Stus-List Re: Chainplate Sealing - now sealants in general

[Dennis C. via CnC-List]

On Mon, Apr 18, 2022 at 4:57 AM dwight veinot via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Dennis. Your messages to the list come to me with a yellow warning. I
> don't understand why. You been posting good information for many years on
> the C list. The warning has appeared on you recent posts.
>
>
> Do the flagged posts all contain links?

I'm clueless.  Nothing has changed in my cyber system.

-- 
Dennis C.
Touche' 35-1 #83
Mandeville, LA

Stus-List Re: Chainplate Sealing - now sealants in general

[Matthew via CnC-List]

Thank you to all who responded.  Sounds like butyl is the unanimous
recommendation for this application.  I have some "bed-it" laying around
somewhere, but as I recall it is thin and not very wide, and only comes in
one size.  I probably need something thicker and wider for this application.

 

Any suggestions on a brand?

 

From: Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List  
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2022 7:26 PM
To: 'Stus-List' 
Cc: Jeffrey A. Laman 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Chainplate Sealing - now sealants in general

 

My experience also.  Butyl.

Another observation -- some have posted that they plan to wrap a chainplate
in wax paper and cast it in epoxy.  This is not a good scheme as now your
sealant is hard epoxy.  Water will wick down the joint.  Leave a 1/8" to
1/4" gap around anything that penetrates the deck to allow butyl to seal the
joint.

 

Jeff Laman

1981 C

Harmony

Ludington, MI

  _  

From: John Read via CnC-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> >
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2022 7:16 PM
To: 'Stus-List' mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> >
Cc: John Read mailto:johnprea...@gmail.com> >
Subject: Stus-List Re: Chainplate Sealing - now sealants in general 

 

Butyl

 

In my experience it is the only sealant that will stay adhered to stainless
and still allow movement

 

John Read

Legacy III

1982 C 34

Noank, CT

 

From: dwight veinot via CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com] 
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2022 6:53 PM
To: Stus-List
Cc: dwight veinot
Subject: Stus-List Re: Chainplate Sealing - now sealants in general

 

Butyl tape

 

On Sun, Apr 17, 2022 at 11:39 AM Matthew via CnC-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > wrote:

Stus-List Re: Chainplate Sealing - now sealants in general

[dwight veinot via CnC-List]

Dennis. Your messages to the list come to me with a yellow warning. I don't
understand why. You been posting good information for many years on the C
list. The warning has appeared on you recent posts.

On Tue, Mar 22, 2022 at 3:51 PM Dennis C. via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Some thoughts on sealants.  Sealants are primarily silicone, polysulfide,
> polyurethane and blends of them.  Add to that butyl rubber.
>
> First, as a rule, I like butyl for any hardware that has the potential to
> flex or move.  Chainplates fit that criteria.
>
> My default sealant for most everything else except plastic is LifeSeal.
> For plastic I generally use silicone.
>
> Here's a reference for where to use sealants:
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/12WmFxRiqzUw2xiqLaEtfBpS1pYocZID-/view?usp=sharing
>
> Note that Life Calk is a polysulfide.  Do not use polysulfide for plastic.
> LifeSeal is a blend of silicone and polyurethane.
> 4200 is polyurethane.  I don't use 4200.  Got too many partially cured
> tubes.  Look at the expiration date before you buy.
>
> 5200 is NOT a sealant.  It's an adhesive.  From the 3M website:
>
> "3M™ Marine Adhesive Sealant 5200 is a one-component, high-strength,
> moisture-curing, gap-filling polyurethane for permanent bonding of wood,
> gelcoat and fiberglass."  Note the word "permanent"!
>
> A bit off the subject, but Flexpaste seems to fix gouges in rubber rub
> rails fairly well.  Who'd a thunk it?  An "as seen on TV product" that
> actually works on a boat!
> --
> Dennis C.
> Touche' 35-1 #83
> Mandeville, LA
>
-- 
Sent from Gmail Mobile

Stus-List Re: Chainplate Sealing - now sealants in general

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

My experience also.  Butyl.
Another observation -- some have posted that they plan to wrap a chainplate in 
wax paper and cast it in epoxy.  This is not a good scheme as now your sealant 
is hard epoxy.  Water will wick down the joint.  Leave a 1/8" to 1/4" gap 
around anything that penetrates the deck to allow butyl to seal the joint.

Jeff Laman
1981 C
Harmony
Ludington, MI

From: John Read via CnC-List 
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2022 7:16 PM
To: 'Stus-List' 
Cc: John Read 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Chainplate Sealing - now sealants in general


Butyl



In my experience it is the only sealant that will stay adhered to stainless and 
still allow movement



John Read

Legacy III

1982 C 34

Noank, CT



From: dwight veinot via CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com]
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2022 6:53 PM
To: Stus-List
Cc: dwight veinot
Subject: Stus-List Re: Chainplate Sealing - now sealants in general



Butyl tape



On Sun, Apr 17, 2022 at 11:39 AM Matthew via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:

Stus-List Re: Chainplate Sealing - now sealants in general

[John Read via CnC-List]

Butyl

 

In my experience it is the only sealant that will stay adhered to stainless and 
still allow movement

 

John Read

Legacy III

1982 C 34

Noank, CT

 

From: dwight veinot via CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com] 
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2022 6:53 PM
To: Stus-List
Cc: dwight veinot
Subject: Stus-List Re: Chainplate Sealing - now sealants in general

 

Butyl tape

 

On Sun, Apr 17, 2022 at 11:39 AM Matthew via CnC-List  
wrote:

Stus-List Re: Chainplate Sealing - now sealants in general

[dwight veinot via CnC-List]

Butyl tape

On Sun, Apr 17, 2022 at 11:39 AM Matthew via CnC-List 
wrote:

> Listers:
>
>
>
> FYI, while trying to determine what caused water infiltration into the
> balsa core above the water line up forward (the last place that hasn’t been
> repaired), a few days ago we identified the fittings securing the forestay
> chainplate as the likely culprit.  Although I’m sure there are more
> accurate names, the two fittings work together to make a stemhead fitting.
> One fitting runs vertically on the uppermost portion of the bow, just below
> the deck, and has the forestay chainplate (looks like a large tang) welded
> on it.  The forestay chainplate/tang comes through a slot cut into the
> deck.  The second fitting is bolted onto the deck and has a slot for the
> chainplate/tang at the forward end and some hardware to connect jib tacks
> at the aft end.
>
>
>
> We believe there are two issues at work that caused water infiltration: 1)
> the lower set of bolts holding the chainplate/tang fitting were drilled
> through the uppermost area of balsa core, thereby providing a pathway to
> the core if not properly sealed (which they were not); and 2) the deck
> fitting that fits around the chainplate/tang was allowing water in
> (probably a lot over the years).  When we removed the deck fitting, we
> discovered that it was originally installed about ¾” aft of where it should
> have been.  This was immediately obvious because the originally drilled
> holes and the aft portion of the slot where the chainplate/tang comes
> through the deck had been re-glassed.  We then realized that the forward
> portion of this fitting had been modified to fit the more forward location
> (the forward rectangular corners had been cut off so the fitting/plate
> would fit).  We also noted that the slot for the chainplate/tang was not
> centered, with the tang pushing against the deck opening on the port side
> while leaving a 3/16” or so gap on the starboard side.  We widened the slot
> on the port side to accommodate sealant.
>
>
>
> We will be putting everything back together when it warms up a few
> degrees.  We are debating what sealant to use for the deck fitting,
> particularly in the slot around the chainplate/tang.  My expert is thinking
> Sikaflex 295.  What say you?
>
>
>
> Matt
>
> C 42 Custom
>
>
>
> *From:* Dennis C. via CnC-List 
> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 22, 2022 2:50 PM
> *To:* Stus-List 
> *Cc:* Dennis C. 
> *Subject:* Stus-List Re: Chainplate Sealing - now sealants in general
>
>
>
> Some thoughts on sealants.  Sealants are primarily silicone, polysulfide,
> polyurethane and blends of them.  Add to that butyl rubber.
>
>
>
> First, as a rule, I like butyl for any hardware that has the potential to
> flex or move.  Chainplates fit that criteria.
>
>
>
> My default sealant for most everything else except plastic is LifeSeal.
> For plastic I generally use silicone.
>
>
>
> Here's a reference for where to use sealants:
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/12WmFxRiqzUw2xiqLaEtfBpS1pYocZID-/view?usp=sharing
>
>
>
> Note that Life Calk is a polysulfide.  Do not use polysulfide for plastic.
>
> LifeSeal is a blend of silicone and polyurethane.
>
> 4200 is polyurethane.  I don't use 4200.  Got too many partially cured
> tubes.  Look at the expiration date before you buy.
>
>
>
> 5200 is NOT a sealant.  It's an adhesive.  From the 3M website:
>
>
>
> "3M™ Marine Adhesive Sealant 5200 is a one-component, high-strength,
> moisture-curing, gap-filling polyurethane for permanent bonding of wood,
> gelcoat and fiberglass."  Note the word "permanent"!
>
>
>
> A bit off the subject, but Flexpaste seems to fix gouges in rubber rub
> rails fairly well.  Who'd a thunk it?  An "as seen on TV product" that
> actually works on a boat!
>
> --
>
> Dennis C.
>
> Touche' 35-1 #83
>
> Mandeville, LA
>
-- 
Sent from Gmail Mobile

Stus-List Re: Chainplate Sealing - now sealants in general

[Matthew via CnC-List]

Listers:

 

FYI, while trying to determine what caused water infiltration into the balsa 
core above the water line up forward (the last place that hasn’t been 
repaired), a few days ago we identified the fittings securing the forestay 
chainplate as the likely culprit.  Although I’m sure there are more accurate 
names, the two fittings work together to make a stemhead fitting.  One fitting 
runs vertically on the uppermost portion of the bow, just below the deck, and 
has the forestay chainplate (looks like a large tang) welded on it.  The 
forestay chainplate/tang comes through a slot cut into the deck.  The second 
fitting is bolted onto the deck and has a slot for the chainplate/tang at the 
forward end and some hardware to connect jib tacks at the aft end.

 

We believe there are two issues at work that caused water infiltration: 1) the 
lower set of bolts holding the chainplate/tang fitting were drilled through the 
uppermost area of balsa core, thereby providing a pathway to the core if not 
properly sealed (which they were not); and 2) the deck fitting that fits around 
the chainplate/tang was allowing water in (probably a lot over the years).  
When we removed the deck fitting, we discovered that it was originally 
installed about ¾” aft of where it should have been.  This was immediately 
obvious because the originally drilled holes and the aft portion of the slot 
where the chainplate/tang comes through the deck had been re-glassed.  We then 
realized that the forward portion of this fitting had been modified to fit the 
more forward location (the forward rectangular corners had been cut off so the 
fitting/plate would fit).  We also noted that the slot for the chainplate/tang 
was not centered, with the tang pushing against the deck opening on the port 
side while leaving a 3/16” or so gap on the starboard side.  We widened the 
slot on the port side to accommodate sealant.

 

We will be putting everything back together when it warms up a few degrees.  We 
are debating what sealant to use for the deck fitting, particularly in the slot 
around the chainplate/tang.  My expert is thinking Sikaflex 295.  What say you?

 

Matt

C 42 Custom   

 

From: Dennis C. via CnC-List  
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2022 2:50 PM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Dennis C. 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Chainplate Sealing - now sealants in general

 

Some thoughts on sealants.  Sealants are primarily silicone, polysulfide, 
polyurethane and blends of them.  Add to that butyl rubber.

 

First, as a rule, I like butyl for any hardware that has the potential to flex 
or move.  Chainplates fit that criteria.  

 

My default sealant for most everything else except plastic is LifeSeal.  For 
plastic I generally use silicone.

 

Here's a reference for where to use sealants:  
https://drive.google.com/file/d/12WmFxRiqzUw2xiqLaEtfBpS1pYocZID-/view?usp=sharing

 

Note that Life Calk is a polysulfide.  Do not use polysulfide for plastic.

LifeSeal is a blend of silicone and polyurethane.

4200 is polyurethane.  I don't use 4200.  Got too many partially cured tubes.  
Look at the expiration date before you buy.

 

5200 is NOT a sealant.  It's an adhesive.  From the 3M website:

 

"3M™ Marine Adhesive Sealant 5200 is a one-component, high-strength, 
moisture-curing, gap-filling polyurethane for permanent bonding of wood, 
gelcoat and fiberglass."  Note the word "permanent"!

 

A bit off the subject, but Flexpaste seems to fix gouges in rubber rub rails 
fairly well.  Who'd a thunk it?  An "as seen on TV product" that actually works 
on a boat!

-- 

Dennis C.

Touche' 35-1 #83

Mandeville, LA  

Stus-List Re: Chainplate Sealing - now sealants in general

[Dennis C. via CnC-List]

Some thoughts on sealants.  Sealants are primarily silicone, polysulfide,
polyurethane and blends of them.  Add to that butyl rubber.

First, as a rule, I like butyl for any hardware that has the potential to
flex or move.  Chainplates fit that criteria.

My default sealant for most everything else except plastic is LifeSeal.
For plastic I generally use silicone.

Here's a reference for where to use sealants:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/12WmFxRiqzUw2xiqLaEtfBpS1pYocZID-/view?usp=sharing

Note that Life Calk is a polysulfide.  Do not use polysulfide for plastic.
LifeSeal is a blend of silicone and polyurethane.
4200 is polyurethane.  I don't use 4200.  Got too many partially cured
tubes.  Look at the expiration date before you buy.

5200 is NOT a sealant.  It's an adhesive.  From the 3M website:

"3M™ Marine Adhesive Sealant 5200 is a one-component, high-strength,
moisture-curing, gap-filling polyurethane for permanent bonding of wood,
gelcoat and fiberglass."  Note the word "permanent"!

A bit off the subject, but Flexpaste seems to fix gouges in rubber rub
rails fairly well.  Who'd a thunk it?  An "as seen on TV product" that
actually works on a boat!
-- 
Dennis C.
Touche' 35-1 #83
Mandeville, LA

Stus-List Re: Chainplate Sealing.

[Doug via CnC-List]

"I pulled both chainplate cover plates and noticed that I had a stainless rod 
on starboard that holds the two chainplates pieces together. One on port is 
missing." I had rods from from the chain plates down to frame work in the hull. 
This was on my LF38. The standing rigging went to u-bolts on the deck, these 
were secured to aluminium blocks which rods were attached. I never looked, or 
don't remember, at how the rods were attached to the hull. Doug Mountjoy sv 
Rebecca Leah C & C Landfall 39Port Orchard Yacht Club Port Orchard, WA
 Original message From: John Read via CnC-List 
 Date: 3/21/22  18:09  (GMT-06:00) To: Stus-List 
 Cc: John Read  Subject: 
Stus-List Re: Chainplate Sealing. Hi John  Had similar issues on my 34.  
Silicone, 4200 and similar all failed as did not adhere well to the stainless 
chain plates as they move a lot as rig tensions. Only thing that has worked is 
butyl.  Going on 10 years and no leaks. Not sure what benefits the stainless 
pin provides as is not well secured. Glad to chat anytime.  John Read On Mon, 
Mar 21, 2022, 4:27 PM John McCrea via CnC-List  
wrote:Hello. I have a leak on my port side chainplate that needs addressing. I 
pulled both chainplate cover plates and noticed that I had a stainless rod on 
starboard that holds the two chainplates pieces together. One on port is 
missing. Maybe that is causing excess movement and more adapt to leak? The 
covers are original and thin 1/16 aluminum. I am getting them beefed up to 1/8 
stainless.  Looks like the PO had only sealed them with clear silicone. So that 
will all be dug out. I am also inspecting the hull tabbing below with the 
chainplates etc to ensure that I do not have any issues there. What is the best 
sealant to use when installing the new cover plates? Thanks! Regards, John 
McCreaTalisman1979 36-1Mystic, CT

Stus-List Re: Chainplate Sealing.

[John Read via CnC-List]

Hi John  Had similar issues on my 34.  Silicone, 4200 and similar all
failed as did not adhere well to the stainless chain plates as they move a
lot as rig tensions. Only thing that has worked is butyl.  Going on 10
years and no leaks. Not sure what benefits the stainless pin provides as is
not well secured. Glad to chat anytime.  John Read

On Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 4:27 PM John McCrea via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Hello. I have a leak on my port side chainplate that needs addressing. I
> pulled both chainplate cover plates and noticed that I had a stainless rod
> on starboard that holds the two chainplates pieces together. One on port is
> missing. Maybe that is causing excess movement and more adapt to leak? The
> covers are original and thin 1/16 aluminum. I am getting them beefed up to
> 1/8 stainless.
>
>
>
> Looks like the PO had only sealed them with clear silicone. So that will
> all be dug out. I am also inspecting the hull tabbing below with the
> chainplates etc to ensure that I do not have any issues there. What is the
> best sealant to use when installing the new cover plates? Thanks!
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> John McCrea
>
> Talisman
>
> 1979 36-1
>
> Mystic, CT
>

Stus-List Re: Chainplate Sealing.

[Randy Stafford via CnC-List]

Hi Jeff,

Regarding epoxy, I can still get my chainplates out.  That’s why I put a 
releasing agent on them.  Once the epoxy hardened, I took them back out, and 
now the cutouts are a better fit around the chainplates.  But you have a point 
about movement.  Next time I get in there, I’ll have to inspect for effects of 
that.

Regarding knees, I remember a story on this list I think, within the last few 
years, about a Redwing that had to be totaled due to complete destruction of 
one of its knees.  When I did my resealing job and unbolted the chainplates 
from the knees, I’m pretty sure I concluded the knees on my boat are solid 
fiberglass.  I didn’t see any wood core in the bolt holes, and there’s pretty 
heavy matting/roving visible on the surface of the knees.  That would be in 
keeping with the rest of the hull construction on the early 30 MK I boats - 
solid glass hull, built like tanks.  I also inspected the metal chainplates as 
best I could with a strong magnifying glass, and didn’t see any signs of 
hairline cracking etc.

Cheers,
Randy

> On Mar 21, 2022, at 4:12 PM, Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> I second the sealing with butyl. Do NOT use silicone or 4200. The epoxy idea 
> may be ok, but messy and no going back. "Beefing up" the plates wont do any 
> harm but isn't necessary. These plates effectively protect the sealant. 
> That's it. Check the balsa core around the penetration. Depending on extent 
> of decay, determine how this will be remedied -- from digging out a small 
> amount balsa and fill with butyl to cutting out glass from above or below to 
> repair and anything in between. Overfill with butyl fron above and below, 
> then gradually tighten the cover plates to compress butyl and force it into 
> all voids. Carefully trim all excess butyl that oozes out from under the 
> plates and remove. Check frequently for leaks and gradual oozing of butyl.
> 
> The chain plates move in and out, perpendicular to the deck under load, 
> unload. The sealing material must be able to move also. Epoxy will not move. 
> Silicone will for a while, but it's difficult stuff to remove later if it 
> fails. Same with 4200 but even worse.  Butyl is the solution.
> 
> Also, I encourage you to carefully inspect the knee connection where chain 
> plate bolts to hull. Remove bolts and poke around with dental tools. Make 
> sure plywood is intact and not rotting. Inspect in the bottom of the space 
> below knee, poking and tapping everything, checking for hollow sounds and 
> decay. If there have been leaks at the deck, water runs down chain plate and 
> into all the plywood knee structure and can damage it. So, there is more to 
> preventing water at the deck core. Much more.
> 
> I am sure others on the list have stories to tell. A lister has an 81 C 
> that is in for a major major repair (thousands $$) of the knees due to a 
> leak. The rig nearly came down while racing. I was crew. Scary.  So I 
> immediately checked my C Leaking but very little decay. Dry as bone 
> after butyl and 4 months -- haven't been to boat since about November, but 
> under winter cover.
> 
> Jeff Laman
> 81 C
> Harmony
> Ludington Mich
> 
> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg>
> From: MICHAEL BRANNON via CnC-List 
> Sent: Monday, March 21, 2022 5:38:59 PM
> To: Stus-List 
> Cc: MICHAEL BRANNON 
> Subject: Stus-List Re: Chainplate Sealing.
>  
> John,  I’ve owned my 36-1 since 1997.   I’ve yet to make the chainplates quit 
> leaking but I’ve certainly reduced the amount.   First,  I doubt that the 
> balsa around your chainplates is sealed.  Mine wasn’t.  I had to replace core 
> material on the starboard side.   Second.  Those aluminum trim pieces are 
> flush to the deck.  I raised mine about 3?16” and that is what made the 
> difference.   Lastly,   Like everything else above the waterline I used butyl 
> as the sealant.   It remains flexible and easy to remove.   My advise is to 
> ask the butyl from both sides of the deck.  Install the trim plates and see 
> if it is sealed?   
> 
> Cheer, and best of luck.  
> 
> Mike
> 
> Mike Brannon
> Virginia Lee 93295
> 1978 C 36 CB
> Virginia Beach, VA
> 
> PS,  mine need to be done again this year.   
> 
> 
>> On Mar 21, 2022, at 5:28 PM, Marek Dziedzic via CnC-List 
>> mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> John,
>>  
>> Many would suggest 3M 4200, but silicone has issues. I swear by butyl tape 
>> (it never hardens out completely and it is very flexible). The best source 
>> is Maine Sail (Compass Marine https://marinehowto.com/ 
>> <https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmarinehowto.com%2F=04%7C01%7C%7Ccb4a36365894410f988c08da0b8354c1%7C84df

Stus-List Re: Chainplate Sealing.

[John McCrea via CnC-List]

Thanks. Will dissemble the bolts etc and check them out.

 

From: Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List  
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2022 6:12 PM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Jeffrey A. Laman 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Chainplate Sealing.

 

I second the sealing with butyl. Do NOT use silicone or 4200. The epoxy idea
may be ok, but messy and no going back. "Beefing up" the plates wont do any
harm but isn't necessary. These plates effectively protect the sealant.
That's it. Check the balsa core around the penetration. Depending on extent
of decay, determine how this will be remedied -- from digging out a small
amount balsa and fill with butyl to cutting out glass from above or below to
repair and anything in between. Overfill with butyl fron above and below,
then gradually tighten the cover plates to compress butyl and force it into
all voids. Carefully trim all excess butyl that oozes out from under the
plates and remove. Check frequently for leaks and gradual oozing of butyl.

 

The chain plates move in and out, perpendicular to the deck under load,
unload. The sealing material must be able to move also. Epoxy will not move.
Silicone will for a while, but it's difficult stuff to remove later if it
fails. Same with 4200 but even worse.  Butyl is the solution.

 

Also, I encourage you to carefully inspect the knee connection where chain
plate bolts to hull. Remove bolts and poke around with dental tools. Make
sure plywood is intact and not rotting. Inspect in the bottom of the space
below knee, poking and tapping everything, checking for hollow sounds and
decay. If there have been leaks at the deck, water runs down chain plate and
into all the plywood knee structure and can damage it. So, there is more to
preventing water at the deck core. Much more.

 

I am sure others on the list have stories to tell. A lister has an 81 C
that is in for a major major repair (thousands $$) of the knees due to a
leak. The rig nearly came down while racing. I was crew. Scary.  So I
immediately checked my C Leaking but very little decay. Dry as bone
after butyl and 4 months -- haven't been to boat since about November, but
under winter cover.

 

Jeff Laman

81 C

Harmony

Ludington Mich

 

Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg> 

  _  

From: MICHAEL BRANNON via CnC-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> >
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2022 5:38:59 PM
To: Stus-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> >
Cc: MICHAEL BRANNON mailto:ff1...@aol.com> >
Subject: Stus-List Re: Chainplate Sealing. 

 

John,  I've owned my 36-1 since 1997.   I've yet to make the chainplates
quit leaking but I've certainly reduced the amount.   First,  I doubt that
the balsa around your chainplates is sealed.  Mine wasn't.  I had to replace
core material on the starboard side.   Second.  Those aluminum trim pieces
are flush to the deck.  I raised mine about 3?16" and that is what made the
difference.   Lastly,   Like everything else above the waterline I used
butyl as the sealant.   It remains flexible and easy to remove.   My advise
is to ask the butyl from both sides of the deck.  Install the trim plates
and see if it is sealed?

 

Cheer, and best of luck.  

 

Mike

 

Mike Brannon

Virginia Lee 93295

1978 C 36 CB

Virginia Beach, VA

 

PS,  mine need to be done again this year.   

 

 

On Mar 21, 2022, at 5:28 PM, Marek Dziedzic via CnC-List
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > wrote:

 

John,

 

Many would suggest 3M 4200, but silicone has issues. I swear by butyl tape
(it never hardens out completely and it is very flexible). The best source
is Maine Sail (Compass Marine
<https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmarinehow
to.com%2F=04%7C01%7C%7Ccb4a36365894410f988c08da0b8354c1%7C84df9e7fe9f64
0afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637834955941777818%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJ
WIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000
=D%2FsSTOSoM9PpuLLRcc3qaZkNgrXXIzXYu0hYQVIVSvk%3D=0>
https://marinehowto.com/), though, I am not sure if he still sells this
stuff (he had a bad hard attack last year).

 

Marek

Ottawa, ON

 

From: John McCrea via CnC-List < <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2022 4:28 PM
To: 'Stus-List' < <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
Cc:  <mailto:johnmcc...@comcast.net> johnmcc...@comcast.net
Subject: Stus-List Chainplate Sealing.

 

Hello. I have a leak on my port side chainplate that needs addressing. I
pulled both chainplate cover plates and noticed that I had a stainless rod
on starboard that holds the two chainplates pieces together. One on port is
missing. Maybe that is causing excess movement and more adapt to leak? The
covers are original and thin 1/16 aluminum. I am getting them beefed up to
1/8 stainless.

 

Looks like the PO had only sealed them with clear silicone. So that will all
be dug out. I am also inspecting the hull tabbing below with th

Stus-List Re: Chainplate Sealing.

[John McCrea via CnC-List]

Thanks Mike!

 

From: MICHAEL BRANNON via CnC-List  
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2022 5:39 PM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: MICHAEL BRANNON 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Chainplate Sealing.

 

John,  I’ve owned my 36-1 since 1997.   I’ve yet to make the chainplates quit 
leaking but I’ve certainly reduced the amount.   First,  I doubt that the balsa 
around your chainplates is sealed.  Mine wasn’t.  I had to replace core 
material on the starboard side.   Second.  Those aluminum trim pieces are flush 
to the deck.  I raised mine about 3?16” and that is what made the difference.   
Lastly,   Like everything else above the waterline I used butyl as the sealant. 
  It remains flexible and easy to remove.   My advise is to ask the butyl from 
both sides of the deck.  Install the trim plates and see if it is sealed?   

 

Cheer, and best of luck.  

 

Mike

 

Mike Brannon

Virginia Lee 93295

1978 C 36 CB

Virginia Beach, VA

 

PS,  mine need to be done again this year.   

 

 

On Mar 21, 2022, at 5:28 PM, Marek Dziedzic via CnC-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > wrote:

 

John,

 

Many would suggest 3M 4200, but silicone has issues. I swear by butyl tape (it 
never hardens out completely and it is very flexible). The best source is Maine 
Sail (Compass Marine  <https://marinehowto.com/> https://marinehowto.com/), 
though, I am not sure if he still sells this stuff (he had a bad hard attack 
last year).

 

Marek

Ottawa, ON

 

From: John McCrea via CnC-List < <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2022 4:28 PM
To: 'Stus-List' < <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
Cc:  <mailto:johnmcc...@comcast.net> johnmcc...@comcast.net
Subject: Stus-List Chainplate Sealing.

 

Hello. I have a leak on my port side chainplate that needs addressing. I pulled 
both chainplate cover plates and noticed that I had a stainless rod on 
starboard that holds the two chainplates pieces together. One on port is 
missing. Maybe that is causing excess movement and more adapt to leak? The 
covers are original and thin 1/16 aluminum. I am getting them beefed up to 1/8 
stainless.

 

Looks like the PO had only sealed them with clear silicone. So that will all be 
dug out. I am also inspecting the hull tabbing below with the chainplates etc 
to ensure that I do not have any issues there. What is the best sealant to use 
when installing the new cover plates? Thanks!

 

Regards,

 

John McCrea

Talisman

1979 36-1

Mystic, CT

 

Stus-List Re: Chainplate Sealing.

[Mike Rose via CnC-List]

Well…

I’ll add my experience. First, I do use butyl as much as possible, but found 
chainplates a difficult application. The main problem we’re the cover plates 
are welded to the chainplate. This makes it difficult to get a significant 
amount of butyl in place still allowing the mounting bolts to pass through the 
bulkheads. I ended up using Sikaflex 291. Second, check your deck core. If 
you’ve had a drip, your core is wet. Replace and protect. Last, inspect the 
chainplate! I am not an expert, but would love to hear from one. I had one 
chainplate with substantial crevice corrosion. I understand it is related to 
moisture getting trapped without enough airflow to dry it out. If you’ve had a 
drip, I suspect the moisture has spent some time seeping through the failed 
sealant. I have not dye tested the old chainplate, but would like to. The 
exterior visual was enough for me to have a new one fabricated.

Just my experience…

Mike Rose
s/v Shannon Rose
C 39, hull #23

Sent from my iPhone

Stus-List Re: Chainplate Sealing.

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

I second the sealing with butyl. Do NOT use silicone or 4200. The epoxy idea 
may be ok, but messy and no going back. "Beefing up" the plates wont do any 
harm but isn't necessary. These plates effectively protect the sealant. That's 
it. Check the balsa core around the penetration. Depending on extent of decay, 
determine how this will be remedied -- from digging out a small amount balsa 
and fill with butyl to cutting out glass from above or below to repair and 
anything in between. Overfill with butyl fron above and below, then gradually 
tighten the cover plates to compress butyl and force it into all voids. 
Carefully trim all excess butyl that oozes out from under the plates and 
remove. Check frequently for leaks and gradual oozing of butyl.

The chain plates move in and out, perpendicular to the deck under load, unload. 
The sealing material must be able to move also. Epoxy will not move. Silicone 
will for a while, but it's difficult stuff to remove later if it fails. Same 
with 4200 but even worse.  Butyl is the solution.

Also, I encourage you to carefully inspect the knee connection where chain 
plate bolts to hull. Remove bolts and poke around with dental tools. Make sure 
plywood is intact and not rotting. Inspect in the bottom of the space below 
knee, poking and tapping everything, checking for hollow sounds and decay. If 
there have been leaks at the deck, water runs down chain plate and into all the 
plywood knee structure and can damage it. So, there is more to preventing water 
at the deck core. Much more.

I am sure others on the list have stories to tell. A lister has an 81 C 
that is in for a major major repair (thousands $$) of the knees due to a leak. 
The rig nearly came down while racing. I was crew. Scary.  So I immediately 
checked my C Leaking but very little decay. Dry as bone after butyl and 4 
months -- haven't been to boat since about November, but under winter cover.

Jeff Laman
81 C
Harmony
Ludington Mich

Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg>

From: MICHAEL BRANNON via CnC-List 
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2022 5:38:59 PM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: MICHAEL BRANNON 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Chainplate Sealing.

John,  I’ve owned my 36-1 since 1997.   I’ve yet to make the chainplates quit 
leaking but I’ve certainly reduced the amount.   First,  I doubt that the balsa 
around your chainplates is sealed.  Mine wasn’t.  I had to replace core 
material on the starboard side.   Second.  Those aluminum trim pieces are flush 
to the deck.  I raised mine about 3?16” and that is what made the difference.   
Lastly,   Like everything else above the waterline I used butyl as the sealant. 
  It remains flexible and easy to remove.   My advise is to ask the butyl from 
both sides of the deck.  Install the trim plates and see if it is sealed?

Cheer, and best of luck.

Mike

Mike Brannon
Virginia Lee 93295
1978 C 36 CB
Virginia Beach, VA

PS,  mine need to be done again this year.


On Mar 21, 2022, at 5:28 PM, Marek Dziedzic via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:

John,

Many would suggest 3M 4200, but silicone has issues. I swear by butyl tape (it 
never hardens out completely and it is very flexible). The best source is Maine 
Sail (Compass Marine 
https://marinehowto.com/<https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmarinehowto.com%2F=04%7C01%7C%7Ccb4a36365894410f988c08da0b8354c1%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637834955941777818%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000=D%2FsSTOSoM9PpuLLRcc3qaZkNgrXXIzXYu0hYQVIVSvk%3D=0>),
 though, I am not sure if he still sells this stuff (he had a bad hard attack 
last year).

Marek
Ottawa, ON

From: John McCrea via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2022 4:28 PM
To: 'Stus-List' mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Cc: johnmcc...@comcast.net<mailto:johnmcc...@comcast.net>
Subject: Stus-List Chainplate Sealing.

Hello. I have a leak on my port side chainplate that needs addressing. I pulled 
both chainplate cover plates and noticed that I had a stainless rod on 
starboard that holds the two chainplates pieces together. One on port is 
missing. Maybe that is causing excess movement and more adapt to leak? The 
covers are original and thin 1/16 aluminum. I am getting them beefed up to 1/8 
stainless.

Looks like the PO had only sealed them with clear silicone. So that will all be 
dug out. I am also inspecting the hull tabbing below with the chainplates etc 
to ensure that I do not have any issues there. What is the best sealant to use 
when installing the new cover plates? Thanks!

Regards,

John McCrea
Talisman
1979 36-1
Mystic, CT

Stus-List Re: Chainplate Sealing.

[Matthew via CnC-List]

Not so fast.  I'm a fan of 3M, and used to be a fan of 4200.  However, in
December 2021 Practical Sailor reported that after several years, firmed up
4200 reverted back to goop.  Practical Sailor asked 3M about this, but as of
the April 2022 "3M has offered no comment on the cause or global impact of
the product failure."  3M 4000 UV may have the same problem, although
Practical Sailor reported that 3M claims a reformulated product solved it
(at least for 4000 UV).  The recent update in the April 2022 issue is on p.
6 under "Gear Graveyard."

 

Matt Wolford

C 42 Custom 

 

From: Rod Stright via CnC-List  
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2022 4:40 PM
To: 'Stus-List' 
Cc: Rod Stright 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Chainplate Sealing.

 

3M 4200

 

From: John McCrea via CnC-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > 
Sent: March-21-22 5:28 PM
To: 'Stus-List' mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> >
Cc: johnmcc...@comcast.net <mailto:johnmcc...@comcast.net> 
Subject: Stus-List Chainplate Sealing.

 

Hello. I have a leak on my port side chainplate that needs addressing. I
pulled both chainplate cover plates and noticed that I had a stainless rod
on starboard that holds the two chainplates pieces together. One on port is
missing. Maybe that is causing excess movement and more adapt to leak? The
covers are original and thin 1/16 aluminum. I am getting them beefed up to
1/8 stainless. 

 

Looks like the PO had only sealed them with clear silicone. So that will all
be dug out. I am also inspecting the hull tabbing below with the chainplates
etc to ensure that I do not have any issues there. What is the best sealant
to use when installing the new cover plates? Thanks!

 

Regards,

 

John McCrea

Talisman

1979 36-1

Mystic, CT

Stus-List Re: Chainplate Sealing.

[MICHAEL BRANNON via CnC-List]

John,  I’ve owned my 36-1 since 1997.   I’ve yet to make the chainplates quit 
leaking but I’ve certainly reduced the amount.   First,  I doubt that the balsa 
around your chainplates is sealed.  Mine wasn’t.  I had to replace core 
material on the starboard side.   Second.  Those aluminum trim pieces are flush 
to the deck.  I raised mine about 3?16” and that is what made the difference.   
Lastly,   Like everything else above the waterline I used butyl as the sealant. 
  It remains flexible and easy to remove.   My advise is to ask the butyl from 
both sides of the deck.  Install the trim plates and see if it is sealed?   

Cheer, and best of luck.  

Mike

Mike Brannon
Virginia Lee 93295
1978 C 36 CB
Virginia Beach, VA

PS,  mine need to be done again this year.   


> On Mar 21, 2022, at 5:28 PM, Marek Dziedzic via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> John,
>  
> Many would suggest 3M 4200, but silicone has issues. I swear by butyl tape 
> (it never hardens out completely and it is very flexible). The best source is 
> Maine Sail (Compass Marine https://marinehowto.com/ 
> ), though, I am not sure if he still sells this 
> stuff (he had a bad hard attack last year).
>  
> Marek
> Ottawa, ON
>  
> From: John McCrea via CnC-List  > 
> Sent: Monday, March 21, 2022 4:28 PM
> To: 'Stus-List' mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
> Cc: johnmcc...@comcast.net 
> Subject: Stus-List Chainplate Sealing.
>  
> Hello. I have a leak on my port side chainplate that needs addressing. I 
> pulled both chainplate cover plates and noticed that I had a stainless rod on 
> starboard that holds the two chainplates pieces together. One on port is 
> missing. Maybe that is causing excess movement and more adapt to leak? The 
> covers are original and thin 1/16 aluminum. I am getting them beefed up to 
> 1/8 stainless.
>  
> Looks like the PO had only sealed them with clear silicone. So that will all 
> be dug out. I am also inspecting the hull tabbing below with the chainplates 
> etc to ensure that I do not have any issues there. What is the best sealant 
> to use when installing the new cover plates? Thanks!
>  
> Regards,
>  
> John McCrea
> Talisman
> 1979 36-1
> Mystic, CT

Stus-List Re: Chainplate Sealing.

[Randy Stafford via CnC-List]

Hi John,

I resealed the chainplates on my 30 MK I about five years ago with advice from 
Dennis Cheuvront here on the list.  I removed the chainplates (there’s only one 
per side on a 30 MK I) and dug out maybe a half-inch of wet / rotted balsa core 
around the cutouts between the fiberglass layers.  Then I put the plates back 
in with a releasing agent on them (Carmex, it turned out), and filled all gaps 
with thickened epoxy, injecting it through the cover screw holes etc.  First 
I'd packed Play-Doh between the inner fiberglass layer and cabin ceiling liner 
to prevent epoxy from dripping and oozing.  Finally I put the covers back on 
sealed with LifeSeal.  Some pictures of the project at 
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B-NqAxQ6JxFTcTV6UlEwMmlqZkk?resourcekey=0-17H-NdO9zgBNAfBVLXuK2A=sharing
 
.
  Overall I think it was an improvement, a necessary catch-up on some deferred 
maintenance, but unfortunately I think I still get a bit of leakage down the 
chainplates.  At least now I hope it’s not wetting the balsa core. 

Cheers,
Randy Stafford
S/V Grenadine
C 30 MK I #79
Ken Caryl, CO

> On Mar 21, 2022, at 2:40 PM, Rod Stright via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> 3M 4200
>  
> From: John McCrea via CnC-List  
> Sent: March-21-22 5:28 PM
> To: 'Stus-List' 
> Cc: johnmcc...@comcast.net
> Subject: Stus-List Chainplate Sealing.
>  
> Hello. I have a leak on my port side chainplate that needs addressing. I 
> pulled both chainplate cover plates and noticed that I had a stainless rod on 
> starboard that holds the two chainplates pieces together. One on port is 
> missing. Maybe that is causing excess movement and more adapt to leak? The 
> covers are original and thin 1/16 aluminum. I am getting them beefed up to 
> 1/8 stainless.
>  
> Looks like the PO had only sealed them with clear silicone. So that will all 
> be dug out. I am also inspecting the hull tabbing below with the chainplates 
> etc to ensure that I do not have any issues there. What is the best sealant 
> to use when installing the new cover plates? Thanks!
>  
> Regards,
>  
> John McCrea
> Talisman
> 1979 36-1
> Mystic, CT

Stus-List Re: Chainplate Sealing.

[Marek Dziedzic via CnC-List]

John,

Many would suggest 3M 4200, but silicone has issues. I swear by butyl tape (it 
never hardens out completely and it is very flexible). The best source is Maine 
Sail (Compass Marine https://marinehowto.com/), though, I am not sure if he 
still sells this stuff (he had a bad hard attack last year).

Marek
Ottawa, ON

From: John McCrea via CnC-List 
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2022 4:28 PM
To: 'Stus-List' 
Cc: johnmcc...@comcast.net
Subject: Stus-List Chainplate Sealing.

Hello. I have a leak on my port side chainplate that needs addressing. I pulled 
both chainplate cover plates and noticed that I had a stainless rod on 
starboard that holds the two chainplates pieces together. One on port is 
missing. Maybe that is causing excess movement and more adapt to leak? The 
covers are original and thin 1/16 aluminum. I am getting them beefed up to 1/8 
stainless.

Looks like the PO had only sealed them with clear silicone. So that will all be 
dug out. I am also inspecting the hull tabbing below with the chainplates etc 
to ensure that I do not have any issues there. What is the best sealant to use 
when installing the new cover plates? Thanks!

Regards,

John McCrea
Talisman
1979 36-1
Mystic, CT

Stus-List Re: Chainplate Sealing.

[Rod Stright via CnC-List]

3M 4200

 

From: John McCrea via CnC-List  
Sent: March-21-22 5:28 PM
To: 'Stus-List' 
Cc: johnmcc...@comcast.net
Subject: Stus-List Chainplate Sealing.

 

Hello. I have a leak on my port side chainplate that needs addressing. I
pulled both chainplate cover plates and noticed that I had a stainless rod
on starboard that holds the two chainplates pieces together. One on port is
missing. Maybe that is causing excess movement and more adapt to leak? The
covers are original and thin 1/16 aluminum. I am getting them beefed up to
1/8 stainless. 

 

Looks like the PO had only sealed them with clear silicone. So that will all
be dug out. I am also inspecting the hull tabbing below with the chainplates
etc to ensure that I do not have any issues there. What is the best sealant
to use when installing the new cover plates? Thanks!

 

Regards,

 

John McCrea

Talisman

1979 36-1

Mystic, CT