Re: Stus-List Buckled Topsides at the Chainplates (was Re: Brokers and surveyors)

[RANDY via CnC-List]

So, what I've got is a "flat spot", not a "hard spot", in Don Casey's language. 
He says "Flat spots in the curved parts of a hull indicate trouble. They 
occasionally occur because the manufacturer removed the hull from the mold too 
soon, but more often they indicate weakness, damage, or a poorly executed 
repair. Rigging tension can dimple a flimsy hull around the chainplate 
attachment points." 

This is consistent with what Mike Hoyt said earlier in this thread, about the 
boatbuilder and marina founder in his former club noticing and repairing this 
kind of dimpling in just about every C 30 MK I he brought in to the marina 
for resale. 

In my boat's case (30-1 hull #7) the hull is solid fiberglass, not cored, with 
a "hanging knee" on the inside to which the chainplate bolts. I don't know if 
that hanging knee is cored or not. But I'll find out soon when I pull the 
chainplates for inspection and re-bedding. I also don't know if a solid 
fiberglass hull is more or less "flimsy" than a cored hull. 

In any case, I'll inspect and the area again very carefully, including 
percussion testing for delamination, and looking for cracked tabbing etc. where 
knee meets hull. Hopefully this is not an indication of flimsiness, weakness, 
or damage, but rather an example of an apparently common and benign (?) issue 
in early 30-1s caused by overtightened shrouds. 

Rick Bushie if you're reading this, I'd love to hear whether Anchovy has this 
issue. Same goes for any other 30-1 owners reading this. 

Again my surveyor did not flag this, demonstrating Dave S.'s original point 
about the variability of surveyors. And I didn't notice it until after buying 
the boat, while "Inspecting the Aging Sailboat" myself to understand in detail 
what I'd bought into. Now I wish I'd read Don Casey first :) 

But I'm not panicked about it. I sailed Grenadine in 30+ knots several times 
this year (once under full main and 150% genoa, on port tack close reach in 
fact, stressing that port chainplate knee), and she didn't tear apart. :) And I 
managed to take first in my club's fall series, dimple and all. 

Cheers, 
Randy 



- Original Message -

From: "Dave S via CnC-List"  
To: "C Stus List"  
Cc: "Dave S"  
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2016 5:38:52 PM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Buckled Topsides at the Chainplates (was Re: Brokers and 
surveyors) 

Graham's description is pretty much what I saw on one of two Corvettes I looked 
at closely. IIRC the corvette has one chainplate attached to a bulkhead, 
another to a "hanging knee". In one case (the boat where the hull distortion 
was pronounced) The hanging knee's glass tabbing was fractured. this is really 
not a huge repair for a handy person, and the owner had the work done for a 
reasonable price after we first went over the boat together. Hinterholler was 
quite thoughtful, and cored these boats with plywood that used what I think was 
resorcinol glue. which leeches purple fluid when the wood is wet. Easy to see 
where the water has entered. These repairs do not fix the hull buckling/DIMPLES 
but the boat would probably be improved structurally with a careful DIY 
repair.. I started looking for this problem after that, and I think you'd be 
surprised how many old boats suffer this affliction and how badly distorted 
some are. 

Since we're talking about this...the other corvette - I'll name this one - 
"Egret" was, sadly, a real mess, much of the interior rotten, including those 
knees. The owner was an elderly guy and neglect had claimed the boat, I think I 
could have gotten it for nothing which would not have been a great deal. He 
reached out a few times asking for an offer - any offer - and thankfully I 
resisted the impulse. I wrote him a detailed survey explaining exactly what I 
thought was needed to be repair the boat, which was to replace 75% of the 
interior, bulkheads, etc. (I had poked my finger through a few, and I bet in an 
afternoon with a grinder and zip disc I could have had it to a mostly bare 
shell. This would have been easier than patching what was still intact. He lost 
that document and requested it months later for some other buyer. It would not 
surprise me if it is in the hands of a list member. 
Pretty little boats, I hope someone has restored Egret - a pleasant winter's 
work for someone with the time. 

Dave 


- Forwarded message -- 
From: Graham Young < grahamyoung...@sbcglobal.net > 
To: " cnc-list@cnc-list.com " < cnc-list@cnc-list.com > 
Cc: 
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2016 14:15:28 + (UTC) 
Subject: 
An over-tensioned rig and/or weak laminate is also one of the explanations that 
Don Casey gives for dimples near the chain plates in his book on inspecting old 
boats. He also points out that "hard spots" may result from the hull flexing 
over an internal structure like a bulkhead. This may be cosmetic, but 
apparently the concern would be whether the glass is 

Re: Stus-List Buckled Topsides at the Chainplates (was Re: Brokers and surveyors)

[Dave S via CnC-List]

Graham's description is pretty much what I saw on one of two Corvettes I
looked at closely.   IIRC the corvette has one chainplate attached to a
bulkhead, another to a "hanging knee".  In one case  (the boat where the
hull distortion was pronounced)  The hanging knee's glass tabbing  was
fractured.  this is really not a huge repair for a handy person, and the
owner had the work done for a reasonable price after we first went over the
boat together.  Hinterholler was quite thoughtful, and cored these boats
with plywood that used what I think was resorcinol glue. which leeches
purple fluid when the wood is wet.   Easy to see where the water has
entered.These repairs do not fix the hull buckling/DIMPLES but the boat
would probably be improved structurally with a careful DIY repair..  I
started looking for this problem after that, and I think you'd be surprised
how many old boats suffer this affliction and how badly distorted some are.

Since we're talking about this...the other corvette - I'll name this one -
"Egret"  was, sadly, a real mess, much of the interior rotten, including
those knees.   The owner was an elderly guy and neglect had claimed the
boat, I think I could have gotten it for nothing which would not have been
a great deal.   He reached out a few times asking for an offer - any offer
- and thankfully I resisted the impulse.  I wrote him a detailed survey
explaining exactly what I thought was  needed to be repair the boat, which
was to replace 75% of the interior, bulkheads, etc.   (I had poked my
finger through a few, and I bet in an afternoon with a grinder and zip disc
I could have had it to a mostly bare shell.   This would have been easier
than patching what was still intact.   He lost that document and requested
it months later for some other buyer.  It would not surprise me if it is in
the hands of a list member.
Pretty little boats, I hope someone has restored Egret - a pleasant
winter's work for someone with the time.

Dave


- Forwarded message --
From: Graham Young 
To: "cnc-list@cnc-list.com" 
Cc:
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2016 14:15:28 + (UTC)
Subject:
An over-tensioned rig and/or weak laminate is also one of the explanations
that Don Casey gives for dimples near the chain plates in his book on
inspecting old boats.  He also points out that "hard spots" may result from
the hull flexing over an internal structure like a bulkhead.  This may be
cosmetic, but apparently the concern would be whether the glass is
fractured and the hull weakened.

He also recommends standing astern to see if the hull (and rudder/keel) are
fair and true as they can distort over time for a variety of reasons
including how they are blocked in the yard.

These are not issue unique to C's, but potentially could afflict most any
boat.

Graham
Spellbound
Cleveland, O.
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Re: Stus-List Inverter to Outlet Via Extension Cord?

[David via CnC-List]

So I know enough to know to be careful and decided to isolate the inverter to 
its own dedicated newly installed plug. Properly wired and chassis grounded as 
well.


Its all we will need.  Thanks for everyone's input.


David F. Risch
(401) 419-4650 (cell)



From: CnC-List  on behalf of Tim Goodyear via 
CnC-List 
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2016 7:12 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Tim Goodyear; Michael Brown
Subject: Re: Stus-List Inverter to Outlet Via Extension Cord?

Like 'ground' systems, marine systems are required to connect neutral to ground 
at the source of power, whether that is somewhere at the top of the dock for 
shore power, or at the generator or inverter.  One of the most important 
connections at the inverter is from chassis ground to the boat's grounding bus. 
On a marine inverter, there should be a switch that opens the ground to neutral 
connection when it is providing pass-through shore power and closes it when it 
is generating AC power itself.  I presume that the WM 1kW versions have a 
neutral/ground connection within them, but it would be very worth checking!

Tim
Ex-Mojito
Newport, RI

On Oct 24, 2016, at 2:31 PM, Michael Brown via CnC-List 
> wrote:

Hopefully the inverter will come with very clear instructions on how to
handle ground and neutral.

For normal power, ie shore power, this is the US code:

"The National Electrical Code ( NEC ) requires the AC source to have a Neutral 
to ground bond
and that there be only one such bond in the entire AC system."

So only at the distribution panel is there a bond between neutral and ground. 
They should
never be connected together intentionally at the load. This document covers 
grounding and
bonding, may also cure insomnia.

https://www.engineereducators.com/docs/groundingandbonding2-2.pdf

Grounding an AC system is done to limit the effect of a lightning strike, maybe 
an upstream
over voltage fault. Bonding the green wire that comes in a three prong plug ( 
also called a
ground ) to Neutral at the distribution panel is to ensure a low resistance 
return path for
a fault. So if anything happens the desired effect is that a hot to ground 
short will occur
which in turn will cause an over current surge blowing the circuit breakers.

A person can be electrocuted even with a properly installed and grounded AC 
system
without the circuit breakers tripping.

Unless an inverter has some specific design that uses a ground bonding the 
Neutral and
ground together is not going to do much. Check out the last Q from Xantrex 
here:

http://www.xantrex.com/documents/tech-doctor/universal/tech4-universal.pdf

Similarly with an inverter connected to a battery that is not grounded a GFCI 
should
never trip. Theoretically in a floating system the power has to come out of the 
Hot
lead and return in the Neutral. There will never be a ground fault to trip a 
GFCI.
There is no ground.

I suppose an inverter manufacturer could create a third connection back to the
power circuit Neutral that bypasses the GFCI. A short to that wire would cause
an imbalance and trip the GFCI. Then you would be connecting a floating
Neutral to the loads "ground" which may be exactly what the Xantrex article says
not to do.

Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1




From: Ron Ricci >

David,

I've followed some of this thread and have a few concerns where some have
mentioned using an inexpensive inverter.

Using an inverter that is not intended for marine use or not properly
grounded can cause problems.  An inverter can produce short duration spikes
which exceed the insulation rating of most wires.  This becomes an issue in
wet areas and will cause insulation failure.

There are other issues relating to inducing corrosion.  A friend who
coincidentally keeps his boat in RI and is the technical support guru for a
company that sells variable frequency drives (inverters for AC motors) had
to replace his propellers when he used an inverter he bought from Harbor
Freight.  It was probably fine for anything other than marine use.

If the neutral on the inverter is not grounded, the neutral can kill you
regardless of the presence of a GFCI.

Just my thoughts,

Ron Ricci
S/V Patriot
C 37+
Bristol, RI
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Re: Stus-List Buckled Topsides at the Chainplates (was Re: Brokers and surveyors)

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Thanks Mike, that's good info. If it was from over-tightening the shrouds, that 
must have been done by some PO. I just follow the owner's manual prescriptions 
- tightening the uppers until they're "hard to turn", and the lowers until they 
have an inch of play. I've never even put a strain gauge on them. 

Regarding the dimple, I'll be sanding and repainting the topsides this 
offseason or next, depending on the speed of higher-priority projects this 
offseason (rebuilding mast step, overhauling bilge pumps and plumbing, 
re-bedding chainplates, adding folding prop, replacing exterior handrails, 
adjusting transmission "clutch", couple electrical projects, etc.). At that 
time I will fix some other gelcoat gouges and fill & fair that dimple. Any 
suggestions on materials to use for that job? I'll sand all old paint and 
primer off in preparation. 

Cheers, 
Randy 

- Original Message -

From: "Mike via CnC-List Hoyt"  
To: "cnc-list"  
Cc: "Mike Hoyt"  
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2016 7:01:14 AM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Buckled Topsides at the Chainplates (was Re: Brokers and 
surveyors) 



Randy 



At our previous club (Barrachois Harbour Yacht Club) one of our members and the 
founder of the marina was a former boat builder and was at the time buying and 
bringing boats to the marina for resale (smart way to fill a new marina). As a 
boat builder Dana would refurbish most of the boats prior to reselling them. 
Usually this included rebidding of chainplates, often recoring the deck in that 
area and sometimes even repainting the topsides (usually Awlgrip if I remember 
correctly). The favourite boat for Dana to bring in was the C 30-1 although 
there were also Aloha 27s, C 27-3 and even a couple Niagara 26 and a C or 
2. Dana noticed the dimpling on just about every C His opinion was that it 
occurs from tensioning the rig tightly (shrouds). When refinishing topsides he 
normally had to fill these dimples to make the finished painted product look as 
it should to his satisfaction. 



A funny side note to this story. The one C 30 that they decided to keep as 
their own was briefly considered to be renamed “Spray Nine”. Dana had painted 
the boat once (three coats) and was not completely satisfied. He repainted the 
boat again and then a third or fourth time. Eventually using 9 coats in total 
before he was finally satisfied. This 1979 C 30 was immaculate. It is now 
known as Fly by Wire and still looks fantastic. (with no dimples) 



Mike 

Persistence 

Halifax 




From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of RANDY via 
CnC-List 
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2016 12:01 AM 
To: Dave 
Cc: RANDY; cnc-list 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Buckled Topsides at the Chainplates (was Re: Brokers and 
surveyors) 





Thanks Dave. My boat has a non-hydraulic backstay adjuster, and has a "dimple" 
in the topsides in the area of the port chainplate. I did have it 
professionally surveyed, and the surveyor didn't mention it or didn't notice 
it. I also inspected the boat carefully myself after buying it, following the 
procedures in Don Casey's "Inspecting the Aging Sailboat" (including standing 
astern and ahead looking at the verticality of the keel and rudder through a 
grid drawn on a clear sheet of plastic). 





Anyway the "dimple" is an oval-shaped flat spot in the curvature of the hull, 
about 9" high by 6" wide, on the port side only, in the vicinity of the 
chainplate, centered some 12" above the waterline. You can see it pretty well 
in this picture: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-NqAxQ6JxFTQzlqNkNhR1djSmc 
. It's the dark disruption in the reflections off the topsides. 





I'd welcome any opinions on what this may be. I have no indication that part of 
the hull, or the chainplate knee, is anything but completely solid and 
immobile. Nor do I have any indication this blemish has any effect on the 
sailing characteristics of the boat. Thanks in advance. 





Best Regards, 


Randy Stafford 


S/V Grenadine 


C 30-1 #7 


Ken Caryl, CO 

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Re: Stus-List Buckled Topsides at the Chainplates (was Re: Brokers and surveyors)

[Graham Young via CnC-List]

Hi Randy,
Yes, that's it. I don't know about you, but for me as someone who is relatively 
new to sailing and did not grow up around boats his books are indispensable as 
I try to learn my way around boat maintenance.
Regards , 
Graham

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 11:12 AM, RANDY via CnC-List 
wrote:   Thanks Dave.  Regarding the book, the actual book I have is Don 
Casey's "Complete Illustrated Sailboat Maintenance Manual" - 
https://www.amazon.com/Caseys-Complete-Illustrated-Sailboat-Maintenance/dp/0071462848
 - which is a compilation of six of his other books.  Its first volume is 
"Inspecting the Aging Sailboat".  I'm finding it to be a very helpful reference.
Cheers,
Randy
From: "Dave S" 
To: "RANDY" 
Cc: "cnc-list" 
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2016 4:39:59 AM
Subject: Re: Buckled Topsides at the Chainplates (was Re: Stus-List Brokers and 
surveyors)

There are others on the list with factory/design experience who will be able to 
give a much more informed answer however. if it corresponds to some kind of 
internal structure I would hazard an amateur guess that its a "hard spot".  the 
boat changes shape a bit over time but can't do so in that spot because of an 
immovable structural object inside.  If you look closely at older boats, 
especially darker coloured hulls, you will see this sometimes.      That is 
basically a very, very, mild version of what I saw, which was - I think -  the 
result of the ends of the boat being lifted by the fore and backstays over 
time, and the sides buckling outward between the chainplates a bit as a result. 
 (looked like that anyway) It may also be that the hull may shrink/move  a bit 
after being released from the mold, but again, others will know more about the 
sources of visual imperfections, I'm sure.    Could also be a past repair?    
Regardless, I bet its nothing to be concerned about.Will keep my eye out for 
that book, probably a ton of stuff I've missed over the years.
Dave


On 27 November 2016 at 23:00, RANDY  wrote:

Thanks Dave.  My boat has a non-hydraulic backstay adjuster, and has a "dimple" 
in the topsides in the area of the port chainplate.  I did have it 
professionally surveyed, and the surveyor didn't mention it or didn't notice 
it.  I also inspected the boat carefully myself after buying it, following the 
procedures in Don Casey's "Inspecting the Aging Sailboat" (including standing 
astern and ahead looking at the verticality of the keel and rudder through a 
grid drawn on a clear sheet of plastic).
  
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Buckled Topsides at the Chainplates (was Re: Brokers and surveyors)

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Thanks Dave. Regarding the book, the actual book I have is Don Casey's 
"Complete Illustrated Sailboat Maintenance Manual" - 
https://www.amazon.com/Caseys-Complete-Illustrated-Sailboat-Maintenance/dp/0071462848
 - which is a compilation of six of his other books. Its first volume is 
"Inspecting the Aging Sailboat". I'm finding it to be a very helpful reference. 

Cheers, 
Randy 

- Original Message -

From: "Dave S"  
To: "RANDY"  
Cc: "cnc-list"  
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2016 4:39:59 AM 
Subject: Re: Buckled Topsides at the Chainplates (was Re: Stus-List Brokers and 
surveyors) 

There are others on the list with factory/design experience who will be able to 
give a much more informed answer however. if it corresponds to some kind of 
internal structure I would hazard an amateur guess that its a "hard spot". the 
boat changes shape a bit over time but can't do so in that spot because of an 
immovable structural object inside. If you look closely at older boats, 
especially darker coloured hulls, you will see this sometimes. That is 
basically a very, very, mild version of what I saw, which was - I think - the 
result of the ends of the boat being lifted by the fore and backstays over 
time, and the sides buckling outward between the chainplates a bit as a result. 
(looked like that anyway) It may also be that the hull may shrink/move a bit 
after being released from the mold, but again, others will know more about the 
sources of visual imperfections, I'm sure. Could also be a past repair? 
Regardless, I bet its nothing to be concerned about. 
Will keep my eye out for that book, probably a ton of stuff I've missed over 
the years. 

Dave 



On 27 November 2016 at 23:00, RANDY < randy.staff...@comcast.net > wrote: 



Thanks Dave. My boat has a non-hydraulic backstay adjuster, and has a "dimple" 
in the topsides in the area of the port chainplate. I did have it 
professionally surveyed, and the surveyor didn't mention it or didn't notice 
it. I also inspected the boat carefully myself after buying it, following the 
procedures in Don Casey's "Inspecting the Aging Sailboat" (including standing 
astern and ahead looking at the verticality of the keel and rudder through a 
grid drawn on a clear sheet of plastic). 



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make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
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Stus-List C 26ft Encounter

[Michael Hodgins via CnC-List]

I just found out about this site yesterday wish I had known earlier. Anyway
I am selling my 1979 26 ft Encounter. here is a link to Craigslist I am in
Virginia Thank you for looking.

 http://norfolk.craigslist.org/boa/5895763241.html
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Stus-List MO Pole refurb

[Daniel Sheer via CnC-List]

For what it's worth, I refurbed Pegathy's MO pole 2 years ago. Sanded the 
fiberglass pole, painted it with Krylon for plastic. Has held up well. Peeled 
the rubber coating from the float, and painted that with the rubber coating 
used for pliers' handles. That's held up well, too, but it's not smooth - it 
shows the imperfections in the foam used for the float. I don't care. I use and 
old MO light which must be turned on manually when deploying. Less than ideal, 
but it's attached to the pole just below the flag at the top and shines 360 
degrees - a definite advantage for both swimmer and remaining crew.  

Dan SheerPegathy LF38Rock Creek off the Patapsco


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All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Buckled Topsides at the Chainplates (was Re: Brokers and surveyors)

[Graham Young via CnC-List]

An over-tensioned rig and/or weak laminate is also one of the explanations that 
Don Casey gives for dimples near the chain plates in his book on inspecting old 
boats.  He also points out that "hard spots" may result from the hull flexing 
over an internal structure like a bulkhead.  This may be cosmetic, but 
apparently the concern would be whether the glass is fractured and the hull 
weakened.
He also recommends standing astern to see if the hull (and rudder/keel) are 
fair and true as they can distort over time for a variety of reasons including 
how they are blocked in the yard.
These are not issue unique to C's, but potentially could afflict most any 
boat.
GrahamSpellboundCleveland, O. 
 

On Monday, November 28, 2016 9:02 AM, "Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List" 
 wrote:
 

 #yiv8637796419 #yiv8637796419 -- _filtered #yiv8637796419 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 
4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv8637796419 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 
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span.yiv8637796419BalloonTextChar {}#yiv8637796419 .yiv8637796419MsoChpDefault 
{font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv8637796419 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 
1.0in;}#yiv8637796419 div.yiv8637796419WordSection1 {}#yiv8637796419 Randy    
At our previous club (Barrachois Harbour Yacht Club) one of our members and the 
founder of the marina was a former boat builder and was at the time buying and 
bringing boats to the marina for resale (smart way to fill a new marina).  As a 
boat builder Dana would refurbish most of the boats prior to reselling them.  
Usually this included rebidding of chainplates, often recoring the deck in that 
area and sometimes even repainting the topsides (usually Awlgrip if I remember 
correctly).  The favourite boat for Dana to bring in was the C 30-1 although 
there were also Aloha 27s, C 27-3 and even a couple Niagara 26 and a C or 
2.  Dana noticed the dimpling on just about every C  His opinion was that 
it occurs from tensioning the rig tightly (shrouds).  When refinishing topsides 
he normally had to fill these dimples to make the finished painted product look 
as it should to his satisfaction.    A funny side note to this story.  The one 
C 30 that they decided to keep as their own was briefly considered to be 
renamed “Spray Nine”.  Dana had painted the boat once (three coats) and was not 
completely satisfied.  He repainted the boat again and then a third or fourth 
time.  Eventually using 9 coats in total before he was finally satisfied.  This 
1979 C 30 was immaculate.  It is now known as Fly by Wire and still looks 
fantastic.  (with no dimples)    Mike Persistence Halifax    From: CnC-List 
[mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com]On Behalf Of RANDY via CnC-List
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2016 12:01 AM
To: Dave
Cc: RANDY; cnc-list
Subject: Re: Stus-List Buckled Topsides at the Chainplates (was Re: Brokers and 
surveyors)    Thanks Dave.  My boat has a non-hydraulic backstay adjuster, and 
has a "dimple" in the topsides in the area of the port chainplate.  I did have 
it professionally surveyed, and the surveyor didn't mention it or didn't notice 
it.  I also inspected the boat carefully myself after buying it, following the 
procedures in Don Casey's "Inspecting the Aging Sailboat" (including standing 
astern and ahead looking at the verticality of the keel and rudder through a 
grid drawn on a clear sheet of plastic).    Anyway the "dimple" is an 
oval-shaped flat spot in the curvature of the hull, about 9" high by 6" wide, 
on the port side only, in the vicinity of the chainplate, centered some 12" 
above the waterline.  You can see it pretty well in this picture: 
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-NqAxQ6JxFTQzlqNkNhR1djSmc.  It's the dark 
disruption in the reflections off the topsides.    I'd welcome any opinions on 
what this may be.  I have no indication that part of the hull, or the 
chainplate knee, is anything but completely solid and immobile.  Nor do I have 
any indication this blemish has any effect on the sailing characteristics of 
the boat.  Thanks in advance.    Best Regards, Randy Stafford S/V Grenadine C 
30-1 #7 Ken Caryl, CO 
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you 

Re: Stus-List Buckled Topsides at the Chainplates (was Re: Brokers and surveyors)

[Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List]

Randy

At our previous club (Barrachois Harbour Yacht Club) one of our members and the 
founder of the marina was a former boat builder and was at the time buying and 
bringing boats to the marina for resale (smart way to fill a new marina).  As a 
boat builder Dana would refurbish most of the boats prior to reselling them.  
Usually this included rebidding of chainplates, often recoring the deck in that 
area and sometimes even repainting the topsides (usually Awlgrip if I remember 
correctly).  The favourite boat for Dana to bring in was the C 30-1 although 
there were also Aloha 27s, C 27-3 and even a couple Niagara 26 and a C or 
2.  Dana noticed the dimpling on just about every C  His opinion was that 
it occurs from tensioning the rig tightly (shrouds).  When refinishing topsides 
he normally had to fill these dimples to make the finished painted product look 
as it should to his satisfaction.

A funny side note to this story.  The one C 30 that they decided to keep as 
their own was briefly considered to be renamed “Spray Nine”.  Dana had painted 
the boat once (three coats) and was not completely satisfied.  He repainted the 
boat again and then a third or fourth time.  Eventually using 9 coats in total 
before he was finally satisfied.  This 1979 C 30 was immaculate.  It is now 
known as Fly by Wire and still looks fantastic.  (with no dimples)

Mike
Persistence
Halifax

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of RANDY via 
CnC-List
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2016 12:01 AM
To: Dave
Cc: RANDY; cnc-list
Subject: Re: Stus-List Buckled Topsides at the Chainplates (was Re: Brokers and 
surveyors)

Thanks Dave.  My boat has a non-hydraulic backstay adjuster, and has a "dimple" 
in the topsides in the area of the port chainplate.  I did have it 
professionally surveyed, and the surveyor didn't mention it or didn't notice 
it.  I also inspected the boat carefully myself after buying it, following the 
procedures in Don Casey's "Inspecting the Aging Sailboat" (including standing 
astern and ahead looking at the verticality of the keel and rudder through a 
grid drawn on a clear sheet of plastic).

Anyway the "dimple" is an oval-shaped flat spot in the curvature of the hull, 
about 9" high by 6" wide, on the port side only, in the vicinity of the 
chainplate, centered some 12" above the waterline.  You can see it pretty well 
in this picture: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-NqAxQ6JxFTQzlqNkNhR1djSmc. 
 It's the dark disruption in the reflections off the topsides.

I'd welcome any opinions on what this may be.  I have no indication that part 
of the hull, or the chainplate knee, is anything but completely solid and 
immobile.  Nor do I have any indication this blemish has any effect on the 
sailing characteristics of the boat.  Thanks in advance.

Best Regards,
Randy Stafford
S/V Grenadine
C 30-1 #7
Ken Caryl, CO
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make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Brokers, surveyors and Buyers Agents

[Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List]

When we purchased Persistence in 2014 we engaged a Buyer’s agent.  In fact I 
had already negotiated the sale and price directly with the owner and then we 
upped the price by 10% and went thru his broker and mine (my idea not his).  He 
had an arrangement where he could get out of the brokered sale but wished to 
give some token amount to his broker anyway for good will.

From my point of view there was much more comfort factor in dealing with a 
broker when doing long distance transactions than doing everything yourself 
from afar.  First off a friend with the same model in Nova Scotia knew of this 
boat and brought it to my attention as a good boat.  From there we saved the 
cost of airfare and accommodations and did not visit the boat in advance of the 
sale.  This likely saved us half of the broker fee all by itself.  With this 
list there are a number of extremely knowledgeable persons who can see as much 
or more than I can and are scattered all over North America and beyond.  Harry 
Hallgring visited the boat in person to lend me his thoughts. This on top of a 
thorough marine survey gave me the comfort I needed.

Brokers.  I worked with a local broker who I knew beforehand.  I also listed 
our J/27 with the same broker to further cement our relationship.  Since I do 
not happen to be an expert on purchasing boats in foreign countries, dealing 
with customs agents, finding reputable surveyors near the boat etc … this was 
very helpful.  On top of that his office was walking distance from my bank and 
I was much more comfortable making the financial transactions locally than over 
a distance by wire etc …  My buyer’s broker helped to make the transaction and 
importation from US to Canada a very smooth process.  My broker found me a 
surveyor that he trusts, had all the customs dealings taken care of in advance 
and overall ensured a smooth transaction.  It costs a buyer no more to do this 
than to deal directly with selling agent as the same commission is now split in 
two.

Anyway.  My dealings with brokers in this transaction and in previous ones has 
always been very positive

Mike
Persistence
1987 Frers 33 #16
Halifax, Nova Scotia
http://users.eastlink.ca/~mhoyt

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Dave S via 
CnC-List
Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2016 9:28 AM
To: C Stus List
Cc: Dave S
Subject: Re: Stus-List Brokers and surveyors

To add to Chuck's thoughts:

A buyer's agent (or even a helpful broker) will be able to provide you with 
information on asking and actual selling prices for broker-sold boats for the 
model you are after.  This is a huge help as there can be a large range as we 
know (in 2013, it was around 30% for the models I was looking at)
As mentioned, many of the boats owned by those on this list are now out of the 
broker market - too cheap - nonetheless, the broker can still make this info 
available to you.

Even with a very high level of trust, every expectation you can dream of should 
be stated in writing, to both the broker and the surveyor. (or the seller if 
applicable) Good fences make good neighbours, and this is not an imposition, it 
protects everyone and maintains friendships.  For most items, clear, friendly, 
communication in an email trail is fine.

Surveyors/surveys  are highly variable, and will not be as thorough or 
effective as you would like.  I have read surveys while looking at boats that 
missed obvious problems, bent rudder shaft, (2 C 34s)  buckled topsides at 
the chainplates...(several older boats with hydraulic backstay adjusters 
fitted)   Specific known issues should be researched by the buyer and 
specifically referenced to the surveyor and broker - again,  in writing.  
Forums and lists like this are fantastic sources of info, and the list members 
know more than surveyors, generally.  (Examples would be  banging kanazaki 
transmissions, worn folding props, rod/wire rigging, keel stub/mast step issues 
on 33-2, 35-3, 41, cracking keels in frozen parts of the world... - no doubt 
there are many many others)  It is rare indeed that  a surveyor will be that 
knowledgable or thorough with regard to a particular model.  (unless he owned 
one, as in Chuck's case)  If I were remote- buying a boat that was worth any 
sort of money I would make a point of inspecting it with the surveyor.

You can often get a survey from the seller.  If available, it makes nice light 
reading while you wait for your own.  ;-)

Already mentioned - check the paperwork for the FOB point.   This is where you 
take title.  Figure out what constitutes your acceptance of the boat's 
condition, document all.

Already mentioned - hold back.

Chuck makes an interesting point - wariness about a price drop.   For someone 
who is handy, this might actually represent an opportunity.   yards are 
expensive to operate and charge a lot of money, (for anything) and any sailboat 
can be hard to sell.Depends on the seller's frame of mind, the issue and 

Re: Stus-List Buckled Topsides at the Chainplates (was Re: Brokers and surveyors)

[Dave via CnC-List]

Thanks Dennis.   Agreed, in most cases,  (see my other reply) however I have  
have  seen several where dimples" would be an understatement.  Agreed also that 
even in the case of the corvette, it was probably not a structural concern, 
though that boat did need one chain plate knee repaired.  My point/the thread 
topic was that it was not mentioned in the survey, that surveyors seldom note 
this, and as a buyer (especially non local) I would want this sort of thing to 
be noted in the survey and to be made aware.  

Dave.

Sent from my iPad

> On Nov 27, 2016, at 10:37 PM, Dennis C.  wrote:
> 
> Dave,
> 
> The list refers to this as "dimples".  In particular there was a discussion 
> years ago regarding early 32's.  You can try to search the archives for it.  
> Conventional wisdom is it is more cosmetic than structural.
> 
> Bottom line is it is not uncommon in older C's.  In my opinion, it has 
> little to do with whether the boat has a backstay or not.
> 
> My 35_1 had slight topside dimpling at the upper shroud braces.  Also visible 
> was the pattern of the roving from post cure shrinkage.  All the blemishes 
> disappeared after sanding and applying high build primer prior to painting.  
> The topsides now are perfectly with smooth.
> 
> Dennis C.
> Touché 35_1 #83
> Mandeville, LA
> 
> 
> On Nov 27, 2016 5:19 PM, "Dave via CnC-List"  wrote:
> First sighted when I was looking at a c corvette.  This boat had older Dark 
> blue awlgrip and had been upgraded (including hydraulic backstab adjuster) 
> and was due again for a general refit
> When sighting down the top sides I detected some deep waviness (like 3/16 to 
> 1/4" distortion)  in the top sides right by the chain plates, and when I 
> looked closely i could see hard spots where the chain plate knees attached to 
> the hull.  This had occurred after the paint, and of course the dark paint 
> made it easier to spot.
> So, I started looking for this in other boats, and was quite surprised to see 
> how often this kind of distortion occurs especially in early '70s boats 
> retrofitted with hydraulic adjusters.   I have never seen it mentioned in a 
> survey.  
> Anyway, don't believe me, stand astern and sight along the top sides of boats 
> at your marina.  
> While you are at it, compare the verticality of the rudder vs the keel.   ;-)
> Dave.  
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Nov 27, 2016, at 9:38 AM, RANDY  wrote:
>> 
>> Dave I was intrigued by your mention below of "buckled topsides at the 
>> chainplates".  What did that look like when you saw it?
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Randy
>> 
>> From: "Dave S via CnC-List" 
>> To: "C Stus List" 
>> Cc: "Dave S" 
>> Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2016 6:27:48 AM
>> Subject: Re: Stus-List Brokers and surveyors
>> 
>> To add to Chuck's thoughts:
>> 
>> ...
>> 
>> Surveyors/surveys  are highly variable, and will not be as thorough or 
>> effective as you would like.  I have read surveys while looking at boats 
>> that missed obvious problems, bent rudder shaft, (2 C 34s)  buckled 
>> topsides at the chainplates...(several older boats with hydraulic backstay 
>> adjusters fitted)   Specific known issues should be researched by the buyer 
>> and specifically referenced to the surveyor and broker - again,  in writing. 
>>  Forums and lists like this are fantastic sources of info, and the list 
>> members know more than surveyors, generally.  (Examples would be  banging 
>> kanazaki transmissions, worn folding props, rod/wire rigging, keel stub/mast 
>> step issues on 33-2, 35-3, 41, cracking keels in frozen parts of the 
>> world... - no doubt there are many many others)  It is rare indeed that  a 
>> surveyor will be that knowledgable or thorough with regard to a particular 
>> model.  (unless he owned one, as in Chuck's case)  If I were remote- buying 
>> a boat that was worth any sort of money I would make a point of inspecting 
>> it with the surveyor.
>> 
>> ...
>> 
> 
> ___
> 
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish 
> to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
> https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
> 
> All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
> 
> 
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Buckled Topsides at the Chainplates (was Re: Brokers and surveyors)

[Dave S via CnC-List]

There are others on the list with factory/design experience who will be
able to give a much more informed answer however. if it corresponds to some
kind of internal structure I would hazard an amateur guess that its a "hard
spot".  the boat changes shape a bit over time but can't do so in that spot
because of an immovable structural object inside.  If you look closely at
older boats, especially darker coloured hulls, you will see this sometimes.
 That is basically a very, very, mild version of what I saw, which was
- I think -  the result of the ends of the boat being lifted by the fore
and backstays over time, and the sides buckling outward between the
chainplates a bit as a result.  (looked like that anyway) It may also be
that the hull may shrink/move  a bit after being released from the mold,
but again, others will know more about the sources of visual imperfections,
I'm sure.Could also be a past repair?Regardless, I bet its nothing
to be concerned about.
Will keep my eye out for that book, probably a ton of stuff I've missed
over the years.

Dave



On 27 November 2016 at 23:00, RANDY  wrote:

> Thanks Dave.  My boat has a non-hydraulic backstay adjuster, and has a
> "dimple" in the topsides in the area of the port chainplate.  I did have it
> professionally surveyed, and the surveyor didn't mention it or didn't
> notice it.  I also inspected the boat carefully myself after buying it,
> following the procedures in Don Casey's "Inspecting the Aging Sailboat"
> (including standing astern and ahead looking at the verticality of the keel
> and rudder through a grid drawn on a clear sheet of plastic).
>
> Anyway the "dimple" is an oval-shaped flat spot in the curvature of the
> hull, about 9" high by 6" wide, on the port side only, in the vicinity of
> the chainplate, centered some 12" above the waterline.  You can see it
> pretty well in this picture: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-
> NqAxQ6JxFTQzlqNkNhR1djSmc.  It's the dark disruption in the reflections
> off the topsides.
>
> I'd welcome any opinions on what this may be.  I have no indication that
> part of the hull, or the chainplate knee, is anything but completely solid
> and immobile.  Nor do I have any indication this blemish has any effect on
> the sailing characteristics of the boat.  Thanks in advance.
>
> Best Regards,
> Randy Stafford
> S/V Grenadine
> C 30-1 #7
> Ken Caryl, CO
>
> --
> *From: *"Dave" 
> *To: *"RANDY" 
> *Cc: *"cnc-list" 
> *Sent: *Sunday, November 27, 2016 4:18:31 PM
> *Subject: *Re: Buckled Topsides at the Chainplates (was Re: Stus-List
> Brokers and surveyors)
>
>
> First sighted when I was looking at a c corvette.  This boat had older
> Dark blue awlgrip and had been upgraded (including hydraulic backstab
> adjuster) and was due again for a general refit
> When sighting down the top sides I detected some deep waviness (like 3/16
> to 1/4" distortion)  in the top sides right by the chain plates, and when I
> looked closely i could see hard spots where the chain plate knees attached
> to the hull.  This had occurred after the paint, and of course the dark
> paint made it easier to spot.
> So, I started looking for this in other boats, and was quite surprised to
> see how often this kind of distortion occurs especially in early '70s boats
> retrofitted with hydraulic adjusters.   I have never seen it mentioned in a
> survey.
> Anyway, don't believe me, stand astern and sight along the top sides of
> boats at your marina.
> While you are at it, compare the verticality of the rudder vs the keel.
> ;-)
> Dave.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Nov 27, 2016, at 9:38 AM, RANDY  wrote:
>
> Dave I was intrigued by your mention below of "buckled topsides at the
> chainplates".  What did that look like when you saw it?
>
> Cheers,
> Randy
>
> --
> *From: *"Dave S via CnC-List" 
> *To: *"C Stus List" 
> *Cc: *"Dave S" 
> *Sent: *Sunday, November 27, 2016 6:27:48 AM
> *Subject: *Re: Stus-List Brokers and surveyors
>
> To add to Chuck's thoughts:
>
> ...
>
> Surveyors/surveys  are highly variable, and will not be as thorough or
> effective as you would like.  I have read surveys while looking at boats
> that missed obvious problems, bent rudder shaft, (2 C 34s)  buckled
> topsides at the chainplates...(several older boats with hydraulic backstay
> adjusters fitted)   Specific known issues should be researched by the buyer
> and specifically referenced to the surveyor and broker - again,  in
> writing.  Forums and lists like this are fantastic sources of info, and the
> list members know more than surveyors, generally.  (Examples would be
>  banging kanazaki transmissions, worn folding props, rod/wire rigging, keel
> stub/mast step issues on 33-2, 35-3, 41, cracking keels in