[CITTERN] frank ... rant ... charango ...
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[CITTERN] recent threads
Howdy Folks, I'm on the road at the moment and don't have regular access to the internet so I haven't been able to keep up with the recent threads - I haven't even been able to read everything yet! Two things I wanted to say: RE Ron's (beautiful) cittern: Has anyone mentioned fake labels? A few years in Evora we saw several ancient citterns, many of which were 19th and 20th century fakes, and many of them were similar to the instruments shown in one of the early links supplied in the thread (not very helpful, I know...). I have to agree that the binding on Ron's cittern is rather bright, but I'm not at all sure that that is decisive for dating it. RE Pedro's theory: There is an essay in Portuguese published in 1936 that also claims that the Portuguese guitar is based on the earlier cittern in Portugal. I'm sorry I can't give you the bibliographic details just now - maybe someone else can, or perhaps it's already been mentioned. Doc mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: recent threads
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 11:00:13 -0400 To: cittern@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [CITTERN] recent threads Howdy Folks, I'm on the road at the moment and don't have regular access to the internet so I haven't been able to keep up with the recent threads - I haven't even been able to read everything yet! Two things I wanted to say: RE Ron's (beautiful) cittern: Has anyone mentioned fake labels? I implied it, but then I don't know if that particular maker would have been worth the effort, a coveted name or something. The fact that the instrument sat for 25 years unsold in a California music store might indicate that others had their suspicions too? I don't know. The instrument is good looking, overall, I agree. It's just the date that puzzles me. A few years in Evora we saw several ancient citterns, many of which were 19th and 20th century fakes, and many of them were similar to the instruments shown in one of the early links supplied in the thread (not very helpful, I know...). I have to agree that the binding on Ron's cittern is rather bright, but I'm not at all sure that that is decisive for dating it. I have in the last few days seen some early A-type Gibson mandolins (c.1905-10) with bright white top binding, only half the thickness of Ron's, but bright white on the outer edge nonetheless. I've yet to see solid, thick, all white (verses a sandwich of strips of alternating material or colors, white/black/white or herringbone or something) on any other early instrument, and I've also yet to see such heavy all white binding surrounding _both_ top and back (on such a supposed early instrument). The sides decoration (the viny scrolly inlay) still looks out of place to me, and the end pins still look odd too. I have now seen many Waldzithers (at least) with a similar spikey-pointy sun-ray rosette inlay, but they could be from the 20's (sellers seem think think _all_ Waldzithers are c.1900) BTW, I stumbled upon your PDF re English Guitars in Colonial America the other day. Very interesting, nice work. I also found the recorded incidents of bass and tenor viol instructors therein illuminating. Thanks Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: recent threads
Doc: Very interesting. I wondered what had ahppened to you. For my own part, I am not disputing Pedro; I'm very interested in this. AND, I'm certainly not trying to defend the notion of the British style guittar being the sole influence on the Portuguese. I think it very unlikely that there would not have been any similar instruments in Portugal, considering that the mandolin, laud, bandurria, and vrious other small, double strung instruments proliferated throughout continental Europe..possibly more so thanin Britain at the time. It merely piques my curiosity. Tthe fact that the earlier Portugues Gittarras are so very similar to the English guittars to me suggests that yes, the instrument imported from England had an influence on instruments already in use in Portugal. As in all our discussions abour the evolutionof citterns in general, provenence and evidence is crucial to supporting any theory. Brad [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Howdy Folks, I'm on the road at the moment and don't have regular access to the internet so I haven't been able to keep up with the recent threads - I haven't even been able to read everything yet! Two things I wanted to say: RE Ron's (beautiful) cittern: Has anyone mentioned fake labels? A few years in Evora we saw several ancient citterns, many of which were 19th and 20th century fakes, and many of them were similar to the instruments shown in one of the early links supplied in the thread (not very helpful, I know...). I have to agree that the binding on Ron's cittern is rather bright, but I'm not at all sure that that is decisive for dating it. RE Pedro's theory: There is an essay in Portuguese published in 1936 that also claims that the Portuguese guitar is based on the earlier cittern in Portugal. I'm sorry I can't give you the bibliographic details just now - maybe someone else can, or perhaps it's already been mentioned. Doc mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html - How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. --
[CITTERN] Re: Pedro Cabrals answer
Several more at Art Robb's site: http://www.art-robb.co.uk/EG.html I just looked again at Ron's Preston. http://fernandezmusic.com/Images/Andrade%26Preston.gif That really is a substantial chuck of metal! I do see how it would impact the sound. Wonder why the Portuguese neglected to copy that most important bit from the English models (if that's indeed where they got their inspiration from). Do you have a picture of yours I could see? (Ron's is in pretty bad shape). Mine is in fairly good shape, unrestored as far as I can tell except for some peculiar woodwork adding an odd shaped headstock in place of the Venetian gondola-end normally used. http://www.maxwellplace.demon.co.uk/pandemonium/guittar.html I have updated the text, but not the photos. My instrument now has some good bone string pins, kindly made by a London-based enthusiast for me, along with a replacement pearwood bridge which I have not been able to use mainly because before doing so, I would need to get the neck carefully straightened, to allow a lower action. It has a slight twist which effectively means the bridge has to have an angle, and the action must be rather higher than could be possible. Because I have changed computers and web accounts etc since this - free - work of craftsmanship done for me, I have lost the name and details of the restorer-luthier who did this, as I would wish to credit him for the help. The dilemma with this instrument is that the overall condition is actually so good (unlike Rob MacKillop's amazingly war-scarred Smith Broderip!) and the build quality looks 'drawing room' rather than functional; it could be expertly restored and French polished to a condition almost as new, and it would not be impossible to replate the mechanism and clean the rose, and make a correct headstock. It would not take much work or expense to see what a brand new English guittar at the end of the 18th century looked like hanging in the shop, and the woods are lovely, as you can see. Yet this is entirely the wrong thing to do and it's best just to leave it as it is! David Thanks David. Nice to see some examples of variation among makers, e.g. yours and Preston's. Now I'll have to hunt down a picture of Rob's -- if any of his stuff is still online? Ron was nice enough to send me some close-ups of his Preston too. Both yours and his have a strip of hard bone or ivory at the binding, 3 or 4 inches long (replacing the binding) where the strings wrap over the edge. That's the kind of workmanship I would expect (absent from Ron's other instrument). The end-pins on both of your instruments have a symmetrical and evenly spaced center-staggered layout, whereas the hole pattern on Ron's Guitarra is trying to compensate for and match the ultimate final string spacing at the bridge (and nut). The details of both of your brass roses are interesting too, both have music instrument iconography included in their design. What are the two grommet-like things embedded into the top at the tail remnants of? Are they part of some original hardware? Cool. Thank you both. I've seen Doc's instrument on the web as well, his is very pretty too. Thanks much Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Pedro Cabrals answer
From: Stuart Walsh [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 19:56:23 +0200 To: Roger E. Blumberg [EMAIL PROTECTED], cittern@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [CITTERN] Re: Pedro Cabrals answer Several more at Art Robb's site: http://www.art-robb.co.uk/EG.html excellent. Thank you. Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Pedro Cabrals answer
In einer eMail vom 26.10.2006 20:58:40 Westeurop=E4ische Sommerzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Several more at Art Robb's site: http://www.art-robb.co.uk/EG.html Interesting indeed! The one at the bottom of the page has a lute body. Somewhat reminiscent of my Wandervogellaute, but with Preston-style machines! Is this lute-guittar unique, or are others known? Speaking of body shape - aren't there English guitars with vaulted backs built of parallel staves, like the Boehm Waldzithern? What will turn up next? Cheers, John D. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] fret positions on 18th century citterns
I think I may have asked this before but I've done more homework this time. I'm trying to work out how to fret a home-made cittern and I'm having help from a local maker. He's going to re-fret my instrument - my fret placements just didn't work. Embarrassingly, I can't remember what string length I was working to when I made the instrument, but I think it was 50cms. When I made the instrument I just used the guitarists 1/18 rule (or a more precise fraction) to set the fret positions and whether I'd miscalculated or simply sawn the frets in the wrong place (or both) I don't know. But I've got an opportunity to have it put right. Assuming a string length of around 50cms (or a bit different; it has a floating bridge), any ideas on how to work out where to put the frets? I've got very precise instructions form Carpentier's Methode of 1771. But his written instructions and an accompanying diagram differ although it's just one detail, and an important detail. Carpentier is giving instructions for placing frets for an eighteen and a half 'pouce' diapason (= eighteen and a half inch string length). A'pouce' is 25.4mm.There are 12 'lignes' to a pouce. So Carpentier is giving a fretting pattern for an instrument with a string length of 46.99cm. The written instructions for fretting the 'e' chanterelle up to the note b (but Carpentier gives instructions for notes beyond the twelfth fret) translating from lignes to mm are: e-f 29.63mm f-f# 22.2mm f#-g23.283mm g-g# 21.166mm g#-a 21.6958mm a-a# 21.166mm a#-b 19.579mm The diagram in Carpentier's Methode doesn't mention notes just frets (sillets) - fret 1, fret 2 etc and the numbers (given in 'lignes') match up with the written ones except that he misses out the g-g#. So the fret positions derived from the diagram are: nut - fret 1 29.63mm fret 1-fret 2 22.2mm fret 2-fret3 23.283mm fret 3-fret 4 21.6958mm fret 4-fret 5 21.166mm fret 5-fret 6 19.579mm fret 6- fret 719.049mm I wonder if these figures look at all plausible for an instrument with a string length of 46.99cms? And, if they do, which is right! The diagram misses out the g-g# but for the fifth fret (the interval of a fourth) the numbers add up the same for both diagram and written instructions: 117.9478mm. But for the seventh fret (the interval of a fifth) the numbers add up differently. The written instructions would have the seventh fret 158.7198mm from the nut. The diagram would place the seventh fret at 156.603mm from the nut. So a relatively simple question to anyone who knows about fretting is (to repeat): on a cittern with a string length of 46.99cms, which is the more plausible to have the seventh fret at 15.87198cms or 15.6603cms? Many thanks for any guidance or advice. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Pedro Cabrals answer
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In einer eMail vom 26.10.2006 20:58:40 Westeuropäische Sommerzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Several more at Art Robb's site: http://www.art-robb.co.uk/EG.html Interesting indeed! The one at the bottom of the page has a lute body. Somewhat reminiscent of my Wandervogellaute, but with Preston-style machines! Is this lute-guittar unique, or are others known? It's certainly not unique. They weren't common but numbers of them do survive. Some French 'German guitars' (cistre ou guitthare allemandes) were made 'en luth' too. As far as I'm aware these sort of instruments in Britain were simply referred to in their time as 'guitars' or 'guittars' just like the cittern-shaped ones and they were tuned and played in the same way. So: lute-guitar-citterns - but they were never referred to as such - they were guitars, German guitars or English guitars. I've just posted a message asking for help about fretting positions and I mentioned J. Carpentier's 'Methode' (Paris1771). Carpentier discusses what he calls the the 'cythre en luth' in great detail. I just looked up the studia-instrumentorum site ( http://www.studia-instrumentorum.de/MUSEUM/katalog_zistern.htm looking for a lute-shaped cittern and found this: http://www.studia-instrumentorum.de/MUSEUM/ZISTER/3358.htm That thing really has me puzzled - given the date of c1760. Looks like a traditional cittern half neck and cittern peg box. And it looks like it has metal frets and strings passing over the bridge and attaching at the tail, like a cittern. But twelve pegs and six pairs of strings? Of course it could be a one-off thing that happens to have survived. Speaking of body shape - aren't there English guitars with vaulted backs built of parallel staves, like the Boehm Waldzithern? What will turn up next? Cheers, John D. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Pedro Cabrals answer
From: David Kilpatrick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 21:10:37 +0100 To: Roger E. Blumberg [EMAIL PROTECTED], cittern cittern@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [CITTERN] Re: Pedro Cabrals answer Thanks David. Nice to see some examples of variation among makers, e.g. yours and Preston's. Now I'll have to hunt down a picture of Rob's -- if any of his stuff is still online? You missed the link in my page - I photographed Rob and his guittar for one of his CDs a few years back, and it was actually this meeting and seeing Rob's other instruments, which I also photographed, which got me more interested in owning one. It seems I was very lucky to have one come up on eBay within weeks, and to be able to win the top bid against some well-known collectors and players. http://www.maxwellplace.demon.co.uk/pandemonium/mackillop.html Sorry, the pix are a bit smaller than needs be; I do have larger copies. But DSLRs were in their infancy in 2000, and the biggest file are only 2.9 megapixels. I have had a professional digital photo studio since 1995. David yes, I did miss it. Thanks for pointing it out. So did Rob's instrument originally have a Rose? Doesn't he feel cheated without it, doesn't he miss something essential in his sound? Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Pedro Cabrals answer
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 16:00:12 EDT To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], cittern@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [CITTERN] Re: Pedro Cabrals answer In einer eMail vom 26.10.2006 20:58:40 Westeurop=E4ische Sommerzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Several more at Art Robb's site: http://www.art-robb.co.uk/EG.html Interesting indeed! The one at the bottom of the page has a lute body. Somewhat reminiscent of my Wandervogellaute, but with Preston-style machines! Is this lute-guittar unique, or are others known? Speaking of body shape - aren't there English guitars with vaulted backs built of parallel staves, like the Boehm Waldzithern? What will turn up next? Cheers, John D. The geared (and enclosed) tuners on this puppy (1788 Gibson of Dublin) are something too http://www.art-robb.co.uk/EG2pix/headf.jpg Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
