Re: Getting started with Counterclockwise
Ken Wesson kwess...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 1:46 PM, Mike Meyer mwm-keyword-googlegroups.620...@mired.org wrote: Ditto. Most often, the code site is the sole project site, and everything is there. Some larger projects may have a separate home page, but it's always prominently mentioned on the code site. In either case, the code site is worth checking out - especially if it's the first link turned up by Google. The real problem is that navigating those sites can be a pain, if you aren't intimately familiar with how the project is organized. Ever land at some SourceForge page, see just a brief description of what the project's software is supposed to do and a bunch of SourceForge infrastructure, click files, and encounter a bewildering array of zips and binaries, none clearly labeled as, say, the Windows installer for the current version? Sure, Sturgeon's law is closer to 99% than 90% for the web. But if you don't even look at the right page to start with because of a false assumption, then any suggestions for fixing it are at best futile. -- Sent from my Android tablet with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Getting started with Counterclockwise
Ken Wesson kwess...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 12:07 PM, Mike Meyer mwm-keyword-googlegroups.620...@mired.org wrote: Sure, Sturgeon's law is closer to 99% than 90% for the web. But if you don't even look at the right page to start with That is why I say it behooves projects that wish to grow a large user-base to have a highly-ranked google result be clearly the place for prospective end-users to go for further information, documentation, friendly download links, etc. :) Which is exactly what the project page is for most people - if it's the #1 Google result. -- Sent from my Android tablet with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Getting started with Counterclockwise
On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 12:31 PM, Mike Meyer mwm-keyword-googlegroups.620...@mired.org wrote: Ken Wesson kwess...@gmail.com wrote: That is why I say it behooves projects that wish to grow a large user-base to have a highly-ranked google result be clearly the place for prospective end-users to go for further information, documentation, friendly download links, etc. :) Which is exactly what the project page is for most people Disagree. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Getting started with Counterclockwise
Ken Wesson kwess...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 12:31 PM, Mike Meyer mwm-keyword-googlegroups.620...@mired.org wrote: Ken Wesson kwess...@gmail.com wrote: That is why I say it behooves projects that wish to grow a large user-base to have a highly-ranked google result be clearly the place for prospective end-users to go for further information, documentation, friendly download links, etc. :) Which is exactly what the project page is for most people Disagree. Of course - you're not most people, you're a developer. That means names like bitbucket and sourceforge mean something to you. They don't for people who aren't developers. -- Sent from my Android tablet with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Getting started with Counterclockwise
On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 1:24 PM, Mike Meyer mwm-keyword-googlegroups.620...@mired.org wrote: Ken Wesson kwess...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 12:31 PM, Mike Meyer mwm-keyword-googlegroups.620...@mired.org wrote: Ken Wesson kwess...@gmail.com wrote: That is why I say it behooves projects that wish to grow a large user-base to have a highly-ranked google result be clearly the place for prospective end-users to go for further information, documentation, friendly download links, etc. :) Which is exactly what the project page is for most people Disagree. Of course - you're not most people, you're a developer. That means names like bitbucket and sourceforge mean something to you. They don't for people who aren't developers. Not until after they go there once or twice, find confusing project pages with no clear starting point for prospective end users, and form an opinion of the site. :) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Getting started with Counterclockwise
On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 13:38:24 -0500 Ken Wesson kwess...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 1:24 PM, Mike Meyer mwm-keyword-googlegroups.620...@mired.org wrote: Ken Wesson kwess...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 12:31 PM, Mike Meyer mwm-keyword-googlegroups.620...@mired.org wrote: Ken Wesson kwess...@gmail.com wrote: That is why I say it behooves projects that wish to grow a large user-base to have a highly-ranked google result be clearly the place for prospective end-users to go for further information, documentation, friendly download links, etc. :) Which is exactly what the project page is for most people Disagree. Of course - you're not most people, you're a developer. That means names like bitbucket and sourceforge mean something to you. They don't for people who aren't developers. Not until after they go there once or twice, find confusing project pages with no clear starting point for prospective end users, and form an opinion of the site. :) Yup. Those pages are about as well organized as every other page one finds on the internet, so they wind up forming the exact same opinion as they do of most sites. If someone takes the time to do a good site design, it doesn't matter who hosts it. If they don't, putting it on a custom domain won't magically make it better. For instance, try and figure out how to install the Cyanogenmod software based on www.cyanogenmod.com. mike -- Mike Meyer m...@mired.org http://www.mired.org/consulting.html Independent Network/Unix/Perforce consultant, email for more information. O ascii ribbon campaign - stop html mail - www.asciiribbon.org -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Getting started with Counterclockwise
On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 1:45 PM, Mike Meyer mwm-keyword-googlegroups.620...@mired.org wrote: Not until after they go there once or twice, find confusing project pages with no clear starting point for prospective end users, and form an opinion of the site. :) Yup. Those pages are about as well organized as every other page one finds on the internet, so they wind up forming the exact same opinion as they do of most sites. If someone takes the time to do a good site design, it doesn't matter who hosts it. If they don't, putting it on a custom domain won't magically make it better. For instance, try and figure out how to install the Cyanogenmod software based on www.cyanogenmod.com. But that's neglecting a crucial biasing factor: with project-hosting sites it's very easy to just slap together a few text blurbs for the front page and carry on your business using the tracker and repository; with regular web hosting you need to think a bit and actually come up with some page content, and you probably wouldn't have bothered to get regular web hosting if you weren't intending to. So if there's a regular .com site it's got a higher probability of being easy for end-users to navigate versus a randomly-selected sourceforge page. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Getting started with Counterclockwise
On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 13:51:40 -0500 Ken Wesson kwess...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 1:45 PM, Mike Meyer mwm-keyword-googlegroups.620...@mired.org wrote: Not until after they go there once or twice, find confusing project pages with no clear starting point for prospective end users, and form an opinion of the site. :) Yup. Those pages are about as well organized as every other page one finds on the internet, so they wind up forming the exact same opinion as they do of most sites. If someone takes the time to do a good site design, it doesn't matter who hosts it. If they don't, putting it on a custom domain won't magically make it better. For instance, try and figure out how to install the Cyanogenmod software based on www.cyanogenmod.com. But that's neglecting a crucial biasing factor: with project-hosting sites it's very easy to just slap together a few text blurbs for the front page and carry on your business using the tracker and repository; with regular web hosting you need to think a bit and actually come up with some page content, and you probably wouldn't have bothered to get regular web hosting if you weren't intending to. So if there's a regular .com site it's got a higher probability of being easy for end-users to navigate versus a randomly-selected sourceforge page. Disagree, and already provided a counter-example. mike -- Mike Meyer m...@mired.org http://www.mired.org/consulting.html Independent Network/Unix/Perforce consultant, email for more information. O ascii ribbon campaign - stop html mail - www.asciiribbon.org -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Getting started with Counterclockwise
On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 2:58 PM, Mike Meyer mwm-keyword-googlegroups.620...@mired.org wrote: On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 13:51:40 -0500 Ken Wesson kwess...@gmail.com wrote: But that's neglecting a crucial biasing factor: with project-hosting sites it's very easy to just slap together a few text blurbs for the front page and carry on your business using the tracker and repository; with regular web hosting you need to think a bit and actually come up with some page content, and you probably wouldn't have bothered to get regular web hosting if you weren't intending to. So if there's a regular .com site it's got a higher probability of being easy for end-users to navigate versus a randomly-selected sourceforge page. Disagree, and already provided a counter-example. A counter-example to what? The argument I made is probabilistic. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Getting started with Counterclockwise
Laurent PETIT laurent.pe...@gmail.com wrote: 2011/1/20 Ken Wesson kwess...@gmail.com On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 9:39 AM, Rayne disciplera...@gmail.com wrote: Aren't you a developer? I'm not a CCW developer. If a code.google link is the top of google results, that's what I'm going to click and check out first. code.google is a project hosting site, not just a place to throw up code and developer discussion. Yes, I know, but the general pattern is that those types of project hosting sites tend to host developer-centric material -- that is, material mainly of interest to developers *working on that project*, not just developers *using* it to develop *something else*. Not in my experience. Ditto. Most often, the code site is the sole project site, and everything is there. Some larger projects may have a separate home page, but it's always prominently mentioned on the code site. In either case, the code site is worth checking out - especially if it's the first link turned up by Google. -- Sent from my Android tablet with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Getting started with Counterclockwise
On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 1:46 PM, Mike Meyer mwm-keyword-googlegroups.620...@mired.org wrote: Ditto. Most often, the code site is the sole project site, and everything is there. Some larger projects may have a separate home page, but it's always prominently mentioned on the code site. In either case, the code site is worth checking out - especially if it's the first link turned up by Google. The real problem is that navigating those sites can be a pain, if you aren't intimately familiar with how the project is organized. Ever land at some SourceForge page, see just a brief description of what the project's software is supposed to do and a bunch of SourceForge infrastructure, click files, and encounter a bewildering array of zips and binaries, none clearly labeled as, say, the Windows installer for the current version? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Getting started with Counterclockwise
2011/1/25 NovusTiro novust...@gmail.com: Hello, Seems like this might be a good time to say thanks to Laurent for all the work he's done on CCW. FWIW, I've been using it for a while, and never had any issues installing it (at least not from a clean Eclipse), nor any of the other described issues. So thanks Laurent, and keep up the good work! Thank you for the kind words :-D -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Getting started with Counterclockwise
Hello, Seems like this might be a good time to say thanks to Laurent for all the work he's done on CCW. FWIW, I've been using it for a while, and never had any issues installing it (at least not from a clean Eclipse), nor any of the other described issues. So thanks Laurent, and keep up the good work! MBL On Jan 20, 8:45 am, Ken Wesson kwess...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 9:56 AM, Luc Prefontaine lprefonta...@softaddicts.ca wrote: Not reading wiki pages available, not investigating available links about ccw are more a sign of mental laziness than anything else or some form of disdain. Or, they can be a sign of not having been pointed to the links by the install process, and none of them looking particularly promising when returned as Google hits. If these mundane activities are not important to you then maybe you should balance your post contents a bit and change the ranting/facts ratio. You cannot hold others responsible for your lack of knowledge in some areas. True. But I can certainly hold others responsible for a) not setting up conditions where a majority of the people in some group G will naturally encounter certain information I, but then b) expressing an expectation that the people in group G will know I anyway, and c) being condescending towards anyone you encounter from G that does not know I. I see the same pattern with your ranting against the numeric optimizations in 1.3. All of these discussions are available in the google group mailing list but it seems you did not read them to fully understand the pros and cons of each approach that where evaluated. Because it was a long, rambling discussion thread full of all manner of tangents, plus stuff that was in flux and later changed, plus ... etc. I asked if someone could point me to a summary or precis of the key, still-relevant facts and arguments, something that could get me up to speed with, you know, *actual speed* instead of taking days. The closest I got was a four-page-or-so summary of two proposed versions of the changes, and I did read that. You have been asked kindly to change your tone. Are you implying a threat? The next part of your post seemed to descend into name-calling, more threats, and other unconstructive material, so I did not bother to read further. Have a good day. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Getting started with Counterclockwise
On Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 7:57 PM, Ken Wesson kwess...@gmail.com wrote: Which tempts me to ask why you decided to bring it up again? :) Because the topic arose again. Because _you_ brought the topic up again. Did you expect a different outcome this time? You know what they say about madness (doing the same thing over and over but expecting a different result)... :) -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://getrailo.com/ An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Getting started with Counterclockwise
On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 11:14 AM, Sean Corfield seancorfi...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 7:57 PM, Ken Wesson kwess...@gmail.com wrote: Which tempts me to ask why you decided to bring it up again? :) Because the topic arose again. Because _you_ brought the topic up again. Did you expect a different outcome this time? You know what they say about madness (doing the same thing over and over but expecting a different result)... :) Perhaps you're right. I recall an old adage about trying to teach a pig to sing. ;) No, seriously, I do still feel that a) the installer + restart IDE combo should result in a fully working install of the plugin -- in particular, that if anything ever needs resetting restarting the IDE should reset it -- and b) CCW should have an obviously-user-focused web presence, analogously to how Clojure itself has clojure.org and not just clojure.github.com. I accept that most of you seem to disagree with that, though I do feel that your reasons for doing so are unconvincing and that my reasons for what I believe are strong; but it's unlikely at this point you will change your minds regardless. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Getting started with Counterclockwise
On Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 2:07 AM, Sean Corfield seancorfi...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 12:45 PM, Chas Emerick cemer...@snowtide.com wrote: The links to the users' and developers' google groups for ccw are prominently linked on the right side of the ccw site: http://code.google.com/p/counterclockwise/ And that URL is the #1 Google result for: clojure eclipse And looks to CCW newbies like it's likely to just lead to a code repository, tracker, and CCW-developer-centric mailing lists. (and this discussion has occurred before about the discoverability of IDE documentation with much the same content and result) It has indeed. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Getting started with Counterclockwise
On Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 12:46 AM, Ken Wesson kwess...@gmail.com wrote: http://code.google.com/p/counterclockwise/ And that URL is the #1 Google result for: clojure eclipse And looks to CCW newbies like it's likely to just lead to a code repository, tracker, and CCW-developer-centric mailing lists. I'll concede that it looks to _you_ like such a site. When I picked up CCW for the first time, I assumed (correctly) it was the project home page and would be where I could find all the end user documentation (as well as developer documentation). (and this discussion has occurred before about the discoverability of IDE documentation with much the same content and result) It has indeed. Which tempts me to ask why you decided to bring it up again? :) -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://getrailo.com/ An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Getting started with Counterclockwise
On Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 7:21 PM, Sean Corfield seancorfi...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 12:46 AM, Ken Wesson kwess...@gmail.com wrote: (and this discussion has occurred before about the discoverability of IDE documentation with much the same content and result) It has indeed. Which tempts me to ask why you decided to bring it up again? :) Because the topic arose again. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Getting started with Counterclockwise
On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 12:45 PM, Chas Emerick cemer...@snowtide.com wrote: The links to the users' and developers' google groups for ccw are prominently linked on the right side of the ccw site: http://code.google.com/p/counterclockwise/ And that URL is the #1 Google result for: clojure eclipse (and this discussion has occurred before about the discoverability of IDE documentation with much the same content and result) -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://getrailo.com/ An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Getting started with Counterclockwise
On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 9:39 AM, Rayne disciplera...@gmail.com wrote: Aren't you a developer? I'm not a CCW developer. If a code.google link is the top of google results, that's what I'm going to click and check out first. code.google is a project hosting site, not just a place to throw up code and developer discussion. Yes, I know, but the general pattern is that those types of project hosting sites tend to host developer-centric material -- that is, material mainly of interest to developers *working on that project*, not just developers *using* it to develop *something else*. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Getting started with Counterclockwise
On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 9:56 AM, Luc Prefontaine lprefonta...@softaddicts.ca wrote: Not reading wiki pages available, not investigating available links about ccw are more a sign of mental laziness than anything else or some form of disdain. Or, they can be a sign of not having been pointed to the links by the install process, and none of them looking particularly promising when returned as Google hits. If these mundane activities are not important to you then maybe you should balance your post contents a bit and change the ranting/facts ratio. You cannot hold others responsible for your lack of knowledge in some areas. True. But I can certainly hold others responsible for a) not setting up conditions where a majority of the people in some group G will naturally encounter certain information I, but then b) expressing an expectation that the people in group G will know I anyway, and c) being condescending towards anyone you encounter from G that does not know I. I see the same pattern with your ranting against the numeric optimizations in 1.3. All of these discussions are available in the google group mailing list but it seems you did not read them to fully understand the pros and cons of each approach that where evaluated. Because it was a long, rambling discussion thread full of all manner of tangents, plus stuff that was in flux and later changed, plus ... etc. I asked if someone could point me to a summary or precis of the key, still-relevant facts and arguments, something that could get me up to speed with, you know, *actual speed* instead of taking days. The closest I got was a four-page-or-so summary of two proposed versions of the changes, and I did read that. You have been asked kindly to change your tone. Are you implying a threat? The next part of your post seemed to descend into name-calling, more threats, and other unconstructive material, so I did not bother to read further. Have a good day. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Getting started with Counterclockwise
2011/1/20 Ken Wesson kwess...@gmail.com On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 9:39 AM, Rayne disciplera...@gmail.com wrote: Aren't you a developer? I'm not a CCW developer. If a code.google link is the top of google results, that's what I'm going to click and check out first. code.google is a project hosting site, not just a place to throw up code and developer discussion. Yes, I know, but the general pattern is that those types of project hosting sites tend to host developer-centric material -- that is, material mainly of interest to developers *working on that project*, not just developers *using* it to develop *something else*. Not in my experience -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Getting started with Counterclockwise
You have been asked kindly to change your tone. Are you implying a threat? The next part of your post seemed to descend into name-calling, more threats, and other unconstructive material, so I did not bother to read further. Have a good day. Nobody is implying any threats. They are simply asking you to be a little bit more considerate when you are asking/replying to questions. Before sending a reply just read over it quickly and ask yourself if I were on the receiving end of this email would it offend me?. CCW is free and open source software that people have put a lot of effort into. Questions and improvements are a great way to grow and nurture projects, but the tone here has gotten a little out of hand. If all questions have been answered let's move on and keep the good discussions rolling. Cheers, Aaron Bedra -- Clojure/core http://clojure.comcl -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Getting started with Counterclockwise
On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 8:46 AM, Laurent PETIT laurent.pe...@gmail.com wrote: 2011/1/20 Ken Wesson kwess...@gmail.com On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 9:39 AM, Rayne disciplera...@gmail.com wrote: Aren't you a developer? I'm not a CCW developer. If a code.google link is the top of google results, that's what I'm going to click and check out first. code.google is a project hosting site, not just a place to throw up code and developer discussion. Yes, I know, but the general pattern is that those types of project hosting sites tend to host developer-centric material -- that is, material mainly of interest to developers *working on that project*, not just developers *using* it to develop *something else*. Not in my experience Yes in mine. Here, I just pulled up a semi-random SourceForge project: https://sourceforge.net/projects/civicrm/ Quite terse, though there's a big friendly download button. Files leads to a directory view of assorted stuff, Support refers you off elsewhere and has little else, and Develop and Tracker are definitely not useful to an end-user not planning yet to contribute bug reports and patches. The nicer user-centric site is, of course, http://civicrm.org/ which is linked (not with very prominent-sized links) from the main SourceForge page and the support page. (Nicer, in this case, is relative; the site's front page, at least, is reminiscent of corporate sites that are big on glamor and buzzwords and not so big on clear, entry-level information to quickly tell the new visitor what they probably want to know. A bit more text and a screenshot might have been nice.) Anyway, I figure the typical user quickly learns to look for the .com or .org and steer clear of jumping from a SERP directly to a SourceForge, Google Code, github, or similar page unless it's absolutely necessary, or until they have been using the software for a while and feel the urge to try to contribute to its development. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Getting started with Counterclockwise
Issuing threats against you ? Chasing a fly with a news paper has more value than spending time with you for any purpose. You clearly do not understand what a lot of people have been telling you in different ways. Ignoring you is a much more rational use of my time. Others should come to the same conclusion. Oups, need to flush that junk folder again... crap appeared in it again. On Thu, 20 Jan 2011 08:45:12 -0500 Ken Wesson kwess...@gmail.com wrote: Are you implying a threat? The next part of your post seemed to descend into name-calling, more threats, and other unconstructive material, so I did not bother to read further. Have a good day. -- Luc P. The rabid Muppet -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Getting started with Counterclockwise
2011/1/20 Aaron Bedra aaron.be...@gmail.com Dropped a lot of raaather ininteresting stuff Cheers, Aaron Bedra -- Clojure/core http://clojure.comcl Aaron, From your signature, where I see Clojure/core, I thought that you were maybe a core member of the clojure community. But how laaame are you, the url of the website below your title does not work. Indeed, I keep clicking on it again and again, but I always get the same server not found error from my browser. I find this totally pathetic that the clojure website is down or unreferenced when it should be the first source of information for people ! It's not admissible, and it's not because all these open source licenses embed a denial of responsibility clause that will change the fact that it seems rather IRRESPONSIBLE to let such problems hit the mailing list. Yes, I don't have time to waste clicking your wrong links, but I have time to write looonng answers because I'm thinking that maybe, some time or the other, you will be able to learn something from me. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Getting started with Counterclockwise
Seriously, Aaron, there's a typo in your signature. Take care ;) -- Laurent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Getting started with Counterclockwise
Yep, just fixed that :) Cheers, Aaron Bedra -- Clojure/core http://clojure.com On 01/20/2011 09:36 AM, Laurent PETIT wrote: Seriously, Aaron, there's a typo in your signature. Take care ;) -- Laurent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Getting started with Counterclockwise
On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 9:31 AM, Luc Prefontaine lprefonta...@softaddicts.ca wrote: Chasing a fly with a news paper has more value than spending time with you for any purpose. ... Oups, need to flush that junk folder again... crap appeared in it again. And some people are claiming that *I* am being trollish, churlish, or unreasonable. Go figure. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Getting started with Counterclockwise
On Jan 20, 2011, at 9:34 AM, Laurent PETIT wrote: 2011/1/20 Aaron Bedra aaron.be...@gmail.com Clojure/core http://clojure.comcl the url of the website below your title does not work. http://clojure.com I don't think it's that hard to figure out. Personally, I'd rather he continue to add cool features and help people on the lists than futz with his sig file. Best Wishes, Peter -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Getting started with Counterclockwise
On 01/20/2011 10:15 AM, Ken Wesson wrote: On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 9:31 AM, Luc Prefontaine lprefonta...@softaddicts.ca wrote: Chasing a fly with a news paper has more value than spending time with you for any purpose. ... Oups, need to flush that junk folder again... crap appeared in it again. And some people are claiming that *I* am being trollish, churlish, or unreasonable. Go figure. Agreed. Comments like this are unnecessary. Let's let this thread die and move on. Cheers, Aaron Bedra -- Clojure/core http://clojure.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Getting started with Counterclockwise
I've been using ccw for a while now and it works perfectly as advertised. Plus the new 0.2.0 version looks to be really promising. I invite all ccw users to give their inputs. What's bugging is not that you faced a problem or that ccw didn't work as you expected, what's disturbing is how you reacted to it. What follows is that the developers working on the project get discouraged, some new users may just read your post and decide not to try out ccw. You should give a thought before posting something like this. Do you really want to end up like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Boy_Who_Cried_Wolf. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Getting started with Counterclockwise
On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 3:14 PM, ka sancha...@gmail.com wrote: I've been using ccw for a while now and it works perfectly as advertised. Plus the new 0.2.0 version looks to be really promising. I invite all ccw users to give their inputs. What's bugging is not that you faced a problem or that ccw didn't work as you expected, what's disturbing is how you reacted to it. What follows is that the developers working on the project get discouraged, some new users may just read your post and decide not to try out ccw. You should give a thought before posting something like this. Do you really want to end up like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Boy_Who_Cried_Wolf. I don't recall posting anything that wasn't warranted by the evidence that was available to me at the time that I posted it. In any event, it is clear that it does not quite work perfectly; the problem may simply be in the installer instead of in some other area. What it is not is nonexistent. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Getting started with Counterclockwise
Hi Mr. Bell, allow me to introduce you to Mr. Sarcasm. :p On Jan 20, 9:32 am, Peter Bell pe...@pbell.com wrote: On Jan 20, 2011, at 9:34 AM, Laurent PETIT wrote: 2011/1/20 Aaron Bedra aaron.be...@gmail.com Clojure/core http://clojure.comcl the url of the website below your title does not work. http://clojure.com I don't think it's that hard to figure out. Personally, I'd rather he continue to add cool features and help people on the lists than futz with his sig file. Best Wishes, Peter -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Getting started with Counterclockwise
2011/1/19 Meikel Brandmeyer m...@kotka.de Hi, On 19 Jan., 00:28, Luc Prefontaine lprefonta...@softaddicts.ca wrote: Can you provide the plugin list from Eclipse ? (About - Installation details) A while back I ran into a similar problem: a fresh install of eclipse + only ccw didn't work on my machine. Mysteriously using the same files for eclipse and ccw on a different machine worked as advertised. I contacted Laurent and he helped me tracking down the problem, but we quickly ran out of ideas and couldn't fix the issue. So maybe it's just bad karma... Heh ;) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Getting started with Counterclockwise
2011/1/18 Ken Wesson kwess...@gmail.com On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 1:14 PM, Chas Emerick cemer...@snowtide.com wrote: Any tone you might have picked up from Laurent might be a reaction to your ranting about how ccw is apparently rubbish rather than asking for help. Well, excse me for assuming, Another day, less tired than today, another attempt. [OT] Ken, out of topic question: are you aware of the impact of the way you write things ? It's quite strange how you avoid the topic when people directly mention it. And it's also strange how at the same time, you reinforce the problem by using a writing style with emphasis on complaining, ranting, etc. : the 4 u in excse me being a good example of what I'm trying to explain. [/OT] Now back to business. Ken, the raw content of your feedback report on installing and trying Counterclockwise has been noted, and I certainly intend to pick ideas in it for future releases of CCW. In the mean time, there's a question you did not explicitly answer to: was there an implicit question in your email, beyond its informative nature ? Last question: would it be possible for you to try write your posts in a less emotional/sarcastic/condescendent way ? Because it's really counter productive and does not serve well neither the point you're trying to make, neither the feelings of the recipient(s) of your mail. Cheers, -- Laurent quite reasonably, that if, after an install and restart during which no error messages appeared and subsequent to which create new Clojure project had appeared in the application menus, a feature, that if it existed should obviously be prominently featured in certain right-click menus, was not there, then it had not been implemented. :) Tangentially, IMO it'd be nice if tooling troubleshooting discussions didn't hit this list at all, since there are presumably mailing lists and other forums specific to each toolset. Your email is the first place that I encountered the url for any forum specific to CCW. Notably, this means that no such url showed up at any point during the process of obtaining, installing, and attempting to use CCW. Troubleshooting discussions for CCW might show up here less frequently if the existence, nevermind the location, of the list you mentioned was more apparent to new users. :) (And, of course, let's not forget that this didn't actually start as a troubleshooting discussion. As far as I was aware CCW was working properly but simply did not have (easy access to) certain functionality that I had expected. So I was reviewing a product/starting a feature-request discussion, not starting a troubleshooting discussion, as far as I knew at the time.) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comclojure%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Getting started with Counterclockwise
On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 5:13 AM, Laurent PETIT laurent.pe...@gmail.com wrote: 2011/1/18 Ken Wesson kwess...@gmail.com On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 1:14 PM, Chas Emerick cemer...@snowtide.com wrote: Any tone you might have picked up from Laurent might be a reaction to your ranting about how ccw is apparently rubbish rather than asking for help. Well, excse me for assuming, Another day, less tired than today, another attempt. ? [OT] Ken, out of topic question: are you aware of the impact of the way you write things ? ? It's quite strange how you avoid the topic when people directly mention it. ? And it's also strange how at the same time, you reinforce the problem by using a writing style with emphasis on complaining, ranting, etc. : the 4 u in excse me being a good example of what I'm trying to explain. Chas Emerick's post criticized me. I defended myself. The part of his criticism that was unreasonable was the foundational assumption that I had recognized CCW as malfunctioning rather than what actually occurred, which was that as far as I was aware it was working properly but simply lacking some features. I don't think it was unreasonable for me to be a bit sarcastic in pointing this out, since the original post makes it clear that I interpreted what I saw as not-yet-implemented features rather than as bugs. Indeed, that original post was in no way deserving of criticism and yet I've received nothing else since posting it. First from you with your implication that I was remiss in not having read some install guide that does not turn up at any point along the path to getting it installed, and now from several people about my writing style. I respectfully suggest that if you don't like the slightly acerbic style with which I respond in my own defense when unfairly criticized, then perhaps you should simply avoid criticizing me. Ken, the raw content of your feedback report on installing and trying Counterclockwise has been noted, and I certainly intend to pick ideas in it for future releases of CCW. You are involved in its development? (If so, it's even more mystifying that you asked me to submit a ticket on the problems I observed -- you would already have all the logins and access you need to do so AND far more familiarity with the tracker, so by the time I even got to your reply the ticket could have already existed. And if the development team knew about these problems before I encountered them, and even wrote some (lamentably not easily stumbled-upon) documentation regarding work-arounds, shouldn't such a ticket have *already* existed?) In the mean time, there's a question you did not explicitly answer to: was there an implicit question in your email, beyond its informative nature ? No. Just statements of observed fact about CCW. Last question: would it be possible for you to try write your posts in a less emotional/sarcastic/condescendent way ? I only replied in kind. The first snark was from you, if you'll recall: I have good news for you: ccw documentation is linked from the main page of the counterclockwise project, in the Quick links section, and it's neither a pdf neither a video, plain old wiki page This is clearly not only sarcastic but an implied criticism that I should have already seen and read this, even though nowhere is any of it linked to during the process of getting and installing CCW. Because it's really counter productive and does not serve well neither the point you're trying to make, neither the feelings of the recipient(s) of your mail. That applies double to whoever throws the first snark. Nobody should be surprised or especially dismayed if, after someone does so, their target responds in kind. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Getting started with Counterclockwise
Aren't you a developer? I am. I think everybody else here is as well. If a code.google link is the top of google results, that's what I'm going to click and check out first. code.google is a project hosting site, not just a place to throw up code and developer discussion. It offers wiki services, downloads, and various other things that are useful to users and developers alike. Most importantly, you're looking for an Clojure plugin for Eclipse, Touch Type Like Pros v2.0. Wouldn't a developer looking for developer tools be apt to check out a developer site of which they are likely already familiar with anyway? And would you consider Github results as unintuitive and 'developer- centric' as Google Code? If so, good luck finding libraries and other Clojure projects, because 98% of them are hosted on Github, and not many see necessity in a whole website dedicated to them. Ah. That would be the site that most prospective users will assume is a developer-centric site. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Getting started with Counterclockwise
Ken, It's always easy to complain and you seem excellent at it. However, to investigate any problem, hard facts are needed to support the fixing process. There are little facts reported in your emails about the problems you experienced according to you regarding ccw. Not reading wiki pages available, not investigating available links about ccw are more a sign of mental laziness than anything else or some form of disdain. It's clear that you are not familiar with Eclipse and this is a sinequanone condition to use an IDE. Either read Eclipse documentation or develop knowledge to extensive use before ranting about it. Whatever is efficient for you. If these mundane activities are not important to you then maybe you should balance your post contents a bit and change the ranting/facts ratio. You cannot hold others responsible for your lack of knowledge in some areas. I see the same pattern with your ranting against the numeric optimizations in 1.3. All of these discussions are available in the google group mailing list but it seems you did not read them to fully understand the pros and cons of each approach that where evaluated. Too bad you joined the group after these decisions where made. It's up to you to live with it and catch up. That's your problem, not ours. You have been asked kindly to change your tone. Lucky for you, I do not use white gloves most of the time so you get my appreciation of your contribution straight here. As nice as some of your previous posts: It's easy to write things like you do when you do not have any face to face contact with the recipients of your diatribes. I'm big, mean and I hate prima donnas. You would not even try to use that tone with a guy like me. You did not even rant at me and I cannot stand your posts anymore. You should change career, maybe the Hollywood star system would be an alternative. To prevent myself from throwing-up daily, I added a rule to my email client so emails having your name in it ends up in the junk folder. I regularly empty it without reading its content. I invite others that find your tone inconvenient to do the same. You can still rant in the desert, at least I will not spend anymore time reading your unconstructive complaints. Have a nice day, Luc P. On Wed, 19 Jan 2011 08:49:35 -0500 Ken Wesson kwess...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 5:13 AM, Laurent PETIT laurent.pe...@gmail.com wrote: 2011/1/18 Ken Wesson kwess...@gmail.com On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 1:14 PM, Chas Emerick cemer...@snowtide.com wrote: Any tone you might have picked up from Laurent might be a reaction to your ranting about how ccw is apparently rubbish rather than asking for help. Well, excse me for assuming, Another day, less tired than today, another attempt. ? [OT] Ken, out of topic question: are you aware of the impact of the way you write things ? ? It's quite strange how you avoid the topic when people directly mention it. ? And it's also strange how at the same time, you reinforce the problem by using a writing style with emphasis on complaining, ranting, etc. : the 4 u in excse me being a good example of what I'm trying to explain. Chas Emerick's post criticized me. I defended myself. The part of his criticism that was unreasonable was the foundational assumption that I had recognized CCW as malfunctioning rather than what actually occurred, which was that as far as I was aware it was working properly but simply lacking some features. I don't think it was unreasonable for me to be a bit sarcastic in pointing this out, since the original post makes it clear that I interpreted what I saw as not-yet-implemented features rather than as bugs. Indeed, that original post was in no way deserving of criticism and yet I've received nothing else since posting it. First from you with your implication that I was remiss in not having read some install guide that does not turn up at any point along the path to getting it installed, and now from several people about my writing style. I respectfully suggest that if you don't like the slightly acerbic style with which I respond in my own defense when unfairly criticized, then perhaps you should simply avoid criticizing me. Ken, the raw content of your feedback report on installing and trying Counterclockwise has been noted, and I certainly intend to pick ideas in it for future releases of CCW. You are involved in its development? (If so, it's even more mystifying that you asked me to submit a ticket on the problems I observed -- you would already have all the logins and access you need to do so AND far more familiarity with the tracker, so by the time I even got to your reply the ticket could have already existed. And if the development team knew about these problems before I encountered them, and even wrote some (lamentably not easily stumbled-upon) documentation regarding work-arounds,
Re: Getting started with Counterclockwise
I'm big, mean and I hate prima donnas. You would not even try to use that tone with a guy like me. I can vouch for that! Regards, BG -- Baishampayan Ghose b.ghose at gmail.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Getting started with Counterclockwise
2011/1/19 Luc Prefontaine lprefonta...@softaddicts.ca Ken, It's always easy to complain and you seem excellent at it. However, to investigate any problem, hard facts are needed to support the fixing process. There are little facts reported in your emails about the problems you experienced according to you regarding ccw. Not reading wiki pages available, not investigating available links about ccw are more a sign of mental laziness than anything else or some form of disdain. It's clear that you are not familiar with Eclipse and this is a sinequanone condition to use an IDE. Either read Eclipse documentation or develop knowledge to extensive use before ranting about it. Whatever is efficient for you. If these mundane activities are not important to you then maybe you should balance your post contents a bit and change the ranting/facts ratio. You cannot hold others responsible for your lack of knowledge in some areas. I see the same pattern with your ranting against the numeric optimizations in 1.3. All of these discussions are available in the google group mailing list but it seems you did not read them to fully understand the pros and cons of each approach that where evaluated. Too bad you joined the group after these decisions where made. It's up to you to live with it and catch up. That's your problem, not ours. You have been asked kindly to change your tone. Lucky for you, I do not use white gloves most of the time so you get my appreciation of your contribution straight here. As nice as some of your previous posts: It's easy to write things like you do when you do not have any face to face contact with the recipients of your diatribes. I'm big, mean and I hate prima donnas. You would not even try to use that tone with a guy like me. You did not even rant at me and I cannot stand your posts anymore. You should change career, maybe the Hollywood star system would be an alternative. To prevent myself from throwing-up daily, I added a rule to my email client so emails having your name in it ends up in the junk folder. I regularly empty it without reading its content. I invite others that find your tone inconvenient to do the same. I really tried not to come to such extremes, but I'll too follow this advice. The filter rule will help me resist the temptation of doing more harm than good by continuing to participate to ruining Clojure's mailing list good reputation. Too bad I'll certainly miss some interesting content in the process, but I can live with that. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Getting started with Counterclockwise
Hi, 2011/1/18 Ken Wesson kwess...@gmail.com I decided to test-drive CCW to see if it had leapfrogged Enclojure. Apparently not: whereas it was quick and easy to get NB 6.9.1 and Enclojure installed, create a new Clojure project, and get a REPL, trying the same with Eclipse and CCW rapidly hit a snag. The Eclipse download went without a hitch; I installed the newest version (as of the datestamp of this email). Finding and downloading CCW from inside Eclipse also was not difficult, and it restarted without any misbehavior. Creating a new Clojure project from a menu item was also straightforward. The problem is, apparently CCW's idea of a new Clojure project is simply a new Java project that has the clojure and clojure.contrib jars as preconfigured dependencies. No menu options exist to create a new Clojure namespace .clj file, It does. You should see an option Clojure File in the File Create new menu. If not, then probably there's a problem with the java perspective not being refreshed. That's more annoying now that people will more and more use the Eclipse integrated market place to install ccw, and thus not follow the quick install guide which explicitly says Go to menu Window Reset Perspective ... Will you please file an issue for this ? nor to create a REPL using the project dependencies, Not true. Select any clj file of your project, or select the project's node, and trigger the Run Clojure Application command. Please note that you have installed the stable version of CCW, version 0.0.64, and that in this version the REPL is working, but featureless. If you want to help test future 0.2.0 version of CCW, you'll need to remove version 0.0.64, and install the alternate feature from the ccw update site : * first uninstall CCW 0.0.64: Menu Help About Eclipse Installation Detail [Select Counterclockwise .., click Uninstall...] * follow the manual steps listed here http://www.assembla.com/wiki/show/clojure/Getting_Started_with_Eclipse_and_Counterclockwise * but instead of installing version 0.0.64, go to the ... Release candidates version category and check Counterclockwise Feature REPL UI Branch version 0.2.0.RC04 unlike the case with Enclojure; just the usual Java options for generating Java class and interface files, etc. (I examined the main menus and the right-click menus for the Clojure project object and its src folder; no dice. I also clicked the change-perspective gadget after noticing it indicating a Java perspective, to see if there was a separate Clojure perspective to change to, which might make the desired options appear in the interface; also no dice.) I have good news for you: ccw documentation is linked from the main page of the counterclockwise project, in the Quick links section, and it's neither a pdf neither a video, plain old wiki page: http://code.google.com/p/counterclockwise/wiki/Documentation HTH, -- Laurent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Getting started with Counterclockwise
2011/1/18 Laurent PETIT laurent.pe...@gmail.com Hi, 2011/1/18 Ken Wesson kwess...@gmail.com I decided to test-drive CCW to see if it had leapfrogged Enclojure. Apparently not: whereas it was quick and easy to get NB 6.9.1 and Enclojure installed, create a new Clojure project, and get a REPL, trying the same with Eclipse and CCW rapidly hit a snag. The Eclipse download went without a hitch; I installed the newest version (as of the datestamp of this email). Finding and downloading CCW from inside Eclipse also was not difficult, and it restarted without any misbehavior. Creating a new Clojure project from a menu item was also straightforward. The problem is, apparently CCW's idea of a new Clojure project is simply a new Java project that has the clojure and clojure.contrib jars as preconfigured dependencies. No menu options exist to create a new Clojure namespace .clj file, It does. You should see an option Clojure File in the File Create new menu. If not, then probably there's a problem with the java perspective not being refreshed. That's more annoying now that people will more and more use the Eclipse integrated market place to install ccw, and thus not follow the quick install guide which explicitly says Go to menu Window Reset Perspective ... Will you please file an issue for this ? nor to create a REPL using the project dependencies, Not true. Select any clj file of your project, or select the project's node, and trigger the Run Clojure Application command. Please note that you have installed the stable version of CCW, version 0.0.64, and that in this version the REPL is working, but featureless. well, featureless is a bit rude. I meant it does not have advanced feature, but it's certainly working. If you want to help test future 0.2.0 version of CCW, you'll need to remove version 0.0.64, and install the alternate feature from the ccw update site : * first uninstall CCW 0.0.64: Menu Help About Eclipse Installation Detail [Select Counterclockwise .., click Uninstall...] * follow the manual steps listed here http://www.assembla.com/wiki/show/clojure/Getting_Started_with_Eclipse_and_Counterclockwise * but instead of installing version 0.0.64, go to the ... Release candidates version category and check Counterclockwise Feature REPL UI Branch version 0.2.0.RC04 unlike the case with Enclojure; just the usual Java options for generating Java class and interface files, etc. (I examined the main menus and the right-click menus for the Clojure project object and its src folder; no dice. I also clicked the change-perspective gadget after noticing it indicating a Java perspective, to see if there was a separate Clojure perspective to change to, which might make the desired options appear in the interface; also no dice.) I have good news for you: ccw documentation is linked from the main page of the counterclockwise project, in the Quick links section, and it's neither a pdf neither a video, plain old wiki page: http://code.google.com/p/counterclockwise/wiki/Documentation HTH, -- Laurent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Getting started with Counterclockwise
On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 4:46 AM, Laurent PETIT laurent.pe...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, No menu options exist to create a new Clojure namespace .clj file, It does. You should see an option Clojure File in the File Create new menu. I don't. If not, then probably there's a problem with the java perspective not being refreshed. The install prompted me to restart Eclipse afterward, and I did do so. That's more annoying now that people will more and more use the Eclipse integrated market place to install ccw, and thus not follow the quick install guide which explicitly says Go to menu Window Reset Perspective ... Restarting Eclipse was presumably supposed to suffice. No quick install guide was presented to me on install. Will you please file an issue for this ? I don't have an account there, unless my gmail account is good for Google Code access. nor to create a REPL using the project dependencies, Not true. I saw this with my own eyes. Trust me. Select any clj file of your project, or select the project's node, and trigger the Run Clojure Application command. I don't recall seeing such a command. Also, wouldn't such a command attempt to run a genclass -main rather than a project REPL? If it actually does the latter then it is grievously mis-named. Please note that you have installed the stable version of CCW, version 0.0.64, and that in this version the REPL is working, but featureless. If you want to help test future 0.2.0 version of CCW, you'll need to remove version 0.0.64, and install the alternate feature from the ccw update site : * first uninstall CCW 0.0.64: Menu Help About Eclipse Installation Detail [Select Counterclockwise .., click Uninstall...] * follow the manual steps listed here http://www.assembla.com/wiki/show/clojure/Getting_Started_with_Eclipse_and_Counterclockwise * but instead of installing version 0.0.64, go to the ... Release candidates version category and check Counterclockwise Feature REPL UI Branch version 0.2.0.RC04 Sounds like a rather awkward procedure. Nobody much will try your beta version if a) it isn't advertised *anywhere*, so nobody even knows it exists, b) it requires a complicated procedure to install instead of point at something and click, and c) the so-called stable version does not seem to completely work properly out-of-the-box. I also clicked the change-perspective gadget after noticing it indicating a Java perspective, to see if there was a separate Clojure perspective to change to, which might make the desired options appear in the interface; also no dice.) I have good news for you: ccw documentation is linked from the main page of the counterclockwise project, in the Quick links section, and it's neither a pdf neither a video, plain old wiki page: http://code.google.com/p/counterclockwise/wiki/Documentation That's a bit snarky. But no-one should have to read the documentation just to get it installed and to locate and use the most obvious features that have direct parallels in Enclojure. In particular, no-one has to with Enclojure. If there are extra install steps beyond install and restart IDE then there shouldn't be; if there are menu items whose names are misleading they should be renamed; etc. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Getting started with Counterclockwise
2011/1/18 Ken Wesson kwess...@gmail.com On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 4:46 AM, Laurent PETIT laurent.pe...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, No menu options exist to create a new Clojure namespace .clj file, It does. You should see an option Clojure File in the File Create new menu. I don't. If not, then probably there's a problem with the java perspective not being refreshed. The install prompted me to restart Eclipse afterward, and I did do so. That's more annoying now that people will more and more use the Eclipse integrated market place to install ccw, and thus not follow the quick install guide which explicitly says Go to menu Window Reset Perspective ... Restarting Eclipse was presumably supposed to suffice. No quick install guide was presented to me on install. Will you please file an issue for this ? I don't have an account there, unless my gmail account is good for Google Code access. nor to create a REPL using the project dependencies, Not true. I saw this with my own eyes. Trust me. Select any clj file of your project, or select the project's node, and trigger the Run Clojure Application command. I don't recall seeing such a command. Also, wouldn't such a command attempt to run a genclass -main rather than a project REPL? If it actually does the latter then it is grievously mis-named. Please note that you have installed the stable version of CCW, version 0.0.64, and that in this version the REPL is working, but featureless. If you want to help test future 0.2.0 version of CCW, you'll need to remove version 0.0.64, and install the alternate feature from the ccw update site : * first uninstall CCW 0.0.64: Menu Help About Eclipse Installation Detail [Select Counterclockwise .., click Uninstall...] * follow the manual steps listed here http://www.assembla.com/wiki/show/clojure/Getting_Started_with_Eclipse_and_Counterclockwise * but instead of installing version 0.0.64, go to the ... Release candidates version category and check Counterclockwise Feature REPL UI Branch version 0.2.0.RC04 Sounds like a rather awkward procedure. Nobody much will try your beta version if a) it isn't advertised *anywhere*, so nobody even knows it exists, b) it requires a complicated procedure to install instead of point at something and click, and c) the so-called stable version does not seem to completely work properly out-of-the-box. I also clicked the change-perspective gadget after noticing it indicating a Java perspective, to see if there was a separate Clojure perspective to change to, which might make the desired options appear in the interface; also no dice.) I have good news for you: ccw documentation is linked from the main page of the counterclockwise project, in the Quick links section, and it's neither a pdf neither a video, plain old wiki page: http://code.google.com/p/counterclockwise/wiki/Documentation That's a bit snarky. But no-one should have to read the documentation just to get it installed and to locate and use the most obvious features that have direct parallels in Enclojure. In particular, no-one has to with Enclojure. If there are extra install steps beyond install and restart IDE then there shouldn't be; if there are menu items whose names are misleading they should be renamed; etc. You're reinforcing obvious statements. Now I'm tired today, so I'll stop feed you. Sorry, but that's best, or I'll get really upset. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Getting started with Counterclockwise
For what it's worth, I installed CCW on Eclipse Helios on Win7 yesterday and it works perfectly. Thanks Laurent! On Jan 18, 9:27 am, Laurent PETIT laurent.pe...@gmail.com wrote: 2011/1/18 Ken Wesson kwess...@gmail.com On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 4:46 AM, Laurent PETIT laurent.pe...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, No menu options exist to create a new Clojure namespace .clj file, It does. You should see an option Clojure File in the File Create new menu. I don't. If not, then probably there's a problem with the java perspective not being refreshed. The install prompted me to restart Eclipse afterward, and I did do so. That's more annoying now that people will more and more use the Eclipse integrated market place to install ccw, and thus not follow the quick install guide which explicitly says Go to menu Window Reset Perspective ... Restarting Eclipse was presumably supposed to suffice. No quick install guide was presented to me on install. Will you please file an issue for this ? I don't have an account there, unless my gmail account is good for Google Code access. nor to create a REPL using the project dependencies, Not true. I saw this with my own eyes. Trust me. Select any clj file of your project, or select the project's node, and trigger the Run Clojure Application command. I don't recall seeing such a command. Also, wouldn't such a command attempt to run a genclass -main rather than a project REPL? If it actually does the latter then it is grievously mis-named. Please note that you have installed the stable version of CCW, version 0.0.64, and that in this version the REPL is working, but featureless. If you want to help test future 0.2.0 version of CCW, you'll need to remove version 0.0.64, and install the alternate feature from the ccw update site : * first uninstall CCW 0.0.64: Menu Help About Eclipse Installation Detail [Select Counterclockwise .., click Uninstall...] * follow the manual steps listed here http://www.assembla.com/wiki/show/clojure/Getting_Started_with_Eclips... * but instead of installing version 0.0.64, go to the ... Release candidates version category and check Counterclockwise Feature REPL UI Branch version 0.2.0.RC04 Sounds like a rather awkward procedure. Nobody much will try your beta version if a) it isn't advertised *anywhere*, so nobody even knows it exists, b) it requires a complicated procedure to install instead of point at something and click, and c) the so-called stable version does not seem to completely work properly out-of-the-box. I also clicked the change-perspective gadget after noticing it indicating a Java perspective, to see if there was a separate Clojure perspective to change to, which might make the desired options appear in the interface; also no dice.) I have good news for you: ccw documentation is linked from the main page of the counterclockwise project, in the Quick links section, and it's neither a pdf neither a video, plain old wiki page: http://code.google.com/p/counterclockwise/wiki/Documentation That's a bit snarky. But no-one should have to read the documentation just to get it installed and to locate and use the most obvious features that have direct parallels in Enclojure. In particular, no-one has to with Enclojure. If there are extra install steps beyond install and restart IDE then there shouldn't be; if there are menu items whose names are misleading they should be renamed; etc. You're reinforcing obvious statements. Now I'm tired today, so I'll stop feed you. Sorry, but that's best, or I'll get really upset. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Getting started with Counterclockwise
On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 10:27 AM, Laurent PETIT laurent.pe...@gmail.com wrote: That's a bit snarky. But no-one should have to read the documentation just to get it installed and to locate and use the most obvious features that have direct parallels in Enclojure. In particular, no-one has to with Enclojure. If there are extra install steps beyond install and restart IDE then there shouldn't be; if there are menu items whose names are misleading they should be renamed; etc. You're reinforcing obvious statements. I'm sorry, but I was under the impression that you thought CCW was working perfectly. From your own words, however, at least one of the two problems I noted in the above paragraph, and possibly both, seem to be present, so I assumed you didn't realize that they meant that it was not really working perfectly after all, but had significant problems; that you were OK with those quirks, and didn't consider them to be the serious impediments to growing CCW's user base that they actually are. But since you now say you find those statements obvious I am mystified at your tone. If you're aware of a) those problems and b) that they are undesirable, you should not be surprised in the slightest if a user installs CCW and then reports exactly what I just did. If the install procedure doesn't present any apparent documentation (or add items to the Help menu) you shouldn't be surprised if nobody reads some documentation that's sitting at some assembla or Google Code URL that nothing in the download-and-install procedure ever pointed them to. Nor should you be surprised if a user or prospective user googling the project automatically ignores assembla, github, and Google Code links -- visiting one of those big complicated source-repository-and-issue-tracking sites first thing is jumping in the deep end. They might go there eventually if they use the software for a while and then decide they are knowledgeable enough to maybe contribute; until then, when they consider themselves only a user or potential-user of the software, every link for it at any of those domains will be perceived (correctly or otherwise) as having a low likelihood of being useful to them. And snarkily suggesting that the user was remiss in not Ring TFM when TFM was never presented to them during install, nor was a link to it ever presented to them during install, nor did either appear in the Help menu, nor is there a reasonably-highly-ranked Google hit for the software's name that very clearly is pointing at end-user documentation, AND the user was attempting to do something that ordinarily should not require Ring TFM but merely browsing the menus within the software's interface, seems silly to me. Now I'm tired today, so I'll stop feed you. I beg your pardon? Sorry to say this, but I think your English failed here, and in a way that doesn't allow for easy gleaning of your intended meaning. In particular I have no idea what word you intended where you put the word feed. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Getting started with Counterclockwise
On Jan 18, 2011, at 3:22 AM, Ken Wesson wrote: I could use the new-generic-file option to create files with the .clj extension and maybe I'd even get Clojure syntax highlighting and indenting in the editor if I did so; I didn't bother to check. Lack of any apparent way to launch a project REPL is a deal-breaker for me. FWIW, every single feature you mentioned as being missing I use every day. Clearly there's a problem (technical or otherwise), but I'm afraid I didn't see a question in your original email. If you have one (or many), please feel free to direct it to the ccw users' mailing list (@ http://groups.google.com/group/clojuredev-users ). Any tone you might have picked up from Laurent might be a reaction to your ranting about how ccw is apparently rubbish rather than asking for help. Tangentially, IMO it'd be nice if tooling troubleshooting discussions didn't hit this list at all, since there are presumably mailing lists and other forums specific to each toolset. Cheers, - Chas -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Getting started with Counterclockwise
On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 1:14 PM, Chas Emerick cemer...@snowtide.com wrote: Any tone you might have picked up from Laurent might be a reaction to your ranting about how ccw is apparently rubbish rather than asking for help. Well, excse me for assuming, quite reasonably, that if, after an install and restart during which no error messages appeared and subsequent to which create new Clojure project had appeared in the application menus, a feature, that if it existed should obviously be prominently featured in certain right-click menus, was not there, then it had not been implemented. :) Tangentially, IMO it'd be nice if tooling troubleshooting discussions didn't hit this list at all, since there are presumably mailing lists and other forums specific to each toolset. Your email is the first place that I encountered the url for any forum specific to CCW. Notably, this means that no such url showed up at any point during the process of obtaining, installing, and attempting to use CCW. Troubleshooting discussions for CCW might show up here less frequently if the existence, nevermind the location, of the list you mentioned was more apparent to new users. :) (And, of course, let's not forget that this didn't actually start as a troubleshooting discussion. As far as I was aware CCW was working properly but simply did not have (easy access to) certain functionality that I had expected. So I was reviewing a product/starting a feature-request discussion, not starting a troubleshooting discussion, as far as I knew at the time.) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Getting started with Counterclockwise
On Jan 18, 2011, at 2:01 PM, Ken Wesson wrote: Tangentially, IMO it'd be nice if tooling troubleshooting discussions didn't hit this list at all, since there are presumably mailing lists and other forums specific to each toolset. Your email is the first place that I encountered the url for any forum specific to CCW. Notably, this means that no such url showed up at any point during the process of obtaining, installing, and attempting to use CCW. Troubleshooting discussions for CCW might show up here less frequently if the existence, nevermind the location, of the list you mentioned was more apparent to new users. :) The links to the users' and developers' google groups for ccw are prominently linked on the right side of the ccw site: http://code.google.com/p/counterclockwise/ Cheers, - Chas -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Getting started with Counterclockwise
We have been using ccw for more than a year here. Never had significant problems with it nor with updates to it. We have been using Eclipse since 2002. Can you provide the plugin list from Eclipse ? (About - Installation details) Luc P. On Tue, 18 Jan 2011 10:21:50 -0500 Ken Wesson kwess...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 4:46 AM, Laurent PETIT laurent.pe...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, No menu options exist to create a new Clojure namespace .clj file, It does. You should see an option Clojure File in the File Create new menu. I don't. If not, then probably there's a problem with the java perspective not being refreshed. The install prompted me to restart Eclipse afterward, and I did do so. That's more annoying now that people will more and more use the Eclipse integrated market place to install ccw, and thus not follow the quick install guide which explicitly says Go to menu Window Reset Perspective ... Restarting Eclipse was presumably supposed to suffice. No quick install guide was presented to me on install. Will you please file an issue for this ? I don't have an account there, unless my gmail account is good for Google Code access. nor to create a REPL using the project dependencies, Not true. I saw this with my own eyes. Trust me. Select any clj file of your project, or select the project's node, and trigger the Run Clojure Application command. I don't recall seeing such a command. Also, wouldn't such a command attempt to run a genclass -main rather than a project REPL? If it actually does the latter then it is grievously mis-named. Please note that you have installed the stable version of CCW, version 0.0.64, and that in this version the REPL is working, but featureless. If you want to help test future 0.2.0 version of CCW, you'll need to remove version 0.0.64, and install the alternate feature from the ccw update site : * first uninstall CCW 0.0.64: Menu Help About Eclipse Installation Detail [Select Counterclockwise .., click Uninstall...] * follow the manual steps listed here http://www.assembla.com/wiki/show/clojure/Getting_Started_with_Eclipse_and_Counterclockwise * but instead of installing version 0.0.64, go to the ... Release candidates version category and check Counterclockwise Feature REPL UI Branch version 0.2.0.RC04 Sounds like a rather awkward procedure. Nobody much will try your beta version if a) it isn't advertised *anywhere*, so nobody even knows it exists, b) it requires a complicated procedure to install instead of point at something and click, and c) the so-called stable version does not seem to completely work properly out-of-the-box. I also clicked the change-perspective gadget after noticing it indicating a Java perspective, to see if there was a separate Clojure perspective to change to, which might make the desired options appear in the interface; also no dice.) I have good news for you: ccw documentation is linked from the main page of the counterclockwise project, in the Quick links section, and it's neither a pdf neither a video, plain old wiki page: http://code.google.com/p/counterclockwise/wiki/Documentation That's a bit snarky. But no-one should have to read the documentation just to get it installed and to locate and use the most obvious features that have direct parallels in Enclojure. In particular, no-one has to with Enclojure. If there are extra install steps beyond install and restart IDE then there shouldn't be; if there are menu items whose names are misleading they should be renamed; etc. -- Luc P. The rabid Muppet -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Getting started with Counterclockwise
On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 3:45 PM, Chas Emerick cemer...@snowtide.com wrote: On Jan 18, 2011, at 2:01 PM, Ken Wesson wrote: Tangentially, IMO it'd be nice if tooling troubleshooting discussions didn't hit this list at all, since there are presumably mailing lists and other forums specific to each toolset. Your email is the first place that I encountered the url for any forum specific to CCW. Notably, this means that no such url showed up at any point during the process of obtaining, installing, and attempting to use CCW. Troubleshooting discussions for CCW might show up here less frequently if the existence, nevermind the location, of the list you mentioned was more apparent to new users. :) The links to the users' and developers' google groups for ccw are prominently linked on the right side of the ccw site: http://code.google.com/p/counterclockwise/ Ah. That would be the site that most prospective users will assume is a developer-centric site. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Getting started with Counterclockwise
On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 6:28 PM, Luc Prefontaine lprefonta...@softaddicts.ca wrote: We have been using ccw for more than a year here. Never had significant problems with it nor with updates to it. We have been using Eclipse since 2002. Can you provide the plugin list from Eclipse ? (About - Installation details) It was a clean install of Eclipse followed by CCW, so there wouldn't have been anything unusual in there. If CCW interacted badly with anything else, it was something that one gets by default if installing Eclipse for Java development. Which in turn is bad news, if so. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Getting started with Counterclockwise
On Jan 18, 9:14 pm, Ken Wesson kwess...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 3:45 PM, Chas Emerick cemer...@snowtide.com wrote: On Jan 18, 2011, at 2:01 PM, Ken Wesson wrote: Tangentially, IMO it'd be nice if tooling troubleshooting discussions didn't hit this list at all, since there are presumably mailing lists and other forums specific to each toolset. Your email is the first place that I encountered the url for any forum specific to CCW. Notably, this means that no such url showed up at any point during the process of obtaining, installing, and attempting to use CCW. Troubleshooting discussions for CCW might show up here less frequently if the existence, nevermind the location, of the list you mentioned was more apparent to new users. :) The links to the users' and developers' google groups for ccw are prominently linked on the right side of the ccw site: http://code.google.com/p/counterclockwise/ Ah. That would be the site that most prospective users will assume is a developer-centric site. The fourth link under Quick Links on the Project Home tab reads Users google group and the fifth reads Developers google group. I think that it is fairly clear which one is for users. YMMV. Best regards, Brian Cooley -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Getting started with Counterclockwise
On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 10:36 PM, blcooley blcoo...@gmail.com wrote: On Jan 18, 9:14 pm, Ken Wesson kwess...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 3:45 PM, Chas Emerick cemer...@snowtide.com wrote: The links to the users' and developers' google groups for ccw are prominently linked on the right side of the ccw site: http://code.google.com/p/counterclockwise/ Ah. That would be the site that most prospective users will assume is a developer-centric site. The fourth link under Quick Links on the Project Home tab reads Users google group and the fifth reads Developers google group. I think that it is fairly clear which one is for users. YMMV. Those would be links nobody will see if they don't click from the SERP to http://code.google.com/p/counterclockwise/ in the first place because THAT link looks like it will just lead to content aimed at CCW's developers. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Getting started with Counterclockwise
Hi, On 19 Jan., 00:28, Luc Prefontaine lprefonta...@softaddicts.ca wrote: Can you provide the plugin list from Eclipse ? (About - Installation details) A while back I ran into a similar problem: a fresh install of eclipse + only ccw didn't work on my machine. Mysteriously using the same files for eclipse and ccw on a different machine worked as advertised. I contacted Laurent and he helped me tracking down the problem, but we quickly ran out of ideas and couldn't fix the issue. So maybe it's just bad karma... Sincerely Meikel -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
