Re: Stus-List Mixed batteries
On rereading the rant, I disagree with one point: The ranter attempts to score a point by noting that the EchoCharge never stops providing charge current to the auxiliary battery. That voltage is about 13.0 volts, a perfectly sustainable long-term charge voltage and a very useful one as it then carries the electrical load of the engine while it is running; pumps, tachometer, lights etc. If this were not the case, the start battery would be gradually depleted until the EchoCharge decided it needed charging, and at what voltage would that be set? Automobiles are fine examples of how starting batteries are used. They start the car and, once the engine is running, they carry the entire electrical load and the starter battery simply recharges and rides around until it is needed for the next start. I have posted my diagram and a discussion to http://www.sailpower.ca/pleasure-boat-primary-wiring/ Rich Knowles INDIGO LF38 Halifax, NS. On May 5, 2014, at 20:12, Wally Bryant via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: Yeah, I read it and agree with all points. I just thought it was intuitively obvious, but then again most manuals say things like to avoid electrocution, don't connect this equipment on a live circuit VBG so he probably has a point. You wrote: The rant is just that. A rant. Nothing is really wrong, it's just that Xantrex assumes we are not all ignorant. ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Mixed batteries
I was too busy with a CRYC board meeting to get a wiring diagram done, so here is the Blue Sea version. http://content.www.bluesea.com.s3.amazonaws.com/images/reference/battery_management_wiring_schematics/2batt_1eng.png This is basically what I have. Blue Sea makes a number of battery management panels that are nice if you don't feel like making your own. There are always a few on FleaBay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Blue-Sea-Parallel-Circuit-Mini-Battery-Switch-Panel-8280-/251514236381?pt=Boat_Parts_Accessories_Gearhash=item3a8f6aadddvxp=mtr#ht_2256wt_1073 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Blue-Sea-8686-Panel-Dc-Battery-Management-/281325735773?pt=Boat_Parts_Accessories_Gearhash=item4180520f5dvxp=mtr#ht_3122wt_1073 Joe Della Barba Coquina ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Mixed batteries
And if anyone’s interested, I’ve got a spare Blue Sea 8280 panel I’d sell you for a very reasonable price. Fred Street -- Minneapolis S/V Oceanis (1979 CC Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI :^( On May 6, 2014, at 6:52 AM, Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: I was too busy with a CRYC board meeting to get a wiring diagram done, so here is the Blue Sea version. http://content.www.bluesea.com.s3.amazonaws.com/images/reference/battery_management_wiring_schematics/2batt_1eng.png This is basically what I have. Blue Sea makes a number of battery management panels that are nice if you don't feel like making your own. There are always a few on FleaBay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Blue-Sea-Parallel-Circuit-Mini-Battery-Switch-Panel-8280-/251514236381?pt=Boat_Parts_Accessories_Gearhash=item3a8f6aadddvxp=mtr#ht_2256wt_1073 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Blue-Sea-8686-Panel-Dc-Battery-Management-/281325735773?pt=Boat_Parts_Accessories_Gearhash=item4180520f5dvxp=mtr#ht_3122wt_1073 Joe Della Barba Coquina ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Mixed batteries
…and that price is….? All the best, Edd Edd M. Schillay Starship Enterprise CC 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B City Island, NY Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log On May 6, 2014, at 9:53 AM, Frederick G Street via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: And if anyone’s interested, I’ve got a spare Blue Sea 8280 panel I’d sell you for a very reasonable price. Fred Street -- Minneapolis S/V Oceanis (1979 CC Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI :^( On May 6, 2014, at 6:52 AM, Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: I was too busy with a CRYC board meeting to get a wiring diagram done, so here is the Blue Sea version. http://content.www.bluesea.com.s3.amazonaws.com/images/reference/battery_management_wiring_schematics/2batt_1eng.png This is basically what I have. Blue Sea makes a number of battery management panels that are nice if you don't feel like making your own. There are always a few on FleaBay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Blue-Sea-Parallel-Circuit-Mini-Battery-Switch-Panel-8280-/251514236381?pt=Boat_Parts_Accessories_Gearhash=item3a8f6aadddvxp=mtr#ht_2256wt_1073 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Blue-Sea-8686-Panel-Dc-Battery-Management-/281325735773?pt=Boat_Parts_Accessories_Gearhash=item4180520f5dvxp=mtr#ht_3122wt_1073 Joe Della Barba Coquina ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Mixed batteries
Two choices: 1. Buy a cheap small charger for the house battery. 2. Sacrifice the long term well-being of the cheap wet-cell starting battery and set your charging parameters for the expensive AGM house bank. AGM voltages are close enough that the start battery lifespan will likely be pretty close to optimal anyway. Here is an example start-bank charger (http://www.ebay.com/itm/ProMariner-ProSport-Gen-2-6-12v-Boat-Battery-Charger-1-Bank-Waterproof-/161291965003?pt=Boat_Parts_Accessories_Gearvxp=mtrhash=item258dc0124b#ht_3309wt_1366) Joe Della Barba Coquina CC 35 MK I From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of via CnC-List Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 9:48 AM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Stus-List Mixed batteries In a pinch, I recently bought a 'starting' battery (Group 27) per my earlier post (no marine stores open after 6 on Saturdays) Then I decided to get a replacement for my dead Lifeline AGM battery. Of course, Murphy lurking about, I realized that my Zantrex Truecharge 40 wants all the batteries it charges to be the same since its charging schemes apply to all three outputs to the batteries. Before I pull the 'rope-a-dope' of returning the starting battery, I need some list advice: A lot of sailors suggest using a 'starting' battery exclusively for starting and using the house batteries for the house. I am aware that an AGM can be used for starting as well. However, if a 'starting' battery is better for this job (CCA, etc.) and the AGM is better for its job, how does one use a single charger like mine to satisfy different charging schemes? 2 chargers, a smarter charger that has outputs for different battery characteristics, or 'forgetaboutit and charge both batteries as though the were both AGMs? Charlie Nelson Water Phantom CC 36 XL/kcb cenel...@aol.commailto:cenel...@aol.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Mixed batteries
Use an echo charger to charge the starting battery, and the Xantrex for the house bank. http://www.xantrex.com/power-products/power-accessories/auxiliary-battery-charger.aspx From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of via CnC-List Sent: May 5, 2014 9:48 AM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Stus-List Mixed batteries In a pinch, I recently bought a 'starting' battery (Group 27) per my earlier post (no marine stores open after 6 on Saturdays) Then I decided to get a replacement for my dead Lifeline AGM battery. Of course, Murphy lurking about, I realized that my Zantrex Truecharge 40 wants all the batteries it charges to be the same since its charging schemes apply to all three outputs to the batteries. Before I pull the 'rope-a-dope' of returning the starting battery, I need some list advice: A lot of sailors suggest using a 'starting' battery exclusively for starting and using the house batteries for the house. I am aware that an AGM can be used for starting as well. However, if a 'starting' battery is better for this job (CCA, etc.) and the AGM is better for its job, how does one use a single charger like mine to satisfy different charging schemes? 2 chargers, a smarter charger that has outputs for different battery characteristics, or 'forgetaboutit and charge both batteries as though the were both AGMs? Charlie Nelson Water Phantom CC 36 XL/kcb cenel...@aol.commailto:cenel...@aol.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Mixed batteries
Charlie, You would need both a smart charger and a smart regulator. Stick to one kind. You can buy a lot of batteries for the price of all that! Joel 35/3 Annapolis On Mon, May 5, 2014 at 9:47 AM, via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: In a pinch, I recently bought a 'starting' battery (Group 27) per my earlier post (no marine stores open after 6 on Saturdays) Then I decided to get a replacement for my dead Lifeline AGM battery. Of course, Murphy lurking about, I realized that my Zantrex Truecharge 40 wants all the batteries it charges to be the same since its charging schemes apply to all three outputs to the batteries. Before I pull the 'rope-a-dope' of returning the starting battery, I need some list advice: A lot of sailors suggest using a 'starting' battery exclusively for starting and using the house batteries for the house. I am aware that an AGM can be used for starting as well. However, if a 'starting' battery is better for this job (CCA, etc.) and the AGM is better for its job, how does one use a single charger like mine to satisfy different charging schemes? 2 chargers, a smarter charger that has outputs for different battery characteristics, or 'forgetaboutit and charge both batteries as though the were both AGMs? Charlie Nelson Water Phantom CC 36 XL/kcb cenel...@aol.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com -- Joel 301 541 8551 ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Mixed batteries
The best method I have found and the least problematic from all points of view is to have a dedicated starting battery that does nothing else but start the engine, and a house battery that can be several batteries in parallel. Ideally the house batteries will all be identical. I feed the alternator directly to the house battery and use a device such as a Xantrex EchoCharge, a small regulator, to keep the start battery charged. A simple 1/both/2 off switch feeds the house load from either battery and acts as a combiner switch if needed. I have a diagram I can send you if you wish. I have wired many boats this way with no complaints or incidents. Rich Knowles Indigo. LF38 Halifax. NS On May 5, 2014, at 10:47, via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: In a pinch, I recently bought a 'starting' battery (Group 27) per my earlier post (no marine stores open after 6 on Saturdays) Then I decided to get a replacement for my dead Lifeline AGM battery. Of course, Murphy lurking about, I realized that my Zantrex Truecharge 40 wants all the batteries it charges to be the same since its charging schemes apply to all three outputs to the batteries. Before I pull the 'rope-a-dope' of returning the starting battery, I need some list advice: A lot of sailors suggest using a 'starting' battery exclusively for starting and using the house batteries for the house. I am aware that an AGM can be used for starting as well. However, if a 'starting' battery is better for this job (CCA, etc.) and the AGM is better for its job, how does one use a single charger like mine to satisfy different charging schemes? 2 chargers, a smarter charger that has outputs for different battery characteristics, or 'forgetaboutit and charge both batteries as though the were both AGMs? Charlie Nelson Water Phantom CC 36 XL/kcb cenel...@aol.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Mixed batteries
I would just charge the wet cell as an AGM - very similar parameters anyway. It won’t live as long but it’s not exactly the biggest investment you’ll ever make. On the AGM, look for one labeled “dual purpose”. These are designed for the life and cycles of a deep discharge but offer near the CCA of a starting battery. Most marine AGMs are dual purpose. The catalog will list both CCA and reserve in Ah. John On May 5, 2014, at 10:07 AM, Joel Aronson via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: Charlie, You would need both a smart charger and a smart regulator. Stick to one kind. You can buy a lot of batteries for the price of all that! Joel 35/3 Annapolis On Mon, May 5, 2014 at 9:47 AM, via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: In a pinch, I recently bought a 'starting' battery (Group 27) per my earlier post (no marine stores open after 6 on Saturdays) Then I decided to get a replacement for my dead Lifeline AGM battery. Of course, Murphy lurking about, I realized that my Zantrex Truecharge 40 wants all the batteries it charges to be the same since its charging schemes apply to all three outputs to the batteries. Before I pull the 'rope-a-dope' of returning the starting battery, I need some list advice: A lot of sailors suggest using a 'starting' battery exclusively for starting and using the house batteries for the house. I am aware that an AGM can be used for starting as well. However, if a 'starting' battery is better for this job (CCA, etc.) and the AGM is better for its job, how does one use a single charger like mine to satisfy different charging schemes? 2 chargers, a smarter charger that has outputs for different battery characteristics, or 'forgetaboutit and charge both batteries as though the were both AGMs? Charlie Nelson Water Phantom CC 36 XL/kcb cenel...@aol.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com -- Joel 301 541 8551 ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Mixed batteries
Also: the AC charger, and any other charging devices such as wind or solar, are connected to the house bank in the same manner as the alternator, and will charge all batteries as needed. Rich On May 5, 2014, at 11:38, Rich Knowles via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: The best method I have found and the least problematic from all points of view is to have a dedicated starting battery that does nothing else but start the engine, and a house battery that can be several batteries in parallel. Ideally the house batteries will all be identical. I feed the alternator directly to the house battery and use a device such as a Xantrex EchoCharge, a small regulator, to keep the start battery charged. A simple 1/both/2 off switch feeds the house load from either battery and acts as a combiner switch if needed. I have a diagram I can send you if you wish. I have wired many boats this way with no complaints or incidents. Rich Knowles Indigo. LF38 Halifax. NS On May 5, 2014, at 10:47, via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: In a pinch, I recently bought a 'starting' battery (Group 27) per my earlier post (no marine stores open after 6 on Saturdays) Then I decided to get a replacement for my dead Lifeline AGM battery. Of course, Murphy lurking about, I realized that my Zantrex Truecharge 40 wants all the batteries it charges to be the same since its charging schemes apply to all three outputs to the batteries. Before I pull the 'rope-a-dope' of returning the starting battery, I need some list advice: A lot of sailors suggest using a 'starting' battery exclusively for starting and using the house batteries for the house. I am aware that an AGM can be used for starting as well. However, if a 'starting' battery is better for this job (CCA, etc.) and the AGM is better for its job, how does one use a single charger like mine to satisfy different charging schemes? 2 chargers, a smarter charger that has outputs for different battery characteristics, or 'forgetaboutit and charge both batteries as though the were both AGMs? Charlie Nelson Water Phantom CC 36 XL/kcb cenel...@aol.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Mixed batteries
Rich, Please do send around a diagram. I’m planning to do something similar — a 27 starting battery (as battery #2) and a 31 house bank (as battery#1). When I want to start and run the engine, I will do so on ALL. That way the alternator will charge both batteries. When sailing and “hanging out”, I would switch to 1 only. I have a solar panel and a dual battery regulator, which would connect to both. Two weeks to launch and still much to do….. All the best, Edd Edd M. Schillay Starship Enterprise CC 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B City Island, NY Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log On May 5, 2014, at 10:38 AM, Rich Knowles via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: The best method I have found and the least problematic from all points of view is to have a dedicated starting battery that does nothing else but start the engine, and a house battery that can be several batteries in parallel. Ideally the house batteries will all be identical. I feed the alternator directly to the house battery and use a device such as a Xantrex EchoCharge, a small regulator, to keep the start battery charged. A simple 1/both/2 off switch feeds the house load from either battery and acts as a combiner switch if needed. I have a diagram I can send you if you wish. I have wired many boats this way with no complaints or incidents. Rich Knowles Indigo. LF38 Halifax. NS On May 5, 2014, at 10:47, via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: In a pinch, I recently bought a 'starting' battery (Group 27) per my earlier post (no marine stores open after 6 on Saturdays) Then I decided to get a replacement for my dead Lifeline AGM battery. Of course, Murphy lurking about, I realized that my Zantrex Truecharge 40 wants all the batteries it charges to be the same since its charging schemes apply to all three outputs to the batteries. Before I pull the 'rope-a-dope' of returning the starting battery, I need some list advice: A lot of sailors suggest using a 'starting' battery exclusively for starting and using the house batteries for the house. I am aware that an AGM can be used for starting as well. However, if a 'starting' battery is better for this job (CCA, etc.) and the AGM is better for its job, how does one use a single charger like mine to satisfy different charging schemes? 2 chargers, a smarter charger that has outputs for different battery characteristics, or 'forgetaboutit and charge both batteries as though the were both AGMs? Charlie Nelson Water Phantom CC 36 XL/kcb cenel...@aol.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Mixed batteries
Rich Please e mail schematic. Thanks Frank LF 38 Annapolis Sent from my iPhone On May 5, 2014, at 10:38 AM, Rich Knowles via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: The best method I have found and the least problematic from all points of view is to have a dedicated starting battery that does nothing else but start the engine, and a house battery that can be several batteries in parallel. Ideally the house batteries will all be identical. I feed the alternator directly to the house battery and use a device such as a Xantrex EchoCharge, a small regulator, to keep the start battery charged. A simple 1/both/2 off switch feeds the house load from either battery and acts as a combiner switch if needed. I have a diagram I can send you if you wish. I have wired many boats this way with no complaints or incidents. Rich Knowles Indigo. LF38 Halifax. NS On May 5, 2014, at 10:47, via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: In a pinch, I recently bought a 'starting' battery (Group 27) per my earlier post (no marine stores open after 6 on Saturdays) Then I decided to get a replacement for my dead Lifeline AGM battery. Of course, Murphy lurking about, I realized that my Zantrex Truecharge 40 wants all the batteries it charges to be the same since its charging schemes apply to all three outputs to the batteries. Before I pull the 'rope-a-dope' of returning the starting battery, I need some list advice: A lot of sailors suggest using a 'starting' battery exclusively for starting and using the house batteries for the house. I am aware that an AGM can be used for starting as well. However, if a 'starting' battery is better for this job (CCA, etc.) and the AGM is better for its job, how does one use a single charger like mine to satisfy different charging schemes? 2 chargers, a smarter charger that has outputs for different battery characteristics, or 'forgetaboutit and charge both batteries as though the were both AGMs? Charlie Nelson Water Phantom CC 36 XL/kcb cenel...@aol.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Mixed batteries
Richwrote: I feed the alternator directly to the house battery and use a device such as a Xantrex EchoCharge, a small regulator, to keep the start battery charged. That's how I wired mine. It works fine with both the alternator and battery charger. Wal -- s/v Stella Blue www.wbryant.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Mixed batteries
Rich, is the relay via a the regulator to the start battery only in the case you have different type or size of battery or is there any advantage to add it with two lead-acid size 31, or any same size/type ? My alternator is wired to both 31 as my Guest chargepro 10 amp. Don't know if it adust output for each batt depending on state of charge. I always start on 1 and then use 2 for instruments/house. Charging the two together without regulator, Am i toasting one battery here ? I do have an isolator combiner. I'm on a slip so shore power is available. no solar Thanks. Bruno Lachance Becassine 33 mk II 87 Qc. Date: Mon, 5 May 2014 15:17:01 + To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Mixed batteries From: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Richwrote: I feed the alternator directly to the house battery and use a device such as a Xantrex EchoCharge, a small regulator, to keep the start battery charged. That's how I wired mine. It works fine with both the alternator and battery charger. Wal -- s/v Stella Blue www.wbryant.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Mixed batteries
Hi Bruno. I sent you the diagram. There is no need to charge both batteries from the alternator or shore power charger with my suggested setup. If the starter battery needs charging, the EchoCharge takes care of it. Also, you don’t have to switch anything other than turning the battery switch to battery 1, the house bank. You will note that battery 2 is always connected directly to the starter. Rich On May 5, 2014, at 13:29, Bruno Lachance via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: Rich, is the relay via a the regulator to the start battery only in the case you have different type or size of battery or is there any advantage to add it with two lead-acid size 31, or any same size/type ? My alternator is wired to both 31 as my Guest chargepro 10 amp. Don't know if it adust output for each batt depending on state of charge. I always start on 1 and then use 2 for instruments/house. Charging the two together without regulator, Am i toasting one battery here ? I do have an isolator combiner. I'm on a slip so shore power is available. no solar Thanks. Bruno Lachance Becassine 33 mk II 87 Qc. Date: Mon, 5 May 2014 15:17:01 + To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Mixed batteries From: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Richwrote: I feed the alternator directly to the house battery and use a device such as a Xantrex EchoCharge, a small regulator, to keep the start battery charged. That's how I wired mine. It works fine with both the alternator and battery charger. Wal -- s/v Stella Blue www.wbryant.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Mixed batteries
Edd, I don’t want to start a discussion on how to charge the batteries (as this would be off topic), but starting from the ALL position has some major disadvantages. One is that you might be hiding a problem with your starting battery; two is that if one battery is weak, you would be charging that weak battery from the strong one (you risk that if one is nearly dead, the other would not start the engine, either, but instead would discharge to equalise the voltage with the weak one). No question (in my mind), the best way is to start from the starting battery (hence the name) and have the echo charger making sure that both batteries are charged properly. Some advocate to have the batteries split into “main” and “spare”. Many good marine batteries can be used as dual purpose. If you design your system this way, you start on the “main”, it gets charged by the alternator and the echo charger maintains the “spare”. If I remember correctly, you have a solar system, as well. Many charge controllers have a dual battery option and they can be setup to charge the “main” battery first and then charge the “spare” (mine has a selectable 50/50 or 90/10 split). If you are interested, you can check some of Main Sail’s articles on that topic at Sailboat Owners or at his web site (http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/). Marek (in Ottawa) PS. Would “may the Force (May the 4th) be with you” apply, even if it is a day late? I know it is mixing the references... From: Edd Schillay via CnC-List Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 10:58 AM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Mixed batteries Rich, Please do send around a diagram. I’m planning to do something similar — a 27 starting battery (as battery #2) and a 31 house bank (as battery#1). When I want to start and run the engine, I will do so on ALL. That way the alternator will charge both batteries. When sailing and “hanging out”, I would switch to 1 only. I have a solar panel and a dual battery regulator, which would connect to both. Two weeks to launch and still much to do….. All the best, Edd Edd M. Schillay Starship Enterprise CC 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B City Island, NY Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log On May 5, 2014, at 10:38 AM, Rich Knowles via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: The best method I have found and the least problematic from all points of view is to have a dedicated starting battery that does nothing else but start the engine, and a house battery that can be several batteries in parallel. Ideally the house batteries will all be identical. I feed the alternator directly to the house battery and use a device such as a Xantrex EchoCharge, a small regulator, to keep the start battery charged. A simple 1/both/2 off switch feeds the house load from either battery and acts as a combiner switch if needed. I have a diagram I can send you if you wish. I have wired many boats this way with no complaints or incidents. Rich Knowles Indigo. LF38 Halifax. NS On May 5, 2014, at 10:47, via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: In a pinch, I recently bought a 'starting' battery (Group 27) per my earlier post (no marine stores open after 6 on Saturdays) Then I decided to get a replacement for my dead Lifeline AGM battery. Of course, Murphy lurking about, I realized that my Zantrex Truecharge 40 wants all the batteries it charges to be the same since its charging schemes apply to all three outputs to the batteries. Before I pull the 'rope-a-dope' of returning the starting battery, I need some list advice: A lot of sailors suggest using a 'starting' battery exclusively for starting and using the house batteries for the house. I am aware that an AGM can be used for starting as well. However, if a 'starting' battery is better for this job (CCA, etc.) and the AGM is better for its job, how does one use a single charger like mine to satisfy different charging schemes? 2 chargers, a smarter charger that has outputs for different battery characteristics, or 'forgetaboutit and charge both batteries as though the were both AGMs? Charlie Nelson Water Phantom CC 36 XL/kcb cenel...@aol.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Mixed batteries
Marek, Very interesting. What exactly is an echo charger and how would I connect it? The previous owner had two house bank 31s and a starter battery hooked up parallel to one of them. That starter battery turned out to be dead and was dragging the other down. I replaced all with two new 31s about 4 years ago. Now one of those two is dead and I don’t feel like dumping $300 on a replacement when I’m not running on batteries for more than a few hours on any given day. All the best, Edd Edd M. Schillay Starship Enterprise CC 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B City Island, NY Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log On May 5, 2014, at 1:01 PM, Marek Dziedzic dziedzi...@hotmail.com wrote: Edd, I don’t want to start a discussion on how to charge the batteries (as this would be off topic), but starting from the ALL position has some major disadvantages. One is that you might be hiding a problem with your starting battery; two is that if one battery is weak, you would be charging that weak battery from the strong one (you risk that if one is nearly dead, the other would not start the engine, either, but instead would discharge to equalise the voltage with the weak one). No question (in my mind), the best way is to start from the starting battery (hence the name) and have the echo charger making sure that both batteries are charged properly. Some advocate to have the batteries split into “main” and “spare”. Many good marine batteries can be used as dual purpose. If you design your system this way, you start on the “main”, it gets charged by the alternator and the echo charger maintains the “spare”. If I remember correctly, you have a solar system, as well. Many charge controllers have a dual battery option and they can be setup to charge the “main” battery first and then charge the “spare” (mine has a selectable 50/50 or 90/10 split). If you are interested, you can check some of Main Sail’s articles on that topic at Sailboat Owners or at his web site (http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/). Marek (in Ottawa) PS. Would “may the Force (May the 4th) be with you” apply, even if it is a day late? I know it is mixing the references... From: Edd Schillay via CnC-List Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 10:58 AM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Mixed batteries Rich, Please do send around a diagram. I’m planning to do something similar — a 27 starting battery (as battery #2) and a 31 house bank (as battery#1). When I want to start and run the engine, I will do so on ALL. That way the alternator will charge both batteries. When sailing and “hanging out”, I would switch to 1 only. I have a solar panel and a dual battery regulator, which would connect to both. Two weeks to launch and still much to do….. All the best, Edd Edd M. Schillay Starship Enterprise CC 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B City Island, NY Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log On May 5, 2014, at 10:38 AM, Rich Knowles via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: The best method I have found and the least problematic from all points of view is to have a dedicated starting battery that does nothing else but start the engine, and a house battery that can be several batteries in parallel. Ideally the house batteries will all be identical. I feed the alternator directly to the house battery and use a device such as a Xantrex EchoCharge, a small regulator, to keep the start battery charged. A simple 1/both/2 off switch feeds the house load from either battery and acts as a combiner switch if needed. I have a diagram I can send you if you wish. I have wired many boats this way with no complaints or incidents. Rich Knowles Indigo. LF38 Halifax. NS On May 5, 2014, at 10:47, via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: In a pinch, I recently bought a 'starting' battery (Group 27) per my earlier post (no marine stores open after 6 on Saturdays) Then I decided to get a replacement for my dead Lifeline AGM battery. Of course, Murphy lurking about, I realized that my Zantrex Truecharge 40 wants all the batteries it charges to be the same since its charging schemes apply to all three outputs to the batteries. Before I pull the 'rope-a-dope' of returning the starting battery, I need some list advice: A lot of sailors suggest using a 'starting' battery exclusively for starting and using the house batteries for the house. I am aware that an AGM can be used for starting as well. However, if a 'starting' battery is better for this job (CCA, etc.) and the AGM is better for its job, how does one use a single charger like mine to satisfy different charging schemes? 2 chargers, a smarter charger that has outputs for different battery characteristics, or 'forgetaboutit and charge both batteries as though
Re: Stus-List Mixed batteries
Here's the manual. http://www.xantrex.com/documents/Accessories/Auxiliary-Battery-Charger/Echo-charge-OwnerGuide(445-0204-01-01).pdf if that's too long for your email http://tinyurl.com/pmbtquj Very interesting. What exactly is an echo charger and how would I connect it? ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Mixed batteries
Edd, I am far from being an expert on charging systems, so whatever I say here is based on my personal experience and what I have found from others. The echo charger is a Xantrex device (I bet that others make one like that, as well). WM sells it here: http://www.westmarine.com/triple-blocks/xantrex--echo-charge-battery-charger—333669; Defender here: http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|328|2289962|2289976id=93959 (for $10 less). It seems that it is a device that responds to exactly your issue – how to keep a starting battery charged and separated from the house without any overly complex (and costly) dual battery regulators. Apparently, there is a caveat with it. You may want to read that rant by Main Sail: http://www.sailnet.com/forums/electrical-systems/72295-xantrex-echo-charger-rant.html. There is nothing wrong with the device; only with the instruction manual that comes with it. Btw. Nothing is cheap (as usual with anything boat related). The Echo Charger sells for about $120. maybe I should not use the word “cheap”, because I think that this is a cheap insurance. But it is not necessarily a “low cost”. After all, you would be spending $120 plus installation, plus rewiring, plus some additional incidental costs in order to save a $100 battery or two. Btw 2. I bet that a few of our (CC List’s) electrical experts would have to say a word or two on the subject. Marek (in Ottawa). From: Edd Schillay via CnC-List Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 1:10 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Mixed batteries Marek, Very interesting. What exactly is an echo charger and how would I connect it? The previous owner had two house bank 31s and a starter battery hooked up parallel to one of them. That starter battery turned out to be dead and was dragging the other down. I replaced all with two new 31s about 4 years ago. Now one of those two is dead and I don’t feel like dumping $300 on a replacement when I’m not running on batteries for more than a few hours on any given day. All the best, Edd Edd M. Schillay Starship Enterprise CC 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B City Island, NY Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log On May 5, 2014, at 1:01 PM, Marek Dziedzic dziedzi...@hotmail.com wrote: Edd, I don’t want to start a discussion on how to charge the batteries (as this would be off topic), but starting from the ALL position has some major disadvantages. One is that you might be hiding a problem with your starting battery; two is that if one battery is weak, you would be charging that weak battery from the strong one (you risk that if one is nearly dead, the other would not start the engine, either, but instead would discharge to equalise the voltage with the weak one). No question (in my mind), the best way is to start from the starting battery (hence the name) and have the echo charger making sure that both batteries are charged properly. Some advocate to have the batteries split into “main” and “spare”. Many good marine batteries can be used as dual purpose. If you design your system this way, you start on the “main”, it gets charged by the alternator and the echo charger maintains the “spare”. If I remember correctly, you have a solar system, as well. Many charge controllers have a dual battery option and they can be setup to charge the “main” battery first and then charge the “spare” (mine has a selectable 50/50 or 90/10 split). If you are interested, you can check some of Main Sail’s articles on that topic at Sailboat Owners or at his web site (http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/). Marek (in Ottawa) PS. Would “may the Force (May the 4th) be with you” apply, even if it is a day late? I know it is mixing the references... From: Edd Schillay via CnC-List Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 10:58 AM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Mixed batteries Rich, Please do send around a diagram. I’m planning to do something similar — a 27 starting battery (as battery #2) and a 31 house bank (as battery#1). When I want to start and run the engine, I will do so on ALL. That way the alternator will charge both batteries. When sailing and “hanging out”, I would switch to 1 only. I have a solar panel and a dual battery regulator, which would connect to both. Two weeks to launch and still much to do….. All the best, Edd Edd M. Schillay Starship Enterprise CC 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B City Island, NY Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log On May 5, 2014, at 10:38 AM, Rich Knowles via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: The best method I have found and the least problematic from all points of view is to have a dedicated starting battery that does nothing else but start the engine, and a house battery that can be several batteries in parallel. Ideally the house batteries will all be identical. I feed the alternator directly to the house battery and use a device
Re: Stus-List Mixed batteries
Save yourself some trouble.use all deep cycle batteries, 2 golf cart 6V units connected in series if possible or 2 deep cycle group 27's, use the selector switch to charge one bank at a time from the alternator.works for me and seems quite simple.those 12V deep cycle batteries have way more than enough cranking amps to start our sailboat engines in summer, so you can alternate between bank 1 and bank 2 for starting or house, I do that regularly to make sure both banks get taken down and require charging on a semi regular basis. _ From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Marek Dziedzic via CnC-List Sent: May 5, 2014 2:02 PM To: Edd Schillay; cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Mixed batteries Edd, I don't want to start a discussion on how to charge the batteries (as this would be off topic), but starting from the ALL position has some major disadvantages. One is that you might be hiding a problem with your starting battery; two is that if one battery is weak, you would be charging that weak battery from the strong one (you risk that if one is nearly dead, the other would not start the engine, either, but instead would discharge to equalise the voltage with the weak one). No question (in my mind), the best way is to start from the starting battery (hence the name) and have the echo charger making sure that both batteries are charged properly. Some advocate to have the batteries split into main and spare. Many good marine batteries can be used as dual purpose. If you design your system this way, you start on the main, it gets charged by the alternator and the echo charger maintains the spare. If I remember correctly, you have a solar system, as well. Many charge controllers have a dual battery option and they can be setup to charge the main battery first and then charge the spare (mine has a selectable 50/50 or 90/10 split). If you are interested, you can check some of Main Sail's articles on that topic at Sailboat Owners or at his web site (http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/). Marek (in Ottawa) PS. Would may the Force (May the 4th) be with you apply, even if it is a day late? I know it is mixing the references... From: Edd Schillay mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com via CnC-List Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 10:58 AM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Mixed batteries Rich, Please do send around a diagram. I'm planning to do something similar - a 27 starting battery (as battery #2) and a 31 house bank (as battery#1). When I want to start and run the engine, I will do so on ALL. That way the alternator will charge both batteries. When sailing and hanging out, I would switch to 1 only. I have a solar panel and a dual battery regulator, which would connect to both. Two weeks to launch and still much to do... All the best, Edd Edd M. Schillay Starship Enterprise CC 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B City Island, NY Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log http://enterpriseb.blogspot.com/ On May 5, 2014, at 10:38 AM, Rich Knowles via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: The best method I have found and the least problematic from all points of view is to have a dedicated starting battery that does nothing else but start the engine, and a house battery that can be several batteries in parallel. Ideally the house batteries will all be identical. I feed the alternator directly to the house battery and use a device such as a Xantrex EchoCharge, a small regulator, to keep the start battery charged. A simple 1/both/2 off switch feeds the house load from either battery and acts as a combiner switch if needed. I have a diagram I can send you if you wish. I have wired many boats this way with no complaints or incidents. Rich Knowles Indigo. LF38 Halifax. NS On May 5, 2014, at 10:47, via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: In a pinch, I recently bought a 'starting' battery (Group 27) per my earlier post (no marine stores open after 6 on Saturdays) Then I decided to get a replacement for my dead Lifeline AGM battery. Of course, Murphy lurking about, I realized that my Zantrex Truecharge 40 wants all the batteries it charges to be the same since its charging schemes apply to all three outputs to the batteries. Before I pull the 'rope-a-dope' of returning the starting battery, I need some list advice: A lot of sailors suggest using a 'starting' battery exclusively for starting and using the house batteries for the house. I am aware that an AGM can be used for starting as well. However, if a 'starting' battery is better for this job (CCA, etc.) and the AGM is better for its job, how does one use a single charger like mine to satisfy different charging schemes? 2 chargers, a smarter charger that has outputs for different battery characteristics, or 'forgetaboutit and charge both batteries as though the were both AGMs? Charlie Nelson Water
Re: Stus-List Mixed batteries
In short, an Echo Charge is a simple regulator that derives it's input voltage from a battery connected to a charging source. It's output is connected to a secondary battery such as an engine start or windlass battery. If the input voltage rises above 3.4 volts, as I recall, the Rich On May 5, 2014, at 14:10, Edd Schillay via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: Marek, Very interesting. What exactly is an echo charger and how would I connect it? The previous owner had two house bank 31s and a starter battery hooked up parallel to one of them. That starter battery turned out to be dead and was dragging the other down. I replaced all with two new 31s about 4 years ago. Now one of those two is dead and I don’t feel like dumping $300 on a replacement when I’m not running on batteries for more than a few hours on any given day. All the best, Edd Edd M. Schillay Starship Enterprise CC 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B City Island, NY Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log On May 5, 2014, at 1:01 PM, Marek Dziedzic dziedzi...@hotmail.com wrote: Edd, I don’t want to start a discussion on how to charge the batteries (as this would be off topic), but starting from the ALL position has some major disadvantages. One is that you might be hiding a problem with your starting battery; two is that if one battery is weak, you would be charging that weak battery from the strong one (you risk that if one is nearly dead, the other would not start the engine, either, but instead would discharge to equalise the voltage with the weak one). No question (in my mind), the best way is to start from the starting battery (hence the name) and have the echo charger making sure that both batteries are charged properly. Some advocate to have the batteries split into “main” and “spare”. Many good marine batteries can be used as dual purpose. If you design your system this way, you start on the “main”, it gets charged by the alternator and the echo charger maintains the “spare”. If I remember correctly, you have a solar system, as well. Many charge controllers have a dual battery option and they can be setup to charge the “main” battery first and then charge the “spare” (mine has a selectable 50/50 or 90/10 split). If you are interested, you can check some of Main Sail’s articles on that topic at Sailboat Owners or at his web site (http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/). Marek (in Ottawa) PS. Would “may the Force (May the 4th) be with you” apply, even if it is a day late? I know it is mixing the references... From: Edd Schillay via CnC-List Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 10:58 AM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Mixed batteries Rich, Please do send around a diagram. I’m planning to do something similar — a 27 starting battery (as battery #2) and a 31 house bank (as battery#1). When I want to start and run the engine, I will do so on ALL. That way the alternator will charge both batteries. When sailing and “hanging out”, I would switch to 1 only. I have a solar panel and a dual battery regulator, which would connect to both. Two weeks to launch and still much to do….. All the best, Edd Edd M. Schillay Starship Enterprise CC 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B City Island, NY Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log On May 5, 2014, at 10:38 AM, Rich Knowles via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: The best method I have found and the least problematic from all points of view is to have a dedicated starting battery that does nothing else but start the engine, and a house battery that can be several batteries in parallel. Ideally the house batteries will all be identical. I feed the alternator directly to the house battery and use a device such as a Xantrex EchoCharge, a small regulator, to keep the start battery charged. A simple 1/both/2 off switch feeds the house load from either battery and acts as a combiner switch if needed. I have a diagram I can send you if you wish. I have wired many boats this way with no complaints or incidents. Rich Knowles Indigo. LF38 Halifax. NS On May 5, 2014, at 10:47, via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: In a pinch, I recently bought a 'starting' battery (Group 27) per my earlier post (no marine stores open after 6 on Saturdays) Then I decided to get a replacement for my dead Lifeline AGM battery. Of course, Murphy lurking about, I realized that my Zantrex Truecharge 40 wants all the batteries it charges to be the same since its charging schemes apply to all three outputs to the batteries. Before I pull the 'rope-a-dope' of returning the starting battery, I need some list advice: A lot of sailors suggest using a 'starting' battery exclusively for starting and using the house batteries for the house. I am aware
Re: Stus-List Mixed batteries
To Rich On May 5, 2014, at 15:52, Rich Knowles via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: In short, an Echo Charge is a simple regulator that derives it's input voltage from a battery connected to a charging source. It's output is connected to a secondary battery such as an engine start or windlass battery. If the input voltage rises above 3.4 volts, as I recall, the Rich On May 5, 2014, at 14:10, Edd Schillay via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: Marek, Very interesting. What exactly is an echo charger and how would I connect it? The previous owner had two house bank 31s and a starter battery hooked up parallel to one of them. That starter battery turned out to be dead and was dragging the other down. I replaced all with two new 31s about 4 years ago. Now one of those two is dead and I don’t feel like dumping $300 on a replacement when I’m not running on batteries for more than a few hours on any given day. All the best, Edd Edd M. Schillay Starship Enterprise CC 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B City Island, NY Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log On May 5, 2014, at 1:01 PM, Marek Dziedzic dziedzi...@hotmail.com wrote: Edd, I don’t want to start a discussion on how to charge the batteries (as this would be off topic), but starting from the ALL position has some major disadvantages. One is that you might be hiding a problem with your starting battery; two is that if one battery is weak, you would be charging that weak battery from the strong one (you risk that if one is nearly dead, the other would not start the engine, either, but instead would discharge to equalise the voltage with the weak one). No question (in my mind), the best way is to start from the starting battery (hence the name) and have the echo charger making sure that both batteries are charged properly. Some advocate to have the batteries split into “main” and “spare”. Many good marine batteries can be used as dual purpose. If you design your system this way, you start on the “main”, it gets charged by the alternator and the echo charger maintains the “spare”. If I remember correctly, you have a solar system, as well. Many charge controllers have a dual battery option and they can be setup to charge the “main” battery first and then charge the “spare” (mine has a selectable 50/50 or 90/10 split). If you are interested, you can check some of Main Sail’s articles on that topic at Sailboat Owners or at his web site (http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/). Marek (in Ottawa) PS. Would “may the Force (May the 4th) be with you” apply, even if it is a day late? I know it is mixing the references... From: Edd Schillay via CnC-List Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 10:58 AM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Mixed batteries Rich, Please do send around a diagram. I’m planning to do something similar — a 27 starting battery (as battery #2) and a 31 house bank (as battery#1). When I want to start and run the engine, I will do so on ALL. That way the alternator will charge both batteries. When sailing and “hanging out”, I would switch to 1 only. I have a solar panel and a dual battery regulator, which would connect to both. Two weeks to launch and still much to do….. All the best, Edd Edd M. Schillay Starship Enterprise CC 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B City Island, NY Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log On May 5, 2014, at 10:38 AM, Rich Knowles via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: The best method I have found and the least problematic from all points of view is to have a dedicated starting battery that does nothing else but start the engine, and a house battery that can be several batteries in parallel. Ideally the house batteries will all be identical. I feed the alternator directly to the house battery and use a device such as a Xantrex EchoCharge, a small regulator, to keep the start battery charged. A simple 1/both/2 off switch feeds the house load from either battery and acts as a combiner switch if needed. I have a diagram I can send you if you wish. I have wired many boats this way with no complaints or incidents. Rich Knowles Indigo. LF38 Halifax. NS On May 5, 2014, at 10:47, via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: In a pinch, I recently bought a 'starting' battery (Group 27) per my earlier post (no marine stores open after 6 on Saturdays) Then I decided to get a replacement for my dead Lifeline AGM battery. Of course, Murphy lurking about, I realized that my Zantrex Truecharge 40 wants all the batteries it charges to be the same since its charging schemes apply to all three outputs to the batteries. Before I pull the 'rope-a-dope' of returning the starting battery, I need some list advice: A lot of sailors suggest using a 'starting
Re: Stus-List Mixed batteries
Rich, I think I get it now. If I have my starter battery as #2, I start the engine with #2 only (not ALL). This echo-charger could take the Alternator charge going into #2 and also charge #1. Do I have that right? If so, I gots me some wiring to do…. All the best, Edd Edd M. Schillay Starship Enterprise CC 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B City Island, NY Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log On May 5, 2014, at 2:52 PM, Rich Knowles r...@sailpower.ca wrote: In short, an Echo Charge is a simple regulator that derives it's input voltage from a battery connected to a charging source. It's output is connected to a secondary battery such as an engine start or windlass battery. If the input voltage rises above 3.4 volts, as I recall, the Rich On May 5, 2014, at 14:10, Edd Schillay via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: Marek, Very interesting. What exactly is an echo charger and how would I connect it? The previous owner had two house bank 31s and a starter battery hooked up parallel to one of them. That starter battery turned out to be dead and was dragging the other down. I replaced all with two new 31s about 4 years ago. Now one of those two is dead and I don’t feel like dumping $300 on a replacement when I’m not running on batteries for more than a few hours on any given day. All the best, Edd Edd M. Schillay Starship Enterprise CC 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B City Island, NY Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log On May 5, 2014, at 1:01 PM, Marek Dziedzic dziedzi...@hotmail.com wrote: Edd, I don’t want to start a discussion on how to charge the batteries (as this would be off topic), but starting from the ALL position has some major disadvantages. One is that you might be hiding a problem with your starting battery; two is that if one battery is weak, you would be charging that weak battery from the strong one (you risk that if one is nearly dead, the other would not start the engine, either, but instead would discharge to equalise the voltage with the weak one). No question (in my mind), the best way is to start from the starting battery (hence the name) and have the echo charger making sure that both batteries are charged properly. Some advocate to have the batteries split into “main” and “spare”. Many good marine batteries can be used as dual purpose. If you design your system this way, you start on the “main”, it gets charged by the alternator and the echo charger maintains the “spare”. If I remember correctly, you have a solar system, as well. Many charge controllers have a dual battery option and they can be setup to charge the “main” battery first and then charge the “spare” (mine has a selectable 50/50 or 90/10 split). If you are interested, you can check some of Main Sail’s articles on that topic at Sailboat Owners or at his web site (http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/). Marek (in Ottawa) PS. Would “may the Force (May the 4th) be with you” apply, even if it is a day late? I know it is mixing the references... From: Edd Schillay via CnC-List Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 10:58 AM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Mixed batteries Rich, Please do send around a diagram. I’m planning to do something similar — a 27 starting battery (as battery #2) and a 31 house bank (as battery#1). When I want to start and run the engine, I will do so on ALL. That way the alternator will charge both batteries. When sailing and “hanging out”, I would switch to 1 only. I have a solar panel and a dual battery regulator, which would connect to both. Two weeks to launch and still much to do….. All the best, Edd Edd M. Schillay Starship Enterprise CC 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B City Island, NY Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log On May 5, 2014, at 10:38 AM, Rich Knowles via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: The best method I have found and the least problematic from all points of view is to have a dedicated starting battery that does nothing else but start the engine, and a house battery that can be several batteries in parallel. Ideally the house batteries will all be identical. I feed the alternator directly to the house battery and use a device such as a Xantrex EchoCharge, a small regulator, to keep the start battery charged. A simple 1/both/2 off switch feeds the house load from either battery and acts as a combiner switch if needed. I have a diagram I can send you if you wish. I have wired many boats this way with no complaints or incidents. Rich Knowles Indigo. LF38 Halifax. NS On May 5, 2014, at 10:47, via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: In a pinch, I recently bought a 'starting' battery (Group 27) per my earlier post (no marine
Re: Stus-List Mixed batteries
To finish, doggone phones, if the input voltage rises above a preset threshold voltage indicating charge current is available, and the auxiliary battery voltage is below a preset level, the Echo Charge will send up to 15 Amps of charge current to the auxiliary battery. Once it is charged, the current flow is turned off. Simple and works. Only three wires to hook up. Rich On May 5, 2014, at 15:52, Rich Knowles via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: In short, an Echo Charge is a simple regulator that derives it's input voltage from a battery connected to a charging source. It's output is connected to a secondary battery such as an engine start or windlass battery. If the input voltage rises above 3.4 volts, as I recall, the Rich On May 5, 2014, at 14:10, Edd Schillay via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: Marek, Very interesting. What exactly is an echo charger and how would I connect it? The previous owner had two house bank 31s and a starter battery hooked up parallel to one of them. That starter battery turned out to be dead and was dragging the other down. I replaced all with two new 31s about 4 years ago. Now one of those two is dead and I don’t feel like dumping $300 on a replacement when I’m not running on batteries for more than a few hours on any given day. All the best, Edd Edd M. Schillay Starship Enterprise CC 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B City Island, NY Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log On May 5, 2014, at 1:01 PM, Marek Dziedzic dziedzi...@hotmail.com wrote: Edd, I don’t want to start a discussion on how to charge the batteries (as this would be off topic), but starting from the ALL position has some major disadvantages. One is that you might be hiding a problem with your starting battery; two is that if one battery is weak, you would be charging that weak battery from the strong one (you risk that if one is nearly dead, the other would not start the engine, either, but instead would discharge to equalise the voltage with the weak one). No question (in my mind), the best way is to start from the starting battery (hence the name) and have the echo charger making sure that both batteries are charged properly. Some advocate to have the batteries split into “main” and “spare”. Many good marine batteries can be used as dual purpose. If you design your system this way, you start on the “main”, it gets charged by the alternator and the echo charger maintains the “spare”. If I remember correctly, you have a solar system, as well. Many charge controllers have a dual battery option and they can be setup to charge the “main” battery first and then charge the “spare” (mine has a selectable 50/50 or 90/10 split). If you are interested, you can check some of Main Sail’s articles on that topic at Sailboat Owners or at his web site (http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/). Marek (in Ottawa) PS. Would “may the Force (May the 4th) be with you” apply, even if it is a day late? I know it is mixing the references... From: Edd Schillay via CnC-List Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 10:58 AM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Mixed batteries Rich, Please do send around a diagram. I’m planning to do something similar — a 27 starting battery (as battery #2) and a 31 house bank (as battery#1). When I want to start and run the engine, I will do so on ALL. That way the alternator will charge both batteries. When sailing and “hanging out”, I would switch to 1 only. I have a solar panel and a dual battery regulator, which would connect to both. Two weeks to launch and still much to do….. All the best, Edd Edd M. Schillay Starship Enterprise CC 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B City Island, NY Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log On May 5, 2014, at 10:38 AM, Rich Knowles via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: The best method I have found and the least problematic from all points of view is to have a dedicated starting battery that does nothing else but start the engine, and a house battery that can be several batteries in parallel. Ideally the house batteries will all be identical. I feed the alternator directly to the house battery and use a device such as a Xantrex EchoCharge, a small regulator, to keep the start battery charged. A simple 1/both/2 off switch feeds the house load from either battery and acts as a combiner switch if needed. I have a diagram I can send you if you wish. I have wired many boats this way with no complaints or incidents. Rich Knowles Indigo. LF38 Halifax. NS On May 5, 2014, at 10:47, via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.comwrote: In a pinch, I recently bought a 'starting' battery (Group 27) per my earlier post (no marine stores open after 6 on Saturdays) Then I decided to get a replacement for my dead
Re: Stus-List Mixed batteries
OK… maybe I don’t get it. I just read the manual and could use some collective wisdom from the group. Here goes.. The House battery is #1 (a deep cycle 31) and the starter battery is #2 (a 27). The manual says I should connect this to the House battery, which will, when charging, send power to the starter battery. I have a solar setup, but that never brings the battery to over 13.0 volts (which is the “ON” point for the echo charger), so the only way to really get the Echo thing going, and my main way of charging the batteries, is by engine power. But I should really only start and run the engine with the starter battery, right? And the echo doesn’t reverse, right? So, should I set it up backwards? That way, when I start the engine on #2, the alternator charges #2 and then the echo will charge the house #1. And, move my solar charging to #2 also? Confused….. All the best, Edd Edd M. Schillay Starship Enterprise CC 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B City Island, NY Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log On May 5, 2014, at 3:28 PM, Edd Schillay via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: Rich, I think I get it now. If I have my starter battery as #2, I start the engine with #2 only (not ALL). This echo-charger could take the Alternator charge going into #2 and also charge #1. Do I have that right? If so, I gots me some wiring to do…. All the best, Edd Edd M. Schillay Starship Enterprise CC 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B City Island, NY Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log On May 5, 2014, at 2:52 PM, Rich Knowles r...@sailpower.ca wrote: In short, an Echo Charge is a simple regulator that derives it's input voltage from a battery connected to a charging source. It's output is connected to a secondary battery such as an engine start or windlass battery. If the input voltage rises above 3.4 volts, as I recall, the Rich On May 5, 2014, at 14:10, Edd Schillay via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: Marek, Very interesting. What exactly is an echo charger and how would I connect it? The previous owner had two house bank 31s and a starter battery hooked up parallel to one of them. That starter battery turned out to be dead and was dragging the other down. I replaced all with two new 31s about 4 years ago. Now one of those two is dead and I don’t feel like dumping $300 on a replacement when I’m not running on batteries for more than a few hours on any given day. All the best, Edd Edd M. Schillay Starship Enterprise CC 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B City Island, NY Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log On May 5, 2014, at 1:01 PM, Marek Dziedzic dziedzi...@hotmail.com wrote: Edd, I don’t want to start a discussion on how to charge the batteries (as this would be off topic), but starting from the ALL position has some major disadvantages. One is that you might be hiding a problem with your starting battery; two is that if one battery is weak, you would be charging that weak battery from the strong one (you risk that if one is nearly dead, the other would not start the engine, either, but instead would discharge to equalise the voltage with the weak one). No question (in my mind), the best way is to start from the starting battery (hence the name) and have the echo charger making sure that both batteries are charged properly. Some advocate to have the batteries split into “main” and “spare”. Many good marine batteries can be used as dual purpose. If you design your system this way, you start on the “main”, it gets charged by the alternator and the echo charger maintains the “spare”. If I remember correctly, you have a solar system, as well. Many charge controllers have a dual battery option and they can be setup to charge the “main” battery first and then charge the “spare” (mine has a selectable 50/50 or 90/10 split). If you are interested, you can check some of Main Sail’s articles on that topic at Sailboat Owners or at his web site (http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/). Marek (in Ottawa) PS. Would “may the Force (May the 4th) be with you” apply, even if it is a day late? I know it is mixing the references... From: Edd Schillay via CnC-List Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 10:58 AM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Mixed batteries Rich, Please do send around a diagram. I’m planning to do something similar — a 27 starting battery (as battery #2) and a 31 house bank (as battery#1). When I want to start and run the engine, I will do so on ALL. That way the alternator will charge both batteries. When sailing and “hanging out”, I would switch to 1 only. I have a solar panel and a dual battery regulator, which would connect to both. Two weeks
Re: Stus-List Mixed batteries
Almost:) connect the alternator directly to your house battery and make that battery 1. Rich On May 5, 2014, at 16:28, Edd Schillay via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: Rich, I think I get it now. If I have my starter battery as #2, I start the engine with #2 only (not ALL). This echo-charger could take the Alternator charge going into #2 and also charge #1. Do I have that right? If so, I gots me some wiring to do…. All the best, Edd Edd M. Schillay Starship Enterprise CC 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B City Island, NY Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log On May 5, 2014, at 2:52 PM, Rich Knowles r...@sailpower.ca wrote: In short, an Echo Charge is a simple regulator that derives it's input voltage from a battery connected to a charging source. It's output is connected to a secondary battery such as an engine start or windlass battery. If the input voltage rises above 3.4 volts, as I recall, the Rich On May 5, 2014, at 14:10, Edd Schillay via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: Marek, Very interesting. What exactly is an echo charger and how would I connect it? The previous owner had two house bank 31s and a starter battery hooked up parallel to one of them. That starter battery turned out to be dead and was dragging the other down. I replaced all with two new 31s about 4 years ago. Now one of those two is dead and I don’t feel like dumping $300 on a replacement when I’m not running on batteries for more than a few hours on any given day. All the best, Edd Edd M. Schillay Starship Enterprise CC 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B City Island, NY Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log On May 5, 2014, at 1:01 PM, Marek Dziedzic dziedzi...@hotmail.com wrote: Edd, I don’t want to start a discussion on how to charge the batteries (as this would be off topic), but starting from the ALL position has some major disadvantages. One is that you might be hiding a problem with your starting battery; two is that if one battery is weak, you would be charging that weak battery from the strong one (you risk that if one is nearly dead, the other would not start the engine, either, but instead would discharge to equalise the voltage with the weak one). No question (in my mind), the best way is to start from the starting battery (hence the name) and have the echo charger making sure that both batteries are charged properly. Some advocate to have the batteries split into “main” and “spare”. Many good marine batteries can be used as dual purpose. If you design your system this way, you start on the “main”, it gets charged by the alternator and the echo charger maintains the “spare”. If I remember correctly, you have a solar system, as well. Many charge controllers have a dual battery option and they can be setup to charge the “main” battery first and then charge the “spare” (mine has a selectable 50/50 or 90/10 split). If you are interested, you can check some of Main Sail’s articles on that topic at Sailboat Owners or at his web site (http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/). Marek (in Ottawa) PS. Would “may the Force (May the 4th) be with you” apply, even if it is a day late? I know it is mixing the references... From: Edd Schillay via CnC-List Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 10:58 AM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Mixed batteries Rich, Please do send around a diagram. I’m planning to do something similar — a 27 starting battery (as battery #2) and a 31 house bank (as battery#1). When I want to start and run the engine, I will do so on ALL. That way the alternator will charge both batteries. When sailing and “hanging out”, I would switch to 1 only. I have a solar panel and a dual battery regulator, which would connect to both. Two weeks to launch and still much to do….. All the best, Edd Edd M. Schillay Starship Enterprise CC 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B City Island, NY Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log On May 5, 2014, at 10:38 AM, Rich Knowles via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: The best method I have found and the least problematic from all points of view is to have a dedicated starting battery that does nothing else but start the engine, and a house battery that can be several batteries in parallel. Ideally the house batteries will all be identical. I feed the alternator directly to the house battery and use a device such as a Xantrex EchoCharge, a small regulator, to keep the start battery charged. A simple 1/both/2 off switch feeds the house load from either battery and acts as a combiner switch if needed. I have a diagram I can send you if you wish. I have wired many boats this way with no complaints or incidents. Rich Knowles Indigo. LF38
Re: Stus-List Mixed batteries
Edd, I just added an automatic charging relay (available in this kit http://www.bluesea.com/products/7650/Add-A-Battery_Kit_-_120A) to replace the two separate banks that I had previously (2 x 27 deep cycle / 1 x 24). This is similar to the echo charge. Rewiring wasn't too complicated as the positives for the starter / engine side were already separately led from the breaker panel. Tim Mojito CC 35-3 Branford, CT On Mon, May 5, 2014 at 3:28 PM, Edd Schillay via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: Rich, I think I get it now. If I have my starter battery as #2, I start the engine with #2 only (not ALL). This echo-charger could take the Alternator charge going into #2 and also charge #1. Do I have that right? If so, I gots me some wiring to do…. All the best, Edd Edd M. Schillay Starship Enterprise CC 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B City Island, NY Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log http://enterpriseb.blogspot.com/ ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Mixed batteries
I think my alternator is set up to charge whatever batteries I have on my selector switch… Any way to do this without running new wires from my alternator? All the best, Edd Edd M. Schillay Starship Enterprise CC 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B City Island, NY Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log On May 5, 2014, at 3:44 PM, Rich Knowles r...@sailpower.ca wrote: Almost:) connect the alternator directly to your house battery and make that battery 1. Rich On May 5, 2014, at 16:28, Edd Schillay via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: Rich, I think I get it now. If I have my starter battery as #2, I start the engine with #2 only (not ALL). This echo-charger could take the Alternator charge going into #2 and also charge #1. Do I have that right? If so, I gots me some wiring to do…. All the best, Edd Edd M. Schillay Starship Enterprise CC 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B City Island, NY Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log On May 5, 2014, at 2:52 PM, Rich Knowles r...@sailpower.ca wrote: In short, an Echo Charge is a simple regulator that derives it's input voltage from a battery connected to a charging source. It's output is connected to a secondary battery such as an engine start or windlass battery. If the input voltage rises above 3.4 volts, as I recall, the Rich On May 5, 2014, at 14:10, Edd Schillay via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: Marek, Very interesting. What exactly is an echo charger and how would I connect it? The previous owner had two house bank 31s and a starter battery hooked up parallel to one of them. That starter battery turned out to be dead and was dragging the other down. I replaced all with two new 31s about 4 years ago. Now one of those two is dead and I don’t feel like dumping $300 on a replacement when I’m not running on batteries for more than a few hours on any given day. All the best, Edd Edd M. Schillay Starship Enterprise CC 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B City Island, NY Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log On May 5, 2014, at 1:01 PM, Marek Dziedzic dziedzi...@hotmail.com wrote: Edd, I don’t want to start a discussion on how to charge the batteries (as this would be off topic), but starting from the ALL position has some major disadvantages. One is that you might be hiding a problem with your starting battery; two is that if one battery is weak, you would be charging that weak battery from the strong one (you risk that if one is nearly dead, the other would not start the engine, either, but instead would discharge to equalise the voltage with the weak one). No question (in my mind), the best way is to start from the starting battery (hence the name) and have the echo charger making sure that both batteries are charged properly. Some advocate to have the batteries split into “main” and “spare”. Many good marine batteries can be used as dual purpose. If you design your system this way, you start on the “main”, it gets charged by the alternator and the echo charger maintains the “spare”. If I remember correctly, you have a solar system, as well. Many charge controllers have a dual battery option and they can be setup to charge the “main” battery first and then charge the “spare” (mine has a selectable 50/50 or 90/10 split). If you are interested, you can check some of Main Sail’s articles on that topic at Sailboat Owners or at his web site (http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/). Marek (in Ottawa) PS. Would “may the Force (May the 4th) be with you” apply, even if it is a day late? I know it is mixing the references... From: Edd Schillay via CnC-List Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 10:58 AM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Mixed batteries Rich, Please do send around a diagram. I’m planning to do something similar — a 27 starting battery (as battery #2) and a 31 house bank (as battery#1). When I want to start and run the engine, I will do so on ALL. That way the alternator will charge both batteries. When sailing and “hanging out”, I would switch to 1 only. I have a solar panel and a dual battery regulator, which would connect to both. Two weeks to launch and still much to do….. All the best, Edd Edd M. Schillay Starship Enterprise CC 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B City Island, NY Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log On May 5, 2014, at 10:38 AM, Rich Knowles via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: The best method I have found and the least problematic from all points of view is to have a dedicated starting battery that does nothing else but start the engine, and a house battery that can be several batteries in parallel. Ideally the house batteries will all be identical. I feed
Re: Stus-List Mixed batteries
The Echo Charger has an input and an output side. As Rich mentions the input side is connected to the batteries which are receiving the charge via alternator and charger. The output side connected to the battery which typically has no other charging source. The additional comments are that the primary charging sources and the EchoCharge input be connected to the house side and the EchoCharge output to the starting battery. The EchoCharge is a one-way thing . input to output charging. Edd, in you example I think the normal setup would be to take the alternator to #1 and EchoCharge to #2 ( the 'input' from #1 and 'output' to #2 ). You can still have some combiner set-up for emergency house/starter switching. thanks ed vanderkruk s/v Prime Interest 1982 CC 38 Landfall Toronto, Canada cid:image001.jpg@01C8A05F.9AF64FF0 LF 38, S/N: 229 primeinter...@gmail.com www.primeinterest.blogspot.com From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Edd Schillay via CnC-List Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 3:29 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Mixed batteries Rich, I think I get it now. If I have my starter battery as #2, I start the engine with #2 only (not ALL). This echo-charger could take the Alternator charge going into #2 and also charge #1. Do I have that right? If so, I gots me some wiring to do.. All the best, Edd Edd M. Schillay Starship Enterprise CC 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B City Island, NY Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log http://enterpriseb.blogspot.com/ On May 5, 2014, at 2:52 PM, Rich Knowles r...@sailpower.ca wrote: In short, an Echo Charge is a simple regulator that derives it's input voltage from a battery connected to a charging source. It's output is connected to a secondary battery such as an engine start or windlass battery. If the input voltage rises above 3.4 volts, as I recall, the Rich On May 5, 2014, at 14:10, Edd Schillay via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: Marek, Very interesting. What exactly is an echo charger and how would I connect it? The previous owner had two house bank 31s and a starter battery hooked up parallel to one of them. That starter battery turned out to be dead and was dragging the other down. I replaced all with two new 31s about 4 years ago. Now one of those two is dead and I don't feel like dumping $300 on a replacement when I'm not running on batteries for more than a few hours on any given day. All the best, Edd Edd M. Schillay Starship Enterprise CC 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B City Island, NY Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log http://enterpriseb.blogspot.com/ On May 5, 2014, at 1:01 PM, Marek Dziedzic dziedzi...@hotmail.com wrote: Edd, I don't want to start a discussion on how to charge the batteries (as this would be off topic), but starting from the ALL position has some major disadvantages. One is that you might be hiding a problem with your starting battery; two is that if one battery is weak, you would be charging that weak battery from the strong one (you risk that if one is nearly dead, the other would not start the engine, either, but instead would discharge to equalise the voltage with the weak one). No question (in my mind), the best way is to start from the starting battery (hence the name) and have the echo charger making sure that both batteries are charged properly. Some advocate to have the batteries split into main and spare. Many good marine batteries can be used as dual purpose. If you design your system this way, you start on the main, it gets charged by the alternator and the echo charger maintains the spare. If I remember correctly, you have a solar system, as well. Many charge controllers have a dual battery option and they can be setup to charge the main battery first and then charge the spare (mine has a selectable 50/50 or 90/10 split). If you are interested, you can check some of Main Sail's articles on that topic at Sailboat Owners or at his web site (http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/). Marek (in Ottawa) PS. Would may the Force (May the 4th) be with you apply, even if it is a day late? I know it is mixing the references... From: Edd Schillay via CnC-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 10:58 AM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Mixed batteries Rich, Please do send around a diagram. I'm planning to do something similar - a 27 starting battery (as battery #2) and a 31 house bank (as battery#1). When I want to start and run the engine, I will do so on ALL. That way
Re: Stus-List Mixed batteries
know it is mixing the references... From: Edd Schillay via CnC-List Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 10:58 AM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Mixed batteries Rich, Please do send around a diagram. I’m planning to do something similar — a 27 starting battery (as battery #2) and a 31 house bank (as battery#1). When I want to start and run the engine, I will do so on ALL. That way the alternator will charge both batteries. When sailing and “hanging out”, I would switch to 1 only. I have a solar panel and a dual battery regulator, which would connect to both. Two weeks to launch and still much to do….. All the best, Edd Edd M. Schillay Starship Enterprise CC 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B City Island, NY Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log On May 5, 2014, at 10:38 AM, Rich Knowles via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: The best method I have found and the least problematic from all points of view is to have a dedicated starting battery that does nothing else but start the engine, and a house battery that can be several batteries in parallel. Ideally the house batteries will all be identical. I feed the alternator directly to the house battery and use a device such as a Xantrex EchoCharge, asmall regulator, to keep the start battery charged. A simple 1/both/2 off switch feeds the house load from either battery and acts as a combiner switch if needed. I have a diagram I can send you if you wish. I have wired many boats this way with no complaints or incidents. Rich Knowles Indigo. LF38 Halifax. NS On May 5, 2014, at 10:47, via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: In a pinch, I recently bought a 'starting' battery (Group 27) per my earlier post (no marine stores open after 6 on Saturdays) Then I decided to get a replacement for my dead Lifeline AGM battery. Of course, Murphy lurking about, I realized that my Zantrex Truecharge 40 wants all the batteries it charges to be the same since its charging schemes apply to all three outputs to the batteries. Before I pull the 'rope-a-dope' of returning the starting battery, I need some list advice: A lot of sailors suggest using a 'starting' battery exclusively for starting and using the house batteries for the house. I am aware that an AGM can be used for starting as well. However, if a 'starting' battery is better for this job (CCA, etc.) and the AGM is better for its job, how does one use a single charger like mine to satisfy different charging schemes? 2 chargers, a smarter charger that has outputs for different battery characteristics, or 'forgetaboutit and charge both batteries as though the were both AGMs? Charlie Nelson Water Phantom CC 36 XL/kcb cenel...@aol.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Mixed batteries
A-ha That’s the piece of the puzzle I wasn’t getting. OK… time to rewire. Rich Knowles?? I don’t think so, From now on you’ll be Rich Knowmore to me. Hot damn, I love this list. Thanks to Stu, too. All the best, Edd Edd M. Schillay Starship Enterprise CC 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B City Island, NY Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log On May 5, 2014, at 4:00 PM, Rich Knowles r...@sailpower.ca wrote: No. On most factory supplied engines, the alternator output is tied to the large + battery connector on the starter or solenoid. Disconnect the wire in the back of the alternator and run a new cable from the alternator output terminal to the house bank positive terminal. The cable should be sized for the expected current and distance. Usually a #4 or #6 should be adequate. Rich On May 5, 2014, at 16:50, Edd Schillay e...@schillay.com wrote: I think my alternator is set up to charge whatever batteries I have on my selector switch… Any way to do this without running new wires from my alternator? All the best, Edd Edd M. Schillay Starship Enterprise CC 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B City Island, NY Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log On May 5, 2014, at 3:44 PM, Rich Knowles r...@sailpower.ca wrote: Almost:) connect the alternator directly to your house battery and make that battery 1. Rich On May 5, 2014, at 16:28, Edd Schillay via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: Rich, I think I get it now. If I have my starter battery as #2, I start the engine with #2 only (not ALL). This echo-charger could take the Alternator charge going into #2 and also charge #1. Do I have that right? If so, I gots me some wiring to do…. All the best, Edd Edd M. Schillay Starship Enterprise CC 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B City Island, NY Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log On May 5, 2014, at 2:52 PM, Rich Knowles r...@sailpower.ca wrote: In short, an Echo Charge is a simple regulator that derives it's input voltage from a battery connected to a charging source. It's output is connected to a secondary battery such as an engine start or windlass battery. If the input voltage rises above 3.4 volts, as I recall, the Rich On May 5, 2014, at 14:10, Edd Schillay via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: Marek, Very interesting. What exactly is an echo charger and how would I connect it? The previous owner had two house bank 31s and a starter battery hooked up parallel to one of them. That starter battery turned out to be dead and was dragging the other down. I replaced all with two new 31s about 4 years ago. Now one of those two is dead and I don’t feel like dumping $300 on a replacement when I’m not running on batteries for more than a few hours on any given day. All the best, Edd Edd M. Schillay Starship Enterprise CC 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B City Island, NY Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log On May 5, 2014, at 1:01 PM, Marek Dziedzic dziedzi...@hotmail.com wrote: Edd, I don’t want to start a discussion on how to charge the batteries (as this would be off topic), but starting from the ALL position has some major disadvantages. One is that you might be hiding a problem with your starting battery; two is that if one battery is weak, you would be charging that weak battery from the strong one (you risk that if one is nearly dead, the other would not start the engine, either, but instead would discharge to equalise the voltage with the weak one). No question (in my mind), the best way is to start from the starting battery (hence the name) and have the echo charger making sure that both batteries are charged properly. Some advocate to have the batteries split into “main” and “spare”. Many good marine batteries can be used as dual purpose. If you design your system this way, you start on the “main”, it gets charged by the alternator and the echo charger maintains the “spare”. If I remember correctly, you have a solar system, as well. Many charge controllers have a dual battery option and they can be setup to charge the “main” battery first and then charge the “spare” (mine has a selectable 50/50 or 90/10 split). If you are interested, you can check some of Main Sail’s articles on that topic at Sailboat Owners or at his web site (http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/). Marek (in Ottawa) PS. Would “may the Force (May the 4th) be with you” apply, even if it is a day late? I know it is mixing the references... From: Edd Schillay via CnC-List Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 10:58 AM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Mixed batteries Rich, Please do send around a diagram. I’m planning to do something similar — a 27 starting battery (as battery #2) and a 31
Re: Stus-List Mixed batteries
Nothing wrong with that. It works for those who pay good attention to switching and consumption. For those who don't, it's an invitation for trouble. Rich On May 5, 2014, at 15:07, dwight via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: Save yourself some trouble…use all deep cycle batteries, 2 golf cart 6V units connected in series if possible or 2 deep cycle group 27’s, use the selector switch to charge one bank at a time from the alternator…works for me and seems quite simple…those 12V deep cycle batteries have way more than enough cranking amps to start our sailboat engines in summer, so you can alternate between bank 1 and bank 2 for starting or house, I do that regularly to make sure both banks get taken down and require charging on a semi regular basis. From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Marek Dziedzic via CnC-List Sent: May 5, 2014 2:02 PM To: Edd Schillay; cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Mixed batteries Edd, I don’t want to start a discussion on how to charge the batteries (as this would be off topic), but starting from the ALL position has some major disadvantages. One is that you might be hiding a problem with your starting battery; two is that if one battery is weak, you would be charging that weak battery from the strong one (you risk that if one is nearly dead, the other would not start the engine, either, but instead would discharge to equalise the voltage with the weak one). No question (in my mind), the best way is to start from the starting battery (hence the name) and have the echo charger making sure that both batteries are charged properly. Some advocate to have the batteries split into “main” and “spare”. Many good marine batteries can be used as dual purpose. If you design your system this way, you start on the “main”, it gets charged by the alternator and the echo charger maintains the “spare”. If I remember correctly, you have a solar system, as well. Many charge controllers have a dual battery option and they can be setup to charge the “main” battery first and then charge the “spare” (mine has a selectable 50/50 or 90/10 split). If you are interested, you can check some of Main Sail’s articles on that topic at Sailboat Owners or at his web site (http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/). Marek (in Ottawa) PS. Would “may the Force (May the 4th) be with you” apply, even if it is a day late? I know it is mixing the references... From: Edd Schillay via CnC-List Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 10:58 AM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Mixed batteries Rich, Please do send around a diagram. I’m planning to do something similar — a 27 starting battery (as battery #2) and a 31 house bank (as battery#1). When I want to start and run the engine, I will do so on ALL. That way the alternator will charge both batteries. When sailing and “hanging out”, I would switch to 1 only. I have a solar panel and a dual battery regulator, which would connect to both. Two weeks to launch and still much to do….. All the best, Edd Edd M. Schillay Starship Enterprise CC 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B City Island, NY Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log On May 5, 2014, at 10:38 AM, Rich Knowles via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: The best method I have found and the least problematic from all points of view is to have a dedicated starting battery that does nothing else but start the engine, and a house battery that can be several batteries in parallel. Ideally the house batteries will all be identical. I feed the alternator directly to the house battery and use a device such as a Xantrex EchoCharge, a small regulator, to keep the start battery charged. A simple 1/both/2 off switch feeds the house load from either battery and acts as a combiner switch if needed. I have a diagram I can send you if you wish. I have wired many boats this way with no complaints or incidents. Rich Knowles Indigo. LF38 Halifax. NS On May 5, 2014, at 10:47, via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: In a pinch, I recently bought a 'starting' battery (Group 27) per my earlier post (no marine stores open after 6 on Saturdays) Then I decided to get a replacement for my dead Lifeline AGM battery. Of course, Murphy lurking about, I realized that my Zantrex Truecharge 40 wants all the batteries it charges to be the same since its charging schemes apply to all three outputs to the batteries. Before I pull the 'rope-a-dope' of returning the starting battery, I need some list advice: A lot of sailors suggest using a 'starting' battery exclusively for starting and using the house batteries for the house. I am aware that an AGM can be used for starting as well. However, if a 'starting' battery is better for this job (CCA, etc.) and the AGM is better for its job, how does one use
Re: Stus-List Mixed batteries
Marek, this is not a money issue. It's merely a way of making sure that all batteries get due attention and are properly charged. All the people I've converted to this system have never been stuck for power to start their engines. The rant is just that. A rant. Nothing is really wrong, it's just that Xantrex assumes we are not all ignorant. Rich On May 5, 2014, at 14:52, Marek Dziedzic via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: Edd, I am far from being an expert on charging systems, so whatever I say here is based on my personal experience and what I have found from others. The echo charger is a Xantrex device (I bet that others make one like that, as well). WM sells it here: http://www.westmarine.com/triple-blocks/xantrex--echo-charge-battery-charger—333669; Defender here: http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|328|2289962|2289976id=93959 (for $10 less). It seems that it is a device that responds to exactly your issue – how to keep a starting battery charged and separated from the house without any overly complex (and costly) dual battery regulators. Apparently, there is a caveat with it. You may want to read that rant by Main Sail: http://www.sailnet.com/forums/electrical-systems/72295-xantrex-echo-charger-rant.html. There is nothing wrong with the device; only with the instruction manual that comes with it. Btw. Nothing is cheap (as usual with anything boat related). The Echo Charger sells for about $120. maybe I should not use the word “cheap”, because I think that this is a cheap insurance. But it is not necessarily a “low cost”. After all, you would be spending $120 plus installation, plus rewiring, plus some additional incidental costs in order to save a $100 battery or two. Btw 2. I bet that a few of our (CC List’s) electrical experts would have to say a word or two on the subject. Marek (in Ottawa). From: Edd Schillay via CnC-List Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 1:10 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Mixed batteries Marek, Very interesting. What exactly is an echo charger and how would I connect it? The previous owner had two house bank 31s and a starter battery hooked up parallel to one of them. That starter battery turned out to be dead and was dragging the other down. I replaced all with two new 31s about 4 years ago. Now one of those two is dead and I don’t feel like dumping $300 on a replacement when I’m not running on batteries for more than a few hours on any given day. All the best, Edd Edd M. Schillay Starship Enterprise CC 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B City Island, NY Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log On May 5, 2014, at 1:01 PM, Marek Dziedzic dziedzi...@hotmail.com wrote: Edd, I don’t want to start a discussion on how to charge the batteries (as this would be off topic), but starting from the ALL position has some major disadvantages. One is that you might be hiding a problem with your starting battery; two is that if one battery is weak, you would be charging that weak battery from the strong one (you risk that if one is nearly dead, the other would not start the engine, either, but instead would discharge to equalise the voltage with the weak one). No question (in my mind), the best way is to start from the starting battery (hence the name) and have the echo charger making sure that both batteries are charged properly. Some advocate to have the batteries split into “main” and “spare”. Many good marine batteries can be used as dual purpose. If you design your system this way, you start on the “main”, it gets charged by the alternator and the echo charger maintains the “spare”. If I remember correctly, you have a solar system, as well. Many charge controllers have a dual battery option and they can be setup to charge the “main” battery first and then charge the “spare” (mine has a selectable 50/50 or 90/10 split). If you are interested, you can check some of Main Sail’s articles on that topic at Sailboat Owners or at his web site (http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/). Marek (in Ottawa) PS. Would “may the Force (May the 4th) be with you” apply, even if it is a day late? I know it is mixing the references... From: Edd Schillay via CnC-List Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 10:58 AM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Mixed batteries Rich, Please do send around a diagram. I’m planning to do something similar — a 27 starting battery (as battery #2) and a 31 house bank (as battery#1). When I want to start and run the engine, I will do so on ALL. That way the alternator will charge both batteries. When sailing and “hanging out”, I would switch to 1 only. I have a solar panel and a dual battery regulator, which would connect to both. Two weeks to launch and still much to do….. All the best, Edd Edd M. Schillay Starship
Re: Stus-List Mixed batteries
There are any number of ways to wire a boat. I have changed a few things, but I have always stuck with the principle that I can turn every light on, go ashore for a few days, and then come back to a dead house battery and hit the starter button and have the engine start right up and charge both banks without having to set any switches. The last time we were stuck with a dead battery was during hurricane Charlie and that was because one of them cracked and the acid leaked out. I’ll post how mine are wired tonight sometime. Joe Della Barba Coquina CC 35 MK I From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Rich Knowles via CnC-List Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 4:20 PM To: Marek Dziedzic; cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Mixed batteries Marek, this is not a money issue. It's merely a way of making sure that all batteries get due attention and are properly charged. All the people I've converted to this system have never been stuck for power to start their engines. The rant is just that. A rant. Nothing is really wrong, it's just that Xantrex assumes we are not all ignorant. Rich On May 5, 2014, at 14:52, Marek Dziedzic via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.commailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: Edd, I am far from being an expert on charging systems, so whatever I say here is based on my personal experience and what I have found from others. The echo charger is a Xantrex device (I bet that others make one like that, as well). WM sells it here: http://www.westmarine.com/triple-blocks/xantrex--echo-charge-battery-charger—333669; Defender here: http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|328|2289962|2289976id=93959 (for $10 less). It seems that it is a device that responds to exactly your issue – how to keep a starting battery charged and separated from the house without any overly complex (and costly) dual battery regulators. Apparently, there is a caveat with it. You may want to read that rant by Main Sail: http://www.sailnet.com/forums/electrical-systems/72295-xantrex-echo-charger-rant.html. There is nothing wrong with the device; only with the instruction manual that comes with it. Btw. Nothing is cheap (as usual with anything boat related). The Echo Charger sells for about $120. maybe I should not use the word “cheap”, because I think that this is a cheap insurance. But it is not necessarily a “low cost”. After all, you would be spending $120 plus installation, plus rewiring, plus some additional incidental costs in order to save a $100 battery or two. Btw 2. I bet that a few of our (CC List’s) electrical experts would have to say a word or two on the subject. Marek (in Ottawa). From: Edd Schillay via CnC-Listmailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 1:10 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.commailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Mixed batteries Marek, Very interesting. What exactly is an echo charger and how would I connect it? The previous owner had two house bank 31s and a starter battery hooked up parallel to one of them. That starter battery turned out to be dead and was dragging the other down. I replaced all with two new 31s about 4 years ago. Now one of those two is dead and I don’t feel like dumping $300 on a replacement when I’m not running on batteries for more than a few hours on any given day. All the best, Edd Edd M. Schillay Starship Enterprise CC 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B City Island, NY Starship Enterprise's Captain's Loghttp://enterpriseb.blogspot.com/ On May 5, 2014, at 1:01 PM, Marek Dziedzic dziedzi...@hotmail.commailto:dziedzi...@hotmail.com wrote: Edd, I don’t want to start a discussion on how to charge the batteries (as this would be off topic), but starting from the ALL position has some major disadvantages. One is that you might be hiding a problem with your starting battery; two is that if one battery is weak, you would be charging that weak battery from the strong one (you risk that if one is nearly dead, the other would not start the engine, either, but instead would discharge to equalise the voltage with the weak one). No question (in my mind), the best way is to start from the starting battery (hence the name) and have the echo charger making sure that both batteries are charged properly. Some advocate to have the batteries split into “main” and “spare”. Many good marine batteries can be used as dual purpose. If you design your system this way, you start on the “main”, it gets charged by the alternator and the echo charger maintains the “spare”. If I remember correctly, you have a solar system, as well. Many charge controllers have a dual battery option and they can be setup to charge the “main” battery first and then charge the “spare” (mine has a selectable 50/50 or 90/10 split). If you are interested, you can check some of Main Sail’s articles on that topic at Sailboat Owners or at his web site (http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/). Marek (in Ottawa) PS
Re: Stus-List Mixed batteries
I installed a Balmar Digital Duo. Same as Echo Charger but apparently without the BS of a poorly written Manual. It has been a fool proof system for over 7 years David F. Risch 1981 40-2 (401) 419-4650 (cell) Date: Mon, 5 May 2014 17:20:12 -0300 To: dziedzi...@hotmail.com; cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Mixed batteries From: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Marek, this is not a money issue. It's merely a way of making sure that all batteries get due attention and are properly charged. All the people I've converted to this system have never been stuck for power to start their engines. The rant is just that. A rant. Nothing is really wrong, it's just that Xantrex assumes we are not all ignorant. Rich On May 5, 2014, at 14:52, Marek Dziedzic via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: Edd, I am far from being an expert on charging systems, so whatever I say here is based on my personal experience and what I have found from others. The echo charger is a Xantrex device (I bet that others make one like that, as well). WM sells it here: http://www.westmarine.com/triple-blocks/xantrex--echo-charge-battery-charger—333669; Defender here: http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|328|2289962|2289976id=93959 (for $10 less). It seems that it is a device that responds to exactly your issue – how to keep a starting battery charged and separated from the house without any overly complex (and costly) dual battery regulators. Apparently, there is a caveat with it. You may want to read that rant by Main Sail: http://www.sailnet.com/forums/electrical-systems/72295-xantrex-echo-charger-rant.html. There is nothing wrong with the device; only with the instruction manual that comes with it. Btw. Nothing is cheap (as usual with anything boat related). The Echo Charger sells for about $120. maybe I should not use the word “cheap”, because I think that this is a cheap insurance. But it is not necessarily a “low cost”. After all, you would be spending $120 plus installation, plus rewiring, plus some additional incidental costs in order to save a $100 battery or two. Btw 2. I bet that a few of our (CC List’s) electrical experts would have to say a word or two on the subject. Marek (in Ottawa). From: Edd Schillay via CnC-List Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 1:10 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Mixed batteries Marek, Very interesting. What exactly is an echo charger and how would I connect it? The previous owner had two house bank 31s and a starter battery hooked up parallel to one of them. That starter battery turned out to be dead and was dragging the other down. I replaced all with two new 31s about 4 years ago. Now one of those two is dead and I don’t feel like dumping $300 on a replacement when I’m not running on batteries for more than a few hours on any given day. All the best, Edd Edd M. Schillay Starship Enterprise CC 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B City Island, NY Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log On May 5, 2014, at 1:01 PM, Marek Dziedzic dziedzi...@hotmail.com wrote: Edd, I don’t want to start a discussion on how to charge the batteries (as this would be off topic), but starting from the ALL position has some major disadvantages. One is that you might be hiding a problem with your starting battery; two is that if one battery is weak, you would be charging that weak battery from the strong one (you risk that if one is nearly dead, the other would not start the engine, either, but instead would discharge to equalise the voltage with the weak one). No question (in my mind), the best way is to start from the starting battery (hence the name) and have the echo charger making sure that both batteries are charged properly. Some advocate to have the batteries split into “main” and “spare”. Many good marine batteries can be used as dual purpose. If you design your system this way, you start on the “main”, it gets charged by the alternator and the echo charger maintains the “spare”. If I remember correctly, you have a solar system, as well. Many charge controllers have a dual battery option and they can be setup to charge the “main” battery first and then charge the “spare” (mine has a selectable 50/50 or 90/10 split). If you are interested, you can check some of Main Sail’s articles on that topic at Sailboat Owners or at his web site (http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/). Marek (in Ottawa) PS. Would “may the Force (May the 4th) be with you” apply, even if it is a day late? I know it is mixing the references... From: Edd Schillay via CnC-List Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 10:58 AM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Mixed batteries Rich, Please do send around a diagram. I’m planning to do something similar — a 27 starting battery (as battery #2) and a 31
Re: Stus-List Mixed batteries
Yeah, I read it and agree with all points. I just thought it was intuitively obvious, but then again most manuals say things like to avoid electrocution, don't connect this equipment on a live circuit VBG so he probably has a point. You wrote: The rant is just that. A rant. Nothing is really wrong, it's just that Xantrex assumes we are not all ignorant. ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Mixed batteries
His rant made me think that a box of nails should include instructions on how to build a house. Rich On May 5, 2014, at 20:12, Wally Bryant via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: Yeah, I read it and agree with all points. I just thought it was intuitively obvious, but then again most manuals say things like to avoid electrocution, don't connect this equipment on a live circuit VBG so he probably has a point. You wrote: The rant is just that. A rant. Nothing is really wrong, it's just that Xantrex assumes we are not all ignorant. ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
