote:

On 12/9/20 8:41 AM, Walter H. wrote:

p.s. can someone tell in as short as possible what this CentOS Stream is
in comparison to CentOS 8?

CentOS Stream is built from the currently released RHEL Source Code + 0.1

So if RHEL 8.3 is released .. Stream is the Source Code (built) that
will become 8.4 in a few months.

what does this mean in comparison to CentOS 8, which sources are used
for this?

to be concrete:

I can download this ISO of CentOS 8

(1) CentOS-8.3.2011-x86_64-dvd1.iso

and this ISO fo CentOS Stream

(2) CentOS-Stream-8-x86_64-20201203-dvd1.iso

which sources are used for (1) and which for (2)?

and what does it mean of the update process be 'yum update'

e.g. if one would do this with CentOS 6, there is no way; the support
ended;

with CentOS 8 this will haben one day (somewhat in 2029), and what is
said about this of CentOS Stream?


CentOS Linux 8 is the source code from released current RHEL 8 .. for
now 8.3.  The EOL of CentOS Linux 8 is 31 DEC 2021
when doing 'yum update' regularly this would also be EOL the end of the 
following year?

CentOS Stream 8 is the source cdoe from what be RHEL + 0.1 .. so
currently 8.3 + 0.1 = 8.4.  It will EOL in 31 MAY 2024


this is much longer here, can I update this 'forever' just doing 'yum 
update' regularly?


why I am asking this, I need to choose one option, because my CentOS 6 
VMs are EOL;


and I would practice this the same way I did, when my CentOS 4 became 
EOL, I installed CentOS 6

VM by VM - never used CentOS 5;

e.g. the first one was the DNS-VM, which I used CentOS 6.2,
then the outgoing Mail-server-VM, I used CentOS 6.3
and by doing 'yum update' regularly they all became finally 6.10;

so which should I choose
- CentOS 7: EOL in 2024
- CentOS Stream: EOL also in 2024
(CentOS 8 is no option I guess)

comparing to Windows,
when using Win10, there is no install needed any more, every half year 
function update,

and the other time security/bug fix update;

is doing CentOS Stream the same way?

Thanks,

Walter



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Re: [CentOS] CentOS Stream from bottom works, what is this?

[Oliver Freyermuth via CentOS]

Am 09.12.20 um 18:12 schrieb Johnny Hughes:

On 12/9/20 11:01 AM, Walter H. wrote:

On 09.12.2020 15:45, Johnny Hughes wrote:

On 12/9/20 8:41 AM, Walter H. wrote:

p.s. can someone tell in as short as possible what this CentOS Stream is
in comparison to CentOS 8?

CentOS Stream is built from the currently released RHEL Source Code + 0.1

So if RHEL 8.3 is released .. Stream is the Source Code (built) that
will become 8.4 in a few months.


what does this mean in comparison to CentOS 8, which sources are used
for this?

to be concrete:

I can download this ISO of CentOS 8

(1) CentOS-8.3.2011-x86_64-dvd1.iso

and this ISO fo CentOS Stream

(2) CentOS-Stream-8-x86_64-20201203-dvd1.iso

which sources are used for (1) and which for (2)?

and what does it mean of the update process be 'yum update'

e.g. if one would do this with CentOS 6, there is no way; the support
ended;

with CentOS 8 this will haben one day (somewhat in 2029), and what is
said about this of CentOS Stream?



CentOS Linux 8 is the source code from released current RHEL 8 .. for
now 8.3.  The EOL of CentOS Linux 8 is 31 DEC 2021

CentOS Stream 8 is the source cdoe from what be RHEL + 0.1 .. so
currently 8.3 + 0.1 = 8.4.  It will EOL in 31 MAY 2024

CentOS Linux 6 EOLed 30 NOV 2020.


A related question: Since Stream 8 will EoL in MAY 2024, when RHEL 8 will enter 
the 5-year-Maintenance Support phase,
in which way will the sources of the updates released for RHEL 8 (modifications 
/ patches of Open Source codes) be released?
Will these still go to git.centos.org, or on a new, to-be-created platform?

Cheers,
Oliver
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS Stream from bottom works, what is this?

[Johnny Hughes]

On 12/9/20 11:01 AM, Walter H. wrote:
> On 09.12.2020 15:45, Johnny Hughes wrote:
>> On 12/9/20 8:41 AM, Walter H. wrote:
>>> p.s. can someone tell in as short as possible what this CentOS Stream is
>>> in comparison to CentOS 8?
>> CentOS Stream is built from the currently released RHEL Source Code + 0.1
>>
>> So if RHEL 8.3 is released .. Stream is the Source Code (built) that
>> will become 8.4 in a few months.
> 
> what does this mean in comparison to CentOS 8, which sources are used
> for this?
> 
> to be concrete:
> 
> I can download this ISO of CentOS 8
> 
> (1) CentOS-8.3.2011-x86_64-dvd1.iso
> 
> and this ISO fo CentOS Stream
> 
> (2) CentOS-Stream-8-x86_64-20201203-dvd1.iso
> 
> which sources are used for (1) and which for (2)?
> 
> and what does it mean of the update process be 'yum update'
> 
> e.g. if one would do this with CentOS 6, there is no way; the support
> ended;
> 
> with CentOS 8 this will haben one day (somewhat in 2029), and what is
> said about this of CentOS Stream?
> 

CentOS Linux 8 is the source code from released current RHEL 8 .. for
now 8.3.  The EOL of CentOS Linux 8 is 31 DEC 2021

CentOS Stream 8 is the source cdoe from what be RHEL + 0.1 .. so
currently 8.3 + 0.1 = 8.4.  It will EOL in 31 MAY 2024

CentOS Linux 6 EOLed 30 NOV 2020.


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Re: [CentOS] CentOS Stream from bottom works, what is this?

[Walter H.]

On 09.12.2020 15:45, Johnny Hughes wrote:

On 12/9/20 8:41 AM, Walter H. wrote:

p.s. can someone tell in as short as possible what this CentOS Stream is
in comparison to CentOS 8?

CentOS Stream is built from the currently released RHEL Source Code + 0.1

So if RHEL 8.3 is released .. Stream is the Source Code (built) that
will become 8.4 in a few months.


what does this mean in comparison to CentOS 8, which sources are used 
for this?


to be concrete:

I can download this ISO of CentOS 8

(1) CentOS-8.3.2011-x86_64-dvd1.iso

and this ISO fo CentOS Stream

(2) CentOS-Stream-8-x86_64-20201203-dvd1.iso

which sources are used for (1) and which for (2)?

and what does it mean of the update process be 'yum update'

e.g. if one would do this with CentOS 6, there is no way; the support ended;

with CentOS 8 this will haben one day (somewhat in 2029), and what is 
said about this of CentOS Stream?


Thanks,

Walter


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Re: [CentOS] CentOS Stream from bottom works, what is this?

[Leon Fauster via CentOS]

Am 09.12.20 um 15:54 schrieb Bernstein, Noam CIV USN NRL (6393) 
Washington DC (USA) via CentOS:

On Dec 9, 2020, at 9:45 AM, Johnny Hughes 
mailto:joh...@centos.org>> wrote:

CentOS Stream is built from the currently released RHEL Source Code + 0.1

So if RHEL 8.3 is released .. Stream is the Source Code (built) that
will become 8.4 in a few months.

If this statement is exactly correct, then I think a lot of the issues in this 
thread may be easy to address.  However, the question is whether it is really
"That will become"
or actually
"That might become, if it turns out to be stable enough,"

I.e., to me the critical question is how often (in practice) will updates that 
have problems, and will not actually make it into RHEL, end up in CentOS 
Stream.  Presumably all such updates will be superseded in Stream by corrected 
ones, before they're in RHEL.

In fact, would it be possible, to list the final versions of each package's 
update at the moment of the RHEL release, and only do the CentOS Stream update 
based on that list?




What should be also taking into account:
- There is no "CentOS" (Linux or Stream does not matter)
that have a life span of 10 years. Centos Stream 8 will
be retired and deleted from the mirrors end of May 2024 Q1!

--
Leon

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Re: [CentOS] CentOS Stream from bottom works, what is this?

[Laack, Andrea P]

The companies that pay for RHEL licenses for production and use CentOS for test 
will be left with a large problem.  They will either need to purchase double 
the number of RHEL licenses and switch to RHEL for testing or go to another 
distribution.  RHEL + 1 will not work for testing application compatibility 
with patches.

No company will want to pay double the amount they are currently paying for 
RHEL licenses.  This is not even addressing the cost and time it will take to 
switch over all the test servers.  

This will cost Red Hat credibility with major companies that they might never 
recover from.  This will cost Red Hat major business.

I will be recommending that my company change to Oracle Linux 8, instead of 
upgrading to RHEL 8.  We will get the same model we are currently using,  Paid 
support for production and free for test servers.

Andrea


-Original Message-
From: CentOS  On Behalf Of Johnny Hughes
Sent: Wednesday, December 9, 2020 8:45 AM
To: centos@centos.org
Subject: {EXTERNAL} Re: [CentOS] CentOS Stream from bottom works, what is this?


CAUTION:  This email originated outside of BSWH; avoid action unless you know 
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badem...@bswhealth.org.

On 12/9/20 8:41 AM, Walter H. wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I just tried installing a VM from the stream ISO and it worked;
> 
> the only thing I would like to have changed as a default config is
> 
> GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX=" net.ifnames=0 ..."
> 
> the reason, I find eth0, eth1, eth2 easier to use than cryptic names 
> like ens33 or ens0p3 or so;
> 
> Walter
> 
> p.s. can someone tell in as short as possible what this CentOS Stream 
> is in comparison to CentOS 8?
> 

CentOS Stream is built from the currently released RHEL Source Code + 0.1

So if RHEL 8.3 is released .. Stream is the Source Code (built) that will 
become 8.4 in a few months.
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS Stream from bottom works, what is this?

[Barry Brimer]

On Wed, 9 Dec 2020, Johnny Hughes wrote:


On 12/9/20 8:54 AM, Bernstein, Noam CIV USN NRL (6393) Washington DC
(USA) via CentOS wrote:

On Dec 9, 2020, at 9:45 AM, Johnny Hughes 
mailto:joh...@centos.org>> wrote:

CentOS Stream is built from the currently released RHEL Source Code + 0.1

So if RHEL 8.3 is released .. Stream is the Source Code (built) that
will become 8.4 in a few months.

If this statement is exactly correct, then I think a lot of the issues in this 
thread may be easy to address.  However, the question is whether it is really
"That will become"
or actually
"That might become, if it turns out to be stable enough,"

I.e., to me the critical question is how often (in practice) will updates that 
have problems, and will not actually make it into RHEL, end up in CentOS 
Stream.  Presumably all such updates will be superseded in Stream by corrected 
ones, before they're in RHEL.

In fact, would it be possible, to list the final versions of each package's 
update at the moment of the RHEL release, and only do the CentOS Stream update 
based on that list?



There is one source for the source code that will be used.  While in
stream it will iterative (the push a bunch of changes today .. the build
those change today).  Those go through a CI process and get released
into stream.

When it comes time to build rhel 8.4 it will come from the same source code.


If a bug were to make it into CentOS Stream, and identified before RHEL 
8.4 was released, would an updated/fixed package be produced and placed into 
CentOS Stream?


If a bug were to make it past CentOS Stream and into RHEL 8.4 and the bug 
is then identified and fixed after the release of RHEL 8.4 would an 
updated/fixed package be produced and placed into CentOS Stream in the 
same timeframe or only if/when updated packages and their dependencies 
were made/released into CentOS Stream for updated features for RHEL 8.5?


If the same happened in the previous question but was in a package or set 
of packages that was being rebased in 8.5 would it work the same way?


Thanks,
Barry
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS Stream from bottom works, what is this?

[Johnny Hughes]

On 12/9/20 8:54 AM, Bernstein, Noam CIV USN NRL (6393) Washington DC
(USA) via CentOS wrote:
> On Dec 9, 2020, at 9:45 AM, Johnny Hughes 
> mailto:joh...@centos.org>> wrote:
> 
> CentOS Stream is built from the currently released RHEL Source Code + 0.1
> 
> So if RHEL 8.3 is released .. Stream is the Source Code (built) that
> will become 8.4 in a few months.
> 
> If this statement is exactly correct, then I think a lot of the issues in 
> this thread may be easy to address.  However, the question is whether it is 
> really
> "That will become"
> or actually
> "That might become, if it turns out to be stable enough,"
> 
> I.e., to me the critical question is how often (in practice) will updates 
> that have problems, and will not actually make it into RHEL, end up in CentOS 
> Stream.  Presumably all such updates will be superseded in Stream by 
> corrected ones, before they're in RHEL.
> 
> In fact, would it be possible, to list the final versions of each package's 
> update at the moment of the RHEL release, and only do the CentOS Stream 
> update based on that list?
> 

There is one source for the source code that will be used.  While in
stream it will iterative (the push a bunch of changes today .. the build
those change today).  Those go through a CI process and get released
into stream.

When it comes time to build rhel 8.4 it will come from the same source code.
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS Stream from bottom works, what is this?

[Bernstein, Noam CIV USN NRL (6393) Washington DC (USA) via CentOS]

On Dec 9, 2020, at 9:45 AM, Johnny Hughes 
mailto:joh...@centos.org>> wrote:

CentOS Stream is built from the currently released RHEL Source Code + 0.1

So if RHEL 8.3 is released .. Stream is the Source Code (built) that
will become 8.4 in a few months.

If this statement is exactly correct, then I think a lot of the issues in this 
thread may be easy to address.  However, the question is whether it is really
"That will become"
or actually
"That might become, if it turns out to be stable enough,"

I.e., to me the critical question is how often (in practice) will updates that 
have problems, and will not actually make it into RHEL, end up in CentOS 
Stream.  Presumably all such updates will be superseded in Stream by corrected 
ones, before they're in RHEL.

In fact, would it be possible, to list the final versions of each package's 
update at the moment of the RHEL release, and only do the CentOS Stream update 
based on that list?

Noam
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS Stream from bottom works, what is this?

[Johnny Hughes]

On 12/9/20 8:41 AM, Walter H. wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I just tried installing a VM from the stream ISO and it worked;
> 
> the only thing I would like to have changed as a default config is
> 
> GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX=" net.ifnames=0 ..."
> 
> the reason, I find eth0, eth1, eth2 easier to use than cryptic names
> like ens33 or ens0p3 or so;
> 
> Walter
> 
> p.s. can someone tell in as short as possible what this CentOS Stream is
> in comparison to CentOS 8?
> 

CentOS Stream is built from the currently released RHEL Source Code + 0.1

So if RHEL 8.3 is released .. Stream is the Source Code (built) that
will become 8.4 in a few months.
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[CentOS] CentOS Stream from bottom works, what is this?

[Walter H.]

Hello,

I just tried installing a VM from the stream ISO and it worked;

the only thing I would like to have changed as a default config is

GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX=" net.ifnames=0 ..."

the reason, I find eth0, eth1, eth2 easier to use than cryptic names 
like ens33 or ens0p3 or so;


Walter

p.s. can someone tell in as short as possible what this CentOS Stream is 
in comparison to CentOS 8?



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