Re: Stus-List replacing cockpit drain thru hulls 30 MK1
The correct approach in my opinion. I always figured that the whole point to having straight pipe threads in the first place was so that you could make something like a compression flange fitting in one part and then cut a regular tapered thread on the end. Makes a lot of sense for tanks, and a boat is kind of like an inside out tank. Steve Thomas C Merritt Island, FL Russ & Melody via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: In a re-fit many years ago I looked for replacement thru-hulls. After not having success finding a replacement I got a NPT cutter head for a 'Rigid' pipe threading machine, from the local rental shop. You can adjust the "bite" of the cutter so I started off loose and cut some taper threads by hand. With the replacement ball valve nearby I kept at it until there was the desired fit. After the first one the rest were easy. So, now my C original thru-hulls, which were in good shape, are taper thread. Cheers, Russ Sweet 35 mk-1 Vancouver Island At 08:33 PM 26/02/2016, you wrote: >I think finding bronze NPS (straight) threaded >ball valves is a difficult task. For example, >every single valve sold by Defender is NPT (taper). > > >From: <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>Rick Brass via CnC-List >Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 3:02 PM >To: <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>cnc-list@cnc-list.com >Cc: <mailto:rickbr...@earthlink.net>Rick Brass >Subject: Re: Stus-List replacing cockpit drain thru hulls 30 MK1 > >Joe; > >The bad news is I donât believe that anyone >makes the flush thru hulls used on our classic >C anymore. All the ones I have seen are a >smaller OD than the recesses in our hulls. > >The good news is that you rarely need to replace >a bronze thru hull. You just need one of the >thru hull step wrenches shown on page 118 of the >Buck Algonquin catalog and a strong helper to >hold the step wrench on the outside of the boat >while you remove the old valve from the threads >of the existing thru hull from inside the hull. >(you can also buy one at Lowes or Home Depot, >but it is called a plumberâs step wrench or something similar) > >Both my boats came with brass gate valves on >most of the thru hulls, instead of proper >seacocks. When I got my 25, back in 1994, I >launched into replacing the gate valves, >starting with the cockpit scuppers. I screwed up >both the thru hulls because of my ignorance, and >had a heck of a time finding a flush thru hull >to replace the ones I had to cut out of the hull. > >I finally found a pair of thru hulls at a >chandlery in NJ, across the river from Philly >a place sort of like an OLD hardware store with >lots of out of date hardware in stock. (Donât >you love poking around in those sort of places?) >And the guy at the chandlery explained how you >are supposed to get the old valve off the thru >hull without damaging the thru hull. Once I >bought the wrench, replacing all the valves was pretty straight forward. > >BTW, the thru hulls should be bronze, not brass. >And the seacocks should be either bronze or >Marlon. You donât want to use brass if you are >in salt or brackish water. Thru hulls come with >straight threads. So do proper seacocks. Most of >my thru hulls were clamped to the wood backing >plates with a nut, so I did not have to use >seacocks with a flange on them. But I have >learned that ball valves intended for plumbing >come with tapered threads, so I had to make sure >I ordered ball valves with straight threads that >matched the threads on the thru hull. > >Rick Brass >Imzadi C 38 mk 2 >la Belle Aurore C 25 mk1 >Washington, NC > > > > > >From: CnC-List >[mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Joel Aronson via CnC-List >Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 12:59 PM >To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com >Cc: Joel Aronson <joel.aron...@gmail.com> >Subject: Re: Stus-List replacing cockpit drain thru hulls 30 MK1 > >Try here: > ><http://www.buckalgonquin.com/pdf/catalog.pdf>http://www.buckalgonquin.com/pdf/catalog.pdf > >The company is near us. > >Joel > >On Fri, Feb 26, 2016 at 12:52 PM, Joe at >Zialater via CnC-List ><<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: >I am trying to find the mfg. for the cockpit drain brass thru hulls on my >1975 30 MK1. > >They are flush to the bottom of the hull and have a flange diameter of 3.5 >inches and a 1.25 inch hole. I have tried Groco and Perko but neither has >the correct size although they both have brass flush mount versions. > >Does anyone have a suggestion on where I might find the original >replacement. I would hate to have to modify th
Re: Stus-List replacing cockpit drain thru hulls 30 MK1
IMO, 5200 doesn't belong anywhere near a thru-hull. If mine had been put in with 5200 I doubt I would have been able to get them out to replace the backing plates. And since (as I have said) they were in poor condition they had to come out. As it was with a Groco step wrench and a bit of heat applied (heat gun) they backed out easily. What wasn't easy was the retaining nut. There was also no way, no how, no possibility of getting the retaining nut off the back without cutting it off. -Original Message- From: Joe at Zialater via CnC-List Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2016 10:56 AM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: Joe at Zialater Subject: Re: Stus-List replacing cockpit drain thru hulls 30 MK1 Thanks so much for all the info Rick. I have some Groco flushmount thru hulls that will fit the hole but have a flange diameter that is smaller than the originals (whatever brand they might be). I also have the Groco ball valves that fit on the thru hulls and will work fine for the drains. The current plan is to install the new smaller diameter flanges and fill in the 1/4 inch gap with epoxy or maybe even 5200. Then paint over it and forget it! Thanks Joel for the buckalgonquin link - they have flushmount thru hulls as well but they are essentially the same size as the Grocos. "Re: Contents of CnC-List digest..." Forespar make Marlon ball valves with NPS threads in sizes from ?? to 1 ??. (They also make ball valves with NPT, but NPT valves are for plumbing and not thru hulls.) They also supply a range of tailpieces to connect the valve to a hose. Here is a link to the listing on West Marine: http://www.westmarine.com/buy/forespar--marelon-ball-valves-tailpieces--P011 _332_003_009 In addition, there is a regional marine supply wholesaler called the Paxton Company in my area (in Norfolk and Wilmington, NC), and if I recall correctly the bronze valves I used came from there. So bronze ball valves with NPS are available, if a bit hard to come by. I suspect that most of the time a flanged seacock gets used instead of installing a nut on the seacock to secure it to the hull and a separate ball valve above the nut. The bronze seacocks aren?t a lot more expensive than a bronze valve. And BTW, on the WM site they have a flange (Groco I think) with NPS on the bottom and a pipe thread coming off the top. When I redid the plumbing on my 38 a few years ago, I used Marlon valves for the larger thru hulls ? 1? and larger if I recall. The Marlon valves are designed for some ridiculous number of cycles, tested for impact and gear to hit them with lateral impact, you can actually stand on them, they never corrode, and they are about half the cost of a bronze seacock. Maybe I?m just being cheap, but I?m also pretty satisfied. ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List replacing cockpit drain thru hulls 30 MK1
My posts not going through or what?? Because there seems to be a whole lot of repetition of info happening here. From: Peter Fell Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 3:12 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List replacing cockpit drain thru hulls 30 MK1 We just had a discussion here on the listserv early February on exactly the same question for exactly the same boat. So I’d suggest searching your inbox (or archives) for that thread. But I’ll reiterate my experience when I did this a couple years ago on my 27 ... I didn’t find any flush mount thru-hull that had the same size flange and my existing ones were not in a condition that I wanted to reuse them. So, yes, I epoxy-filled the ‘cups’ left behind by the old flush-mounts and installed Groco mushroom-style thru-hulls and matching ball valves. I used marine plywood for the backing plates, shaped to fit the curvature of the hull and epoxy-coated. Bedded in Sikaflex 291 (think that was the one). At the time I did not go the route of using the matching Groco flange adapter bases with either studs (requires a fiberglass backing plate) or through-bolt (can use wood backing plate) but the Groco thru-hulls are tapered threads so that you get a decent amount of thread engagement with the valve. I don’t think thru-hulls from most other manufacturers are tapered so you might be running with only 2 or 3 threads of engagement. Same potentially for the original C thru-hulls. I may actually go back and retro-fit with the flange adapters for the cockpit drains and engine intake since they are in the area of the boat most prone to potential damage, that the much more robust flange adapter would protect against. Good resource is the pbase articles from compass marine. Another thing I didn’t do install a stainless Zerk Grease Gun Fitting (1/8-27 thread) on each valve (there’s a drain hole on the Grocos). This let’s you grease the ball valves without pulling the boat. Groco recommends using Dow Corning MolyCote 111 (silicone based) – that’s what they use in the factory. Peter Fell Sidney, BC Cygnet C 27 MkIII From: Joel Aronson via CnC-List Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 9:59 AM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: Joel Aronson Subject: Re: Stus-List replacing cockpit drain thru hulls 30 MK1 Try here: http://www.buckalgonquin.com/pdf/catalog.pdf The company is near us. Joel On Fri, Feb 26, 2016 at 12:52 PM, Joe at Zialater via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: I am trying to find the mfg. for the cockpit drain brass thru hulls on my 1975 30 MK1. They are flush to the bottom of the hull and have a flange diameter of 3.5 inches and a 1.25 inch hole. I have tried Groco and Perko but neither has the correct size although they both have brass flush mount versions. Does anyone have a suggestion on where I might find the original replacement. I would hate to have to modify the hole or use epoxy to make a non-original thru hull fit. Thanks for any ideas on this. Joe Zia - 1975 C 30 MK1 Annapolis ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com -- Joel 301 541 8551 ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List replacing cockpit drain thru hulls 30 MK1
Forespar make Marlon ball valves with NPS threads in sizes from ½” to 1 ½”. (They also make ball valves with NPT, but NPT valves are for plumbing and not thru hulls.) They also supply a range of tailpieces to connect the valve to a hose. Here is a link to the listing on West Marine: http://www.westmarine.com/buy/forespar--marelon-ball-valves-tailpieces--P011_332_003_009 In addition, there is a regional marine supply wholesaler called the Paxton Company in my area (in Norfolk and Wilmington, NC), and if I recall correctly the bronze valves I used came from there. So bronze ball valves with NPS are available, if a bit hard to come by. I suspect that most of the time a flanged seacock gets used instead of installing a nut on the seacock to secure it to the hull and a separate ball valve above the nut. The bronze seacocks aren’t a lot more expensive than a bronze valve. And BTW, on the WM site they have a flange (Groco I think) with NPS on the bottom and a pipe thread coming off the top. When I redid the plumbing on my 38 a few years ago, I used Marlon valves for the larger thru hulls – 1” and larger if I recall. The Marlon valves are designed for some ridiculous number of cycles, tested for impact and gear to hit them with lateral impact, you can actually stand on them, they never corrode, and they are about half the cost of a bronze seacock. Maybe I’m just being cheap, but I’m also pretty satisfied. Rick Brass Washington, NC From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Peter Fell via CnC-List Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 11:34 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: Peter Fell <prf...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Stus-List replacing cockpit drain thru hulls 30 MK1 I think finding bronze NPS (straight) threaded ball valves is a difficult task. For example, every single valve sold by Defender is NPT (taper). From: Rick Brass via CnC-List <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 3:02 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> Cc: Rick Brass <mailto:rickbr...@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Stus-List replacing cockpit drain thru hulls 30 MK1 Joe; The bad news is I don’t believe that anyone makes the flush thru hulls used on our classic C anymore. All the ones I have seen are a smaller OD than the recesses in our hulls. The good news is that you rarely need to replace a bronze thru hull. You just need one of the thru hull step wrenches shown on page 118 of the Buck Algonquin catalog and a strong helper to hold the step wrench on the outside of the boat while you remove the old valve from the threads of the existing thru hull from inside the hull. (you can also buy one at Lowes or Home Depot, but it is called a plumber’s step wrench or something similar) Both my boats came with brass gate valves on most of the thru hulls, instead of proper seacocks. When I got my 25, back in 1994, I launched into replacing the gate valves, starting with the cockpit scuppers. I screwed up both the thru hulls because of my ignorance, and had a heck of a time finding a flush thru hull to replace the ones I had to cut out of the hull. I finally found a pair of thru hulls at a chandlery in NJ, across the river from Philly – a place sort of like an OLD hardware store with lots of out of date hardware in stock. (Don’t you love poking around in those sort of places?) And the guy at the chandlery explained how you are supposed to get the old valve off the thru hull without damaging the thru hull. Once I bought the wrench, replacing all the valves was pretty straight forward. BTW, the thru hulls should be bronze, not brass. And the seacocks should be either bronze or Marlon. You don’t want to use brass if you are in salt or brackish water. Thru hulls come with straight threads. So do proper seacocks. Most of my thru hulls were clamped to the wood backing plates with a nut, so I did not have to use seacocks with a flange on them. But I have learned that ball valves intended for plumbing come with tapered threads, so I had to make sure I ordered ball valves with straight threads that matched the threads on the thru hull. Rick Brass Imzadi C 38 mk 2 la Belle Aurore C 25 mk1 Washington, NC From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Joel Aronson via CnC-List Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 12:59 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> Cc: Joel Aronson <joel.aron...@gmail.com <mailto:joel.aron...@gmail.com> > Subject: Re: Stus-List replacing cockpit drain thru hulls 30 MK1 Try here: http://www.buckalgonquin.com/pdf/catalog.pdf The company is near us. Joel On Fri, Feb 26, 2016 at 12:52 PM, Joe at Zialater via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > wrote: I am trying to find the mfg. for the cockpit dra
Re: Stus-List replacing cockpit drain thru hulls 30 MK1
In a re-fit many years ago I looked for replacement thru-hulls. After not having success finding a replacement I got a NPT cutter head for a 'Rigid' pipe threading machine, from the local rental shop. You can adjust the "bite" of the cutter so I started off loose and cut some taper threads by hand. With the replacement ball valve nearby I kept at it until there was the desired fit. After the first one the rest were easy. So, now my C original thru-hulls, which were in good shape, are taper thread. Cheers, Russ Sweet 35 mk-1 Vancouver Island At 08:33 PM 26/02/2016, you wrote: I think finding bronze NPS (straight) threaded ball valves is a difficult task. For example, every single valve sold by Defender is NPT (taper). From: <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>Rick Brass via CnC-List Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 3:02 PM To: <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: <mailto:rickbr...@earthlink.net>Rick Brass Subject: Re: Stus-List replacing cockpit drain thru hulls 30 MK1 Joe; The bad news is I donât believe that anyone makes the flush thru hulls used on our classic C anymore. All the ones I have seen are a smaller OD than the recesses in our hulls. The good news is that you rarely need to replace a bronze thru hull. You just need one of the thru hull step wrenches shown on page 118 of the Buck Algonquin catalog and a strong helper to hold the step wrench on the outside of the boat while you remove the old valve from the threads of the existing thru hull from inside the hull. (you can also buy one at Lowes or Home Depot, but it is called a plumberâs step wrench or something similar) Both my boats came with brass gate valves on most of the thru hulls, instead of proper seacocks. When I got my 25, back in 1994, I launched into replacing the gate valves, starting with the cockpit scuppers. I screwed up both the thru hulls because of my ignorance, and had a heck of a time finding a flush thru hull to replace the ones I had to cut out of the hull. I finally found a pair of thru hulls at a chandlery in NJ, across the river from Philly a place sort of like an OLD hardware store with lots of out of date hardware in stock. (Donât you love poking around in those sort of places?) And the guy at the chandlery explained how you are supposed to get the old valve off the thru hull without damaging the thru hull. Once I bought the wrench, replacing all the valves was pretty straight forward. BTW, the thru hulls should be bronze, not brass. And the seacocks should be either bronze or Marlon. You donât want to use brass if you are in salt or brackish water. Thru hulls come with straight threads. So do proper seacocks. Most of my thru hulls were clamped to the wood backing plates with a nut, so I did not have to use seacocks with a flange on them. But I have learned that ball valves intended for plumbing come with tapered threads, so I had to make sure I ordered ball valves with straight threads that matched the threads on the thru hull. Rick Brass Imzadi C 38 mk 2 la Belle Aurore C 25 mk1 Washington, NC From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Joel Aronson via CnC-List Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 12:59 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: Joel Aronson <joel.aron...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Stus-List replacing cockpit drain thru hulls 30 MK1 Try here: <http://www.buckalgonquin.com/pdf/catalog.pdf>http://www.buckalgonquin.com/pdf/catalog.pdf The company is near us. Joel On Fri, Feb 26, 2016 at 12:52 PM, Joe at Zialater via CnC-List <<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: I am trying to find the mfg. for the cockpit drain brass thru hulls on my 1975 30 MK1. They are flush to the bottom of the hull and have a flange diameter of 3.5 inches and a 1.25 inch hole. I have tried Groco and Perko but neither has the correct size although they both have brass flush mount versions. Does anyone have a suggestion on where I might find the original replacement. I would hate to have to modify the hole or use epoxy to make a non-original thru hull fit. Thanks for any ideas on this. Joe Zia - 1975 C 30 MK1 Annapolis ___ Email address: <mailto:CnC-List@cnc-list.com>CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: <http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com>http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com -- Joel 301 541 8551 -- ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List replacing cockpit drain thru hulls 30 MK1
I think finding bronze NPS (straight) threaded ball valves is a difficult task. For example, every single valve sold by Defender is NPT (taper). From: Rick Brass via CnC-List Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 3:02 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: Rick Brass Subject: Re: Stus-List replacing cockpit drain thru hulls 30 MK1 Joe; The bad news is I don’t believe that anyone makes the flush thru hulls used on our classic C anymore. All the ones I have seen are a smaller OD than the recesses in our hulls. The good news is that you rarely need to replace a bronze thru hull. You just need one of the thru hull step wrenches shown on page 118 of the Buck Algonquin catalog and a strong helper to hold the step wrench on the outside of the boat while you remove the old valve from the threads of the existing thru hull from inside the hull. (you can also buy one at Lowes or Home Depot, but it is called a plumber’s step wrench or something similar) Both my boats came with brass gate valves on most of the thru hulls, instead of proper seacocks. When I got my 25, back in 1994, I launched into replacing the gate valves, starting with the cockpit scuppers. I screwed up both the thru hulls because of my ignorance, and had a heck of a time finding a flush thru hull to replace the ones I had to cut out of the hull. I finally found a pair of thru hulls at a chandlery in NJ, across the river from Philly – a place sort of like an OLD hardware store with lots of out of date hardware in stock. (Don’t you love poking around in those sort of places?) And the guy at the chandlery explained how you are supposed to get the old valve off the thru hull without damaging the thru hull. Once I bought the wrench, replacing all the valves was pretty straight forward. BTW, the thru hulls should be bronze, not brass. And the seacocks should be either bronze or Marlon. You don’t want to use brass if you are in salt or brackish water. Thru hulls come with straight threads. So do proper seacocks. Most of my thru hulls were clamped to the wood backing plates with a nut, so I did not have to use seacocks with a flange on them. But I have learned that ball valves intended for plumbing come with tapered threads, so I had to make sure I ordered ball valves with straight threads that matched the threads on the thru hull. Rick Brass Imzadi C 38 mk 2 la Belle Aurore C 25 mk1 Washington, NC From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Joel Aronson via CnC-List Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 12:59 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: Joel Aronson <joel.aron...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Stus-List replacing cockpit drain thru hulls 30 MK1 Try here: http://www.buckalgonquin.com/pdf/catalog.pdf The company is near us. Joel On Fri, Feb 26, 2016 at 12:52 PM, Joe at Zialater via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: I am trying to find the mfg. for the cockpit drain brass thru hulls on my 1975 30 MK1. They are flush to the bottom of the hull and have a flange diameter of 3.5 inches and a 1.25 inch hole. I have tried Groco and Perko but neither has the correct size although they both have brass flush mount versions. Does anyone have a suggestion on where I might find the original replacement. I would hate to have to modify the hole or use epoxy to make a non-original thru hull fit. Thanks for any ideas on this. Joe Zia - 1975 C 30 MK1 Annapolis ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com -- Joel 301 541 8551 ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List replacing cockpit drain thru hulls 30 MK1
Try here: http://www.buckalgonquin.com/pdf/catalog.pdf The company is near us. Joel On Fri, Feb 26, 2016 at 12:52 PM, Joe at Zialater via CnC-List < cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: > I am trying to find the mfg. for the cockpit drain brass thru hulls on my > 1975 30 MK1. > > They are flush to the bottom of the hull and have a flange diameter of 3.5 > inches and a 1.25 inch hole. I have tried Groco and Perko but neither has > the correct size although they both have brass flush mount versions. > > Does anyone have a suggestion on where I might find the original > replacement. I would hate to have to modify the hole or use epoxy to make > a > non-original thru hull fit. > > Thanks for any ideas on this. > > Joe > > Zia - 1975 C 30 MK1 > Annapolis > > > > ___ > > Email address: > CnC-List@cnc-list.com > To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the > bottom of page at: > http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com > > -- Joel 301 541 8551 ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
