Re: Stung by HostMySite price increase?
Most of the companies I work for INSIST on *everything* Microsoft because in their eyes, *only* Microsoft is suitable for stuffed shirt corporate work. True, And IMHO the only reason is the incompetence of managers. The bigger the organization is, the higher the decision maker is, And the higher the decision maker is, the less he knows about software tools and hardware. Finally, the more incompetent he is, the more he needs to protect himself in case of any trouble. So, if he can say I chose Micosoft for software, the biggest in the world, and IBM for hardware, the biggest of the world... he thinks he cannot be wrong. ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:326067 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Stung by HostMySite price increase?
I would think that large corporations place great value on products whose use adheres to a strict chain-of-accountability for performance rather than open source software, which from my limited point-of-view, belongs to no one and, therefore, offers fuzzy accountability. Now, realize, I've used MySQL for years without issue, but I'm also not a large corporation. (*that*'s an understatement! :o) And for those of you who could point to my ignorance as an example of the mind-set of corporate decision-makers who are ultimately accountable for the performance of software and its impact on their company, realize that decision-makers need to work with vendors who can provide software and services that fit within the comfort zone of said corporate decision-makers, not software that *may* be technically superior but lacks an accountable vendor who fits within a chain-of-accountability. (And this statement isn't in reference to the MySQL / SQL Server debate, as I've never used SQL Server) As a corporate head, would I trust my IT staff, programmers, etc., even if they knew better than I (which I would certainly hope they do), to each do what they thought was best concerning what software and vendors my department would do business with, when my job would be on the line for their decisions? Not a chance... If the buck stops here, then all decisions run through here. And I doubt than anyone on this list, who has anyone working for them, simply trusts all decisions they make without oversight and approval of their practices and software in use. It's just the nature of business, it seems, that big businesses like working with big businesses. Less efficient? perhaps... More costly? perhaps... more comforting? probably... Sleeping soundly at night is worth a lot of money... Just some thoughts... Rick -Original Message- From: Claude Schneegans [mailto:schneeg...@internetique.com] Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 11:14 AM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: Stung by HostMySite price increase? Most of the companies I work for INSIST on *everything* Microsoft because in their eyes, *only* Microsoft is suitable for stuffed shirt corporate work. True, And IMHO the only reason is the incompetence of managers. The bigger the organization is, the higher the decision maker is, And the higher the decision maker is, the less he knows about software tools and hardware. Finally, the more incompetent he is, the more he needs to protect himself in case of any trouble. So, if he can say I chose Micosoft for software, the biggest in the world, and IBM for hardware, the biggest of the world... he thinks he cannot be wrong. ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:326068 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Stung by HostMySite price increase?
I'm kinda jumping into the middle of this thread but I thought it would be worth mentioning that I've had exceptionally good experiences with PostgreSQL. It's licensed even more liberally then MySQL, and is regularly benchmarked at being faster with complex queries then MySQL is. I started using PostgreSQL back in the days of MySQL 3, before MySQL supported simple things like sub-queries. That was incredibly frustrating at the time, and PostgreSQL fixed me right up with a free, fast, functional, open-source solution. It's worth a look if you're still open to the idea of open-source solutions. Warm regards, Jordan Michaels Vivio Technologies http://www.viviotech.net/ Open BlueDragon Steering Committee Adobe Solution Provider David McGuigan wrote: I'm not against open source in any way shape or form! SOME of it is fantastic. But that doesn't mean I think that all open source products are great or even decent. Honestly it seems like a lot of them are pretty fruitless, and more the personal hobbies and indulgences of the developers than useful bits of software ( read: a few of my own open source projects that luckily never even went public ; ). MySQL obviously not included. I adopted Firefox literally the moment I discovered tabbed browsing back before IE had it and when any product ( open source or otherwise ) is good enough, I evangelize it like a Jehova's Witness ( that's a compliment, it's pretty impressive that they hit the streets on Saturdays just to spread some church ). Like I said, I've loved and used MySQL for years, and am only now unlocking its deep, dirty secrets. Clearly, it can do plenty of things very well or well enough. So it's great ( or fine ) for a lot of projects / operations. Unfortunately, for the stuff I was doing, it really really struggled ( and was obliterated in comparative performance by SQL Server 2008 ). Unfortunately ( sorry Judah ), I can't go very deeply into the explicit details of what MySQL was struggling with because our implementation is pretty tightly bound to some closed-sourcey commercial / intellectual property even at the database level. I can say that generally speaking some general issues that MySQL exhibited were the inability to correctly determine its own best execution plans, leverage precisely-defined indexes even when explicitly directed to with SQL-level overrides, correctly negotiate certain types of subqueries and not do more work than it needed to ( which was pretty ridiculous, at one point we were using ColdFusion to mitigate MySQL's own self-inflicted overload by feeding simulated subquery results to other queries as parameters by relaying the results to and from CF ), and reliably join to the same table( s ) multiple times against different subsets of its data to create highly dynamic temporary composites. Its raw view performance was also pretty weak at a real scale. Another thing to mention ( since you mention the storage engine implementation in MySQL ) is that the issues we had were almost exclusively with the InnoDB storage engine ( the most popular transactional engine with support for foreign key cascades ), and we used a design that was very driven by automated referential integrity with foreign and composite keys, which some people see as a more contemporary, cutting-edgey approach. After our complete re-architecture ( which now relies on application-server management of most of the things we tried to let MySQL handle automatically ) and a mostly MyISAM table design, MySQL is performing much, much better. On Sun, Sep 6, 2009 at 3:17 PM, Jochem van Dieten joch...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Sep 5, 2009 at 1:40 PM, David McGuigan wrote: Companies use open source ( and free ) software for a variety of reasons. Usually out of either stubbornness or a genetic allergy to Microsoft. Most of the other Google apps though have seemed really slow to me ( and been down completely more times than I can count on one hand ). I use Gmail, Calendar, their Spreadsheet/Docs, IM, etc. And the only app I've ever really been impressed with of theirs is Chrome ( which is my favorite browser ). You use Chrome? So are you stubborn or allergic? Jochem -- Jochem van Dieten http://jochem.vandieten.net/ ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:326071 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Stung by HostMySite price increase?
David, your response was artful, I'm going to put a cool dude check next to your name in my book. :) Did you bring in any hired guns/experts for your MySQL stuff? I think the Dolphin is blue, that might be your problem right there! =) We all have our strengths and weaknesses, which is pretty cool, so more power too you for finding a solution to your problems. I wouldn't blame a hammer for not being a good wrench, though. :)p -- Nothing endures but personal qualities. Walt Whitman On Sun, Sep 6, 2009 at 11:44 AM, David McGuigan wrote: Oh you're totally right, I obviously had it misconfigured. I must've not even thought to research and implement strategic configuration of the MySQL instance itself. Man I wish I had thought of that in the enormous amount of research and testing we had to do. It sounds like such a simple, obvious place to start. Oh wait, that was one of the things we spent the most time on. Or no maybe you were right the second time. It had to do with my attitude. MySQL was particularly bad at certain types of queries because for some reason, that's what I believed in my heart that it would be. I guess maybe the purple dolphin logo triggered some kind of subliminal prejudice in my mind and that's what's been holding MySQL back. Hold on I'm going to go say a little prayer and then run them again. I'm sure that'll fix it. Thanks buddy! We iterated through a kaleidoscope of configuration strategies and were on more than ample hardware ( 2 xeon quads, 16GB ram, a RAID 5 of 15k drives ) but even the ones that should've been ideal on paper, though they did improver performance quite a bit compared to other configurations, could not exempt MySQL from the fact that it is very bad at certain things. ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:326072 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Stung by HostMySite price increase?
On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 9:53 AM, Rick Faircloth wrote: ... It's just the nature of business, it seems, that big businesses like working with big businesses. Less efficient? perhaps... More costly? perhaps... more comforting? probably... Sleeping soundly at night is worth a lot of money... But it's all an illusion! If my IT staff knew better than me, HELL YES I would go with what they thought, vs. what *I* thought. That's my butt on the line! =] If the project sucks, it's not gonna matter what it's using to suck. I guess the main difference is that *maybe* you could sue Microsoft or whatever, but suing some large software company doesn't sound like warm fuzzies to me. =) Hrm. Catch 22. Small companies don't have much $$$, and large companies have much $$$, and much lawyers. If the quality of the support and accountability from software giants just knocked my socks off, maybe I'd be singing a different tune. It hasn't so far. And with open source, you can do things like write your own engine for MySQL: http://www.percona.com/docs/wiki/percona-xtradb:start Plus, you can do distributed computing with open source projects without paying X amount of $ per CPU. I'd guess that's part of why some of the Big Boys use open source vs. something else (they have lots and lots of CPUs). They may have to do stuff like code towards their chosen software's strengths, tho. Alas, don't we all. MS is cool because so many MS products tie-in with each other at a low level. Which is also why it sucks, and why I wish our government didn't use it as it's main OS. Didn't we learn anything from Battlestar Galactica?!? But I'm digressing even further. :) Eh. Nothing's perfect. Or maybe everything is, just how it is, like Mr. Rogers says. Yeah, I'm rolling with Mr. Rogers. -- The world is full of women blindsided by the unceasing demands of motherhood, still flabbergasted by how a job can be terrific and torturous. Anna Quind ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:326073 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Stung by HostMySite price increase?
For Oracle and other non-free vendors, there is a benchmark: http://www.tpc.org/ FWIW, David obviously had MySQL mis-configured. :) Or else maybe he didn't *believe* it would work very well, and thus, it didn't. And FWIW*2, there are a couple open source versions of CF now. The best reason for using MS SQL is that you're an MS shop, and have tons of licenses for everything, don't mind the $$$ per processor, per user, etc., etc.. I prefer freedom, personally. -- There are admirable potentialities in every human being. Believe in your strength and your youth. Learn to repeat endlessly to yourself, 'It all depends on me.' Andre Gide On Sat, Sep 5, 2009 at 7:49 AM, James Holmes wrote: We use Oracle instead of SQL Server for the same reason :-) mxAjax / CFAjax docs and other useful articles: http://www.bifrost.com.au/blog/ 2009/9/5 David McGuigan : Now I kind of see SQL Server the same way I see ColdFusion. You pay for it because it's better. ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:326056 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Stung by HostMySite price increase?
Oh you're totally right, I obviously had it misconfigured. I must've not even thought to research and implement strategic configuration of the MySQL instance itself. Man I wish I had thought of that in the enormous amount of research and testing we had to do. It sounds like such a simple, obvious place to start. Oh wait, that was one of the things we spent the most time on. Or no maybe you were right the second time. It had to do with my attitude. MySQL was particularly bad at certain types of queries because for some reason, that's what I believed in my heart that it would be. I guess maybe the purple dolphin logo triggered some kind of subliminal prejudice in my mind and that's what's been holding MySQL back. Hold on I'm going to go say a little prayer and then run them again. I'm sure that'll fix it. Thanks buddy! We iterated through a kaleidoscope of configuration strategies and were on more than ample hardware ( 2 xeon quads, 16GB ram, a RAID 5 of 15k drives ) but even the ones that should've been ideal on paper, though they did improver performance quite a bit compared to other configurations, could not exempt MySQL from the fact that it is very bad at certain things. On Sun, Sep 6, 2009 at 11:14 AM, denstar valliants...@gmail.com wrote: For Oracle and other non-free vendors, there is a benchmark: http://www.tpc.org/ FWIW, David obviously had MySQL mis-configured. :) Or else maybe he didn't *believe* it would work very well, and thus, it didn't. And FWIW*2, there are a couple open source versions of CF now. The best reason for using MS SQL is that you're an MS shop, and have tons of licenses for everything, don't mind the $$$ per processor, per user, etc., etc.. I prefer freedom, personally. -- There are admirable potentialities in every human being. Believe in your strength and your youth. Learn to repeat endlessly to yourself, 'It all depends on me.' Andre Gide On Sat, Sep 5, 2009 at 7:49 AM, James Holmes wrote: We use Oracle instead of SQL Server for the same reason :-) mxAjax / CFAjax docs and other useful articles: http://www.bifrost.com.au/blog/ 2009/9/5 David McGuigan : Now I kind of see SQL Server the same way I see ColdFusion. You pay for it because it's better. ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:326057 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Stung by HostMySite price increase?
On Sun, Sep 6, 2009 at 10:44 AM, David McGuigandavidmcgui...@gmail.com wrote: We iterated through a kaleidoscope of configuration strategies and were on more than ample hardware ( 2 xeon quads, 16GB ram, a RAID 5 of 15k drives ) but even the ones that should've been ideal on paper, though they did improver performance quite a bit compared to other configurations, could not exempt MySQL from the fact that it is very bad at certain things. Out of curiosity, which things did you find it perform poorly on? I haven't really used MySql in production because I was always on either MS SQL or Sybase starting back before MySql was really around (and definitely before it had support for transactions or foreign keys). One of the things I have appreciated about MySql from afar (again, haven't used it in production myself) is that you could choose different engines for different tables based on the type of interaction you'd have with that table. I always thought that was pretty sweet. So what didn't MySql do well at in your testing? I'm genuinely curious as I keep meaning to get my hands more dirty with the new versions. Cheers, Judah ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:326059 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Stung by HostMySite price increase?
On Sat, Sep 5, 2009 at 1:40 PM, David McGuigan wrote: Companies use open source ( and free ) software for a variety of reasons. Usually out of either stubbornness or a genetic allergy to Microsoft. Most of the other Google apps though have seemed really slow to me ( and been down completely more times than I can count on one hand ). I use Gmail, Calendar, their Spreadsheet/Docs, IM, etc. And the only app I've ever really been impressed with of theirs is Chrome ( which is my favorite browser ). You use Chrome? So are you stubborn or allergic? Jochem -- Jochem van Dieten http://jochem.vandieten.net/ ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:326060 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Stung by HostMySite price increase?
I'm not against open source in any way shape or form! SOME of it is fantastic. But that doesn't mean I think that all open source products are great or even decent. Honestly it seems like a lot of them are pretty fruitless, and more the personal hobbies and indulgences of the developers than useful bits of software ( read: a few of my own open source projects that luckily never even went public ; ). MySQL obviously not included. I adopted Firefox literally the moment I discovered tabbed browsing back before IE had it and when any product ( open source or otherwise ) is good enough, I evangelize it like a Jehova's Witness ( that's a compliment, it's pretty impressive that they hit the streets on Saturdays just to spread some church ). Like I said, I've loved and used MySQL for years, and am only now unlocking its deep, dirty secrets. Clearly, it can do plenty of things very well or well enough. So it's great ( or fine ) for a lot of projects / operations. Unfortunately, for the stuff I was doing, it really really struggled ( and was obliterated in comparative performance by SQL Server 2008 ). Unfortunately ( sorry Judah ), I can't go very deeply into the explicit details of what MySQL was struggling with because our implementation is pretty tightly bound to some closed-sourcey commercial / intellectual property even at the database level. I can say that generally speaking some general issues that MySQL exhibited were the inability to correctly determine its own best execution plans, leverage precisely-defined indexes even when explicitly directed to with SQL-level overrides, correctly negotiate certain types of subqueries and not do more work than it needed to ( which was pretty ridiculous, at one point we were using ColdFusion to mitigate MySQL's own self-inflicted overload by feeding simulated subquery results to other queries as parameters by relaying the results to and from CF ), and reliably join to the same table( s ) multiple times against different subsets of its data to create highly dynamic temporary composites. Its raw view performance was also pretty weak at a real scale. Another thing to mention ( since you mention the storage engine implementation in MySQL ) is that the issues we had were almost exclusively with the InnoDB storage engine ( the most popular transactional engine with support for foreign key cascades ), and we used a design that was very driven by automated referential integrity with foreign and composite keys, which some people see as a more contemporary, cutting-edgey approach. After our complete re-architecture ( which now relies on application-server management of most of the things we tried to let MySQL handle automatically ) and a mostly MyISAM table design, MySQL is performing much, much better. On Sun, Sep 6, 2009 at 3:17 PM, Jochem van Dieten joch...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Sep 5, 2009 at 1:40 PM, David McGuigan wrote: Companies use open source ( and free ) software for a variety of reasons. Usually out of either stubbornness or a genetic allergy to Microsoft. Most of the other Google apps though have seemed really slow to me ( and been down completely more times than I can count on one hand ). I use Gmail, Calendar, their Spreadsheet/Docs, IM, etc. And the only app I've ever really been impressed with of theirs is Chrome ( which is my favorite browser ). You use Chrome? So are you stubborn or allergic? Jochem -- Jochem van Dieten http://jochem.vandieten.net/ ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:326061 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Stung by HostMySite price increase?
Companies use open source ( and free ) software for a variety of reasons. Usually out of either stubbornness or a genetic allergy to Microsoft. Most of the companies I work for INSIST on *everything* Microsoft because in their eyes, *only* Microsoft is suitable for stuffed shirt corporate work. Gawd forbid you'd want to use some open source app because just the term open source is enough to send their legal teams and IT demons screaming into the open doors of an asylum. I've even having to rewrite a couple of Coldfusion apps over to .net simple because It's not Microsoft - *no* other reason at all. The apps are stable, there's nothing wrong with them and they perform 110% the way the client expects. But still, it's *not* Microsoft. Meanwhile, I type all my docs and stuff in Open Office on my Mac and shake my head in disbelief. Microsoft has corp types snowed that bad?? ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:326063 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Stung by HostMySite price increase?
This seems to have gone way off topic. But we got the same notice from them. I would have thought they would have thoroughly researched that pricing change before they contacted us, but I am not positive we even need the license upgrade they said we needed. When I asked them about it they told me they would have to research it more and get back with me next week. I seem to think they probably should have really made sure that what they were telling me I needed was correct, perhaps consulting with Microsoft and covering their bases and whatnot. So while I am still waiting for the answer on whether we need the license they say we need, you may want to double check on what they are telling you as well. We recently got a note from HostMySite (now Hosting.com) telling us about a big price increase in SQL Server licensing. We've had a dedicated server with HMS for about a year and the mere thought of shopping for a new hosting provider makes me feel tired. Has anyone else encountered this? We have considered purchasing our own SQL Server licensing and I am wondering (predictably) whether a processor license is the only way to go for a web app database. How hard is it to switch from SQL Server to MySQL? -- *Billy Cox* IT Manager *Old World Spices* bi...@oldworldspices.com 816.861.0400 x138 ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:326064 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Stung by HostMySite price increase?
.16 seconds in 2009 is the equivalent of ~20 minutes in 1990's time. I'm kind of kidding. But are we sure that Google's search ( which is probably its best performing software ) uses MySQL anyway? I thought it used BigTable or whatev ( http://labs.google.com/papers/bigtable.html ) Most of the other Google apps though have seemed really slow to me ( and been down completely more times than I can count on one hand ). I use Gmail, Calendar, their Spreadsheet/Docs, IM, etc. And the only app I've ever really been impressed with of theirs is Chrome ( which is my favorite browser ). I actually really like SQLYog ( save the logo ) and use it in combination with Navicat and MySQL Query Browser ( each one does a few things well, other things horribly, so I alternate for specific tasks ). But once you get into some less-common, complex-ier shiz it struggles pretty badly. Trying to edit compound views derived from composite alphanumeric keys was a total fail for example. The SQL it generated under the hood ( which you can inspect in the history tab, a feature I love ), was totally wrong and would error if I was lucky ( and if not just execute incorrect operations against the d.b. ). But anyway, just as a quick anecdote. In the last few months I have been able to repeatedly, accidentally drop MySQL to its knees with what I'd consider to be basic ( though highly dynamic ), clean, structurally sound database designs and not-that-fancy querying. Even taking a scalpel and microscope and patching every gap with highly designed indexes and directives to MySQL to use them on even an SQL level couldn't make it do what it should and perform even acceptably in certain cases. Popping the exact same tables, data, and SQL into an SQL Server 2008 instance? Instantly, from the very first execution took operations that were taking 15-120 full seconds to execute down to 5 MILLISECONDS. WITHOUT EVEN ADDING ONE MANUAL INDEX AT ALL. That knocked my socks off, and was how I would've expected any modern database system to perform with what I was doing before the MySQL struggle. Granted, there are some things MySQL does plenty well, but scattered all around the feature set are bugs and land mines waiting to go off in your application or development that may or may not affect you depending on what your application does. And you either need the luxury of an infinite amount of time to throw rocks and try to discover and pick off all of the triggers, or to hire a bomb expert last minute ( which I would bet money that most of the high-scale companies that went with MySQL end up doing, which is how it makes its money ) to come in and fix everything and divvy you the hacks and secrets at the rate of 8 million dollars per minute of support. Up until I started developing an application that needed to support thousands of concurrent users with real, instajax performance I'd loved MySQL and never seen any reason to even check out other options. It was free, the IDEs worked well enough, and it seemed pretty popular. But when I did. And development came to a standstill... And I found myself doing more scavenger hunting, experimentation, and research than coding... just to make the software perform its sole function acceptably... everything changed. What a waste of my time. Now I kind of see SQL Server the same way I see ColdFusion. You pay for it because it's better. It saves you time. It lets you focus on what you should be focusing on and producing great applications. Total ROI. This whole thread has actually gotten me kind of excited to move to SQL Server. So thanks Billy! PS Gerald I think we should write our congressman and get America to adopt a new standard unit of measurement of time. I would much rather measure everything in blips than seconds. On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 9:30 PM, Gerald Guido gerald.gu...@gmail.com wrote: Out of the companies you listed, I've only ever used Facebook, Flickr, Google, eBay, iStockPhoto, Ticketmaster, and Yahoo. I'm not saying this is a litmus test, but with the exception of maybe Yahoo ( but I haven't really used Yahoo THAT much ), I have always consciously THOUGHT as I used every single one of those other sites that their performance was pretty lackluster. Searching for the letter a on google. Results *1* - *100* of about *17,790,000,000* for *a*. (*0.16* seconds) But yeah That isn't a MySLQ query. Gmail can be sluggish but I think it is more of a JS engine issue more than anything else. Better IDE and tools ( the MySQL enterprise tools, at least the ones I've used, are all but a joke ). The MySQL software bundle is pretty crappy. I stopped using them years ago. I was never able to get the migration tools to work right. However, SQLyog, Toad for MySQL and the EMS tools rock IMHO. a genetic allergy to Microsoft. Now that is funny. But yeah, I moved to MySQL cuz it was free and I was a freelancer at the time. $5k is a lot of beer and donuts. But at
Re: Stung by HostMySite price increase?
We use Oracle instead of SQL Server for the same reason :-) mxAjax / CFAjax docs and other useful articles: http://www.bifrost.com.au/blog/ 2009/9/5 David McGuigan davidmcgui...@gmail.com: Now I kind of see SQL Server the same way I see ColdFusion. You pay for it because it's better. ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:326034 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Stung by HostMySite price increase?
Like most things, the answer to all your questions is it depends. If you have an app that doesn't have a big load, SQL Server Express might do fine for you. It is free but will only use 1 processor core, 1 GB of RAM and has a 4 GB database size limitation. Porting over to MySql can be very easy or pretty difficult. A lot depends on how you write your code. Do you use an ORM like Transfer or Reactor? If so, then you don't have to worry about the back end db as it is abstracted and the ORM will take care of the db-specific details for you. Do you use a lot of TSQL in your queries? If you have MSSQL-specific code strewn all over, like using SCOPE_IDENTITY() to get back a newly inserted autoincrement id, then you'll have more work to do to translate that over to MySQL-specific equivalents. I'd try setting your app up with MySql. See what breaks. Then try it with SQL Server Express and do some load testing. See what happens. That should give you some guidance. Cheers, Judah On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 8:18 AM, Billy Coxbi...@oldworldspices.com wrote: We recently got a note from HostMySite (now Hosting.com) telling us about a big price increase in SQL Server licensing. We've had a dedicated server with HMS for about a year and the mere thought of shopping for a new hosting provider makes me feel tired. Has anyone else encountered this? We have considered purchasing our own SQL Server licensing and I am wondering (predictably) whether a processor license is the only way to go for a web app database. How hard is it to switch from SQL Server to MySQL? -- *Billy Cox* IT Manager *Old World Spices* bi...@oldworldspices.com 816.861.0400 x138 ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:325997 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Stung by HostMySite price increase?
How hard is it to switch from SQL Server to MySQL? That is a very open ended question. The answer to which could run the gamut from Not that hard at all to A freakin' nightmare. It all depends on how you are using SQL Sever. Do you use SSIS? Do you use any SQL or T-SQL that is particular to SQL Server's dialect? I moved a bunch of apps to MySQL a few years ago and it was fairly painless. But then again they were very Plain Jane SQL wise. There are plenty of tools out there to ease that sort of migration. EMS comes to mind as does Red Gate. http://sqlmanager.net/ http://www.red-gate.com HTH G! -- Gerald Guido http://www.myinternetisbroken.com To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. -- Thomas A. Edison ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:325998 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Stung by HostMySite price increase?
Strike the red gate reference IIRC they are pretty much SQL Server centric. Sorry about that... G! On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 11:43 AM, Gerald Guido gerald.gu...@gmail.comwrote: How hard is it to switch from SQL Server to MySQL? That is a very open ended question. The answer to which could run the gamut from Not that hard at all to A freakin' nightmare. It all depends on how you are using SQL Sever. Do you use SSIS? Do you use any SQL or T-SQL that is particular to SQL Server's dialect? I moved a bunch of apps to MySQL a few years ago and it was fairly painless. But then again they were very Plain Jane SQL wise. There are plenty of tools out there to ease that sort of migration. EMS comes to mind as does Red Gate. http://sqlmanager.net/ http://www.red-gate.com HTH G! -- Gerald Guido http://www.myinternetisbroken.com To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. -- Thomas A. Edison -- Gerald Guido http://www.myinternetisbroken.com To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. -- Thomas A. Edison ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:325999 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Stung by HostMySite price increase?
Yes the proc license is really the only way to go... The difficulty in switching depends greatly on your code. IT could be quite easy - or require rewriting every query. I recently helped a customer go from MySQL to MSSQL and I wrote a couple of posts on it. It will give you an idea of the type of difficulty you might encounter. http://www.coldfusionmuse.com/index.cfm/2009/7/13/MySQL.to.MSSQL http://www.coldfusionmuse.com/index.cfm/2009/7/23/data.truncation.mysql.to.m ssql Hope this helps (a little) Mark A. Kruger, CFG, MCSE (402) 408-3733 ext 105 www.cfwebtools.com www.coldfusionmuse.com www.necfug.com -Original Message- From: Billy Cox [mailto:bi...@oldworldspices.com] Sent: Friday, September 04, 2009 10:18 AM To: cf-talk Subject: Stung by HostMySite price increase? We recently got a note from HostMySite (now Hosting.com) telling us about a big price increase in SQL Server licensing. We've had a dedicated server with HMS for about a year and the mere thought of shopping for a new hosting provider makes me feel tired. Has anyone else encountered this? We have considered purchasing our own SQL Server licensing and I am wondering (predictably) whether a processor license is the only way to go for a web app database. How hard is it to switch from SQL Server to MySQL? -- *Billy Cox* IT Manager *Old World Spices* bi...@oldworldspices.com 816.861.0400 x138 ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:326000 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Stung by HostMySite price increase?
This link: http://www.microsoft.com/sqlserver/2008/en/us/pricing.aspx http://www.microsoft.com/sqlserver/2008/en/us/pricing.aspxMentions a Web edition for $15 per month ( per processor, not core I believe ), specifically targeted at web apps deployment. If you end up exploring that and find out that the licensing is just as simple as that please let us know. I've been repeatedly disappointed with MySQL and would love to migrate. Thanks. On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 10:06 AM, Mark Kruger mkru...@cfwebtools.com wrote: Yes the proc license is really the only way to go... The difficulty in switching depends greatly on your code. IT could be quite easy - or require rewriting every query. I recently helped a customer go from MySQL to MSSQL and I wrote a couple of posts on it. It will give you an idea of the type of difficulty you might encounter. http://www.coldfusionmuse.com/index.cfm/2009/7/13/MySQL.to.MSSQL http://www.coldfusionmuse.com/index.cfm/2009/7/23/data.truncation.mysql.to.m ssql Hope this helps (a little) Mark A. Kruger, CFG, MCSE (402) 408-3733 ext 105 www.cfwebtools.com www.coldfusionmuse.com www.necfug.com -Original Message- From: Billy Cox [mailto:bi...@oldworldspices.com] Sent: Friday, September 04, 2009 10:18 AM To: cf-talk Subject: Stung by HostMySite price increase? We recently got a note from HostMySite (now Hosting.com) telling us about a big price increase in SQL Server licensing. We've had a dedicated server with HMS for about a year and the mere thought of shopping for a new hosting provider makes me feel tired. Has anyone else encountered this? We have considered purchasing our own SQL Server licensing and I am wondering (predictably) whether a processor license is the only way to go for a web app database. How hard is it to switch from SQL Server to MySQL? -- *Billy Cox* IT Manager *Old World Spices* bi...@oldworldspices.com 816.861.0400 x138 ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:326001 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Stung by HostMySite price increase?
SQL Server Express isn't an option due to size limitations, although we may scale back from Standard edition to Workgroup. We chose Standard initially in order to take advantage of SSIS, but we haven't had the time to become proficient with SSIS and have moved our old DTS scheduled jobs to CF scheduled tasks. Judah McAuley wrote: Like most things, the answer to all your questions is it depends. If you have an app that doesn't have a big load, SQL Server Express might do fine for you. It is free but will only use 1 processor core, 1 GB of RAM and has a 4 GB database size limitation. Porting over to MySql can be very easy or pretty difficult. A lot depends on how you write your code. Do you use an ORM like Transfer or Reactor? If so, then you don't have to worry about the back end db as it is abstracted and the ORM will take care of the db-specific details for you. Do you use a lot of TSQL in your queries? If you have MSSQL-specific code strewn all over, like using SCOPE_IDENTITY() to get back a newly inserted autoincrement id, then you'll have more work to do to translate that over to MySQL-specific equivalents. I'd try setting your app up with MySql. See what breaks. Then try it with SQL Server Express and do some load testing. See what happens. That should give you some guidance. Cheers, Judah On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 8:18 AM, Billy Coxbi...@oldworldspices.com wrote: We recently got a note from HostMySite (now Hosting.com) telling us about a big price increase in SQL Server licensing. We've had a dedicated server with HMS for about a year and the mere thought of shopping for a new hosting provider makes me feel tired. Has anyone else encountered this? We have considered purchasing our own SQL Server licensing and I am wondering (predictably) whether a processor license is the only way to go for a web app database. How hard is it to switch from SQL Server to MySQL? -- *Billy Cox* IT Manager *Old World Spices* bi...@oldworldspices.com 816.861.0400 x138 ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:326003 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Stung by HostMySite price increase?
Yes the proc license is really the only way to go... The difficulty in switching depends greatly on your code. IT could be quite easy - or require rewriting every query. I recently helped a customer go from MySQL to MSSQL and I wrote a couple of posts on it. It will give you an idea of the type of difficulty you might encounter. http://www.coldfusionmuse.com/index.cfm/2009/7/13/MySQL.to.MSSQL http://www.coldfusionmuse.com/index.cfm/2009/7/23/data.truncation.mysql.to.m ssql I recently helped a customer go from MySQL to MSSQL and I wrote a couple of posts on it. It will give you an idea of the type of difficulty you might encounter. curious as to why anyone would want to switch from MySQL to MSSQL.. a quick look at mysql.com/customers showed the following: facebook feedster flickr fotolog and that was just in f also found craigslist, ebay, Google, istockphoto, ticketmaster, webtrends, yahoo and the list goes on and on... I found the switch fairly easy, definitely worth a look as its free to download. ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:326022 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Stung by HostMySite price increase?
There are about 1,000 reasons I can think of, but I only have limited experience with SQL Server ( just enough to observe these differences ): Less administration and maintenance. Less tuning necessary for pureformance. Exponentially superior performance out of the box. A single, superhero storage engine ( which itself has about 1,000 other benefits IMO ). Way more stable. Better IDE and tools ( the MySQL enterprise tools, at least the ones I've used, are all but a joke ). Significantly lower total cost of ownership for teams and companies without expert MySQL in-house knowledge that know how to solve all of MySQL's shortcomings without investing a lot of time in research and scavenger hunting ). Companies use open source ( and free ) software for a variety of reasons. Usually out of either stubbornness or a genetic allergy to Microsoft. Out of the companies you listed, I've only ever used Facebook, Flickr, Google, eBay, iStockPhoto, Ticketmaster, and Yahoo. I'm not saying this is a litmus test, but with the exception of maybe Yahoo ( but I haven't really used Yahoo THAT much ), I have always consciously THOUGHT as I used every single one of those other sites that their performance was pretty lackluster. Obviously we can only speculate as to what their bottlenecks are/were, how much a factor their scale actually is, etc, but I have felt, and noticed myself feeling, very disappointed with their software performance. Clearly MySQL is to blame ( kidding ). On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 7:48 PM, Andrew Grosset rushg...@yahoo.com wrote: Yes the proc license is really the only way to go... The difficulty in switching depends greatly on your code. IT could be quite easy - or require rewriting every query. I recently helped a customer go from MySQL to MSSQL and I wrote a couple of posts on it. It will give you an idea of the type of difficulty you might encounter. http://www.coldfusionmuse.com/index.cfm/2009/7/13/MySQL.to.MSSQL http://www.coldfusionmuse.com/index.cfm/2009/7/23/data.truncation.mysql.to.m ssql I recently helped a customer go from MySQL to MSSQL and I wrote a couple of posts on it. It will give you an idea of the type of difficulty you might encounter. curious as to why anyone would want to switch from MySQL to MSSQL.. a quick look at mysql.com/customers showed the following: facebook feedster flickr fotolog and that was just in f also found craigslist, ebay, Google, istockphoto, ticketmaster, webtrends, yahoo and the list goes on and on... I found the switch fairly easy, definitely worth a look as its free to download. ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:326027 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Stung by HostMySite price increase?
curious as to why anyone would want to switch from MySQL to MSSQL.. Because it has a much richer set of features, perhaps? Because it can do a lot of things that MySQL can't? a quick look at mysql.com/customers showed the following: facebook feedster flickr fotolog and that was just in f also found craigslist, ebay, Google, istockphoto, ticketmaster, webtrends, yahoo and the list goes on and on... That's nice, but irrelevant. You can find a list of companies using whatever product you can think of. There are lots of good reasons to use either product. Because company X uses it is not generally one of those reasons, unless your business needs are identical to company X. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:326026 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Stung by HostMySite price increase?
curious as to why anyone would want to switch from MySQL to MSSQL.. a quick look at mysql.com/customers showed the following: facebook feedster flickr fotolog Let's be very clear about the different versions of MySQL. Chances are when someone says they are using MySQL, they probably have the free version. I guarantee you facebook and company are paying the healthy 5 grand per server for the Enterprise version of MySQL which comes with unlimited tech support, GUI Admins and monitors, etc. The free version of MySQL comes with pretty much a set of online docs and a good luck. (Mind you I use MySQL-- the free version-- for my sites and like it very well). I'm guessing a lot of people who say they switched from MySQL to MSSQL probably went from the free version of MySQL to MSSQL. And if you're a .NET shop eyeing SQL Server Reporting Services, SQL Server Integration Services, and the rest of the MS koolaid, there could be a lot of very good reasons to switch. I really like MySQL (hey, it's FREE!), but if money were no object I would be using MSSQL for my personal sites in a heartbeat. Well, if my server wasn't Linux that is... :) ~Brad ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:326028 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Stung by HostMySite price increase?
Out of the companies you listed, I've only ever used Facebook, Flickr, Google, eBay, iStockPhoto, Ticketmaster, and Yahoo. I'm not saying this is a litmus test, but with the exception of maybe Yahoo ( but I haven't really used Yahoo THAT much ), I have always consciously THOUGHT as I used every single one of those other sites that their performance was pretty lackluster. Searching for the letter a on google. Results *1* - *100* of about *17,790,000,000* for *a*. (*0.16* seconds) But yeah That isn't a MySLQ query. Gmail can be sluggish but I think it is more of a JS engine issue more than anything else. Better IDE and tools ( the MySQL enterprise tools, at least the ones I've used, are all but a joke ). The MySQL software bundle is pretty crappy. I stopped using them years ago. I was never able to get the migration tools to work right. However, SQLyog, Toad for MySQL and the EMS tools rock IMHO. a genetic allergy to Microsoft. Now that is funny. But yeah, I moved to MySQL cuz it was free and I was a freelancer at the time. $5k is a lot of beer and donuts. But at the same time, I have been able to do things with DTS and SSIS that are pretty stunning. Like import a 25 meg MLS XML file in what I can only describe as being a blip. That was in 2003 though. I haven't looked at MySQL's tool set in that respect since then. G! -- Gerald Guido http://www.myinternetisbroken.com To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. -- Thomas A. Edison ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:326029 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
