Stus-List Re: 135% vs 155% headsail when racing

[Donald Kern via CnC-List]

Chuck is absolutely correct, different PHRF have different rating 
adjustments.  Do pull up the rating adjustments for the PHRF area you 
are in when making significant investments on a boat.


On Narragansett Bay we review our rules/rating adjustment yearly and 
changes are published and voted on by the members. PHRF-NB use tables 
for headsails, mains and spinnakers based on the sail area. We are 
trying to keep boats racing and believe that giving some relief to those 
who are moving from cruising to racing or can no longer afford a full 
sail inventor; ie, headsail 1>4, code 0, spinnaker .50 and .75 oz, etc.


As an example the headsail table adjust the rating by 1sec/nm for every 
3% of the sails LP% change with 155% being 0 sec adjustment, 170% -5sec, 
145% +3 sec, 135% +6 sec and 125% +9 sec. (samples from table).


Don Kern
/Fireball, /C Mk2
Bristol, RI



On 2/9/2021 8:44 PM, CHARLES SCHEAFFER via CnC-List wrote:

Each PHRF area is slightly different and it changes from year to year.
Chesapeake Bay PHRF gives 3 sec credit to smaller headsails up tp 139%.
Here is what is posted on their website:

1.
LP up to 109% - 6 sec/mi. credit.
2.
LP between 110% and 139% - 3 sec/mi. credit.
3.
LP between 140% and 155% - 0 sec/mi. (No Credit)

  Chuck S


Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: 135% vs 155% headsail when racing

[CHARLES SCHEAFFER via CnC-List]

Each PHRF area is slightly different and it changes from year to year.  
Chesapeake Bay PHRF gives 3 sec credit to smaller headsails up tp 139%. 

Here is what is posted on their website:
1. LP up to 109% - 6 sec/mi. credit.

2. LP between 110% and 139% - 3 sec/mi. credit.

3. LP between 140% and 155% - 0 sec/mi. (No Credit)

Chuck S



> On 02/09/2021 6:03 PM james taylor via CnC-List  
> wrote:
>  
>  
> Charlie,
> I would not go with the 140%! Either stay with the 155 or go to a 135%. 
> With a 140 you get no credit on your PHRF rating but a 135 will get you a 3 
> sec/mile bump. Difference between 135 and 140 will not be noticable. I am 
> surprised that a sailmaker made that recommendation to you. Getting several 
> quotes would probably be a good idea. I had my last headsail made by UK sails 
> (they had a loft in wilmington at the time, not sure they still do). I went 
> with a 125% and have been very happy with it.
> James Taylor
> Delaney
> C 38
> Oriental, NC
> 
> On Tue, Feb 9, 2021 at 4:42 PM Robert Abbott via CnC-List < 
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com > wrote:
> 
> > > Interesting discussion on sail selection.  And that is a broad 
> subject.
> > What kind of racing?
> > 
> > While I have retired from racing, I clearly remember racing with a 
> > sail
> > inventory4 head sails (150% light and heavy air...#1, 
> > 135%...#2, and
> > a 100%..#3), 2 spinnakers (systematical 3/4 oz. and a 1/2 oz.).   
> > Many
> > races we (I as the foredeck person) was changing head sails to suit
> > changes conditions.  We sometimes did a spinnaker peel (something we
> > practiced).  The main stayed full until we had to go down to the 
> > #3. 
> > Much of this racing was on a C 33 MKII and a C 34R.
> > 
> > Where I sail here in Halifax Harbour, Nova Scotia, Canada, there is 
> > no
> > one sail that works best for any given race day.  I am now a 
> > reacher,
> > not a racer, but I still know the difference in sail selection for 
> > the
> > conditions. I now sail much of the season with a furled 135%...it 
> > is my
> > go to sail...many days my 100% blade is the sail to have...one day 
> > last
> > year, a fellow lister here that we raced a lot together, was coming 
> > with
> > me for an afternoon sail and he said "it is going to be a light air 
> > day,
> > bring your 155% light air Kevlar today I did we dropped the 
> > 135% and
> > hoisted the 155% and it was the right sail for the day.  The next 
> > day,
> > no way could I hoist the 155%.
> > 
> > One head sail for racing is something I have no knowledge and/or
> > experience in and therefore have no relevant or helpful advice.
> > 
> > If you wish to race with only one head sail, and your prevailing 
> > wind is
> > around 10 knots true, my best guess would be a 135%.
> > 
> > Robert Abbott
> > AZURA
> > C 32 - #277
> > Halifax, N.S.
> > Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to 
> > help with the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list 
> > - use PayPal to send contribution --https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  
> > Thanks - Stu
> > 
> > > Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to 
> > help with the costs involved. If you want to show your support to the list 
> > - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray Thanks 
> > - Stu
> 
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

[Joel Delamirande via CnC-List]

Hey Debbie
Do u need crew members
I need experience and only have asa 101 for now

On Tue, Feb 9, 2021 at 10:48 AM Debbie Jeffcoatt via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> We race a 80's C 37 on Lake Ontario, club races with crew plus a double
> handed seriers and switched to a #2 (135%) several years ago, that was
> built to roll down to # 3 if needed.  Our PHRF was adjusted for the smaller
> head sail.  We still have the large # 1, but haven't used it since.
> Tacking time is a lot quicker and much easier when double handed.  Glayva
> won Boat of the Year in 2019 with our great crew and this sail.  Our
> motivation to purchase the # 2, came from a C 35 racer in Kingston area.
>
> Debbie
> Glayva II
> C 37
>
> On Tue, Feb 9, 2021 at 5:49 AM Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
>> Or keep your old patched 155 and use the 140 for the slightly breezier
>> days and forego the reef
>> --
>> *From:* Rod Stright via CnC-List 
>> *Sent:* February 9, 2021 5:30:15 AM
>> *To:* 'Stus-List'
>> *Cc:* Rod Stright
>> *Subject:* Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind
>>
>>
>> Would you get a PHRF adjustment credit by moving to a 135% Roller Furling
>> headsail?
>>
>>
>>
>> Rod Stright
>>
>> Halifax
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Charlie Nelson via CnC-List 
>> *Sent:* February-09-21 12:23 AM
>> *To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com
>> *Cc:* cenel...@aol.com
>> *Subject:* Stus-List New sails, new wind
>>
>>
>>
>> Hello all listers.
>>
>>
>>
>> I have a hypothetical for the racers among you.
>>
>>
>>
>> I need to replace my 3DL headsail--its mostly patches after ~ 5 years of
>> club racing locally. This is about my 3rd laminate style headsail---and my
>> last!
>>
>>
>>
>> I am probably going with the North 3D Nordac which has replaced the
>> former 3DL technology with what they call a composite sail--not laminated
>> but still built over a 3D mold of the sail shape desired--if I understand
>> this correctly. I do not need the super light and costly Raw or Endurance.
>>
>>
>>
>> Anyhow, I plan to move to a new sailing area off Southport, NC near Bald
>> Head Island at the mouth of the Cape Fear River--basically on the NC coast.
>>
>>
>>
>> All my club racing to date has been in the Pamlico and Neuse Rivers,
>> occasionally racing to Ocracoke across the Pamlico Sound. For these areas,
>> a 155% headsail is the largest you can race with locally without penalty
>> and so that is what I have always used.
>>
>>
>>
>> The North sail maker suggested because of the higher coastal winds that I
>> may not need a 155% since the wind strength is higher at the coast. OTOH, a
>> racer there uses a 155% headsail and says he does well with it.
>>
>>
>>
>> I checked the historical average wind speed for Southport and New Bern
>> and the coastal winds are from 20-25% higher than at New Bern.
>>
>> For instance, the avg. wind speed varies from 5.5-8.1 knots in New Bern
>> vs. about 7-10 knots in Southport, or about 25% higher on average.
>>
>>
>>
>> Further, I know from experience that my masthead rig becomes seriously
>> overpowered once the wind gets greater than about 12 knots true, when its
>> time to reef the main(I only have 1 reef point) and if it goes above ~ 15
>> knots, I need to roll the headsail a few turns (or change down to a 135% or
>> 90% headsail).
>>
>>
>>
>> I am not inclined to go less than the 155% allowed locally (PHRF) but
>> maybe I should--the local North guy suggested ~ 140%. This might better
>> match the local wind and is less expensive since less material is used.
>> OTOH, I don't want to be under canvassed on the light air days.
>>
>>
>>
>> Further, there is the question of sail material weight to consider.
>>
>>
>>
>> I plan for this to be my last headsail purchase and may use it some for
>> local cruising in addition to club racing. BTW, it will be used on a furler
>> either way.
>>
>>
>>
>> So what would the listers do!!
>>
>>
>>
>> Charlie Nelson
>>
>> 1995 C 36 XL/kcb
>>
>> Water Phantom
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help
>> with the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list -
>> use PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>> Thanks - Stu
>
>
>
> --
> Debbie Jeffcoatt
> cell 416-251-2650
> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with
> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks
> - Stu

-- 
Joel Delamirande
*www.jdroofing.ca *
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

[John McCrea via CnC-List]

This discussion reinforces my racing program, a J-24 to race and my C 36
to cruise. Sails on the 24 are so much cheaper, and the used market from the
top racers supports the rest of us. I bought a set of North Racing sails
used two days at the 2019 nationals last summer. Purchase price 3k for a
spin, main and black Twaron/Technora class 150.. 

I race with four people tops, two that I bred and are still on the college
payroll and one friend. Less people=less beer and food to buy! We have just
as much fun and have the biggest class of 8-10 boats out of 50 or so on Wed
nights. We used to have a 1989 C 37XL and raced that with 8 to ten, very
expensive. All this being said the 36 has two Doyle jibs, a 150 and a 135. I
love the 135! 

John McCrea

Cluster Duck, J 24
Talisman, 36-1

Mystic, CT

-Original Message-
From: David Risch via CnC-List  
Sent: Tuesday, February 9, 2021 5:51 PM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: David Risch 
Subject: Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

Bottom line with sails these days is crew.  How many and how often. Getting
harder and harder (So I hear) to find consistent good crew.   When I raced
with 4 headsails, 3 spinnakers etc. I had 8 on board my 40-2.   Son moved on
in life and the adult day camp program ceased.   When I do race now its
short-handed or solo.   Even a tacking a 135% roller is "fun" in our
Buzzards Bay smokin' SWers when alone or with one.  Now that we can get a
rating bump for a 125% will reduce the headsail to the 125%. And I muuch
prefer the minimal logistics and the solitude/focused conversation with the
less is more crew configuration.

-Original Message-
From: Robert Abbott via CnC-List  
Sent: Tuesday, February 9, 2021 4:42 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Robert Abbott 
Subject: Stus-List New sails, new wind

Interesting discussion on sail selection.  And that is a broad subject. What
kind of racing?

While I have retired from racing, I clearly remember racing with a sail
inventory4 head sails (150% light and heavy air...#1, 135%...#2, and a
100%..#3), 2 spinnakers (systematical 3/4 oz. and a 1/2 oz.).   Many races
we (I as the foredeck person) was changing head sails to suit changes
conditions.  We sometimes did a spinnaker peel (something we practiced). 
The main stayed full until we had to go down to the #3. Much of this racing
was on a C 33 MKII and a C 34R.

Where I sail here in Halifax Harbour, Nova Scotia, Canada, there is no one
sail that works best for any given race day.  I am now a reacher, not a
racer, but I still know the difference in sail selection for the conditions.
I now sail much of the season with a furled 135%...it is my go to
sail...many days my 100% blade is the sail to have...one day last year, a
fellow lister here that we raced a lot together, was coming with me for an
afternoon sail and he said "it is going to be a light air day, bring your
155% light air Kevlar today I did we dropped the 135% and hoisted the
155% and it was the right sail for the day.  The next day, no way could I
hoist the 155%.

One head sail for racing is something I have no knowledge and/or experience
in and therefore have no relevant or helpful advice.

If you wish to race with only one head sail, and your prevailing wind is
around 10 knots true, my best guess would be a 135%.

Robert Abbott
AZURA
C 32 - #277
Halifax, N.S.
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with
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000sdata=rxnSNsd1bq23mCioj%2BXYMJcUKRG2qDTHl4t%2FxffYhAQ%3Dreserve
d=0  Thanks - Stu
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with
the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use
PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks -
Stu
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

[james taylor via CnC-List]

Charlie,
I would not go with the 140%! Either stay with the 155 or go to a 135%.
With a 140 you get no credit on your PHRF rating but a 135 will get you a 3
sec/mile bump. Difference between 135 and 140 will not be noticable. I am
surprised that a sailmaker made that recommendation to you. Getting several
quotes would probably be a good idea. I had my last headsail made by UK
sails (they had a loft in wilmington at the time, not sure they still do).
I went with a 125% and have been very happy with it.
James Taylor
Delaney
C 38
Oriental, NC

On Tue, Feb 9, 2021 at 4:42 PM Robert Abbott via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Interesting discussion on sail selection.  And that is a broad subject.
> What kind of racing?
>
> While I have retired from racing, I clearly remember racing with a sail
> inventory4 head sails (150% light and heavy air...#1, 135%...#2, and
> a 100%..#3), 2 spinnakers (systematical 3/4 oz. and a 1/2 oz.).   Many
> races we (I as the foredeck person) was changing head sails to suit
> changes conditions.  We sometimes did a spinnaker peel (something we
> practiced).  The main stayed full until we had to go down to the #3.
> Much of this racing was on a C 33 MKII and a C 34R.
>
> Where I sail here in Halifax Harbour, Nova Scotia, Canada, there is no
> one sail that works best for any given race day.  I am now a reacher,
> not a racer, but I still know the difference in sail selection for the
> conditions. I now sail much of the season with a furled 135%...it is my
> go to sail...many days my 100% blade is the sail to have...one day last
> year, a fellow lister here that we raced a lot together, was coming with
> me for an afternoon sail and he said "it is going to be a light air day,
> bring your 155% light air Kevlar today I did we dropped the 135% and
> hoisted the 155% and it was the right sail for the day.  The next day,
> no way could I hoist the 155%.
>
> One head sail for racing is something I have no knowledge and/or
> experience in and therefore have no relevant or helpful advice.
>
> If you wish to race with only one head sail, and your prevailing wind is
> around 10 knots true, my best guess would be a 135%.
>
> Robert Abbott
> AZURA
> C 32 - #277
> Halifax, N.S.
> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with
> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks
> - Stu
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

[David Risch via CnC-List]

Bottom line with sails these days is crew.  How many and how often. Getting 
harder and harder (So I hear) to find consistent good crew.   When I raced with 
4 headsails, 3 spinnakers etc. I had 8 on board my 40-2.   Son moved on in life 
and the adult day camp program ceased.   When I do race now its short-handed or 
solo.   Even a tacking a 135% roller is "fun" in our Buzzards Bay smokin' SWers 
when alone or with one.  Now that we can get a rating bump for a 125% will 
reduce the headsail to the 125%. And I muuch prefer the minimal logistics and 
the solitude/focused conversation with the less is more crew configuration.

-Original Message-
From: Robert Abbott via CnC-List  
Sent: Tuesday, February 9, 2021 4:42 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Robert Abbott 
Subject: Stus-List New sails, new wind

Interesting discussion on sail selection.  And that is a broad subject. What 
kind of racing?

While I have retired from racing, I clearly remember racing with a sail
inventory4 head sails (150% light and heavy air...#1, 135%...#2, and a 
100%..#3), 2 spinnakers (systematical 3/4 oz. and a 1/2 oz.).   Many races we 
(I as the foredeck person) was changing head sails to suit changes conditions.  
We sometimes did a spinnaker peel (something we practiced).  The main stayed 
full until we had to go down to the #3. Much of this racing was on a C 33 
MKII and a C 34R.

Where I sail here in Halifax Harbour, Nova Scotia, Canada, there is no one sail 
that works best for any given race day.  I am now a reacher, not a racer, but I 
still know the difference in sail selection for the conditions. I now sail much 
of the season with a furled 135%...it is my go to sail...many days my 100% 
blade is the sail to have...one day last year, a fellow lister here that we 
raced a lot together, was coming with me for an afternoon sail and he said "it 
is going to be a light air day, bring your 155% light air Kevlar today I 
did we dropped the 135% and hoisted the 155% and it was the right sail for the 
day.  The next day, no way could I hoist the 155%.

One head sail for racing is something I have no knowledge and/or experience in 
and therefore have no relevant or helpful advice.

If you wish to race with only one head sail, and your prevailing wind is around 
10 knots true, my best guess would be a 135%.

Robert Abbott
AZURA
C 32 - #277
Halifax, N.S.
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.paypal.me%2Fstumurraydata=04%7C01%7C%7Cadc793e63f114b78569608d8cd438339%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637485037132009482%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000sdata=rxnSNsd1bq23mCioj%2BXYMJcUKRG2qDTHl4t%2FxffYhAQ%3Dreserved=0
  Thanks - Stu
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List New sails, new wind

[Robert Abbott via CnC-List]

Interesting discussion on sail selection.  And that is a broad subject.  
What kind of racing?


While I have retired from racing, I clearly remember racing with a sail 
inventory4 head sails (150% light and heavy air...#1, 135%...#2, and 
a 100%..#3), 2 spinnakers (systematical 3/4 oz. and a 1/2 oz.).   Many 
races we (I as the foredeck person) was changing head sails to suit 
changes conditions.  We sometimes did a spinnaker peel (something we 
practiced).  The main stayed full until we had to go down to the #3.  
Much of this racing was on a C 33 MKII and a C 34R.


Where I sail here in Halifax Harbour, Nova Scotia, Canada, there is no 
one sail that works best for any given race day.  I am now a reacher, 
not a racer, but I still know the difference in sail selection for the 
conditions. I now sail much of the season with a furled 135%...it is my 
go to sail...many days my 100% blade is the sail to have...one day last 
year, a fellow lister here that we raced a lot together, was coming with 
me for an afternoon sail and he said "it is going to be a light air day, 
bring your 155% light air Kevlar today I did we dropped the 135% and 
hoisted the 155% and it was the right sail for the day.  The next day, 
no way could I hoist the 155%.


One head sail for racing is something I have no knowledge and/or 
experience in and therefore have no relevant or helpful advice.


If you wish to race with only one head sail, and your prevailing wind is 
around 10 knots true, my best guess would be a 135%.


Robert Abbott
AZURA
C 32 - #277
Halifax, N.S.
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

[Bob Mann via CnC-List]

Interesting discussion!

On Lake St Clair our 35 mk I OD fleet sailed with 167 as #1.  This year we're 
going to 155 as largest headsail but I can still use 167 on Wednesday races , 
(rating is 132).  We see winds from 0 to 20 true but mostly race in 8-12

Bob Mann
s/v Mystic

> On 02/09/2021 3:20 PM Joel Aronson via CnC-List  
> wrote:
>  
>  
> Charlie,
>  
> At some point you get a credit for a smaller headsail  I would check with 
> my local PHRF and go that way.  A 129 or 134 is a whole lot easier to manage 
> in 10 knots and you will be able to carry full sail just a little longer.  Or 
> keep the 155 just for racing and get a 130 for cruising.  My 2 cents.
>  
> Joel
> 
> On Tue, Feb 9, 2021 at 3:09 PM Bill Coleman via CnC-List < 
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com > wrote:
> 
> > > 
> > You know Charlie,
> > 
> > I am guessing you probably have a Blade, or #3, or something around 
> > 110 – Why don’t you just do a season with that, and weigh all the pros and 
> > cons?
> > 
> > On one hand, I used to have the 135-140, and never felt the need 
> > for anything bigger.  When the wind piped up, 18 – 20 out in the lake, we 
> > would just drop the main, and do great.  I never rolled it up, I just feel 
> > it make for a terrible shape, and also it ruins the sail. For an afternoon 
> > cruise, It was simple to go out  and not even touch the main.
> > 
> > On the other hand, I have been sailing with a 100% the last few 
> > years, and my crew is just blown away at how easy their job has become. It 
> > you are quick with the sheets on a tack, you almost don’t even need to 
> > crank! I think in a race where you are tacking a bit, this can make up for 
> > all the time we would spend cranking the last 5 feet, trying to get back up 
> > to speed, that was brutal!  Plus, that also weighed on my mind when I knew 
> > I needed to tack, but hung on B/C I knew how much we would lose in the 
> > tack. Also, if the crew was still huffing and puffing.   As far as 
> > cruising, I used to think I couldn’t sail with just a blade, but found out 
> > last year it doesn’t do that bad in a breeze. Can’t go 45° go with just a 
> > blade, but it will do 50, if there is a little breeze and you are feeling 
> > lazy.  One place you may lose a bit is going downwind wing and wing with a 
> > pole.
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > I just think trying it for awhile might open your eyes to things 
> > you hadn’t thought of. Plus, you will have another year to save up for the 
> > new sail !
> > 
> >  
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Bill Coleman
> > 
> > Entrada, Erie, PA
> > 
> >  
> > 
> >  
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > From: Charlie Nelson via CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
> > mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com ]
> > Sent: Monday, February 08, 2021 11:23 PM
> > To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> > Cc: cenel...@aol.com mailto:cenel...@aol.com
> > Subject: Stus-List New sails, new wind
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Hello all listers. 
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > I have a hypothetical for the racers among you. 
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > I need to replace my 3DL headsail--its mostly patches after ~ 5 
> > years of club racing locally. This is about my 3rd laminate style 
> > headsail---and my last!
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > I am probably going with the North 3D Nordac which has replaced the 
> > former 3DL technology with what they call a composite sail--not laminated 
> > but still built over a 3D mold of the sail shape desired--if I understand 
> > this correctly. I do not need the super light and costly Raw or Endurance.
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Anyhow, I plan to move to a new sailing area off Southport, NC near 
> > Bald Head Island at the mouth of the Cape Fear River--basically on the NC 
> > coast.
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > All my club racing to date has been in the Pamlico and Neuse 
> > Rivers, occasionally racing to Ocracoke across the Pamlico Sound. For these 
> > areas, a 155% headsail is the largest you can race with locally without 
> > penalty and so that is what I have always used. 
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > The North sail maker suggested because of the higher coastal winds 
> > that I may not need a 155% since the wind strength is higher at the coast. 
> > OTOH, a racer there uses a 155% headsail and says he does well with it. 
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > I checked the historical average wind speed for Southport and New 
> > Bern and the coastal winds are from 20-25% higher than at New Bern. 
> > 
> > For instance, the avg. wind speed varies from 5.5-8.1 knots in New 
> > Bern vs. about 7-10 knots in Southport, or about 25% higher on average.
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Further, I know from experience that my masthead rig becomes 

Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

[CHARLES SCHEAFFER via CnC-List]

Hi Charlie,
Our boats power upwind easily.  If you want one headsail to race, a 135% is 
probably the best allround size.

I've had success racing with my 135%.  It powers upwind and we normally pass 
several boats before getting to the windward mark.  The 110% is too small 
unless you have really strong winds.  I don't carry the sail and just roll my 
140% which flattens as it rolls.  Summer races have always been light and 
flukey and I would like a lighter 135%.  Mine was built for higher winds than I 
use it for.

For racing, I'd like to have a lighter 135% and a super light 155%, but I solo 
99% of the time, so tacking all that around by myself would be a chore and I 
don't have the rail meat to flatten the boat when powered up.  If I buy a new 
headsail, it will probably a lighter 135%.

Chuck Scheaffer Resolute 1989 C 34R Pasadena Md





> On 02/09/2021 3:09 PM Bill Coleman via CnC-List  
> wrote:
>  
>  
> 
> You know Charlie,
> 
> I am guessing you probably have a Blade, or #3, or something around 110 – 
> Why don’t you just do a season with that, and weigh all the pros and cons?
> 
> On one hand, I used to have the 135-140, and never felt the need for 
> anything bigger.  When the wind piped up, 18 – 20 out in the lake, we would 
> just drop the main, and do great.  I never rolled it up, I just feel it make 
> for a terrible shape, and also it ruins the sail. For an afternoon cruise, It 
> was simple to go out  and not even touch the main.
> 
> On the other hand, I have been sailing with a 100% the last few years, 
> and my crew is just blown away at how easy their job has become. It you are 
> quick with the sheets on a tack, you almost don’t even need to crank! I think 
> in a race where you are tacking a bit, this can make up for all the time we 
> would spend cranking the last 5 feet, trying to get back up to speed, that 
> was brutal!  Plus, that also weighed on my mind when I knew I needed to tack, 
> but hung on B/C I knew how much we would lose in the tack. Also, if the crew 
> was still huffing and puffing.   As far as cruising, I used to think I 
> couldn’t sail with just a blade, but found out last year it doesn’t do that 
> bad in a breeze. Can’t go 45° go with just a blade, but it will do 50, if 
> there is a little breeze and you are feeling lazy.  One place you may lose a 
> bit is going downwind wing and wing with a pole.
> 
>  
> 
> I just think trying it for awhile might open your eyes to things you 
> hadn’t thought of. Plus, you will have another year to save up for the new 
> sail !
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> Bill Coleman
> 
> Entrada, Erie, PA
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> From: Charlie Nelson via CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com]
> Sent: Monday, February 08, 2021 11:23 PM
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Cc: cenel...@aol.com
> Subject: Stus-List New sails, new wind
> 
>  
> 
> Hello all listers. 
> 
>  
> 
> I have a hypothetical for the racers among you. 
> 
>  
> 
> I need to replace my 3DL headsail--its mostly patches after ~ 5 years of 
> club racing locally. This is about my 3rd laminate style headsail---and my 
> last!
> 
>  
> 
> I am probably going with the North 3D Nordac which has replaced the 
> former 3DL technology with what they call a composite sail--not laminated but 
> still built over a 3D mold of the sail shape desired--if I understand this 
> correctly. I do not need the super light and costly Raw or Endurance.
> 
>  
> 
> Anyhow, I plan to move to a new sailing area off Southport, NC near Bald 
> Head Island at the mouth of the Cape Fear River--basically on the NC coast.
> 
>  
> 
> All my club racing to date has been in the Pamlico and Neuse Rivers, 
> occasionally racing to Ocracoke across the Pamlico Sound. For these areas, a 
> 155% headsail is the largest you can race with locally without penalty and so 
> that is what I have always used. 
> 
>  
> 
> The North sail maker suggested because of the higher coastal winds that I 
> may not need a 155% since the wind strength is higher at the coast. OTOH, a 
> racer there uses a 155% headsail and says he does well with it. 
> 
>  
> 
> I checked the historical average wind speed for Southport and New Bern 
> and the coastal winds are from 20-25% higher than at New Bern. 
> 
> For instance, the avg. wind speed varies from 5.5-8.1 knots in New Bern 
> vs. about 7-10 knots in Southport, or about 25% higher on average.
> 
>  
> 
> Further, I know from experience that my masthead rig becomes seriously 
> overpowered once the wind gets greater than about 12 knots true, when its 
> time to reef the main(I only have 1 reef point) and if it goes above ~ 15 
> knots, I need to roll the headsail a few turns (or change down to a 135% or 
> 90% headsail).
> 
>  
> 
> I am not inclined to go less than the 155% allowed locally (PHRF) but 
> maybe I should--the 

Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

[Joel Aronson via CnC-List]

Charlie,

At some point you get a credit for a smaller headsail  I would check with
my local PHRF and go that way.  A 129 or 134 is a whole lot easier to
manage in 10 knots and you will be able to carry full sail just a little
longer.  Or keep the 155 just for racing and get a 130 for cruising.  My 2
cents.

Joel

On Tue, Feb 9, 2021 at 3:09 PM Bill Coleman via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> You know Charlie,
>
> I am guessing you probably have a Blade, or #3, or something around 110 –
> Why don’t you just do a season with that, and weigh all the pros and cons?
>
> On one hand, I used to have the 135-140, and never felt the need for
> anything bigger.  When the wind piped up, 18 – 20 out in the lake, we would
> just drop the main, and do great.  I never rolled it up, I just feel it
> make for a terrible shape, and also it ruins the sail. For an afternoon
> cruise, It was simple to go out  and not even touch the main.
>
> On the other hand, I have been sailing with a 100% the last few years, and
> my crew is just blown away at how easy their job has become. It you are
> quick with the sheets on a tack, you almost don’t even need to crank! I
> think in a race where you are tacking a bit, this can make up for all the
> time we would spend cranking the last 5 feet, trying to get back up to
> speed, that was brutal!  Plus, that also weighed on my mind when I knew I
> needed to tack, but hung on B/C I knew how much we would lose in the tack.
> Also, if the crew was still huffing and puffing.   As far as cruising, I
> used to think I couldn’t sail with just a blade, but found out last year it
> doesn’t do that bad in a breeze. Can’t go 45° go with just a blade, but
> it will do 50, if there is a little breeze and you are feeling lazy.  One
> place you may lose a bit is going downwind wing and wing with a pole.
>
>
>
> I just think trying it for awhile might open your eyes to things you
> hadn’t thought of. Plus, you will have another year to save up for the new
> sail !
>
>
>
>
>
> Bill Coleman
>
> Entrada, Erie, PA
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Charlie Nelson via CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com]
> *Sent:* Monday, February 08, 2021 11:23 PM
> *To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> *Cc:* cenel...@aol.com
> *Subject:* Stus-List New sails, new wind
>
>
>
> Hello all listers.
>
>
>
> I have a hypothetical for the racers among you.
>
>
>
> I need to replace my 3DL headsail--its mostly patches after ~ 5 years of
> club racing locally. This is about my 3rd laminate style headsail---and my
> last!
>
>
>
> I am probably going with the North 3D Nordac which has replaced the former
> 3DL technology with what they call a composite sail--not laminated but
> still built over a 3D mold of the sail shape desired--if I understand this
> correctly. I do not need the super light and costly Raw or Endurance.
>
>
>
> Anyhow, I plan to move to a new sailing area off Southport, NC near Bald
> Head Island at the mouth of the Cape Fear River--basically on the NC coast.
>
>
>
> All my club racing to date has been in the Pamlico and Neuse Rivers,
> occasionally racing to Ocracoke across the Pamlico Sound. For these areas,
> a 155% headsail is the largest you can race with locally without penalty
> and so that is what I have always used.
>
>
>
> The North sail maker suggested because of the higher coastal winds that I
> may not need a 155% since the wind strength is higher at the coast. OTOH, a
> racer there uses a 155% headsail and says he does well with it.
>
>
>
> I checked the historical average wind speed for Southport and New Bern and
> the coastal winds are from 20-25% higher than at New Bern.
>
> For instance, the avg. wind speed varies from 5.5-8.1 knots in New Bern
> vs. about 7-10 knots in Southport, or about 25% higher on average.
>
>
>
> Further, I know from experience that my masthead rig becomes seriously
> overpowered once the wind gets greater than about 12 knots true, when its
> time to reef the main(I only have 1 reef point) and if it goes above ~ 15
> knots, I need to roll the headsail a few turns (or change down to a 135% or
> 90% headsail).
>
>
>
> I am not inclined to go less than the 155% allowed locally (PHRF) but
> maybe I should--the local North guy suggested ~ 140%. This might better
> match the local wind and is less expensive since less material is used.
> OTOH, I don't want to be under canvassed on the light air days.
>
>
>
> Further, there is the question of sail material weight to consider.
>
>
>
> I plan for this to be my last headsail purchase and may use it some for
> local cruising in addition to club racing. BTW, it will be used on a furler
> either way.
>
>
>
> So what would the listers do!!
>
>
>
> Charlie Nelson
>
> 1995 C 36 XL/kcb
>
> Water Phantom
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with
> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks
> - 

Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

[Bill Coleman via CnC-List]

You know Charlie, 

I am guessing you probably have a Blade, or #3, or something around 110 – Why 
don’t you just do a season with that, and weigh all the pros and cons?

On one hand, I used to have the 135-140, and never felt the need for anything 
bigger.  When the wind piped up, 18 – 20 out in the lake, we would just drop 
the main, and do great.  I never rolled it up, I just feel it make for a 
terrible shape, and also it ruins the sail. For an afternoon cruise, It was 
simple to go out  and not even touch the main.

On the other hand, I have been sailing with a 100% the last few years, and my 
crew is just blown away at how easy their job has become. It you are quick with 
the sheets on a tack, you almost don’t even need to crank! I think in a race 
where you are tacking a bit, this can make up for all the time we would spend 
cranking the last 5 feet, trying to get back up to speed, that was brutal!  
Plus, that also weighed on my mind when I knew I needed to tack, but hung on 
B/C I knew how much we would lose in the tack. Also, if the crew was still 
huffing and puffing.   As far as cruising, I used to think I couldn’t sail with 
just a blade, but found out last year it doesn’t do that bad in a breeze. Can’t 
go 45° go with just a blade, but it will do 50, if there is a little breeze and 
you are feeling lazy.  One place you may lose a bit is going downwind wing and 
wing with a pole. 

 

I just think trying it for awhile might open your eyes to things you hadn’t 
thought of. Plus, you will have another year to save up for the new sail !

 

 

Bill Coleman

Entrada, Erie, PA

 

 

 

From: Charlie Nelson via CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com] 
Sent: Monday, February 08, 2021 11:23 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: cenel...@aol.com
Subject: Stus-List New sails, new wind

 

Hello all listers.  

 

I have a hypothetical for the racers among you. 

 

I need to replace my 3DL headsail--its mostly patches after ~ 5 years of club 
racing locally. This is about my 3rd laminate style headsail---and my last!

 

I am probably going with the North 3D Nordac which has replaced the former 3DL 
technology with what they call a composite sail--not laminated but still built 
over a 3D mold of the sail shape desired--if I understand this correctly. I do 
not need the super light and costly Raw or Endurance.

 

Anyhow, I plan to move to a new sailing area off Southport, NC near Bald Head 
Island at the mouth of the Cape Fear River--basically on the NC coast.

 

All my club racing to date has been in the Pamlico and Neuse Rivers, 
occasionally racing to Ocracoke across the Pamlico Sound. For these areas, a 
155% headsail is the largest you can race with locally without penalty and so 
that is what I have always used. 

 

The North sail maker suggested because of the higher coastal winds that I may 
not need a 155% since the wind strength is higher at the coast. OTOH, a racer 
there uses a 155% headsail and says he does well with it. 

 

I checked the historical average wind speed for Southport and New Bern and the 
coastal winds are from 20-25% higher than at New Bern. 

For instance, the avg. wind speed varies from 5.5-8.1 knots in New Bern vs. 
about 7-10 knots in Southport, or about 25% higher on average.

 

Further, I know from experience that my masthead rig becomes seriously 
overpowered once the wind gets greater than about 12 knots true, when its time 
to reef the main(I only have 1 reef point) and if it goes above ~ 15 knots, I 
need to roll the headsail a few turns (or change down to a 135% or 90% 
headsail).

 

I am not inclined to go less than the 155% allowed locally (PHRF) but maybe I 
should--the local North guy suggested ~ 140%. This might better match the local 
wind and is less expensive since less material is used. OTOH, I don't want to 
be under canvassed on the light air days. 

 

Further, there is the question of sail material weight to consider. 

 

I plan for this to be my last headsail purchase and may use it some for local 
cruising in addition to club racing. BTW, it will be used on a furler either 
way.

 

So what would the listers do!!

 

Charlie Nelson

1995 C 36 XL/kcb

Water Phantom

 

 

 

 

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List List

[onno boswinkel via CnC-List]

Stu,I've been away from the list for many months but noticed that I've not 
received any e-mails since September.How can i get back on the active 
list?Thanks,OnnoThanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

[Matt Janssen via CnC-List]

>From a racing perspective I would consider the rating but also the sheeting
angle.

If you plan to race spinnaker and the 135% is for upwind only; there is a
case to be made about taking advantage of the 3-second credit as others
have noted. However, on most days in a JAM fleet, I would want the 155%
downwind.

On my boat (Eduam), my racing headsails include a 155, 135 and a 95. This
past season, I had to press my cruising 140% Dacron into service as a No 1
when the 155% laminate was pulled through a stanchion one too many times.
The biggest problem with this was the inability to find a decent sheeting
angle for the 140%.

Eduam has both deck mounted track (for No. 2) and a cockpit coaming track
for the No 1 (155%). The deck track is lower and outboard of the cockpit
track. When the 140% was sheeted to the deck, I couldn’t point with the
fleet (too far outboard). However, if I moved it to the cockpit track (in
and up), the track was higher and I would lose the top of the sail. In
short, I was never happy using the tracks for the 140% when racing.  If you
decide to go with a 140%, I would make sure your sailmaker measures your
tracks/cars and you discuss sheeting/pointing as part of the design. I
probably lose 3 or 4-degrees going to the 140 from my 155%.

It is conceivable, my poor sheeting angles are self-inflicted issues due to
my own inexperience when ordering the sail. I was 26 at the time and it was
the first sail I had ever purchased for any boat. I went with a national
brand who had made multiple sets of laminate sails for the previous owner
(much accomplished than I) and deferred to them on the design. But the 140%
seems to be in no-man’s land on my boat in racing trim. Perhaps I should
have asked a few more questions. Live and learn.

As far as cruising with the sail, since most of my cruising is shorthanded,
I was initially leaning towards a 130/135% but was talked into going with a
140%. For most of my cruising in Long Island Sound/Raritan Bay/Hudson
River, I am really glad to have the extra sail area.

A light air sail with the better half and dogs? Roll out the full 140%,
leave the main packed and still enjoy sailing. Breeze pipes up on a
delivery? Roller reefed, the sail comes in at about equivalent to a 100% -
sail balance and pointing suffer a bit - but great for flexibility. Tuck in
a reef or two in the main, and the boat is reasonably under control in any
of the conditions I would consider sailing in.

When cruising, if you prefer to sail in lighter air rather than motor, I
wouldn’t hesitate to go larger than the 135%; especially if you have
confidence in your furler and main reefing systems.  That being said, I am
opposed to using the engine in anything but the most still days – not for
any moral high ground - but because the single cylinder Yanmar is noisy,
scares my dogs, melts the ice and warms the beer. Obviously, your needs may
vary.



Cheers,

matt


*Eduam* - C 27 MkV (564)

RYC New Jersey



> *From:* Charlie Nelson via CnC-List 
> *Sent:* February-09-21 12:23 AM
> *To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> *Cc:* cenel...@aol.com
> *Subject:* Stus-List New sails, new wind
>
>
>
> Hello all listers.
>
>
>
> I have a hypothetical for the racers among you.
>
>
>
> I need to replace my 3DL headsail--its mostly patches after ~ 5 years of
> club racing locally. This is about my 3rd laminate style headsail---and my
> last!
>
>
>
> I am probably going with the North 3D Nordac which has replaced the former
> 3DL technology with what they call a composite sail--not laminated but
> still built over a 3D mold of the sail shape desired--if I understand this
> correctly. I do not need the super light and costly Raw or Endurance.
>
>
>
> Anyhow, I plan to move to a new sailing area off Southport, NC near Bald
> Head Island at the mouth of the Cape Fear River--basically on the NC coast.
>
>
>
> All my club racing to date has been in the Pamlico and Neuse Rivers,
> occasionally racing to Ocracoke across the Pamlico Sound. For these areas,
> a 155% headsail is the largest you can race with locally without penalty
> and so that is what I have always used.
>
>
>
> The North sail maker suggested because of the higher coastal winds that I
> may not need a 155% since the wind strength is higher at the coast. OTOH, a
> racer there uses a 155% headsail and says he does well with it.
>
>
>
> I checked the historical average wind speed for Southport and New Bern and
> the coastal winds are from 20-25% higher than at New Bern.
>
> For instance, the avg. wind speed varies from 5.5-8.1 knots in New Bern
> vs. about 7-10 knots in Southport, or about 25% higher on average.
>
>
>
> Further, I know from experience that my masthead rig becomes seriously
> overpowered once the wind gets greater than about 12 knots true, when its
> time to reef the main(I only have 1 reef point) and if it goes above ~ 15
> knots, I need to roll the headsail a few turns (or change down to a 135% or
> 90% headsail).
>
>
>
> I am not inclined to 

Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

[John Conklin via CnC-List]

Have a 130 on my 37 and this sail also   drives the boat so nicely losing maybe 
a knot of boat speed in  up to 18 knots under only this sail.  With main and 
over 18 she gets furled a bit. This years lots od days over 20 and would have 
loved a 110 its so hard choice.

John Conklin
S/V Halcyon

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Debbie Jeffcoatt via CnC-List
Sent: Tuesday, February 9, 2021 10:48 AM
To: Stus-List
Cc: Debbie Jeffcoatt
Subject: Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

We race a 80's C 37 on Lake Ontario, club races with crew plus a double 
handed seriers and switched to a #2 (135%) several years ago, that was built to 
roll down to # 3 if needed.  Our PHRF was adjusted for the smaller head sail.  
We still have the large # 1, but haven't used it since.  Tacking time is a lot 
quicker and much easier when double handed.  Glayva won Boat of the Year in 
2019 with our great crew and this sail.  Our motivation to purchase the # 2, 
came from a C 35 racer in Kingston area.

Debbie
Glayva II
C 37

On Tue, Feb 9, 2021 at 5:49 AM Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
Or keep your old patched 155 and use the 140 for the slightly breezier days and 
forego the reef

From: Rod Stright via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Sent: February 9, 2021 5:30:15 AM
To: 'Stus-List'
Cc: Rod Stright
Subject: Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

Would you get a PHRF adjustment credit by moving to a 135% Roller Furling 
headsail?

Rod Stright
Halifax

From: Charlie Nelson via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Sent: February-09-21 12:23 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: cenel...@aol.com
Subject: Stus-List New sails, new wind

Hello all listers.

I have a hypothetical for the racers among you.

I need to replace my 3DL headsail--its mostly patches after ~ 5 years of club 
racing locally. This is about my 3rd laminate style headsail---and my last!

I am probably going with the North 3D Nordac which has replaced the former 3DL 
technology with what they call a composite sail--not laminated but still built 
over a 3D mold of the sail shape desired--if I understand this correctly. I do 
not need the super light and costly Raw or Endurance.

Anyhow, I plan to move to a new sailing area off Southport, NC near Bald Head 
Island at the mouth of the Cape Fear River--basically on the NC coast.

All my club racing to date has been in the Pamlico and Neuse Rivers, 
occasionally racing to Ocracoke across the Pamlico Sound. For these areas, a 
155% headsail is the largest you can race with locally without penalty and so 
that is what I have always used.

The North sail maker suggested because of the higher coastal winds that I may 
not need a 155% since the wind strength is higher at the coast. OTOH, a racer 
there uses a 155% headsail and says he does well with it.

I checked the historical average wind speed for Southport and New Bern and the 
coastal winds are from 20-25% higher than at New Bern.
For instance, the avg. wind speed varies from 5.5-8.1 knots in New Bern vs. 
about 7-10 knots in Southport, or about 25% higher on average.

Further, I know from experience that my masthead rig becomes seriously 
overpowered once the wind gets greater than about 12 knots true, when its time 
to reef the main(I only have 1 reef point) and if it goes above ~ 15 knots, I 
need to roll the headsail a few turns (or change down to a 135% or 90% 
headsail).

I am not inclined to go less than the 155% allowed locally (PHRF) but maybe I 
should--the local North guy suggested ~ 140%. This might better match the local 
wind and is less expensive since less material is used. OTOH, I don't want to 
be under canvassed on the light air days.

Further, there is the question of sail material weight to consider.

I plan for this to be my last headsail purchase and may use it some for local 
cruising in addition to club racing. BTW, it will be used on a furler either 
way.

So what would the listers do!!

Charlie Nelson
1995 C 36 XL/kcb
Water Phantom




Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
  Thanks - Stu


--
Debbie Jeffcoatt
cell 416-251-2650

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send 

Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

[Glen Dickson via CnC-List]

I’m assuming you race in an area with enough wind to power the boat with a 
110%. Here on Lake Ontario, regular summer night beer can racing is often a 
drifter, and a 110 is the kiss of death. Suit the sails to the prevalent 
conditions. If a 110% is your go-to sail, you have to be in a windy area. If 
it’s moderate with some light air days, consider a 135 that you can partially 
furl at the very least. In light air locations, the best bet is a 155% with a 
back up smaller sail.

 

From: ALAN BERGEN via CnC-List 
Reply-To: Stus-List 
Date: Tuesday, February 9, 2021 at 11:01 AM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: ALAN BERGEN 
Subject: Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

 

When I changed from a 155 to a 135 genoa, I gained six seconds in PHRF with no 
significant change in speed. Next I changed to a 110% genoa. I gained another 
three seconds, slight decrease in speed, but I was able to point five degrees 
higher. I was able to point higher than everyone else in the fleet, getting to 
the windward mark a lot sooner than before switching to a 110.


Alan Bergen

35 Mk III Thirsty

Rose City YC

Portland, OR

 

 

 

On Tue, Feb 9, 2021 at 7:48 AM Debbie Jeffcoatt via CnC-List 
 wrote:

We race a 80's C 37 on Lake Ontario, club races with crew plus a double 
handed seriers and switched to a #2 (135%) several years ago, that was built to 
roll down to # 3 if needed.  Our PHRF was adjusted for the smaller head sail.  
We still have the large # 1, but haven't used it since.  Tacking time is a lot 
quicker and much easier when double handed.  Glayva won Boat of the Year in 
2019 with our great crew and this sail.  Our motivation to purchase the # 2, 
came from a C 35 racer in Kingston area.

 

Debbie

Glayva II

C 37

 

On Tue, Feb 9, 2021 at 5:49 AM Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List  
wrote:

Or keep your old patched 155 and use the 140 for the slightly breezier days and 
forego the reef 

From: Rod Stright via CnC-List 
Sent: February 9, 2021 5:30:15 AM
To: 'Stus-List'
Cc: Rod Stright
Subject: Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind 

 

Would you get a PHRF adjustment credit by moving to a 135% Roller Furling 
headsail?

 

Rod Stright

Halifax

 

From: Charlie Nelson via CnC-List  
Sent: February-09-21 12:23 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: cenel...@aol.com
Subject: Stus-List New sails, new wind

 

Hello all listers.  

 

I have a hypothetical for the racers among you. 

 

I need to replace my 3DL headsail--its mostly patches after ~ 5 years of club 
racing locally. This is about my 3rd laminate style headsail---and my last!

 

I am probably going with the North 3D Nordac which has replaced the former 3DL 
technology with what they call a composite sail--not laminated but still built 
over a 3D mold of the sail shape desired--if I understand this correctly. I do 
not need the super light and costly Raw or Endurance.

 

Anyhow, I plan to move to a new sailing area off Southport, NC near Bald Head 
Island at the mouth of the Cape Fear River--basically on the NC coast.

 

All my club racing to date has been in the Pamlico and Neuse Rivers, 
occasionally racing to Ocracoke across the Pamlico Sound. For these areas, a 
155% headsail is the largest you can race with locally without penalty and so 
that is what I have always used. 

 

The North sail maker suggested because of the higher coastal winds that I may 
not need a 155% since the wind strength is higher at the coast. OTOH, a racer 
there uses a 155% headsail and says he does well with it. 

 

I checked the historical average wind speed for Southport and New Bern and the 
coastal winds are from 20-25% higher than at New Bern. 

For instance, the avg. wind speed varies from 5.5-8.1 knots in New Bern vs. 
about 7-10 knots in Southport, or about 25% higher on average.

 

Further, I know from experience that my masthead rig becomes seriously 
overpowered once the wind gets greater than about 12 knots true, when its time 
to reef the main(I only have 1 reef point) and if it goes above ~ 15 knots, I 
need to roll the headsail a few turns (or change down to a 135% or 90% 
headsail).

 

I am not inclined to go less than the 155% allowed locally (PHRF) but maybe I 
should--the local North guy suggested ~ 140%. This might better match the local 
wind and is less expensive since less material is used. OTOH, I don't want to 
be under canvassed on the light air days. 

 

Further, there is the question of sail material weight to consider. 

 

I plan for this to be my last headsail purchase and may use it some for local 
cruising in addition to club racing. BTW, it will be used on a furler either 
way.

 

So what would the listers do!!

 

Charlie Nelson

1995 C 36 XL/kcb

Water Phantom

 

 

 

 

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu



-- 

Debbie Jeffcoatt

cell 416-251-2650

Thanks to all of the 

Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

[Rod Stright via CnC-List]

That should have read PHRF NC rules

 

From: Rod Stright via CnC-List  
Sent: February-09-21 12:01 PM
To: cenel...@aol.com
Cc: 'Stus-List' ; Rod Stright 
Subject: Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

 

>From PHRF NS Handicap Racing Fleet Rules section 3

 

“HANDICAP ADJUSTMENTS A. HEADSAILS Adjustment is based on the largest jib or 
genoa and determined by the LP/J ratio stated as a percent. No adjustment is 
made for the largest headsail having an LP/J greater than 135% and less than or 
equal to 155%. If the largest headsail has an LP/J of 111% to 135% a credit of 
3 (three) seconds per mile will given

 

Rod

 

From: cenel...@aol.com   mailto:cenel...@aol.com> > 
Sent: February-09-21 11:07 AM
To: strig...@eastlink.ca  
Subject: Re: Stus-List New sails, new wind

 

Unfortunately no--NC-PHRF assumes that anyone with a rating will fly up to a 
155% genoa and a proper sized kite. They give a credit for the roller furling 
(3 sec/mile) but not for smaller headsails and you get one rating whether you 
go non-spin or spin. 

 

Charlie

-Original Message-
From: Rod Stright mailto:strig...@eastlink.ca> >
To: 'Stus-List' mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> >
Cc: cenel...@aol.com  
Sent: Tue, Feb 9, 2021 4:30 am
Subject: RE: Stus-List New sails, new wind

Would you get a PHRF adjustment credit by moving to a 135% Roller Furling 
headsail?

 

Rod Stright

Halifax

 

From: Charlie Nelson via CnC-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > 
Sent: February-09-21 12:23 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com  
Cc: cenel...@aol.com  
Subject: Stus-List New sails, new wind

 

Hello all listers.  

 

I have a hypothetical for the racers among you. 

 

I need to replace my 3DL headsail--its mostly patches after ~ 5 years of club 
racing locally. This is about my 3rd laminate style headsail---and my last!

 

I am probably going with the North 3D Nordac which has replaced the former 3DL 
technology with what they call a composite sail--not laminated but still built 
over a 3D mold of the sail shape desired--if I understand this correctly. I do 
not need the super light and costly Raw or Endurance.

 

Anyhow, I plan to move to a new sailing area off Southport, NC near Bald Head 
Island at the mouth of the Cape Fear River--basically on the NC coast.

 

All my club racing to date has been in the Pamlico and Neuse Rivers, 
occasionally racing to Ocracoke across the Pamlico Sound. For these areas, a 
155% headsail is the largest you can race with locally without penalty and so 
that is what I have always used. 

 

The North sail maker suggested because of the higher coastal winds that I may 
not need a 155% since the wind strength is higher at the coast. OTOH, a racer 
there uses a 155% headsail and says he does well with it. 

 

I checked the historical average wind speed for Southport and New Bern and the 
coastal winds are from 20-25% higher than at New Bern. 

For instance, the avg. wind speed varies from 5.5-8.1 knots in New Bern vs. 
about 7-10 knots in Southport, or about 25% higher on average.

 

Further, I know from experience that my masthead rig becomes seriously 
overpowered once the wind gets greater than about 12 knots true, when its time 
to reef the main(I only have 1 reef point) and if it goes above ~ 15 knots, I 
need to roll the headsail a few turns (or change down to a 135% or 90% 
headsail).

 

I am not inclined to go less than the 155% allowed locally (PHRF) but maybe I 
should--the local North guy suggested ~ 140%. This might better match the local 
wind and is less expensive since less material is used. OTOH, I don't want to 
be under canvassed on the light air days. 

 

Further, there is the question of sail material weight to consider. 

 

I plan for this to be my last headsail purchase and may use it some for local 
cruising in addition to club racing. BTW, it will be used on a furler either 
way.

 

So what would the listers do!!

 

Charlie Nelson

1995 C 36 XL/kcb

Water Phantom

 

 

 

 

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

[ALAN BERGEN via CnC-List]

When I changed from a 155 to a 135 genoa, I gained six seconds in PHRF with
no significant change in speed. Next I changed to a 110% genoa. I gained
another three seconds, slight decrease in speed, but I was able to point
five degrees higher. I was able to point higher than everyone else in the
fleet, getting to the windward mark a lot sooner than before switching to a
110.

Alan Bergen
35 Mk III Thirsty
Rose City YC
Portland, OR



On Tue, Feb 9, 2021 at 7:48 AM Debbie Jeffcoatt via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> We race a 80's C 37 on Lake Ontario, club races with crew plus a double
> handed seriers and switched to a #2 (135%) several years ago, that was
> built to roll down to # 3 if needed.  Our PHRF was adjusted for the smaller
> head sail.  We still have the large # 1, but haven't used it since.
> Tacking time is a lot quicker and much easier when double handed.  Glayva
> won Boat of the Year in 2019 with our great crew and this sail.  Our
> motivation to purchase the # 2, came from a C 35 racer in Kingston area.
>
> Debbie
> Glayva II
> C 37
>
> On Tue, Feb 9, 2021 at 5:49 AM Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
>> Or keep your old patched 155 and use the 140 for the slightly breezier
>> days and forego the reef
>> --
>> *From:* Rod Stright via CnC-List 
>> *Sent:* February 9, 2021 5:30:15 AM
>> *To:* 'Stus-List'
>> *Cc:* Rod Stright
>> *Subject:* Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind
>>
>>
>> Would you get a PHRF adjustment credit by moving to a 135% Roller Furling
>> headsail?
>>
>>
>>
>> Rod Stright
>>
>> Halifax
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Charlie Nelson via CnC-List 
>> *Sent:* February-09-21 12:23 AM
>> *To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com
>> *Cc:* cenel...@aol.com
>> *Subject:* Stus-List New sails, new wind
>>
>>
>>
>> Hello all listers.
>>
>>
>>
>> I have a hypothetical for the racers among you.
>>
>>
>>
>> I need to replace my 3DL headsail--its mostly patches after ~ 5 years of
>> club racing locally. This is about my 3rd laminate style headsail---and my
>> last!
>>
>>
>>
>> I am probably going with the North 3D Nordac which has replaced the
>> former 3DL technology with what they call a composite sail--not laminated
>> but still built over a 3D mold of the sail shape desired--if I understand
>> this correctly. I do not need the super light and costly Raw or Endurance.
>>
>>
>>
>> Anyhow, I plan to move to a new sailing area off Southport, NC near Bald
>> Head Island at the mouth of the Cape Fear River--basically on the NC coast.
>>
>>
>>
>> All my club racing to date has been in the Pamlico and Neuse Rivers,
>> occasionally racing to Ocracoke across the Pamlico Sound. For these areas,
>> a 155% headsail is the largest you can race with locally without penalty
>> and so that is what I have always used.
>>
>>
>>
>> The North sail maker suggested because of the higher coastal winds that I
>> may not need a 155% since the wind strength is higher at the coast. OTOH, a
>> racer there uses a 155% headsail and says he does well with it.
>>
>>
>>
>> I checked the historical average wind speed for Southport and New Bern
>> and the coastal winds are from 20-25% higher than at New Bern.
>>
>> For instance, the avg. wind speed varies from 5.5-8.1 knots in New Bern
>> vs. about 7-10 knots in Southport, or about 25% higher on average.
>>
>>
>>
>> Further, I know from experience that my masthead rig becomes seriously
>> overpowered once the wind gets greater than about 12 knots true, when its
>> time to reef the main(I only have 1 reef point) and if it goes above ~ 15
>> knots, I need to roll the headsail a few turns (or change down to a 135% or
>> 90% headsail).
>>
>>
>>
>> I am not inclined to go less than the 155% allowed locally (PHRF) but
>> maybe I should--the local North guy suggested ~ 140%. This might better
>> match the local wind and is less expensive since less material is used.
>> OTOH, I don't want to be under canvassed on the light air days.
>>
>>
>>
>> Further, there is the question of sail material weight to consider.
>>
>>
>>
>> I plan for this to be my last headsail purchase and may use it some for
>> local cruising in addition to club racing. BTW, it will be used on a furler
>> either way.
>>
>>
>>
>> So what would the listers do!!
>>
>>
>>
>> Charlie Nelson
>>
>> 1995 C 36 XL/kcb
>>
>> Water Phantom
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help
>> with the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list -
>> use PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>> 
>> Thanks - Stu
>
>
>
> --
> Debbie Jeffcoatt
> cell 416-251-2650
> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with
> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use
> PayPal to send contribution --
> 

Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

[Rod Stright via CnC-List]

>From PHRF NS Handicap Racing Fleet Rules section 3

 

“HANDICAP ADJUSTMENTS A. HEADSAILS Adjustment is based on the largest jib or 
genoa and determined by the LP/J ratio stated as a percent. No adjustment is 
made for the largest headsail having an LP/J greater than 135% and less than or 
equal to 155%. If the largest headsail has an LP/J of 111% to 135% a credit of 
3 (three) seconds per mile will given

 

Rod

 

From: cenel...@aol.com  
Sent: February-09-21 11:07 AM
To: strig...@eastlink.ca
Subject: Re: Stus-List New sails, new wind

 

Unfortunately no--NC-PHRF assumes that anyone with a rating will fly up to a 
155% genoa and a proper sized kite. They give a credit for the roller furling 
(3 sec/mile) but not for smaller headsails and you get one rating whether you 
go non-spin or spin. 

 

Charlie



-Original Message-
From: Rod Stright mailto:strig...@eastlink.ca> >
To: 'Stus-List' mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> >
Cc: cenel...@aol.com  
Sent: Tue, Feb 9, 2021 4:30 am
Subject: RE: Stus-List New sails, new wind

Would you get a PHRF adjustment credit by moving to a 135% Roller Furling 
headsail?

 

Rod Stright

Halifax

 

From: Charlie Nelson via CnC-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > 
Sent: February-09-21 12:23 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com  
Cc: cenel...@aol.com  
Subject: Stus-List New sails, new wind

 

Hello all listers.  

 

I have a hypothetical for the racers among you. 

 

I need to replace my 3DL headsail--its mostly patches after ~ 5 years of club 
racing locally. This is about my 3rd laminate style headsail---and my last!

 

I am probably going with the North 3D Nordac which has replaced the former 3DL 
technology with what they call a composite sail--not laminated but still built 
over a 3D mold of the sail shape desired--if I understand this correctly. I do 
not need the super light and costly Raw or Endurance.

 

Anyhow, I plan to move to a new sailing area off Southport, NC near Bald Head 
Island at the mouth of the Cape Fear River--basically on the NC coast.

 

All my club racing to date has been in the Pamlico and Neuse Rivers, 
occasionally racing to Ocracoke across the Pamlico Sound. For these areas, a 
155% headsail is the largest you can race with locally without penalty and so 
that is what I have always used. 

 

The North sail maker suggested because of the higher coastal winds that I may 
not need a 155% since the wind strength is higher at the coast. OTOH, a racer 
there uses a 155% headsail and says he does well with it. 

 

I checked the historical average wind speed for Southport and New Bern and the 
coastal winds are from 20-25% higher than at New Bern. 

For instance, the avg. wind speed varies from 5.5-8.1 knots in New Bern vs. 
about 7-10 knots in Southport, or about 25% higher on average.

 

Further, I know from experience that my masthead rig becomes seriously 
overpowered once the wind gets greater than about 12 knots true, when its time 
to reef the main(I only have 1 reef point) and if it goes above ~ 15 knots, I 
need to roll the headsail a few turns (or change down to a 135% or 90% 
headsail).

 

I am not inclined to go less than the 155% allowed locally (PHRF) but maybe I 
should--the local North guy suggested ~ 140%. This might better match the local 
wind and is less expensive since less material is used. OTOH, I don't want to 
be under canvassed on the light air days. 

 

Further, there is the question of sail material weight to consider. 

 

I plan for this to be my last headsail purchase and may use it some for local 
cruising in addition to club racing. BTW, it will be used on a furler either 
way.

 

So what would the listers do!!

 

Charlie Nelson

1995 C 36 XL/kcb

Water Phantom

 

 

 

 

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Furling headsail

[Richard Bush via CnC-List]

 Debbie; I also have a 37 with a 135, (centerboard); I would like to know when 
and in what conditions do you shorten the 135? Does performance suffer? Thanks
 
Richard
 s/v Bushmark4: 1985 C 37 CB: Ohio River, Mile 596
Richard N. Bush Law Offices 
2950 Breckenridge Lane, Suite Nine 
Louisville, Kentucky 40220-1462 
502-584-7255 
 
-Original Message-
From: Debbie Jeffcoatt via CnC-List 
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Debbie Jeffcoatt 
Sent: Tue, Feb 9, 2021 10:48 am
Subject: Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

We race a 80's C 37 on Lake Ontario, club races with crew plus a double 
handed seriers and switched to a #2 (135%) several years ago, that was built to 
roll down to # 3 if needed.  Our PHRF was adjusted for the smaller head sail.  
We still have the large # 1, but haven't used it since.  Tacking time is a lot 
quicker and much easier when double handed.  Glayva won Boat of the Year in 
2019 with our great crew and this sail.  Our motivation to purchase the # 2, 
came from a C 35 racer in Kingston area.
DebbieGlayva IIC 37


bscribers that contributed to the list to help with the costs involved.  If you 
want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to send contribution --  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

[Debbie Jeffcoatt via CnC-List]

We race a 80's C 37 on Lake Ontario, club races with crew plus a double
handed seriers and switched to a #2 (135%) several years ago, that was
built to roll down to # 3 if needed.  Our PHRF was adjusted for the smaller
head sail.  We still have the large # 1, but haven't used it since.
Tacking time is a lot quicker and much easier when double handed.  Glayva
won Boat of the Year in 2019 with our great crew and this sail.  Our
motivation to purchase the # 2, came from a C 35 racer in Kingston area.

Debbie
Glayva II
C 37

On Tue, Feb 9, 2021 at 5:49 AM Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Or keep your old patched 155 and use the 140 for the slightly breezier
> days and forego the reef
> --
> *From:* Rod Stright via CnC-List 
> *Sent:* February 9, 2021 5:30:15 AM
> *To:* 'Stus-List'
> *Cc:* Rod Stright
> *Subject:* Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind
>
>
> Would you get a PHRF adjustment credit by moving to a 135% Roller Furling
> headsail?
>
>
>
> Rod Stright
>
> Halifax
>
>
>
> *From:* Charlie Nelson via CnC-List 
> *Sent:* February-09-21 12:23 AM
> *To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> *Cc:* cenel...@aol.com
> *Subject:* Stus-List New sails, new wind
>
>
>
> Hello all listers.
>
>
>
> I have a hypothetical for the racers among you.
>
>
>
> I need to replace my 3DL headsail--its mostly patches after ~ 5 years of
> club racing locally. This is about my 3rd laminate style headsail---and my
> last!
>
>
>
> I am probably going with the North 3D Nordac which has replaced the former
> 3DL technology with what they call a composite sail--not laminated but
> still built over a 3D mold of the sail shape desired--if I understand this
> correctly. I do not need the super light and costly Raw or Endurance.
>
>
>
> Anyhow, I plan to move to a new sailing area off Southport, NC near Bald
> Head Island at the mouth of the Cape Fear River--basically on the NC coast.
>
>
>
> All my club racing to date has been in the Pamlico and Neuse Rivers,
> occasionally racing to Ocracoke across the Pamlico Sound. For these areas,
> a 155% headsail is the largest you can race with locally without penalty
> and so that is what I have always used.
>
>
>
> The North sail maker suggested because of the higher coastal winds that I
> may not need a 155% since the wind strength is higher at the coast. OTOH, a
> racer there uses a 155% headsail and says he does well with it.
>
>
>
> I checked the historical average wind speed for Southport and New Bern and
> the coastal winds are from 20-25% higher than at New Bern.
>
> For instance, the avg. wind speed varies from 5.5-8.1 knots in New Bern
> vs. about 7-10 knots in Southport, or about 25% higher on average.
>
>
>
> Further, I know from experience that my masthead rig becomes seriously
> overpowered once the wind gets greater than about 12 knots true, when its
> time to reef the main(I only have 1 reef point) and if it goes above ~ 15
> knots, I need to roll the headsail a few turns (or change down to a 135% or
> 90% headsail).
>
>
>
> I am not inclined to go less than the 155% allowed locally (PHRF) but
> maybe I should--the local North guy suggested ~ 140%. This might better
> match the local wind and is less expensive since less material is used.
> OTOH, I don't want to be under canvassed on the light air days.
>
>
>
> Further, there is the question of sail material weight to consider.
>
>
>
> I plan for this to be my last headsail purchase and may use it some for
> local cruising in addition to club racing. BTW, it will be used on a furler
> either way.
>
>
>
> So what would the listers do!!
>
>
>
> Charlie Nelson
>
> 1995 C 36 XL/kcb
>
> Water Phantom
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with
> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks
> - Stu



-- 
Debbie Jeffcoatt
cell 416-251-2650
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

[Matthew via CnC-List]

Charlie:

 

It appears you are considering the correct factors.  “Average” 
wind speed can be misleading.  It depends how it’s being averaged.  Time of 
day, time of year, time when racing usually occurs, etc., can all factor in.  
For example, in Erie our Wednesday evening races are often light air because 
the wind tends to die in the evenings during most of the racing season.  If I 
looked at the average wind speed for the whole day, it would be higher than 
when we race.

 

I commented on NorDac a couple weeks ago.  If they get the 
shape right (which they did not do on my mainsail), it could be a reasonably 
fast, durable sail.  Given the surprising bulk, I suggest looking at a NorDac 
sail up close before ordering.

 

When I bought my boat it had a 135% furling dacron genoa.  For 
“real” racing (which I don’t do a lot of), I have a Doyle 153% racing genoa.  
For our Wednesday evening FJAM races, I would use the 135%, but we were always 
unpowered.  I did not want to change out to the good sail just for FJAM racing, 
so I decided to replace my 135% with a North 153% dacron (not NorDac) furling 
genoa, which I also use for cruising.   It has held up well for several years.  
I had it washed last year in the off-season, and it looks good.  Appears to be 
holding its shape.

 

Matt 

 

From: Charlie Nelson via CnC-List  
Sent: Monday, February 08, 2021 11:23 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: cenel...@aol.com
Subject: Stus-List New sails, new wind

 

Hello all listers.  

 

I have a hypothetical for the racers among you. 

 

I need to replace my 3DL headsail--its mostly patches after ~ 5 years of club 
racing locally. This is about my 3rd laminate style headsail---and my last!

 

I am probably going with the North 3D Nordac which has replaced the former 3DL 
technology with what they call a composite sail--not laminated but still built 
over a 3D mold of the sail shape desired--if I understand this correctly. I do 
not need the super light and costly Raw or Endurance.

 

Anyhow, I plan to move to a new sailing area off Southport, NC near Bald Head 
Island at the mouth of the Cape Fear River--basically on the NC coast.

 

All my club racing to date has been in the Pamlico and Neuse Rivers, 
occasionally racing to Ocracoke across the Pamlico Sound. For these areas, a 
155% headsail is the largest you can race with locally without penalty and so 
that is what I have always used. 

 

The North sail maker suggested because of the higher coastal winds that I may 
not need a 155% since the wind strength is higher at the coast. OTOH, a racer 
there uses a 155% headsail and says he does well with it. 

 

I checked the historical average wind speed for Southport and New Bern and the 
coastal winds are from 20-25% higher than at New Bern. 

For instance, the avg. wind speed varies from 5.5-8.1 knots in New Bern vs. 
about 7-10 knots in Southport, or about 25% higher on average.

 

Further, I know from experience that my masthead rig becomes seriously 
overpowered once the wind gets greater than about 12 knots true, when its time 
to reef the main(I only have 1 reef point) and if it goes above ~ 15 knots, I 
need to roll the headsail a few turns (or change down to a 135% or 90% 
headsail).

 

I am not inclined to go less than the 155% allowed locally (PHRF) but maybe I 
should--the local North guy suggested ~ 140%. This might better match the local 
wind and is less expensive since less material is used. OTOH, I don't want to 
be under canvassed on the light air days. 

 

Further, there is the question of sail material weight to consider. 

 

I plan for this to be my last headsail purchase and may use it some for local 
cruising in addition to club racing. BTW, it will be used on a furler either 
way.

 

So what would the listers do!!

 

Charlie Nelson

1995 C 36 XL/kcb

Water Phantom

 

 

 

 

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

[WILLIAM WALKER via CnC-List]

 Charlie,   I sail  and race Lake Michigan.  I moved from a UK laminate to 
Nordac in 2019.  My previous UK was a 145, furled beautifully.I went with a 150 
Nordac since I too felt I gave up too much on August light air days.   It is a 
MUCH heavier sail, but still furls nicely, though the furled profile is larger. 
 More weight aloft for sure.   Unless your phrf area is different than Lake 
Michigan phrf rules you will not get any additional credit (beyond the normal 
3% for furling headsail) for going to a smaller head sail.  Undersized sails 
are not credited here.  Check the rules for your area.   I think the Nordac are 
well made, good shape.  I wasnt quite ready for the weight and bulk when 
furled.  Bill Walker CnC 36Pentwater, Michigan         
On Monday, February 8, 2021, 11:23:05 PM EST, Charlie Nelson via CnC-List 
 wrote:  
 
 Hello all listers. 
I have a hypothetical for the racers among you. 
I need to replace my 3DL headsail--its mostly patches after ~ 5 years of club 
racing locally. This is about my 3rd laminate style headsail---and my last!
I am probably going with the North 3D Nordac which has replaced the former 3DL 
technology with what they call a composite sail--not laminated but still built 
over a 3D mold of the sail shape desired--if I understand this correctly. I do 
not need the super light and costly Raw or Endurance.
Anyhow, I plan to move to a new sailing area off Southport, NC near Bald Head 
Island at the mouth of the Cape Fear River--basically on the NC coast.
All my club racing to date has been in the Pamlico and Neuse Rivers, 
occasionally racing to Ocracoke across the Pamlico Sound. For these areas, a 
155% headsail is the largest you can race with locally without penalty and so 
that is what I have always used. 
The North sail maker suggested because of the higher coastal winds that I may 
not need a 155% since the wind strength is higher at the coast. OTOH, a racer 
there uses a 155% headsail and says he does well with it. 
I checked the historical average wind speed for Southport and New Bern and the 
coastal winds are from 20-25% higher than at New Bern. For instance, the avg. 
wind speed varies from 5.5-8.1 knots in New Bern vs. about 7-10 knots in 
Southport, or about 25% higher on average.
Further, I know from experience that my masthead rig becomes seriously 
overpowered once the wind gets greater than about 12 knots true, when its time 
to reef the main(I only have 1 reef point) and if it goes above ~ 15 knots, I 
need to roll the headsail a few turns (or change down to a 135% or 90% 
headsail).
I am not inclined to go less than the 155% allowed locally (PHRF) but maybe I 
should--the local North guy suggested ~ 140%. This might better match the local 
wind and is less expensive since less material is used. OTOH, I don't want to 
be under canvassed on the light air days. 
Further, there is the question of sail material weight to consider. 
I plan for this to be my last headsail purchase and may use it some for local 
cruising in addition to club racing. BTW, it will be used on a furler either 
way.
So what would the listers do!!
Charlie Nelson1995 C 36 XL/kcbWater Phantom



Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --  https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu  Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

[Glendickson--- via CnC-List]

I sail with a 155% 3Di composite sail. They are not made to be reefed on a 
furler. If you are overpowered at a ‘moderate’ wind speed, either step it down 
in size, or consider carrying a smaller sail in inventory. That’s why most of 
us club racers are broke...

> On Feb 9, 2021, at 7:08 AM, David Risch via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> As long as you get a rating adjustment go 140-145.   Less cost.  Less wear 
> and tear on boat, crew, sail and rig.   Much more manageable and better shape 
> when  roller furl.  
>  
> From: Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List  
> Sent: Tuesday, February 9, 2021 5:50 AM
> To: Stus-List 
> Cc: Hoyt, Mike 
> Subject: Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind
>  
> Or keep your old patched 155 and use the 140 for the slightly breezier days 
> and forego the reef
> From: Rod Stright via CnC-List 
> Sent: February 9, 2021 5:30:15 AM
> To: 'Stus-List'
> Cc: Rod Stright
> Subject: Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind
>  
> Would you get a PHRF adjustment credit by moving to a 135% Roller Furling 
> headsail?
>  
> Rod Stright
> Halifax
>  
> From: Charlie Nelson via CnC-List  
> Sent: February-09-21 12:23 AM
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Cc: cenel...@aol.com
> Subject: Stus-List New sails, new wind
>  
> Hello all listers. 
>  
> I have a hypothetical for the racers among you. 
>  
> I need to replace my 3DL headsail--its mostly patches after ~ 5 years of club 
> racing locally. This is about my 3rd laminate style headsail---and my last!
>  
> I am probably going with the North 3D Nordac which has replaced the former 
> 3DL technology with what they call a composite sail--not laminated but still 
> built over a 3D mold of the sail shape desired--if I understand this 
> correctly. I do not need the super light and costly Raw or Endurance.
>  
> Anyhow, I plan to move to a new sailing area off Southport, NC near Bald Head 
> Island at the mouth of the Cape Fear River--basically on the NC coast.
>  
> All my club racing to date has been in the Pamlico and Neuse Rivers, 
> occasionally racing to Ocracoke across the Pamlico Sound. For these areas, a 
> 155% headsail is the largest you can race with locally without penalty and so 
> that is what I have always used. 
>  
> The North sail maker suggested because of the higher coastal winds that I may 
> not need a 155% since the wind strength is higher at the coast. OTOH, a racer 
> there uses a 155% headsail and says he does well with it. 
>  
> I checked the historical average wind speed for Southport and New Bern and 
> the coastal winds are from 20-25% higher than at New Bern. 
> For instance, the avg. wind speed varies from 5.5-8.1 knots in New Bern vs. 
> about 7-10 knots in Southport, or about 25% higher on average.
>  
> Further, I know from experience that my masthead rig becomes seriously 
> overpowered once the wind gets greater than about 12 knots true, when its 
> time to reef the main(I only have 1 reef point) and if it goes above ~ 15 
> knots, I need to roll the headsail a few turns (or change down to a 135% or 
> 90% headsail).
>  
> I am not inclined to go less than the 155% allowed locally (PHRF) but maybe I 
> should--the local North guy suggested ~ 140%. This might better match the 
> local wind and is less expensive since less material is used. OTOH, I don't 
> want to be under canvassed on the light air days. 
>  
> Further, there is the question of sail material weight to consider. 
>  
> I plan for this to be my last headsail purchase and may use it some for local 
> cruising in addition to club racing. BTW, it will be used on a furler either 
> way.
>  
> So what would the listers do!!
>  
> Charlie Nelson
> 1995 C 36 XL/kcb
> Water Phantom
>  
>  
>  
>  
> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with 
> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use 
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

[Rod Stright via CnC-List]

I believe you could get a 3 second adjustment if the sail is 135% or less
and another 3 sec if it is a RF headsail tacked above the drum provided you
do not already get that credit.  That would apply to whatever headsails you
have as long as they fit on the RF.

 

Rod

 

From: David Risch via CnC-List  
Sent: February-09-21 8:09 AM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: David Risch 
Subject: Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

 

As long as you get a rating adjustment go 140-145.   Less cost.  Less wear
and tear on boat, crew, sail and rig.   Much more manageable and better
shape when  roller furl.   

 

From: Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > 
Sent: Tuesday, February 9, 2021 5:50 AM
To: Stus-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> >
Cc: Hoyt, Mike mailto:mike.h...@impgroup.com> >
Subject: Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

 

Or keep your old patched 155 and use the 140 for the slightly breezier days
and forego the reef 

  _  

From: Rod Stright via CnC-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> >
Sent: February 9, 2021 5:30:15 AM
To: 'Stus-List'
Cc: Rod Stright
Subject: Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind 

 

Would you get a PHRF adjustment credit by moving to a 135% Roller Furling
headsail?

 

Rod Stright

Halifax

 

From: Charlie Nelson via CnC-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > 
Sent: February-09-21 12:23 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com  
Cc: cenel...@aol.com  
Subject: Stus-List New sails, new wind

 

Hello all listers.  

 

I have a hypothetical for the racers among you. 

 

I need to replace my 3DL headsail--its mostly patches after ~ 5 years of
club racing locally. This is about my 3rd laminate style headsail---and my
last!

 

I am probably going with the North 3D Nordac which has replaced the former
3DL technology with what they call a composite sail--not laminated but still
built over a 3D mold of the sail shape desired--if I understand this
correctly. I do not need the super light and costly Raw or Endurance.

 

Anyhow, I plan to move to a new sailing area off Southport, NC near Bald
Head Island at the mouth of the Cape Fear River--basically on the NC coast.

 

All my club racing to date has been in the Pamlico and Neuse Rivers,
occasionally racing to Ocracoke across the Pamlico Sound. For these areas, a
155% headsail is the largest you can race with locally without penalty and
so that is what I have always used. 

 

The North sail maker suggested because of the higher coastal winds that I
may not need a 155% since the wind strength is higher at the coast. OTOH, a
racer there uses a 155% headsail and says he does well with it. 

 

I checked the historical average wind speed for Southport and New Bern and
the coastal winds are from 20-25% higher than at New Bern. 

For instance, the avg. wind speed varies from 5.5-8.1 knots in New Bern vs.
about 7-10 knots in Southport, or about 25% higher on average.

 

Further, I know from experience that my masthead rig becomes seriously
overpowered once the wind gets greater than about 12 knots true, when its
time to reef the main(I only have 1 reef point) and if it goes above ~ 15
knots, I need to roll the headsail a few turns (or change down to a 135% or
90% headsail).

 

I am not inclined to go less than the 155% allowed locally (PHRF) but maybe
I should--the local North guy suggested ~ 140%. This might better match the
local wind and is less expensive since less material is used. OTOH, I don't
want to be under canvassed on the light air days. 

 

Further, there is the question of sail material weight to consider. 

 

I plan for this to be my last headsail purchase and may use it some for
local cruising in addition to club racing. BTW, it will be used on a furler
either way.

 

So what would the listers do!!

 

Charlie Nelson

1995 C 36 XL/kcb

Water Phantom

 

 

 

 

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

[David Risch via CnC-List]

As long as you get a rating adjustment go 140-145.   Less cost.  Less wear and 
tear on boat, crew, sail and rig.   Much more manageable and better shape when  
roller furl.

From: Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List 
Sent: Tuesday, February 9, 2021 5:50 AM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Hoyt, Mike 
Subject: Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

Or keep your old patched 155 and use the 140 for the slightly breezier days and 
forego the reef

From: Rod Stright via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Sent: February 9, 2021 5:30:15 AM
To: 'Stus-List'
Cc: Rod Stright
Subject: Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

Would you get a PHRF adjustment credit by moving to a 135% Roller Furling 
headsail?

Rod Stright
Halifax

From: Charlie Nelson via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Sent: February-09-21 12:23 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: cenel...@aol.com
Subject: Stus-List New sails, new wind

Hello all listers.

I have a hypothetical for the racers among you.

I need to replace my 3DL headsail--its mostly patches after ~ 5 years of club 
racing locally. This is about my 3rd laminate style headsail---and my last!

I am probably going with the North 3D Nordac which has replaced the former 3DL 
technology with what they call a composite sail--not laminated but still built 
over a 3D mold of the sail shape desired--if I understand this correctly. I do 
not need the super light and costly Raw or Endurance.

Anyhow, I plan to move to a new sailing area off Southport, NC near Bald Head 
Island at the mouth of the Cape Fear River--basically on the NC coast.

All my club racing to date has been in the Pamlico and Neuse Rivers, 
occasionally racing to Ocracoke across the Pamlico Sound. For these areas, a 
155% headsail is the largest you can race with locally without penalty and so 
that is what I have always used.

The North sail maker suggested because of the higher coastal winds that I may 
not need a 155% since the wind strength is higher at the coast. OTOH, a racer 
there uses a 155% headsail and says he does well with it.

I checked the historical average wind speed for Southport and New Bern and the 
coastal winds are from 20-25% higher than at New Bern.
For instance, the avg. wind speed varies from 5.5-8.1 knots in New Bern vs. 
about 7-10 knots in Southport, or about 25% higher on average.

Further, I know from experience that my masthead rig becomes seriously 
overpowered once the wind gets greater than about 12 knots true, when its time 
to reef the main(I only have 1 reef point) and if it goes above ~ 15 knots, I 
need to roll the headsail a few turns (or change down to a 135% or 90% 
headsail).

I am not inclined to go less than the 155% allowed locally (PHRF) but maybe I 
should--the local North guy suggested ~ 140%. This might better match the local 
wind and is less expensive since less material is used. OTOH, I don't want to 
be under canvassed on the light air days.

Further, there is the question of sail material weight to consider.

I plan for this to be my last headsail purchase and may use it some for local 
cruising in addition to club racing. BTW, it will be used on a furler either 
way.

So what would the listers do!!

Charlie Nelson
1995 C 36 XL/kcb
Water Phantom




Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

[Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List]

Or keep your old patched 155 and use the 140 for the slightly breezier days and 
forego the reef

From: Rod Stright via CnC-List 
Sent: February 9, 2021 5:30:15 AM
To: 'Stus-List'
Cc: Rod Stright
Subject: Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

Would you get a PHRF adjustment credit by moving to a 135% Roller Furling 
headsail?

Rod Stright
Halifax

From: Charlie Nelson via CnC-List 
Sent: February-09-21 12:23 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: cenel...@aol.com
Subject: Stus-List New sails, new wind

Hello all listers.

I have a hypothetical for the racers among you.

I need to replace my 3DL headsail--its mostly patches after ~ 5 years of club 
racing locally. This is about my 3rd laminate style headsail---and my last!

I am probably going with the North 3D Nordac which has replaced the former 3DL 
technology with what they call a composite sail--not laminated but still built 
over a 3D mold of the sail shape desired--if I understand this correctly. I do 
not need the super light and costly Raw or Endurance.

Anyhow, I plan to move to a new sailing area off Southport, NC near Bald Head 
Island at the mouth of the Cape Fear River--basically on the NC coast.

All my club racing to date has been in the Pamlico and Neuse Rivers, 
occasionally racing to Ocracoke across the Pamlico Sound. For these areas, a 
155% headsail is the largest you can race with locally without penalty and so 
that is what I have always used.

The North sail maker suggested because of the higher coastal winds that I may 
not need a 155% since the wind strength is higher at the coast. OTOH, a racer 
there uses a 155% headsail and says he does well with it.

I checked the historical average wind speed for Southport and New Bern and the 
coastal winds are from 20-25% higher than at New Bern.
For instance, the avg. wind speed varies from 5.5-8.1 knots in New Bern vs. 
about 7-10 knots in Southport, or about 25% higher on average.

Further, I know from experience that my masthead rig becomes seriously 
overpowered once the wind gets greater than about 12 knots true, when its time 
to reef the main(I only have 1 reef point) and if it goes above ~ 15 knots, I 
need to roll the headsail a few turns (or change down to a 135% or 90% 
headsail).

I am not inclined to go less than the 155% allowed locally (PHRF) but maybe I 
should--the local North guy suggested ~ 140%. This might better match the local 
wind and is less expensive since less material is used. OTOH, I don't want to 
be under canvassed on the light air days.

Further, there is the question of sail material weight to consider.

I plan for this to be my last headsail purchase and may use it some for local 
cruising in addition to club racing. BTW, it will be used on a furler either 
way.

So what would the listers do!!

Charlie Nelson
1995 C 36 XL/kcb
Water Phantom




Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

[Rod Stright via CnC-List]

Would you get a PHRF adjustment credit by moving to a 135% Roller Furling 
headsail?

 

Rod Stright

Halifax

 

From: Charlie Nelson via CnC-List  
Sent: February-09-21 12:23 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: cenel...@aol.com
Subject: Stus-List New sails, new wind

 

Hello all listers.  

 

I have a hypothetical for the racers among you. 

 

I need to replace my 3DL headsail--its mostly patches after ~ 5 years of club 
racing locally. This is about my 3rd laminate style headsail---and my last!

 

I am probably going with the North 3D Nordac which has replaced the former 3DL 
technology with what they call a composite sail--not laminated but still built 
over a 3D mold of the sail shape desired--if I understand this correctly. I do 
not need the super light and costly Raw or Endurance.

 

Anyhow, I plan to move to a new sailing area off Southport, NC near Bald Head 
Island at the mouth of the Cape Fear River--basically on the NC coast.

 

All my club racing to date has been in the Pamlico and Neuse Rivers, 
occasionally racing to Ocracoke across the Pamlico Sound. For these areas, a 
155% headsail is the largest you can race with locally without penalty and so 
that is what I have always used. 

 

The North sail maker suggested because of the higher coastal winds that I may 
not need a 155% since the wind strength is higher at the coast. OTOH, a racer 
there uses a 155% headsail and says he does well with it. 

 

I checked the historical average wind speed for Southport and New Bern and the 
coastal winds are from 20-25% higher than at New Bern. 

For instance, the avg. wind speed varies from 5.5-8.1 knots in New Bern vs. 
about 7-10 knots in Southport, or about 25% higher on average.

 

Further, I know from experience that my masthead rig becomes seriously 
overpowered once the wind gets greater than about 12 knots true, when its time 
to reef the main(I only have 1 reef point) and if it goes above ~ 15 knots, I 
need to roll the headsail a few turns (or change down to a 135% or 90% 
headsail).

 

I am not inclined to go less than the 155% allowed locally (PHRF) but maybe I 
should--the local North guy suggested ~ 140%. This might better match the local 
wind and is less expensive since less material is used. OTOH, I don't want to 
be under canvassed on the light air days. 

 

Further, there is the question of sail material weight to consider. 

 

I plan for this to be my last headsail purchase and may use it some for local 
cruising in addition to club racing. BTW, it will be used on a furler either 
way.

 

So what would the listers do!!

 

Charlie Nelson

1995 C 36 XL/kcb

Water Phantom

 

 

 

 

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu