Re: Stus-List Australian Cup Wing Keel

[schiller via CnC-List]

One of my last projects at Parker Hannifin before retiring was to 
provide Aerospace DC Electric Motor Hydraulic Pumps for the AC45 
training boats.  The competition boats will have manually cranked 
hydraulic pumps (also aerospace).  Parker Hannifin teamed up with the 
Oracle team.  If that isn't high tech, what is?


Neil Schiller
1970 Redwing 35, Hull #7
(C&C 35, Mark I)
"Corsair"

On 5/3/2016 9:26 AM, Marek Dziedzic via CnC-List wrote:
I am not sure if watching the foiling catamarans at 40 kt. is not fun. 
I think it is quite exciting (especially watching it on TV, with all 
the virtual reality add-ons) . But I also think that watching the 
current AC is a bit like watching F1 or Indy car races – it might be 
exciting, but there is no relation to what (or how) we drive on the 
regular basis. The same applies to AC. The 12 m boats where “boats”(as 
opposed to some weird contraptions), kind of similar (at least by the 
looks) to what we sail on the daily basis. Their techniques and 
tactics where easily translatable to how we sail our boats (at least 
in theory). I think this is why we all liked it more.

just my 2c
Marek
*From:* Ronald B. Frerker via CnC-List <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
*Sent:* Tuesday, May 3, 2016 01:29
*To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
*Cc:* Ronald B. Frerker <mailto:rbfrer...@yahoo.com>
*Subject:* Re: Stus-List Australian Cup Wing Keel
This is after the 12 meters were abandoned in favor of the larger 
America's Cup Class (ACC).  I know they were faster and could surf a 
large wave IIRC.
However, there was nothing that pointed higher than the 12m and it 
certainly created some neat tactical races.

I kinda wish we were back to the twelves, or at least the ACCs.
These foilers are fast, but not near so much fun to watch; probably a 
blast to be on board!  Twelves were more like what we race round the 
buoys; but bigger.

Ron
Wild Cheri
C&C 30-1
STL




___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!


___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Australian Cup Wing Keel

[Marek Dziedzic via CnC-List]

I am not sure if watching the foiling catamarans at 40 kt. is not fun. I think 
it is quite exciting (especially watching it on TV, with all the virtual 
reality add-ons) . But I also think that watching the current AC is a bit like 
watching F1 or Indy car races – it might be exciting, but there is no relation 
to what (or how) we drive on the regular basis. The same applies to AC. The 12 
m boats where “boats”(as opposed to some weird contraptions), kind of similar 
(at least by the looks) to what we sail on the daily basis. Their techniques 
and tactics where easily translatable to how we sail our boats (at least in 
theory). I think this is why we all liked it more.

just my 2c

Marek

From: Ronald B. Frerker via CnC-List 
Sent: Tuesday, May 3, 2016 01:29
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: Ronald B. Frerker 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Australian Cup Wing Keel

This is after the 12 meters were abandoned in favor of the larger America's Cup 
Class (ACC).  I know they were faster and could surf a large wave IIRC.
However, there was nothing that pointed higher than the 12m and it certainly 
created some neat tactical races.
I kinda wish we were back to the twelves, or at least the ACCs.
These foilers are fast, but not near so much fun to watch; probably a blast to 
be on board!  Twelves were more like what we race round the buoys; but bigger.
Ron
Wild Cheri
C&C 30-1
STL



 

___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Australian Cup Wing Keel

[Ronald B. Frerker via CnC-List]

This is after the 12 meters were abandoned in favor of the larger America's Cup 
Class (ACC).  I know they were faster and could surf a large wave IIRC.However, 
there was nothing that pointed higher than the 12m and it certainly created 
some neat tactical races.I kinda wish we were back to the twelves, or at least 
the ACCs.These foilers are fast, but not near so much fun to watch; probably a 
blast to be on board!  Twelves were more like what we race round the buoys; but 
bigger.RonWild CheriC&C 30-1STL


  From: Chuck Gilchrest via CnC-List 
Gary,There were several renditions of Young America syndicates.This is the 
yacht in question https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_America_(1994_yacht)
Connor won the defender series on Stars and Stripes but switched boats.n May 1, 
2016, at 4:18 PM, Gary Russell via CnC-List  wrote:


Conner's boat was not Young America (a syndicate out of New York Yacht Club), 
but I believe it was Stars & stripes.  The skmipper for Young America was Ed 
Baird.Gary

On Sun, May 1, 2016 at 12:37 PM, Chuck S via CnC-List  
wrote:

Agree,  John Bertrand wrote a book that described the design process of the 
Australian winged keel, the controversy around it, and he stated the keel was 
chosen to get more sail area within the rule, and the hull was very fast and 
another keel might have improved it further.  That keel was weird, long along 
the bottom and narrow where it met the hull.  Bertrand did a Herculean job 
overcoming several breakdowns including his bowman breaking his arm while 
aloft, which were all forgotten when the keel was unveiled.  Liberty was a 
slower boat and Conners was challenged to defend the cup with his superior crew 
but inferior boat.  Years later, Conners won the preliminary Cup races, and 
then switched to a faster boat.  I think it was Young America.  
Later, Hunter and Catalina produced many production boats with short winged 
keels.  The Rob Ball winged keel of the 1988 to 1995 vintage has much thicker 
wings and the PHRF ratings prove better performance.  He managed to get the 
weight very low without increasing the displacement very much.




  ___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Australian Cup Wing Keel

[Chuck Gilchrest via CnC-List]

Gary,
There were several renditions of Young America syndicates.
This is the yacht in question 
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_America_(1994_yacht)

Connor won the defender series on Stars and Stripes but switched boats.
Chuck Gilchrest
Half Magic
1983 LF 35
Padanaram MA

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 1, 2016, at 4:18 PM, Gary Russell via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> Conner's boat was not Young America (a syndicate out of New York Yacht Club), 
> but I believe it was Stars & stripes.  The skmipper for Young America was Ed 
> Baird.
> Gary
> S/V Kaylarah
> '90 C&C 37+
> East Greenwich, RI, USA
> 
> ~~~_/)~~
> 
> 
>> On Sun, May 1, 2016 at 12:37 PM, Chuck S via CnC-List 
>>  wrote:
>> Agree, 
>> John Bertrand wrote a book that described the design process of the 
>> Australian winged keel, the controversy around it, and he stated the keel 
>> was chosen to get more sail area within the rule, and the hull was very fast 
>> and another keel might have improved it further.  That keel was weird, long 
>> along the bottom and narrow where it met the hull.  Bertrand did a Herculean 
>> job overcoming several breakdowns including his bowman breaking his arm 
>> while aloft, which were all forgotten when the keel was unveiled.  Liberty 
>> was a slower boat and Conners was challenged to defend the cup with his 
>> superior crew but inferior boat.  Years later, Conners won the preliminary 
>> Cup races, and then switched to a faster boat.  I think it was Young 
>> America.  
>> 
>> Later, Hunter and Catalina produced many production boats with short winged 
>> keels.  The Rob Ball winged keel of the 1988 to 1995 vintage has much 
>> thicker wings and the PHRF ratings prove better performance.  He managed to 
>> get the weight very low without increasing the displacement very much.
>> 
>> 
>> Chuck
>> Resolute
>> 1990 C&C 34R
>> Broad Creek, Magothy River, Md
>> 
>> From: "John Pennie via CnC-List" 
>> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
>> Cc: "John Pennie" 
>> Sent: Sunday, May 1, 2016 12:03:43 PM
>> Subject: Re: Stus-List Wing Keel Lift?
>> 
>> Your dates are right but I don’t believe there was any magic to the wing 
>> keel - other than a way around the 12 meter measurement rule,  I believe 
>> they referred to them as winglets.  The also used a film on top of the keel 
>> called “riblets”- really.
>> 
>> John
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On May 1, 2016, at 11:35 AM, robert via CnC-List  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> The America's Cup left the NYYC in 1983 but I believe Dennis Conner won it 
>> back in Perth, Aus, in 1987.   
>> 
>> So, correct, it did not return to New York City but I am confident the 
>> Americans won it back with an even different keel..I have a book 
>> somewhere on the keel he used in Perth..it's like a fin keel with an 
>> extension that goes back.there a name for it.they kept it under raps 
>> until after the races.  I'll look it up later.
>> 
>> Conner's tested it in Hawaii before bringing it to Perth..it worked.
>> 
>> Rob Abbott
>> AZURA
>> C&C 32 -84 
>> Halifax, N.S.
>> 
>> On 2016-04-30 4:27 PM, Jerome Tauber via CnC-List wrote:
>> (Sorry - first posted this as reply to wrong posting).   Keel lift is a 
>> horizontal, not vertical force.   Keels are hydrodynamic foils - when they 
>> are moved through water they cause both lift and drag forces to develop. 
>> Lift is the positive lateral force that allows a boat to move to windward - 
>> drag is the negative, resisting force.  A good sailboat keel design has a 
>> high lift-to-drag ratio.  Wing keels were developed by the Australians to 
>> win the 1983 America's Cup (first U.S. loss) by getting around the keel 
>> depth rules.  When the boat heels, the wings increase the draft of the keel 
>> creating additional lift.   This being said, I'm sure the angle at which the 
>> wing cuts into the water does have an effect but that is not what is meant 
>> by keel lift.   The America's Cup left NY in 1983 never to return but this 
>> May there will be some preliminary cup races in NY Harbor with boats that 
>> truly do lift out of the water.Jerry
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Lorne Serpa via CnC-List 
>> To: cnc-list 
>> Cc: Lorne Serpa 
>> Sent: Sat, Apr 30, 2016 2:47 pm
>> Subject: Stus-List Wing Keel Lift?
>> 
>> So, working on buying my 1st sailboat greater than 15'.  It's a 1988 30MkII.
>> It has a wing keel.  I read somewhere that a wing keel generates some lift.
>> So
>> Does a wing keel create lift?
>> Should I have more heavy stuff at the back of the boat for increased angle 
>> of attack on the keel?
>> Or..
>> don't be silly.. its a 8,000lb boat going 5 knots.It 
>> does nothing.
>>  
>> Lorne
>> ___
>> 
>> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
>> what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions 
>> are greatly appreciated!
>> 
>> 
>> ___

Re: Stus-List Australian Cup Wing Keel

[Gary Russell via CnC-List]

Conner's boat was not Young America (a syndicate out of New York Yacht
Club), but I believe it was Stars & stripes.  The skmipper for Young
America was Ed Baird.
Gary
S/V Kaylarah
'90 C&C 37+
East Greenwich, RI, USA

~~~_/)~~


On Sun, May 1, 2016 at 12:37 PM, Chuck S via CnC-List  wrote:

> Agree,
> John Bertrand wrote a book that described the design process of the
> Australian winged keel, the controversy around it, and he stated the keel
> was chosen to get more sail area within the rule, and the hull was very
> fast and another keel might have improved it further.  That keel was weird,
> long along the bottom and narrow where it met the hull.  Bertrand did a
> Herculean job overcoming several breakdowns including his bowman breaking
> his arm while aloft, which were all forgotten when the keel was unveiled.
> Liberty was a slower boat and Conners was challenged to defend the cup with
> his superior crew but inferior boat.  Years later, Conners won the
> preliminary Cup races, and then switched to a faster boat.  I think it was
> Young America.
>
> Later, Hunter and Catalina produced many production boats with short
> winged keels.  The Rob Ball winged keel of the 1988 to 1995 vintage has
> much thicker wings and the PHRF ratings prove better performance.  He
> managed to get the weight very low without increasing the displacement very
> much.
>
>
> Chuck
> Resolute
> 1990 C&C 34R
> Broad Creek, Magothy River, Md
>
> --
> *From: *"John Pennie via CnC-List" 
> *To: *cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> *Cc: *"John Pennie" 
> *Sent: *Sunday, May 1, 2016 12:03:43 PM
> *Subject: *Re: Stus-List Wing Keel Lift?
>
> Your dates are right but I don’t believe there was any magic to the wing
> keel - other than a way around the 12 meter measurement rule,  I believe
> they referred to them as winglets.  The also used a film on top of the keel
> called “riblets”- really.
>
> John
>
>
>
> On May 1, 2016, at 11:35 AM, robert via CnC-List 
> wrote:
>
> The America's Cup left the NYYC in 1983 but I believe Dennis Conner won it
> back in Perth, Aus, in 1987.
>
> So, correct, it did not return to New York City but I am confident the
> Americans won it back with an even different keel..I have a book
> somewhere on the keel he used in Perth..it's like a fin keel with an
> extension that goes back.there a name for it.they kept it under
> raps until after the races.  I'll look it up later.
>
> Conner's tested it in Hawaii before bringing it to Perth..it worked.
>
> Rob Abbott
> AZURA
> C&C 32 -84
> Halifax, N.S.
>
> On 2016-04-30 4:27 PM, Jerome Tauber via CnC-List wrote:
>
> (Sorry - first posted this as reply to wrong posting).   Keel lift is a
> horizontal, not vertical force.   Keels are hydrodynamic foils - when they
> are moved through water they cause both lift and drag forces to develop.
> Lift is the positive lateral force that allows a boat to move to windward -
> drag is the negative, resisting force.  A good sailboat keel design has a
> high lift-to-drag ratio.  Wing keels were developed by the Australians to
> win the 1983 America's Cup (first U.S. loss) by getting around the keel
> depth rules.  When the boat heels, the wings increase the draft of the keel
> creating additional lift.   This being said, I'm sure the angle at which
> the wing cuts into the water does have an effect but that is not what is
> meant by keel lift.   The America's Cup left NY in 1983 never to return but
> this May there will be some preliminary cup races in NY Harbor with boats
> that truly do lift out of the water.Jerry
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Lorne Serpa via CnC-List 
> 
> To: cnc-list  
> Cc: Lorne Serpa  
> Sent: Sat, Apr 30, 2016 2:47 pm
> Subject: Stus-List Wing Keel Lift?
>
> So, working on buying my 1st sailboat greater than 15'.  It's a 1988
> 30MkII.
> It has a wing keel.  I read somewhere that a wing keel generates some lift.
> So
> Does a wing keel create lift?
> Should I have more heavy stuff at the back of the boat for increased angle
> of attack on the keel?
> Or..
> don't be silly.. its a 8,000lb boat going 5 knots.  It does nothing.
>
> Lorne
> ___
>
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
> like what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All
> Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>
>
> ___
>
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
> what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions 
> are greatly appreciated!
>
>
> ___
>
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
> like what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All
> Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>
>
>
> ___
>
> This list is supported by the generous donat

Re: Stus-List Australian Cup Wing Keel

[Jerome Tauber via CnC-List]

Painted by Roy Lichenstein.  It's at the Storm King sculpture garden.  Jerry. 
J&J.  27-V.   

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 1, 2016, at 3:02 PM, Chuck Gilchrest via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> Connor's Stars and Stripes was much slower than Young America and was given 
> the OK to switch boats to YA for the unsuccessful Cup Defense against Russell 
> Coutts on New Zeeland.  Young America was famously  painted with a Mermaid 
> along the top sides of the hull.
> 
>   When I bought my original Half Magic C&C 25, she was next to Young America 
> on the hard in Quonsett Point, RI.  All the deck hardware and keel had been 
> removed from YA's hull and she was later trucked to an outdoor art museum in 
> the Catskills where she still sits.
> Chuck Gilchrest
> Half Magic
> 1983 LF 35
> Padanaram, MA
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On May 1, 2016, at 1:16 PM, John Pennie via CnC-List  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Actually I thought Young America was the boat with the forward rudder. old 
>> age is terrible as I can’t recall the skipper’s name - very famous and 
>> talented fellow.  Conners went with a 2nd Stars & Stripes.
>> 
>> John
>> 
>>> On May 1, 2016, at 12:37 PM, Chuck S via CnC-List  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Agree, 
>>> John Bertrand wrote a book that described the design process of the 
>>> Australian winged keel, the controversy around it, and he stated the keel 
>>> was chosen to get more sail area within the rule, and the hull was very 
>>> fast and another keel might have improved it further.  That keel was weird, 
>>> long along the bottom and narrow where it met the hull.  Bertrand did a 
>>> Herculean job overcoming several breakdowns including his bowman breaking 
>>> his arm while aloft, which were all forgotten when the keel was unveiled.  
>>> Liberty was a slower boat and Conners was challenged to defend the cup with 
>>> his superior crew but inferior boat.  Years later, Conners won the 
>>> preliminary Cup races, and then switched to a faster boat.  I think it was 
>>> Young America.  
>>> 
>>> Later, Hunter and Catalina produced many production boats with short winged 
>>> keels.  The Rob Ball winged keel of the 1988 to 1995 vintage has much 
>>> thicker wings and the PHRF ratings prove better performance.  He managed to 
>>> get the weight very low without increasing the displacement very much.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Chuck
>>> Resolute
>>> 1990 C&C 34R
>>> Broad Creek, Magothy River, Md
>>> 
>>> From: "John Pennie via CnC-List" 
>>> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
>>> Cc: "John Pennie" 
>>> Sent: Sunday, May 1, 2016 12:03:43 PM
>>> Subject: Re: Stus-List Wing Keel Lift?
>>> 
>>> Your dates are right but I don’t believe there was any magic to the wing 
>>> keel - other than a way around the 12 meter measurement rule,  I believe 
>>> they referred to them as winglets.  The also used a film on top of the keel 
>>> called “riblets”- really.
>>> 
>>> John
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On May 1, 2016, at 11:35 AM, robert via CnC-List  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> The America's Cup left the NYYC in 1983 but I believe Dennis Conner won it 
>>> back in Perth, Aus, in 1987.   
>>> 
>>> So, correct, it did not return to New York City but I am confident the 
>>> Americans won it back with an even different keel..I have a book 
>>> somewhere on the keel he used in Perth..it's like a fin keel with an 
>>> extension that goes back.there a name for it.they kept it under 
>>> raps until after the races.  I'll look it up later.
>>> 
>>> Conner's tested it in Hawaii before bringing it to Perth..it worked.
>>> 
>>> Rob Abbott
>>> AZURA
>>> C&C 32 -84 
>>> Halifax, N.S.
>>> 
>>> On 2016-04-30 4:27 PM, Jerome Tauber via CnC-List wrote:
>>> (Sorry - first posted this as reply to wrong posting).   Keel lift is a 
>>> horizontal, not vertical force.   Keels are hydrodynamic foils - when they 
>>> are moved through water they cause both lift and drag forces to develop. 
>>> Lift is the positive lateral force that allows a boat to move to windward - 
>>> drag is the negative, resisting force.  A good sailboat keel design has a 
>>> high lift-to-drag ratio.  Wing keels were developed by the Australians to 
>>> win the 1983 America's Cup (first U.S. loss) by getting around the keel 
>>> depth rules.  When the boat heels, the wings increase the draft of the keel 
>>> creating additional lift.   This being said, I'm sure the   
>>> angle at which the wing cuts into the water does have an effect but that is 
>>> not what is meant by keel lift.   The America's Cup left NY in 1983 never 
>>> to return but this May there will be some preliminary cup races in NY 
>>> Harbor with boats that truly do lift out of the water.Jerry
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: Lorne Serpa via CnC-List 
>>> To: cnc-list 
>>> Cc: Lorne Serpa 
>>> Sent: Sat, Apr 30, 2016 2:47 pm
>>> Subject: Stus-List Wing Keel Lift?
>>> 
>>> So, working on buying my 1st sailboat greater than 15'.  It's a 1988 30MkII.
>>> It has a wing keel.  I read somewhere

Re: Stus-List Australian Cup Wing Keel

[Andrew Burton via CnC-List]

The 12 Metre with the canard--forward rudder--was USA 61 sailed by Tom 
Blackhaller built for the 1987 Americas Cup. In Oz. She's still in Newport, at 
New England boat works looking pretty sad. She was apparently an incredibly 
difficult boat to steer but when they had it right, was very fast. They didn't 
have it right often enough!

Andy
C&C 40
Peregrine

Andrew Burton
61 W Narragansett
Newport, RI 
USA02840

http://sites.google.com/site/andrewburtonyachtservices/
+401 965-5260

> On 
> 
>> On May 1, 2016, at 1:16 PM, John Pennie via CnC-List  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Actually I thought Young America was the boat with the forward rudder. old 
>> age is terrible as I can’t recall the skipper’s name - very famous and 
>> talented fellow.  Conners went with a 2nd Stars & Stripes.
>> 
>> John
>> 
>>> On May 1, 2016, at 12:37 PM, Chuck S via CnC-List  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Australian Cup Wing Keel

[Chuck Gilchrest via CnC-List]

Connor's Stars and Stripes was much slower than Young America and was given the 
OK to switch boats to YA for the unsuccessful Cup Defense against Russell 
Coutts on New Zeeland.  Young America was famously  painted with a Mermaid 
along the top sides of the hull.

  When I bought my original Half Magic C&C 25, she was next to Young America on 
the hard in Quonsett Point, RI.  All the deck hardware and keel had been 
removed from YA's hull and she was later trucked to an outdoor art museum in 
the Catskills where she still sits.
Chuck Gilchrest
Half Magic
1983 LF 35
Padanaram, MA
Sent from my iPhone

> On May 1, 2016, at 1:16 PM, John Pennie via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> Actually I thought Young America was the boat with the forward rudder. old 
> age is terrible as I can’t recall the skipper’s name - very famous and 
> talented fellow.  Conners went with a 2nd Stars & Stripes.
> 
> John
> 
>> On May 1, 2016, at 12:37 PM, Chuck S via CnC-List  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Agree, 
>> John Bertrand wrote a book that described the design process of the 
>> Australian winged keel, the controversy around it, and he stated the keel 
>> was chosen to get more sail area within the rule, and the hull was very fast 
>> and another keel might have improved it further.  That keel was weird, long 
>> along the bottom and narrow where it met the hull.  Bertrand did a Herculean 
>> job overcoming several breakdowns including his bowman breaking his arm 
>> while aloft, which were all forgotten when the keel was unveiled.  Liberty 
>> was a slower boat and Conners was challenged to defend the cup with his 
>> superior crew but inferior boat.  Years later, Conners won the preliminary 
>> Cup races, and then switched to a faster boat.  I think it was Young 
>> America.  
>> 
>> Later, Hunter and Catalina produced many production boats with short winged 
>> keels.  The Rob Ball winged keel of the 1988 to 1995 vintage has much 
>> thicker wings and the PHRF ratings prove better performance.  He managed to 
>> get the weight very low without increasing the displacement very much.
>> 
>> 
>> Chuck
>> Resolute
>> 1990 C&C 34R
>> Broad Creek, Magothy River, Md
>> 
>> From: "John Pennie via CnC-List" 
>> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
>> Cc: "John Pennie" 
>> Sent: Sunday, May 1, 2016 12:03:43 PM
>> Subject: Re: Stus-List Wing Keel Lift?
>> 
>> Your dates are right but I don’t believe there was any magic to the wing 
>> keel - other than a way around the 12 meter measurement rule,  I believe 
>> they referred to them as winglets.  The also used a film on top of the keel 
>> called “riblets”- really.
>> 
>> John
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On May 1, 2016, at 11:35 AM, robert via CnC-List  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> The America's Cup left the NYYC in 1983 but I believe Dennis Conner won it 
>> back in Perth, Aus, in 1987.   
>> 
>> So, correct, it did not return to New York City but I am confident the 
>> Americans won it back with an even different keel..I have a book 
>> somewhere on the keel he used in Perth..it's like a fin keel with an 
>> extension that goes back.there a name for it.they kept it under raps 
>> until after the races.  I'll look it up later.
>> 
>> Conner's tested it in Hawaii before bringing it to Perth..it worked.
>> 
>> Rob Abbott
>> AZURA
>> C&C 32 -84 
>> Halifax, N.S.
>> 
>> On 2016-04-30 4:27 PM, Jerome Tauber via CnC-List wrote:
>> (Sorry - first posted this as reply to wrong posting).   Keel lift is a 
>> horizontal, not vertical force.   Keels are hydrodynamic foils - when they 
>> are moved through water they cause both lift and drag forces to develop. 
>> Lift is the positive lateral force that allows a boat to move to windward - 
>> drag is the negative, resisting force.  A good sailboat keel design has a 
>> high lift-to-drag ratio.  Wing keels were developed by the Australians to 
>> win the 1983 America's Cup (first U.S. loss) by getting around the keel 
>> depth rules.  When the boat heels, the wings increase the draft of the keel 
>> creating additional lift.   This being said, I'm sure the angle at which the 
>> wing cuts into the water does have an effect but that is not what is meant 
>> by keel lift.   The America's Cup left NY in 1983 never to return but this 
>> May there will be some preliminary cup races in NY Harbor with boats that 
>> truly do lift out of the water.Jerry
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Lorne Serpa via CnC-List 
>> To: cnc-list 
>> Cc: Lorne Serpa 
>> Sent: Sat, Apr 30, 2016 2:47 pm
>> Subject: Stus-List Wing Keel Lift?
>> 
>> So, working on buying my 1st sailboat greater than 15'.  It's a 1988 30MkII.
>> It has a wing keel.  I read somewhere that a wing keel generates some lift.
>> So
>> Does a wing keel create lift?
>> Should I have more heavy stuff at the back of the boat for increased angle 
>> of attack on the keel?
>> Or..
>> don't be silly.. its a 8,000lb boat going 5 knots.It 
>> does nothing.
>>  
>> Lorne
>> ___

Re: Stus-List Australian Cup Wing Keel

[John Pennie via CnC-List]

Had to google it.  It was a 4th Stars & Stripes (87).  Had to google it but I 
believe the boat you’re thinking of is Tom Blackaller’s Heart of America.

John

> On May 1, 2016, at 1:16 PM, John Pennie via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> Actually I thought Young America was the boat with the forward rudder. old 
> age is terrible as I can’t recall the skipper’s name - very famous and 
> talented fellow.  Conners went with a 2nd Stars & Stripes.
> 
> John
> 
>> On May 1, 2016, at 12:37 PM, Chuck S via CnC-List > > wrote:
>> 
>> Agree, 
>> John Bertrand wrote a book that described the design process of the 
>> Australian winged keel, the controversy around it, and he stated the keel 
>> was chosen to get more sail area within the rule, and the hull was very fast 
>> and another keel might have improved it further.  That keel was weird, long 
>> along the bottom and narrow where it met the hull.  Bertrand did a Herculean 
>> job overcoming several breakdowns including his bowman breaking his arm 
>> while aloft, which were all forgotten when the keel was unveiled.  Liberty 
>> was a slower boat and Conners was challenged to defend the cup with his 
>> superior crew but inferior boat.  Years later, Conners won the preliminary 
>> Cup races, and then switched to a faster boat.  I think it was Young 
>> America.  
>> 
>> Later, Hunter and Catalina produced many production boats with short winged 
>> keels.  The Rob Ball winged keel of the 1988 to 1995 vintage has much 
>> thicker wings and the PHRF ratings prove better performance.  He managed to 
>> get the weight very low without increasing the displacement very much.
>> 
>> 
>> Chuck
>> Resolute
>> 1990 C&C 34R
>> Broad Creek, Magothy River, Md
>> 
>> From: "John Pennie via CnC-List" > >
>> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
>> Cc: "John Pennie" 
>> Sent: Sunday, May 1, 2016 12:03:43 PM
>> Subject: Re: Stus-List Wing Keel Lift?
>> 
>> Your dates are right but I don’t believe there was any magic to the wing 
>> keel - other than a way around the 12 meter measurement rule,  I believe 
>> they referred to them as winglets.  The also used a film on top of the keel 
>> called “riblets”- really.
>> 
>> John
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On May 1, 2016, at 11:35 AM, robert via CnC-List > > wrote:
>> 
>> The America's Cup left the NYYC in 1983 but I believe Dennis Conner won it 
>> back in Perth, Aus, in 1987.   
>> 
>> So, correct, it did not return to New York City but I am confident the 
>> Americans won it back with an even different keel..I have a book 
>> somewhere on the keel he used in Perth..it's like a fin keel with an 
>> extension that goes back.there a name for it.they kept it under raps 
>> until after the races.  I'll look it up later.
>> 
>> Conner's tested it in Hawaii before bringing it to Perth..it worked.
>> 
>> Rob Abbott
>> AZURA
>> C&C 32 -84 
>> Halifax, N.S.
>> 
>> On 2016-04-30 4:27 PM, Jerome Tauber via CnC-List wrote:
>> (Sorry - first posted this as reply to wrong posting).   Keel lift is a 
>> horizontal, not vertical force.   Keels are hydrodynamic foils - when they 
>> are moved through water they cause both lift and drag forces to develop. 
>> Lift is the positive lateral force that allows a boat to move to windward - 
>> drag is the negative, resisting force.  A good sailboat keel design has a 
>> high lift-to-drag ratio.  Wing keels were developed by the Australians to 
>> win the 1983 America's Cup (first U.S. loss) by getting around the keel 
>> depth rules.  When the boat heels, the wings increase the draft of the keel 
>> creating additional lift.   This being said, I'm sure the angle at which the 
>> wing cuts into the water does have an effect but that is not what is meant 
>> by keel lift.   The America's Cup left NY in 1983 never to return but this 
>> May there will be some preliminary cup races in NY Harbor with boats that 
>> truly do lift out of the water.Jerry
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Lorne Serpa via CnC-List  
>> 
>> To: cnc-list  
>> Cc: Lorne Serpa  
>> Sent: Sat, Apr 30, 2016 2:47 pm
>> Subject: Stus-List Wing Keel Lift?
>> 
>> So, working on buying my 1st sailboat greater than 15'.  It's a 1988 30MkII.
>> It has a wing keel.  I read somewhere that a wing keel generates some lift.
>> So
>> Does a wing keel create lift?
>> Should I have more heavy stuff at the back of the boat for increased angle 
>> of attack on the keel?
>> Or..
>> don't be silly.. its a 8,000lb boat going 5 knots.  It does nothing.
>>  
>> Lorne
>> ___
>> 
>> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
>> what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions 
>> are greatly appreciated!
>> 
>> 
>> __

Re: Stus-List Australian Cup Wing Keel

[John Pennie via CnC-List]

Actually I thought Young America was the boat with the forward rudder. old age 
is terrible as I can’t recall the skipper’s name - very famous and talented 
fellow.  Conners went with a 2nd Stars & Stripes.

John

> On May 1, 2016, at 12:37 PM, Chuck S via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> Agree, 
> John Bertrand wrote a book that described the design process of the 
> Australian winged keel, the controversy around it, and he stated the keel was 
> chosen to get more sail area within the rule, and the hull was very fast and 
> another keel might have improved it further.  That keel was weird, long along 
> the bottom and narrow where it met the hull.  Bertrand did a Herculean job 
> overcoming several breakdowns including his bowman breaking his arm while 
> aloft, which were all forgotten when the keel was unveiled.  Liberty was a 
> slower boat and Conners was challenged to defend the cup with his superior 
> crew but inferior boat.  Years later, Conners won the preliminary Cup races, 
> and then switched to a faster boat.  I think it was Young America.  
> 
> Later, Hunter and Catalina produced many production boats with short winged 
> keels.  The Rob Ball winged keel of the 1988 to 1995 vintage has much thicker 
> wings and the PHRF ratings prove better performance.  He managed to get the 
> weight very low without increasing the displacement very much.
> 
> 
> Chuck
> Resolute
> 1990 C&C 34R
> Broad Creek, Magothy River, Md
> 
> From: "John Pennie via CnC-List" 
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Cc: "John Pennie" 
> Sent: Sunday, May 1, 2016 12:03:43 PM
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Wing Keel Lift?
> 
> Your dates are right but I don’t believe there was any magic to the wing keel 
> - other than a way around the 12 meter measurement rule,  I believe they 
> referred to them as winglets.  The also used a film on top of the keel called 
> “riblets”- really.
> 
> John
> 
> 
> 
> On May 1, 2016, at 11:35 AM, robert via CnC-List  > wrote:
> 
> The America's Cup left the NYYC in 1983 but I believe Dennis Conner won it 
> back in Perth, Aus, in 1987.   
> 
> So, correct, it did not return to New York City but I am confident the 
> Americans won it back with an even different keel..I have a book 
> somewhere on the keel he used in Perth..it's like a fin keel with an 
> extension that goes back.there a name for it.they kept it under raps 
> until after the races.  I'll look it up later.
> 
> Conner's tested it in Hawaii before bringing it to Perth..it worked.
> 
> Rob Abbott
> AZURA
> C&C 32 -84 
> Halifax, N.S.
> 
> On 2016-04-30 4:27 PM, Jerome Tauber via CnC-List wrote:
> (Sorry - first posted this as reply to wrong posting).   Keel lift is a 
> horizontal, not vertical force.   Keels are hydrodynamic foils - when they 
> are moved through water they cause both lift and drag forces to develop. Lift 
> is the positive lateral force that allows a boat to move to windward - drag 
> is the negative, resisting force.  A good sailboat keel design has a high 
> lift-to-drag ratio.  Wing keels were developed by the Australians to win the 
> 1983 America's Cup (first U.S. loss) by getting around the keel depth rules.  
> When the boat heels, the wings increase the draft of the keel creating 
> additional lift.   This being said, I'm sure the angle at which the wing cuts 
> into the water does have an effect but that is not what is meant by keel 
> lift.   The America's Cup left NY in 1983 never to return but this May there 
> will be some preliminary cup races in NY Harbor with boats that truly do lift 
> out of the water.Jerry
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Lorne Serpa via CnC-List  
> 
> To: cnc-list  
> Cc: Lorne Serpa  
> Sent: Sat, Apr 30, 2016 2:47 pm
> Subject: Stus-List Wing Keel Lift?
> 
> So, working on buying my 1st sailboat greater than 15'.  It's a 1988 30MkII.
> It has a wing keel.  I read somewhere that a wing keel generates some lift.
> So
> Does a wing keel create lift?
> Should I have more heavy stuff at the back of the boat for increased angle of 
> attack on the keel?
> Or..
> don't be silly.. its a 8,000lb boat going 5 knots.  It does nothing.
>  
> Lorne
> ___
> 
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
> what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions 
> are greatly appreciated!
> 
> 
> ___
> 
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
> what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions 
> are greatly appreciated!
> 
> ___
> 
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
> what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions 
> are great

Re: Stus-List Australian Cup Wing Keel

[John Pennie via CnC-List]

I was at a presentation many years ago where they spoke about Liberty.  
Apparently she had a list from day one which they had to compensate for with 
ballast.  Liberty ended up being a heavier boat with less sail area than 
Australia II.  Really not a fair fight.  The fact it went to seven races is a 
testament to Conners and team’s mastery (and protest skills).  It did prove to 
be the wake up call the America’s Cup needed however.  Agree it was a funky 
looking keel but suspect it was all about getting the weight low.

Interesting period with some of the most beautiful boats ever designed imho.  
87 was great fun to watch.

John

> On May 1, 2016, at 12:37 PM, Chuck S via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> Agree, 
> John Bertrand wrote a book that described the design process of the 
> Australian winged keel, the controversy around it, and he stated the keel was 
> chosen to get more sail area within the rule, and the hull was very fast and 
> another keel might have improved it further.  That keel was weird, long along 
> the bottom and narrow where it met the hull.  Bertrand did a Herculean job 
> overcoming several breakdowns including his bowman breaking his arm while 
> aloft, which were all forgotten when the keel was unveiled.  Liberty was a 
> slower boat and Conners was challenged to defend the cup with his superior 
> crew but inferior boat.  Years later, Conners won the preliminary Cup races, 
> and then switched to a faster boat.  I think it was Young America.  
> 
> Later, Hunter and Catalina produced many production boats with short winged 
> keels.  The Rob Ball winged keel of the 1988 to 1995 vintage has much thicker 
> wings and the PHRF ratings prove better performance.  He managed to get the 
> weight very low without increasing the displacement very much.
> 
> 
> Chuck
> Resolute
> 1990 C&C 34R
> Broad Creek, Magothy River, Md
> 
> From: "John Pennie via CnC-List" 
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Cc: "John Pennie" 
> Sent: Sunday, May 1, 2016 12:03:43 PM
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Wing Keel Lift?
> 
> Your dates are right but I don’t believe there was any magic to the wing keel 
> - other than a way around the 12 meter measurement rule,  I believe they 
> referred to them as winglets.  The also used a film on top of the keel called 
> “riblets”- really.
> 
> John
> 
> 
> 
> On May 1, 2016, at 11:35 AM, robert via CnC-List  > wrote:
> 
> The America's Cup left the NYYC in 1983 but I believe Dennis Conner won it 
> back in Perth, Aus, in 1987.   
> 
> So, correct, it did not return to New York City but I am confident the 
> Americans won it back with an even different keel..I have a book 
> somewhere on the keel he used in Perth..it's like a fin keel with an 
> extension that goes back.there a name for it.they kept it under raps 
> until after the races.  I'll look it up later.
> 
> Conner's tested it in Hawaii before bringing it to Perth..it worked.
> 
> Rob Abbott
> AZURA
> C&C 32 -84 
> Halifax, N.S.
> 
> On 2016-04-30 4:27 PM, Jerome Tauber via CnC-List wrote:
> (Sorry - first posted this as reply to wrong posting).   Keel lift is a 
> horizontal, not vertical force.   Keels are hydrodynamic foils - when they 
> are moved through water they cause both lift and drag forces to develop. Lift 
> is the positive lateral force that allows a boat to move to windward - drag 
> is the negative, resisting force.  A good sailboat keel design has a high 
> lift-to-drag ratio.  Wing keels were developed by the Australians to win the 
> 1983 America's Cup (first U.S. loss) by getting around the keel depth rules.  
> When the boat heels, the wings increase the draft of the keel creating 
> additional lift.   This being said, I'm sure the angle at which the wing cuts 
> into the water does have an effect but that is not what is meant by keel 
> lift.   The America's Cup left NY in 1983 never to return but this May there 
> will be some preliminary cup races in NY Harbor with boats that truly do lift 
> out of the water.Jerry
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Lorne Serpa via CnC-List  
> 
> To: cnc-list  
> Cc: Lorne Serpa  
> Sent: Sat, Apr 30, 2016 2:47 pm
> Subject: Stus-List Wing Keel Lift?
> 
> So, working on buying my 1st sailboat greater than 15'.  It's a 1988 30MkII.
> It has a wing keel.  I read somewhere that a wing keel generates some lift.
> So
> Does a wing keel create lift?
> Should I have more heavy stuff at the back of the boat for increased angle of 
> attack on the keel?
> Or..
> don't be silly.. its a 8,000lb boat going 5 knots.  It does nothing.
>  
> Lorne
> ___
> 
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
> what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions 
> are greatly appreciated!
> 
> 
>