Re: Stus-List C&C Lister Roll Call

[James Bibb via CnC-List]

James Bibb
Darwin’s Folly
C&C 34-36R, 1991
42900
Juneau, Alaska
jamesb...@me.com

> On Oct 8, 2019, at 11:39 AM, Steve Staten via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> Steve Staten/”C’Est La Vie”/26/1978/Sails #’s?/stevenrsta...@gmail.com 
> /Langley, OK USA
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Re: Stus-List C&C Lister Roll Call

[Chuck Borge via CnC-List]

Hi Edd,

Chuck Borge
Tenacious
C&C 41, 1984
33711
Somerset, MA
chuckbo...@gmail.com

Thanks for keeping a contingency plan for the list.
Best regards,
Chuck


*Chuck Borge*
*508-642-3557*


On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 4:53 PM Edd Schillay via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Listers,
>
> In my spare time, I’m going to start working on an email list / bulletin
> board / photo archive / information center website for C&C Owners, that
> will act as a supplement and perhaps one day, *only* when Stu says he’s
> no longer interested in continuing on, act as a replacement to the service
> we are using now.
>
> I’d like to start compiling a database of C&C Owners. When you have a
> moment, please respond to this email (either to the whole list or by direct
> email to me) with the following information:
>
> Name / Boat name / C&C Model / C&C Year / Sail number / Email Address /
> Home Port
>
> For example:
> Edd Schillay / Starship Enterprise / C&C 37/40+ / 1990 / NCC-1701-B /
> e...@schillay.com / Venice Island, FL
>
> Thanks to all.
>
> And for those of you up north who are reviewing/signing their winter
> haul-out and storage contracts, I can now say, “Nah, Nah. Na-Na Nah!"
>
> All the best,
>
> Edd
>
>
> Edd M. Schillay
> Captain of the Starship Enterprise
> C&C 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B
> Venice Yacht Club | Venice, FL
>
> Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log 
> ___
>
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>
>
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Re: Stus-List windlass and chain without a snubber, good way to lose a boat

[Andrew Burton via CnC-List]

The snubber performs several functions; it takes strain off the windlass, it 
stops the chain clunking as the boat swings ( don’t know about you guys, but 
Masquerade dances around on the hook, it provides just a little more shock 
absorption when the breeze is strong enough to stretch out the chain.
Andy
Masquerade
Currently in Oxford, MD

Andrew Burton
139 Tuckerman Ave
Middletown, RI 
USA02842

www.burtonsailing.com
http://sites.google.com/site/andrewburtonyachtservices/
+401 965-5260

> On Oct 14, 2019, at 18:39, Dennis C. via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> Isn't that what catenary in the anchor chain is for?
> 
> Dennis C.
> Touche' 35-1 #83
> Mandeville, LA
> 
>> On Mon, Oct 14, 2019 at 4:42 PM Robert Boyer via CnC-List 
>>  wrote:
>> I think the use of a snubber is a small part of the problem here.  First, he 
>> never should have anchored near the path of a high-speed ferry.  Second, he 
>> should have tied the end of his anchor chain to the boat so it couldn’t have 
>> gotten loose overboard.  I have never used a snubber on my anchor chain and 
>> I don’t think it would have made much of a difference in this case.  That’s 
>> just my opinion...
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>> Bob Boyer
>> s/v Rainy Days
>> C&C Landfall 38 (Hull # 230)
>> (Presently in Baltimore for the summer)
>> blog: dainyrays.blogspot.com
>> email: dainyr...@icloud.com
>> 
>>> On Oct 14, 2019, at 12:13 PM, Dreuge via CnC-List  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Anyone who uses a windlass and chain without a snubber should watch this 
>>> video.  Note in the video that there is a statement pointing the blame on 
>>> ferry boat wake rather than on the owner failure to use of a snubber by 
>>> saying "very very few people actually use a snubber”.   
>>> 
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vdaxrGfT1M
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -
>>> Paul E.
>>> 1981 C&C Landfall 38 
>>> S/V Johanna Rose
>>> Fort Walton Beach, FL
>>> 
>>> http://svjohannarose.blogspot.com/
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> 
>>> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
>>> every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use 
>>> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>>> 
>> ___
>> 
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>> every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use 
>> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>> 
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Re: Stus-List Crazy Colorado Weather, and Winterizing

[Dennis C. via CnC-List]

What sail plan do you use for 5" of snow?  Can you fly the chute?

Dennis C.

On Mon, Oct 14, 2019 at 4:17 PM Randy Stafford via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Right :)  That’s Colorado.  Wednesday, sunny, 80 degrees, great breeze.
> Went sailing.  By Friday morning 5” snow on the ground and 15 degrees.  By
> Sunday afternoon, back to sunny and 70 for my club’s second-to-last race of
> the year.  I’ve put some Thursday vs. Sunday pictures at
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=1q3dCLVtrYJAI3_ZRQZe3TQ3C1_SdkcIV.
>
> Regarding winterizing, all boats have to be out of Chatfield Marina
> October 31st or sooner, and I winterize after haul-out.   Right now the
> water temp is about 60 degrees so I rely on that thermal mass to keep the
> plumbing warm enough below waterline.  But I did throw an insulated moving
> pad over top of my A4 to keep it from freezing from the top.
>
> The fall sailing in Colorado has been absolutely glorious this year.
> Clear blue skies, pleasant temps, really nice wind.  I’ll be very sad to
> haul the boat in two weeks.
>
> Cheers,
> Randy
>
> On Oct 14, 2019, at 2:40 PM, Bill Coleman via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
> How in the world do you go from 13 ° and shoveling snow off your deck to
> racing the next day? And what about winterizing!?
>
> Bill Coleman
> Erie PA
>
>
> ___
>
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each
> and every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list -
> use PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
>
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Re: Stus-List windlass and chain without a snubber, good way to lose a boat

[Dennis C. via CnC-List]

Isn't that what catenary in the anchor chain is for?

Dennis C.
Touche' 35-1 #83
Mandeville, LA

On Mon, Oct 14, 2019 at 4:42 PM Robert Boyer via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> I think the use of a snubber is a small part of the problem here.  First,
> he never should have anchored near the path of a high-speed ferry.  Second,
> he should have tied the end of his anchor chain to the boat so it couldn’t
> have gotten loose overboard.  I have never used a snubber on my anchor
> chain and I don’t think it would have made much of a difference in this
> case.  That’s just my opinion...
>
> Bob
>
> Bob Boyer
> s/v Rainy Days
> C&C Landfall 38 (Hull # 230)
> (Presently in Baltimore for the summer)
> blog: dainyrays.blogspot.com
> email: dainyr...@icloud.com
>
> On Oct 14, 2019, at 12:13 PM, Dreuge via CnC-List 
> wrote:
>
> Anyone who uses a windlass and chain without a snubber should watch this
> video.  Note in the video that there is a statement pointing the blame on
> ferry boat wake rather than on the owner failure to use of a snubber by
> saying "very very few people actually use a snubber”.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vdaxrGfT1M
>
>
> -
> Paul E.
> 1981 C&C Landfall 38
> S/V Johanna Rose
> Fort Walton Beach, FL
>
> http://svjohannarose.blogspot.com/
>
> ___
>
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each
> and every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list -
> use PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
> ___
>
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each
> and every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list -
> use PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
>
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Re: Stus-List windlass and chain without a snubber, good way to lose a boat

[Robert Boyer via CnC-List]

I think the use of a snubber is a small part of the problem here.  First, he 
never should have anchored near the path of a high-speed ferry.  Second, he 
should have tied the end of his anchor chain to the boat so it couldn’t have 
gotten loose overboard.  I have never used a snubber on my anchor chain and I 
don’t think it would have made much of a difference in this case.  That’s just 
my opinion...

Bob

Bob Boyer
s/v Rainy Days
C&C Landfall 38 (Hull # 230)
(Presently in Baltimore for the summer)
blog: dainyrays.blogspot.com
email: dainyr...@icloud.com

> On Oct 14, 2019, at 12:13 PM, Dreuge via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> Anyone who uses a windlass and chain without a snubber should watch this 
> video.  Note in the video that there is a statement pointing the blame on 
> ferry boat wake rather than on the owner failure to use of a snubber by 
> saying "very very few people actually use a snubber”.   
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vdaxrGfT1M
> 
> 
> -
> Paul E.
> 1981 C&C Landfall 38 
> S/V Johanna Rose
> Fort Walton Beach, FL
> 
> http://svjohannarose.blogspot.com/
> 
> ___
> 
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
> every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use 
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
> 
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Stus-List Crazy Colorado Weather, and Winterizing

[Randy Stafford via CnC-List]

Right :)  That’s Colorado.  Wednesday, sunny, 80 degrees, great breeze.  Went 
sailing.  By Friday morning 5” snow on the ground and 15 degrees.  By Sunday 
afternoon, back to sunny and 70 for my club’s second-to-last race of the year.  
I’ve put some Thursday vs. Sunday pictures at 
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1q3dCLVtrYJAI3_ZRQZe3TQ3C1_SdkcIV.

Regarding winterizing, all boats have to be out of Chatfield Marina October 
31st or sooner, and I winterize after haul-out.   Right now the water temp is 
about 60 degrees so I rely on that thermal mass to keep the plumbing warm 
enough below waterline.  But I did throw an insulated moving pad over top of my 
A4 to keep it from freezing from the top.

The fall sailing in Colorado has been absolutely glorious this year.  Clear 
blue skies, pleasant temps, really nice wind.  I’ll be very sad to haul the 
boat in two weeks.

Cheers,
Randy

> On Oct 14, 2019, at 2:40 PM, Bill Coleman via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> How in the world do you go from 13 ° and shoveling snow off your deck to 
> racing the next day? And what about winterizing!?
>  
> Bill Coleman
> Erie PA

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Re: Stus-List Sailtimer app and racing

[Bill Coleman via CnC-List]

How in the world do you go from 13 ° and shoveling snow off your deck to racing 
the next day? And what about winterizing!?

 

Bill Coleman

Erie PA

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Randy 
Stafford via CnC-List
Sent: Monday, October 14, 2019 11:21 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Randy Stafford
Subject: Re: Stus-List Sailtimer app and racing

 

Hi Dave,

 

Interesting discussion.

 

My experience with SailTimer has been mixed.  I bought their Wind Instrument a 
few years ago and it only lasted a couple seasons because the battery went 
flat.  So I bought their rechargeable battery version in January and they still 
haven’t delivered it.  I still like their concepts and price, but their product 
and service performance has been disappointing.

 

Now to your discussion.  I can appreciate their points that individual wind 
shifts are just parts of the overall average wind direction, and how do you 
know in a given shift whether it represents the “real” wind direction.  
Incidentally that average wind direction seems to be a major factor underlying 
their “optimal course” concept.  I hope they are constantly updating their 
notion of average wind direction as they measure the instantaneous true wind 
direction and shifts in it.

 

Having said that, I got my ass kicked in a race just yesterday because other 
sailors played the wind shifts better than I did.  Our wind at Chatfield was 
oscillating at least 30 degrees yesterday, and some boats guessed right while 
others didn’t.  So I vehemently disagree that headers and lifts are “another 
antiquated racing method.”  That’s a pretty cavalier statement.  And I think 
the shorter the distance from your current position to the next waypoint, the 
more important they become.  I could understand in an ocean race from say 
Newport to Bermuda you might want to give the shifts some time to average out.  
But on a lake the size of Chatfield where the windward mark might be only half 
a mile from the start line, every shift is important.

 

Cheers,

Randy Stafford

S/V Grenadine

C&C 30 MK I #7

Ken Caryl, CO





On Oct 14, 2019, at 7:06 AM, David Knecht via CnC-List  
wrote:

 

I had an email debate last week with the folks who make the Sailtimer app and 
wireless wind instruments.  They claim their app will determine optimal tacking 
angles and adjust them in real time.  I was trying to understand what the 
software did and how it was doing calculations and getting very confusing (to 
me) answers.  As an example, I asked what the software would do if there was a 
header.  My presumption was it would detect the shift and give you some 
feedback or recommend tacking.  It should not be hard to figure out that you 
are going slower toward the mark (VMG).  We agreed taht VMG was problematic 
because it changes as you approach a mark, but their approach was equally 
problematic.  Here is the response I got:

 

Headers and lifts are actually another antiquated racing method, that are very 
clumsy in the age of GPS and computers.  They were great in the 1920s when it 
was impossible to do trigonometry every second in a boat heeled over and 
crashing through waves.  But they make you choose some arbitrary length of time 
to get an average wind direction.  And they make an assumption that the wind is 
going to go back to average later.  If a lift happens for 2 minutes, why call 
that a lift and not say that it is the real wind?  Too many assumptions.  

 

They are not necessary;  why not just always sail on the optimal course to get 
you to the waypoint fastest?  

 

If the wind changes while on the proposed course, the green line moves, and you 
just keep on following it.  There is no such thing as lifts and headers from 
some arbitrary time interval in which the wind direction is averaged.  Your 
goal should be simply to always follow the optimal tacks.  

 

That answer makes absolutely no sense to me.  Their optimal course is based on 
polars as near as I can tell.  More importantly, they are arguing that there is 
no advantage to tacking on a header.  Yes, there is a tactical argument as to 
whether you would tack on every shift in a large keel boat where tacks are slow 
relative to continuing straight, but in any significant shift, my years of 
racing experience plus the math of the sailing angles argues to me that 
Sailtimer's explanation is bogus.  Am I missing something?  Dave

 

S/V Aries

1990 C&C 34+

New London, CT


 

 

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Re: Stus-List Ginkgo/C&C 30-09/1971, Gloucester, Massachusetts

[Ronald B. Frerker via CnC-List]

 Not computer savy enough to search archives, but I seem to recall an email 
that said that the calendar year was not in effect in the ddating process.  
Seems it started in AUG or such???The posting also gave the letters for each 
month.RonWild CheriC&C 30-1STL

On Monday, October 14, 2019, 11:12:53 AM CDT, CHARLES SCHEAFFER via 
CnC-List  wrote:  
 
 I could be wrong but I think HIN numbers are supposed be molded into a new 
hull with the date meaning "when they laid the keel".  

Chuck S  



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Stus-List windlass and chain without a snubber, good way to lose a boat

[Dreuge via CnC-List]

Anyone who uses a windlass and chain without a snubber should watch this video. 
 Note in the video that there is a statement pointing the blame on ferry boat 
wake rather than on the owner failure to use of a snubber by saying "very very 
few people actually use a snubber”.   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vdaxrGfT1M


-
Paul E.
1981 C&C Landfall 38 
S/V Johanna Rose
Fort Walton Beach, FL

http://svjohannarose.blogspot.com/

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Re: Stus-List Ginkgo/C&C 30-09/1971, Gloucester, Massachusetts

[CHARLES SCHEAFFER via CnC-List]

I could be wrong but I think HIN numbers are supposed be molded into a new hull 
with the date meaning "when they laid the keel".   

Chuck S  


> On October 14, 2019 at 11:27 AM Randy Stafford via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Yes, that is a bit of a mystery.
> 
> Is it possible the 9 on your HIN plate indicates the month of build and your 
> hull is earlier than mine?
> 
> My HIN 30007972 decodes as 30, #007, September 1972 (and I’m not sure what 
> the date signifies - when the hull was molded, or when the boat left the 
> factory, or what).
> 
> Cheers,
> Randy
> 
> > On Oct 13, 2019, at 6:35 PM, Richard Klajnscek  
> > wrote:
> > 
> > Hi Randy,
> > 
> > I removed the builder’s plate when I rebuilt the back end of the boat 26 
> > years ago and it was pretty ugly so I didn’t reinstall it. However, I found 
> > it in a file folder - and it says this: CC 30 9 71 N . Whatever was on the 
> > transom was long gone due to old damage. I completely rebuilt the structure 
> > of the boat over many years and think I probably have the only C&C with a 
> > Beneteau aluminum toerail (which worked great).
> > 
> > Now that’s a bit of a mystery that your #7 was built a year after #9??
> > 
> > Rich Klajnscek
> > 
> > Sent from my iPad
> > 
> >> On Oct 13, 2019, at 8:06 PM, Randy Stafford via CnC-List 
> >>  wrote:
> >> 
> >> Hi Rich,
> >> 
> >> Welcome to the list (assuming you just joined, as you said greetings new 
> >> C&C colleagues).
> >> 
> >> I own 30 MK I hull #7, now named Grenadine, berthed at Chatfield 
> >> Reservoir, Colorado.  Her HIN is 30007972, so I’ve always regarded her a 
> >> 1972 boat.
> >> 
> >> What’s Ginkgo’s HIN?  Does she have a HIN plate on the transom?
> >> 
> >> Grenadine has tiller steering and boom-end sheeting to a traveler on the 
> >> transom.  How is Gingko equipped?
> >> 
> >> Cheers,
> >> Randy Stafford
> >> S/V Grenadine
> >> C&C 30-1 #7
> >> Ken Caryl, CO
> >> ___
> >> 
> >> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each 
> >> and every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - 
> >> use PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
> >> 
> > 
> 
> 
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Stus-List Sailtimer app and racing

[Francois Rivard via CnC-List]

 Dave's math is right.

These guys may know their stuff on software but they don't apparently don't
know much about racing a sailboat.  To win you have to work ALL the
details. Completely dismissing any of the components is professing
ignorance.

The racing software helps.. to a point.  I've used their stuff, it's nice
for the start line. I use the built-in stuff on the Zeus, it helps with
laylines and windshifts for example: can do an A <-> B on one tack vs
another for VMG to a given waypoint .

On VMG, both are useful, VMG to wind more so.  Tacking on headers is also
important but that has to be tempered with common sense and chasing puffs
as well...   Sometimes you sail from a good pressure zone to a calm area
and you effectively outrun your wind on momentum which makes it look like
you're getting headed...

+ Sail trim + rig setup, + fast bottom, + fast sails, + competent crew, +
luck,+ good start, + , +, +, +

Neat software helps, but ALL of it counts.. That's what makes it so much
fun, the never ending quest for the perfect run. :-)

Have fun racing, we're hoping for good wind on Wednesday!

-Francois Rivard
1990 34+ "Take Five"
Lake Lanier, GA
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Re: Stus-List Sailtimer app and racing

[Dennis C. via CnC-List]

David,

This may start a "my brain hurts" discussion.  I just read Sailtimer's
discussion here:

http://www.sailtimerapp.com/VMG.html

In that article are links to additional articles which may be enlightening.

Since I don't have the app, I can only surmise what the display looks like
in action.  From seeing a screen shot on their site, it looks like it shows
you a series of optimized tack legs that you simply follow.

In their article they criticize GPS based VMG and rightly so.  However,
their slightly negative opinion of wind based VMG is subject to debate.
Let me take a somewhat circuitous route to reply.  You probably already
know much of what I will say.

As I have said often on this list, GPS VMG is just another datapoint for
the racer.  For those that haven't read my opinion on it, here's a brief
synopsis.

First, some definitions.


   - Velocity is both speed and direction.
   - VMG - velocity made good.
   - GPS VMG - when a waypoint is set, this is the vector component of how
   the boat is closing on the waypoint.  In the Nexus instrument systems, it
   is called waypoint closure velocity, WCV
   - Wind based VMG - the vector component of speed and course directly
   upwind or directly downwind.  Must have input from wind instrument, knotlog
   and compass.
   - SOG - speed over ground
   - COG - course over ground


If you use GPS VMG in windward/leeward racing, you need to be careful.
Many racers will set a waypoint at the windward mark.  Early in the
windward leg, GPS VMG closely approximates WCV.  However, as you near  a
layline, GPS VMG will tend to zero.  You are sailing perpendicular to your
course to the waypoint.

Wind based VMG will still be accurate but will be showing how quickly you
are moving upwind, not towards the waypoint, or windward mark.

So, my guess is that the Sailtimer app first learns the tacking angle for
your boat.  Then, based on that and wind based VMG, back calculates your
optimum tack(s) from the waypoint (if set) to your boat's position.  As the
wind changes, it moves the points at which you should tack and subsequently
moves each tack leg correspondingly.  In it's simplest form, it may
calculate the intersection of your boat's current SOG and COG and it's
calculated layline from the mark.

My opinion, as a racer, is that, IF the lifts and headers aren't dramatic
and/or long lasting, SailTimer's suggested tracks may work well.  This
would be even more true for our slow to accelerate heavy displacement boats
where frequent tacking would actually penalize performance.  I question
whether it would be optimum for the newer, lighter more agile sport boats.

I also wonder how it would react to a continuous shift.  What we racer call
sailing a "great circle route".

Dennis C.
Touche' 35-1 #83
Mandeville, LA

On Mon, Oct 14, 2019 at 8:07 AM David Knecht via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> I had an email debate last week with the folks who make the Sailtimer app
> and wireless wind instruments.  They claim their app will determine optimal
> tacking angles and adjust them in real time.  I was trying to understand
> what the software did and how it was doing calculations and getting very
> confusing (to me) answers.  As an example, I asked what the software would
> do if there was a header.  My presumption was it would detect the shift and
> give you some feedback or recommend tacking.  It should not be hard to
> figure out that you are going slower toward the mark (VMG).  We agreed taht
> VMG was problematic because it changes as you approach a mark, but their
> approach was equally problematic.  Here is the response I got:
>
> *Headers and lifts are actually another antiquated racing method, that are
> very clumsy in the age of GPS and computers.  They were great in the 1920s
> when it was impossible to do trigonometry every second in a boat heeled
> over and crashing through waves.  But they make you choose some arbitrary
> length of time to get an average wind direction.  And they make an
> assumption that the wind is going to go back to average later.  If a lift
> happens for 2 minutes, why call that a lift and not say that it is the real
> wind?  Too many assumptions.  *
>
> *They are not necessary;  why not just always sail on the optimal course
> to get you to the waypoint fastest?  *
>
> *If the wind changes while on the proposed course, the green line moves,
> and you just keep on following it.  There is no such thing as lifts and
> headers from some arbitrary time interval in which the wind direction is
> averaged.  Your goal should be simply to always follow the optimal tacks.  *
>
> That answer makes absolutely no sense to me.  Their optimal course is
> based on polars as near as I can tell.  More importantly, they are arguing
> that there is no advantage to tacking on a header.  Yes, there is a
> tactical argument as to whether you would tack on every shift in a large
> keel boat where tacks are slow relative to continuing straight, but in any
> 

Re: Stus-List Ginkgo/C&C 30-09/1971, Gloucester, Massachusetts

[Richard Klajnscek via CnC-List]

Randy,

The design drawings for the boat were done late 1970 to early 1971, so I 
suspect that the boat went into production late summer or early fall of 1971. 
It makes sense that both of our boats were built in late 1971, mine in November 
(N). Not sure how to explain the discrepancy in your HIN unless they made a 
mistake with the year (as it makes sense that it was built in September 1971 
rather than 1972).

Rich

Rich Klajnscek, P.Eng.
Sea Fox Consulting, LLC
+1-978-239-7321

> On Oct 14, 2019, at 11:27 AM, Randy Stafford  
> wrote:
> 
> Yes, that is a bit of a mystery.
> 
> Is it possible the 9 on your HIN plate indicates the month of build and your 
> hull is earlier than mine?
> 
> My HIN 30007972 decodes as 30, #007, September 1972 (and I’m not sure what 
> the date signifies - when the hull was molded, or when the boat left the 
> factory, or what).
> 
> Cheers,
> Randy
> 
>> On Oct 13, 2019, at 6:35 PM, Richard Klajnscek  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Randy,
>> 
>> I removed the builder’s plate when I rebuilt the back end of the boat 26 
>> years ago and it was pretty ugly so I didn’t reinstall it. However, I found 
>> it in a file folder - and it says this: CC 30 9 71 N . Whatever was on the 
>> transom was long gone due to old damage. I completely rebuilt the structure 
>> of the boat over many years and think I probably have the only C&C with a 
>> Beneteau aluminum toerail (which worked great).
>> 
>> Now that’s a bit of a mystery that your #7 was built a year after #9??
>> 
>> Rich Klajnscek
>> 
>> Sent from my iPad
>> 
>>> On Oct 13, 2019, at 8:06 PM, Randy Stafford via CnC-List 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Rich,
>>> 
>>> Welcome to the list (assuming you just joined, as you said greetings new 
>>> C&C colleagues).
>>> 
>>> I own 30 MK I hull #7, now named Grenadine, berthed at Chatfield Reservoir, 
>>> Colorado.  Her HIN is 30007972, so I’ve always regarded her a 1972 boat.
>>> 
>>> What’s Ginkgo’s HIN?  Does she have a HIN plate on the transom?
>>> 
>>> Grenadine has tiller steering and boom-end sheeting to a traveler on the 
>>> transom.  How is Gingko equipped?
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> Randy Stafford
>>> S/V Grenadine
>>> C&C 30-1 #7
>>> Ken Caryl, CO
>>> ___
>>> 
>>> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
>>> every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use 
>>> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>>> 
>> 
> 
> 

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Re: Stus-List Ginkgo/C&C 30-09/1971, Gloucester, Massachusetts

[Randy Stafford via CnC-List]

Yes, that is a bit of a mystery.

Is it possible the 9 on your HIN plate indicates the month of build and your 
hull is earlier than mine?

My HIN 30007972 decodes as 30, #007, September 1972 (and I’m not sure what the 
date signifies - when the hull was molded, or when the boat left the factory, 
or what).

Cheers,
Randy

> On Oct 13, 2019, at 6:35 PM, Richard Klajnscek  
> wrote:
> 
> Hi Randy,
> 
> I removed the builder’s plate when I rebuilt the back end of the boat 26 
> years ago and it was pretty ugly so I didn’t reinstall it. However, I found 
> it in a file folder - and it says this: CC 30 9 71 N . Whatever was on the 
> transom was long gone due to old damage. I completely rebuilt the structure 
> of the boat over many years and think I probably have the only C&C with a 
> Beneteau aluminum toerail (which worked great).
> 
> Now that’s a bit of a mystery that your #7 was built a year after #9??
> 
> Rich Klajnscek
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
>> On Oct 13, 2019, at 8:06 PM, Randy Stafford via CnC-List 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Rich,
>> 
>> Welcome to the list (assuming you just joined, as you said greetings new C&C 
>> colleagues).
>> 
>> I own 30 MK I hull #7, now named Grenadine, berthed at Chatfield Reservoir, 
>> Colorado.  Her HIN is 30007972, so I’ve always regarded her a 1972 boat.
>> 
>> What’s Ginkgo’s HIN?  Does she have a HIN plate on the transom?
>> 
>> Grenadine has tiller steering and boom-end sheeting to a traveler on the 
>> transom.  How is Gingko equipped?
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Randy Stafford
>> S/V Grenadine
>> C&C 30-1 #7
>> Ken Caryl, CO
>> ___
>> 
>> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
>> every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use 
>> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>> 
> 


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Re: Stus-List Sailtimer app and racing

[Randy Stafford via CnC-List]

Hi Dave,

Interesting discussion.

My experience with SailTimer has been mixed.  I bought their Wind Instrument a 
few years ago and it only lasted a couple seasons because the battery went 
flat.  So I bought their rechargeable battery version in January and they still 
haven’t delivered it.  I still like their concepts and price, but their product 
and service performance has been disappointing.

Now to your discussion.  I can appreciate their points that individual wind 
shifts are just parts of the overall average wind direction, and how do you 
know in a given shift whether it represents the “real” wind direction.  
Incidentally that average wind direction seems to be a major factor underlying 
their “optimal course” concept.  I hope they are constantly updating their 
notion of average wind direction as they measure the instantaneous true wind 
direction and shifts in it.

Having said that, I got my ass kicked in a race just yesterday because other 
sailors played the wind shifts better than I did.  Our wind at Chatfield was 
oscillating at least 30 degrees yesterday, and some boats guessed right while 
others didn’t.  So I vehemently disagree that headers and lifts are “another 
antiquated racing method.”  That’s a pretty cavalier statement.  And I think 
the shorter the distance from your current position to the next waypoint, the 
more important they become.  I could understand in an ocean race from say 
Newport to Bermuda you might want to give the shifts some time to average out.  
But on a lake the size of Chatfield where the windward mark might be only half 
a mile from the start line, every shift is important.

Cheers,
Randy Stafford
S/V Grenadine
C&C 30 MK I #7
Ken Caryl, CO

> On Oct 14, 2019, at 7:06 AM, David Knecht via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> I had an email debate last week with the folks who make the Sailtimer app and 
> wireless wind instruments.  They claim their app will determine optimal 
> tacking angles and adjust them in real time.  I was trying to understand what 
> the software did and how it was doing calculations and getting very confusing 
> (to me) answers.  As an example, I asked what the software would do if there 
> was a header.  My presumption was it would detect the shift and give you some 
> feedback or recommend tacking.  It should not be hard to figure out that you 
> are going slower toward the mark (VMG).  We agreed taht VMG was problematic 
> because it changes as you approach a mark, but their approach was equally 
> problematic.  Here is the response I got:
> 
> Headers and lifts are actually another antiquated racing method, that are 
> very clumsy in the age of GPS and computers.  They were great in the 1920s 
> when it was impossible to do trigonometry every second in a boat heeled over 
> and crashing through waves.  But they make you choose some arbitrary length 
> of time to get an average wind direction.  And they make an assumption that 
> the wind is going to go back to average later.  If a lift happens for 2 
> minutes, why call that a lift and not say that it is the real wind?  Too many 
> assumptions.  
> 
> They are not necessary;  why not just always sail on the optimal course to 
> get you to the waypoint fastest?  
> 
> If the wind changes while on the proposed course, the green line moves, and 
> you just keep on following it.  There is no such thing as lifts and headers 
> from some arbitrary time interval in which the wind direction is averaged.  
> Your goal should be simply to always follow the optimal tacks.  
> 
> That answer makes absolutely no sense to me.  Their optimal course is based 
> on polars as near as I can tell.  More importantly, they are arguing that 
> there is no advantage to tacking on a header.  Yes, there is a tactical 
> argument as to whether you would tack on every shift in a large keel boat 
> where tacks are slow relative to continuing straight, but in any significant 
> shift, my years of racing experience plus the math of the sailing angles 
> argues to me that Sailtimer's explanation is bogus.  Am I missing something?  
> Dave
> 
> S/V Aries
> 1990 C&C 34+
> New London, CT
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> 
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
> every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use 
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
> 

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every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
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Re: Stus-List Ginkgo/C&C 30-09/1971, Gloucester, Massachusetts

[Richard Klajnscek via CnC-List]

Hi Doug,

My 39 is the original aft cockpit model.

Rich

Rich Klajnscek, P.Eng.
Sea Fox Consulting, LLC
978-239-7321

> On Oct 13, 2019, at 11:21 PM, sv Rebecca Leah via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
>  Richard, which 39 did you acquire? I have a 39 landfall which is totally 
> different from the rear cockpit 39's. 
> 
> 
> 
> Doug Mountjoy 
> Sv Rebecca Leah 
> C&C LF39
> 253-208-1412
> Port Orchard YC wa.
> ___
> 
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
> every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use 
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
> 
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every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
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Stus-List Sailtimer app and racing

[David Knecht via CnC-List]

I had an email debate last week with the folks who make the Sailtimer app and 
wireless wind instruments.  They claim their app will determine optimal tacking 
angles and adjust them in real time.  I was trying to understand what the 
software did and how it was doing calculations and getting very confusing (to 
me) answers.  As an example, I asked what the software would do if there was a 
header.  My presumption was it would detect the shift and give you some 
feedback or recommend tacking.  It should not be hard to figure out that you 
are going slower toward the mark (VMG).  We agreed taht VMG was problematic 
because it changes as you approach a mark, but their approach was equally 
problematic.  Here is the response I got:

Headers and lifts are actually another antiquated racing method, that are very 
clumsy in the age of GPS and computers.  They were great in the 1920s when it 
was impossible to do trigonometry every second in a boat heeled over and 
crashing through waves.  But they make you choose some arbitrary length of time 
to get an average wind direction.  And they make an assumption that the wind is 
going to go back to average later.  If a lift happens for 2 minutes, why call 
that a lift and not say that it is the real wind?  Too many assumptions.  

They are not necessary;  why not just always sail on the optimal course to get 
you to the waypoint fastest?  

If the wind changes while on the proposed course, the green line moves, and you 
just keep on following it.  There is no such thing as lifts and headers from 
some arbitrary time interval in which the wind direction is averaged.  Your 
goal should be simply to always follow the optimal tacks.  

That answer makes absolutely no sense to me.  Their optimal course is based on 
polars as near as I can tell.  More importantly, they are arguing that there is 
no advantage to tacking on a header.  Yes, there is a tactical argument as to 
whether you would tack on every shift in a large keel boat where tacks are slow 
relative to continuing straight, but in any significant shift, my years of 
racing experience plus the math of the sailing angles argues to me that 
Sailtimer's explanation is bogus.  Am I missing something?  Dave

S/V Aries
1990 C&C 34+
New London, CT



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Stus-List (no subject)

[PAUL PARSONS via CnC-List]

Sent from my iPhone


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