Re: better community docs: getting started
On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 9:14 PM, Ken Wesson kwess...@gmail.com wrote: Under 2) would be a guide for setting up Emacs (immediately divided into Mac, Windows, Linux). At the end would be a list of alternative options: Eclipse, Netbeans, IntelliJ, etc. No. No, no, no, no, no! That will kill 90% of the people that try it as potential future Clojurians. They'll install emacs, try to use it, throw keyboards out windows and mice through monitors, say What? Huh? WTF is this shit!? For once I'm in complete agreement with Ken - trying to push Emacs as the recommended editor for Clojure would be a disaster! We need to be very clear that pretty much whatever IDE / editor you use today can be used for Clojure. Having the Getting Clojure section focus on Leiningen to handle dependencies, run a REPL and run Clojure scripts (with a -main function) is a great way to get people started. I do not think we should attempt a recommended IDE (not even Clooj). We should offer a path for all existing IDEs / editors. If you're an Eclipse user, try CCW. If you're an existing Emacs user, here's how to configure it for Clojure. If you're a TextMate user, here's the Clojure bundle. And so on. Use an editor not listed here? Try Clooj (i.e., use this as a simple catch-all if we haven't covered what you already used today). Sean -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: clojure.contrib.profile crashes
Hi Aaron Bedra,
Thanks for your quick response. Sorry I could not get back to you with the
information you asked for sooner..
I am using
user *clojure-version*
{:major 1, :minor 2, :incremental 1, :qualifier }
My project.clj is as follows...
(defproject bitvector 1.0.0-SNAPSHOT
:description FIXME: write description
:dependencies [[org.clojure/clojure 1.2.1]
[org.clojure/clojure-contrib 1.2.0]
[clj-iterate 0.95-SNAPSHOT]]
:dev-dependencies [[swank-clojure 1.4.0-SNAPSHOT]
[clojure-source 1.2.1]]
:main bitvector.core)
do you have any idea why I am getting this out of range thing when I use
clojure.contrib.profile?
Thanks again,
Sunil.
On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 4:51 AM, Aaron Bedra aaron.be...@gmail.com wrote:
**
What version of Clojure are you running?
Cheers,
Aaron Bedra
--
Clojure/core
http://clojure.com
On 07/21/2011 06:12 PM, Sunil S Nandihalli wrote:
The reason I am not posting the code is because I am not able to reproduce
this on a simple case. I was just hoping some of you may have some insight
with out the code..
Thanks,
Sunil.
On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 3:29 AM, Sunil S Nandihalli
sunil.nandiha...@gmail.com wrote:
Hello everybody,
I have used the profiler successfully in the past. But some how it is
repeatedly crashing with the following stack trace.
Value out of range for int: 17069635385
[Thrown class java.lang.IllegalArgumentException]
Restarts:
0: [QUIT] Quit to the SLIME top level
Backtrace:
0: clojure.lang.RT.intCast(RT.java:950)
1: clojure.lang.RT.intCast(RT.java:922)
2: clojure.contrib.profile$summarize$fn__3252.invoke(profile.clj:88)
3: clojure.core$r.invoke(core.clj:799)
4: clojure.contrib.profile$summarize.invoke(profile.clj:85)
5: bitvector.core$eval4530.invoke(NO_SOURCE_FILE:1)
6: clojure.lang.Compiler.eval(Compiler.java:5424)
7: clojure.lang.Compiler.eval(Compiler.java:5391)
8: clojure.core$eval.invoke(core.clj:2382)
9: swank.core$eval650$fn__651.invoke(core.clj:409)
10: clojure.lang.MultiFn.invoke(MultiFn.java:163)
.
.
.
.
Before I bother you all with actual code which might get messy, does
anybody have any suggestion as to why this is happening..?
Thanks,
Sunil.
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Re: clojure.contrib.profile crashes
here is the list of jar files in my lib directory
github@eagle ~/bitvector/lib#tree
.
|-- clj-iterate-0.95-20110417.030036-2.jar
|-- clojure-1.2.1.jar
|-- clojure-contrib-1.2.0.jar
`-- dev
|-- cdt-1.2.6.1-20110417.030036-6.jar
|-- clojure-1.2.1.jar
|-- clojure-contrib-1.2.0.jar
|-- clojure-source-1.2.1.jar
|-- debug-repl-0.3.1.jar
`-- swank-clojure-1.4.0-20110601.165758-9.jar
1 directory, 9 files
On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 12:10 PM, Sunil S Nandihalli
sunil.nandiha...@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Aaron Bedra,
Thanks for your quick response. Sorry I could not get back to you with the
information you asked for sooner..
I am using
user *clojure-version*
{:major 1, :minor 2, :incremental 1, :qualifier }
My project.clj is as follows...
(defproject bitvector 1.0.0-SNAPSHOT
:description FIXME: write description
:dependencies [[org.clojure/clojure 1.2.1]
[org.clojure/clojure-contrib 1.2.0]
[clj-iterate 0.95-SNAPSHOT]]
:dev-dependencies [[swank-clojure 1.4.0-SNAPSHOT]
[clojure-source 1.2.1]]
:main bitvector.core)
do you have any idea why I am getting this out of range thing when I use
clojure.contrib.profile?
Thanks again,
Sunil.
On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 4:51 AM, Aaron Bedra aaron.be...@gmail.comwrote:
**
What version of Clojure are you running?
Cheers,
Aaron Bedra
--
Clojure/core
http://clojure.com
On 07/21/2011 06:12 PM, Sunil S Nandihalli wrote:
The reason I am not posting the code is because I am not able to reproduce
this on a simple case. I was just hoping some of you may have some insight
with out the code..
Thanks,
Sunil.
On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 3:29 AM, Sunil S Nandihalli
sunil.nandiha...@gmail.com wrote:
Hello everybody,
I have used the profiler successfully in the past. But some how it is
repeatedly crashing with the following stack trace.
Value out of range for int: 17069635385
[Thrown class java.lang.IllegalArgumentException]
Restarts:
0: [QUIT] Quit to the SLIME top level
Backtrace:
0: clojure.lang.RT.intCast(RT.java:950)
1: clojure.lang.RT.intCast(RT.java:922)
2: clojure.contrib.profile$summarize$fn__3252.invoke(profile.clj:88)
3: clojure.core$r.invoke(core.clj:799)
4: clojure.contrib.profile$summarize.invoke(profile.clj:85)
5: bitvector.core$eval4530.invoke(NO_SOURCE_FILE:1)
6: clojure.lang.Compiler.eval(Compiler.java:5424)
7: clojure.lang.Compiler.eval(Compiler.java:5391)
8: clojure.core$eval.invoke(core.clj:2382)
9: swank.core$eval650$fn__651.invoke(core.clj:409)
10: clojure.lang.MultiFn.invoke(MultiFn.java:163)
.
.
.
.
Before I bother you all with actual code which might get messy, does
anybody have any suggestion as to why this is happening..?
Thanks,
Sunil.
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Re: Clojure number crunching win ! was Re: Needing type hinting help for number crunching
Sean Corfield seancorfi...@gmail.com writes:
Hi Sean,
If you specify the Sonatype snapshots repository, you can pull nightly
builds:
:repositories { sonatype { :url
https://oss.sonatype.org/content/repositories/snapshots; } }
:dependencies [[org.clojure/clojure 1.3.0-master-SNAPSHOT]]
That just pulled clojure-1.3.0-master-20110622.000355-98.jar which is
the most recent nightly build according to build.clojure.org.
Hey, great. Until now, I've built my own snapshots, because the
official snapshots are out of date. The only issue is that with the
repo above, version ranges don't work. If I say
:dependencies [[org.clojure/clojure [1.3.0-master-SNAPSHOT,)]]
aka 1.3.0 snapshot or better, lein deps force tries getting a
org.clojure:clojure:jar:1.3.0-testbuild9-SNAPSHOT and fails checksuming
(at least that is what maven wants to tell me...):
[WARNING] *** CHECKSUM FAILED - Checksum failed on download: local =
'88bbc831eaafdd9895f27debc95446618ac82a79'; remote =
'92472231000f7b66ebf43cb412c74b4ba3cd7277' - RETRYING
[WARNING] *** CHECKSUM FAILED - Checksum failed on download: local =
'88bbc831eaafdd9895f27debc95446618ac82a79'; remote =
'92472231000f7b66ebf43cb412c74b4ba3cd7277' - IGNORING
Bye,
Tassilo
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Re: better community docs: getting started
I do not think we should attempt a recommended IDE (not even Clooj). We should offer a path for all existing IDEs / editors. ... Use an editor not listed here? Try Clooj (i.e., use this as a simple catch-all if we haven't covered what you already used today). That's one way of organizing it. The slightly serious explorer will of course pick setup documentation for their favorite IDE/editor, and that should be provided. But think of the casual dev wanting to know what Clojure and a typical Clojure toolchain can do for her ASAP. Most Java devs have never used a repl-aware edit buffer, something most of us take for granted. No common IDE/editor setup can expose her to a lisp-style toolchain in a single click. None. For usability, nothing beats the single-click. In seconds, Clooj gives her a one-stop-shop. So I see Clooj as something worth putting right along with try-clojure.org. It not only showcases Clojure, but is rapid exposure to the lisp-style toolchain. That's why I would give Clooj some prominence rather than burying it at the bottom of the decision tree. Anyone knowing what they're looking for will of course move on to the setup of their preference (emacs,vi,eclipse), so they don't lose anything. But the neophyte who doesn't know what they're looking for should have the lowest barrier to entry possible - usability. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Why is this code so slow?
On Jul 23, 4:06 pm, Dmitry Gutov raa...@gmail.com wrote:
Ahem.
Here is a more idiomatic version that runs under half a second, no
annotations required.
I did that from the beginning, but as I really needed 4e6 and not 1e5
elements, that map got very big. And I didn't remember the argument to
give java more memory. Also I was just curious to see what arrays did
to the performance. However, my code that looked like that was slow
too. I used Clojure 1.2.0. Are you using 1.3.0?
(def vs (atom {}))
(defn sk [k]
(if (@vs k)
(@vs k)
(let [ans (if ( k 56)
(- (mod (+ 13 (- (* k 23)) (* 37 k k k))
100) 50)
(- (mod (+ (sk (- k 24))
(sk (- k 55))) 100)
50))]
(do (swap! vs assoc k ans)
ans
user (reset! vs {})
{}
user (time (dorun (map sk (range 10
Elapsed time: 155.082351 msecs
nil
I guess the moral is that the built-in data structures are quite fast,
and reflection is evil.
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Re: better community docs: getting started
On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 12:28 AM, pmbauer paul.michael.ba...@gmail.com wrote: +1 on clooj. One click and you have a working build environment, REPL, and REPL-aware editor. https://github.com/downloads/arthuredelstein/clooj/clooj-0.1.5-standalone.jar This URL is somewhat unfortunate. For some reason, both https://github.com/downloads/arthuredelstein/clooj/ and https://github.com/downloads/arthuredelstein/ give 404 pages, so it's not possible to use .. walking to get to the parent node -- i.e., Edelstein's Clooj page as a whole, and then Edelstein's everything-including-Clooj page. That's poor URL design, but it's probably not Edelstein's fault, but rather github's. I'd argue that this is another reason for having separate sites for projects, sites hosted away from places like sourceforge and github (but linking to those); a generic web host will let you use a better URL structure so people who, say, only see your download link posted somewhere and want to read more before committing to downloading anything can just chop the last segment off your URL and read away. -- Protege: What is this seething mass of parentheses?! Master: Your father's Lisp REPL. This is the language of a true hacker. Not as clumsy or random as C++; a language for a more civilized age. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: better community docs: getting started
Yep, Github URLs suck like that. FWIW this is probably close what you're looking for: https://github.com/arthuredelstein/clooj/downloads Ambrose -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: better community docs: getting started
ClojureScript release has changed things now and I guess that getting started with ClojureScript will probably change as it gets closer to a release. But anyway, I suggest a getting started page along these lines: * *Meet Clojure* - Try Clojure online http://try-clojure.org/ or on your machinehttps://github.com/arthuredelstein/clooj/downloadswhile reading this Introductory Article. // the article should actually point to an updated copy of the ociweb article - For further education: * Links to four or five introductory videos * Thumbnails of the each of the Clojure book covers that link to Amazon. Note: - The link to CLOOJ should not point to github but to CLOOJ website which I hope it would develop to be a Racket like environment (probably with teach packs or an integrated Teaching Lab - labrepl). - CLOOJ needs a step-by-step tutorial to build a simple application. The idea is to get the workflow of developing using a REPL and moving to application files, build and get a running jar. * *Experienced* *Programmers*: Build your first application with your favorite - IDE: Eclipse, NetBeans, JetBrains IDEAJ. (each is an icon of the IDE and links to a separate page that directs to the respective IDE addon and other tools if needed). - Editor: Emacs, Vim, (other editors?). (again, each is an icon of the editor and links to a separate page). The articles for IDEs and editors should flow like the development workflow and ask the user to download and install the necessary tools he will need along the way to get a complete simple application. These articles should refer to each other and should actually repeat the information as if the other articles do not exist. Furthermore, they will point to articles about lein, cake, maven and other tools and why they need them but these later ones shouldn't be top level articles. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: better community docs: getting started
I just thought - Java Webstart based clooj direct from try-clojure.org. Mark On 25/07/2011, at 6:51 PM, pmbauer wrote: For usability, nothing beats the single-click. In seconds, Clooj gives her a one-stop-shop. So I see Clooj as something worth putting right along with try-clojure.org. It not only showcases Clojure, but is rapid exposure to the lisp-style toolchain. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Alright, fess up, who's unhappy with clojurescript?
Oracle announced/talked about Nashorn at the recent JVM Languages summit, this is an Invoke Dynamic based Javascript runtime which is (aiming) for inclusion in JDK8. I do so hope however that someone manages to pull that out for a lets run this NOW on Java 7 as that would be a great improvement over rhino. On 25/07/2011, at 3:54 AM, Stuart Halloway wrote: Rhino is an implementation detail of the development platform. That implementation detail could and probably should change. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: better community docs: getting started
On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 11:51 PM, pmbauer paul.michael.ba...@gmail.com wrote: But think of the casual dev wanting to know what Clojure and a typical Clojure toolchain can do for her ASAP. I find it hard to imagine a casual dev that doesn't already have a preferred editor - but I'm certainly not averse to promoting Clooj to folks who don't have a strong IDE predilection. Most Java devs have never used a repl-aware edit buffer, something most of us take for granted. Most Java devs have a strong affinity for a specific IDE tho'... That's why I would give Clooj some prominence rather than burying it at the bottom of the decision tree. Well, then put it at the top with the tag line If you don't have a strong affinity for a specific IDE or editor, why not try Clooj which is a simple, lightweight editor focused on Clojure? Otherwise see the options below for adding Clojure support to your favorite IDE... -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ World Singles, LLC. -- http://worldsingles.com/ Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://www.getrailo.com/ Perfection is the enemy of the good. -- Gustave Flaubert, French realist novelist (1821-1880) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure number crunching win ! was Re: Needing type hinting help for number crunching
On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 11:45 PM, Tassilo Horn tass...@member.fsf.org wrote: The only issue is that with the repo above, version ranges don't work. If I say :dependencies [[org.clojure/clojure [1.3.0-master-SNAPSHOT,)]] Your Maven-fu is far off the scale - I didn't even know that kind of thing should be possible :) I use Leiningen specifically to avoid having to learn that sort of stuff... -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ World Singles, LLC. -- http://worldsingles.com/ Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://www.getrailo.com/ Perfection is the enemy of the good. -- Gustave Flaubert, French realist novelist (1821-1880) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: better community docs: getting started
I just thought - Java Webstart based clooj direct from try-clojure.org. On 25/07/2011, at 6:51 PM, pmbauer wrote: For usability, nothing beats the single-click. In seconds, Clooj gives her a one-stop-shop. So I see Clooj as something worth putting right along with try-clojure.org. It not only showcases Clojure, but is rapid exposure to the lisp-style toolchain. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: clojurescript development workflow
On 24 Jul 2011, at 23:10, Eric Lavigne wrote: Also, look for a recent post by Peter Taoussanis. It sounds like he has come up with a very good workflow for ClojureScript development. That certainly looks very interesting and exactly the kind of thing I was looking for. Also, with respect to the lack of ability to interact with the browser directly through the REPL or editor like with emacs-swank-slime, is it fair to assume that this is just due to the current implementation being Rhino-based? Also ClojureScript doesn't support eval, I'm assuming JavaScript does - otherwise we wouldn't have so many AJAX tricks where websites spit bits of js at the browser to manipulate the dom. I'm therefore wondering if it will eventually be possible to spit fragments of compiled ClojureScript at a browser to do similar things? Sam --- http://sam.aaron.name -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: better community docs: getting started
On 25 July 2011 09:41, Sean Corfield seancorfi...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 11:51 PM, pmbauer paul.michael.ba...@gmail.com wrote: [...] That's why I would give Clooj some prominence rather than burying it at the bottom of the decision tree. Well, then put it at the top with the tag line If you don't have a strong affinity for a specific IDE or editor, why not try Clooj which is a simple, lightweight editor focused on Clojure? Otherwise see the options below for adding Clojure support to your favorite IDE... +1 -- Michael Wood esiot...@gmail.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: better community docs: getting started
* *Meet Clojure* That's also an upcoming book on Clojure: http://meetclj.raynes.me/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Alright, fess up, who's unhappy with clojurescript?
Absolutely nothing to add to the argument as such except to say that I am quite surprised at the level of resistance to James' thread. I can see the argument if this was the 'dev' mailing list. I have been reading this mailing list for a long while now (even if I haven't contributed much to it) but if this had been the first post I had read I would have a very negative opinion of the *clojure community*. It comes off as sounding like if you don't like what we do, go away - it is our way or the highway, which would be a terrible shame as I don't *think* that is the case? If I wanted that atmosphere there are plenty of other places to go. Sure, I get that James' email didn't really provide any points of discussion, it was more a moan (sorry James ;)), but so what - I don't see anybody shooting down ClojureScript - I love it type posts. And maybe a better response would be asking OK, this guy clearly doesn't get it - how can we improve our communication? Rich - we are *all* grateful and I expect I am not alone in being amazed at the technical marvel you have pulled out of the hat. But to be honest I think you need a thicker skin. Getting your strokes from the mailing list is dangerous at best. To be disheartened by one negative post in the midst of positive votes is a bit worrying. If this mailing list is for the community to discuss Clojure and ask Clojurians for help then these responses were inappropriate. If this mailing list is to big up Clojure then fine - but make that explicit. Col (surprisingly disappointed and feels strongly enough to send this at the risk of being called a troll himself!) P.S. Strongly opinionated communities that shoots down criticisms of the great leaders' achievements is unfortunately not breaking new ground - so stop this :) and move onto the next ground breaking tool! On 25 July 2011 08:38, Mark Derricutt m...@talios.com wrote: Oracle announced/talked about Nashorn at the recent JVM Languages summit, this is an Invoke Dynamic based Javascript runtime which is (aiming) for inclusion in JDK8. I do so hope however that someone manages to pull that out for a lets run this NOW on Java 7 as that would be a great improvement over rhino. On 25/07/2011, at 3:54 AM, Stuart Halloway wrote: Rhino is an implementation detail of the development platform. That implementation detail could and probably should change. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Alright, fess up, who's unhappy with clojurescript?
On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 5:08 AM, Colin Yates colin.ya...@gmail.com wrote: Absolutely nothing to add to the argument as such except to say that I am quite surprised at the level of resistance to James' thread. I can see the argument if this was the 'dev' mailing list. I have been reading this mailing list for a long while now (even if I haven't contributed much to it) but if this had been the first post I had read I would have a very negative opinion of the *clojure community*. It comes off as sounding like if you don't like what we do, go away - it is our way or the highway, which would be a terrible shame as I don't *think* that is the case? If I wanted that atmosphere there are plenty of other places to go. Sure, I get that James' email didn't really provide any points of discussion, it was more a moan (sorry James ;)), but so what - I don't see anybody shooting down ClojureScript - I love it type posts. And maybe a better response would be asking OK, this guy clearly doesn't get it - how can we improve our communication? Rich - we are *all* grateful and I expect I am not alone in being amazed at the technical marvel you have pulled out of the hat. But to be honest I think you need a thicker skin. Getting your strokes from the mailing list is dangerous at best. To be disheartened by one negative post in the midst of positive votes is a bit worrying. If this mailing list is for the community to discuss Clojure and ask Clojurians for help then these responses were inappropriate. If this mailing list is to big up Clojure then fine - but make that explicit. Col (surprisingly disappointed and feels strongly enough to send this at the risk of being called a troll himself!) P.S. Strongly opinionated communities that shoots down criticisms of the great leaders' achievements is unfortunately not breaking new ground - so stop this :) and move onto the next ground breaking tool! +1 to all of that. -- Protege: What is this seething mass of parentheses?! Master: Your father's Lisp REPL. This is the language of a true hacker. Not as clumsy or random as C++; a language for a more civilized age. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Why is this code so slow?
Clojure 1.2.1 here. 4e6 takes about 10 seconds, the process uses ~500Mb of RAM. `lein repl` is fine with that. Python takes 5, but that's acceptable difference, I think, considering we're talking immutable vs mutable here. If you still have the old code, I'd like to take a look. On Jul 25, 10:54 am, Oskar oskar.kv...@gmail.com wrote: On Jul 23, 4:06 pm, Dmitry Gutov raa...@gmail.com wrote: Ahem. Here is a more idiomatic version that runs under half a second, no annotations required. I did that from the beginning, but as I really needed 4e6 and not 1e5 elements, that map got very big. And I didn't remember the argument to give java more memory. Also I was just curious to see what arrays did to the performance. However, my code that looked like that was slow too. I used Clojure 1.2.0. Are you using 1.3.0? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Alright, fess up, who's unhappy with clojurescript?
Clojure newcomer here, but here's the thought that's frontmost in my mind about ClojureScript... I'm used to Clojure as a language that's solidly spot-welded to the JVM and the Java libraries. Just as [1 2 3] is legal portable Clojure code, so is (.start (Thread. #(...))) despite it being a blatant set of calls into Java, and so are the various Java-leaning reflection features. I think ClojureScript is a great piece of work, but I'm not sure what this means for language standardisation or portability. Is it still real Clojure? Clearly I can write programs, or distribute libraries, which run on one but not the other. Similarly, I'm sure there are common chunks of functionality (although I'm not enough of a JS programmer to suggest any) which are pretty crucial to some programs written in either Clojure but implemented differently. ClojureScript is still missing key parts of Clojure (e.g. agents) making even non- Java-ish programs non(-yet)-portable. I guess I'm interested in the road map, if any: are things heading towards some kind of common ClojureCore specification with ClojureJava and ClojureScript both supersets of this? What are the ramifications for library distribution? Or are Clojure Classic and ClojureScript different systems for different environments? In which case, what mileage is there in identifying and specifying the overlapping and identical areas and transparently developing for both? Sorry if the questions are stupid... I'm looking forward to having a good solid session with ClojureScript in a browser near me soon. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Alright, fess up, who's unhappy with clojurescript?
Right, Rich, please allow me to reply to the points you mentioned; I declined from doing so last night as I sensed some unintentionally irritated feelings, which I hope have eased a bit by now. I believe all my posts in this discussion are purely technical concerns and I believe them to be valid. I am most definitely not a troll as some have suggested; I would've had to do a ridiculous amount of homework over a long, long period of time and been a psychic to predict this event (I've only found out clojurescript in the past couple of days), and I do not believe in any way I'm making an attempt at humor in the technical arguments I'm making. On Jul 24, 10:28 pm, Rich Hickey richhic...@gmail.com wrote: On Jul 24, 11:19 am, James Keats james.w.ke...@gmail.com wrote: Alright, to be honest, I'm disappointed. I'll make sure you get a refund then. Seriously, this is like being disappointed an action movie was an action movie instead of a comedy. Your expectations are a complete mismatch for the intentions of ClojureScript. clojure's rocks... javascript reaches First of all, congrats and good job to all involved in putting it out. On the plus side, it's a good way to use the Google Closure javascript platform. On the minus, imho, that's what's wrong with it. Google Closure is too Java. Actually, it's too JavaScript. Some JS proponents want to disavow its pseudo class model, but it certainly is part of the design of JavaScript. And it has some particular advantages over the other strategies, as outlined here: http://bolinfest.com/javascript/inheritance.php Rich, the pseudo class model with the new keyword is a syntactic obfuscation, semantically javascript is prototypical inheritance. It's class free. In addition to the pseudo class inheritance advocated by google closure and the prototypical inherent in javascript, others like Doug Crockford advocated functional inheritance. Now I have watched and read enough of your output and for example Stuart Holloways talk about protocols to know that you've railed in your adovacy of clojure against classes and inheritance, and find it ironic that now you posit a link by an advocate of it citing it as advantageous. In any case, as I've mentioned, I have been aware of this article for nearly a year now, it failed to convince me back then and it still does; most of the arguments in it concern the closure compiler, an obeisance to which by the regular developer who doesn't have the needs and resources of google, I feel in this day and age of ample memory and bandwidth and fast javascript engines, is premature optimization gone berserk (seriously, folks, people are streaming HD video, 1.5 gbps fiber optic broadband is being rolled out in London and soon other cities worldwide and 4G mobiles are upon and we're fretting over mere tens of KB that gets cached after first time and basing our development around minimizing it?!), and the remainder of the arguments are in support of classes and inheritance. It's not idiomatic JavaScript. There's no such thing as idiomatic JavaScript. There are a lot of different conventions used by different libraries. The Javascript community - the vast majority of which - after a decade and a half now of experience with the language has come to regard some aspect of it as good and others as problematic; things like functional programming and object literals (akin to clojure's maps/structs/ records) vs classical inheritance, which are positions you yourself have taken and advocated. I find it disappointing that rather than porting from a functional language like Clojure straight to another functional language like Javascript, the google closure with its ugly Java-isms is right there obnoxiously in the middle. In the middle of what? I look at ClojureScript code and it looks like Clojure to me. Google Closure is under, and it is no more annoying there than Java is under Clojure - an implementation detail, and a rich source of production-quality code. I respectfully dispute that; for what they both do - dom, css, ajax, events, cookies, ui, effects, animations etc - jquery does it far better and is much more pleasant an api. What jquery itself doesn't do the huge ecosphere of libs around it do, for example: http://metajack.im/2009/03/13/jquery-and-strophe-made-for-each-other/ http://strophe.im/ Then, there's the elephant in the room, and that elephant is Jquery. I believe any targetting-javascript tool that misses out on jquery-first- and-foremost is missing out on the realities of javascript in 2011. Should it be the purpose of a new language like ClojureScript to orient itself around the realities of currently popular JavaScript libraries? I think not. If you want jQuery as the center of your universe, JavasScript is your language - good luck with it. I see jQuery as a tool to be leveraged when appropriate (i.e. rarely in large programs), not an architectural centerpiece.
Re: ClojureScript Questions
On Jul 25, 7:51 am, cljneo cljneoph...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, I have started reading about ClojureScript and Closure and had some questions which I am sure will eventually be answered as I move along. But I am too eager to know now so I thought of asking instead of waiting. - On page 2 of the Closure book, there is a workflow figure on using the Closure tools, how would ClojureScript change this workflow? It would be great to post such a modified diagram to the closure wiki. Identifing a workflow and implment good tools has just started there is no definit answer jet. - Clojure itself has web development stack (ring, compojure, enlive,...). Will some of these libraries be redundant in ClojureScript and will be useful only for web development in Clojure proper? Or they will still be useful but we will see ClojureScript versions of them. Depens if you use cljs on the client or on the serverside. Something like ring or compojure could probebly work on a serverside js implmentation but do not have a lot of use for JS on the clientside. Librarys like hiccup will probebly work just as well on the client. Its early days nobody know what will happen. Your best bet is to trie thing out and tell other people what helped you. - Are there any cases where using the current Clojure web development libraries would be better than using ClojureScript? I don't understand that Question. If you want to do Serverside programming regular Clojure is probebly still better then ClojureScript with Node.js (or something like that). The hole application with only Clojure as a language is possible if you programm the serverside with clojure and deliver ClojureScript to the client there is not really much redundency. Thanks -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure number crunching win ! was Re: Needing type hinting help for number crunching
On Jul 24, 2011, at 4:30 PM, Sean Corfield wrote:
On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 1:11 PM, bernardH
un.compte.pour.tes...@gmail.com wrote:
On Jul 24, 2:30 pm, Chas Emerick cemer...@snowtide.com wrote:
You should be using 1.3.0-beta1 of Clojure 1.3 -- anything with
-master-SNAPSHOT is woefully out of date at
this point.
Damned, I thought -master-SNAPSHOT was as snapshot of the current
HEAD.
Thanks for pointing that out.
If you specify the Sonatype snapshots repository, you can pull nightly builds:
:repositories { sonatype { :url
https://oss.sonatype.org/content/repositories/snapshots; } }
:dependencies [[org.clojure/clojure 1.3.0-master-SNAPSHOT]]
That just pulled clojure-1.3.0-master-20110622.000355-98.jar which is
the most recent nightly build according to build.clojure.org.
Without that repo, I've no idea what build you'd get...
Right, I should have mentioned that — I unfortunately assumed that Bernard
didn't have the OSS repo in his config. Without that, it would resolve to a
build from December from build.clojure.org if one is using Leiningen.
(I think the only useful artifacts at build.clojure.org that aren't in central
already are old versions of clojure-contrib (1.0.0 and 1.1.0 AFAICT). Is that
what's keeping build.clojure.org/* in Leiningen's default set of searched repos
these days?)
- Chas
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Re: Clojure number crunching win ! was Re: Needing type hinting help for number crunching
On Jul 25, 2011, at 3:47 AM, Sean Corfield wrote: On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 11:45 PM, Tassilo Horn tass...@member.fsf.org wrote: The only issue is that with the repo above, version ranges don't work. If I say :dependencies [[org.clojure/clojure [1.3.0-master-SNAPSHOT,)]] Your Maven-fu is far off the scale - I didn't even know that kind of thing should be possible :) I use Leiningen specifically to avoid having to learn that sort of stuff... Coordinates (including version strings) used by Leiningen are Maven coordinates, so the former won't help you avoid their complexities. FWIW, this is a decent reference page about the semantics of Maven versions, version ranges, default conflict resolution, etc: http://docs.codehaus.org/display/MAVEN/Dependency+Mediation+and+Conflict+Resolution - Chas -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: casting and type declaration
Type annotations are used at compile time to generate direct method calls (as opposed to using reflection). `cast` is a function, so it doesn't do anything until runtime, and it just delegates to Class#cast. I don't think it is used much. In the core, it's only called in single- arity cases for * and +, to make sure that the operand is indeed a Number. Not sure about the type inference here. Have you tried with SourceDataLine imported, but without the annotation? Rich does that in the example. On Jul 24, 10:53 pm, Kartik ksara...@gmail.com wrote: Hello. I have the following code snippet to start reading an mp3 file (let [file (File. filename) stream (AudioSystem/getAudioInputStream file) base-format (.getFormat stream) decoded-format (AudioFormat. AudioFormat$Encoding/ PCM_SIGNED ...) line-info (DataLine$Info. SourceDataLine decoded-format) decoded-stream (AudioSystem/getAudioInputStream decoded-format stream) line (AudioSystem/getLine line-info) buffer (byte-array (* 1024 4))] (pprint line) (.open line decoded-format) (.start line) ...) This works fine on Mac OSX. The pprint gives #MixerSourceLine com.sun.media.sound.MixerSourceLine@56101751 When I run it in windows I get Can't call public method of non-public class: public void com.sun.media.sound.AbstractDataLine.open(javax.sound.sampled.AudioFormat) throws javax.sound.sampled.LineUnavailableException [Thrown class java.lang.IllegalArgumentException] This time the pprint gives #DirectSDL com.sun.media.sound.DirectAudioDevice$DirectSDL@173bb67 The problem is that getLine on windows returns DirectSDL which is a private inner class of DirectAudioDevice. I tried casting it to SourceDataLine which is the type I need (which is a literal translation of equivalent java code I'm following) by doing line (cast SourceDataLine (AudioSystem/getLine line-info)) But that didn't work. I had to declare the type like so #^SourceDataLine line (AudioSystem/getLine line-info) My question is what is the difference between casting and type declaration? Why does one work and not the other in this case? In general, when is one used over the other? I found a related post from Richhttp://www.mail-archive.com/clojure@googlegroups.com/msg13283.html where he says the let (without type declaration I assume) should allow the compiler to infer the type. Thanks Kartik -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Alright, fess up, who's unhappy with clojurescript?
In the middle of what? I look at ClojureScript code and it looks like Clojure to me. Google Closure is under, and it is no more annoying there than Java is under Clojure - an implementation detail, and a rich source of production-quality code. I respectfully dispute that; for what they both do - dom, css, ajax, events, cookies, ui, effects, animations etc - jquery does it far better and is much more pleasant an api. What jquery itself doesn't do the huge ecosphere of libs around it do, for example:http://metajack.im/2009/03/13/jquery-and-strophe-made-for-each-other/http://strophe.im/ Who really cares what library is used at this early, *alpha*, stage of the project? If you want to prove to yourself and then to others that jQuery is better suited than Google Closure Library, go ahead and write your ClojureScript code [1] that utilizes the jQuery library. Once you are happy with your findings, I suggest you fork the rationale and write the reasons that justify your beliefs and I'm sure we all will be eager to listen. [1] https://gist.github.com/1098417 -Alen -- Science is what you know, philosophy is what you don't know. -- Bertrand Russell On Jul 25, 11:54 am, James Keats james.w.ke...@gmail.com wrote: Right, Rich, please allow me to reply to the points you mentioned; I declined from doing so last night as I sensed some unintentionally irritated feelings, which I hope have eased a bit by now. I believe all my posts in this discussion are purely technical concerns and I believe them to be valid. I am most definitely not a troll as some have suggested; I would've had to do a ridiculous amount of homework over a long, long period of time and been a psychic to predict this event (I've only found out clojurescript in the past couple of days), and I do not believe in any way I'm making an attempt at humor in the technical arguments I'm making. On Jul 24, 10:28 pm, Rich Hickey richhic...@gmail.com wrote: On Jul 24, 11:19 am, James Keats james.w.ke...@gmail.com wrote: Alright, to be honest, I'm disappointed. I'll make sure you get a refund then. Seriously, this is like being disappointed an action movie was an action movie instead of a comedy. Your expectations are a complete mismatch for the intentions of ClojureScript. clojure's rocks... javascript reaches First of all, congrats and good job to all involved in putting it out. On the plus side, it's a good way to use the Google Closure javascript platform. On the minus, imho, that's what's wrong with it. Google Closure is too Java. Actually, it's too JavaScript. Some JS proponents want to disavow its pseudo class model, but it certainly is part of the design of JavaScript. And it has some particular advantages over the other strategies, as outlined here: http://bolinfest.com/javascript/inheritance.php Rich, the pseudo class model with the new keyword is a syntactic obfuscation, semantically javascript is prototypical inheritance. It's class free. In addition to the pseudo class inheritance advocated by google closure and the prototypical inherent in javascript, others like Doug Crockford advocated functional inheritance. Now I have watched and read enough of your output and for example Stuart Holloways talk about protocols to know that you've railed in your adovacy of clojure against classes and inheritance, and find it ironic that now you posit a link by an advocate of it citing it as advantageous. In any case, as I've mentioned, I have been aware of this article for nearly a year now, it failed to convince me back then and it still does; most of the arguments in it concern the closure compiler, an obeisance to which by the regular developer who doesn't have the needs and resources of google, I feel in this day and age of ample memory and bandwidth and fast javascript engines, is premature optimization gone berserk (seriously, folks, people are streaming HD video, 1.5 gbps fiber optic broadband is being rolled out in London and soon other cities worldwide and 4G mobiles are upon and we're fretting over mere tens of KB that gets cached after first time and basing our development around minimizing it?!), and the remainder of the arguments are in support of classes and inheritance. It's not idiomatic JavaScript. There's no such thing as idiomatic JavaScript. There are a lot of different conventions used by different libraries. The Javascript community - the vast majority of which - after a decade and a half now of experience with the language has come to regard some aspect of it as good and others as problematic; things like functional programming and object literals (akin to clojure's maps/structs/ records) vs classical inheritance, which are positions you yourself have taken and advocated. I find it disappointing that rather than porting from a functional language like Clojure straight to another functional language like Javascript,
JavaScript is Assembly Language for the Web
With clojurescript just launched, I thought there might be some interest in this podcast by Scott Hanselman. JavaScript is Assembly Language for the Web - http://www.hanselminutes.com/default.aspx?showID=294 Some discussion regarding the podcast. http://www.hanselman.com/blog/JavaScriptIsAssemblyLanguageForTheWebPart2MadnessOrJustInsanity.aspx Regards, Jimmy -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: better community docs: getting started
I just thought - Java Webstart based clooj direct from try-clojure.org. On 25/07/2011, at 6:51 PM, pmbauer wrote: For usability, nothing beats the single-click. In seconds, Clooj gives her a one-stop-shop. So I see Clooj as something worth putting right along with try-clojure.org. It not only showcases Clojure, but is rapid exposure to the lisp-style toolchain. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: clojurescript development workflow
Also, with respect to the lack of ability to interact with the browser directly through the REPL or editor like with emacs-swank-slime, is it fair to assume that this is just due to the current implementation being Rhino-based? Also ClojureScript doesn't support eval, I'm assuming JavaScript does - otherwise we wouldn't have so many AJAX tricks where websites spit bits of js at the browser to manipulate the dom. I'm therefore wondering if it will eventually be possible to spit fragments of compiled ClojureScript at a browser to do similar things? Yes, javascript does have eval. I would guess, however, that any javascript that uses eval would not be compatible with Google Closure's advanced mode. You can't prune dead code from a code base that uses eval, because the eval'ed code has the potential to invoke any piece of every library out there. If you want to spit fragments of compiled ClojureScript at a browser, as part of your development environment, I would look at how the REPL works now. There is probably incremental compilation going on there, and you should be able to modify the REPL to send the results of that incremental compilation to any connected browsers. If you find time to put something like that together, be sure to let us know how it goes. :-) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure number crunching win ! was Re: Needing type hinting help for number crunching
Sean Corfield seancorfi...@gmail.com writes: Hi Sean, On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 11:45 PM, Tassilo Horn tass...@member.fsf.org wrote: The only issue is that with the repo above, version ranges don't work. If I say :dependencies [[org.clojure/clojure [1.3.0-master-SNAPSHOT,)]] Your Maven-fu is far off the scale - I didn't even know that kind of thing should be possible :) Well, that basically means 1.3.0 snapshot or newer. I tend to be optimistic with respect to versioning and assume that newer packages won't break my stuff. Currently, it seems most people specify exact versions creating the maven equivalent of a JAR/DLL hell. For example, there are many libs out there that depend on clojure 1.2.0 although they work perfectly fine with 1.2.1 or even a 1.3.0 snapshot. Depending on one of those will pollute you lib/ with different clojure versions which will certainly mess up your classpath. Bye, Tassilo -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Alright, fess up, who's unhappy with clojurescript?
Oracle announced/talked about Nashorn at the recent JVM Languages summit, this is an Invoke Dynamic based Javascript runtime which is (aiming) for inclusion in JDK8. I do so hope however that someone manages to pull that out for a lets run this NOW on Java 7 as that would be a great improvement over rhino. Does it really matter? Nobody would really deploy ClojureScript based on Rhino, right? As long as Rhino has the correct semantics its fine as a repl. We allready have a programming language that runs fast on the JVM, its called clojure. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: clojurescript development workflow
On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 4:02 AM, Sam Aaron samaa...@gmail.com wrote: Also, with respect to the lack of ability to interact with the browser directly through the REPL or editor like with emacs-swank-slime, is it fair to assume that this is just due to the current implementation being Rhino-based? Perhaps ClojureScript repl could be hooked up to swank-js (similar to mozrepl) to send the code to your browser (a specific page even) for evaluation. https://github.com/ivan4th/swank-js Scott -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Alright, fess up, who's unhappy with clojurescript?
Colin, I don't think anyone responding was doing so with the mindset of my way or the highway and we must defend the great leader's achievements. Speaking for myself, I responded to an argument that did not make sense, that argument being basically: Crockford says javascript can be written a certain way, jQuery generally follows this pattern and it is popular, Google Closure does not follow this pattern in some ways and is not as popular, therefore it should not be used for ClojureScript. Nobody is shooting down I love it type posts because they do come off as intentionally inflammatory. The titles of these posts seem aimed to incite controversy and ruffle feathers (as does the content), rather than seriously inquire about the rationale. And the arguments are generally recaps of articles that agree with the author, rather than actual pain points hit when trying to create something with Clojure or ClojureScript. The responses throwing troll around are the attempt of the community to point out that this list's main purpose is to help people, not for inflammatory content that belongs in blog posts. As for responding with OK, this guy clearly doesn't get it - how can we improve our communication, this goes back to the intent of the author. I don't think the intent was to get anything, I think the intent was to incite. The best response to this is to ignore it, and that is what I should have done, but it is easier to say than to do. - Mark On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 5:08 AM, Colin Yates colin.ya...@gmail.com wrote: Absolutely nothing to add to the argument as such except to say that I am quite surprised at the level of resistance to James' thread. I can see the argument if this was the 'dev' mailing list. I have been reading this mailing list for a long while now (even if I haven't contributed much to it) but if this had been the first post I had read I would have a very negative opinion of the *clojure community*. It comes off as sounding like if you don't like what we do, go away - it is our way or the highway, which would be a terrible shame as I don't *think* that is the case? If I wanted that atmosphere there are plenty of other places to go. Sure, I get that James' email didn't really provide any points of discussion, it was more a moan (sorry James ;)), but so what - I don't see anybody shooting down ClojureScript - I love it type posts. And maybe a better response would be asking OK, this guy clearly doesn't get it - how can we improve our communication? Rich - we are *all* grateful and I expect I am not alone in being amazed at the technical marvel you have pulled out of the hat. But to be honest I think you need a thicker skin. Getting your strokes from the mailing list is dangerous at best. To be disheartened by one negative post in the midst of positive votes is a bit worrying. If this mailing list is for the community to discuss Clojure and ask Clojurians for help then these responses were inappropriate. If this mailing list is to big up Clojure then fine - but make that explicit. Col (surprisingly disappointed and feels strongly enough to send this at the risk of being called a troll himself!) P.S. Strongly opinionated communities that shoots down criticisms of the great leaders' achievements is unfortunately not breaking new ground - so stop this :) and move onto the next ground breaking tool! On 25 July 2011 08:38, Mark Derricutt m...@talios.com wrote: Oracle announced/talked about Nashorn at the recent JVM Languages summit, this is an Invoke Dynamic based Javascript runtime which is (aiming) for inclusion in JDK8. I do so hope however that someone manages to pull that out for a lets run this NOW on Java 7 as that would be a great improvement over rhino. On 25/07/2011, at 3:54 AM, Stuart Halloway wrote: Rhino is an implementation detail of the development platform. That implementation detail could and probably should change. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from
Re: Alright, fess up, who's unhappy with clojurescript?
I'd say Google Closure/Libray is more idiomatic JavaScript than jQuery; jQuery is more sugary and has a different feel to it. I like jQuery, but I completely see why that is not a the most optimal base to build on when something like Google Closure exists. Rich mentioned, however, that people would probably wrap or include jQuery as a plugin anyway, i.e. not as a base thing, and this is ok and a much better strategy IMHO. I didn't really understand your post about Yegge either. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Alright, fess up, who's unhappy with clojurescript?
On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 8:28 AM, Mark Rathwell mark.rathw...@gmail.com wrote: Colin, I don't think anyone responding was doing so with the mindset of my way or the highway and we must defend the great leader's achievements. Speaking for myself, I responded to an argument that did not make sense, that argument being basically: Crockford says javascript can be written a certain way, jQuery generally follows this pattern and it is popular, Google Closure does not follow this pattern in some ways and is not as popular, therefore it should not be used for ClojureScript. Nobody is shooting down I love it type posts because they do come off as intentionally inflammatory. The titles of these posts seem aimed to incite controversy and ruffle feathers (as does the content), rather than seriously inquire about the rationale. And the arguments are generally recaps of articles that agree with the author, rather than actual pain points hit when trying to create something with Clojure or ClojureScript. The responses throwing troll around are the attempt of the community to point out that this list's main purpose is to help people, not for inflammatory content that belongs in blog posts. Be that as it may, it has been my experience that throwing the term troll around itself is inflammatory and generates more heat than light. It's easily abused to dismiss without consideration (and to try to get others to do likewise) an argument you disagree with, for example, as well as frequently misapplied by accident. (It should be properly reserved for those who quite intentionally are posting solely to stir up noise -- not just anyone whose posts have that effect even unintentionally, let alone where the main stirring up of noise is coming from the use of the word troll itself or from other name-calling directed AT the alleged troll.) The best thing to do if you suspect some post may be a troll is to *ignore it*. Flaming it and/or calling its author names will, if you're wrong, alienate what might be a useful contributor to the group, and if you're right, feed the troll. I doubt you wish to do either. As for responding with OK, this guy clearly doesn't get it - how can we improve our communication, this goes back to the intent of the author. I don't think the intent was to get anything, I think the intent was to incite. The evidence is, thus far, equivocal on that score. The best response to this is to ignore it, and that is what I should have done, but it is easier to say than to do. Ahh. That's one that is beginning to get it more, anyway. -- Protege: What is this seething mass of parentheses?! Master: Your father's Lisp REPL. This is the language of a true hacker. Not as clumsy or random as C++; a language for a more civilized age. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: [ANN] ClojureScript
There is some small mentions about mobile around Clojurescript. What is the plan for Mobile integration? Why wouldn't Clojure be a better fit on the androidplatform? (performance and build problems aside) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: JavaScript is Assembly Language for the Web
Yes. And somebody said that Java is the assembly language of the JVM. So true. Frank. On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 11:56 AM, Jimmy jimmy.co...@gmail.com wrote: With clojurescript just launched, I thought there might be some interest in this podcast by Scott Hanselman. JavaScript is Assembly Language for the Web - http://www.hanselminutes.com/default.aspx?showID=294 Some discussion regarding the podcast. http://www.hanselman.com/blog/JavaScriptIsAssemblyLanguageForTheWebPart2MadnessOrJustInsanity.aspx Regards, Jimmy -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: better community docs: getting started
On Jul 25, 2011, at 4:11 AM, Michael Wood wrote: On 25 July 2011 09:41, Sean Corfield seancorfi...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 11:51 PM, pmbauer paul.michael.ba...@gmail.com wrote: [...] That's why I would give Clooj some prominence rather than burying it at the bottom of the decision tree. Well, then put it at the top with the tag line If you don't have a strong affinity for a specific IDE or editor, why not try Clooj which is a simple, lightweight editor focused on Clojure? Otherwise see the options below for adding Clojure support to your favorite IDE... +1 +1 with a little more justification from one perspective: As a relative newbie (to Clojure and especially the Java ecosystem, but not to Lisp) and as a teacher (I have been and plan to continue teaching Clojure to undergrads) I have pretty strong opinions on this. What I hope for in a getting started page/process is something that will allow people with little/no experience with any existing programming environment to install and begin to use a Clojure environment that is not toy in the sense that it includes both a reasonable Lisp code editor (minimally: bracket matching and language-aware auto-reindenting) and a reasonable way to grow a project to include multiple files and libraries without learning a lot about classpaths and miscellaneous other Java tools (which probably means leiningen or cake). All of the existing full IDEs involve a lot of complexity that is bewildering to newcomers, either in installation/configuration, in use, in dealing with libraries/classpaths in the community-normed way, or in some combination of these. Until very recently I thought that the way forward on this was to push one or more of the existing IDEs in more newbie-friendly directions, e.g. by getting CCW to play more nicely with leiningen, or to provide more newbie-friendly installation/configuration scripts/instructions for emacs-based environments. And several people in the community have recently made contributions recently that helped with these things in significant ways. I thank them all! But from my perspective there was not yet a really complete, satisfying solution. Now along comes clooj. This has, to my mind, really leapfrogged over all of the other approaches in its potential to provide a really smooth entry ramp into Clojure coding for total novices -- AND (and this conjunction is quite important for me personally) also for seasoned non-Java-ecosystem programmers who want to use Clojure for serious work without mastering Java ecosystem tools. It provides trivial download/installation, a simple but sufficient editing environment and, I think (although I haven't yet worked with this) smooth integration with a leiningen-based or cake-based workflow. Related issues are being discussed on the clooj mailing list (cl...@googlegroups.com), and I think that with a few more enhancements to the environment and especially to the getting started instructions (focusing on integrated clooj+lein/cake workflow, and providing simple instructions for 1: hello world, 2: including and using a library, and 3: building an application) this will be a really excellent environment for newcomers. Assuming that clooj+lein/cake continues to improve as rapidly as it has over the last week, I too would advocate this being the first item listed on a Clojure getting started page. -Lee -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: JavaScript is Assembly Language for the Web
Except for the fact that it is categorically wrong, it's some intuition behind the statement that might be valid. On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 3:05 PM, Frank Gerhardt f...@gerhardtinformatics.com wrote: Yes. And somebody said that Java is the assembly language of the JVM. So true. Frank. On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 11:56 AM, Jimmy jimmy.co...@gmail.com wrote: With clojurescript just launched, I thought there might be some interest in this podcast by Scott Hanselman. JavaScript is Assembly Language for the Web - http://www.hanselminutes.com/default.aspx?showID=294 Some discussion regarding the podcast. http://www.hanselman.com/blog/JavaScriptIsAssemblyLanguageForTheWebPart2MadnessOrJustInsanity.aspx Regards, Jimmy -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- Mystische Erklärungen: Die mystischen Erklärungen gelten für tief; die Wahrheit ist, dass sie noch nicht einmal oberflächlich sind. -- Friedrich Nietzsche [ Die Fröhliche Wissenschaft Buch 3, 126 ] -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: ClojureScript
Hi Peter, I would also love to know how you set this up in a little more detail. It really sounds like an excellent approach… Sam --- http://sam.aaron.name On 25 Jul 2011, at 05:46, FL wrote: On Jul 24, 1:44 pm, Peter Taoussanis ptaoussa...@gmail.com wrote: ... I am, literally, deploying this to my web app right now. I've got a Compojure route setup for a the resulting output of memoized ClojureScript compile call. I can work on the ClojureScript directly from my project. When something changes, I re-evaluate the memoized fn on my dev box (or on the production server through an SSH tunnel) and boom: I have a fully-optimized script going out to users. Add in a content-hash of the compiled script to automatically expire the old resource, and I have a workflow that I couldn't imagine being much better. ... --Peter Could you describe your setup in some more detail? (I'd like to use clojure+clojurescript for a netCDF-compatible web mapping server.) -F -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Alright, fess up, who's unhappy with clojurescript?
On Jul 25, 7:54 pm, James Keats james.w.ke...@gmail.com wrote: Best regards; love you, man, and sorry again for any misunderstanding or unintended miscommunication. My humble suggestion is when you find yourself in your 5th or 6th paragraph of an opinion piece there's a reasonable chance what you're writing belongs on your blog rather than here. - Steve -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Alright, fess up, who's unhappy with clojurescript?
+1 - I think an etiquette document needs to be written. On 25 July 2011 15:10, Steve stephen.a.lind...@gmail.com wrote: On Jul 25, 7:54 pm, James Keats james.w.ke...@gmail.com wrote: Best regards; love you, man, and sorry again for any misunderstanding or unintended miscommunication. My humble suggestion is when you find yourself in your 5th or 6th paragraph of an opinion piece there's a reasonable chance what you're writing belongs on your blog rather than here. - Steve -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: clojure.contrib.profile crashes
This could be the same issue that Kevin Baribeau has found with clojure.contrib.profile here: https://github.com/richhickey/clojure-contrib/pull/2#issuecomment-1385392 (Yes, we know he needs a CA, etc. - he mentions requesting assembla access before closing that pull request.) TL;DR - might want a long instead of an int? https://github.com/kbaribeau/clojure-contrib/commit/5de52bd488265199fed8af09e7d5d31389492ed9 - Colin -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Alright, fess up, who's unhappy with clojurescript?
James, The reason you are experiencing resistance is because you are proposing changes to things that will never change. Rich came up with the Rationale before designing ClojureScript and long before writing any code. All of the design work was informed by this. You are arguing that there should be a different rationale which would mean starting over from scratch. Imagine that I invite you come work on a house that I am building which has already been framed. Furthermore, imagine that I welcome your input as to how the construction should progress. If your input is, I think we should build the house on top of the mountain over there or There should be two bedrooms downstairs instead of one you are going to get shut down. Those decisions were made a long time ago and it's too late to change now. If you look at The Library Problem section of the Rationale document, you will see the specific problem that ClojureScript addresses and why the Closure compiler was chosen as the solution to that problem. Your argument seems to be, that isn't a problem. If you don't think that is a problem then you are looking for something other than ClojureScript and are welcome to pursue it. Brenton On Jul 25, 5:54 am, James Keats james.w.ke...@gmail.com wrote: Right, Rich, please allow me to reply to the points you mentioned; I declined from doing so last night as I sensed some unintentionally irritated feelings, which I hope have eased a bit by now. I believe all my posts in this discussion are purely technical concerns and I believe them to be valid. I am most definitely not a troll as some have suggested; I would've had to do a ridiculous amount of homework over a long, long period of time and been a psychic to predict this event (I've only found out clojurescript in the past couple of days), and I do not believe in any way I'm making an attempt at humor in the technical arguments I'm making. On Jul 24, 10:28 pm, Rich Hickey richhic...@gmail.com wrote: On Jul 24, 11:19 am, James Keats james.w.ke...@gmail.com wrote: Alright, to be honest, I'm disappointed. I'll make sure you get a refund then. Seriously, this is like being disappointed an action movie was an action movie instead of a comedy. Your expectations are a complete mismatch for the intentions of ClojureScript. clojure's rocks... javascript reaches First of all, congrats and good job to all involved in putting it out. On the plus side, it's a good way to use the Google Closure javascript platform. On the minus, imho, that's what's wrong with it. Google Closure is too Java. Actually, it's too JavaScript. Some JS proponents want to disavow its pseudo class model, but it certainly is part of the design of JavaScript. And it has some particular advantages over the other strategies, as outlined here: http://bolinfest.com/javascript/inheritance.php Rich, the pseudo class model with the new keyword is a syntactic obfuscation, semantically javascript is prototypical inheritance. It's class free. In addition to the pseudo class inheritance advocated by google closure and the prototypical inherent in javascript, others like Doug Crockford advocated functional inheritance. Now I have watched and read enough of your output and for example Stuart Holloways talk about protocols to know that you've railed in your adovacy of clojure against classes and inheritance, and find it ironic that now you posit a link by an advocate of it citing it as advantageous. In any case, as I've mentioned, I have been aware of this article for nearly a year now, it failed to convince me back then and it still does; most of the arguments in it concern the closure compiler, an obeisance to which by the regular developer who doesn't have the needs and resources of google, I feel in this day and age of ample memory and bandwidth and fast javascript engines, is premature optimization gone berserk (seriously, folks, people are streaming HD video, 1.5 gbps fiber optic broadband is being rolled out in London and soon other cities worldwide and 4G mobiles are upon and we're fretting over mere tens of KB that gets cached after first time and basing our development around minimizing it?!), and the remainder of the arguments are in support of classes and inheritance. It's not idiomatic JavaScript. There's no such thing as idiomatic JavaScript. There are a lot of different conventions used by different libraries. The Javascript community - the vast majority of which - after a decade and a half now of experience with the language has come to regard some aspect of it as good and others as problematic; things like functional programming and object literals (akin to clojure's maps/structs/ records) vs classical inheritance, which are positions you yourself have taken and advocated. I find it disappointing that rather than porting from a functional language like Clojure straight to another functional
ClojureScript on Windows
Is there a documented way to get ClojureScript working on Windows? While I'm familiar with Linux, and use it in several server environments, all my development is on Windows, so I don't really have access to a Linux box for development. Timothy -- “One of the main causes of the fall of the Roman Empire was that–lacking zero–they had no way to indicate successful termination of their C programs.” (Robert Firth) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: ClojureScript on Windows
I've gotten the basics working. Haven't had the time to write up a full blog post, though. Basically I used Cygwin so that I could run the bootstrap script. In any of the shell scripts where it sets a classpath you'll have to change the colons to semicolons. On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 10:59 AM, Timothy Baldridge tbaldri...@gmail.comwrote: Is there a documented way to get ClojureScript working on Windows? While I'm familiar with Linux, and use it in several server environments, all my development is on Windows, so I don't really have access to a Linux box for development. Timothy -- “One of the main causes of the fall of the Roman Empire was that–lacking zero–they had no way to indicate successful termination of their C programs.” (Robert Firth) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: ClojureScript on Windows
Also, VirtualBox (http://www.virtualbox.org/) is free, if you were interested in linux for some development. On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 11:06 AM, Tamreen Khan histor...@gmail.com wrote: I've gotten the basics working. Haven't had the time to write up a full blog post, though. Basically I used Cygwin so that I could run the bootstrap script. In any of the shell scripts where it sets a classpath you'll have to change the colons to semicolons. On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 10:59 AM, Timothy Baldridge tbaldri...@gmail.comwrote: Is there a documented way to get ClojureScript working on Windows? While I'm familiar with Linux, and use it in several server environments, all my development is on Windows, so I don't really have access to a Linux box for development. Timothy -- “One of the main causes of the fall of the Roman Empire was that–lacking zero–they had no way to indicate successful termination of their C programs.” (Robert Firth) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: JavaScript is Assembly Language for the Web
From an historic perspective it's absolutely right. It happened in the past already. When you end up writing thousands of lines of code to achieve what should be a simple objective and you need assistance from sophisticated tools to get the task done, it means that the language used is at a very low level in the language stack. That's what motivated the emergence of high level (at the time) languages like Fortran, Cobol, Pascal, ... to get away from the metal and assemblers. It's exactly the same today, a search for more concise expressiveness to achieve more complex goals. Java and C/C++ have attained their apogee in terms of expressing today's problems. They are a better than assemblers but they will get confined to the bottom of the language stack as better alternatives emerge. It does not mean they are not useful anymore, assemblers were widely used in the 1980s/90s in low level libraries and in resource constrained environments (bank tellers, ...) Being able to use Java libs from Clojure in the same fashion is valuable. No one would like to rewrite all the Java libs in Clojure or any other of today's high level language. It's simply unrealistic. Luc P. On Mon, 25 Jul 2011 15:16:11 +0200 Lars Heidieker lars.heidie...@googlemail.com wrote: Except for the fact that it is categorically wrong, it's some intuition behind the statement that might be valid. On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 3:05 PM, Frank Gerhardt f...@gerhardtinformatics.com wrote: Yes. And somebody said that Java is the assembly language of the JVM. So true. Frank. On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 11:56 AM, Jimmy jimmy.co...@gmail.com wrote: With clojurescript just launched, I thought there might be some interest in this podcast by Scott Hanselman. JavaScript is Assembly Language for the Web - http://www.hanselminutes.com/default.aspx?showID=294 Some discussion regarding the podcast. http://www.hanselman.com/blog/JavaScriptIsAssemblyLanguageForTheWebPart2MadnessOrJustInsanity.aspx Regards, Jimmy -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- Luc P. The rabid Muppet -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Alright, fess up, who's unhappy with clojurescript?
On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 11:19 AM, James Keats james.w.ke...@gmail.com wrote: Google Closure is too Java. It's not idiomatic JavaScript. I find it disappointing that rather than porting from a functional language like Clojure straight to another functional language like Javascript, the google closure with its ugly Java-isms is right there obnoxiously in the middle. It is interesting to me that you say this, because it's an argument I've used against other JavaScript libraries. In particular I think Zimbra is weak in this way. For a specific example, to register an event handler using the Zimbra event system, you can't just pass in a function, you have to pass in an instance of an AjxListener. This definitely strikes me as a useless Java-ism. The G. Closure library doesn't have that particular problem -- it's clearly aware that functions are first-class objects in JavaScript and takes advantage of that fact. Is there some other specific way in which the G. Closure library is too Java-like? How does that specific way actual harm the development process or the final product? Then, there's the elephant in the room, and that elephant is Jquery. I like jQuery. It's a huge win compared to vanilla JavaScript for the browser. Now, I personally plan to write my ClojureScript code to target the G. Closure library and then run it through the advanced-mode G. Closure compiler, but there's no reason *you* have to. You argue elsewhere that the G. Closure compiler is unnecessary (citing streaming HD video in comparison to minified JavaScript) -- if you don't use the compiler (or use it only in simple mode) you should have no problem using jQuery. Your resulting .js will be quite a bit larger because you'll have a couple of the G. Closure library files that ClojureScript itself uses, but nothing compared to streaming HD video. So, you could use ClojureScript and jQuery to write a snappy little demo and prove to everyone the value of that approach. I'm sure I'm not the only one that would be interested in seeing such a demo. --Chouser -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Alright, fess up, who's unhappy with clojurescript?
So, you could use ClojureScript and jQuery to write a snappy little demo and prove to everyone the value of that approach. I'm sure I'm not the only one that would be interested in seeing such a demo. I think Rich's point in his talk is good to re-iterate here. Is jQuery cool? Yes! I would hate to program a webapp in JS without it...but that's the key, in JS. Why do I need jQuery 90% of the time, because simplifies things like finding dom elements, and adding events, etc. For JS coding, that's a awesome tool to have. But in ClojureScript we have map, filter, macros, etc. Why would I need jQuery? I think it's important to distinguish between libraries that are truly needed to do web programming, and libraries that are needed in JS to do web programming. Timothy -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: ClojureScript Questions
- On page 2 of the Closure book, there is a workflow figure on using the Closure tools, how would ClojureScript change this workflow? It would be great to post such a modified diagram to the closure wiki. Some quick notes on this: 1) calcdeps.py and the compiler are taken care of for you by cljsc. 2) There's nothing specific to help with templates in ClojureScript, so you still need to generate the JS template code using the Closure template tools. 3) Use the :libs option in the compiler options to point to things like Soy or your own libs (these must use google.provides and google.require though). I haven't yet looked into the testing part yet, but I assume it works like using soy. jack. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: better community docs: getting started
How about making the main suggestion be clooj instead, with emacs, eclipse, netbeans in the list of alternative options? :) Sounds like consensus around Clooj. Released on July 18th, top option on July 25th! Things move at lightspeed around here The one thing I want to say about Emacs is that at some point we might want to tell newcomers that it is as close to a standard dev environment for experienced Clojure programmers as there is (along with all the necessary warnings about its difficulties). I've been using Emacs for such a long time I've forgotten how horrible it can be thoughhence my apparent missrec... (If Aquamacs consistently worked with Clojure, Emacs would not be as bad of a problem on Mac at least. Some people do seem to get it workingRich Hickey, for instance. But I trust he has better things to do with his time than write Getting Started guides for Aquamacs.) I just found out that I don't have permission on dev.clojure to move pages (which would be needed to reorganize docs obviously). Does anyone around here have that permission and want to do it, or shall I go about and try to get the permission? Maybe someone with more experience and having been on dev.clojure longer would be preferred, but I feel pretty confident I can do \this at least = ) Other than not recommending Emacs, do people think that the overall organization I suggested is a good idea? I should reiterate that other information needs to be accessible; for now I'd just like to see us not presenting people with twelve options as their first view of Getting Started, all in link form (after at least two clickthroughs from clojure.org, typically). Of course people are capable of digesting the information in the current form, but it takes more time and mindshareand why should it? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: ClojureScript
It will be a only a matter of time before people realize it doesn't matter whether jQuery integrates or not. The examples/blog posts coming out already are spectacular. On Jul 24, 1:44 pm, Peter Taoussanis ptaoussa...@gmail.com wrote: Just want to throw in on this real quick. I am -dumbfounded- by how cool ClojureScript is. It was about 2AM my time when I first heard the announcement and I stayed up another 3 hours after that watching Rich's talk and playing with the samples. As I see it right now, this is a Big Deal. For lots of reasons. And I suspect it might take some time for the whole concept and its wide ramifications to fully digest for everyone. Like many (I'm guessing), my first question was: will it work with jQuery? I'd never even heard of Google Closure. Suffice it to say it didn't take much time looking into it to get me excited. And for it to click just how smart this whole approach seems it might just be. I am, literally, deploying this to my web app right now. I've got a Compojure route setup for a the resulting output of memoized ClojureScript compile call. I can work on the ClojureScript directly from my project. When something changes, I re-evaluate the memoized fn on my dev box (or on the production server through an SSH tunnel) and boom: I have a fully-optimized script going out to users. Add in a content-hash of the compiled script to automatically expire the old resource, and I have a workflow that I couldn't imagine being much better. Client-side side stuff I've wanted to do with my app but couldn't even begin to have the patience to implement- now suddenly seem trivial in principle. Having access to the reader for transmitting native data structures between the server and client... I don't even have the words. And this is just the stuff that touches me directly and that's obvious. I can't wait to see what people are going to do with this in time. Thank you: awesome job, guys. And what an awesome surprise! -- Peter -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure number crunching win ! was Re: Needing type hinting help for number crunching
On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 3:10 AM, Chas Emerick cemer...@snowtide.com wrote: (I think the only useful artifacts at build.clojure.org that aren't in central already are old versions of clojure-contrib (1.0.0 and 1.1.0 AFAICT). Is that what's keeping build.clojure.org/* in Leiningen's default set of searched repos these days?) It was actually dropped a while ago when I found out that it was no longer being updated. I didn't realize until now that contrib wasn't on central prior to 1.2.0, but I think at this point the odds of someone needing versions that old are pretty slim. -Phil -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: clojurescript development workflow
Hi, today I've been working on cljs-devmode: https://github.com/maxweber/cljs-devmode It is a really primitive prototype of a development mode for ClojureScript. For an explanation take a look at the README on the GitHub repo. I'm in a hurry so I'm going to continue the work on cljs- devmode tomorrow. I would appreciate any feedback. Best regards Max On 24 Jul., 23:51, Sam Aaron samaa...@gmail.com wrote: Hi there, Having never really enjoyed javascript and therefore avoiding it for the longest time, I'm now quite excited to jump into it given the introduction of ClojureScript. It's really quite exciting - thanks everyone for putting so much effort and thought into it. One thing I'm wondering about (and hope that someone with more ClojureScript dev experience than myself could help illuminate things for me) is what a typical ClojureScript development workflow looks like. With Clojure, I do the following: * start up a swank server * hack in the repl * hack in the text editor - sending forms to be evaled on the swank server * instantly see/hear (if I'm doing GUI/sound work) the results of my evals I walked through the first two Google Closure tutorials: *http://code.google.com/closure/library/docs/gettingstarted.html *http://code.google.com/closure/library/docs/tutorial.html My workflow lacked a REPL (although I believe they exist in some web browsers) but I was able to modify the code, hit refresh in the browser and immediately see changes. However, when I went through the ClojureScript tutorial: *https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/wiki/Quick-Start Although I did get a REPL, it was totally disconnected from the browser, so I wasn't able to test any GUI stuff with it and if I modified the code I had to wait quite a long time for the js to compile before I saw the changes in the browser. I'm therefore wondering, how do other people with more experience develop with ClojureScript? Is there any way of getting the wonderful flow of code creation/evaluation/visibility that you can get in a typical Clojure workflow? Thanks in advance, Sam ---http://sam.aaron.name -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: :require farms in Clojure?
And then goodbye statical analysis ... :-) 2011/7/20 Meikel Brandmeyer m...@kotka.de Hi, Am Mittwoch, 20. Juli 2011 06:38:27 UTC+2 schrieb Chas Emerick: Try: (ns myfuns (:require (foo.baz [a :as a] [b :as b] [c :as c])) I think he wants more something like this: (ns require.farm) (def xxx '[[foo.bar [a :as a] [b :as b]] frob.nicate]) (def yyy '[[foo.bar.c :as c]]) (ns require.userA (:require [require.farm :as requires])) (apply require requires/xxx) (ns require.userB (:require [require.farm :as requires])) (apply require requires/xxx) (apply require requires/yyy) Sincerely Meikel -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Alright, fess up, who's unhappy with clojurescript?
+1 to writing an etiquette document. I have to confess I wrote a long post a few weeks ago without realizing these sorts of posts belonged on blogs (it was, oddly enough, another James Keats thread, on the subject of Steve Yegge. I figured if \Yegge writes long blogs). I didn't intend to ruffle any feathers there, but my opinion that some things were not being given enough priority was taken as disrespecting people's efforts so far. But there seems to be some more attention to documentation now and the newbie experience, so I'm happy (and trying to help) = ) Ken was helpful to me then when he pointed out that my post was simply too long. I suspect this was much more useful to the forum than someone partly reading the post and responding out of context. Similarly, writing (hopefully gentle) admonishments about etiquette might help steer things in the right direction. If someone simply responded with a few lines to this particular thread: This is not the kind of discussion this forum is for; it is also too late in the process to be a constructive criticism, there might have been more light and less heat. Furthermore, if people want to offer etiquette pointers on the tone and framing of a particular post, why not simply use the reply to author link? There's a quote from the New Testament that I can't quite rememberwait.thank you Google: If thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone. (I note, however, that this was presumably written before Facebook, which makes privacy sound almost as quaint as King James and Shakespeare.) As for the subsequent part about And if he neglect to hear the cljurch, let him be as an troll to you ((this is from the New Internet Version)), I guess that would be equivalent to simply ignoring him. (If it said: then ANN thou out upon him and the list that he be an trollwe would have a horse of a different color.) On Jul 25, 10:21 am, Colin Yates colin.ya...@gmail.com wrote: +1 - I think an etiquette document needs to be written. On 25 July 2011 15:10, Steve stephen.a.lind...@gmail.com wrote: On Jul 25, 7:54 pm, James Keats james.w.ke...@gmail.com wrote: Best regards; love you, man, and sorry again for any misunderstanding or unintended miscommunication. My humble suggestion is when you find yourself in your 5th or 6th paragraph of an opinion piece there's a reasonable chance what you're writing belongs on your blog rather than here. - Steve -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Alright, fess up, who's unhappy with clojurescript?
Rich, the pseudo class model with the new keyword is a syntactic obfuscation, semantically javascript is prototypical inheritance. It's class free. In addition to the pseudo class inheritance advocated by google closure and the prototypical inherent in javascript, others like Doug Crockford advocated functional inheritance. Almost every big JS library I know of adds in traditional inheritance, so I don't think the community has decided what the best design pattern is. There are many vocal people in the community who advocate for prototypal inheritance, but I think this is a far cry from consensus. But the real issue is that this has very little to do with ClojureScript. Whether the underlying library uses one or the other is of little concern to the higher level. I don't think there is anything in ClojureScript preventing you from interop with *any* JS lib, unless of course you also want to use Closure compiler, in which case there are some rules to follow. I respectfully dispute that; for what they both do - dom, css, ajax, events, cookies, ui, effects, animations etc - jquery does it far better and is much more pleasant an api. What jquery itself doesn't do the huge ecosphere of libs around it do, for example: http://metajack.im/2009/03/13/jquery-and-strophe-made-for-each-other/ http://strophe.im/ I wrote that post and the Strophe.js library. I can tell you there is nothing at all in Strophe that is jQuery dependent. It turns out that jQuery's selector engine is quite useful at picking apart XML (and strangely the other libraries selector engines aren't), which makes using Strophe.js a lot easier. Plenty of people use Strophe.js alongside other JS libs without any problems. Many libraries are like this. Underscore.js is another example, but there are tons of others. It's certainly true that jQuery has a lot of plugins that already exist. I can't say yet whether any of those would be useful in ClojureScript. There's nothing preventing you using jQuery and ClojureScript together (aside from a few kB overhead which they claim to be working on minimizing). I don't see what benefit ClojureScript would get from being built on jQuery, and it would be giving up a lot (the Closure compiler!) for any such benefits. Strophe is actually a great example because it's nearly impossible to write any javascript library that satisfies some consensus of javascript design. What dependency management tool should it use? What type of object structure? No matter what I choose, there are large swaths of major libraries that will not have made the same choices. ClojureScript doesn't seemed particularly tied to anything but the Closure compiler and it's dependency requirements. The benefits are huge, and don't exist anywhere else to my knowledge. If jQuery or YUI offered such a system, I think there would be more to argue about, but even though I'm not a fan of Closure or YUI either (I tend to reach for jQuery), I am perfectly happy with ClojureScript's choices and have started down the road to embracing Closure library as well. jack. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Alright, fess up, who's unhappy with clojurescript?
On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 12:59 PM, nchurch nchubr...@gmail.com wrote: +1 to writing an etiquette document. I have to confess I wrote a long post a few weeks ago without realizing these sorts of posts belonged on blogs Not everyone *has* a blog, you know. Ken was helpful to me then when he pointed out that my post was simply too long. More in a condense your thoughts, or post several posts on subtopics sense than a post somewhere else sense, though. Furthermore, if people want to offer etiquette pointers on the tone and framing of a particular post, why not simply use the reply to author link? There's a quote from the New Testament that I can't quite rememberwait.thank you Google: If thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone. Unfortunately, some people on the internet seem to think that a) the way to punish misdemeanors is public humiliation of some sort, b) they are the police and judge and jury who will decide who's guilty and apply these punishments, and c) what things are *misdemeanors* and what things *they, personally, dislike* are precisely equal as sets. Of course, all three things are wrong. :) Those people cause as much trouble as trolls -- perhaps more, since they're among the most incorrigible troll *feeders*. [snippy] nchurch, I arrest you, try you, and find you guilty of the heinous charge of top-posting, thou knave, thou scum, thou waster of bandwidth! ;) -- Protege: What is this seething mass of parentheses?! Master: Your father's Lisp REPL. This is the language of a true hacker. Not as clumsy or random as C++; a language for a more civilized age. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Alright, fess up, who's unhappy with clojurescript?
Fair point, but Rhino doesn't always have the correct semantics. For example, one common JS idiom for default params: eval(undefined || 2 + 2) = returns true instead of 4 But mostly, Rhino is just a JS engine with no DOM, so is less than ideal for browser UI development. I do so hope however that someone manages to pull that out for a lets run this NOW on Java 7 as that would be a great improvement over rhino. Does it really matter? Nobody would really deploy ClojureScript based on Rhino, right? As long as Rhino has the correct semantics its fine as a repl. We allready have a programming language that runs fast on the JVM, its called clojure. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Alright, fess up, who's unhappy with clojurescript?
nchurch, I arrest you, try you, and find you guilty of the heinous charge of top-posting, thou knave, thou scum, thou waster of bandwidth! I confess that I have erred and strayed from thy ways like a lost sheep -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Alright, fess up, who's unhappy with clojurescript?
On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 1:23 PM, nchurch nchubr...@gmail.com wrote: nchurch, I arrest you, try you, and find you guilty of the heinous charge of top-posting, thou knave, thou scum, thou waster of bandwidth! I confess that I have erred and strayed from thy ways like a lost sheep For penance you must make 3 more useful posts here today, and solve 3 Project Euler problems by midnight. ;) -- Protege: What is this seething mass of parentheses?! Master: Your father's Lisp REPL. This is the language of a true hacker. Not as clumsy or random as C++; a language for a more civilized age. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: :require farms in Clojure?
Salut Laurent, Am 25.07.2011 um 18:54 schrieb Laurent PETIT: And then goodbye statical analysis ... :-) I didn't say, that I think it's a good idea to do this. :) On the other hand I'm not afraid of dynamic analysis either. That's what VimClojure does at the moment anyway. Static analysis is – in general – confined to special cases known to the analyzer in the presence of macros. In practice it's probably doable in a reasonable way. Cordialement Meikel -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: clojurescript development workflow
On 25 Jul 2011, at 17:33, Max Weber wrote: Hi, today I've been working on cljs-devmode: https://github.com/maxweber/cljs-devmode It is a really primitive prototype of a development mode for ClojureScript. For an explanation take a look at the README on the GitHub repo. I'm in a hurry so I'm going to continue the work on cljs- devmode tomorrow. I would appreciate any feedback. Fantastic stuff - thank-you so much for this. Sam --- http://sam.aaron.name -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: better community docs: getting started
IMO, it's a very good idea to give much more accent on the easiest options for newcomers. Other than not recommending Emacs, do people think that the overall organization I suggested is a good idea? I should reiterate that other information needs to be accessible; for now I'd just like to see us not presenting people with twelve options as their first view of Getting Started, all in link form (after at least two clickthroughs from clojure.org, typically). Of course people are capable of digesting the information in the current form, but it takes more time and mindshareand why should it? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Parsing double with default value
Hi, Is there an idiomatic/built-in way to parse double with a default value if there's exception? Currently we use a generic with-default macro to ignore exception and return default value as follow: (with-default 0.0 (Double. my-value)) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Alright, fess up, who's unhappy with clojurescript?
On Mon, 2011-07-25 at 09:59 -0700, nchurch wrote: +1 to writing an etiquette document. In place of an etiquette document I suggest the book called Producing Open Source Software. In this generally useful book there is some advice, mostly directed at project leads but this section is relevant: http://producingoss.com/en/producingoss.html#communications I don't think the original poster intended to troll but the post certainly fell under the rubric of kibitzing (def: A Kibitzer is a non-participant who hangs around offering (often unwanted) advice or commentary). The advice was unwanted as the issue was already addressed in the video. Based on the book, I think Rich is doing an excellent job, especially in the area of communication. Tim Daly -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Need Help Parsing Clojure Strings
I have a web application that returns data that is pipe-delimited and looks like this: AT|1 Kenilworth Rd||Soapville|ZA|99901-7505|Option value=A == Normal street matchOption value=T == ZIP+4 corrected|013|C065| What I want to do is take the zip-zip4 field, split the zip and zip 4 apart, and add them as separate fields right after state ZA. I want to do some other things too (like remove from Option value... through 013), but that's the next step. This function (defn rearrange-accumail-seq Fixes up AccuMail sequence, so we have the right data, and it's in the correct order. [in-str] (let [s1 (cstr/split in-str #^\w*\|\w*\|\w*\|\w*\|)] s1)) does not do what I expect it to. That is I cannot find first and next in the vector of splits returned. [AT|1 Kenilworth Rd||Soapville|ZA|99901-7505|Option value=A == Normal street matchOption value=T == ZIP+4 corrected|013|C065|] Should I be using Java string parsing directly, or am I missing something basic? Thanks. cmn -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Parsing double with default value
siyu798 siyu...@gmail.com writes: Hi! Is there an idiomatic/built-in way to parse double with a default value if there's exception? Not that I know of. Currently we use a generic with-default macro to ignore exception and return default value as follow: (with-default 0.0 (Double. my-value)) Why a macro instead of a function? --8---cut here---start-8--- (defn parse-double [s [d]] (try (Double/valueOf s) (catch Exception _ d))) --8---cut here---end---8--- That way, you can use it directly with higher-order functions: ;; Without default value (map parse-double [0 1.5 3.8e-1 broken 0x1.bP2 Infinity NaN]) == (0.0 1.5 0.38 nil 6.75 Infinity NaN) ;; With default value 42.0 (map #(parse-double % 42.0) [0 1.5 3.8e-1 broken 0x1.bP2 Infinity NaN]) == (0.0 1.5 0.38 42.0 6.75 Infinity NaN) Bye, Tassilo -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Need Help Parsing Clojure Strings
Do you want something like: (vec (.split some-string \\|)) (vec (.split AT|1 Kenilworth Rd||Soapville|ZA|99901-7505|Option value=A == Normal street matchOption value=T == ZIP+4 corrected|013|C065| \\|)) = [AT 1 Kenilworth Rd Soapville ZA 99901-7505 Option value=A == Normal street matchOption value=T == ZIP+4 corrected 013 C065] -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Need Help Parsing Clojure Strings
octopusgrabbus octopusgrab...@gmail.com writes: Hi! What I want to do is take the zip-zip4 field, split the zip and zip 4 apart, and add them as separate fields right after state ZA. I want to do some other things too (like remove from Option value... through 013), but that's the next step. This function (defn rearrange-accumail-seq Fixes up AccuMail sequence, so we have the right data, and it's in the correct order. [in-str] (let [s1 (cstr/split in-str #^\w*\|\w*\|\w*\|\w*\|)] s1)) does not do what I expect it to. That is I cannot find first and next in the vector of splits returned. `split' expects a regex that matches the *separator*. (clojure.string/split foo|bar|baz #\|) == [foo bar baz] Then you can take the compontents of the resulting vector and shuffle them to your likings. Bye, Tassilo -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Parsing double with default value
Tassilo, The reason a generic default macro being used here is because we can use the same macro to parse other data type like integer: (with-default 1 (Integer. my-value)) Thanks, siyu -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Parsing double with default value
On Jul 25, 1:18 pm, siyu798 siyu...@gmail.com wrote: Tassilo, The reason a generic default macro being used here is because we can use the same macro to parse other data type like integer: (with-default 1 (Integer. my-value)) Thanks, siyu You can still do the same with a function: (defn with-default [f [default]] (fn [ args] (try (apply f args) (catch Throwable _ default (map (with-default #(Integer/parseInt %) 0) [4 test]) ;= (4 0) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
determining whether state has changed in a thread safe manner
Hi there, I have some state which I'd like to set to some default value, A. I'd then like to update A to a new value A' and then, if (not (= A A')) I'd like to fire off a function - say print to stdout that A has changed. If (= A A') I'd like nothing to happen at all. Additionally, I'd like to do this in a way that's thread safe - i.e. I can be updating A from any given thread and I'd never like to miss a time when A has changed and also I don't want to fire of the fn more times than necessary. An initial naive solution might be the following: (def a (atom 1)) (defn changed-fn [] (println something changed!)) (defn new-val [] (int (rand 2))) (defn update [] (let [old-a @a ;;A new-a (reset! a (new-val)] ;;B (when-not (= old-a new-a) (changed-fn However, if there are two updates running concurrently, statements A and B may be interleaved such that if we have two threads X and Y, a starting val of 0 for a and the result of calling new-val be 0 each time: X (deref a) ;= 1 Y (deref a) ;= 1 X (reset! a 0) ;= 0 Y (reset! a 0) ;= 0 We now call our changed-fn twice. If however, we don't interleave the calls: X (deref a) ;= 1 X (reset! a 0) ;= 0 Y (deref a) ;= 0 Y (reset! a 0) ;= 0 this results in changed-fn called only once. Clearly this approach doesn't work. Ideally, it seems that there could be versions of reset! and swap! that returned a vector result containing the old and new vals which could be directly compared. The solution appears to be to use a transaction and bind the result of a comparison within the dosync: (def a (ref 1)) (defn update [] (let [changed? (dosync (let [old-a @a new-a (ref-set a (new-val))] (= old-a new-a)))] (when changed? (changed-fn Is this the only way of achieving this? Is there another, perhaps more idiomatic, approach? It certainly seems overkill to have to use a transaction when the number of references we wish to coordinate is only one - itself and its previous value. Sam --- http://sam.aaron.name -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: determining whether state has changed in a thread safe manner
On 25 Jul 2011, at 21:45, Sam Aaron wrote: (defn update [] (let [changed? (dosync (let [old-a @a new-a (ref-set a (new-val))] (= old-a new-a)))] (when changed? (changed-fn Clearly I meant (not (= old-a new-a)) :-) Sam --- http://sam.aaron.name -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: determining whether state has changed in a thread safe manner
Hi, you want a watch. (def a (atom 0)) (add-watch a ::your-id (fn [_your-id _a old-val new-val] (when (not= old-val new-val) (println New value: new-val (swap! a inc) (reset! a 1) (swap! a inc) Sincerely Meikel -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Need Help Parsing Clojure Strings
Thanks. I finally got part of my problem when I changed the regex to #\d\d\d\d\d-\d\d\d\d to match the zip-zip4, and when that disappeared, I realized what was going on. On Jul 25, 3:51 pm, Tassilo Horn tass...@member.fsf.org wrote: octopusgrabbus octopusgrab...@gmail.com writes: Hi! What I want to do is take the zip-zip4 field, split the zip and zip 4 apart, and add them as separate fields right after state ZA. I want to do some other things too (like remove from Option value... through 013), but that's the next step. This function (defn rearrange-accumail-seq Fixes up AccuMail sequence, so we have the right data, and it's in the correct order. [in-str] (let [s1 (cstr/split in-str #^\w*\|\w*\|\w*\|\w*\|)] s1)) does not do what I expect it to. That is I cannot find first and next in the vector of splits returned. `split' expects a regex that matches the *separator*. (clojure.string/split foo|bar|baz #\|) == [foo bar baz] Then you can take the compontents of the resulting vector and shuffle them to your likings. Bye, Tassilo -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Need Help Parsing Clojure Strings
Thanks for the suggestion. I will try this tomorrow and report back. On Jul 25, 3:46 pm, Islon Scherer islonsche...@gmail.com wrote: Do you want something like: (vec (.split some-string \\|)) (vec (.split AT|1 Kenilworth Rd||Soapville|ZA|99901-7505|Option value=A == Normal street matchOption value=T == ZIP+4 corrected|013|C065| \\|)) = [AT 1 Kenilworth Rd Soapville ZA 99901-7505 Option value=A == Normal street matchOption value=T == ZIP+4 corrected 013 C065] -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: determining whether state has changed in a thread safe manner
Hi Meikel, On 25 Jul 2011, at 21:51, Meikel Brandmeyer wrote: you want a watch. (def a (atom 0)) (add-watch a ::your-id (fn [_your-id _a old-val new-val] (when (not= old-val new-val) (println New value: new-val (swap! a inc) (reset! a 1) (swap! a inc) That's cool to know - thanks. So what if I would like #'update to return a boolean representing whether the state has changed rather than call #'changed-fn internally? (which is actually what i'm trying to do, I just refactored the example to be a lot simpler and hopefully clearer). Sam --- http://sma.aaron.name -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
ClojureScript Demo
Just saw this neat ClojureScript demo, which can be used as a starting point to create a Javascript game. http://jng.imagine27.com/articles/2011-07-23-101007_clojurescript_demo_convex_hull.html -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: determining whether state has changed in a thread safe manner
Hi, Am 25.07.2011 um 23:12 schrieb Sam Aaron: So what if I would like #'update to return a boolean representing whether the state has changed rather than call #'changed-fn internally? (which is actually what i'm trying to do, I just refactored the example to be a lot simpler and hopefully clearer). Since this is callback based, you can't return a value. Do you want more something like a polling solution? Then you'll have to roll your own with an atom and a clojure.lang.PersistentQueue. Sincerely Meikel -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: determining whether state has changed in a thread safe manner
Hi Meikel, On 25 Jul 2011, at 22:46, Meikel Brandmeyer wrote: Am 25.07.2011 um 23:12 schrieb Sam Aaron: Since this is callback based, you can't return a value. Do you want more something like a polling solution? Then you'll have to roll your own with an atom and a clojure.lang.PersistentQueue. Sorry, I should have been more specific. The callback-based watchers are cool, but I don't believe they specifically address my problem (which I don't believe I sufficiently explained from the outset). Hopefully this is a more succinct and specific description. Is there a way to write the following in a thread safe manner without using a transaction: (def a (ref 1)) (defn update-and-check-whether-modified? [update-fn] (let [changed? (dosync (let [old-a @a new-a (alter a update-fn)] (not= old-a new-a)))] changed?)) Sam --- http://sam.aaron.name -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Alright, fess up, who's unhappy with clojurescript?
Perhaps I should've just looked for a blog about knitting or cupcakes and posted what I did here about clojure/clojurescript in it. That way you fine folks won't get to read it, eventhough no one here is obliged in any way to read my posts or any in this thread. Yeah, definitely, that way I might've made sure that I didn't incite any controversy or ruffle any feathers; god forbid that should ever be done here. I ask, what is it that I did other than seriously inquire about the rationale?! I don't see me making any jokes and I don't see me doing anything other than seriously inquire about the rationale. I'm sorry, but if you fine folks choose to blind and deafen yourself to my seriuos inquiry about the rationale and call me a troll for it, then there's a big wide merciless world out there that'll find it absolutely ridiculous for Rich Hickey to rail against classes and inheritance on and on and then favor a library and post a link titled inheritance that argues for hoisting a pseudoclassical version of it upon a language that tries to be functional as proof that it is advantageous. Perhaps clojure itself should have classes and inheritance and Rich should instead of apologizing for having once taught it to people apologize for teaching them clojure. Fine, I am done with this (- back to scala); I have better things to do than being called a troll. ignore me all you want, if that's how you want it then it the world out there will ignore you. (ps. what's quotes below mischaracterizes what my psots) On Jul 25, 1:28 pm, Mark Rathwell mark.rathw...@gmail.com wrote: Colin, I don't think anyone responding was doing so with the mindset of my way or the highway and we must defend the great leader's achievements. Speaking for myself, I responded to an argument that did not make sense, that argument being basically: Crockford says javascript can be written a certain way, jQuery generally follows this pattern and it is popular, Google Closure does not follow this pattern in some ways and is not as popular, therefore it should not be used for ClojureScript. Nobody is shooting down I love it type posts because they do come off as intentionally inflammatory. The titles of these posts seem aimed to incite controversy and ruffle feathers (as does the content), rather than seriously inquire about the rationale. And the arguments are generally recaps of articles that agree with the author, rather than actual pain points hit when trying to create something with Clojure or ClojureScript. The responses throwing troll around are the attempt of the community to point out that this list's main purpose is to help people, not for inflammatory content that belongs in blog posts. As for responding with OK, this guy clearly doesn't get it - how can we improve our communication, this goes back to the intent of the author. I don't think the intent was to get anything, I think the intent was to incite. The best response to this is to ignore it, and that is what I should have done, but it is easier to say than to do. - Mark On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 5:08 AM, Colin Yates colin.ya...@gmail.com wrote: Absolutely nothing to add to the argument as such except to say that I am quite surprised at the level of resistance to James' thread. I can see the argument if this was the 'dev' mailing list. I have been reading this mailing list for a long while now (even if I haven't contributed much to it) but if this had been the first post I had read I would have a very negative opinion of the *clojure community*. It comes off as sounding like if you don't like what we do, go away - it is our way or the highway, which would be a terrible shame as I don't *think* that is the case? If I wanted that atmosphere there are plenty of other places to go. Sure, I get that James' email didn't really provide any points of discussion, it was more a moan (sorry James ;)), but so what - I don't see anybody shooting down ClojureScript - I love it type posts. And maybe a better response would be asking OK, this guy clearly doesn't get it - how can we improve our communication? Rich - we are *all* grateful and I expect I am not alone in being amazed at the technical marvel you have pulled out of the hat. But to be honest I think you need a thicker skin. Getting your strokes from the mailing list is dangerous at best. To be disheartened by one negative post in the midst of positive votes is a bit worrying. If this mailing list is for the community to discuss Clojure and ask Clojurians for help then these responses were inappropriate. If this mailing list is to big up Clojure then fine - but make that explicit. Col (surprisingly disappointed and feels strongly enough to send this at the risk of being called a troll himself!) P.S. Strongly opinionated communities that shoots down criticisms of the great leaders' achievements is unfortunately not breaking new ground
Re: Parsing double with default value
Alan, Your with-default fn is neat. So it appears there's no idiomatic/built-in clojure fn/macro to do parsing and wrapper functions such as follow would be needed to avoid typing the whole expression every time. (def parse-double (with-default #(Double. %) 0.0)) (def parse-int (with-default #(Integer. %) 0)) ... Thanks, siyu -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Parsing double with default value
Tassilo and Alan, Thanks for responding. We're new to clj and don't have a good feel of when to you use macros over functions. (defmacro with-dflt Runs body in a try/catch returning result of body if no exception otherwise default [default body] `(try (do ~@body) (catch Exception _# ~default))) Here's how it could be used with map, but it needs to be wrapped in an anonymous function and I think that was part of your point. (map #(err/with-dflt 42.0 (Double. %)) [0 1.5 3.8e-1 broken 0x1.bP2 Infinity NaN]) (0.0 1.5 0.38 42.0 6.75 Infinity NaN) We are using it in map like this, (map #(err/with-dflt 0.0 (- % r Double.)) [Holding OA Dur OA Cvx KRDur 6M KRDur 1Y KRDur 2Y KRDur 5Y KRDur 10Y Mtge Sprd Dur OA Sprd Dur Price PV OA DP/DY KR DP/DY 6M KR DP/DY 1Y KR DP/DY 2Y KR DP/DY 5Y KR DP/DY 10Y]) We also wanted to put a default around any form, (err/with-dflt 0.0 (some #(when (= (% Bench Code) Bench TSY 10Y) (- OA DP/DY % Double.)) (- ctx :run-file-deps :bench :file csv/load-csv)) One style question we have is whether it's worth creating small, specific parse with default functions for doubles and ints or simply to use something like the following inline (err/with-dflt 0.0 (Double. num-str)) If it's worth creating separate parse functions, we were wondering if anybody had packaged up a set already. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: better community docs: getting started
On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 9:03 AM, nchurch nchubr...@gmail.com wrote: Other than not recommending Emacs, do people think that the overall organization I suggested is a good idea? Yes. for now I'd just like to see us not presenting people with twelve options as their first view of Getting Started, all in link form Agreed. -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ World Singles, LLC. -- http://worldsingles.com/ Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://www.getrailo.com/ Perfection is the enemy of the good. -- Gustave Flaubert, French realist novelist (1821-1880) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: determining whether state has changed in a thread safe manner
Hi Sam,
A nice late night exercise...
Not very practical, but if you want a safe transaction-free operation
on an atom which returns whether it was changed, you can perhaps hack
it by embedding the change state into the atom itself:
(def a (atom {:value 45 :changed? false}))
(defn update-and-check-whether-modified?
[update-fn]
(:changed?
(swap! a (fn [{v :value _ :changed?}]
(let [new-v (update-fn v)]
(if (== v new-v)
{:value new-v :changed? false}
{:value new-v :changed? true}))
(update-and-check-whether-modified? (fn [x] (+ x 1)))
(update-and-check-whether-modified? (fn [x] 70))
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Re: Alright, fess up, who's unhappy with clojurescript?
James, If I've misread and/or mischaracterized your intentions, I do apologize for that. I was, and still am, unsure as to your desired outcome from this post. If the intent was for the core team to rewrite ClojureScript to target jQuery instead of GClosure, we both know that was not going to happen. If the intent was to garner support for a fork of ClojureScript that targets jQuery, the path that generally offers the best chance of success is to get a working base or a proof of concept written by yourself, then use that to start recruiting others to help. If the intent was to be able to use jQuery with ClojureScript, you can already do that. This may help get you started: https://gist.github.com/1096382 If the issue was that you have been trying to write something in ClojureScript, but have been running into issues, or feel there is a better way to do it that you may be missing, post the code you have and what your desired outcome is, and I guarantee someone can offer advice. There are truly some geniuses in this list, and many extremely helpful people in general. In any case, I again apologize for any misunderstanding on my part, and sincerely hope you give Clojure and ClojureScript a fair try. - Mark On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 6:11 PM, James Keats james.w.ke...@gmail.comwrote: Perhaps I should've just looked for a blog about knitting or cupcakes and posted what I did here about clojure/clojurescript in it. That way you fine folks won't get to read it, eventhough no one here is obliged in any way to read my posts or any in this thread. Yeah, definitely, that way I might've made sure that I didn't incite any controversy or ruffle any feathers; god forbid that should ever be done here. I ask, what is it that I did other than seriously inquire about the rationale?! I don't see me making any jokes and I don't see me doing anything other than seriously inquire about the rationale. I'm sorry, but if you fine folks choose to blind and deafen yourself to my seriuos inquiry about the rationale and call me a troll for it, then there's a big wide merciless world out there that'll find it absolutely ridiculous for Rich Hickey to rail against classes and inheritance on and on and then favor a library and post a link titled inheritance that argues for hoisting a pseudoclassical version of it upon a language that tries to be functional as proof that it is advantageous. Perhaps clojure itself should have classes and inheritance and Rich should instead of apologizing for having once taught it to people apologize for teaching them clojure. Fine, I am done with this (- back to scala); I have better things to do than being called a troll. ignore me all you want, if that's how you want it then it the world out there will ignore you. (ps. what's quotes below mischaracterizes what my psots) On Jul 25, 1:28 pm, Mark Rathwell mark.rathw...@gmail.com wrote: Colin, I don't think anyone responding was doing so with the mindset of my way or the highway and we must defend the great leader's achievements. Speaking for myself, I responded to an argument that did not make sense, that argument being basically: Crockford says javascript can be written a certain way, jQuery generally follows this pattern and it is popular, Google Closure does not follow this pattern in some ways and is not as popular, therefore it should not be used for ClojureScript. Nobody is shooting down I love it type posts because they do come off as intentionally inflammatory. The titles of these posts seem aimed to incite controversy and ruffle feathers (as does the content), rather than seriously inquire about the rationale. And the arguments are generally recaps of articles that agree with the author, rather than actual pain points hit when trying to create something with Clojure or ClojureScript. The responses throwing troll around are the attempt of the community to point out that this list's main purpose is to help people, not for inflammatory content that belongs in blog posts. As for responding with OK, this guy clearly doesn't get it - how can we improve our communication, this goes back to the intent of the author. I don't think the intent was to get anything, I think the intent was to incite. The best response to this is to ignore it, and that is what I should have done, but it is easier to say than to do. - Mark On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 5:08 AM, Colin Yates colin.ya...@gmail.com wrote: Absolutely nothing to add to the argument as such except to say that I am quite surprised at the level of resistance to James' thread. I can see the argument if this was the 'dev' mailing list. I have been reading this mailing list for a long while now (even if I haven't contributed much to it) but if this had been the first post I had read I would have a very negative opinion of the *clojure community*. It comes off as
Re: determining whether state has changed in a thread safe manner
Of course, once posted, I realised the conditional could be
eliminated:
(defn update-and-check-whether-modified?
[update-fn]
(:changed?
(swap! a (fn [{v :value _ :changed?}]
(let [new-v (update-fn v)]
{:value new-v :changed? (not= v new-v)})
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Re: :require farms in Clojure?
2011/7/25 Meikel Brandmeyer m...@kotka.de Salut Laurent, Am 25.07.2011 um 18:54 schrieb Laurent PETIT: And then goodbye statical analysis ... :-) I didn't say, that I think it's a good idea to do this. :) On the other hand I'm not afraid of dynamic analysis either. That's what VimClojure does at the moment anyway. Static analysis is – in general – confined to special cases known to the analyzer in the presence of macros. In practice it's probably doable in a reasonable way. Certainly, ccw/eclipse also does dynamic analysis currently, but I still have the idea of using static analysis for when no REPL is started, for some kinds of refactorings, etc. In the end, I find it interesting to be able to reconcile the static dynamic views, maybe eventually being able to say to the user: beware, you're looking at a function definition in a file that's more recent in the repl, would you like to update, etc. Cordialement Meikel -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: ClojureScript on Windows
Taking a look at the content of some of these scripts, I would not be surprised if a lein plugin, and probably also a maven archetype, would come up rapidly (if not already under my radar !) Cheers, -- Laurent 2011/7/25 Timothy Baldridge tbaldri...@gmail.com Is there a documented way to get ClojureScript working on Windows? While I'm familiar with Linux, and use it in several server environments, all my development is on Windows, so I don't really have access to a Linux box for development. Timothy -- “One of the main causes of the fall of the Roman Empire was that–lacking zero–they had no way to indicate successful termination of their C programs.” (Robert Firth) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: clooj, a lightweight IDE for clojure
Hi, I'm just back after some vacations without Internet connections. Please give me a couple more days to emerge from the tons of emails and workload, and I'll gladly help you in any possible ways. Cheers, -- Laurent 2011/7/18 Arthur Edelstein arthuredelst...@gmail.com On Jul 18, 2:31 am, Shantanu Kumar kumar.shant...@gmail.com wrote: This is so cool. Any chance you can use Laurent Petit's Paredit? https://github.com/laurentpetit/paredit.clj Thanks, that's a very interesting idea. Perhaps, if Laurent doesn't mind! :) Any roadmap for features? Syntax highlight, autocomplete etc? I'm adding Issues to the github project now. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: [ANN] ClojureScript
Anyone successfully stated this thing on windows yet? I tried in no avail ... -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Alright, fess up, who's unhappy with clojurescript?
On Jul 25, 6:11 pm, James Keats james.w.ke...@gmail.com wrote: I ask, what is it that I did other than seriously inquire about the rationale?! You started a thread with the non-serious title, Alright, fess up, whose unhappy with clojurescript? instead of the more serious Comments on the clojurescript rationale. Having done that, you could have addressed the rationale. then there's a big wide merciless world out there that'll find it absolutely ridiculous for Rich Hickey to rail against classes and inheritance on and on and then favor a library and post a link titled inheritance that argues for hoisting a pseudoclassical version of it upon a language that tries to be functional as proof that it is advantageous. Perhaps clojure itself should have classes and inheritance and Rich should instead of apologizing for having once taught it to people apologize for teaching them clojure. Oh dear, this is jumbled prose for someone who always advocates taking a managerial attitude. So much for the managerial attitude. What happened to love you, man? One gathers that managers offer conditional apologies and then quickly and resentfully withdraw them. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Problem with ClojureScript and Node.js
I also experience this problem; switching nodejs versions (0.4.11-pre
== v0.4 branch, 0.4.10 and 0.5.2) did not have any effect.
When compiling with:
bin/cljsc samples/nodehello.cljs '{:target :nodejs :optimizations
:simple :pretty-print true}' nodehello.js
the (first) relevant line for this error seems to be:
goog.global.Date.prototype.cljs$core$IEquiv$ = !0;
I don't get why this is goog.global.Date and not goog.date.Date, or
where the definition should actually come from; somehow it smells like
config trouble or (most likely) user error.
Regards,
tok
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Re: Leiningen on OpenBSD
I'm going to listen to Aaron's initial advice and follow the path of least resistance by switching from OpenBSD to Linux (Arch) for Clojure development. Thanks all for your help. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: ClojureScript
I would also love to know how you set this up in a little more detail. It
really sounds like an excellent approach…
Sure: it's not complicated! I'm writing this in a hurry though- so
hope it's still clear.
Basically I just define a memoized dynamic scripts function that
returns a map with a text/javascript Ring response, along with a hash
of that response.
So something like (def dynamic-scripts (memoize (function []
{:response foobar :hash (make-hash foobar)}))
Then I've got a Compojure route configured to serve requests like so:
(GET /dynamic-stuff/:hash/scripts.js {} (:response (dynamic-
scripts)))
This'll just send back the memoized script response anytime a request
is made for /dynamic-stuff/whatever/scripts.js
The /whatever/ is important since it let's me automatically include
the current hash in any script tags in the HTML with URI (str /
dynamic-stuff/ (:hash (dynamic-scripts)) /scripts.js).
Now all I need to do when I want to tweak the scripts is reevaluate
the namespace they're in and it'll re-hash, meaning that all future
requests for scripts.js go to the new resource - avoiding any possible
caching issues.
What I've described so far doesn't necessitate anything ClojureScript.
But with ClojureScript, the dynamic-scripts function can be easily
modified to produce it's response by compiling ClojureScript source.
This is awesome since it means I can keep everything in one
environment, and compilation happens automatically any time there is a
change to the underlying source. The scripts.js is always optimized,
always up-to-date, and always hashed to avoid caching problems.
When I want to test a change to the scripts, I just reevaluate the ns
then refresh my browser and the changes are live. If there's a major
compile-time bug in the scripts, it'll get caught before any changes
take affect.
BTW if the devs are listening, it'd be nice if cljsc/build could one
day also support input/output directly via strings :) That'd make all
this absolutely trivial(er).
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Peter
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Calling clojure from java.
Hi,
I am using the Lobos library - https://github.com/budu/lobos
In it there's a function create, which is called like this - (create db
(table :some-name)), where db is earlier defined as - (def db
{:classname org.postgresql.Driver
:subprotocol postgresql
:user postgres
:password
:subname //localhost:5432/flyway})
If I have to call the above function from Java, how do I -
1) define the def (do I have to load some variable)?
2) I am loading the reqd. lobos libraries using [ RT.load(lobos/core,
true); ] and then getting the reference to the create function like - [ Var
foo = RT.var(lobos.core, create); ]
But how do I pass the required arguments to this function. Do I need to
create an array?
Any help is truly appreciated.
Thanks,
Manoj.
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