Re: Another debate

2000-12-15 Thread Larry C. Lyons

>From what I understand, ZDNet allowed some of the vendors to come in
after the initial test results and tweak the output. Allaire was not one
of those. I am sure that given the opportunity to do that tweaking, CF
would be as fast, or possibly faster than PHP.

larry

-- 
Larry C. Lyons
ColdFusion/Web Developer
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8870 Rixlew Lane, Suite 201
Manassas, Virginia 20109-3795
tel: (703) 393-7930 x253
fax: (703) 393-2659
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Chaos, panic, and disorder - my work here is done.
--

Billy Cravens wrote:
> 
> That article isn't necessarily good ammo:
> 
> PHP pages/second: 47
> ColdFusion pages/second: 29
> 
> --
> Billy Cravens
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: Another debate

2000-12-14 Thread Billy Cravens

That article isn't necessarily good ammo:

PHP pages/second: 47
ColdFusion pages/second: 29

-- 
Billy Cravens
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


(According to the article)

Chasmo wrote:
> 
> Here's some ammo for you if the debate suddenly goes "unmoot."
> 
> ZDNet recently did comparisons of various scripting languages
> running on Linux and Win platforms. They compared performance,
> breadth of the API, etc.
> 
> ColdFusion won hands down, even winning ZDNet's pick over ASP
> on Win machines.
> 
> http://www.zdnet.com/enterprise/stories/linux/0,12249,2646052,00.html
> 
> Hope this helps.
> 
> I've come across this situations like Kelly's before. Everyone has
> their "pet" tool, and usually it's the result of them being familiar with
> that particular tool and unfamiliar with others. Even though I
> obviously prefer CF, I like to stay open-minded enough that I don't
> try to argue that CF is the only tool for a job.
> 
> There are several good middleware tools out there (and a few
> terrible ones--does anyone remember Lasso?), and the truth is that
> almost any of them can be used to create a great site. But in most
> cases there really isn't much reason to make a major switch
> between one or the other except for developer preference or
> stubborn-headedness as seems to apply in Kelly's case.
> 
> Charles Mohnike
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> > > - Original Message -
> > > From: Kelly Shepard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: CF-Talk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 12:14 PM
> > > Subject: Another debate
> > >
> > >
> > > > The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants
> > everyone
> > > to
> > > > switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to  PHP. We do
> > need
> > > > some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want
> > us
> > > > to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, he
> > wants
> > > a
> > > > complete switch.  Here is a glimpse into his last email:
> > > >
> > > > "It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and
> > > > weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not
> > an
> > > > option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing
> > > > perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary.
> > > > Especially in our industry (high-tech).
> > > >
> > > > The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point."
> > > >
> > > > Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment?  It
> > seems
> > > > that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have just
> > > been
> > > > lucky and not had any problems.  And, would you agree that in the
> > > corporate
> > > > IT department cf is "usually" not an option?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks in advance for any input.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> >
>
~~
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Re: Another debate

2000-12-14 Thread Jamie Keane

It has COM support on NT only.  The downside is if you wanted to migrate
servers from NT to Unix, you're kinda hosed if you were using COM objects.

Jamie

--
Jamie Keane
Programmer
SolutionMasters, Inc.
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704.563.5559 x 228  Voice
704.849.9291  Fax
-Original Message-
From: lsellers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: CF-Talk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thursday, December 14, 2000 2:08 AM
Subject: RE: Another debate


>
>> #2. Extensible into Java/COM/etc
>> #2 and #4 are not available in PHP, nor is formal support available
>
>Not that I really know what the hell I'm talking about as far as PHP goes,
>but I thought php4 had COM support(?).
>
>--min
>
>
>
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re: RE: Another debate

2000-12-14 Thread mikec

I have had employers call me in for  CF programmer position and start by telling me 
that CF is for  kids who like to play and that the real development  way is ASP
Usually when i produce some evidence to the contrary it shuts them up, but i never get 
the job :)

I had a new boss come in , he wanted everything redone in Perl, all 25 of our running 
Cf shopping carts. He didn't know Cf so he hated it,  he was making a simple databse 
application for a client and struggled for 2 weeks to create it and failed, finally i 
offered to do it and finished the project in , literally, 3 hours. That floored him, 
now he is a CF programmer.

Demonstrate the  powqer of CF and they cannot deny it.
Mostly i find people that raise security concerns are  doing some quick reading on the 
web to pretend they know something.
As all developers know, there is no language or method that has no potential for 
exploitation secutiy wize, good developers stay up with the latest issues and  act 
accordingly


#code.monkey#








Change is the only constant

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RE: Another debate

2000-12-14 Thread mikec





> ** Original Subject: RE: Another debate
> ** Original Sender: "Braver, Ben:" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> ** Original Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 15:06:09 -0500

> ** Original Message follows... 

>
> 
> Well, for one thing, your boss needs to brush up on his English, and learn
> the difference between "mute" and "moot" 
> 
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From:   Kelly Shepard [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent:   Wednesday, December 13, 2000 9:14 AM
> > To: CF-Talk
> > Subject:Another debate
> > 
> > The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants everyone
> > to
> > switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to  PHP. We do need
> > some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want us
> > to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, he wants
> > a
> > complete switch.  Here is a glimpse into his last email:
> > 
> > "It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and
> > weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an
> > option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing
> > perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary.
> > Especially in our industry (high-tech).
> > 
> > The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point."
> > 
> > Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment?  It seems
> > that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have just
> > been
> > lucky and not had any problems.  And, would you agree that in the
> > corporate
> > IT department cf is "usually" not an option?
> > 
> > Thanks in advance for any input.
> > 
> > 
> >
>
~~
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Re: Another debate

2000-12-14 Thread Joe Sheble aka Wizaerd

All of this boils down to opinion and personal choice.  You say CF is a
great technology and PHP is a good technology, while I say PHP is a great
technology and CF is only a good technology... either way, we could argue
this for hours, days, weeks, years and neither one of us (not you
specifically, the general 'us' associated with mailing lists) would change
the others mind...

PHP has many advantages over CF, but they would only be advantages to
somebody would could take advantage of them.

 Original Message -
From: "DeVoil, Nick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "CF-Talk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2000 2:19 AM
Subject: RE: Another debate


> For a developer, PHP has *one* big advantage over CF -
> user-defined functions.
>
> With CF5 that advantage just disappeared.
>
> BTW, you *can* write DBMS-independent code with PHP,
> if you use PHPLIB. But you don't have all of
> CF's cacheing features built in.
>
> PHP is a good technology. CF is a great technology.
>
> $0.02
>
> Nick.
>
>
> **
> Information in this email is confidential and may be privileged.
> It is intended for the addressee only. If you have received it in error,
> please notify the sender immediately and delete it from your system.
> You should not otherwise copy it, retransmit it or use or disclose its
> contents to anyone.
> Thank you for your co-operation.
> **
>
>
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RE: Another debate

2000-12-14 Thread JustinMacCarthy


This is actually accurate. There is a module for PHP , which give a common
interface to several DBs.
Justin

>One big difference: in PHP you will have to write database-vendor
>specific code. The code to use Sybase is different than SQLServer
>is different than Oracle, etc.
>If portability is important, then that will be a problem.


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RE: Another debate

2000-12-14 Thread DeVoil, Nick

For a developer, PHP has *one* big advantage over CF -
user-defined functions.

With CF5 that advantage just disappeared.

BTW, you *can* write DBMS-independent code with PHP,
if you use PHPLIB. But you don't have all of
CF's cacheing features built in.

PHP is a good technology. CF is a great technology.

$0.02

Nick.


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It is intended for the addressee only. If you have received it in error,
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Thank you for your co-operation.
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RE: Another debate

2000-12-13 Thread lsellers


> #2. Extensible into Java/COM/etc
> #2 and #4 are not available in PHP, nor is formal support available

Not that I really know what the hell I'm talking about as far as PHP goes,
but I thought php4 had COM support(?).

--min


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RE: Another debate

2000-12-13 Thread Steve Pierce

Uhhh, I have to take exception with this, especially with Cold Fusion.

you wrote:
>> so where's the additional cost? Upgrades are, after all,
>> strictly optional. Nobody says you have to buy them.

We have found a very serious bug in CF 4. Allaire's solution, upgrade to
4.5. Even though the bug is also in 4.5. So yes, sometimes companies like
Allaire tell you you have to buy the upgrade if you want to keep using the
software.

 - Steve




-Original Message-
From: Bruce Heerssen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 1:32 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: Another debate


Sounds like you have a problem on your hands, and it's not with the
technology.
The problem is illustrated by the last line in your excerpt, "The need to
deliberate the issue further is a mute point." Sounds like his mind is
closed.
Not a good thing IMO. You know, the job market still seems pretty good
despite
the beating dot-coms have taken in the last few months. Hint, hint.

If you want to fight this, you might research how much time that the
redesigns
will take, bearing in mind the need to ramp up on the new technology first.
Then
compare that with the time that could have been spent working on other
projects
with your current tool box. Aslo compare the average difference in
development
time between the two. Think in terms of lost productivity (buzzword alert,
good
for pointy-hairs). You might also ask him to clarify his position on the
lack of
security in CF and ask for concrete examples said problems, probably they
have
been addressed, but the boss doesn't know that because he pays more
attention to
PHP. As for cost, there is more to consider than the cost of a liscense,
among
which is development time, performance, and scalability. Overwhelm him with
facts and figures, they're hard to dispute. Maybe he'll give in.

I wish I could be there to hear him defend his position. Could be
entertaining,
esp. the part about cost. You already own the necessary liscenses
(presumably),
so where's the additional cost? Upgrades are, after all, strictly optional.
Nobody says you have to buy them.

Good luck.

-- Bruce

> -Original Message-
> From: Kelly Shepard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 11:14 AM
> To: CF-Talk
> Subject: Another debate
>
>
> The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants everyone
to
> switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to  PHP. We do need
> some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want us
> to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, he wants
a
> complete switch.  Here is a glimpse into his last email:
>
> "It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and
> weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an
> option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing
> perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary.
> Especially in our industry (high-tech).
>
> The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point."
>
> Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment?  It seems
> that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have just
been
> lucky and not had any problems.  And, would you agree that in the
corporate
> IT department cf is "usually" not an option?
>
> Thanks in advance for any input.
>
>
>
~~
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Re: Another debate

2000-12-13 Thread Michael She

I'm a university co-op student at one of the most budget minded companies I 
have ever seen, and CF was THE option for web development for us.  I did 
research on many different app server platforms and CF came out on top because:
#1. CHEAP
#2. Extensible into Java/COM/etc
#3. Quick to build apps
#4. Really nice IDE

#2 and #4 are not available in PHP, nor is formal support available 
either.  PHP/Open Source is nice for personal use and companies with lot of 
IT resources, however in the case of the place I work at, we needed a 
proven technology and CF was the choice.


At 10:14 AM 12/13/00 -0700, Kelly Shepard you wrote:

>Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment?  It seems
>that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have just been
>lucky and not had any problems.  And, would you agree that in the corporate
>IT department cf is "usually" not an option?
>
>Thanks in advance for any input.

-- 
Michael She
I m a g i n e   C o m m u n i c a t i o n s
Company E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Personal E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
ICQ UIN: #243466
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Re: Another debate

2000-12-13 Thread Chasmo

Here's some ammo for you if the debate suddenly goes "unmoot."  

ZDNet recently did comparisons of various scripting languages 
running on Linux and Win platforms. They compared performance, 
breadth of the API, etc.  

ColdFusion won hands down, even winning ZDNet's pick over ASP 
on Win machines.  

http://www.zdnet.com/enterprise/stories/linux/0,12249,2646052,00.html  

Hope this helps.  

I've come across this situations like Kelly's before. Everyone has 
their "pet" tool, and usually it's the result of them being familiar with 
that particular tool and unfamiliar with others. Even though I 
obviously prefer CF, I like to stay open-minded enough that I don't 
try to argue that CF is the only tool for a job.  

There are several good middleware tools out there (and a few 
terrible ones--does anyone remember Lasso?), and the truth is that 
almost any of them can be used to create a great site. But in most 
cases there really isn't much reason to make a major switch 
between one or the other except for developer preference or 
stubborn-headedness as seems to apply in Kelly's case.  

Charles Mohnike
[EMAIL PROTECTED]




> > - Original Message -
> > From: Kelly Shepard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: CF-Talk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 12:14 PM
> > Subject: Another debate
> >
> >
> > > The new boss has arrived in my department and of course 
he wants
> everyone
> > to
> > > switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to  
PHP. We
> > > do
> need
> > > some other strengths in our department for those clients 
who don't
> > > want
> us
> > > to host their application or don't have cf on their server, 
but, he
> wants
> > a
> > > complete switch.  Here is a glimpse into his last email:
> > >
> > > "It could be argued that both technologies have their 
strengths and
> > > weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, 
CF is usually
> > > not
> an
> > > option due to cost and security problems. I realize that 
changing
> > > perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but 
necessary.
> > > Especially in our industry (high-tech).
> > >
> > > The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point."
> > >
> > > Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems 
comment?  It
> seems
> > > that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we 
have
> > > just
> > been
> > > lucky and not had any problems.  And, would you agree 
that in the
> > corporate
> > > IT department cf is "usually" not an option?
> > >
> > > Thanks in advance for any input.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> 
~~~
~~~
>   Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the 
official book at
> http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm
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Re: Another debate

2000-12-13 Thread David Cummins

Call me Machiavellian... but I agree.

This guy sounds like he's unknowingly pushing your company off a cliff. Grab the
valuables and jump! You might as well get the most out of it you can,
considering he's decimating your job security.

Switching technologies on existing projects almost never helps the client.

David Cummins

"Milks, Jim" wrote:
> 
> In my opinion, he heard that the other CTOs on the Golf Course said CF was
> "junior" and, heaven forbid, costs money! This is a common problem. Don't
> resist. You're skill set will be greatly improved, and he will be
> accountable for the longer development times and issues with a great, but
> not yet mature technology in PHP.
> 
> Jim
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 12:30 PM
> To: CF-Talk
> Subject: Re: Another debate
> 
> As long as you write good code and follow all the security notes from the
> Allaire security zone, there is no security problem. From the tone and
> message of the email, he doesn't really care to hear the truth about it.
> To be honest, PHP has its strengths, but its still a script based language
> rather than a tag based one which means its slower to write than CF when
> integrating into HTML and doing output. Its DB work isn't all to good and
> the error handling is almost non-existent. If you look on the PHP site,
> there's actually a rather informative comparison of the two on some
> features.
> If the boss wants to listen and add PHP to your companies skill set, then
> I'd agree with him. If he just wants to dump all of the CF stuff for PHP,
> then argue with him about it. Bring your proofs and back it up with the fact
> that CF is accepted by the corporate industry while PHP isn't (yet).
> 
> > The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants everyone
> to
> > switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to  PHP. We do need
> > some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want us
> > to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, he wants
> a
> > complete switch.  Here is a glimpse into his last email:
> >
> > "It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and
> > weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an
> > option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing
> > perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary.
> > Especially in our industry (high-tech).
> >
> > The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point."
> >
> > Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment?  It seems
> > that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have just
> been
> > lucky and not had any problems.  And, would you agree that in the
> corporate
> > IT department cf is "usually" not an option?
> >
> > Thanks in advance for any input.

~~
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Re: Another debate

2000-12-13 Thread Peter Theobald

If it's cost he's worried about, he probably isn't aware that CF runs very well on 
Linux. You can even run a slightly older version of Sybase on Linux for free.

At 02:36 PM 12/13/00 -0500, Peter Theobald wrote:
>One big difference: in PHP you will have to write database-vendor specific code. The 
>code to use Sybase is different than SQLServer is different than Oracle, etc.
>If portability is important, then that will be a problem.
>
>At 12:29 PM 12/13/00 -0500, Michael Dinowitz wrote:
>>As long as you write good code and follow all the security notes from the
>>Allaire security zone, there is no security problem. From the tone and
>>message of the email, he doesn't really care to hear the truth about it.
>>To be honest, PHP has its strengths, but its still a script based language
>>rather than a tag based one which means its slower to write than CF when
>>integrating into HTML and doing output. Its DB work isn't all to good and
>>the error handling is almost non-existent. If you look on the PHP site,
>>there's actually a rather informative comparison of the two on some
>>features.
>>If the boss wants to listen and add PHP to your companies skill set, then
>>I'd agree with him. If he just wants to dump all of the CF stuff for PHP,
>>then argue with him about it. Bring your proofs and back it up with the fact
>>that CF is accepted by the corporate industry while PHP isn't (yet).
>>
>>
>>> The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants everyone
>>to
>>> switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to  PHP. We do need
>>> some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want us
>>> to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, he wants
>>a
>>> complete switch.  Here is a glimpse into his last email:
>>>
>>> "It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and
>>> weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an
>>> option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing
>>> perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary.
>>> Especially in our industry (high-tech).
>>>
>>> The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point."
>>>
>>> Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment?  It seems
>>> that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have just
>>been
>>> lucky and not had any problems.  And, would you agree that in the
>>corporate
>>> IT department cf is "usually" not an option?
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance for any input.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
~~
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RE: Another debate

2000-12-13 Thread BORKMAN Lee

Well, you just have to love those "mute points".

Actually, my experience is that PHP is not normally an option in the
corporate IT department, due to the low cost and (perceived) support
problems.

Still, it all goes down well on your CV.

best of luck,
Lee (Bjork) Borkman
http://bjork.net ColdFusion Tags by Bjork



From: Kelly Shepard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]


The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants everyone to
switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to  PHP. 

Here is a glimpse into his last email:

"It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and
weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an
option due to cost and security problems. 


The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point."




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Re: Another debate PHP v CF

2000-12-13 Thread Jon Hall

The best advice I have seen. Ditto

jon
- Original Message -
From: "Steve Pierce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "CF-Talk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 1:56 PM
Subject: RE: Another debate PHP v CF


> Kelly,
>
> your boss wrote:
> >> switch from ... cold fusion to  PHP.
> >> The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point.
>
> Forget it, your boss said he doesn't want to debate it, he wants to switch
> from CF to PHP. Just switch. Look at all the new training classes you will
> get to attend learning new skills. It helps you become more marketable and
> worth more to the company and to outside companies looking to hire. The
> first person to jump on board is going to go to the most classes, get the
> best training, the newest books and the best computer. I am not saying be
a
> suck-up, but if they want PHP, then do PHP.
>
> You have to look at this as a core value decision. If this is a core value
> issue that compromises your ethics, then quit. You can't stay at a company
> and violate your core values.
>
> For example core values would be you believe there is fraud; or the guy is
> taking kickbacks from vendors; or there is stock manipulation that is
> occurring. If this is happening you have to bail. But if it isn't a core
> value issue take it as a new opportunity to make yourself more marketable.
>
> Cover your ass, write a letter to your boss, and make it a nice one saying
> that you think switching from CF may cost the company a lot of money. But
> that if he believes switching to PHP is better for the company and will
> shorten delivery times of projects, then you support that decision. Keep
it
> short and to just one page.
>
> Don't fight it, just do it and move on. Can you imagine a developer that
> knows PHP and CF. Pretty good credentials that makes it easier to demand
> more money. This is a win for you, don't worry about it.
>
>  - Steve
>
> Steve Pierce, HDL
> "Co-Location starting $99 per month, no setup fee"
> (734) 482-9682 | mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://HDL.com
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Kelly Shepard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 12:14 PM
> To: CF-Talk
> Subject: Another debate
>
>
> The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants everyone
to
> switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to  PHP. We do need
> some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want us
> to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, he wants
a
> complete switch.  Here is a glimpse into his last email:
>
> "It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and
> weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an
> option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing
> perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary.
> Especially in our industry (high-tech).
>
> The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point."
>
> Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment?  It seems
> that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have just
been
> lucky and not had any problems.  And, would you agree that in the
corporate
> IT department cf is "usually" not an option?
>
> Thanks in advance for any input.
>
~~
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http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm

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RE: Another debate

2000-12-13 Thread Craig Newitt

Guys it sounds like the new man is on a mission.  Sounds like it may be the
head of the company that want the change and have brought him into he the
hatch-it man - my 2 cents worth

-Original Message-
From: Peter Theobald [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, 14 December 2000 5:28 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: Another debate


In the corporate IT department, PHP is usually less of an option than CF.
Also if a "corporate IT department" can't afford CFServer, then they have
other problems, like how to run a web site on used Commodore-64s.

"The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point."
I'd be careful about arguing this. It sounds like he strongly doesn't want
to debate the facts, no matter who is right.

At 10:14 AM 12/13/00 -0700, Kelly Shepard wrote:
>The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants everyone
to
>switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to  PHP. We do need
>some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want us
>to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, he wants a
>complete switch.  Here is a glimpse into his last email:
>
>"It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and
>weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an
>option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing
>perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary.
>Especially in our industry (high-tech).
>
>The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point."
>
>Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment?  It seems
>that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have just been
>lucky and not had any problems.  And, would you agree that in the corporate
>IT department cf is "usually" not an option?
>
>Thanks in advance for any input.
>
>
>
~~
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RE: Another debate

2000-12-13 Thread Troy Hiltbrand

I would definately take a look at this e-mail about the eWeek article and
the eWeek article.  You might want to anonymously slip the article on his
desk too.

A recent issue of E-Week (Oct. 30 2000 Vol. 17 #44) did a comparison of 4
programming languages for the purpose of creating dynamic sites.

They tested .cfm, .asp, .jsp and .php applications on similar systems.

The jist of the articles is as follows:

Speed:
CFM - 29 pages/second
JSP - 13 pages/second
ASP - 43 pages/second
PHP - 47 pages/second

Grading API, Back-End Connectivity, Cost (Developer Time), Cost (Price),
Installation, Performance, Portability and Tools:
CFM - 3 A's, 5 B's
JSP - 3 A's, 4 C's, 1 D
ASP - 2 A's, 4 B's, 1 C, 1 D
PHP - 2 A's, 2 B's, 3 C's, 1 D

Although the 4 1/2 page reports/articles did well in showing strengths and
weaknesses of each item, the overall winner for most productive choice was
(no surprise) CFM.

Here is a link to PART of the articles.
http://www.zdnet.com/eweek/stories/general/0,11011,2646051,00.html

The grading is shown here:
http://www.zdnet.com/eweek/stories/general/0,11011,2646423,00.html

Be sure to look at the other links listed under "In this report". I found it
pretty interesting and informative.

-Original Message-
From: Kelly Shepard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 10:14 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Another debate


The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants everyone to
switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to  PHP. We do need
some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want us
to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, he wants a
complete switch.  Here is a glimpse into his last email:

"It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and
weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an
option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing
perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary.
Especially in our industry (high-tech).

The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point."

Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment?  It seems
that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have just been
lucky and not had any problems.  And, would you agree that in the corporate
IT department cf is "usually" not an option?

Thanks in advance for any input.
~~
Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at 
http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm

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RE: Another debate

2000-12-13 Thread Michael Kear

I know this point doesnt help you except in terms of moral support, but in
our parlance, your boss is a DICKHEAD.  Sadly, this opens a whole can of
worms,  because no matter how much you'd like to, it wouldn't be a great
career move to go into his office and say "boss all the guys on the
CF-Talk list think you're a dickhead."

However, if he is so ill-educated in this area of expertise, he'll be
ill-informed in other areas too, and his tenure as your boss might be
pretty short lived.  If this is what you think, your best strategy might
be just to keep your head down, mouth shut and wait him out.  I employed
this strategy myself not all that long ago, and sure enough my boss got
his ass kicked out, and lo and behold, we had a ready-made scapegoat for
anything that went wrong.  "Yeah I know, but that's the way Robert wanted
it." Just make sure his name is firmly on all the paperwork for any
stupid decisions, so there's plenty of ammunition for his boss to fire
him, and plenty of excuses later on if you want them.

Think about what this boss wants to do.  He's not deciding whether or not
to buy ColdFusion.  HE ALREADY HAS IT!   And he's wanting to throw it out
and rebuild the site.  His predecessor has already spent most of the
investment he's complaining about and he has the expertise he needs
already in house.  So the only major expense with ColdFusion that would go
away  under his plan is the maintenance/subscription fees from Allaire.
It shouldn't be too hard to show how that cost is far less than you'd pay
maintaining a PHP system.

Sorry, pal but you're in for a rough ride over the next little while, as
your boss either wins this or goes through the anguish of showing the
world what a fool he is and getting fired.  I've been there - so have many
of us - and you have my sympathy.

Cheers,
Mike Kear
Windsor, NSW, Australia.
AFP Web Development







> The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he
> wants everyone to switch from the awesome and all mighty cold
> fusion to  PHP. We do need some other strengths in our
> department for those clients who don't want us to host their
> application or don't have cf on their server, but, he wants a
> complete switch. Here is a glimpse into his last email:
>
> "It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths
> and weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is
> usually not an option due to cost and security problems. I realize
> that changing perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult,
> but necessary. Especially in our industry (high-tech). 
>
> The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point."
>
> Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems
> comment? It seems that alliare is pretty good about getting patches
> up - or we have just been lucky and not had any problems. And,
> would you agree that in the corporate IT department cf is
> "usually" not an option?  



~~
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Re: Another debate

2000-12-13 Thread Chasmo

Here's some ammo for you if the debate suddenly goes "unmoot."

ZDNet recently did comparisons of various scripting languages 
running on Linux and Win platforms. They compared performance, 
breadth of the API, etc. 

ColdFusion won hands down, even winning ZDNet's pick over ASP 
on Win machines.

http://www.zdnet.com/enterprise/stories/linux/0,12249,2646052,00.html

Hope this helps. 

I've come across this situations like Kelly's before. Everyone has 
their "pet" tool, and usually it's the result of them being familiar with 
that particular tool and unfamiliar with others. Even though I 
obviously prefer CF, I like to stay open-minded enough that I don't 
try to argue that CF is the only tool for a job. 

There are several good middleware tools out there (and a few 
terrible ones--does anyone remember Lasso?), and the truth is that 
almost any of them can be used to create a great site. But in most 
cases there really isn't much reason to make a major switch 
between one or the other except for developer preference or 
stubborn-headedness as seems to apply in Kelly's case.

Charles Mohnike
[EMAIL PROTECTED]




> > - Original Message -
> > From: Kelly Shepard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: CF-Talk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 12:14 PM
> > Subject: Another debate
> >
> >
> > > The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants
> everyone
> > to
> > > switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to  PHP. We do
> need
> > > some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want
> us
> > > to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, he
> wants
> > a
> > > complete switch.  Here is a glimpse into his last email:
> > >
> > > "It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and
> > > weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not
> an
> > > option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing
> > > perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary.
> > > Especially in our industry (high-tech).
> > >
> > > The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point."
> > >
> > > Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment?  It
> seems
> > > that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have just
> > been
> > > lucky and not had any problems.  And, would you agree that in the
> > corporate
> > > IT department cf is "usually" not an option?
> > >
> > > Thanks in advance for any input.
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
~~
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Re: Another debate PHP v CF

2000-12-13 Thread Billy Cravens

Really gotta agree with you Steve.  Personally, I disagree with the way
the boss is implementing things... however, I think we should all think
of ourselves as "web developers" and not "ColdFusion developers" in
order to make more money, be better "programmers", and all around more
diverse.  I've been exposed to several languages, and each has a
different way of thinking.  For example, VBScript typically is
approached and coded differently than CFML.  However, I've found that
such cross-disciplinary thinking allows me to approach each language
differently than is typical for that particular language, and my problem
solving skills have increased as a result.  It allows me to expand
beyond a "(insert language here) disciple" and become a "problem solver
implementing solutions ideal for the particular problem at hand".  

In your shoes, I'd be annoyed.  I'd stick with it, learn PHP, and then
take advantage of my new toolset... (of course, taking advantage of
training just to get a higher paying job elsewhere is a bit unethical,
so I by no mean advocate it  ;)

-- 
Billy Cravens
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


Steve Pierce wrote:
> 
> Kelly,
> 
> your boss wrote:
> >> switch from ... cold fusion to  PHP.
> >> The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point.
> 
> Forget it, your boss said he doesn't want to debate it, he wants to switch
> from CF to PHP. Just switch. Look at all the new training classes you will
> get to attend learning new skills. It helps you become more marketable and
> worth more to the company and to outside companies looking to hire. The
> first person to jump on board is going to go to the most classes, get the
> best training, the newest books and the best computer. I am not saying be a
> suck-up, but if they want PHP, then do PHP.
> 
> You have to look at this as a core value decision. If this is a core value
> issue that compromises your ethics, then quit. You can't stay at a company
> and violate your core values.
> 
> For example core values would be you believe there is fraud; or the guy is
> taking kickbacks from vendors; or there is stock manipulation that is
> occurring. If this is happening you have to bail. But if it isn't a core
> value issue take it as a new opportunity to make yourself more marketable.
> 
> Cover your ass, write a letter to your boss, and make it a nice one saying
> that you think switching from CF may cost the company a lot of money. But
> that if he believes switching to PHP is better for the company and will
> shorten delivery times of projects, then you support that decision. Keep it
> short and to just one page.
> 
> Don't fight it, just do it and move on. Can you imagine a developer that
> knows PHP and CF. Pretty good credentials that makes it easier to demand
> more money. This is a win for you, don't worry about it.
> 
>  - Steve
> 
> Steve Pierce, HDL
> "Co-Location starting $99 per month, no setup fee"
> (734) 482-9682 | mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://HDL.com
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Kelly Shepard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 12:14 PM
> To: CF-Talk
> Subject: Another debate
> 
> The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants everyone to
> switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to  PHP. We do need
> some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want us
> to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, he wants a
> complete switch.  Here is a glimpse into his last email:
> 
> "It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and
> weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an
> option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing
> perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary.
> Especially in our industry (high-tech).
> 
> The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point."
> 
> Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment?  It seems
> that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have just been
> lucky and not had any problems.  And, would you agree that in the corporate
> IT department cf is "usually" not an option?
> 
> Thanks in advance for any input.
>
~~
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http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm

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RE: Another debate PHP v CF

2000-12-13 Thread Stephen R. Cassady

[
First off, let me say that I love (love love love) CF, and it's my baby of
choice for development (see: http://www.tallylist.com and
http://www.spankmag.com).

But, here,  you really don't have a choice. You can either sit in the mud,
complain, and sabotage the change - or you can work with the guy. He has a
different point of view, but he was hired to lead the department (that
doesn't make him competent, but it does grant him the authority). So it is
his view to lead the department forward.

What you're looking for is ways to offer suggestions or thoughts that may be
receptive to him. Ask about past projects he's been involved with  utilizing
PHP, or other technologies. Ask about his background in development, if
there's interesting things you should be on the lookout for. Ask if he has a
vision for 2 to 3 years - where this department may be. Find out where it's
going and why before you buck the system.

This isn't ass kissing. Ass kissing is rolling over and saying abuse me.
What it is though is how to survive transition, how to position yourself
during transition, and how to maintain all your options. Plus, maybe the IT
department can actually produce product during this phase (in CF or PHP).

The person was hired for a reason. So, give that person time. On the other
hand - you can question that persons ability by asking about past and future
projects and goals - and make evaluations based on those answers.

Stephen R. Cassady
President, Ububik new media
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.ububik.com



<--- from email: --->
"It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and
weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an
option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing
perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary.
Especially in our industry (high-tech).
The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point."


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Re: Another debate

2000-12-13 Thread stas

That kind of attitude is completely lame. How is he going to account for the
cost of learning PHP?

I would take this opportunity and learn PHP while getting paid for it, and
see how the new boss works out.

The e-mail doesn't make sense, what does "...some other strengths in our
department for those clients who don't want us to host their application or
don't have cf on their server..." have to do with "...corporate IT
department..."?



- Original Message -
From: "Gavin Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "CF-Talk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 1:26 PM
Subject: RE: Another debate


>
> wow, glad i don't have to deal with e-mails like that
>
> i think a better question would be, even if cf was shown to be more
> scalable, manageable, faster, better for the [insert new fandangled
acronym
> here] business. Would he take consideration to it?
>
> Since he did say further discussion of this is pointless
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Kelly Shepard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 11:14 AM
> To: CF-Talk
> Subject: Another debate
>
>
> The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants everyone
to
> switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to  PHP. We do need
> some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want us
> to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, he wants
a
> complete switch.  Here is a glimpse into his last email:
>
> "It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and
> weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an
> option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing
> perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary.
> Especially in our industry (high-tech).
>
> The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point."
>
> Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment?  It seems
> that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have just
been
> lucky and not had any problems.  And, would you agree that in the
corporate
> IT department cf is "usually" not an option?
>
> Thanks in advance for any input.
>
~~
Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at 
http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm

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Re: Another debate

2000-12-13 Thread Jamie Keane

Above all-out evangelisation, the only thing that could stand up against the
IT boss in question is solid facts.  Present speed test results,
testimonials, and other basically-factual data.  Ask him why is it, exactly,
that he considers CF a security risk and PHP not one.  If the boss is at
least somewhat reasonable, he'll at least hear your concerns.  If he's
completely unresponsive, then it really doesn't reflect well on his ability
to manage, does it?

--
Jamie Keane
Programmer
SolutionMasters, Inc.
9111 Monroe Rd., Suite 100
Charlotte, NC  28270
www.solutionmasters.com
704.563.5559 x 228  Voice
704.849.9291  Fax
-Original Message-
From: Kevin Schmidt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: CF-Talk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 4:47 PM
Subject: Re: Another debate


>Tell your boss to go out to the garage and use the head puller to pull his
>head out of his ass.  CF is far above PHP in my mind and why would you want
>to tell all of your developers hey forget what you know and learn this new
>technology.  I could understand if you were all COBOL programmers and
wanted
>to learn something new but CF is a great technology and as I said far
>superior in my mind.
>
>
>- Original Message -
>From: "Kevin Schmidt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: "Kevin Schmidt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 12:39 PM
>Subject: Fw: Another debate
>
>
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: Kelly Shepard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: CF-Talk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 12:14 PM
>> Subject: Another debate
>>
>>
>> > The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants
>everyone
>> to
>> > switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to  PHP. We do
>need
>> > some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want
>us
>> > to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, he
>wants
>> a
>> > complete switch.  Here is a glimpse into his last email:
>> >
>> > "It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and
>> > weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not
>an
>> > option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing
>> > perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary.
>> > Especially in our industry (high-tech).
>> >
>> > The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point."
>> >
>> > Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment?  It
>seems
>> > that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have just
>> been
>> > lucky and not had any problems.  And, would you agree that in the
>> corporate
>> > IT department cf is "usually" not an option?
>> >
>> > Thanks in advance for any input.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>
~~
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Re: Another debate

2000-12-13 Thread David E. Crawford

Let's just hope that Mr. Boss isn't also reading this list. Bottom line is
that this is a tough situation.  I had it happen to me where my boss told me
to dump CF in favor of ASP.  I didn't fight it, but I also wasn't there that
much longer either.

Dave


~~
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Re: Another debate

2000-12-13 Thread Jennifer

At 10:14 AM 12/13/00 -0700, you wrote:
>The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants everyone to
>switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to  PHP. We do need
>some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want us
>to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, he wants a
>complete switch.  Here is a glimpse into his last email:
>
>"It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and
>weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an
>option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing
>perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary.
>Especially in our industry (high-tech).
>
>The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point."

Frankly speaking, your new manager is not open to becoming informed on an 
issue. If he is this way with CF and states ahead of time that trying to 
prove him wrong is moot (which is what he means although it's definitely 
not what he says), he will be this way about other things. If you try to 
bring up a security issue that he doesn't know of, he won't listen to you. 
If you find a neat new way to do something, he does not want you to 
implement it. He has just proven that in his opinion, anything you say is 
worthless. That is not an attitude that I would take kindly to working 
under. He has already shown both ignorance and unwillingness to become 
informed. To be perfectly honest, if I were you I would confront him about 
his attitude and tell him that if he is unwilling to follow the advice of 
informed members of his staff that I have no intention of working with him. 
If he isn't willing to listen to you he does not value you as an employee 
and you will eventually want to quit (if you don't get fired first).

This is a bigger issue than someone being biassed in favor of a certain 
technology based on incorrect assumptions; this is about someone 
disrespecting the people who are supposed to do the work he is managing. Of 
course, I would also quote his letter and tell him that you also realize 
that changing perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but that 
his perception of ColdFusion is unfounded and his old habit of 
pre-emptively ignoring the opinions of an informed staff will cause him to 
make bad decisions based on incorrect assumptions. I have seen managers get 
fired for saying things like this and in IT, an attitude like this can hurt 
a company extremely badly.


~~
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RE: Another debate

2000-12-13 Thread Stephen R. Cassady


First off, let me say that I love (love love love) CF, and it's my baby of
choice for development (see: http://www.tallylist.com and
http://www.spankmag.com).

But, here,  you really don't have a choice. You can either sit in the mud,
complain, and sabotage the change - or you can work with the guy. He has a
different point of view, but he was hired to lead the department (that
doesn't make him competent, but it does grant him the authority). So it is
his view to lead the department forward.

What you're looking for is ways to offer suggestions or thoughts that may be
receptive to him. Ask about past projects he's been involved with  utilizing
PHP, or other technologies. Ask about his background in development, if
there's interesting things you should be on the lookout for. Ask if he has a
vision for 2 to 3 years - where this department may be. Find out where it's
going and why before you buck the system.

This isn't ass kissing. Ass kissing is rolling over and saying abuse me.
What it is though is how to survive transition, how to position yourself
during transition, and how to maintain all your options. Plus, maybe the IT
department can actually produce product during this phase (in CF or PHP).

The person was hired for a reason. So, give that person time. On the other
hand - you can question that persons ability by asking about past and future
projects and goals - and make evaluations based on those answers.

Stephen R. Cassady
President, Ububik new media
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.ububik.com




<--- from email: --->
"It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and
weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an
option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing
perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary.
Especially in our industry (high-tech).
The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point."


~~
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RE: Another debate

2000-12-13 Thread Katie Bessiere

robust!

(sorry, had to add it)

-Original Message-
From: Gavin Myers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 1:26 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: Another debate



wow, glad i don't have to deal with e-mails like that

i think a better question would be, even if cf was shown to be more
scalable, manageable, faster, better for the [insert new fandangled acronym
here] business. Would he take consideration to it? 

Since he did say further discussion of this is pointless

-Original Message-
From: Kelly Shepard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 11:14 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Another debate


The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants everyone to
switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to  PHP. We do need
some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want us
to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, he wants a
complete switch.  Here is a glimpse into his last email:

"It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and
weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an
option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing
perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary.
Especially in our industry (high-tech).

The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point."

Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment?  It seems
that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have just been
lucky and not had any problems.  And, would you agree that in the corporate
IT department cf is "usually" not an option?

Thanks in advance for any input.
~~
Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at 
http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm

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RE: Another debate

2000-12-13 Thread Hal Helms

I think this may be a Freudian slip: he really does mean "mute" -- as in "I
don't want to talk about it; my mind's already made up."

Hal Helms
== See www.ColdFusionTraining.com  for info on "Best Practices with
ColdFusion & Fusebox" training, Jan 22-25 ==


-Original Message-
From: Braver, Ben: [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 1:02 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: Another debate



Well, for one thing, your boss needs to brush up on his English, and learn
the difference between "mute" and "moot"


> -Original Message-
> From: Kelly Shepard [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 9:14 AM
> To:   CF-Talk
> Subject:  Another debate
>
> The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants everyone
> to
> switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to  PHP. We do need
> some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want us
> to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, he wants
> a
> complete switch.  Here is a glimpse into his last email:
>
> "It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and
> weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an
> option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing
> perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary.
> Especially in our industry (high-tech).
>
> The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point."
>
> Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment?  It seems
> that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have just
> been
> lucky and not had any problems.  And, would you agree that in the
> corporate
> IT department cf is "usually" not an option?
>
> Thanks in advance for any input.
>
>
>
~~
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http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm

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RE: Another debate

2000-12-13 Thread Phoeun Pha

who cares, just ask for a raise, 4 Christmas bonuses, and free parking - All
for learning PHP.  It's not your company anyways, it's your [insert ignorant
here] boss's













-Original Message-
From: Kevin Schmidt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 1:48 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: Another debate


Tell your boss to go out to the garage and use the head puller to pull his
head out of his ass.  CF is far above PHP in my mind and why would you want
to tell all of your developers hey forget what you know and learn this new
technology.  I could understand if you were all COBOL programmers and wanted
to learn something new but CF is a great technology and as I said far
superior in my mind.


- Original Message -
From: "Kevin Schmidt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Kevin Schmidt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 12:39 PM
Subject: Fw: Another debate


>
> - Original Message -
> From: Kelly Shepard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: CF-Talk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 12:14 PM
> Subject: Another debate
>
>
> > The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants
everyone
> to
> > switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to  PHP. We do
need
> > some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want
us
> > to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, he
wants
> a
> > complete switch.  Here is a glimpse into his last email:
> >
> > "It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and
> > weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not
an
> > option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing
> > perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary.
> > Especially in our industry (high-tech).
> >
> > The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point."
> >
> > Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment?  It
seems
> > that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have just
> been
> > lucky and not had any problems.  And, would you agree that in the
> corporate
> > IT department cf is "usually" not an option?
> >
> > Thanks in advance for any input.
> >
> >
> >
~~
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http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm

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RE: Another debate

2000-12-13 Thread Allan Pichler

Your new boss obviously doesn't worry about development time since he
chooses PHP over CF, and the points about security issues is FR
out. Obviously your new boss need some professional (mental) help!

Allan Pichler
Machine Dreams Inc.

-Original Message-
From: Kelly Shepard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 9:14 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Another debate


The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants everyone to
switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to  PHP. We do need
some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want us
to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, he wants a
complete switch.  Here is a glimpse into his last email:

"It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and
weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an
option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing
perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary.
Especially in our industry (high-tech).

The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point."

Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment?  It seems
that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have just been
lucky and not had any problems.  And, would you agree that in the corporate
IT department cf is "usually" not an option?

Thanks in advance for any input.
~~
Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at 
http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm

Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/
Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists



Re: Another debate

2000-12-13 Thread Peter Theobald

One big difference: in PHP you will have to write database-vendor specific code. The 
code to use Sybase is different than SQLServer is different than Oracle, etc.
If portability is important, then that will be a problem.

At 12:29 PM 12/13/00 -0500, Michael Dinowitz wrote:
>As long as you write good code and follow all the security notes from the
>Allaire security zone, there is no security problem. From the tone and
>message of the email, he doesn't really care to hear the truth about it.
>To be honest, PHP has its strengths, but its still a script based language
>rather than a tag based one which means its slower to write than CF when
>integrating into HTML and doing output. Its DB work isn't all to good and
>the error handling is almost non-existent. If you look on the PHP site,
>there's actually a rather informative comparison of the two on some
>features.
>If the boss wants to listen and add PHP to your companies skill set, then
>I'd agree with him. If he just wants to dump all of the CF stuff for PHP,
>then argue with him about it. Bring your proofs and back it up with the fact
>that CF is accepted by the corporate industry while PHP isn't (yet).
>
>
>> The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants everyone
>to
>> switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to  PHP. We do need
>> some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want us
>> to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, he wants
>a
>> complete switch.  Here is a glimpse into his last email:
>>
>> "It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and
>> weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an
>> option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing
>> perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary.
>> Especially in our industry (high-tech).
>>
>> The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point."
>>
>> Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment?  It seems
>> that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have just
>been
>> lucky and not had any problems.  And, would you agree that in the
>corporate
>> IT department cf is "usually" not an option?
>>
>> Thanks in advance for any input.
>>
>>
>>
>
~~
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RE: Another debate - absolute rubbish.

2000-12-13 Thread JustinMacCarthy

Most "security issue" in ColdFusion are problems with IIS not ColdFusion or
problems in standard security. There have been a couple of exceptions (the
Expression Evaluator and samples mostly), but most are not the fault of CF.

If he is comparing PHP on Unix to CF on NT, it's not really a fair
comparison, is it?

As for cost. The cost of a few days extra time programming nearly covers the
application.

Why don't you ask him about these security issues??? What are they ? Is he
talking about webserver or system security? Or CF ?

And before I get into a flame war here, I do use PHP ,and Perl, C/C++, Java
(JRun is great BTW )and CF others , NT and *nix. I prefer do prefer PHP for
some stuff  (can't wait for cfscript to get better ), and with Zope it's
very fast but CF is cool too, and I've been using it since CF V1.5ish with
success. Why stop now?

~J

>>However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an
>> option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing
>> perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary.
>> Especially in our industry (high-tech).
>>
>> The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point."


~~
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RE: Another debate

2000-12-13 Thread ron

> The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants
> everyone to
> switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to  PHP. We do need
> some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want us
> to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but,
> he wants a
> complete switch.  Here is a glimpse into his last email:
>
> "It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and
> weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an
> option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing
> perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary.
> Especially in our industry (high-tech).
>
> The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point."
>
> Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment?

He sounds like a real piece of work. Tell him that until he learns how to
spell "moot" that he shouldn't be making middleware recommendations. :)

-ron




~~
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Re: Another debate

2000-12-13 Thread Joe Sheble aka Wizaerd

I'm currently going through the same thing, except my new IT director's
pushing for ASP and Java... ick...

If he'd suggest PHP, I'd be all for it since I know PHP intimately, (and
personally prefer it over CF, but that's strictly my opinion)

- Original Message -
From: "Michael Dinowitz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "CF-Talk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 10:29 AM
Subject: Re: Another debate


> As long as you write good code and follow all the security notes from the
> Allaire security zone, there is no security problem. From the tone and
> message of the email, he doesn't really care to hear the truth about it.
> To be honest, PHP has its strengths, but its still a script based language
> rather than a tag based one which means its slower to write than CF when
> integrating into HTML and doing output. Its DB work isn't all to good and
> the error handling is almost non-existent. If you look on the PHP site,
> there's actually a rather informative comparison of the two on some
> features.
> If the boss wants to listen and add PHP to your companies skill set, then
> I'd agree with him. If he just wants to dump all of the CF stuff for PHP,
> then argue with him about it. Bring your proofs and back it up with the
fact
> that CF is accepted by the corporate industry while PHP isn't (yet).
>
>
> > The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants
everyone
> to
> > switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to  PHP. We do
need
> > some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want
us
> > to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, he
wants
> a
> > complete switch.  Here is a glimpse into his last email:
> >
> > "It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and
> > weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not
an
> > option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing
> > perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary.
> > Especially in our industry (high-tech).
> >
> > The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point."
> >
> > Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment?  It
seems
> > that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have just
> been
> > lucky and not had any problems.  And, would you agree that in the
> corporate
> > IT department cf is "usually" not an option?
> >
> > Thanks in advance for any input.
> >
> >
> >
>
~~
Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at 
http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm

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Re: Another debate

2000-12-13 Thread Jamie Keane

Well, the two are really different critters.  It could be said that PHP is
more secure since it is open source, therefore flaws can, in theory, be
discovered (and hopefully patched) quicker.  As for other discussion along
the lines of "CF is a better platform because it's easier to write in", it
really depends on your style of programming.  If you're most comfortable
dealing with logical pseudo-extensions to an HTML-style programming system,
of course CF is for you.  It's tag-based to ease the transition between
static HTML and dynamically-generated templates.  PHP, OTOH, is very
reminiscent of Perl, so if your department is strong in Perl you'll love
PHP.

The down side of PHP is its fairly non-existant error handling capabilities
and lack of DB abstraction.  You will have to be familiar with different
function sets to use different DBs.  If you're a non-programmer, it is a bit
trickier to learn, since you'll have to work with creating file pointers and
whatnot on occasion.  And PHP doesn't include Verity or any other nifty
toys, so you're on your own.  On the plus side, PHP currently supports
user-defined functions, which makes for very structured, elegant code.

I haven't tried out PHP's session support, however, so I can't comment on
that.  Chances are, though, that CF has a better implementation, though,
simply because CF has had session support longer.

Also, what web server/OS are you running?  That's also a big part of the
picture, and arguably more important than the application server you're
using.

Jamie
(best tool for the job, et cetera, et cetera)

--
Jamie Keane
Programmer
SolutionMasters, Inc.
9111 Monroe Rd., Suite 100
Charlotte, NC  28270
www.solutionmasters.com
704.563.5559 x 228  Voice
704.849.9291  Fax
-Original Message-
From: Kelly Shepard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: CF-Talk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 1:04 PM
Subject: Another debate


>The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants everyone
to
>switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to  PHP. We do need
>some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want us
>to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, he wants a
>complete switch.  Here is a glimpse into his last email:
>
>"It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and
>weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an
>option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing
>perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary.
>Especially in our industry (high-tech).
>
>The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point."
>
>Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment?  It seems
>that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have just been
>lucky and not had any problems.  And, would you agree that in the corporate
>IT department cf is "usually" not an option?
>
>Thanks in advance for any input.
>
>
>
~~
Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at 
http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm

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RE: Another debate PHP v CF

2000-12-13 Thread Steve Pierce

Kelly,

your boss wrote:
>> switch from ... cold fusion to  PHP.
>> The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point.

Forget it, your boss said he doesn't want to debate it, he wants to switch
from CF to PHP. Just switch. Look at all the new training classes you will
get to attend learning new skills. It helps you become more marketable and
worth more to the company and to outside companies looking to hire. The
first person to jump on board is going to go to the most classes, get the
best training, the newest books and the best computer. I am not saying be a
suck-up, but if they want PHP, then do PHP.

You have to look at this as a core value decision. If this is a core value
issue that compromises your ethics, then quit. You can't stay at a company
and violate your core values.

For example core values would be you believe there is fraud; or the guy is
taking kickbacks from vendors; or there is stock manipulation that is
occurring. If this is happening you have to bail. But if it isn't a core
value issue take it as a new opportunity to make yourself more marketable.

Cover your ass, write a letter to your boss, and make it a nice one saying
that you think switching from CF may cost the company a lot of money. But
that if he believes switching to PHP is better for the company and will
shorten delivery times of projects, then you support that decision. Keep it
short and to just one page.

Don't fight it, just do it and move on. Can you imagine a developer that
knows PHP and CF. Pretty good credentials that makes it easier to demand
more money. This is a win for you, don't worry about it.

 - Steve

Steve Pierce, HDL
"Co-Location starting $99 per month, no setup fee"
(734) 482-9682 | mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://HDL.com



-Original Message-
From: Kelly Shepard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 12:14 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Another debate


The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants everyone to
switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to  PHP. We do need
some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want us
to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, he wants a
complete switch.  Here is a glimpse into his last email:

"It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and
weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an
option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing
perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary.
Especially in our industry (high-tech).

The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point."

Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment?  It seems
that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have just been
lucky and not had any problems.  And, would you agree that in the corporate
IT department cf is "usually" not an option?

Thanks in advance for any input.
~~
Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at 
http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm

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RE: Another debate

2000-12-13 Thread Sean Daniels

> The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point."

Ouch. Does he/she mean "moot" point perhaps?

I feel for you. 

- Sean


  Sean Daniels
  Manager, Engineering
  Marketplace Technologies
  (t) 207.439.6030
  (c) 207.332.6340 


http://www.dealforce.com
http://www.dealstream.com
http://www.mergernetwork.com




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RE: Another debate

2000-12-13 Thread Milks, Jim

In my opinion, he heard that the other CTOs on the Golf Course said CF was
"junior" and, heaven forbid, costs money! This is a common problem. Don't
resist. You're skill set will be greatly improved, and he will be
accountable for the longer development times and issues with a great, but
not yet mature technology in PHP.

Jim

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 12:30 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: Another debate


As long as you write good code and follow all the security notes from the
Allaire security zone, there is no security problem. From the tone and
message of the email, he doesn't really care to hear the truth about it.
To be honest, PHP has its strengths, but its still a script based language
rather than a tag based one which means its slower to write than CF when
integrating into HTML and doing output. Its DB work isn't all to good and
the error handling is almost non-existent. If you look on the PHP site,
there's actually a rather informative comparison of the two on some
features.
If the boss wants to listen and add PHP to your companies skill set, then
I'd agree with him. If he just wants to dump all of the CF stuff for PHP,
then argue with him about it. Bring your proofs and back it up with the fact
that CF is accepted by the corporate industry while PHP isn't (yet).


> The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants everyone
to
> switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to  PHP. We do need
> some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want us
> to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, he wants
a
> complete switch.  Here is a glimpse into his last email:
>
> "It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and
> weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an
> option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing
> perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary.
> Especially in our industry (high-tech).
>
> The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point."
>
> Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment?  It seems
> that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have just
been
> lucky and not had any problems.  And, would you agree that in the
corporate
> IT department cf is "usually" not an option?
>
> Thanks in advance for any input.
>
>
>
~~
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RE: Another debate

2000-12-13 Thread Cameron Childress

Sound like your "new boss" hasn't ever used CF, or bothered to even research
the validity of his claims.  PHP is a good addition to your skillset, but
throwing out all the CF experience and knowledge in your department and
forcing everyone to start at square one with learning PHP is not a smart
decision at all.  I would say the same, by the way, about anyone who came
into an all PHP department and said the same about instantly and
unilaterally switching to CF for all projects.

I really don't have the whole story, and don't know your situation, but
depending on the rest of the big picture, I'd quietly start putting together
a resume just in case you need it.  I would consider what you describe as a
bad omen and indicative of a dicator style of management.

While you're at it, maybe your whole department should start speaking French
rather than English...  Yeah that's just as stupid...

-Cameron


Cameron Childress
ElliptIQ Inc.
p.770.460.7277.232
f.770.460.0963

> -Original Message-
> From: Kelly Shepard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 12:14 PM
> To: CF-Talk
> Subject: Another debate
>
>
> The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants
> everyone to
> switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to  PHP. We do need
> some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want us
> to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but,
> he wants a
> complete switch.  Here is a glimpse into his last email:
>
> "It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and
> weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an
> option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing
> perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary.
> Especially in our industry (high-tech).
>
> The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point."
>
> Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment?  It seems
> that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have
> just been
> lucky and not had any problems.  And, would you agree that in the
> corporate
> IT department cf is "usually" not an option?
>
> Thanks in advance for any input.
>
>
>
~~
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Re: Another debate

2000-12-13 Thread Kevin Schmidt

Tell your boss to go out to the garage and use the head puller to pull his
head out of his ass.  CF is far above PHP in my mind and why would you want
to tell all of your developers hey forget what you know and learn this new
technology.  I could understand if you were all COBOL programmers and wanted
to learn something new but CF is a great technology and as I said far
superior in my mind.


- Original Message -
From: "Kevin Schmidt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Kevin Schmidt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 12:39 PM
Subject: Fw: Another debate


>
> - Original Message -
> From: Kelly Shepard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: CF-Talk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 12:14 PM
> Subject: Another debate
>
>
> > The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants
everyone
> to
> > switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to  PHP. We do
need
> > some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want
us
> > to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, he
wants
> a
> > complete switch.  Here is a glimpse into his last email:
> >
> > "It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and
> > weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not
an
> > option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing
> > perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary.
> > Especially in our industry (high-tech).
> >
> > The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point."
> >
> > Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment?  It
seems
> > that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have just
> been
> > lucky and not had any problems.  And, would you agree that in the
> corporate
> > IT department cf is "usually" not an option?
> >
> > Thanks in advance for any input.
> >
> >
> >
~~
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Re: Another debate

2000-12-13 Thread Peter Theobald

In the corporate IT department, PHP is usually less of an option than CF. Also if a 
"corporate IT department" can't afford CFServer, then they have other problems, like 
how to run a web site on used Commodore-64s.

"The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point."
I'd be careful about arguing this. It sounds like he strongly doesn't want to debate 
the facts, no matter who is right.

At 10:14 AM 12/13/00 -0700, Kelly Shepard wrote:
>The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants everyone to
>switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to  PHP. We do need
>some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want us
>to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, he wants a
>complete switch.  Here is a glimpse into his last email:
>
>"It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and
>weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an
>option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing
>perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary.
>Especially in our industry (high-tech).
>
>The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point."
>
>Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment?  It seems
>that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have just been
>lucky and not had any problems.  And, would you agree that in the corporate
>IT department cf is "usually" not an option?
>
>Thanks in advance for any input.
>
>
>
~~
Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at 
http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm

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RE: Another debate

2000-12-13 Thread Bruce Heerssen

Sounds like you have a problem on your hands, and it's not with the technology.
The problem is illustrated by the last line in your excerpt, "The need to
deliberate the issue further is a mute point." Sounds like his mind is closed.
Not a good thing IMO. You know, the job market still seems pretty good despite
the beating dot-coms have taken in the last few months. Hint, hint.

If you want to fight this, you might research how much time that the redesigns
will take, bearing in mind the need to ramp up on the new technology first. Then
compare that with the time that could have been spent working on other projects
with your current tool box. Aslo compare the average difference in development
time between the two. Think in terms of lost productivity (buzzword alert, good
for pointy-hairs). You might also ask him to clarify his position on the lack of
security in CF and ask for concrete examples said problems, probably they have
been addressed, but the boss doesn't know that because he pays more attention to
PHP. As for cost, there is more to consider than the cost of a liscense, among
which is development time, performance, and scalability. Overwhelm him with
facts and figures, they're hard to dispute. Maybe he'll give in.

I wish I could be there to hear him defend his position. Could be entertaining,
esp. the part about cost. You already own the necessary liscenses (presumably),
so where's the additional cost? Upgrades are, after all, strictly optional.
Nobody says you have to buy them.

Good luck.

-- Bruce

> -Original Message-
> From: Kelly Shepard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 11:14 AM
> To: CF-Talk
> Subject: Another debate
>
>
> The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants everyone to
> switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to  PHP. We do need
> some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want us
> to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, he wants a
> complete switch.  Here is a glimpse into his last email:
>
> "It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and
> weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an
> option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing
> perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary.
> Especially in our industry (high-tech).
>
> The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point."
>
> Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment?  It seems
> that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have just been
> lucky and not had any problems.  And, would you agree that in the corporate
> IT department cf is "usually" not an option?
>
> Thanks in advance for any input.
>
>
>
~~
Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at 
http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm

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Re: Another debate

2000-12-13 Thread Gregory Harris

Further more, re-coding any app entails its own set of problems

1) First we retrain an entire IT dept in PHP (or sicker still, lay them off
and hire newbies in a veteran dept.)

2) Now we turn these newbies loose and say (ok, convert your expert, well
written CF Apps, into the PHP language we barely know in this dept.)

I picture this as taking a well running Toyota Camry, and replacing its
engine with that of a Ford Pinto...

This amounts to IT suicide, frankly I wonder if this decision is mostly
politically motivated rather than sound judgement.  I would fight this to
the last man or suffer the consequences.

Gregory Harris
Web Developer
Stirling Bridge Group LLC

- Original Message -
From: "Kelly Shepard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "CF-Talk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 9:14 AM
Subject: Another debate


> The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants everyone
to
> switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to  PHP. We do need
> some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want us
> to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, he wants
a
> complete switch.  Here is a glimpse into his last email:
>
> "It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and
> weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an
> option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing
> perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary.
> Especially in our industry (high-tech).
>
> The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point."
>
> Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment?  It seems
> that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have just
been
> lucky and not had any problems.  And, would you agree that in the
corporate
> IT department cf is "usually" not an option?
>
> Thanks in advance for any input.
>
>
>
~~
Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at 
http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm

Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/
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RE: Another debate

2000-12-13 Thread Dave Watts

> The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he 
> wants everyone to switch from the awesome and all mighty cold 
> fusion to  PHP. We do need some other strengths in our 
> department for those clients who don't want us to host their 
> application or don't have cf on their server, but, he wants a
> complete switch. Here is a glimpse into his last email:
> 
> "It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths 
> and weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is 
> usually not an option due to cost and security problems. I realize 
> that changing perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, 
> but necessary. Especially in our industry (high-tech).
> 
> The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point."
> 
> Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems 
> comment? It seems that alliare is pretty good about getting patches 
> up - or we have just been lucky and not had any problems. And, 
> would you agree that in the corporate IT department cf is 
> "usually" not an option?

There are no significant security problems that are CF-specific, as long as
you don't deploy the sample code on your servers. There are lots of security
problems with CF applications, caused by the failure of developers to filter
input from the browser. Those problems exist with PHP applications, and ASP
applications, and any other kind of web applications.

Most of the security problems that Allaire notifies people about are
actually IIS security problems, as far as I can tell.

As for CF's availability within corporate IT, I'd guess that it's much more
accepted than PHP, at least "officially". Most IT directors are a bit leery
of using open-source solutions. They like to have someone to call when
things go wrong.

PHP is nice, though, and kind of fun, but it's a bit more difficult than CF,
and for most business applications doesn't offer anything that CF doesn't.
As a bit of trivia, PHP used to be quite often referred to as the "poor
man's Cold Fusion" back when it stood for "Personal Home Page".

On an unrelated note, it's "moot point", not "mute point".

Finally, I'm sorry to hear that this is what your new boss is like. It's
always sad to see things like this - it would be just as bad if you were all
using PHP and he came in and said "we're switching everything to CF". You
might be able to reason with him, but in my experience there's usually
nothing you can do with these types. Good luck, though.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/
voice: (202) 797-5496
fax: (202) 797-5444

~~
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Re: Another debate

2000-12-13 Thread Gregory Harris

Read Greg's Rules of web development, I'll start with the just created rule
#1:

"Security is not the program in as much as the people who are using the
program"

also:

"what you get is what you pay for"

IMHO Cold Fusion delivers an easy to use, yet powerful development platform.
At a fairly decent price tag.  When you are programming in cold fusion, it
is always good practice to consider the implications of what you are doing,
and plan accordingly.  For instance, if you are using CFFILE to use an
upload, consider it suicide to use CFEXECUTE right after it on the same
file(that's the quickest example I can think of).  However you get the idea.
Your mind must at all times be thinking "what could a user do, if I
programmed this?" and you'll never have a problem with security.

Lots of programming lanugages in their time have had bugs documented, some
of them security related.  I'm not sure about PHP's track record, but I'm
sure that it's not perfect either.  Remember PHP is also a relative newcomer
to the scene of enterprise application development, and its security is not
quite proven yet.

In short, be
Gregory Harris
Web Developer
Stirling Bridge Group LLC

- Original Message -
From: "Kelly Shepard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "CF-Talk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 9:14 AM
Subject: Another debate


> The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants everyone
to
> switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to  PHP. We do need
> some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want us
> to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, he wants
a
> complete switch.  Here is a glimpse into his last email:
>
> "It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and
> weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an
> option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing
> perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary.
> Especially in our industry (high-tech).
>
> The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point."
>
> Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment?  It seems
> that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have just
been
> lucky and not had any problems.  And, would you agree that in the
corporate
> IT department cf is "usually" not an option?
>
> Thanks in advance for any input.
>
>
>
~~
Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at 
http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm

Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/
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RE: Another debate

2000-12-13 Thread Dylan Bromby

PHP is pretty good, but the comments about security problems with CF
specifically I disagree with. I've used CF since Jan 96. I've built high
traffic shopping carts as well as mission-critical intranet/extranet types
of applications with very sensitive data. I was at autobytel.com for just
under 2 years. In my experience, network security has been by far the
paramount issue. I've never had a CF-related security issue. And I think
I've avoided most by following Allaire's security bulletin suggestions.

As far as I know (and I could be wrong) PHP is "open". Who will you get
support from? I've only had to use it once in my "CF career" but at least
you can call Allaire who won't charge unless the problem is resolved.

The cost of good software and service is nothing compared to the cost of
losing business over poorly planned technology choices.

Good luck.

-Original Message-
From: Kelly Shepard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 9:14 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Another debate


The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants everyone to
switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to  PHP. We do need
some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want us
to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, he wants a
complete switch.  Here is a glimpse into his last email:

"It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and
weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an
option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing
perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary.
Especially in our industry (high-tech).

The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point."

Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment?  It seems
that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have just been
lucky and not had any problems.  And, would you agree that in the corporate
IT department cf is "usually" not an option?

Thanks in advance for any input.
~~
Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at 
http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm

Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/
Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists



RE: Another debate

2000-12-13 Thread Gavin Myers


wow, glad i don't have to deal with e-mails like that

i think a better question would be, even if cf was shown to be more
scalable, manageable, faster, better for the [insert new fandangled acronym
here] business. Would he take consideration to it? 

Since he did say further discussion of this is pointless

-Original Message-
From: Kelly Shepard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 11:14 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Another debate


The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants everyone to
switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to  PHP. We do need
some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want us
to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, he wants a
complete switch.  Here is a glimpse into his last email:

"It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and
weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an
option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing
perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary.
Especially in our industry (high-tech).

The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point."

Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment?  It seems
that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have just been
lucky and not had any problems.  And, would you agree that in the corporate
IT department cf is "usually" not an option?

Thanks in advance for any input.
~~
Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at 
http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm

Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/
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RE: Another debate

2000-12-13 Thread Braver, Ben:


Well, for one thing, your boss needs to brush up on his English, and learn
the difference between "mute" and "moot" 


> -Original Message-
> From: Kelly Shepard [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 9:14 AM
> To:   CF-Talk
> Subject:  Another debate
> 
> The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants everyone
> to
> switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to  PHP. We do need
> some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want us
> to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, he wants
> a
> complete switch.  Here is a glimpse into his last email:
> 
> "It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and
> weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an
> option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing
> perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary.
> Especially in our industry (high-tech).
> 
> The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point."
> 
> Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment?  It seems
> that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have just
> been
> lucky and not had any problems.  And, would you agree that in the
> corporate
> IT department cf is "usually" not an option?
> 
> Thanks in advance for any input.
> 
> 
>
~~
Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at 
http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm

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Re: Another debate

2000-12-13 Thread Stephen M Aylor

Dimple his Chad & Demand a hand count

Steve

> 
> Thanks in advance for any input.



~~
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Re: Another debate

2000-12-13 Thread Greg Wolfinger

I think the security probelsm lie more in Microsoft's IIS and the NT OS than
the CF Server.  Allaire always sends out alerts about security updates even
if they are not for CF Servers, but something that relates to CF.

PHP is a neat language, however it still isn't developed enough and also the
learning curve is enough for your boss to be considered a complete and total
moron.  If he wants to make his whole company spend a few months learning
PHP and converting all exsisting apps to PHP, tell him to go for it.  Also,
I dont think that the database connectivity is as powerful.

Greg.

ps. if he starts to ramble on about php and mysql tell him just because you
read webmonkey doesnt mean it should applied, especially in a corporate
environment.  I see PHP and MySQL as more of a home user solution.
- Original Message -
From: "Kelly Shepard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "CF-Talk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 12:14 PM
Subject: Another debate


> The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants everyone
to
> switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to  PHP. We do need
> some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want us
> to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, he wants
a
> complete switch.  Here is a glimpse into his last email:
>
> "It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and
> weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an
> option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing
> perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary.
> Especially in our industry (high-tech).
>
> The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point."
>
> Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment?  It seems
> that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have just
been
> lucky and not had any problems.  And, would you agree that in the
corporate
> IT department cf is "usually" not an option?
>
> Thanks in advance for any input.
>
>
>
~~
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Re: Another debate

2000-12-13 Thread Stephen M Aylor

Sounds like - if your not inclined to get on the PHP bandwagon - its time to
polish the ol resume'




- Original Message -
From: "Kelly Shepard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "CF-Talk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 9:14 AM
Subject: Another debate


> The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants everyone
to
> switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to  PHP. We do need
> some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want us
> to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, he wants
a
> complete switch.  Here is a glimpse into his last email:
>
> "It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and
> weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an
> option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing
> perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary.
> Especially in our industry (high-tech).
>
> The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point."
>
> Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment?  It seems
> that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have just
been
> lucky and not had any problems.  And, would you agree that in the
corporate
> IT department cf is "usually" not an option?
>
> Thanks in advance for any input.
>
>
>
~~
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http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm

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RE: Another debate

2000-12-13 Thread John Stanley

The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute (<---should be moot)
point.

I don't really have any suggestions other than it sounds like he might have
dealt with PHP before, and therefore is prejudiced against CF. You and I
know that it is plenty secure. Plenty of corporations are serving cold
fusion pages to run their Intranets, Extranets and secure e-commerce
applications.


~~
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Re: Another debate

2000-12-13 Thread Michael Dinowitz

As long as you write good code and follow all the security notes from the
Allaire security zone, there is no security problem. From the tone and
message of the email, he doesn't really care to hear the truth about it.
To be honest, PHP has its strengths, but its still a script based language
rather than a tag based one which means its slower to write than CF when
integrating into HTML and doing output. Its DB work isn't all to good and
the error handling is almost non-existent. If you look on the PHP site,
there's actually a rather informative comparison of the two on some
features.
If the boss wants to listen and add PHP to your companies skill set, then
I'd agree with him. If he just wants to dump all of the CF stuff for PHP,
then argue with him about it. Bring your proofs and back it up with the fact
that CF is accepted by the corporate industry while PHP isn't (yet).


> The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants everyone
to
> switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to  PHP. We do need
> some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want us
> to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, he wants
a
> complete switch.  Here is a glimpse into his last email:
>
> "It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and
> weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an
> option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing
> perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary.
> Especially in our industry (high-tech).
>
> The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point."
>
> Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment?  It seems
> that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have just
been
> lucky and not had any problems.  And, would you agree that in the
corporate
> IT department cf is "usually" not an option?
>
> Thanks in advance for any input.
>
>
>
~~
Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at 
http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm

Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/
Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists