Re: What makes a programmer look low level
I guess we all have our admamant areas :) If I see a Select * I get fairly upset with the developer. In most caees you are bringing back unneeded data and in a large developement envirmoent another programer can not easily step into the code and see what is being selected from where. Adam H On 5/11/05, Glenn Saunders [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 01:14 PM 5/9/2005, you wrote: That reminds me of one...Select * in SQL statements...thats a really big PITA and a sign of a beginner or a lazy coder... I guess that would make me a lazy coder. I don't think this is always the case if your application is evolving a lot. Remember, you never really know on the frontend how many columns you are going to need. The design changes and suddenly you need username, not just user_id. Let's say you have 20 stored procs that select against a table. Now you add a column to the select statement. You have to go through and touch up 20 stored procs to add the new column. That's why I started using views to abstract the column names. But then you have a select * against the view which the dbas didn't like but I'm not sure that has as much of a drain on db resources as a select * against the actual table (kinda like doing NOLOCK against a view which already has a NOLOCK in it, kinda redundant). Over time, hopefully the application will become mature enough that you can lock it down a little more, but it can be a real time-saver in a RAD environment. ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2606 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: What makes a programmer look low level
OK, I'll bite. Why would you *not* use standard CFML tags for the purpose they fullfill? -- Damien McKenna - Web Developer - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014 #include stdjoke.h -Original Message- From: Glenn Saunders [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm also not too fond of code that uses CFINSERT and CFUPDATE usage instead of calling a proc or doing it via cfquery. ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2607 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: What makes a programmer look low level
CFINSERT and CFUPDATE are nice shortcuts, but they're wierd. You're required to have your variable names match the exact column names in the DB, which, unless you have planned for that from the beginning, almost always requires you to write unnecessary cfset applicationVar = translatedDBVar code to get everything in order before calling the tag. Honestly, I don't use CFINSERT or CFUPDATE for the same reason I don't use CFQUERY if I can avoid it. Using a stored proc is just the least ambiguous way to get data in and out of a CF web application in my experience. YMMV. - Jim Damien McKenna wrote: OK, I'll bite. Why would you *not* use standard CFML tags for the purpose they fullfill? ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2608 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: What makes a programmer look low level
Glenn Saunders wrote: But for most CF applications, that degree of optimization is overkill in comparison to the extra keystrokes it takes to do variables. I find this code: CFSET variables.a = 1 CFSET variables.b = 1 CFSET variables.c = 1 CFSET variables.d = 1 CFSET variables.e = 1 much harder to read than CFSET a = 1 CFSET b = 1 CFSET c = 1 CFSET d = 1 CFSET e = 1 I typically don't bother using variables. when I'm setting local variables, because I think it should be obvious that I'm setting a local variable. I'm not even sure if it's possible to set a FORM variable without scoping it first, so I don't think it's necessary. And, for what it's worth, the Fast Track to CFMX coursebook says to always scope variables, and even that book's examples never have cfset variables.myVar = whatever. It will always have something like: cfset myVar = whatever cfoutput#variables.myVar#/cfoutput So, I'm taking that as Macromedia's official recommendation that you don't need to scope setting local variables. :) Scott ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2609 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: What makes a programmer look low level
At 07:35 AM 5/12/2005, you wrote: OK, I'll bite. Why would you *not* use standard CFML tags for the purpose they fullfill? Well, for one thing, because CFINSERT and CFUPDATE don't call stored procs and we do almost all our db work via stored procs. With CFQUERY you can do CFQUERYPARAM to help protect your db inputs better, set VARCHAR length, set NULLs, etc... But the dealbreaker for CFINSERT is that it won't return back the new identity. ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2613 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: What makes a programmer look low level
CFQUERY will not return back a new identity either, well depending on the database chosen it will not without a second cfquery. Just curious, not implying anything wrong with it one bit, but what are your reasonings for using almost all SPs for your DB work? Also curious the reasons for that since different people seem to give completely different reasons for it. On 5/12/05, Glenn Saunders [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, for one thing, because CFINSERT and CFUPDATE don't call stored procs and we do almost all our db work via stored procs. With CFQUERY you can do CFQUERYPARAM to help protect your db inputs better, set VARCHAR length, set NULLs, etc... But the dealbreaker for CFINSERT is that it won't return back the new identity. ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2614 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: What makes a programmer look low level
At 09:12 AM 5/12/2005, you wrote:
At 09:00 AM 5/12/2005, you wrote:
CFQUERY will not return back a new identity either, well depending on the
database chosen it will not without a second cfquery.
This has sometimes worked in the past:
declare @new_id INT
insert into table (a, b)
values ('#a#', '#b#'
select @new_id as new_id
Sorry, skipped a step:
(note, this is SQL-2000 syntax)
declare @new_id INT
insert into table (a, b)
values ('#a#', '#b#')
set @new_id = Scope_Identity()
select @new_id as new_id
~|
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Re: What makes a programmer look low level
That syntax is not even valid for all databases. An example I am thinking of
is how to return the identity when using Oracle. I know the syntax to use if
just in a SQL client, tried it with a couple of versions of DB drivers with
CF and never had it work. Of course it could simple just be done with an SP,
which is what I do anyway.
CFLOCKing two queries together? Wouldn't that be CFTRANSACTIONing the two
queries together?
Wish we had DBAs that could review our SP's to see if things could be
improved. :(
On 5/12/05, Glenn Saunders [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
This has sometimes worked in the past:
declare @new_id INT
insert into table (a, b)
values ('#a#', '#b#'
select @new_id as new_id
It depends on the DB driver.
I've had this sometimes work and sometimes not work. It's almost like the
driver (or CF) says oh, this is an insert, you don't need any data back
and throws out the data.
Using a 2nd query to get the identity is not reliable without CFLOCKing
the
two queries together and it's not as efficient.
One thing I wish CFQUERY could do is return multiple recordsets and output
parameters back. In PHP you can do this.
Just curious, not
implying anything wrong with it one bit, but what are your reasonings for
using almost all SPs for your DB work?
Because it's faster in heavy-load environments and it provides a central
clearing house for db code that the dbas can (presumably) analyze and
improve. It also lets you restrict direct access to tables, just granting
EXEC permissions on a proc by proc basis after proper review.
~|
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Re: What makes a programmer look low level
At 09:18 AM 5/12/2005, you wrote: CFLOCKing two queries together? Wouldn't that be CFTRANSACTIONing the two queries together? Well, the examples given with the select max(id) are so ugly, don't even consider doing it, but since it's in at least one of the CF books a lot of developers got set down the wrong path. Wish we had DBAs that could review our SP's to see if things could be improved. :( They don't really do it at our company but that's the rhetoric, anyway. ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2618 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: What makes a programmer look low level
with oracle vernacular the word is sequence. Just perform a query to return
the next value in the sequence, then use it in your inserts.
SELECT seqname.next_val as newid FROM dual
INSERT INTO tablefoo (id, goo) VALUES (newid, 'soem stuff')
DK
On 5/12/05, Aaron Rouse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
That syntax is not even valid for all databases. An example I am thinking
of
is how to return the identity when using Oracle. I know the syntax to use
if
just in a SQL client, tried it with a couple of versions of DB drivers
with
CF and never had it work. Of course it could simple just be done with an
SP,
which is what I do anyway.
CFLOCKing two queries together? Wouldn't that be CFTRANSACTIONing the two
queries together?
Wish we had DBAs that could review our SP's to see if things could be
improved. :(
On 5/12/05, Glenn Saunders [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
This has sometimes worked in the past:
declare @new_id INT
insert into table (a, b)
values ('#a#', '#b#'
select @new_id as new_id
It depends on the DB driver.
I've had this sometimes work and sometimes not work. It's almost like
the
driver (or CF) says oh, this is an insert, you don't need any data
back
and throws out the data.
Using a 2nd query to get the identity is not reliable without CFLOCKing
the
two queries together and it's not as efficient.
One thing I wish CFQUERY could do is return multiple recordsets and
output
parameters back. In PHP you can do this.
Just curious, not
implying anything wrong with it one bit, but what are your reasonings
for
using almost all SPs for your DB work?
Because it's faster in heavy-load environments and it provides a central
clearing house for db code that the dbas can (presumably) analyze and
improve. It also lets you restrict direct access to tables, just
granting
EXEC permissions on a proc by proc basis after proper review.
~|
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application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a
client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account.
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RE: What makes a programmer look low level
Or the simplified version of the example
INSERT INTO tablefoo (id, goo) VALUES (seqname.next_val, 'soem stuff')
--
Ian Skinner
Web Programmer
BloodSource
www.BloodSource.org
Sacramento, CA
C code. C code run. Run code run. Please!
- Cynthia Dunning
-Original Message-
From: Douglas Knudsen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2005 10:00 AM
To: CF-Jobs-Talk
Subject: Re: What makes a programmer look low level
with oracle vernacular the word is sequence. Just perform a query to
return
the next value in the sequence, then use it in your inserts.
SELECT seqname.next_val as newid FROM dual
INSERT INTO tablefoo (id, goo) VALUES (newid, 'soem stuff')
DK
On 5/12/05, Aaron Rouse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
That syntax is not even valid for all databases. An example I am
thinking
of
is how to return the identity when using Oracle. I know the syntax to
use
if
just in a SQL client, tried it with a couple of versions of DB drivers
with
CF and never had it work. Of course it could simple just be done with
an
SP,
which is what I do anyway.
CFLOCKing two queries together? Wouldn't that be CFTRANSACTIONing the
two
queries together?
Wish we had DBAs that could review our SP's to see if things could be
improved. :(
On 5/12/05, Glenn Saunders [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
This has sometimes worked in the past:
declare @new_id INT
insert into table (a, b)
values ('#a#', '#b#'
select @new_id as new_id
It depends on the DB driver.
I've had this sometimes work and sometimes not work. It's almost like
the
driver (or CF) says oh, this is an insert, you don't need any data
back
and throws out the data.
Using a 2nd query to get the identity is not reliable without
CFLOCKing
the
two queries together and it's not as efficient.
One thing I wish CFQUERY could do is return multiple recordsets and
output
parameters back. In PHP you can do this.
Just curious, not
implying anything wrong with it one bit, but what are your
reasonings
for
using almost all SPs for your DB work?
Because it's faster in heavy-load environments and it provides a
central
clearing house for db code that the dbas can (presumably) analyze and
improve. It also lets you restrict direct access to tables, just
granting
EXEC permissions on a proc by proc basis after proper review.
~|
Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble
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Re: What makes a programmer look low level
It is SEQNAME.NEXTVAL in Oracle and I'd like to see how you get that to work in a single CFQUERY that returns NEWID to the CFM page. Using two CFQUERies would at least avoid the need to lock anything. On 5/12/05, Douglas Knudsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: with oracle vernacular the word is sequence. Just perform a query to return the next value in the sequence, then use it in your inserts. SELECT seqname.next_val as newid FROM dual INSERT INTO tablefoo (id, goo) VALUES (newid, 'soem stuff') DK ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2621 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: What makes a programmer look low level
Which still does not return the unique identifier(the value of SEQNAME.NEXTVAL) to the CFM page. The lack of returning a the unique identifier was one of the big hang ups given against CFINSERT. A simple trigger in the database and making sure form fields use the same names as columns would make it seem like for simple inserting CFINSERT is just fine and dandy. And no I do not use CFINSERT :) On 5/12/05, Ian Skinner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Or the simplified version of the example INSERT INTO tablefoo (id, goo) VALUES (seqname.next_val, 'soem stuff') -- Ian Skinner Web Programmer BloodSource www.BloodSource.org http://www.BloodSource.org Sacramento, CA C code. C code run. Run code run. Please! - Cynthia Dunning ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2622 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: What makes a programmer look low level
there is no need at all to lock anything. Once you get the nextval from the sequence, it is yours to keep. Another thread, request, user what have you will get a differnt value guarnteed. You will have to use two queries to return the value though, but again, no locking is needed. DK On 5/12/05, Aaron Rouse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It is SEQNAME.NEXTVAL in Oracle and I'd like to see how you get that to work in a single CFQUERY that returns NEWID to the CFM page. Using two CFQUERies would at least avoid the need to lock anything. On 5/12/05, Douglas Knudsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: with oracle vernacular the word is sequence. Just perform a query to return the next value in the sequence, then use it in your inserts. SELECT seqname.next_val as newid FROM dual INSERT INTO tablefoo (id, goo) VALUES (newid, 'soem stuff') DK ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2623 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: What makes a programmer look low level
Funny I was going to use DAO as an arguement for using Select * but didn't bother since I didn;t want to mix entry level using select * with using Select * with a DAO Design Pattern which if you are using DAO you're not entry level. I could just as Easily say though (just for arguements sake) that if you are using DAOs then you only have to change the Select list in 1 place, not wanting to change it in one place == lazy. I will still say though Selecting all comumn names is is better for any programer that might have to go into your code though Adam H On 5/12/05, S. Isaac Dealey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Though in a DAO situation there's little point in not selecting * since the DAO generally is just going to get all the columns for a specific record and drop them into the bean or other object properties. You can of course argue that explicitly declaring the columns is faster for the database (although you are using the primary key for selection), and using a code-generator can shift that load some, but I still prefer select * in a DAO because I also use dynamic accessor methods and that way I don't have to rewrite my DAO's when I add columns to the table. I tend to be very much of the right tool for the job mindset, so if there's a practical reason for using a * I have no problem with it. I guess we all have our admamant areas :) If I see a Select * I get fairly upset with the developer. In most caees you are bringing back unneeded data and in a large developement envirmoent another programer can not easily step into the code and see what is being selected from where. Adam H On 5/11/05, Glenn Saunders [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 01:14 PM 5/9/2005, you wrote: That reminds me of one...Select * in SQL statements...thats a really big PITA and a sign of a beginner or a lazy coder... I guess that would make me a lazy coder. s. isaac dealey 954.522.6080 new epoch : isn't it time for a change? add features without fixtures with the onTap open source framework http://www.fusiontap.com http://coldfusion.sys-con.com/author/4806Dealey.htm ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2625 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: What makes a programmer look low level
Except that's 2 places... 1 in the database and 1 in the code... 2... :) I wouldn't call that lazy -- you'd be _amazed_ how much time you can save (and productivity you can gain) by cutting out very small (microscopic) tasks which occur often. At least for me, I consider schema changes at least in early development frequent enough to warrant. Granted that once the early development is done and the schema is pretty solid you don't get much in the way of schema changes and it's easy enough to go back and replace the * with an explicit column list, I just don't see a need. But yes -- the design of a DAO is not a beginner's task. Funny I was going to use DAO as an arguement for using Select * but didn't bother since I didn;t want to mix entry level using select * with using Select * with a DAO Design Pattern which if you are using DAO you're not entry level. I could just as Easily say though (just for arguements sake) that if you are using DAOs then you only have to change the Select list in 1 place, not wanting to change it in one place == lazy. I will still say though Selecting all comumn names is is better for any programer that might have to go into your code though Adam H On 5/12/05, S. Isaac Dealey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Though in a DAO situation there's little point in not selecting * since the DAO generally is just going to get all the columns for a specific record and drop them into the bean or other object properties. You can of course argue that explicitly declaring the columns is faster for the database (although you are using the primary key for selection), and using a code-generator can shift that load some, but I still prefer select * in a DAO because I also use dynamic accessor methods and that way I don't have to rewrite my DAO's when I add columns to the table. I tend to be very much of the right tool for the job mindset, so if there's a practical reason for using a * I have no problem with it. I guess we all have our admamant areas :) If I see a Select * I get fairly upset with the developer. In most caees you are bringing back unneeded data and in a large developement envirmoent another programer can not easily step into the code and see what is being selected from where. Adam H On 5/11/05, Glenn Saunders [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 01:14 PM 5/9/2005, you wrote: That reminds me of one...Select * in SQL statements...thats a really big PITA and a sign of a beginner or a lazy coder... I guess that would make me a lazy coder. s. isaac dealey 954.522.6080 new epoch : isn't it time for a change? add features without fixtures with the onTap open source framework http://www.fusiontap.com http://coldfusion.sys-con.com/author/4806Dealey.htm ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2626 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: What makes a programmer look low level
At 10:33 AM 5/9/2005, you wrote:
I have met some developers that are very talented (I'd
consider them Senior level developers based on skill alone) who happen
to have poor syntax/code style habits.
Did you explain to them the right way to do it? If so, did they
change? If they didn't, that shows they are stubborn and it's not a good
sign, IMHO.
In a collaborative environment, the code one developer writes needs to be
editable by someone else. The code should not deviate into different zones
with wildly different coding styles. Everyone needs to agree on a lowest
common denominator.
For instance, in my current PHP work we all had to agree to the PEAR
standard. Part of that means writing braces like this:
function a {
}
if (a) {
if (b) {
}
else {
}
}
I happen to dislike this as I find it more readable to align the opening
and closing braces to the same horizontal location. This is especially
useful in visualizing indentation. However, I was outvoted so I adapted
for the sake of having a consistent style across the entire codebase.
~|
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Re: What makes a programmer look low level
At 10:47 AM 5/9/2005, you wrote: I can see places where this is needed If the join is across servers, sure. If the join was expensive enough and you were doing a paged view then you could run one query per page with a valuelist of the foreign keys rather than doing a round trip to the db on every row. I've done this plenty of times, to pull back a list of just the IDs for the entire recordset and then select out a page of IDs (startrow/maxrow in CF) and then go back and retrieve all the rest of the columns. Better than pulling the entire recordset on every page. However, we've found a way to do this paging completely at the SQL level using table variables. 3. Queries inside of a cfloop or cfoutput (with the query attribute of course) and could have easily been avoided with a simple join in their original query. ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2594 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: What makes a programmer look low level
At 01:10 PM 5/9/2005, you wrote: Like I said I knew people would disagree, and I understand that which is why I scope everything b/c I dislike being a black sheep :) But I'll ask why are people so adamant about it? Because CF has to interrogate memory on unscoped variables based on a predefined order of precedence and this takes a little more time than prescoping the variables. I don't know offhand whether it shuffles the order of priority based on context (i.e. inside a CFLOOP or CFOUTPUT). You'd think it would be a good idea if it did. But for most CF applications, that degree of optimization is overkill in comparison to the extra keystrokes it takes to do variables. I find this code: CFSET variables.a = 1 CFSET variables.b = 1 CFSET variables.c = 1 CFSET variables.d = 1 CFSET variables.e = 1 much harder to read than CFSET a = 1 CFSET b = 1 CFSET c = 1 CFSET d = 1 CFSET e = 1 You read left to right so you mentally have to filter out the variables. noise words everywhere in order to differentiate the real variable names. So that's why I don't follow that guideline 100%. ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2599 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: What makes a programmer look low level
At 01:11 PM 5/9/2005, you wrote: along with -- up until now -- cfform. What do you have against CFFORM? ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2600 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: What makes a programmer look low level
At 01:52 PM 5/9/2005, you wrote: Is it just me, or do the comments other developers leave throughout their code mostly get in the way of just reading the raw code? Having read through all kinds of existing code, I much prefer to have everything scoped and the code arranged in a consistent, logical format for readability. I'd rather I don't find comments distracting at all. I find the default color coding for comments in gray makes them too hard to read. I color code comments in block yellow which makes it very readable. Also remember that with Java code blocks are EVERYWHERE because of how Javadoc works, and C# code has its own flavor of auto documenting so it's something most developers have to get used to seeing lots of comments. ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2602 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: What makes a programmer look low level
I agree, that CFSET variables.a = 1 CFSET variables.b = 1 is complete overkill, it is much more readible to use commenting: cfscript // some variables with dodgy names a = 1; b = 2; /cfscript Where I work we don't use cfform at all as it messes with our javascript validation functions. As for cfinsert and the like, I have never used these as normal sql seems so much easier, anyway security and performance wise its much better to use stored procedures or functions (if you happen to be using postgresql). - Original Message - From: Glenn Saunders [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Jobs-Talk cf-jobs-talk@houseoffusion.com Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2005 11:02 AM Subject: Re: What makes a programmer look low level At 01:10 PM 5/9/2005, you wrote: Like I said I knew people would disagree, and I understand that which is why I scope everything b/c I dislike being a black sheep :) But I'll ask why are people so adamant about it? Because CF has to interrogate memory on unscoped variables based on a predefined order of precedence and this takes a little more time than prescoping the variables. I don't know offhand whether it shuffles the order of priority based on context (i.e. inside a CFLOOP or CFOUTPUT). You'd think it would be a good idea if it did. But for most CF applications, that degree of optimization is overkill in comparison to the extra keystrokes it takes to do variables. I find this code: CFSET variables.a = 1 CFSET variables.b = 1 CFSET variables.c = 1 CFSET variables.d = 1 CFSET variables.e = 1 much harder to read than CFSET a = 1 CFSET b = 1 CFSET c = 1 CFSET d = 1 CFSET e = 1 You read left to right so you mentally have to filter out the variables. noise words everywhere in order to differentiate the real variable names. So that's why I don't follow that guideline 100%. ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2603 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: What makes a programmer look low level
At 10:39 PM 5/9/2005, you wrote: Not all documentation is good; in fact, most is bad (in my experience.) In my experience, most is non-existent. But, I've never had a problem with documentation that is there. And I still have a hard time imagining a time where comments make it hard to follow the logic of code, no matter how poorly written the documentation is. -- Jeffry Houser, Web Developer, Writer, Songwriter, Recording Engineer AIM: Reboog711 | Phone: 1-203-379-0773 -- My Company: http://www.dot-com-it.com My Books: http://www.instantcoldfusion.com My Recording Studio: http://www.fcfstudios.com Connecticut Macromedia User Group: http://www.ctmug.com ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2587 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: SPAM-LOW: RE: What makes a programmer look low level
poorly formatted code + no documentation or comments = bad; poorly formatted code + bad documentation or comments = bad; [poorly formatted code + good documentation or comments= bad;]* [well formatted code+ no documentation or comments = GOOD;]* well formatted code + bad documentation or comments = bad; well formatted code + good documentation or comments= good; where well formatted code = minority; poorly formatted code = majority; no OR bad documentation or comments = majority; *[good documentation or comments= yeah right;] -Original Message- From: Jeffry Houser [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 7:42 AM To: CF-Jobs-Talk Subject: SPAM-LOW: RE: What makes a programmer look low level At 10:39 PM 5/9/2005, you wrote: Not all documentation is good; in fact, most is bad (in my experience.) In my experience, most is non-existent. But, I've never had a problem with documentation that is there. And I still have a hard time imagining a time where comments make it hard to follow the logic of code, no matter how poorly written the documentation is. -- Jeffry Houser, Web Developer, Writer, Songwriter, Recording Engineer AIM: Reboog711 | Phone: 1-203-379-0773 -- My Company: http://www.dot-com-it.com My Books: http://www.instantcoldfusion.com My Recording Studio: http://www.fcfstudios.com Connecticut Macromedia User Group: http://www.ctmug.com ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2588 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: What makes a programmer look low level
poorly formatted code + no documentation or comments= bad; poorly formatted code + bad documentation or comments = bad; [poorly formatted code + good documentation or comments = bad;]* [well formatted code+ no documentation or comments= GOOD;]* well formatted code + bad documentation or comments = bad; well formatted code + good documentation or comments = good; where well formatted code = minority; poorly formatted code= majority; no OR bad documentation or comments = majority; *[good documentation or comments = yeah right;] -Original Message- From: Jeffry Houser [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 7:42 AM To: CF-Jobs-Talk Subject: RE: What makes a programmer look low level At 10:39 PM 5/9/2005, you wrote: Not all documentation is good; in fact, most is bad (in my experience.) In my experience, most is non-existent. But, I've never had a problem with documentation that is there. And I still have a hard time imagining a time where comments make it hard to follow the logic of code, no matter how poorly written the documentation is. -- Jeffry Houser, Web Developer, Writer, Songwriter, Recording Engineer AIM: Reboog711 | Phone: 1-203-379-0773 -- My Company: http://www.dot-com-it.com My Books: http://www.instantcoldfusion.com My Recording Studio: http://www.fcfstudios.com Connecticut Macromedia User Group: http://www.ctmug.com ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2589 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: What makes a programmer look low level
I'm pretty conscientious about documenting my open-source work. Probably moreso than most folks... But then my documentation is also all web-ready and a test-case for the framework. The majority of it does end up being language-reference (documentation for individual tags, functions and CFC's) but there are both beginner and advanced tutorials in the core docs and I provide an overview doc with plugins. (Granted, there's only one publicly available plugin currently.) But I produce such a large volume of code that it would be impossible for my documentation to be flawless. poorly formatted code + no documentation or comments= bad; poorly formatted code + bad documentation or comments = bad; [poorly formatted code + good documentation or comments = bad;]* [well formatted code+ no documentation or comments= GOOD;]* well formatted code + bad documentation or comments = bad; well formatted code + good documentation or comments = good; where well formatted code = minority; poorly formatted code = majority; no OR bad documentation or comments = majority; *[good documentation or comments = yeah right;] -Original Message- From: Jeffry Houser [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 7:42 AM To: CF-Jobs-Talk Subject: SPAM-LOW: RE: What makes a programmer look low level At 10:39 PM 5/9/2005, you wrote: Not all documentation is good; in fact, most is bad (in my experience.) In my experience, most is non-existent. But, I've never had a problem with documentation that is there. And I still have a hard time imagining a time where comments make it hard to follow the logic of code, no matter how poorly written the documentation is. s. isaac dealey 954.522.6080 new epoch : isn't it time for a change? add features without fixtures with the onTap open source framework http://www.fusiontap.com http://coldfusion.sys-con.com/author/4806Dealey.htm ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2590 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: What makes a programmer look low level
If someone can write CFCs, custom tags and UDFs, I automatically upgrade him/her to mid-level. For me this would be a sign that the person is a mid-level developer. Johnny Breaking encapsulation In CFCs (or custom tags or UDFs) by referencing shared scope variable (application, session, request, etc.. ). ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2591 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: What makes a programmer look low level
Anyone can write udfs and custom tags it takes very little skill. Writting well crafted ones might make you mid-level. Custom tags with something like checking the execution mode missing definetly would make you look low level...Likewise making a UDF isn't that complex but not varing all your variables makes you look low level. Adam H On 5/10/05, Johnny Le [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If someone can write CFCs, custom tags and UDFs, I automatically upgrade him/her to mid-level. For me this would be a sign that the person is a mid-level developer. Johnny Breaking encapsulation In CFCs (or custom tags or UDFs) by referencing shared scope variable (application, session, request, etc.. ). ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2592 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: What makes a programmer look low level
At 01:25 PM 5/9/2005, you wrote: How about we look at what makes a programmer look low level and work our way up. Two things that come right to mind are: 1. Improper use of pound signs in evaluation zones 2. Improper usage of IF clauses (not using short circuited Boolean evaluation) A few things that bug me: Non-descriptive variable names. X is a lot less descriptive than CurrentAuthor or AuthorIndex for example. Not scoping variables. Both, in regular templates (Is this a form variable, a URL variable, a local variable, etc.. ) and in Functions / CFCs (where improper scoping is more likely to have adverse side affects). Breaking encapsulation In CFCs (or custom tags or UDFs) by referencing shared scope variable (application, session, request, etc.. ). In databases, not defining relationships or keys. This one really bugs me. No documentation. One thing that looks amateur (but may not be) is code formatting. I think indenting code blocks makes them easier to read. -- Jeffry Houser, Web Developer, Writer, Songwriter, Recording Engineer AIM: Reboog711 | Phone: 1-203-379-0773 -- My Company: http://www.dot-com-it.com My Books: http://www.instantcoldfusion.com My Recording Studio: http://www.fcfstudios.com Connecticut Macromedia User Group: http://www.ctmug.com ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2535 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: What makes a programmer look low level
This could be purposely done and part of someones style. I always do the
cfif IsDefined() AND ... method but have seen the other route taken from
rather knowledgable people. At what point do you decide it would be easier
to follow some nested if's over one single long if statement. I can not
really think of an example where a long if or a bunch of nested if's is
needed. I have seen code before that had a TON of them though and had to go
in there to debug a problem on it.
On 5/9/05, Michael Dinowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I'm refering to
CFIF...
CFIF
statement
/CFIF
/CFIF
Where the 2 CFIF clauses can be combined. This was seen in the
CFIF IsDefined('var')
CFIF var is X
type statements. CF 4.01 added the ability to combine them properly where
if
the first clause of an AND statement failed, the second never happened
(for
example)
~|
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Re: What makes a programmer look low level
Not scoping variables. Both, in regular templates (Is this a form variable, a URL variable, a local variable, etc.. ) and in Functions / CFCs (where improper scoping is more likely to have adverse side affects). I think scoping variables makes code easier to read but to me scoping every single vaible tells me you either 1) don;t trust your code or 2) don't understand how scope is working in your current situation which would imply a lower level of skill. I know most poeple will ague always scope your variables but i am just throwing this out there :) My addition: not VARing your variavles in functions! Adam H On 5/9/05, Jeffry Houser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 01:25 PM 5/9/2005, you wrote: How about we look at what makes a programmer look low level and work our way up. Two things that come right to mind are: 1. Improper use of pound signs in evaluation zones 2. Improper usage of IF clauses (not using short circuited Boolean evaluation) A few things that bug me: Non-descriptive variable names. X is a lot less descriptive than CurrentAuthor or AuthorIndex for example. Not scoping variables. Both, in regular templates (Is this a form variable, a URL variable, a local variable, etc.. ) and in Functions / CFCs (where improper scoping is more likely to have adverse side affects). Breaking encapsulation In CFCs (or custom tags or UDFs) by referencing shared scope variable (application, session, request, etc.. ). In databases, not defining relationships or keys. This one really bugs me. No documentation. One thing that looks amateur (but may not be) is code formatting. I think indenting code blocks makes them easier to read. -- Jeffry Houser, Web Developer, Writer, Songwriter, Recording Engineer AIM: Reboog711 | Phone: 1-203-379-0773 -- My Company: http://www.dot-com-it.com My Books: http://www.instantcoldfusion.com My Recording Studio: http://www.fcfstudios.com Connecticut Macromedia User Group: http://www.ctmug.com ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2538 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: What makes a programmer look low level
At 01:25 PM 5/9/2005, you wrote: How about we look at what makes a programmer look low level and work our way up. Two things that come right to mind are: 1. Improper use of pound signs in evaluation zones 2. Improper usage of IF clauses (not using short circuited Boolean evaluation) A few things that bug me: Non-descriptive variable names. X is a lot less descriptive than CurrentAuthor or AuthorIndex for example. Can I use X as a loop index? I do that a lot. :) Breaking encapsulation In CFCs (or custom tags or UDFs) by referencing shared scope variable (application, session, request, etc.. ). Does that include when the shared scope variables are part of a wholistic framework used to develop the application? If I have a well-structured set of function libraries in the request scope is it bad form for one function in these libraries to reference another function in these libraries from the request scope? In databases, not defining relationships or keys. This one really bugs me. You're talking about lack of constraints. That's one of my pet peeves too... it's bugged me at just about every place I've worked to date. :-/ s. isaac dealey 954.522.6080 new epoch : isn't it time for a change? add features without fixtures with the onTap open source framework http://www.fusiontap.com http://coldfusion.sys-con.com/author/4806Dealey.htm ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2542 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: What makes a programmer look low level
At 03:13 PM 5/9/2005, you wrote: At 01:25 PM 5/9/2005, you wrote: How about we look at what makes a programmer look low level and work our way up. Two things that come right to mind are: 1. Improper use of pound signs in evaluation zones 2. Improper usage of IF clauses (not using short circuited Boolean evaluation) A few things that bug me: Non-descriptive variable names. X is a lot less descriptive than CurrentAuthor or AuthorIndex for example. Can I use X as a loop index? I do that a lot. :) Sometimes it makes debugging harder to do down the line. But, it is fairly common. I prefer to use more descriptive names if at all possible. Breaking encapsulation In CFCs (or custom tags or UDFs) by referencing shared scope variable (application, session, request, etc.. ). Does that include when the shared scope variables are part of a wholistic framework used to develop the application? If I have a well-structured set of function libraries in the request scope is it bad form for one function in these libraries to reference another function in these libraries from the request scope? I'll call this a gray area. To properly encapsulate, this would be wrong. However, within the context of an application and the framework it's probably okay. -- Jeffry Houser, Web Developer, Writer, Songwriter, Recording Engineer AIM: Reboog711 | Phone: 1-203-379-0773 -- My Company: http://www.dot-com-it.com My Books: http://www.instantcoldfusion.com My Recording Studio: http://www.fcfstudios.com Connecticut Macromedia User Group: http://www.ctmug.com ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2545 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: What makes a programmer look low level
How would you spot these in a code sample? :P cfif parameterExists... - Jim S. Isaac Dealey wrote: How would you spot these in a code sample? :P 1. An unwillingness to learn 2. Believing that they have no room for improvement 3. Blindly following the advice of some so-called Credible Person - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Michael Dinowitz) Date: Monday, May 9, 2005 11:25 am Subject: What makes a programmer look low level How about we look at what makes a programmer look low level and work our way up. Two things that come right to mind are: 1. Improper use of pound signs in evaluation zones 2. Improper usage of IF clauses (not using short circuited Boolean evaluation) s. isaac dealey 954.522.6080 new epoch : isn't it time for a change? add features without fixtures with the onTap open source framework http://www.fusiontap.com http://coldfusion.sys-con.com/author/4806Dealey.htm ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2547 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: What makes a programmer look low level
it's worth noting that none of these are easy to determine in an interview. Some people are great developers who have poor interview skills, which makes it entirely possible to mistake these qualities (or lack thereof). ~Simon Simon Horwith CIO, AboutWeb - http://www.aboutweb.com Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal Member of Team Macromedia Macromedia Certified Master Instructor Blog - http://www.horwith.com Kwang Suh wrote: 1. An unwillingness to learn 2. Believing that they have no room for improvement 3. Blindly following the advice of some so-called Credible Person - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Michael Dinowitz) Date: Monday, May 9, 2005 11:25 am Subject: What makes a programmer look low level How about we look at what makes a programmer look low level and work our way up. Two things that come right to mind are: 1. Improper use of pound signs in evaluation zones 2. Improper usage of IF clauses (not using short circuited Boolean evaluation) ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2548 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: What makes a programmer look low level
I've got to disagree - I prefix every variable I reference and can only fault those who don't. I think the reasons for this have already been discussed. ~Simon Simon Horwith CIO, AboutWeb - http://www.aboutweb.com Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal Member of Team Macromedia Macromedia Certified Master Instructor Blog - http://www.horwith.com Adam Haskell wrote: Not scoping variables. Both, in regular templates (Is this a form variable, a URL variable, a local variable, etc.. ) and in Functions / CFCs (where improper scoping is more likely to have adverse side affects). I think scoping variables makes code easier to read but to me scoping every single vaible tells me you either 1) don;t trust your code or 2) don't understand how scope is working in your current situation which would imply a lower level of skill. I know most poeple will ague always scope your variables but i am just throwing this out there :) My addition: not VARing your variavles in functions! Adam H On 5/9/05, Jeffry Houser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 01:25 PM 5/9/2005, you wrote: How about we look at what makes a programmer look low level and work our way up. Two things that come right to mind are: 1. Improper use of pound signs in evaluation zones 2. Improper usage of IF clauses (not using short circuited Boolean evaluation) A few things that bug me: Non-descriptive variable names. X is a lot less descriptive than CurrentAuthor or AuthorIndex for example. Not scoping variables. Both, in regular templates (Is this a form variable, a URL variable, a local variable, etc.. ) and in Functions / CFCs (where improper scoping is more likely to have adverse side affects). Breaking encapsulation In CFCs (or custom tags or UDFs) by referencing shared scope variable (application, session, request, etc.. ). In databases, not defining relationships or keys. This one really bugs me. No documentation. One thing that looks amateur (but may not be) is code formatting. I think indenting code blocks makes them easier to read. -- Jeffry Houser, Web Developer, Writer, Songwriter, Recording Engineer AIM: Reboog711 | Phone: 1-203-379-0773 -- My Company: http://www.dot-com-it.com My Books: http://www.instantcoldfusion.com My Recording Studio: http://www.fcfstudios.com Connecticut Macromedia User Group: http://www.ctmug.com ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2549 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: What makes a programmer look low level
Nice! :) That one actually got a literal laugh out loud on this end. :) How would you spot these in a code sample? :P cfif parameterExists... - Jim S. Isaac Dealey wrote: How would you spot these in a code sample? :P 1. An unwillingness to learn 2. Believing that they have no room for improvement 3. Blindly following the advice of some so-called Credible Person - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Michael Dinowitz) Date: Monday, May 9, 2005 11:25 am Subject: What makes a programmer look low level How about we look at what makes a programmer look low level and work our way up. Two things that come right to mind are: 1. Improper use of pound signs in evaluation zones 2. Improper usage of IF clauses (not using short circuited Boolean evaluation) s. isaac dealey 954.522.6080 new epoch : isn't it time for a change? add features without fixtures with the onTap open source framework http://www.fusiontap.com http://coldfusion.sys-con.com/author/4806Dealey.htm ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2551 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: What makes a programmer look low level
So me scoping myQuery.varname is essential in a cfoutput query=myQuery block? I disagree but I know people think differently... I do agree with the url. or form. or cookie . though in many cases it could be coming from different places so scoping those are good. If you understand your current context you should not have to scope...unless you are worried about understandability Adam H On 5/9/05, Simon Horwith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've got to disagree - I prefix every variable I reference and can only fault those who don't. I think the reasons for this have already been discussed. ~Simon Simon Horwith CIO, AboutWeb - http://www.aboutweb.com Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal Member of Team Macromedia Macromedia Certified Master Instructor Blog - http://www.horwith.com Adam Haskell wrote: Not scoping variables. Both, in regular templates (Is this a form variable, a URL variable, a local variable, etc.. ) and in Functions / CFCs (where improper scoping is more likely to have adverse side affects). I think scoping variables makes code easier to read but to me scoping every single vaible tells me you either 1) don;t trust your code or 2) don't understand how scope is working in your current situation which would imply a lower level of skill. I know most poeple will ague always scope your variables but i am just throwing this out there :) My addition: not VARing your variavles in functions! Adam H On 5/9/05, Jeffry Houser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 01:25 PM 5/9/2005, you wrote: How about we look at what makes a programmer look low level and work our way up. Two things that come right to mind are: 1. Improper use of pound signs in evaluation zones 2. Improper usage of IF clauses (not using short circuited Boolean evaluation) A few things that bug me: Non-descriptive variable names. X is a lot less descriptive than CurrentAuthor or AuthorIndex for example. Not scoping variables. Both, in regular templates (Is this a form variable, a URL variable, a local variable, etc.. ) and in Functions / CFCs (where improper scoping is more likely to have adverse side affects). Breaking encapsulation In CFCs (or custom tags or UDFs) by referencing shared scope variable (application, session, request, etc.. ). In databases, not defining relationships or keys. This one really bugs me. No documentation. One thing that looks amateur (but may not be) is code formatting. I think indenting code blocks makes them easier to read. -- Jeffry Houser, Web Developer, Writer, Songwriter, Recording Engineer AIM: Reboog711 | Phone: 1-203-379-0773 -- My Company: http://www.dot-com-it.com My Books: http://www.instantcoldfusion.com My Recording Studio: http://www.fcfstudios.com Connecticut Macromedia User Group: http://www.ctmug.com ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2552 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: What makes a programmer look low level
What makes a programmer look low level is: 1. Not predefining variable for later use at start of code file or in a universal inclusion. Really, I think people should be held accountable to write out in documentation every variable used along with every set of data whether originating in a database or the result of munging something in the application. We show data schemas - so why not variable schemas. 2. No code comments If you don't comment lots then you will confuse even yourself in the future. Commenting helps everyone understand what is going on. A lot of people don't comment believing it leads to dependence upon them (aka job security). 3. No explainable workflow Like the code comments - lots of people write code just to confuse someone else later having to re-work their disaster piece. Applies to job security. There are also times when people blow out lots of code in chunks and fuse things together and for whatever reason they don't go back and clean things up - whether it's a timeline issue or just that the person hopes to never touch it again. -Paris Lundis Sent via the WebMail system at areaindex.com ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2553 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: What makes a programmer look low level
not only do I adamantly believe that inside of a CFOUTPUT query= loop should you prefix the column names with the query name, but I also scope the variable (cfoutput query=variables.qMyQuery.). ~Simon Simon Horwith CIO, AboutWeb - http://www.aboutweb.com Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal Member of Team Macromedia Macromedia Certified Master Instructor Blog - http://www.horwith.com Adam Haskell wrote: So me scoping myQuery.varname is essential in a cfoutput query=myQuery block? I disagree but I know people think differently... I do agree with the url. or form. or cookie . though in many cases it could be coming from different places so scoping those are good. If you understand your current context you should not have to scope...unless you are worried about understandability Adam H On 5/9/05, Simon Horwith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've got to disagree - I prefix every variable I reference and can only fault those who don't. I think the reasons for this have already been discussed. ~Simon Simon Horwith CIO, AboutWeb - http://www.aboutweb.com Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal Member of Team Macromedia Macromedia Certified Master Instructor Blog - http://www.horwith.com Adam Haskell wrote: Not scoping variables. Both, in regular templates (Is this a form variable, a URL variable, a local variable, etc.. ) and in Functions / CFCs (where improper scoping is more likely to have adverse side affects). I think scoping variables makes code easier to read but to me scoping every single vaible tells me you either 1) don;t trust your code or 2) don't understand how scope is working in your current situation which would imply a lower level of skill. I know most poeple will ague always scope your variables but i am just throwing this out there :) My addition: not VARing your variavles in functions! Adam H On 5/9/05, Jeffry Houser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 01:25 PM 5/9/2005, you wrote: How about we look at what makes a programmer look low level and work our way up. Two things that come right to mind are: 1. Improper use of pound signs in evaluation zones 2. Improper usage of IF clauses (not using short circuited Boolean evaluation) A few things that bug me: Non-descriptive variable names. X is a lot less descriptive than CurrentAuthor or AuthorIndex for example. Not scoping variables. Both, in regular templates (Is this a form variable, a URL variable, a local variable, etc.. ) and in Functions / CFCs (where improper scoping is more likely to have adverse side affects). Breaking encapsulation In CFCs (or custom tags or UDFs) by referencing shared scope variable (application, session, request, etc.. ). In databases, not defining relationships or keys. This one really bugs me. No documentation. One thing that looks amateur (but may not be) is code formatting. I think indenting code blocks makes them easier to read. -- Jeffry Houser, Web Developer, Writer, Songwriter, Recording Engineer AIM: Reboog711 | Phone: 1-203-379-0773 -- My Company: http://www.dot-com-it.com My Books: http://www.instantcoldfusion.com My Recording Studio: http://www.fcfstudios.com Connecticut Macromedia User Group: http://www.ctmug.com ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2554 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: What makes a programmer look low level
Easy. You find some code they wrote three years ago. Then you find some code they wrote recently. Use brain to determine how much they've learned. - Original Message - From: S. Isaac Dealey [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Monday, May 9, 2005 1:32 pm Subject: Re: What makes a programmer look low level How would you spot these in a code sample? :P 1. An unwillingness to learn 2. Believing that they have no room for improvement 3. Blindly following the advice of some so-called Credible Person - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Michael Dinowitz) Date: Monday, May 9, 2005 11:25 am Subject: What makes a programmer look low level How about we look at what makes a programmer look low level and work our way up. Two things that come right to mind are: 1. Improper use of pound signs in evaluation zones 2. Improper usage of IF clauses (not using short circuited Boolean evaluation) s. isaac dealey 954.522.6080 new epoch : isn't it time for a change? add features without fixtures with the onTap open source framework http://www.fusiontap.com http://coldfusion.sys-con.com/author/4806Dealey.htm ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2555 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: What makes a programmer look low level
I tend to scope these, it is not out of worry of me not knowing what I am referencing or even of someone else coming in and not knowing. I think it is more of just out of habbit and it just gets typed. I do know at one time I came across a prior developers work who would be in a cfoutput query=myquery and they would start referencing things out of other scopes but they never did prefix any variables. It added some time to debuging a problem when their query was just SELECT * FROM MYTABLE. A lot of the things I do in regards to scoping are usually direct results of having to debug someone elses code where no scoping was done at all. This made me over time realize I am probably better off typing things out more times than not, just so it avoids confusion when never knowing the skill level or mindset of whoever it is coming in after me. On 5/9/05, Adam Haskell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So me scoping myQuery.varname is essential in a cfoutput query=myQuery block? I disagree but I know people think differently... I do agree with the url. or form. or cookie . though in many cases it could be coming from different places so scoping those are good. If you understand your current context you should not have to scope...unless you are worried about understandability Adam H ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2556 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: What makes a programmer look low level
What makes a programmer look low level is: 1. Not predefining variable for later use at start of code file or in a universal inclusion. Really, I think people should be held accountable to write out in documentation every variable used along with every set of data whether originating in a database or the result of munging something in the application. We show data schemas - so why not variable schemas. The onTap framework actually has a page in the documentation that's designed specifically to allow extensible documentation of all variables used by the framework. I haven't updated the public site recently unfortunately -- I've been busy working on other things and now I have to update the forum before I can really do that. But -- although in retrospect it's not as nicely done as it could have been, it does provide a thumbnail explanation of every variable exposed by the framework, plus plugins can add variables to the list. Some of them even have links to further documentation regarding the section where the variable is used. 2. No code comments If you don't comment lots then you will confuse even yourself in the future. Commenting helps everyone understand what is going on. A lot of people don't comment believing it leads to dependence upon them (aka job security). Yea, that doesn't work. :) 3. No explainable workflow Like the code comments - lots of people write code just to confuse someone else later having to re-work their disaster piece. Applies to job security. There are also times when people blow out lots of code in chunks and fuse things together and for whatever reason they don't go back and clean things up - whether it's a timeline issue or just that the person hopes to never touch it again. Some of the low level stuff in the onTap framework could probably be described that way... I'm thinking in particular about the tags that manage SQL syntax for multiple db platforms. They work, but they're not as clean as a lot of other areas of the framework. s. isaac dealey 954.522.6080 new epoch : isn't it time for a change? add features without fixtures with the onTap open source framework http://www.fusiontap.com http://coldfusion.sys-con.com/author/4806Dealey.htm ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2559 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: What makes a programmer look low level
Code encapsulation is CS101 concept. If someone is not understanding encapsulation, then they are a novice programmer. Whether they are a novice CF Developer or not may be open to interpretation, since many CF Developers are not programmers by trade. At 03:50 PM 5/9/2005, you wrote: I wouldn't say that not scoping variables in CFCs or breaking encapsulation by scoping variables in CFCs are traits of beginer developers. The fact that a developer is using CFCs at all (unless they're using them for all the wrong reasons) is a sign that they're not a novice CF Developer. You know, I've heard various Macromedia personel state that somewhere in the neighborhood of 80% of CFMX applications aren't using CFCs at all. Of course, someone who's not scoping variables properly in their CFCs obviously has some improvements to make, but the fact that they're using them indicates that they're already started down the right path. ~Simon Simon Horwith CIO, AboutWeb - http://www.aboutweb.com Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal Member of Team Macromedia Macromedia Certified Master Instructor Blog - http://www.horwith.com Jeffry Houser wrote: At 01:25 PM 5/9/2005, you wrote: How about we look at what makes a programmer look low level and work our way up. Two things that come right to mind are: 1. Improper use of pound signs in evaluation zones 2. Improper usage of IF clauses (not using short circuited Boolean evaluation) A few things that bug me: Non-descriptive variable names. X is a lot less descriptive than CurrentAuthor or AuthorIndex for example. Not scoping variables. Both, in regular templates (Is this a form variable, a URL variable, a local variable, etc.. ) and in Functions / CFCs (where improper scoping is more likely to have adverse side affects). Breaking encapsulation In CFCs (or custom tags or UDFs) by referencing shared scope variable (application, session, request, etc.. ). In databases, not defining relationships or keys. This one really bugs me. No documentation. One thing that looks amateur (but may not be) is code formatting. I think indenting code blocks makes them easier to read. -- Jeffry Houser, Web Developer, Writer, Songwriter, Recording Engineer AIM: Reboog711 | Phone: 1-203-379-0773 -- My Company: http://www.dot-com-it.com My Books: http://www.instantcoldfusion.com My Recording Studio: http://www.fcfstudios.com Connecticut Macromedia User Group: http://www.ctmug.com ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2560 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: What makes a programmer look low level
-Original Message- From: Simon Horwith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] I'd love to know how ou find code that an applicant wrote 3 years ago. Contributions to OSS? -- Damien McKenna - Web Developer - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014 #include stdjoke.h ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2561 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: What makes a programmer look low level
Like I said I knew people would disagree, and I understand that which is why I scope everything b/c I dislike being a black sheep :) But I'll ask why are people so adamant about it? Adam H On 5/9/05, Simon Horwith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: not only do I adamantly believe that inside of a CFOUTPUT query= loop should you prefix the column names with the query name, but I also scope the variable (cfoutput query=variables.qMyQuery.). ~Simon Simon Horwith CIO, AboutWeb - http://www.aboutweb.com Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal Member of Team Macromedia Macromedia Certified Master Instructor Blog - http://www.horwith.com Adam Haskell wrote: So me scoping myQuery.varname is essential in a cfoutput query=myQuery block? I disagree but I know people think differently... I do agree with the url. or form. or cookie . though in many cases it could be coming from different places so scoping those are good. If you understand your current context you should not have to scope...unless you are worried about understandability Adam H On 5/9/05, Simon Horwith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've got to disagree - I prefix every variable I reference and can only fault those who don't. I think the reasons for this have already been discussed. ~Simon Simon Horwith CIO, AboutWeb - http://www.aboutweb.com Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal Member of Team Macromedia Macromedia Certified Master Instructor Blog - http://www.horwith.com Adam Haskell wrote: Not scoping variables. Both, in regular templates (Is this a form variable, a URL variable, a local variable, etc.. ) and in Functions / CFCs (where improper scoping is more likely to have adverse side affects). I think scoping variables makes code easier to read but to me scoping every single vaible tells me you either 1) don;t trust your code or 2) don't understand how scope is working in your current situation which would imply a lower level of skill. I know most poeple will ague always scope your variables but i am just throwing this out there :) My addition: not VARing your variavles in functions! Adam H On 5/9/05, Jeffry Houser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 01:25 PM 5/9/2005, you wrote: How about we look at what makes a programmer look low level and work our way up. Two things that come right to mind are: 1. Improper use of pound signs in evaluation zones 2. Improper usage of IF clauses (not using short circuited Boolean evaluation) A few things that bug me: Non-descriptive variable names. X is a lot less descriptive than CurrentAuthor or AuthorIndex for example. Not scoping variables. Both, in regular templates (Is this a form variable, a URL variable, a local variable, etc.. ) and in Functions / CFCs (where improper scoping is more likely to have adverse side affects). Breaking encapsulation In CFCs (or custom tags or UDFs) by referencing shared scope variable (application, session, request, etc.. ). In databases, not defining relationships or keys. This one really bugs me. No documentation. One thing that looks amateur (but may not be) is code formatting. I think indenting code blocks makes them easier to read. -- Jeffry Houser, Web Developer, Writer, Songwriter, Recording Engineer AIM: Reboog711 | Phone: 1-203-379-0773 -- My Company: http://www.dot-com-it.com My Books: http://www.instantcoldfusion.com My Recording Studio: http://www.fcfstudios.com Connecticut Macromedia User Group: http://www.ctmug.com ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2562 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: What makes a programmer look low level
Oh yeah I forgot another short sighted new programmer annoyance I hold is: Complex code that isn't tabbed or seperated like in case of a query with 100 fields running a big comma list versus putting a carriage return after each field name follwed by a comma. Makes debugging a pain since you have to eyeball things across and can easily bury a comma or forget one. As it relates to the code it makes finding what conditional you are in impossible except where you step the program manually or insert a CFABORT and keep mocing it down the file to see where the issue is. -Paris Lundis I have personal issues with ad-hoc cfqueries in general... particularly insert statements (it's often horribly difficult for me to walk the column list once, count the number of elements down to my insert value and then have to find that in the values list)... Commenting each line of the values list (if not immediately obvious what it is) helps, but is duplication of effort and ime almost never done. I prefer to have tools that handle inserts and updates with structures -- makes them much easier for me to debug... Not cfinsert/cfupdate incidentally -- they fall in my list of things that denote a person as being inexperienced, along with -- up until now -- cfform. s. isaac dealey 954.522.6080 new epoch : isn't it time for a change? add features without fixtures with the onTap open source framework http://www.fusiontap.com http://coldfusion.sys-con.com/author/4806Dealey.htm ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2563 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: What makes a programmer look low level
That reminds me of one...Select * in SQL statements...thats a really big PITA and a sign of a beginner or a lazy coder... I completely understand readability but I would like to think my comments will help even the novice of developers understand where my variables are...but I see that...and thats the main reason I will scope things... Adam H On 5/9/05, Aaron Rouse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I tend to scope these, it is not out of worry of me not knowing what I am referencing or even of someone else coming in and not knowing. I think it is more of just out of habbit and it just gets typed. I do know at one time I came across a prior developers work who would be in a cfoutput query=myquery and they would start referencing things out of other scopes but they never did prefix any variables. It added some time to debuging a problem when their query was just SELECT * FROM MYTABLE. A lot of the things I do in regards to scoping are usually direct results of having to debug someone elses code where no scoping was done at all. This made me over time realize I am probably better off typing things out more times than not, just so it avoids confusion when never knowing the skill level or mindset of whoever it is coming in after me. On 5/9/05, Adam Haskell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So me scoping myQuery.varname is essential in a cfoutput query=myQuery block? I disagree but I know people think differently... I do agree with the url. or form. or cookie . though in many cases it could be coming from different places so scoping those are good. If you understand your current context you should not have to scope...unless you are worried about understandability Adam H ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2564 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: What makes a programmer look low level
If this is a matter of finding the right candidate, I'd be most interested in what they have done. How many projects? Where are the projects online to run through the paces? How similar is anything they have done to anything you are doing? Are they familiar with your industry? With your clients? Ask them about other developers that participated in their projects. Ask them about the obscure methods and the newest buzz wothy stuff you are using. Ask them if they have used it and if not if they are interested in learning. As them about their former managers. Ask for code samples of what you might fear or of what you use and want to see them using. There are lots of ways to do the same thing. Who knows a junior person might be doing something you just haven't thought of. A lot of programming is first about theory - how to solve the problem in many ways. Then it's about prototyping and then finally the deliverable - which is ideally optimized, speedy and reliable. Put five different mega corps doing the consulting and I bet you have five somewhat different solutions. Most people aren't writing most optimal and best speed web applications. There is room for better efficiency here like in all other software circles. Without a doubt, a junior developer will abuse the speed of todays processors and mask the slow nature of their work. For them to evolve they optimize and use different methods to do the same thing. -Paris Lundis Sent via the WebMail system at areaindex.com ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2565 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: What makes a programmer look low level
I agree that if we're generalizing, any developer that doesn't encapslate code is a poor developer (novice or otherwise) but CF, as you say, has many developers that aren't developers by trade at all. CF Applications are often times so simple that to call them an application may seem like a stretch to some. CF makes it easy to write bad code. Taking the fact that 80% of the existing applications don't use CFCs at all along with all of these other facts, and I just can't agree that someone who uses CFCs but hasn't mastered the best practices for encapsulating data and functionality is a real beginner. A real novice isn't using CFCs at all. ~Simon Simon Horwith CIO, AboutWeb - http://www.aboutweb.com Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal Member of Team Macromedia Macromedia Certified Master Instructor Blog - http://www.horwith.com Jeffry Houser wrote: Code encapsulation is CS101 concept. If someone is not understanding encapsulation, then they are a novice programmer. Whether they are a novice CF Developer or not may be open to interpretation, since many CF Developers are not programmers by trade. At 03:50 PM 5/9/2005, you wrote: I wouldn't say that not scoping variables in CFCs or breaking encapsulation by scoping variables in CFCs are traits of beginer developers. The fact that a developer is using CFCs at all (unless they're using them for all the wrong reasons) is a sign that they're not a novice CF Developer. You know, I've heard various Macromedia personel state that somewhere in the neighborhood of 80% of CFMX applications aren't using CFCs at all. Of course, someone who's not scoping variables properly in their CFCs obviously has some improvements to make, but the fact that they're using them indicates that they're already started down the right path. ~Simon Simon Horwith CIO, AboutWeb - http://www.aboutweb.com Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal Member of Team Macromedia Macromedia Certified Master Instructor Blog - http://www.horwith.com Jeffry Houser wrote: At 01:25 PM 5/9/2005, you wrote: How about we look at what makes a programmer look low level and work our way up. Two things that come right to mind are: 1. Improper use of pound signs in evaluation zones 2. Improper usage of IF clauses (not using short circuited Boolean evaluation) A few things that bug me: Non-descriptive variable names. X is a lot less descriptive than CurrentAuthor or AuthorIndex for example. Not scoping variables. Both, in regular templates (Is this a form variable, a URL variable, a local variable, etc.. ) and in Functions / CFCs (where improper scoping is more likely to have adverse side affects). Breaking encapsulation In CFCs (or custom tags or UDFs) by referencing shared scope variable (application, session, request, etc.. ). In databases, not defining relationships or keys. This one really bugs me. No documentation. One thing that looks amateur (but may not be) is code formatting. I think indenting code blocks makes them easier to read. -- Jeffry Houser, Web Developer, Writer, Songwriter, Recording Engineer AIM: Reboog711 | Phone: 1-203-379-0773 -- My Company: http://www.dot-com-it.com My Books: http://www.instantcoldfusion.com My Recording Studio: http://www.fcfstudios.com Connecticut Macromedia User Group: http://www.ctmug.com ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2566 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: What makes a programmer look low level
I've seen pages that reference a variable like #user_id# inside and outside of a query loop - and the page accepts a url parameter and form field with this name AS WELL as having a query containing a column with that name. Not specifying where the variable came from makes the code much more difficult to maintain. ~Simon Simon Horwith CIO, AboutWeb - http://www.aboutweb.com Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal Member of Team Macromedia Macromedia Certified Master Instructor Blog - http://www.horwith.com Adam Haskell wrote: Like I said I knew people would disagree, and I understand that which is why I scope everything b/c I dislike being a black sheep :) But I'll ask why are people so adamant about it? Adam H On 5/9/05, Simon Horwith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: not only do I adamantly believe that inside of a CFOUTPUT query= loop should you prefix the column names with the query name, but I also scope the variable (cfoutput query=variables.qMyQuery.). ~Simon Simon Horwith CIO, AboutWeb - http://www.aboutweb.com Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal Member of Team Macromedia Macromedia Certified Master Instructor Blog - http://www.horwith.com Adam Haskell wrote: So me scoping myQuery.varname is essential in a cfoutput query=myQuery block? I disagree but I know people think differently... I do agree with the url. or form. or cookie . though in many cases it could be coming from different places so scoping those are good. If you understand your current context you should not have to scope...unless you are worried about understandability Adam H On 5/9/05, Simon Horwith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've got to disagree - I prefix every variable I reference and can only fault those who don't. I think the reasons for this have already been discussed. ~Simon Simon Horwith CIO, AboutWeb - http://www.aboutweb.com Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal Member of Team Macromedia Macromedia Certified Master Instructor Blog - http://www.horwith.com Adam Haskell wrote: Not scoping variables. Both, in regular templates (Is this a form variable, a URL variable, a local variable, etc.. ) and in Functions / CFCs (where improper scoping is more likely to have adverse side affects). I think scoping variables makes code easier to read but to me scoping every single vaible tells me you either 1) don;t trust your code or 2) don't understand how scope is working in your current situation which would imply a lower level of skill. I know most poeple will ague always scope your variables but i am just throwing this out there :) My addition: not VARing your variavles in functions! Adam H On 5/9/05, Jeffry Houser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 01:25 PM 5/9/2005, you wrote: How about we look at what makes a programmer look low level and work our way up. Two things that come right to mind are: 1. Improper use of pound signs in evaluation zones 2. Improper usage of IF clauses (not using short circuited Boolean evaluation) A few things that bug me: Non-descriptive variable names. X is a lot less descriptive than CurrentAuthor or AuthorIndex for example. Not scoping variables. Both, in regular templates (Is this a form variable, a URL variable, a local variable, etc.. ) and in Functions / CFCs (where improper scoping is more likely to have adverse side affects). Breaking encapsulation In CFCs (or custom tags or UDFs) by referencing shared scope variable (application, session, request, etc.. ). In databases, not defining relationships or keys. This one really bugs me. No documentation. One thing that looks amateur (but may not be) is code formatting. I think indenting code blocks makes them easier to read. -- Jeffry Houser, Web Developer, Writer, Songwriter, Recording Engineer AIM: Reboog711 | Phone: 1-203-379-0773 -- My Company: http://www.dot-com-it.com My Books: http://www.instantcoldfusion.com My Recording Studio: http://www.fcfstudios.com Connecticut Macromedia User Group: http://www.ctmug.com ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2567 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: What makes a programmer look low level
Adam Haskell wrote: I think scoping variables makes code easier to read but to me scoping every single vaible tells me you either 1) don;t trust your code or 2) don't understand how scope is working in your current situation which would imply a lower level of skill. I know most poeple will ague always scope your variables but i am just throwing this out there :) Actually, when you're dealing with code someone else will need to read (say, in a multiple developer environment), it helps other developers know what scope the variable is in, as well. I can't count how many times I've seen a reference to a variable and I've had NO idea if that was a URL, FORM, local, or query variable, because the developer who wrote it didn't scope the variable reference. #2 may cover that situation, but if so it's definitely not implying a lower level of skill. Scoping variables isn't just about making it easier to read. There are definite functional considerations for it. Scott ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2543 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: What makes a programmer look low level
When you say Structure are you talking about code formatting, or something different? My impression is that you are referring to code formatting however structure could mean different things, so... I'd rather see comments than formatted code. I can read unformatted code, or format it as I'm reading it. If by structure, you mean a well-thought out architected application that makes use of CFCs / custom tags / UDFs to encapsulate functionality and data As long as the application architecture was documented, I may not complain about the lack of excessive comments within in the code (although I'd still prefer they were there). I'd rather be told what the code does w/o having to figure out. At 04:52 PM 5/9/2005, you wrote: Is it just me, or do the comments other developers leave throughout their code mostly get in the way of just reading the raw code? Having read through all kinds of existing code, I much prefer to have everything scoped and the code arranged in a consistent, logical format for readability. I'd rather see structure than comments, basically. So, if the code is difficult to read because of how its structured, rather than because of what it does, that would be an indicator of a beginner (or an expert job-security guru.) If the structure of the code is logical, most experienced developers should be able to follow along and understand right off the bat. Comments should be sparse, terse and contain obscure information (not easily seen by parsing through the lines) as an indicator for an advanced developer. Louis Mezo LogicSynthesis Tel: 240.498.8951 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.logicsynthesis.com -- Jeffry Houser, Web Developer, Writer, Songwriter, Recording Engineer AIM: Reboog711 | Phone: 1-203-379-0773 -- My Company: http://www.dot-com-it.com My Books: http://www.instantcoldfusion.com My Recording Studio: http://www.fcfstudios.com Connecticut Macromedia User Group: http://www.ctmug.com ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2573 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: What makes a programmer look low level
Both, but mostly code formatting. The architecture, if applied to framework properly, can make it that much more easy to pick everything up at a glance. But for our purposes here, lets just say formatting. The problem with referring to documentation that tells you what the code or app does is that it may not have been applied as you think. If I'm doing something with an app, I want to be sure that I'm doing it with the way it actually does work as opposed to how I think it should work. Being able to refer to good documentation is always nice as an option, but is no substitute for running through the lines and clearly seeing what everything does and how its being done. -Original Message- From: Jeffry Houser [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 5:07 PM To: CF-Jobs-Talk Subject: RE: What makes a programmer look low level When you say Structure are you talking about code formatting, or something different? My impression is that you are referring to code formatting however structure could mean different things, so... I'd rather see comments than formatted code. I can read unformatted code, or format it as I'm reading it. If by structure, you mean a well-thought out architected application that makes use of CFCs / custom tags / UDFs to encapsulate functionality and data As long as the application architecture was documented, I may not complain about the lack of excessive comments within in the code (although I'd still prefer they were there). I'd rather be told what the code does w/o having to figure out. At 04:52 PM 5/9/2005, you wrote: Is it just me, or do the comments other developers leave throughout their code mostly get in the way of just reading the raw code? Having read through all kinds of existing code, I much prefer to have everything scoped and the code arranged in a consistent, logical format for readability. I'd rather see structure than comments, basically. So, if the code is difficult to read because of how its structured, rather than because of what it does, that would be an indicator of a beginner (or an expert job-security guru.) If the structure of the code is logical, most experienced developers should be able to follow along and understand right off the bat. Comments should be sparse, terse and contain obscure information (not easily seen by parsing through the lines) as an indicator for an advanced developer. Louis Mezo LogicSynthesis Tel: 240.498.8951 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.logicsynthesis.com -- Jeffry Houser, Web Developer, Writer, Songwriter, Recording Engineer AIM: Reboog711 | Phone: 1-203-379-0773 -- My Company: http://www.dot-com-it.com My Books: http://www.instantcoldfusion.com My Recording Studio: http://www.fcfstudios.com Connecticut Macromedia User Group: http://www.ctmug.com ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2576 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: What makes a programmer look low level
I generally put form and urls into a My structure. THen I do my.variableName..but I suppose to appease some I should be doing variables.my.variableName ;) Adam H On 5/9/05, Jeffry Houser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If a page can be accessed via both url requests and form posts how does one handle a variable that may be in either scope? Do ya'll use a form2urlvariable tag (like what used to be a part of fusebox ) or do you use a different method? This is the one place I can think of where not scoping variables makes it easier. I haven't come up w/ a solution I'm happy with. At 04:28 PM 5/9/2005, you wrote: I've seen pages that reference a variable like #user_id# inside and outside of a query loop - and the page accepts a url parameter and form field with this name AS WELL as having a query containing a column with that name. Not specifying where the variable came from makes the code much more difficult to maintain. ~Simon -- Jeffry Houser, Web Developer, Writer, Songwriter, Recording Engineer AIM: Reboog711 | Phone: 1-203-379-0773 -- My Company: http://www.dot-com-it.com My Books: http://www.instantcoldfusion.com My Recording Studio: http://www.fcfstudios.com Connecticut Macromedia User Group: http://www.ctmug.com ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2577 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: What makes a programmer look low level
What I have seen some do is put URL and FORM into the REQUEST scope and then reference that scope. On 5/9/05, Jeffry Houser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If a page can be accessed via both url requests and form posts how does one handle a variable that may be in either scope? Do ya'll use a form2urlvariable tag (like what used to be a part of fusebox ) or do you use a different method? This is the one place I can think of where not scoping variables makes it easier. I haven't come up w/ a solution I'm happy with. At 04:28 PM 5/9/2005, you wrote: I've seen pages that reference a variable like #user_id# inside and outside of a query loop - and the page accepts a url parameter and form field with this name AS WELL as having a query containing a column with that name. Not specifying where the variable came from makes the code much more difficult to maintain. ~Simon -- Jeffry Houser, Web Developer, Writer, Songwriter, Recording Engineer AIM: Reboog711 | Phone: 1-203-379-0773 -- My Company: http://www.dot-com-it.com My Books: http://www.instantcoldfusion.com My Recording Studio: http://www.fcfstudios.com Connecticut Macromedia User Group: http://www.ctmug.com ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2578 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: What makes a programmer look low level
You can ask the applicant, ask a company the applicant has worked for, see if they have any open source projects, etc... I never have problems getting code samples from applicants, even code that's a few years old. Most people are quite proud of what they've worked on, regardless of what someone else thinks of it. I could probably dig up some of my code from CF4 if I really dug around and tried... I doubt I have anything left-over from CF3 ... dunno how many years that goes back... I'd expect it'd be a challenge even for me (on my own machine), if even possible... but then I may not be indicative of most programmers. I'd be mighty impressed if you were able to find something of mine that was 3 yrs old. :P Though I will say that does show dedication to the hiring process. :) s. isaac dealey 954.522.6080 new epoch : isn't it time for a change? add features without fixtures with the onTap open source framework http://www.fusiontap.com http://www.sys-con.com/author/?id=4806 ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2579 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: What makes a programmer look low level
The length of time someone has worked is not necessarily an indicator of their experience level. Even someone who is a recent graduate could have written something in an intership position or (I hope) classes they have taken. Point being, I have never met anyone applying for even the most basic position that has never written a line of code before. Certainly, code samples are not the only way I determine the suitability of a candidate. However, I do find it somewhat enlightening and gives me a bit more information that helps me just that much more in finding the right candidate. In fact, I have gotten code samples from companies (and I have given permission to release code samples for people) written by job candidates. Really, it's not that difficult. As for inconveniencing someone, the onus is on the candidate to make the best impression they can, so I don't really consider it any sort of problem for them. And of course, if they wrote good code to being with, that's great. That why I said that using your brain is somewhat vital in making an accurate assessment. There are some people that just get it from the start, and getting those kinds of people, when it happens, is fantastic. Again, this is my experience with hiring that I'm speaking from. - Original Message - From: Simon Horwith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Monday, May 9, 2005 3:26 pm Subject: Re: What makes a programmer look low level no, it's never difficult to get code samples, but if you ask someone for a code sample that's 3 years old, there's absoutely no way to know that it really is 3 years old. True, you could call their employer or former employer and ask for code or whether or not the code you were given is that old, but that's really inconvenient for the person you call (and most companies aren't going to give you samples of code that they own just because you're interviewing a former employee). My point is that you really end up having to take their word for it so why bother? I'd rather look at the code they write now. I thought we were talking about intro. level developers - I hope that anyone who's been developing with CF considers themselves better than novice level. If not, you probably don't need to bother asking for a code sample, do you? What about developers who's code from right now really doesn't show a drastic improvement from the code they wrote 3 years ago - but their code back then was very good to begin with? That's another thing you have to take into account. Personally, I find looking at code from the past to be an excellent method for gauging your own improvement (and I recommend it), but not a very effective interviewing technique. ~Simon Simon Horwith CIO, AboutWeb - http://www.aboutweb.com Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal Member of Team Macromedia Macromedia Certified Master Instructor Blog - http://www.horwith.com Kwang Suh wrote: You can ask the applicant, ask a company the applicant has worked for, see if they have any open source projects, etc... I never have problems getting code samples from applicants, even code that's a few years old. Most people are quite proud of what they've worked on, regardless of what someone else thinks of it. - Original Message - From: Simon Horwith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Monday, May 9, 2005 2:06 pm Subject: Re: What makes a programmer look low level I'd love to know how ou find code that an applicant wrote 3 years ago. That's just not a realistic approach to finding the right candidate for a job. Use brain to determine approach to candidate selection ... sorry, I couldn't resist ;) ~Simon Simon Horwith CIO, AboutWeb - http://www.aboutweb.com Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal Member of Team Macromedia Macromedia Certified Master Instructor Blog - http://www.horwith.com ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2580 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: What makes a programmer look low level
Good documentation should show you how it does work. I find it hard to imagine a point where code documentation detracts from code readability, which is what your original complaint was. At 05:43 PM 5/9/2005, you wrote: Both, but mostly code formatting. The architecture, if applied to framework properly, can make it that much more easy to pick everything up at a glance. But for our purposes here, lets just say formatting. The problem with referring to documentation that tells you what the code or app does is that it may not have been applied as you think. If I'm doing something with an app, I want to be sure that I'm doing it with the way it actually does work as opposed to how I think it should work. Being able to refer to good documentation is always nice as an option, but is no substitute for running through the lines and clearly seeing what everything does and how its being done. -Original Message- From: Jeffry Houser [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 5:07 PM To: CF-Jobs-Talk Subject: RE: What makes a programmer look low level When you say Structure are you talking about code formatting, or something different? My impression is that you are referring to code formatting however structure could mean different things, so... I'd rather see comments than formatted code. I can read unformatted code, or format it as I'm reading it. If by structure, you mean a well-thought out architected application that makes use of CFCs / custom tags / UDFs to encapsulate functionality and data As long as the application architecture was documented, I may not complain about the lack of excessive comments within in the code (although I'd still prefer they were there). I'd rather be told what the code does w/o having to figure out. At 04:52 PM 5/9/2005, you wrote: Is it just me, or do the comments other developers leave throughout their code mostly get in the way of just reading the raw code? Having read through all kinds of existing code, I much prefer to have everything scoped and the code arranged in a consistent, logical format for readability. I'd rather see structure than comments, basically. So, if the code is difficult to read because of how its structured, rather than because of what it does, that would be an indicator of a beginner (or an expert job-security guru.) If the structure of the code is logical, most experienced developers should be able to follow along and understand right off the bat. Comments should be sparse, terse and contain obscure information (not easily seen by parsing through the lines) as an indicator for an advanced developer. Louis Mezo LogicSynthesis Tel: 240.498.8951 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.logicsynthesis.com -- Jeffry Houser, Web Developer, Writer, Songwriter, Recording Engineer AIM: Reboog711 | Phone: 1-203-379-0773 -- My Company: http://www.dot-com-it.com My Books: http://www.instantcoldfusion.com My Recording Studio: http://www.fcfstudios.com Connecticut Macromedia User Group: http://www.ctmug.com ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2582 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: What makes a programmer look low level
I agree. My point about having at least 3 years of experience wasn't that it is an indicator of their level of experience... just that anyone who is applying for an entry level position and has 3 years of experience, is most likely not very sharp. ~Simon Simon Horwith CIO, AboutWeb - http://www.aboutweb.com Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal Member of Team Macromedia Macromedia Certified Master Instructor Blog - http://www.horwith.com Kwang Suh wrote: The length of time someone has worked is not necessarily an indicator of their experience level. Even someone who is a recent graduate could have written something in an intership position or (I hope) classes they have taken. Point being, I have never met anyone applying for even the most basic position that has never written a line of code before. Certainly, code samples are not the only way I determine the suitability of a candidate. However, I do find it somewhat enlightening and gives me a bit more information that helps me just that much more in finding the right candidate. In fact, I have gotten code samples from companies (and I have given permission to release code samples for people) written by job candidates. Really, it's not that difficult. As for inconveniencing someone, the onus is on the candidate to make the best impression they can, so I don't really consider it any sort of problem for them. And of course, if they wrote good code to being with, that's great. That why I said that using your brain is somewhat vital in making an accurate assessment. There are some people that just get it from the start, and getting those kinds of people, when it happens, is fantastic. Again, this is my experience with hiring that I'm speaking from. - Original Message - From: Simon Horwith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Monday, May 9, 2005 3:26 pm Subject: Re: What makes a programmer look low level no, it's never difficult to get code samples, but if you ask someone for a code sample that's 3 years old, there's absoutely no way to know that it really is 3 years old. True, you could call their employer or former employer and ask for code or whether or not the code you were given is that old, but that's really inconvenient for the person you call (and most companies aren't going to give you samples of code that they own just because you're interviewing a former employee). My point is that you really end up having to take their word for it so why bother? I'd rather look at the code they write now. I thought we were talking about intro. level developers - I hope that anyone who's been developing with CF considers themselves better than novice level. If not, you probably don't need to bother asking for a code sample, do you? What about developers who's code from right now really doesn't show a drastic improvement from the code they wrote 3 years ago - but their code back then was very good to begin with? That's another thing you have to take into account. Personally, I find looking at code from the past to be an excellent method for gauging your own improvement (and I recommend it), but not a very effective interviewing technique. ~Simon Simon Horwith CIO, AboutWeb - http://www.aboutweb.com Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal Member of Team Macromedia Macromedia Certified Master Instructor Blog - http://www.horwith.com Kwang Suh wrote: You can ask the applicant, ask a company the applicant has worked for, see if they have any open source projects, etc... I never have problems getting code samples from applicants, even code that's a few years old. Most people are quite proud of what they've worked on, regardless of what someone else thinks of it. - Original Message - From: Simon Horwith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Monday, May 9, 2005 2:06 pm Subject: Re: What makes a programmer look low level I'd love to know how ou find code that an applicant wrote 3 years ago. That's just not a realistic approach to finding the right candidate for a job. Use brain to determine approach to candidate selection ... sorry, I couldn't resist ;) ~Simon Simon Horwith CIO, AboutWeb - http://www.aboutweb.com Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal Member of Team Macromedia Macromedia Certified Master Instructor Blog - http://www.horwith.com ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2583 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11
RE: What makes a programmer look low level
1. Not predefining variable for later use at start of code file or in a universal inclusion. I'll disagree here and say this is a matter of style, not skill. This makes sense to do in an environment where multiple developers will be working on the same code-base all the time, but for smaller shops where one or two people are working on a project it's a bit much to expect. You can be low level and coding out a fuse (within Fusebox) and have all of your variables defined in a provided FuseDoc, but that doesn't make you any better than an advanced developer who doesn't lay everything out at the top of the file. ColdFusion NEQ Pascal. --- Justin D. Scott Vice President Sceiron Interactive, Inc. www.sceiron.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] 941.378.5341 - office 941.320.2402 - mobile 941.870.5626 - facsimile ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2584 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: What makes a programmer look low level
Not all documentation is good; in fact, most is bad (in my experience.) It saves time to go right to the code to see how it actually works. When you're reading through the lines, it seems easier and more readable without comments interrupting your train of thought. Doesn't take much imagination, just experience working with a lot of existing code (with sub par comments.) So, I like to be able to think clearly while parsing through code, which is also why I prefer to have all the vars scoped so I stay focused on the important thing, which is this; my understanding of the mechanics of the app, not my ability to recall the smallest detail about syntax. Of course, the syntax itself could be annoyingly written, such that it could interfere with clarity; but so long as it is consistent throughout the code, I just categorize this as dialect. -Original Message- From: Jeffry Houser [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 7:18 PM To: CF-Jobs-Talk Subject: RE: What makes a programmer look low level Good documentation should show you how it does work. I find it hard to imagine a point where code documentation detracts from code readability, which is what your original complaint was. At 05:43 PM 5/9/2005, you wrote: Both, but mostly code formatting. The architecture, if applied to framework properly, can make it that much more easy to pick everything up at a glance. But for our purposes here, lets just say formatting. The problem with referring to documentation that tells you what the code or app does is that it may not have been applied as you think. If I'm doing something with an app, I want to be sure that I'm doing it with the way it actually does work as opposed to how I think it should work. Being able to refer to good documentation is always nice as an option, but is no substitute for running through the lines and clearly seeing what everything does and how its being done. -Original Message- From: Jeffry Houser [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 5:07 PM To: CF-Jobs-Talk Subject: RE: What makes a programmer look low level When you say Structure are you talking about code formatting, or something different? My impression is that you are referring to code formatting however structure could mean different things, so... I'd rather see comments than formatted code. I can read unformatted code, or format it as I'm reading it. If by structure, you mean a well-thought out architected application that makes use of CFCs / custom tags / UDFs to encapsulate functionality and data As long as the application architecture was documented, I may not complain about the lack of excessive comments within in the code (although I'd still prefer they were there). I'd rather be told what the code does w/o having to figure out. At 04:52 PM 5/9/2005, you wrote: Is it just me, or do the comments other developers leave throughout their code mostly get in the way of just reading the raw code? Having read through all kinds of existing code, I much prefer to have everything scoped and the code arranged in a consistent, logical format for readability. I'd rather see structure than comments, basically. So, if the code is difficult to read because of how its structured, rather than because of what it does, that would be an indicator of a beginner (or an expert job-security guru.) If the structure of the code is logical, most experienced developers should be able to follow along and understand right off the bat. Comments should be sparse, terse and contain obscure information (not easily seen by parsing through the lines) as an indicator for an advanced developer. Louis Mezo LogicSynthesis Tel: 240.498.8951 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.logicsynthesis.com -- Jeffry Houser, Web Developer, Writer, Songwriter, Recording Engineer AIM: Reboog711 | Phone: 1-203-379-0773 -- My Company: http://www.dot-com-it.com My Books: http://www.instantcoldfusion.com My Recording Studio: http://www.fcfstudios.com Connecticut Macromedia User Group: http://www.ctmug.com ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2585 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
