Re: Stus-List Transmission position while sailing - Yanmar

[Rick Brass via CnC-List]

The proper gear for sailing will depend on the transmission in the boat… and 
probably on the type/brand of propeller.  (My Gori prop suggests shifting to 
reverse to close the prop and then going to neutral. The old Martec needed to 
be in reverse to keep it closed.)

 

Bruce has answered the question for the Yanmar/Kanzaki combination. The manual 
for the Hurth transmission behind my Universal engine says it is best left in 
neutral, but reverse is OK. The Allison transmission on the schooner said to 
keep it in neutral  (as being in gear would damage the clutch discs) but 
strongly recommended a shaft brake to stop the fixed prop from windmilling. (It 
seems counterintuitive, but the manual said a non-rotating fixed blade prop - 
particularly one with 2 blades in a vertical orientation behind the keel - 
generated less drag than a windmilling prop.) Someone already pointed out that 
a Paragon doesn’t get lubricated if the engine is not running. I don’t know 
what a ZF or other transmission might require.

 

But I’m pretty sure that the transmission manufacturer web site or tech support 
will tell you what is correct for your particular combination of prop and 
transmission.

 

Rick Brass

Washington, NC

 

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Josh Muckley 
via CnC-List
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2017 9:31 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Josh Muckley <muckl...@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Stus-List Transmission position while sailing - Yanmar

 

I stand corrected.  Well done Bruce.  I'm still going to be putting mine in 
reverse.  DAMN THE TORPEDOS! 

 

Josh

 

 

On Mon, Sep 18, 2017, 9:18 PM Bruce Whitmore via CnC-List 
<cnc-list@cnc-list.com <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > wrote:

Hi Josh,

 

I was really curious when I read about the proper position of the shifter, and 
found multiple references of the following advisory purportedly from Yanmar as 
follows"

 

And for Yanmar/Kanzaki:

Advisory Number: MSA08-003:

DATE February 8, 2008 Dealers and OEMs
TO: All Marine <http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/tags/marine.html>  
Distributors
SUBJECT: Gear in Neutral While Sailing All MODELS:

All Sailboat Engines

We continue to get questions regarding the correct gear position while sailing 
with the engine OFF. This advisory is issued as a reminder; Yanmar requires 
that if sailing with the engine OFF (not running) the transmission shifter must 
be in the neutral position or internal damage to the gear or sail-drive will 
result. This damage will not be covered by Yanmar’s Limited Warranty. Please 
instruct customers and dealers who deliver the sailboat to the customer, of the 
correct (Neutral) position for the marine 
<http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/tags/marine.html>  gear while sailing.

If the customer desires that the propeller 
<http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/tags/propeller.html>  shaft not spin while 
sailing, either a folding propeller, shaft break, or other suitable device may 
be used. However, Yanmar accepts no responsibility for the selection, 
installation <http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/tags/installation.html> , or 
operation of such devices. Please also refer to Marine service 
<http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/tags/service.html>  advisory 
“MSA07-001_Yanmar Sail Drive Propeller Selection” for additional information.

If you have any questions regarding this advisory please contact a Customer 
Support representative."


The reason for failure mode, as was describe to me, is that in reverse the 
clutch <http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/tags/clutch.html>  cones can 
chatter, quiver or vibrate against one another causing wear which eventually 
leads to slippage and a gear box re-build. Many already know how difficult a 
Kanzaki <http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/tags/kanzaki.html>  can be to get 
out of reverse after sailing with it locked.

Here's a quote from the SBO forums 
<http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/tags/forums.html> :

Quote:

 

Originally Posted by glengrey 

Unfortunately I can attest to the proper Yanmar gear position. In the summer of 
2008 my transmission (Kansaki on a 3GM30F engine) started slipping. Engine had 
440 hours. always placed gear in reverse when sailing. After considerable 
discussion with Yamnar they advised they would not consider warranty (was 
passed the hours for that anyway). Upshot is new transmission. They advised 
that the cone clutch <http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/tags/clutch.html>  
does "quiver" (my term) even though locked into reverse, producing wear and 
eventually slippage.

 

I don't like believing everything I read on the internet, but I kept coming 
across this advisory.

 

Hope this helps, 

Bruce Whitmore

(847) 404-5092 (mobile)
bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net <mailto:bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net> 

 


  _  


From: Josh Muckley via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
<mail

Re: Stus-List Transmission position while sailing - Yanmar

[John McKay via CnC-List]

I put the transmission in reverse. Have a folding prop. If not in reverse you 
can hear the prop and there is a vibration.
John on EnterpriseKomoka Ont.
 

On Monday, September 18, 2017 9:31 PM, Josh Muckley via CnC-List 
 wrote:
 

 I stand corrected.  Well done Bruce.  I'm still going to be putting mine in 
reverse.  DAMN THE TORPEDOS! 
Josh


On Mon, Sep 18, 2017, 9:18 PM Bruce Whitmore via CnC-List 
 wrote:

Hi Josh,
I was really curious when I read about the proper position of the shifter, and 
found multiple references of the following advisory purportedly from Yanmar as 
follows"
And for Yanmar/Kanzaki:

Advisory Number: MSA08-003:

DATE February 8, 2008 Dealers and OEMs
TO: All Marine Distributors
SUBJECT: Gear in Neutral While Sailing All MODELS:

All Sailboat Engines

We continue to get questions regarding the correct gear position while sailing 
with the engine OFF. This advisory is issued as a reminder; Yanmar requires 
that if sailing with the engine OFF (not running) the transmission shifter must 
be in the neutral position or internal damage to the gear or sail-drive will 
result. This damage will not be covered by Yanmar’s Limited Warranty. Please 
instruct customers and dealers who deliver the sailboat to the customer, of the 
correct (Neutral) position for the marine gear while sailing.

If the customer desires that the propeller shaft not spin while sailing, either 
a folding propeller, shaft break, or other suitable device may be used. 
However, Yanmar accepts no responsibility for the selection, installation, or 
operation of such devices. Please also refer to Marine service advisory 
“MSA07-001_Yanmar Sail Drive Propeller Selection” for additional information.

If you have any questions regarding this advisory please contact a Customer 
Support representative."


The reason for failure mode, as was describe to me, is that in reverse the 
clutch cones can chatter, quiver or vibrate against one another causing wear 
which eventually leads to slippage and a gear box re-build. Many already know 
how difficult a Kanzaki can be to get out of reverse after sailing with it 
locked.

Here's a quote from the SBO forums:
Quote:
Originally Posted by glengreyUnfortunately I can attest to the proper Yanmar 
gear position. In the summer of 2008 my transmission (Kansaki on a 3GM30F 
engine) started slipping. Engine had 440 hours. always placed gear in reverse 
when sailing. After considerable discussion with Yamnar they advised they would 
not consider warranty (was passed the hours for that anyway). Upshot is new 
transmission. They advised that the cone clutch does "quiver" (my term) even 
though locked into reverse, producing wear and eventually slippage.
I don't like believing everything I read on the internet, but I kept coming 
across this advisory.
Hope this helps, 
Bruce Whitmore

(847) 404-5092 (mobile)
bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net


  From: Josh Muckley via CnC-List 
 To: C List  
Cc: Josh Muckley 
 Sent: Monday, September 18, 2017 9:12 PM
 Subject: Re: Stus-List Transmission position while sailing
  
Folding and feathering props can stay open if you don't stop the shaft by 
putting it in reverse.  With a fixed prop you can reduce drag by "trailing the 
shaft" and leaving it in neutral.  The problem is that some transmissions don't 
get properly lubricated in this condition (IIRC: paragon?)  Reverse should 
always be fine no matter what engine/transmission.
Josh MuckleyS/V Sea Hawk1989 C 37+Solomons, MD
On Sep 18, 2017 7:16 PM, "schiller via CnC-List"  wrote:

  OK, gang.  I know this has been discussed before but help me out.  With the 
Universal M-25XPB in Corsair, the manuals said to shift he transmission into 
reverse after shut down while sailing.  Withe the new Yanmar in Grace (C 35, 
Mark III), what is the prevailing wisdom as to transmission selection after 
shutdown while sailing.  I instinctively put the transmission in reverse but 
can not find any Yanmar documentation as to what they recommend.
 
 Neil Schiller
 1983 C 35, Mark III, #028
 "Grace"
 White Lake, Michigan
 Scheduled for haulout 6 October
  
__ _

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  https://www.paypal.me/ 
stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!


___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!


   ___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

Re: Stus-List Transmission position while sailing - Yanmar

[Josh Muckley via CnC-List]

I stand corrected.  Well done Bruce.  I'm still going to be putting mine in
reverse.  DAMN THE TORPEDOS!

Josh



On Mon, Sep 18, 2017, 9:18 PM Bruce Whitmore via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Hi Josh,
>
> I was really curious when I read about the proper position of the shifter,
> and found multiple references of the following advisory purportedly from
> Yanmar as follows"
>
> And for Yanmar/Kanzaki:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *Advisory Number: MSA08-003: DATE February 8, 2008 Dealers and OEMs TO:
> All Marine 
> Distributors SUBJECT: Gear in Neutral While Sailing All MODELS: All
> Sailboat Engines We continue to get questions regarding the correct gear
> position while sailing with the engine OFF. This advisory is issued as a
> reminder; Yanmar requires that if sailing with the engine OFF (not running)
> the transmission shifter must be in the neutral position or internal damage
> to the gear or sail-drive will result. This damage will not be covered by
> Yanmar’s Limited Warranty. Please instruct customers and dealers who
> deliver the sailboat to the customer, of the correct (Neutral) position for
> the marine  gear
> while sailing. If the customer desires that the propeller
>  shaft not spin
> while sailing, either a folding propeller, shaft break, or other suitable
> device may be used. However, Yanmar accepts no responsibility for the
> selection, installation
> , or operation
> of such devices. Please also refer to Marine service
>  advisory
> “MSA07-001_Yanmar Sail Drive Propeller Selection” for additional
> information. If you have any questions regarding this advisory please
> contact a Customer Support representative." *
>
> The reason for failure mode, as was describe to me, is that in reverse the
> clutch  cones can
> chatter, quiver or vibrate against one another causing wear which
> eventually leads to slippage and a gear box re-build. Many already know how
> difficult a Kanzaki
>  can be to get out
> of reverse after sailing with it locked.
>
> Here's a quote from the SBO forums
> :
> Quote:
>
> Originally Posted by *glengrey*
> *Unfortunately I can attest to the proper Yanmar gear position. In the
> summer of 2008 my transmission (Kansaki on a 3GM30F engine) started
> slipping. Engine had 440 hours. always placed gear in reverse when sailing.
> After considerable discussion with Yamnar they advised they would not
> consider warranty (was passed the hours for that anyway). Upshot is new
> transmission. They advised that the cone clutch
>  does "quiver" (my
> term) even though locked into reverse, producing wear and eventually
> slippage.*
>
> I don't like believing everything I read on the internet, but I kept
> coming across this advisory.
>
> Hope this helps,
> Bruce Whitmore
>
> (847) 404-5092 (mobile)
> bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net
>
>
> --
> *From:* Josh Muckley via CnC-List 
> *To:* C List 
> *Cc:* Josh Muckley 
> *Sent:* Monday, September 18, 2017 9:12 PM
> *Subject:* Re: Stus-List Transmission position while sailing
>
> Folding and feathering props can stay open if you don't stop the shaft by
> putting it in reverse.  With a fixed prop you can reduce drag by "trailing
> the shaft" and leaving it in neutral.  The problem is that some
> transmissions don't get properly lubricated in this condition (IIRC:
> paragon?)  Reverse should always be fine no matter what
> engine/transmission.
>
> Josh Muckley
> S/V Sea Hawk
> 1989 C 37+
> Solomons, MD
>
> On Sep 18, 2017 7:16 PM, "schiller via CnC-List" 
> wrote:
>
> OK, gang.  I know this has been discussed before but help me out.  With
> the Universal M-25XPB in Corsair, the manuals said to shift he transmission
> into reverse after shut down while sailing.  Withe the new Yanmar in Grace
> (C 35, Mark III), what is the prevailing wisdom as to transmission
> selection after shutdown while sailing.  I instinctively put the
> transmission in reverse but can not find any Yanmar documentation as to
> what they recommend.
>
> Neil Schiller
> 1983 C 35, Mark III, #028
> "Grace"
> White Lake, Michigan
> Scheduled for haulout 6 October
>
> __ _
>
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
> wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
> https://www.paypal.me/
> stumurray 
>
> All Contributions are greatly 

Re: Stus-List Transmission position while sailing - Yanmar

[Bruce Whitmore via CnC-List]

Hi Josh,
I was really curious when I read about the proper position of the shifter, and 
found multiple references of the following advisory purportedly from Yanmar as 
follows"
And for Yanmar/Kanzaki:

Advisory Number: MSA08-003:

DATE February 8, 2008 Dealers and OEMs
TO: All Marine Distributors
SUBJECT: Gear in Neutral While Sailing All MODELS:

All Sailboat Engines

We continue to get questions regarding the correct gear position while sailing 
with the engine OFF. This advisory is issued as a reminder; Yanmar requires 
that if sailing with the engine OFF (not running) the transmission shifter must 
be in the neutral position or internal damage to the gear or sail-drive will 
result. This damage will not be covered by Yanmar’s Limited Warranty. Please 
instruct customers and dealers who deliver the sailboat to the customer, of the 
correct (Neutral) position for the marine gear while sailing.

If the customer desires that the propeller shaft not spin while sailing, either 
a folding propeller, shaft break, or other suitable device may be used. 
However, Yanmar accepts no responsibility for the selection, installation, or 
operation of such devices. Please also refer to Marine service advisory 
“MSA07-001_Yanmar Sail Drive Propeller Selection” for additional information.

If you have any questions regarding this advisory please contact a Customer 
Support representative."


The reason for failure mode, as was describe to me, is that in reverse the 
clutch cones can chatter, quiver or vibrate against one another causing wear 
which eventually leads to slippage and a gear box re-build. Many already know 
how difficult a Kanzaki can be to get out of reverse after sailing with it 
locked.

Here's a quote from the SBO forums:
Quote:
Originally Posted by glengreyUnfortunately I can attest to the proper Yanmar 
gear position. In the summer of 2008 my transmission (Kansaki on a 3GM30F 
engine) started slipping. Engine had 440 hours. always placed gear in reverse 
when sailing. After considerable discussion with Yamnar they advised they would 
not consider warranty (was passed the hours for that anyway). Upshot is new 
transmission. They advised that the cone clutch does "quiver" (my term) even 
though locked into reverse, producing wear and eventually slippage.
I don't like believing everything I read on the internet, but I kept coming 
across this advisory.
Hope this helps, 
Bruce Whitmore

(847) 404-5092 (mobile)
bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net


  From: Josh Muckley via CnC-List 
 To: C List  
Cc: Josh Muckley 
 Sent: Monday, September 18, 2017 9:12 PM
 Subject: Re: Stus-List Transmission position while sailing
   
Folding and feathering props can stay open if you don't stop the shaft by 
putting it in reverse.  With a fixed prop you can reduce drag by "trailing the 
shaft" and leaving it in neutral.  The problem is that some transmissions don't 
get properly lubricated in this condition (IIRC: paragon?)  Reverse should 
always be fine no matter what engine/transmission.
Josh MuckleyS/V Sea Hawk1989 C 37+Solomons, MD
On Sep 18, 2017 7:16 PM, "schiller via CnC-List"  wrote:

  OK, gang.  I know this has been discussed before but help me out.  With the 
Universal M-25XPB in Corsair, the manuals said to shift he transmission into 
reverse after shut down while sailing.  Withe the new Yanmar in Grace (C 35, 
Mark III), what is the prevailing wisdom as to transmission selection after 
shutdown while sailing.  I instinctively put the transmission in reverse but 
can not find any Yanmar documentation as to what they recommend.
 
 Neil Schiller
 1983 C 35, Mark III, #028
 "Grace"
 White Lake, Michigan
 Scheduled for haulout 6 October
  
__ _

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  https://www.paypal.me/ 
stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!


___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!


   ___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!