Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

[cenelson via CnC-List]

Not surprisingly, I got lost in the forest and forgot about the tree!
I went with 155% based on what others use in the Southport, NC area but 
slightly heavier weight to survive the average higher breeze there vs. the 
upper Neuse river.
Charlie


Sent from the all new Aol app for iOS


On Saturday, February 27, 2021, 6:16 AM, Bill Coleman via CnC-List 
 wrote:

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You did not tell us what size headsail you went with, that wasthe most 
discussed aspect of the whole diatribe!
 
( I think you mean Nordac?) those are usually pretty robustsails.
 
  
 
Bill Coleman
 
Entrada, Erie, PA
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
From: Charlie Nelson viaCnC-List [mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com] 
Sent: Friday, February 26, 2021 3:46 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: cenel...@aol.com
Subject: Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind
 
  
 
Just a short note to thanks all who chimed in on my head sailquestion. 
 
  
 
The short story is that I decided to go with a 3Di Nordiccomposite sail 
(so-called light/medium) that has a maximum AWS wind of ~ 16knots. The light 
wind equivalent has a maximum AWS wind of ~ 12 knots and Ialready have a 
lightly used light air (maximum AWS of ~ 8 knots) so I opted forthe lt./med 
since the light air was covered and the expected coastal winds areabout 2 knots 
higher (7 vs. 5.5 knots) than those in the upper Neuse riverwhere I have done 
most of my racing to date. I also have an almost new 140%(Hood Vectran) and a 
bullet proof 90% from North. Thus I have a reasonable(IMHO) set of upwind sails 
for my racer/cruiser for local club racing. I alsohave both a 3/4 oz. masthead 
symmetrical kite and a smaller, stronger reachingkite. 
 
  
 
I appreciate the comments on changing head sails to meet theconditions, 
etc.,--in an ideal world this is the solution. OTOH, in my world,finding enough 
KNOWLEDGEABLE crew (6+ depending on wind) to race is almostimpossible for local 
regattas and not that easy even for something likeCRW. 
 
  
 
So here is how I compromise, to wit:
 
  
 
1). All my head sails are used on a furler. Thus headsail changeson the fly are 
not possible even on the rare days that my crew is both numerousand 
knowledgeable. All buoy races are done with the headsail that crosses 
thestarting line--although it may get changed between races. 
 
  
 
2). Most of my racing is now in non-spin. SAFELY handling a masthead kite in 
winds > 12 knots with limited crew (number and knowledge) isnot easy and when 
the inevitable goes 'awry', people can and do get hurt--oneof my most 
experienced crew was slammed to the foredeck by an errant kite guy afew years 
ago and was evaluated for a concussion at a local hospital as soon aswe got off 
the water. Fortunately he was OK but this is not something I want torepeat. 
Note he was my most experienced crew!
 
  
 
3). Since I cannot change head sails on the fly (see 1), I preferto use the 
largest headsail I can since I need it for downwind sail area. Ifind it easier 
and quicker to reef the main and rarely furl the headsail toreduce sail area 
upwind. 
 
  
 
4). The bottom is painted yearly and scrubbed/wiped down beforeeach race by a 
diver. Currently I use Petit Vivid, a hard ablative and plan totry Odyssey this 
year.
 
  
 
5). I usually have 5-6 regular crew, most of whom have been racingwith me for 
5-10 years. The only ones that I have lost left for medicalreasons, moved out 
of the area or went cruising. Believe me, I know theimportance of good crew as 
well as how to keep them on board. Note that this is1-2 shy of the 8 
knowledgeable crew I believe are required to race my boat toher potential, 
especially in a breeze.
 
  
 
I am sure there are more compromises in my racing efforts but evenwith these 
above, I find after ~ 25 years of club racing that I still enjoy thethrill of 
the competition, the joy of occasionally passing or even beating acompetitor 
and, of course, the agony of analyzing WTF we messed up as we hadback to the 
dock for sandwiches and adult beverages!! Even in the latter case,I am 
confident that there will always be another race where there is thepotential to 
do better! Like a golfer, all it takes is one good shot on thecourse to make 
him/her return. For a club racer, all it takes is a well sailed,competitive 
race for me to return.
 
  
 

Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

[Bill Coleman via CnC-List]

You did not tell us what size headsail you went with, that was the most 
discussed aspect of the whole diatribe!

( I think you mean Nordac?) those are usually pretty robust sails.

 

Bill Coleman

Entrada, Erie, PA

 

 

 

From: Charlie Nelson via CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com] 
Sent: Friday, February 26, 2021 3:46 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: cenel...@aol.com
Subject: Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

 

Just a short note to thanks all who chimed in on my head sail question. 

 

The short story is that I decided to go with a 3Di Nordic composite sail 
(so-called light/medium) that has a maximum AWS wind of ~ 16 knots. The light 
wind equivalent has a maximum AWS wind of ~ 12 knots and I already have a 
lightly used light air (maximum AWS of ~ 8 knots) so I opted for the lt./med 
since the light air was covered and the expected coastal winds are about 2 
knots higher (7 vs. 5.5 knots) than those in the upper Neuse river where I have 
done most of my racing to date. I also have an almost new 140% (Hood Vectran) 
and a bullet proof 90% from North. Thus I have a reasonable (IMHO) set of 
upwind sails for my racer/cruiser for local club racing. I also have both a 3/4 
oz. masthead symmetrical kite and a smaller, stronger reaching kite. 

 

I appreciate the comments on changing head sails to meet the conditions, 
etc.,--in an ideal world this is the solution. OTOH, in my world, finding 
enough KNOWLEDGEABLE crew (6+ depending on wind) to race is almost impossible 
for local regattas and not that easy even for something like CRW. 

 

So here is how I compromise, to wit:

 

1). All my head sails are used on a furler. Thus headsail changes on the fly 
are not possible even on the rare days that my crew is both numerous and 
knowledgeable. All buoy races are done with the headsail that crosses the 
starting line--although it may get changed between races. 

 

2). Most of my racing is now in non-spin. SAFELY handling a mast head kite in 
winds > 12 knots with limited crew (number and knowledge) is not easy and when 
the inevitable goes 'awry', people can and do get hurt--one of my most 
experienced crew was slammed to the foredeck by an errant kite guy a few years 
ago and was evaluated for a concussion at a local hospital as soon as we got 
off the water. Fortunately he was OK but this is not something I want to 
repeat. Note he was my most experienced crew!

 

3). Since I cannot change head sails on the fly (see 1), I prefer to use the 
largest headsail I can since I need it for downwind sail area. I find it easier 
and quicker to reef the main and rarely furl the headsail to reduce sail area 
upwind. 

 

4). The bottom is painted yearly and scrubbed/wiped down before each race by a 
diver. Currently I use Petit Vivid, a hard ablative and plan to try Odyssey 
this year.

 

5). I usually have 5-6 regular crew, most of whom have been racing with me for 
5-10 years. The only ones that I have lost left for medical reasons, moved out 
of the area or went cruising. Believe me, I know the importance of good crew as 
well as how to keep them on board. Note that this is 1-2 shy of the 8 
knowledgeable crew I believe are required to race my boat to her potential, 
especially in a breeze.

 

I am sure there are more compromises in my racing efforts but even with these 
above, I find after ~ 25 years of club racing that I still enjoy the thrill of 
the competition, the joy of occasionally passing or even beating a competitor 
and, of course, the agony of analyzing WTF we messed up as we had back to the 
dock for sandwiches and adult beverages!! Even in the latter case, I am 
confident that there will always be another race where there is the potential 
to do better! Like a golfer, all it takes is one good shot on the course to 
make him/her return. For a club racer, all it takes is a well sailed, 
competitive race for me to return.

 

So that's my current racing story and the background of my choice for the head 
sail.

 

 

Charlie Nelson

Water Phantom

1995 C 36 XL/kcb

 

 

 

 

 





 

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

[Charlie Nelson via CnC-List]

Just a short note to thanks all who chimed in on my head sail question. 
The short story is that I decided to go with a 3Di Nordic composite sail 
(so-called light/medium) that has a maximum AWS wind of ~ 16 knots. The light 
wind equivalent has a maximum AWS wind of ~ 12 knots and I already have a 
lightly used light air (maximum AWS of ~ 8 knots) so I opted for the lt./med 
since the light air was covered and the expected coastal winds are about 2 
knots higher (7 vs. 5.5 knots) than those in the upper Neuse river where I have 
done most of my racing to date. I also have an almost new 140% (Hood Vectran) 
and a bullet proof 90% from North. Thus I have a reasonable (IMHO) set of 
upwind sails for my racer/cruiser for local club racing. I also have both a 3/4 
oz. masthead symmetrical kite and a smaller, stronger reaching kite. 
I appreciate the comments on changing head sails to meet the conditions, 
etc.,--in an ideal world this is the solution. OTOH, in my world, finding 
enough KNOWLEDGEABLE crew (6+ depending on wind) to race is almost impossible 
for local regattas and not that easy even for something like CRW. 
So here is how I compromise, to wit:
1). All my head sails are used on a furler. Thus headsail changes on the fly 
are not possible even on the rare days that my crew is both numerous and 
knowledgeable. All buoy races are done with the headsail that crosses the 
starting line--although it may get changed between races. 
2). Most of my racing is now in non-spin. SAFELY handling a mast head kite in 
winds > 12 knots with limited crew (number and knowledge) is not easy and when 
the inevitable goes 'awry', people can and do get hurt--one of my most 
experienced crew was slammed to the foredeck by an errant kite guy a few years 
ago and was evaluated for a concussion at a local hospital as soon as we got 
off the water. Fortunately he was OK but this is not something I want to 
repeat. Note he was my most experienced crew!
3). Since I cannot change head sails on the fly (see 1), I prefer to use the 
largest headsail I can since I need it for downwind sail area. I find it easier 
and quicker to reef the main and rarely furl the headsail to reduce sail area 
upwind. 
4). The bottom is painted yearly and scrubbed/wiped down before each race by a 
diver. Currently I use Petit Vivid, a hard ablative and plan to try Odyssey 
this year.
5). I usually have 5-6 regular crew, most of whom have been racing with me for 
5-10 years. The only ones that I have lost left for medical reasons, moved out 
of the area or went cruising. Believe me, I know the importance of good crew as 
well as how to keep them on board. Note that this is 1-2 shy of the 8 
knowledgeable crew I believe are required to race my boat to her potential, 
especially in a breeze.
I am sure there are more compromises in my racing efforts but even with these 
above, I find after ~ 25 years of club racing that I still enjoy the thrill of 
the competition, the joy of occasionally passing or even beating a competitor 
and, of course, the agony of analyzing WTF we messed up as we had back to the 
dock for sandwiches and adult beverages!! Even in the latter case, I am 
confident that there will always be another race where there is the potential 
to do better! Like a golfer, all it takes is one good shot on the course to 
make him/her return. For a club racer, all it takes is a well sailed, 
competitive race for me to return.
So that's my current racing story and the background of my choice for the head 
sail.

Charlie NelsonWater Phantom1995 C 36 XL/kcb








Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

[John Conklin via CnC-List]

Same here John ! 
Race My Etchells and Cruise the 37 :) no no PHRF stuff or agreements we only 
have 4 in the fleet but  first over the line wins - period!  super fun !   The 
whole Etchells package boat trailer and sails in excellent shape I stole for 
$3500! We Painted last year and Maybe $500 in bits and misc. parts! came with a 
brand new set of sails Including spin ! which I have not even broken out any of 
them yet !  

John C

> On Feb 9, 2021, at 6:04 PM, John McCrea via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> This discussion reinforces my racing program, a J-24 to race and my C 36
> to cruise. Sails on the 24 are so much cheaper, and the used market from the
> top racers supports the rest of us. I bought a set of North Racing sails
> used two days at the 2019 nationals last summer. Purchase price 3k for a
> spin, main and black Twaron/Technora class 150.. 
> 
> I race with four people tops, two that I bred and are still on the college
> payroll and one friend. Less people=less beer and food to buy! We have just
> as much fun and have the biggest class of 8-10 boats out of 50 or so on Wed
> nights. We used to have a 1989 C 37XL and raced that with 8 to ten, very
> expensive. All this being said the 36 has two Doyle jibs, a 150 and a 135. I
> love the 135! 
> 
> John McCrea
> 
> Cluster Duck, J 24
> Talisman, 36-1
> 
> Mystic, CT
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: David Risch via CnC-List  
> Sent: Tuesday, February 9, 2021 5:51 PM
> To: Stus-List 
> Cc: David Risch 
> Subject: Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind
> 
> Bottom line with sails these days is crew.  How many and how often. Getting
> harder and harder (So I hear) to find consistent good crew.   When I raced
> with 4 headsails, 3 spinnakers etc. I had 8 on board my 40-2.   Son moved on
> in life and the adult day camp program ceased.   When I do race now its
> short-handed or solo.   Even a tacking a 135% roller is "fun" in our
> Buzzards Bay smokin' SWers when alone or with one.  Now that we can get a
> rating bump for a 125% will reduce the headsail to the 125%. And I muuch
> prefer the minimal logistics and the solitude/focused conversation with the
> less is more crew configuration.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Robert Abbott via CnC-List  
> Sent: Tuesday, February 9, 2021 4:42 PM
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Cc: Robert Abbott 
> Subject: Stus-List New sails, new wind
> 
> Interesting discussion on sail selection.  And that is a broad subject. What
> kind of racing?
> 
> While I have retired from racing, I clearly remember racing with a sail
> inventory4 head sails (150% light and heavy air...#1, 135%...#2, and a
> 100%..#3), 2 spinnakers (systematical 3/4 oz. and a 1/2 oz.).   Many races
> we (I as the foredeck person) was changing head sails to suit changes
> conditions.  We sometimes did a spinnaker peel (something we practiced). 
> The main stayed full until we had to go down to the #3. Much of this racing
> was on a C 33 MKII and a C 34R.
> 
> Where I sail here in Halifax Harbour, Nova Scotia, Canada, there is no one
> sail that works best for any given race day.  I am now a reacher, not a
> racer, but I still know the difference in sail selection for the conditions.
> I now sail much of the season with a furled 135%...it is my go to
> sail...many days my 100% blade is the sail to have...one day last year, a
> fellow lister here that we raced a lot together, was coming with me for an
> afternoon sail and he said "it is going to be a light air day, bring your
> 155% light air Kevlar today I did we dropped the 135% and hoisted the
> 155% and it was the right sail for the day.  The next day, no way could I
> hoist the 155%.
> 
> One head sail for racing is something I have no knowledge and/or experience
> in and therefore have no relevant or helpful advice.
> 
> If you wish to race with only one head sail, and your prevailing wind is
> around 10 knots true, my best guess would be a 135%.
> 
> Robert Abbott
> AZURA
> C 32 - #277
> Halifax, N.S.
> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with
> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use
> PayPal to send contribution --
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.paypal.
> me%2Fstumurraydata=04%7C01%7C%7Cadc793e63f114b78569608d8cd438339%7C84df
> 9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637485037132009482%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbG
> Zsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1
> 000sdata=rxnSNsd1bq23mCioj%2BXYMJcUKRG2qDTHl4t%2FxffYhAQ%3Dreserve
> d=0  Thanks - Stu
> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with
> the costs involved.  If you want to sho

Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

[David Knecht via CnC-List]

Unfortunately, there is only one “short-handed” race all season in my area and 
that is a double-handed one day event.  There are no single/double entry 
categories in any ECSA events.  I have brought up the issue with the ECSA a 
number of times but got no traction.  It will likely be the top of my priority 
list when I retire and have more time.  I am in charge of racing for our club 
this year, so may try it for some events and see what response I get.  Dave

S/V Aries
1990 C 34+
New London, CT



> On Feb 10, 2021, at 9:24 AM, dwight veinot via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> Does the PHRF in your area adjust for deficiencies in crew and crew work. In 
> some clubs that may happen based on results from one series to the next but 
> even that assumes your crew is constant and any improvement in results will 
> relate to the crew getting better. Still it’s a rather arbitrary adjustment. 
> If you fleet race solo or double handed you may deserve more favourable 
> adjustment for crew deficiencies than you get for sail inventory.  
> 
> On Wed, Feb 10, 2021 at 9:36 AM David Knecht via CnC-List 
> mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
> Interesting discussion.  When I got new string sails a few years ago, I opted 
> for a 145 and a 110 genoa.  I raced for several years with small crew (3-4) 
> with the 145 and only put on the 110 in the Fall when it was predicted to 
> blow hard all day.  Last year, I raced solo all season due to Covid and so 
> got re-rated for the 110 (PHRF 121 went to 133).  I was definitely not as 
> fast, but it was so much easier to handle the boat and so much more fun.  
> I have raced solo with the 145 and it was a killer.   I remember once on a 
> 10-15 day just not being able to get the genoa winched in the whole way by 
> the last beat (I was ready to add electric winches!).  With the 110, I did 
> some long all day races solo with 25 knot winds and had a blast.  On light 
> days, it took even more concentration than normal to keep the boat going with 
> the 110, but I did not feel slow, given the rating boost.  IMHO, light air is 
> about technique more than sail area.  I thought I would get hurt more 
> downwind than upwind by the small genoa (non-spinnaker racing) but that did 
> not seem to be the case.  I did not finish as well overall as previous years, 
> but I think that was as much due to being solo as it was to the smaller sail. 
>  In heavier air, unless you have 6 bodies on the rail (which I never have), I 
> don’t think the larger sail really has benefits.  You are just overpowered 
> all the time.  So presuming you get the PHRF benefit of a smaller sail, I 
> would not hesitate to err on the smaller side.  Isn’t that what PHRF is 
> supposed to do- equalize your competitiveness given your setup?  Dave
>   
> S/V Aries
> 1990 C 34+
> New London, CT
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with 
> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use 
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray 
>   Thanks - Stu
> -- 
> Sent from Gmail Mobile
> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with 
> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use 
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

[dwight veinot via CnC-List]

Does the PHRF in your area adjust for deficiencies in crew and crew work.
In some clubs that may happen based on results from one series to the next
but even that assumes your crew is constant and any improvement in results
will relate to the crew getting better. Still it’s a rather arbitrary
adjustment. If you fleet race solo or double handed you may deserve more
favourable adjustment for crew deficiencies than you get for sail
inventory.

On Wed, Feb 10, 2021 at 9:36 AM David Knecht via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Interesting discussion.  When I got new string sails a few years ago, I
> opted for a 145 and a 110 genoa.  I raced for several years with small crew
> (3-4) with the 145 and only put on the 110 in the Fall when it was
> predicted to blow hard all day.  Last year, I raced solo all season due to
> Covid and so got re-rated for the 110 (PHRF 121 went to 133).  I was
> definitely not as fast, but it was so much easier to handle the boat
> and so much more fun.  I have raced solo with the 145 and it was a killer.
>   I remember once on a 10-15 day just not being able to get the genoa
> winched in the whole way by the last beat (I was ready to add electric
> winches!).  With the 110, I did some long all day races solo with 25 knot
> winds and had a blast.  On light days, it took even more concentration than
> normal to keep the boat going with the 110, but I did not feel slow, given
> the rating boost.  IMHO, light air is about technique more than sail area.
> I thought I would get hurt more downwind than upwind by the small genoa
> (non-spinnaker racing) but that did not seem to be the case.  I did not
> finish as well overall as previous years, but I think that was as much due
> to being solo as it was to the smaller sail.  In heavier air, unless you
> have 6 bodies on the rail (which I never have), I don’t think the larger
> sail really has benefits.  You are just overpowered all the time.  So
> presuming you get the PHRF benefit of a smaller sail, I would not hesitate
> to err on the smaller side.  Isn’t that what PHRF is supposed to do-
> equalize your competitiveness given your setup?  Dave
>
> S/V Aries
> 1990 C 34+
> New London, CT
>
>
> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with
> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks
> - Stu

-- 
Sent from Gmail Mobile
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

[David Knecht via CnC-List]

Interesting discussion.  When I got new string sails a few years ago, I opted 
for a 145 and a 110 genoa.  I raced for several years with small crew (3-4) 
with the 145 and only put on the 110 in the Fall when it was predicted to blow 
hard all day.  Last year, I raced solo all season due to Covid and so got 
re-rated for the 110 (PHRF 121 went to 133).  I was definitely not as fast, but 
it was so much easier to handle the boat and so much more fun.  I have 
raced solo with the 145 and it was a killer.   I remember once on a 10-15 day 
just not being able to get the genoa winched in the whole way by the last beat 
(I was ready to add electric winches!).  With the 110, I did some long all day 
races solo with 25 knot winds and had a blast.  On light days, it took even 
more concentration than normal to keep the boat going with the 110, but I did 
not feel slow, given the rating boost.  IMHO, light air is about technique more 
than sail area.  I thought I would get hurt more downwind than upwind by the 
small genoa (non-spinnaker racing) but that did not seem to be the case.  I did 
not finish as well overall as previous years, but I think that was as much due 
to being solo as it was to the smaller sail.  In heavier air, unless you have 6 
bodies on the rail (which I never have), I don’t think the larger sail really 
has benefits.  You are just overpowered all the time.  So presuming you get the 
PHRF benefit of a smaller sail, I would not hesitate to err on the smaller 
side.  Isn’t that what PHRF is supposed to do- equalize your competitiveness 
given your setup?  Dave
  
S/V Aries
1990 C 34+
New London, CT



Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

[dwight veinot via CnC-List]

If Charlie is interested in spending serious money for one headsail in
order to get better racing results then I think he would be well advised to
get really serious about racing and be prepared to part with more serious
money for a headsail inventory. My c 35 loses a lot if i neglect a needed
headsail change when conditions dictate. So you are correct in your reply.
Our boats need the proper headsail to do their best in all conditions and
aside from having the inventory you crew needs to be able to make efficient
headsail changes on the fly. Rather than be frustrated because you don’t
have the best sail for the conditions maybe just race when the conditions
are appropriate for the one good sail you have.  Furling headsails are very
nice but on our boats not the best for racing and relying on handicap
adjustments is not that good either. My 35 probably requires at minimum 6
good sailors to race at it best and maybe more at high windspeed to put
weight on the windward rail to keep heel angle below 20 degrees

On Tue, Feb 9, 2021 at 5:41 PM Robert Abbott via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Interesting discussion on sail selection.  And that is a broad subject.
> What kind of racing?
>
> While I have retired from racing, I clearly remember racing with a sail
> inventory4 head sails (150% light and heavy air...#1, 135%...#2, and
> a 100%..#3), 2 spinnakers (systematical 3/4 oz. and a 1/2 oz.).   Many
> races we (I as the foredeck person) was changing head sails to suit
> changes conditions.  We sometimes did a spinnaker peel (something we
> practiced).  The main stayed full until we had to go down to the #3.
> Much of this racing was on a C 33 MKII and a C 34R.
>
> Where I sail here in Halifax Harbour, Nova Scotia, Canada, there is no
> one sail that works best for any given race day.  I am now a reacher,
> not a racer, but I still know the difference in sail selection for the
> conditions. I now sail much of the season with a furled 135%...it is my
> go to sail...many days my 100% blade is the sail to have...one day last
> year, a fellow lister here that we raced a lot together, was coming with
> me for an afternoon sail and he said "it is going to be a light air day,
> bring your 155% light air Kevlar today I did we dropped the 135% and
> hoisted the 155% and it was the right sail for the day.  The next day,
> no way could I hoist the 155%.
>
> One head sail for racing is something I have no knowledge and/or
> experience in and therefore have no relevant or helpful advice.
>
> If you wish to race with only one head sail, and your prevailing wind is
> around 10 knots true, my best guess would be a 135%.
>
> Robert Abbott
> AZURA
> C 32 - #277
> Halifax, N.S.
> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with
> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks
> - Stu

-- 
Sent from Gmail Mobile
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

[Joel Delamirande via CnC-List]

Hey Debbie
Do u need crew members
I need experience and only have asa 101 for now

On Tue, Feb 9, 2021 at 10:48 AM Debbie Jeffcoatt via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> We race a 80's C 37 on Lake Ontario, club races with crew plus a double
> handed seriers and switched to a #2 (135%) several years ago, that was
> built to roll down to # 3 if needed.  Our PHRF was adjusted for the smaller
> head sail.  We still have the large # 1, but haven't used it since.
> Tacking time is a lot quicker and much easier when double handed.  Glayva
> won Boat of the Year in 2019 with our great crew and this sail.  Our
> motivation to purchase the # 2, came from a C 35 racer in Kingston area.
>
> Debbie
> Glayva II
> C 37
>
> On Tue, Feb 9, 2021 at 5:49 AM Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
>> Or keep your old patched 155 and use the 140 for the slightly breezier
>> days and forego the reef
>> --
>> *From:* Rod Stright via CnC-List 
>> *Sent:* February 9, 2021 5:30:15 AM
>> *To:* 'Stus-List'
>> *Cc:* Rod Stright
>> *Subject:* Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind
>>
>>
>> Would you get a PHRF adjustment credit by moving to a 135% Roller Furling
>> headsail?
>>
>>
>>
>> Rod Stright
>>
>> Halifax
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Charlie Nelson via CnC-List 
>> *Sent:* February-09-21 12:23 AM
>> *To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com
>> *Cc:* cenel...@aol.com
>> *Subject:* Stus-List New sails, new wind
>>
>>
>>
>> Hello all listers.
>>
>>
>>
>> I have a hypothetical for the racers among you.
>>
>>
>>
>> I need to replace my 3DL headsail--its mostly patches after ~ 5 years of
>> club racing locally. This is about my 3rd laminate style headsail---and my
>> last!
>>
>>
>>
>> I am probably going with the North 3D Nordac which has replaced the
>> former 3DL technology with what they call a composite sail--not laminated
>> but still built over a 3D mold of the sail shape desired--if I understand
>> this correctly. I do not need the super light and costly Raw or Endurance.
>>
>>
>>
>> Anyhow, I plan to move to a new sailing area off Southport, NC near Bald
>> Head Island at the mouth of the Cape Fear River--basically on the NC coast.
>>
>>
>>
>> All my club racing to date has been in the Pamlico and Neuse Rivers,
>> occasionally racing to Ocracoke across the Pamlico Sound. For these areas,
>> a 155% headsail is the largest you can race with locally without penalty
>> and so that is what I have always used.
>>
>>
>>
>> The North sail maker suggested because of the higher coastal winds that I
>> may not need a 155% since the wind strength is higher at the coast. OTOH, a
>> racer there uses a 155% headsail and says he does well with it.
>>
>>
>>
>> I checked the historical average wind speed for Southport and New Bern
>> and the coastal winds are from 20-25% higher than at New Bern.
>>
>> For instance, the avg. wind speed varies from 5.5-8.1 knots in New Bern
>> vs. about 7-10 knots in Southport, or about 25% higher on average.
>>
>>
>>
>> Further, I know from experience that my masthead rig becomes seriously
>> overpowered once the wind gets greater than about 12 knots true, when its
>> time to reef the main(I only have 1 reef point) and if it goes above ~ 15
>> knots, I need to roll the headsail a few turns (or change down to a 135% or
>> 90% headsail).
>>
>>
>>
>> I am not inclined to go less than the 155% allowed locally (PHRF) but
>> maybe I should--the local North guy suggested ~ 140%. This might better
>> match the local wind and is less expensive since less material is used.
>> OTOH, I don't want to be under canvassed on the light air days.
>>
>>
>>
>> Further, there is the question of sail material weight to consider.
>>
>>
>>
>> I plan for this to be my last headsail purchase and may use it some for
>> local cruising in addition to club racing. BTW, it will be used on a furler
>> either way.
>>
>>
>>
>> So what would the listers do!!
>>
>>
>>
>> Charlie Nelson
>>
>> 1995 C 36 XL/kcb
>>
>> Water Phantom
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help
>> with the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list -
>> use PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>> Thanks - Stu
>
>
>
> --
> Debbie Jeffcoatt
> cell 416-251-2650
> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with
> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks
> - Stu

-- 
Joel Delamirande
*www.jdroofing.ca <http://www.jdroofing.ca>*
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

[John McCrea via CnC-List]

This discussion reinforces my racing program, a J-24 to race and my C 36
to cruise. Sails on the 24 are so much cheaper, and the used market from the
top racers supports the rest of us. I bought a set of North Racing sails
used two days at the 2019 nationals last summer. Purchase price 3k for a
spin, main and black Twaron/Technora class 150.. 

I race with four people tops, two that I bred and are still on the college
payroll and one friend. Less people=less beer and food to buy! We have just
as much fun and have the biggest class of 8-10 boats out of 50 or so on Wed
nights. We used to have a 1989 C 37XL and raced that with 8 to ten, very
expensive. All this being said the 36 has two Doyle jibs, a 150 and a 135. I
love the 135! 

John McCrea

Cluster Duck, J 24
Talisman, 36-1

Mystic, CT

-Original Message-
From: David Risch via CnC-List  
Sent: Tuesday, February 9, 2021 5:51 PM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: David Risch 
Subject: Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

Bottom line with sails these days is crew.  How many and how often. Getting
harder and harder (So I hear) to find consistent good crew.   When I raced
with 4 headsails, 3 spinnakers etc. I had 8 on board my 40-2.   Son moved on
in life and the adult day camp program ceased.   When I do race now its
short-handed or solo.   Even a tacking a 135% roller is "fun" in our
Buzzards Bay smokin' SWers when alone or with one.  Now that we can get a
rating bump for a 125% will reduce the headsail to the 125%. And I muuch
prefer the minimal logistics and the solitude/focused conversation with the
less is more crew configuration.

-Original Message-
From: Robert Abbott via CnC-List  
Sent: Tuesday, February 9, 2021 4:42 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Robert Abbott 
Subject: Stus-List New sails, new wind

Interesting discussion on sail selection.  And that is a broad subject. What
kind of racing?

While I have retired from racing, I clearly remember racing with a sail
inventory4 head sails (150% light and heavy air...#1, 135%...#2, and a
100%..#3), 2 spinnakers (systematical 3/4 oz. and a 1/2 oz.).   Many races
we (I as the foredeck person) was changing head sails to suit changes
conditions.  We sometimes did a spinnaker peel (something we practiced). 
The main stayed full until we had to go down to the #3. Much of this racing
was on a C 33 MKII and a C 34R.

Where I sail here in Halifax Harbour, Nova Scotia, Canada, there is no one
sail that works best for any given race day.  I am now a reacher, not a
racer, but I still know the difference in sail selection for the conditions.
I now sail much of the season with a furled 135%...it is my go to
sail...many days my 100% blade is the sail to have...one day last year, a
fellow lister here that we raced a lot together, was coming with me for an
afternoon sail and he said "it is going to be a light air day, bring your
155% light air Kevlar today I did we dropped the 135% and hoisted the
155% and it was the right sail for the day.  The next day, no way could I
hoist the 155%.

One head sail for racing is something I have no knowledge and/or experience
in and therefore have no relevant or helpful advice.

If you wish to race with only one head sail, and your prevailing wind is
around 10 knots true, my best guess would be a 135%.

Robert Abbott
AZURA
C 32 - #277
Halifax, N.S.
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with
the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use
PayPal to send contribution --
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.paypal.
me%2Fstumurraydata=04%7C01%7C%7Cadc793e63f114b78569608d8cd438339%7C84df
9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637485037132009482%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbG
Zsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1
000sdata=rxnSNsd1bq23mCioj%2BXYMJcUKRG2qDTHl4t%2FxffYhAQ%3Dreserve
d=0  Thanks - Stu
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with
the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use
PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks -
Stu
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

[james taylor via CnC-List]

Charlie,
I would not go with the 140%! Either stay with the 155 or go to a 135%.
With a 140 you get no credit on your PHRF rating but a 135 will get you a 3
sec/mile bump. Difference between 135 and 140 will not be noticable. I am
surprised that a sailmaker made that recommendation to you. Getting several
quotes would probably be a good idea. I had my last headsail made by UK
sails (they had a loft in wilmington at the time, not sure they still do).
I went with a 125% and have been very happy with it.
James Taylor
Delaney
C 38
Oriental, NC

On Tue, Feb 9, 2021 at 4:42 PM Robert Abbott via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Interesting discussion on sail selection.  And that is a broad subject.
> What kind of racing?
>
> While I have retired from racing, I clearly remember racing with a sail
> inventory4 head sails (150% light and heavy air...#1, 135%...#2, and
> a 100%..#3), 2 spinnakers (systematical 3/4 oz. and a 1/2 oz.).   Many
> races we (I as the foredeck person) was changing head sails to suit
> changes conditions.  We sometimes did a spinnaker peel (something we
> practiced).  The main stayed full until we had to go down to the #3.
> Much of this racing was on a C 33 MKII and a C 34R.
>
> Where I sail here in Halifax Harbour, Nova Scotia, Canada, there is no
> one sail that works best for any given race day.  I am now a reacher,
> not a racer, but I still know the difference in sail selection for the
> conditions. I now sail much of the season with a furled 135%...it is my
> go to sail...many days my 100% blade is the sail to have...one day last
> year, a fellow lister here that we raced a lot together, was coming with
> me for an afternoon sail and he said "it is going to be a light air day,
> bring your 155% light air Kevlar today I did we dropped the 135% and
> hoisted the 155% and it was the right sail for the day.  The next day,
> no way could I hoist the 155%.
>
> One head sail for racing is something I have no knowledge and/or
> experience in and therefore have no relevant or helpful advice.
>
> If you wish to race with only one head sail, and your prevailing wind is
> around 10 knots true, my best guess would be a 135%.
>
> Robert Abbott
> AZURA
> C 32 - #277
> Halifax, N.S.
> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with
> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks
> - Stu
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

[David Risch via CnC-List]

Bottom line with sails these days is crew.  How many and how often. Getting 
harder and harder (So I hear) to find consistent good crew.   When I raced with 
4 headsails, 3 spinnakers etc. I had 8 on board my 40-2.   Son moved on in life 
and the adult day camp program ceased.   When I do race now its short-handed or 
solo.   Even a tacking a 135% roller is "fun" in our Buzzards Bay smokin' SWers 
when alone or with one.  Now that we can get a rating bump for a 125% will 
reduce the headsail to the 125%. And I muuch prefer the minimal logistics and 
the solitude/focused conversation with the less is more crew configuration.

-Original Message-
From: Robert Abbott via CnC-List  
Sent: Tuesday, February 9, 2021 4:42 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Robert Abbott 
Subject: Stus-List New sails, new wind

Interesting discussion on sail selection.  And that is a broad subject. What 
kind of racing?

While I have retired from racing, I clearly remember racing with a sail
inventory4 head sails (150% light and heavy air...#1, 135%...#2, and a 
100%..#3), 2 spinnakers (systematical 3/4 oz. and a 1/2 oz.).   Many races we 
(I as the foredeck person) was changing head sails to suit changes conditions.  
We sometimes did a spinnaker peel (something we practiced).  The main stayed 
full until we had to go down to the #3. Much of this racing was on a C 33 
MKII and a C 34R.

Where I sail here in Halifax Harbour, Nova Scotia, Canada, there is no one sail 
that works best for any given race day.  I am now a reacher, not a racer, but I 
still know the difference in sail selection for the conditions. I now sail much 
of the season with a furled 135%...it is my go to sail...many days my 100% 
blade is the sail to have...one day last year, a fellow lister here that we 
raced a lot together, was coming with me for an afternoon sail and he said "it 
is going to be a light air day, bring your 155% light air Kevlar today I 
did we dropped the 135% and hoisted the 155% and it was the right sail for the 
day.  The next day, no way could I hoist the 155%.

One head sail for racing is something I have no knowledge and/or experience in 
and therefore have no relevant or helpful advice.

If you wish to race with only one head sail, and your prevailing wind is around 
10 knots true, my best guess would be a 135%.

Robert Abbott
AZURA
C 32 - #277
Halifax, N.S.
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.paypal.me%2Fstumurraydata=04%7C01%7C%7Cadc793e63f114b78569608d8cd438339%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637485037132009482%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000sdata=rxnSNsd1bq23mCioj%2BXYMJcUKRG2qDTHl4t%2FxffYhAQ%3Dreserved=0
  Thanks - Stu
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

[Bob Mann via CnC-List]

Interesting discussion!

On Lake St Clair our 35 mk I OD fleet sailed with 167 as #1.  This year we're 
going to 155 as largest headsail but I can still use 167 on Wednesday races , 
(rating is 132).  We see winds from 0 to 20 true but mostly race in 8-12

Bob Mann
s/v Mystic

> On 02/09/2021 3:20 PM Joel Aronson via CnC-List  
> wrote:
>  
>  
> Charlie,
>  
> At some point you get a credit for a smaller headsail  I would check with 
> my local PHRF and go that way.  A 129 or 134 is a whole lot easier to manage 
> in 10 knots and you will be able to carry full sail just a little longer.  Or 
> keep the 155 just for racing and get a 130 for cruising.  My 2 cents.
>  
> Joel
> 
> On Tue, Feb 9, 2021 at 3:09 PM Bill Coleman via CnC-List < 
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com > wrote:
> 
> > > 
> > You know Charlie,
> > 
> > I am guessing you probably have a Blade, or #3, or something around 
> > 110 – Why don’t you just do a season with that, and weigh all the pros and 
> > cons?
> > 
> > On one hand, I used to have the 135-140, and never felt the need 
> > for anything bigger.  When the wind piped up, 18 – 20 out in the lake, we 
> > would just drop the main, and do great.  I never rolled it up, I just feel 
> > it make for a terrible shape, and also it ruins the sail. For an afternoon 
> > cruise, It was simple to go out  and not even touch the main.
> > 
> > On the other hand, I have been sailing with a 100% the last few 
> > years, and my crew is just blown away at how easy their job has become. It 
> > you are quick with the sheets on a tack, you almost don’t even need to 
> > crank! I think in a race where you are tacking a bit, this can make up for 
> > all the time we would spend cranking the last 5 feet, trying to get back up 
> > to speed, that was brutal!  Plus, that also weighed on my mind when I knew 
> > I needed to tack, but hung on B/C I knew how much we would lose in the 
> > tack. Also, if the crew was still huffing and puffing.   As far as 
> > cruising, I used to think I couldn’t sail with just a blade, but found out 
> > last year it doesn’t do that bad in a breeze. Can’t go 45° go with just a 
> > blade, but it will do 50, if there is a little breeze and you are feeling 
> > lazy.  One place you may lose a bit is going downwind wing and wing with a 
> > pole.
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > I just think trying it for awhile might open your eyes to things 
> > you hadn’t thought of. Plus, you will have another year to save up for the 
> > new sail !
> > 
> >  
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Bill Coleman
> > 
> > Entrada, Erie, PA
> > 
> >  
> > 
> >  
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > From: Charlie Nelson via CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
> > mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com ]
> > Sent: Monday, February 08, 2021 11:23 PM
> > To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> > Cc: cenel...@aol.com mailto:cenel...@aol.com
> > Subject: Stus-List New sails, new wind
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Hello all listers. 
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > I have a hypothetical for the racers among you. 
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > I need to replace my 3DL headsail--its mostly patches after ~ 5 
> > years of club racing locally. This is about my 3rd laminate style 
> > headsail---and my last!
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > I am probably going with the North 3D Nordac which has replaced the 
> > former 3DL technology with what they call a composite sail--not laminated 
> > but still built over a 3D mold of the sail shape desired--if I understand 
> > this correctly. I do not need the super light and costly Raw or Endurance.
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Anyhow, I plan to move to a new sailing area off Southport, NC near 
> > Bald Head Island at the mouth of the Cape Fear River--basically on the NC 
> > coast.
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > All my club racing to date has been in the Pamlico and Neuse 
> > Rivers, occasionally racing to Ocracoke across the Pamlico Sound. For these 
> > areas, a 155% headsail is the largest you can race with locally without 
> > penalty and so that is what I have always used. 
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > The North sail maker suggested because of the higher coastal winds 
> > that I may not need a 155% since the wind strength is higher at the coast. 
> > OTOH, a racer there uses a 155% headsail and says he does well with it. 
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > I checked the historical average wind speed for Southport and New 
> > Bern and the coastal winds are from 20-25% higher than at New Bern. 
> > 
> > For instance, the avg. wind speed varies from 5.5-8.1 knots in New 
> > Bern vs. about 7-10 knots in Southport, or about 25% higher on average.
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Further, I know from experience that my masthead rig becomes 

Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

[CHARLES SCHEAFFER via CnC-List]

Hi Charlie,
Our boats power upwind easily.  If you want one headsail to race, a 135% is 
probably the best allround size.

I've had success racing with my 135%.  It powers upwind and we normally pass 
several boats before getting to the windward mark.  The 110% is too small 
unless you have really strong winds.  I don't carry the sail and just roll my 
140% which flattens as it rolls.  Summer races have always been light and 
flukey and I would like a lighter 135%.  Mine was built for higher winds than I 
use it for.

For racing, I'd like to have a lighter 135% and a super light 155%, but I solo 
99% of the time, so tacking all that around by myself would be a chore and I 
don't have the rail meat to flatten the boat when powered up.  If I buy a new 
headsail, it will probably a lighter 135%.

Chuck Scheaffer Resolute 1989 C 34R Pasadena Md





> On 02/09/2021 3:09 PM Bill Coleman via CnC-List  
> wrote:
>  
>  
> 
> You know Charlie,
> 
> I am guessing you probably have a Blade, or #3, or something around 110 – 
> Why don’t you just do a season with that, and weigh all the pros and cons?
> 
> On one hand, I used to have the 135-140, and never felt the need for 
> anything bigger.  When the wind piped up, 18 – 20 out in the lake, we would 
> just drop the main, and do great.  I never rolled it up, I just feel it make 
> for a terrible shape, and also it ruins the sail. For an afternoon cruise, It 
> was simple to go out  and not even touch the main.
> 
> On the other hand, I have been sailing with a 100% the last few years, 
> and my crew is just blown away at how easy their job has become. It you are 
> quick with the sheets on a tack, you almost don’t even need to crank! I think 
> in a race where you are tacking a bit, this can make up for all the time we 
> would spend cranking the last 5 feet, trying to get back up to speed, that 
> was brutal!  Plus, that also weighed on my mind when I knew I needed to tack, 
> but hung on B/C I knew how much we would lose in the tack. Also, if the crew 
> was still huffing and puffing.   As far as cruising, I used to think I 
> couldn’t sail with just a blade, but found out last year it doesn’t do that 
> bad in a breeze. Can’t go 45° go with just a blade, but it will do 50, if 
> there is a little breeze and you are feeling lazy.  One place you may lose a 
> bit is going downwind wing and wing with a pole.
> 
>  
> 
> I just think trying it for awhile might open your eyes to things you 
> hadn’t thought of. Plus, you will have another year to save up for the new 
> sail !
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> Bill Coleman
> 
> Entrada, Erie, PA
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> From: Charlie Nelson via CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com]
> Sent: Monday, February 08, 2021 11:23 PM
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Cc: cenel...@aol.com
> Subject: Stus-List New sails, new wind
> 
>  
> 
> Hello all listers. 
> 
>  
> 
> I have a hypothetical for the racers among you. 
> 
>  
> 
> I need to replace my 3DL headsail--its mostly patches after ~ 5 years of 
> club racing locally. This is about my 3rd laminate style headsail---and my 
> last!
> 
>  
> 
> I am probably going with the North 3D Nordac which has replaced the 
> former 3DL technology with what they call a composite sail--not laminated but 
> still built over a 3D mold of the sail shape desired--if I understand this 
> correctly. I do not need the super light and costly Raw or Endurance.
> 
>  
> 
> Anyhow, I plan to move to a new sailing area off Southport, NC near Bald 
> Head Island at the mouth of the Cape Fear River--basically on the NC coast.
> 
>  
> 
> All my club racing to date has been in the Pamlico and Neuse Rivers, 
> occasionally racing to Ocracoke across the Pamlico Sound. For these areas, a 
> 155% headsail is the largest you can race with locally without penalty and so 
> that is what I have always used. 
> 
>  
> 
> The North sail maker suggested because of the higher coastal winds that I 
> may not need a 155% since the wind strength is higher at the coast. OTOH, a 
> racer there uses a 155% headsail and says he does well with it. 
> 
>  
> 
> I checked the historical average wind speed for Southport and New Bern 
> and the coastal winds are from 20-25% higher than at New Bern. 
> 
> For instance, the avg. wind speed varies from 5.5-8.1 knots in New Bern 
> vs. about 7-10 knots in Southport, or about 25% higher on average.
> 
>  
> 
> Further, I know from experience that my masthead rig becomes seriously 
> overpowered once the wind gets greater than about 12 knots true, when its 
> time to reef the main(I only have 1 reef point) and if it goes above ~ 15 
> knots, I need to roll the headsail a few turns (or change down to a 135% or 
> 90% headsail).
> 
>  
> 
> I am not inclined to go less than the 155% allowed locally (PHRF) but 
> maybe I should--the 

Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

[Joel Aronson via CnC-List]

Charlie,

At some point you get a credit for a smaller headsail  I would check with
my local PHRF and go that way.  A 129 or 134 is a whole lot easier to
manage in 10 knots and you will be able to carry full sail just a little
longer.  Or keep the 155 just for racing and get a 130 for cruising.  My 2
cents.

Joel

On Tue, Feb 9, 2021 at 3:09 PM Bill Coleman via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> You know Charlie,
>
> I am guessing you probably have a Blade, or #3, or something around 110 –
> Why don’t you just do a season with that, and weigh all the pros and cons?
>
> On one hand, I used to have the 135-140, and never felt the need for
> anything bigger.  When the wind piped up, 18 – 20 out in the lake, we would
> just drop the main, and do great.  I never rolled it up, I just feel it
> make for a terrible shape, and also it ruins the sail. For an afternoon
> cruise, It was simple to go out  and not even touch the main.
>
> On the other hand, I have been sailing with a 100% the last few years, and
> my crew is just blown away at how easy their job has become. It you are
> quick with the sheets on a tack, you almost don’t even need to crank! I
> think in a race where you are tacking a bit, this can make up for all the
> time we would spend cranking the last 5 feet, trying to get back up to
> speed, that was brutal!  Plus, that also weighed on my mind when I knew I
> needed to tack, but hung on B/C I knew how much we would lose in the tack.
> Also, if the crew was still huffing and puffing.   As far as cruising, I
> used to think I couldn’t sail with just a blade, but found out last year it
> doesn’t do that bad in a breeze. Can’t go 45° go with just a blade, but
> it will do 50, if there is a little breeze and you are feeling lazy.  One
> place you may lose a bit is going downwind wing and wing with a pole.
>
>
>
> I just think trying it for awhile might open your eyes to things you
> hadn’t thought of. Plus, you will have another year to save up for the new
> sail !
>
>
>
>
>
> Bill Coleman
>
> Entrada, Erie, PA
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Charlie Nelson via CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com]
> *Sent:* Monday, February 08, 2021 11:23 PM
> *To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> *Cc:* cenel...@aol.com
> *Subject:* Stus-List New sails, new wind
>
>
>
> Hello all listers.
>
>
>
> I have a hypothetical for the racers among you.
>
>
>
> I need to replace my 3DL headsail--its mostly patches after ~ 5 years of
> club racing locally. This is about my 3rd laminate style headsail---and my
> last!
>
>
>
> I am probably going with the North 3D Nordac which has replaced the former
> 3DL technology with what they call a composite sail--not laminated but
> still built over a 3D mold of the sail shape desired--if I understand this
> correctly. I do not need the super light and costly Raw or Endurance.
>
>
>
> Anyhow, I plan to move to a new sailing area off Southport, NC near Bald
> Head Island at the mouth of the Cape Fear River--basically on the NC coast.
>
>
>
> All my club racing to date has been in the Pamlico and Neuse Rivers,
> occasionally racing to Ocracoke across the Pamlico Sound. For these areas,
> a 155% headsail is the largest you can race with locally without penalty
> and so that is what I have always used.
>
>
>
> The North sail maker suggested because of the higher coastal winds that I
> may not need a 155% since the wind strength is higher at the coast. OTOH, a
> racer there uses a 155% headsail and says he does well with it.
>
>
>
> I checked the historical average wind speed for Southport and New Bern and
> the coastal winds are from 20-25% higher than at New Bern.
>
> For instance, the avg. wind speed varies from 5.5-8.1 knots in New Bern
> vs. about 7-10 knots in Southport, or about 25% higher on average.
>
>
>
> Further, I know from experience that my masthead rig becomes seriously
> overpowered once the wind gets greater than about 12 knots true, when its
> time to reef the main(I only have 1 reef point) and if it goes above ~ 15
> knots, I need to roll the headsail a few turns (or change down to a 135% or
> 90% headsail).
>
>
>
> I am not inclined to go less than the 155% allowed locally (PHRF) but
> maybe I should--the local North guy suggested ~ 140%. This might better
> match the local wind and is less expensive since less material is used.
> OTOH, I don't want to be under canvassed on the light air days.
>
>
>
> Further, there is the question of sail material weight to consider.
>
>
>
> I plan for this to be my last headsail purchase and may use it some for
> local cruising in addition to club racing. BTW, it will be used on a furler
> either way.
>
>
>
> So what would the listers do!!
>
>
>
> Charlie Nelson
>
> 1995 C 36 XL/kcb
>
> Water Phantom
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with
> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks
> - 

Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

[Bill Coleman via CnC-List]

You know Charlie, 

I am guessing you probably have a Blade, or #3, or something around 110 – Why 
don’t you just do a season with that, and weigh all the pros and cons?

On one hand, I used to have the 135-140, and never felt the need for anything 
bigger.  When the wind piped up, 18 – 20 out in the lake, we would just drop 
the main, and do great.  I never rolled it up, I just feel it make for a 
terrible shape, and also it ruins the sail. For an afternoon cruise, It was 
simple to go out  and not even touch the main.

On the other hand, I have been sailing with a 100% the last few years, and my 
crew is just blown away at how easy their job has become. It you are quick with 
the sheets on a tack, you almost don’t even need to crank! I think in a race 
where you are tacking a bit, this can make up for all the time we would spend 
cranking the last 5 feet, trying to get back up to speed, that was brutal!  
Plus, that also weighed on my mind when I knew I needed to tack, but hung on 
B/C I knew how much we would lose in the tack. Also, if the crew was still 
huffing and puffing.   As far as cruising, I used to think I couldn’t sail with 
just a blade, but found out last year it doesn’t do that bad in a breeze. Can’t 
go 45° go with just a blade, but it will do 50, if there is a little breeze and 
you are feeling lazy.  One place you may lose a bit is going downwind wing and 
wing with a pole. 

 

I just think trying it for awhile might open your eyes to things you hadn’t 
thought of. Plus, you will have another year to save up for the new sail !

 

 

Bill Coleman

Entrada, Erie, PA

 

 

 

From: Charlie Nelson via CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com] 
Sent: Monday, February 08, 2021 11:23 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: cenel...@aol.com
Subject: Stus-List New sails, new wind

 

Hello all listers.  

 

I have a hypothetical for the racers among you. 

 

I need to replace my 3DL headsail--its mostly patches after ~ 5 years of club 
racing locally. This is about my 3rd laminate style headsail---and my last!

 

I am probably going with the North 3D Nordac which has replaced the former 3DL 
technology with what they call a composite sail--not laminated but still built 
over a 3D mold of the sail shape desired--if I understand this correctly. I do 
not need the super light and costly Raw or Endurance.

 

Anyhow, I plan to move to a new sailing area off Southport, NC near Bald Head 
Island at the mouth of the Cape Fear River--basically on the NC coast.

 

All my club racing to date has been in the Pamlico and Neuse Rivers, 
occasionally racing to Ocracoke across the Pamlico Sound. For these areas, a 
155% headsail is the largest you can race with locally without penalty and so 
that is what I have always used. 

 

The North sail maker suggested because of the higher coastal winds that I may 
not need a 155% since the wind strength is higher at the coast. OTOH, a racer 
there uses a 155% headsail and says he does well with it. 

 

I checked the historical average wind speed for Southport and New Bern and the 
coastal winds are from 20-25% higher than at New Bern. 

For instance, the avg. wind speed varies from 5.5-8.1 knots in New Bern vs. 
about 7-10 knots in Southport, or about 25% higher on average.

 

Further, I know from experience that my masthead rig becomes seriously 
overpowered once the wind gets greater than about 12 knots true, when its time 
to reef the main(I only have 1 reef point) and if it goes above ~ 15 knots, I 
need to roll the headsail a few turns (or change down to a 135% or 90% 
headsail).

 

I am not inclined to go less than the 155% allowed locally (PHRF) but maybe I 
should--the local North guy suggested ~ 140%. This might better match the local 
wind and is less expensive since less material is used. OTOH, I don't want to 
be under canvassed on the light air days. 

 

Further, there is the question of sail material weight to consider. 

 

I plan for this to be my last headsail purchase and may use it some for local 
cruising in addition to club racing. BTW, it will be used on a furler either 
way.

 

So what would the listers do!!

 

Charlie Nelson

1995 C 36 XL/kcb

Water Phantom

 

 

 

 

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

[Matt Janssen via CnC-List]

>From a racing perspective I would consider the rating but also the sheeting
angle.

If you plan to race spinnaker and the 135% is for upwind only; there is a
case to be made about taking advantage of the 3-second credit as others
have noted. However, on most days in a JAM fleet, I would want the 155%
downwind.

On my boat (Eduam), my racing headsails include a 155, 135 and a 95. This
past season, I had to press my cruising 140% Dacron into service as a No 1
when the 155% laminate was pulled through a stanchion one too many times.
The biggest problem with this was the inability to find a decent sheeting
angle for the 140%.

Eduam has both deck mounted track (for No. 2) and a cockpit coaming track
for the No 1 (155%). The deck track is lower and outboard of the cockpit
track. When the 140% was sheeted to the deck, I couldn’t point with the
fleet (too far outboard). However, if I moved it to the cockpit track (in
and up), the track was higher and I would lose the top of the sail. In
short, I was never happy using the tracks for the 140% when racing.  If you
decide to go with a 140%, I would make sure your sailmaker measures your
tracks/cars and you discuss sheeting/pointing as part of the design. I
probably lose 3 or 4-degrees going to the 140 from my 155%.

It is conceivable, my poor sheeting angles are self-inflicted issues due to
my own inexperience when ordering the sail. I was 26 at the time and it was
the first sail I had ever purchased for any boat. I went with a national
brand who had made multiple sets of laminate sails for the previous owner
(much accomplished than I) and deferred to them on the design. But the 140%
seems to be in no-man’s land on my boat in racing trim. Perhaps I should
have asked a few more questions. Live and learn.

As far as cruising with the sail, since most of my cruising is shorthanded,
I was initially leaning towards a 130/135% but was talked into going with a
140%. For most of my cruising in Long Island Sound/Raritan Bay/Hudson
River, I am really glad to have the extra sail area.

A light air sail with the better half and dogs? Roll out the full 140%,
leave the main packed and still enjoy sailing. Breeze pipes up on a
delivery? Roller reefed, the sail comes in at about equivalent to a 100% -
sail balance and pointing suffer a bit - but great for flexibility. Tuck in
a reef or two in the main, and the boat is reasonably under control in any
of the conditions I would consider sailing in.

When cruising, if you prefer to sail in lighter air rather than motor, I
wouldn’t hesitate to go larger than the 135%; especially if you have
confidence in your furler and main reefing systems.  That being said, I am
opposed to using the engine in anything but the most still days – not for
any moral high ground - but because the single cylinder Yanmar is noisy,
scares my dogs, melts the ice and warms the beer. Obviously, your needs may
vary.



Cheers,

matt


*Eduam* - C 27 MkV (564)

RYC New Jersey



> *From:* Charlie Nelson via CnC-List 
> *Sent:* February-09-21 12:23 AM
> *To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> *Cc:* cenel...@aol.com
> *Subject:* Stus-List New sails, new wind
>
>
>
> Hello all listers.
>
>
>
> I have a hypothetical for the racers among you.
>
>
>
> I need to replace my 3DL headsail--its mostly patches after ~ 5 years of
> club racing locally. This is about my 3rd laminate style headsail---and my
> last!
>
>
>
> I am probably going with the North 3D Nordac which has replaced the former
> 3DL technology with what they call a composite sail--not laminated but
> still built over a 3D mold of the sail shape desired--if I understand this
> correctly. I do not need the super light and costly Raw or Endurance.
>
>
>
> Anyhow, I plan to move to a new sailing area off Southport, NC near Bald
> Head Island at the mouth of the Cape Fear River--basically on the NC coast.
>
>
>
> All my club racing to date has been in the Pamlico and Neuse Rivers,
> occasionally racing to Ocracoke across the Pamlico Sound. For these areas,
> a 155% headsail is the largest you can race with locally without penalty
> and so that is what I have always used.
>
>
>
> The North sail maker suggested because of the higher coastal winds that I
> may not need a 155% since the wind strength is higher at the coast. OTOH, a
> racer there uses a 155% headsail and says he does well with it.
>
>
>
> I checked the historical average wind speed for Southport and New Bern and
> the coastal winds are from 20-25% higher than at New Bern.
>
> For instance, the avg. wind speed varies from 5.5-8.1 knots in New Bern
> vs. about 7-10 knots in Southport, or about 25% higher on average.
>
>
>
> Further, I know from experience that my masthead rig becomes seriously
> overpowered once the wind gets greater than about 12 knots true, when its
> time to reef the main(I only have 1 reef point) and if it goes above ~ 15
> knots, I need to roll the headsail a few turns (or change down to a 135% or
> 90% headsail).
>
>
>
> I am not inclined to 

Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

[John Conklin via CnC-List]

Have a 130 on my 37 and this sail also   drives the boat so nicely losing maybe 
a knot of boat speed in  up to 18 knots under only this sail.  With main and 
over 18 she gets furled a bit. This years lots od days over 20 and would have 
loved a 110 its so hard choice.

John Conklin
S/V Halcyon

Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10

From: Debbie Jeffcoatt via CnC-List<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 9, 2021 10:48 AM
To: Stus-List<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
Cc: Debbie Jeffcoatt<mailto:djeffco...@gmail.com>
Subject: Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

We race a 80's C 37 on Lake Ontario, club races with crew plus a double 
handed seriers and switched to a #2 (135%) several years ago, that was built to 
roll down to # 3 if needed.  Our PHRF was adjusted for the smaller head sail.  
We still have the large # 1, but haven't used it since.  Tacking time is a lot 
quicker and much easier when double handed.  Glayva won Boat of the Year in 
2019 with our great crew and this sail.  Our motivation to purchase the # 2, 
came from a C 35 racer in Kingston area.

Debbie
Glayva II
C 37

On Tue, Feb 9, 2021 at 5:49 AM Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
Or keep your old patched 155 and use the 140 for the slightly breezier days and 
forego the reef

From: Rod Stright via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Sent: February 9, 2021 5:30:15 AM
To: 'Stus-List'
Cc: Rod Stright
Subject: Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

Would you get a PHRF adjustment credit by moving to a 135% Roller Furling 
headsail?

Rod Stright
Halifax

From: Charlie Nelson via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Sent: February-09-21 12:23 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
Cc: cenel...@aol.com<mailto:cenel...@aol.com>
Subject: Stus-List New sails, new wind

Hello all listers.

I have a hypothetical for the racers among you.

I need to replace my 3DL headsail--its mostly patches after ~ 5 years of club 
racing locally. This is about my 3rd laminate style headsail---and my last!

I am probably going with the North 3D Nordac which has replaced the former 3DL 
technology with what they call a composite sail--not laminated but still built 
over a 3D mold of the sail shape desired--if I understand this correctly. I do 
not need the super light and costly Raw or Endurance.

Anyhow, I plan to move to a new sailing area off Southport, NC near Bald Head 
Island at the mouth of the Cape Fear River--basically on the NC coast.

All my club racing to date has been in the Pamlico and Neuse Rivers, 
occasionally racing to Ocracoke across the Pamlico Sound. For these areas, a 
155% headsail is the largest you can race with locally without penalty and so 
that is what I have always used.

The North sail maker suggested because of the higher coastal winds that I may 
not need a 155% since the wind strength is higher at the coast. OTOH, a racer 
there uses a 155% headsail and says he does well with it.

I checked the historical average wind speed for Southport and New Bern and the 
coastal winds are from 20-25% higher than at New Bern.
For instance, the avg. wind speed varies from 5.5-8.1 knots in New Bern vs. 
about 7-10 knots in Southport, or about 25% higher on average.

Further, I know from experience that my masthead rig becomes seriously 
overpowered once the wind gets greater than about 12 knots true, when its time 
to reef the main(I only have 1 reef point) and if it goes above ~ 15 knots, I 
need to roll the headsail a few turns (or change down to a 135% or 90% 
headsail).

I am not inclined to go less than the 155% allowed locally (PHRF) but maybe I 
should--the local North guy suggested ~ 140%. This might better match the local 
wind and is less expensive since less material is used. OTOH, I don't want to 
be under canvassed on the light air days.

Further, there is the question of sail material weight to consider.

I plan for this to be my last headsail purchase and may use it some for local 
cruising in addition to club racing. BTW, it will be used on a furler either 
way.

So what would the listers do!!

Charlie Nelson
1995 C 36 XL/kcb
Water Phantom




Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.paypal.me%2Fstumurray=04%7C01%7C%7C173dec3db22f4a0565af08d8cd122539%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637484825149358784%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000=Q3fK0EfK9c0oP6lAbUL%2FpcGkzlJtdsjynCqbG3uCKB8%3D=0>
  Thanks - Stu


--
Debbie Jeffcoatt
cell 416-251-2650

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you

Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

[Glen Dickson via CnC-List]

I’m assuming you race in an area with enough wind to power the boat with a 
110%. Here on Lake Ontario, regular summer night beer can racing is often a 
drifter, and a 110 is the kiss of death. Suit the sails to the prevalent 
conditions. If a 110% is your go-to sail, you have to be in a windy area. If 
it’s moderate with some light air days, consider a 135 that you can partially 
furl at the very least. In light air locations, the best bet is a 155% with a 
back up smaller sail.

 

From: ALAN BERGEN via CnC-List 
Reply-To: Stus-List 
Date: Tuesday, February 9, 2021 at 11:01 AM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: ALAN BERGEN 
Subject: Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

 

When I changed from a 155 to a 135 genoa, I gained six seconds in PHRF with no 
significant change in speed. Next I changed to a 110% genoa. I gained another 
three seconds, slight decrease in speed, but I was able to point five degrees 
higher. I was able to point higher than everyone else in the fleet, getting to 
the windward mark a lot sooner than before switching to a 110.


Alan Bergen

35 Mk III Thirsty

Rose City YC

Portland, OR

 

 

 

On Tue, Feb 9, 2021 at 7:48 AM Debbie Jeffcoatt via CnC-List 
 wrote:

We race a 80's C 37 on Lake Ontario, club races with crew plus a double 
handed seriers and switched to a #2 (135%) several years ago, that was built to 
roll down to # 3 if needed.  Our PHRF was adjusted for the smaller head sail.  
We still have the large # 1, but haven't used it since.  Tacking time is a lot 
quicker and much easier when double handed.  Glayva won Boat of the Year in 
2019 with our great crew and this sail.  Our motivation to purchase the # 2, 
came from a C 35 racer in Kingston area.

 

Debbie

Glayva II

C 37

 

On Tue, Feb 9, 2021 at 5:49 AM Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List  
wrote:

Or keep your old patched 155 and use the 140 for the slightly breezier days and 
forego the reef 

From: Rod Stright via CnC-List 
Sent: February 9, 2021 5:30:15 AM
To: 'Stus-List'
Cc: Rod Stright
Subject: Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind 

 

Would you get a PHRF adjustment credit by moving to a 135% Roller Furling 
headsail?

 

Rod Stright

Halifax

 

From: Charlie Nelson via CnC-List  
Sent: February-09-21 12:23 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: cenel...@aol.com
Subject: Stus-List New sails, new wind

 

Hello all listers.  

 

I have a hypothetical for the racers among you. 

 

I need to replace my 3DL headsail--its mostly patches after ~ 5 years of club 
racing locally. This is about my 3rd laminate style headsail---and my last!

 

I am probably going with the North 3D Nordac which has replaced the former 3DL 
technology with what they call a composite sail--not laminated but still built 
over a 3D mold of the sail shape desired--if I understand this correctly. I do 
not need the super light and costly Raw or Endurance.

 

Anyhow, I plan to move to a new sailing area off Southport, NC near Bald Head 
Island at the mouth of the Cape Fear River--basically on the NC coast.

 

All my club racing to date has been in the Pamlico and Neuse Rivers, 
occasionally racing to Ocracoke across the Pamlico Sound. For these areas, a 
155% headsail is the largest you can race with locally without penalty and so 
that is what I have always used. 

 

The North sail maker suggested because of the higher coastal winds that I may 
not need a 155% since the wind strength is higher at the coast. OTOH, a racer 
there uses a 155% headsail and says he does well with it. 

 

I checked the historical average wind speed for Southport and New Bern and the 
coastal winds are from 20-25% higher than at New Bern. 

For instance, the avg. wind speed varies from 5.5-8.1 knots in New Bern vs. 
about 7-10 knots in Southport, or about 25% higher on average.

 

Further, I know from experience that my masthead rig becomes seriously 
overpowered once the wind gets greater than about 12 knots true, when its time 
to reef the main(I only have 1 reef point) and if it goes above ~ 15 knots, I 
need to roll the headsail a few turns (or change down to a 135% or 90% 
headsail).

 

I am not inclined to go less than the 155% allowed locally (PHRF) but maybe I 
should--the local North guy suggested ~ 140%. This might better match the local 
wind and is less expensive since less material is used. OTOH, I don't want to 
be under canvassed on the light air days. 

 

Further, there is the question of sail material weight to consider. 

 

I plan for this to be my last headsail purchase and may use it some for local 
cruising in addition to club racing. BTW, it will be used on a furler either 
way.

 

So what would the listers do!!

 

Charlie Nelson

1995 C 36 XL/kcb

Water Phantom

 

 

 

 

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu



-- 

Debbie Jeffcoatt

cell 416-251-2650

Thanks to all

Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

[Rod Stright via CnC-List]

That should have read PHRF NC rules

 

From: Rod Stright via CnC-List  
Sent: February-09-21 12:01 PM
To: cenel...@aol.com
Cc: 'Stus-List' ; Rod Stright 
Subject: Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

 

>From PHRF NS Handicap Racing Fleet Rules section 3

 

“HANDICAP ADJUSTMENTS A. HEADSAILS Adjustment is based on the largest jib or 
genoa and determined by the LP/J ratio stated as a percent. No adjustment is 
made for the largest headsail having an LP/J greater than 135% and less than or 
equal to 155%. If the largest headsail has an LP/J of 111% to 135% a credit of 
3 (three) seconds per mile will given

 

Rod

 

From: cenel...@aol.com <mailto:cenel...@aol.com>  mailto:cenel...@aol.com> > 
Sent: February-09-21 11:07 AM
To: strig...@eastlink.ca <mailto:strig...@eastlink.ca> 
Subject: Re: Stus-List New sails, new wind

 

Unfortunately no--NC-PHRF assumes that anyone with a rating will fly up to a 
155% genoa and a proper sized kite. They give a credit for the roller furling 
(3 sec/mile) but not for smaller headsails and you get one rating whether you 
go non-spin or spin. 

 

Charlie

-Original Message-
From: Rod Stright mailto:strig...@eastlink.ca> >
To: 'Stus-List' mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> >
Cc: cenel...@aol.com <mailto:cenel...@aol.com> 
Sent: Tue, Feb 9, 2021 4:30 am
Subject: RE: Stus-List New sails, new wind

Would you get a PHRF adjustment credit by moving to a 135% Roller Furling 
headsail?

 

Rod Stright

Halifax

 

From: Charlie Nelson via CnC-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > 
Sent: February-09-21 12:23 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
Cc: cenel...@aol.com <mailto:cenel...@aol.com> 
Subject: Stus-List New sails, new wind

 

Hello all listers.  

 

I have a hypothetical for the racers among you. 

 

I need to replace my 3DL headsail--its mostly patches after ~ 5 years of club 
racing locally. This is about my 3rd laminate style headsail---and my last!

 

I am probably going with the North 3D Nordac which has replaced the former 3DL 
technology with what they call a composite sail--not laminated but still built 
over a 3D mold of the sail shape desired--if I understand this correctly. I do 
not need the super light and costly Raw or Endurance.

 

Anyhow, I plan to move to a new sailing area off Southport, NC near Bald Head 
Island at the mouth of the Cape Fear River--basically on the NC coast.

 

All my club racing to date has been in the Pamlico and Neuse Rivers, 
occasionally racing to Ocracoke across the Pamlico Sound. For these areas, a 
155% headsail is the largest you can race with locally without penalty and so 
that is what I have always used. 

 

The North sail maker suggested because of the higher coastal winds that I may 
not need a 155% since the wind strength is higher at the coast. OTOH, a racer 
there uses a 155% headsail and says he does well with it. 

 

I checked the historical average wind speed for Southport and New Bern and the 
coastal winds are from 20-25% higher than at New Bern. 

For instance, the avg. wind speed varies from 5.5-8.1 knots in New Bern vs. 
about 7-10 knots in Southport, or about 25% higher on average.

 

Further, I know from experience that my masthead rig becomes seriously 
overpowered once the wind gets greater than about 12 knots true, when its time 
to reef the main(I only have 1 reef point) and if it goes above ~ 15 knots, I 
need to roll the headsail a few turns (or change down to a 135% or 90% 
headsail).

 

I am not inclined to go less than the 155% allowed locally (PHRF) but maybe I 
should--the local North guy suggested ~ 140%. This might better match the local 
wind and is less expensive since less material is used. OTOH, I don't want to 
be under canvassed on the light air days. 

 

Further, there is the question of sail material weight to consider. 

 

I plan for this to be my last headsail purchase and may use it some for local 
cruising in addition to club racing. BTW, it will be used on a furler either 
way.

 

So what would the listers do!!

 

Charlie Nelson

1995 C 36 XL/kcb

Water Phantom

 

 

 

 

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

[ALAN BERGEN via CnC-List]

When I changed from a 155 to a 135 genoa, I gained six seconds in PHRF with
no significant change in speed. Next I changed to a 110% genoa. I gained
another three seconds, slight decrease in speed, but I was able to point
five degrees higher. I was able to point higher than everyone else in the
fleet, getting to the windward mark a lot sooner than before switching to a
110.

Alan Bergen
35 Mk III Thirsty
Rose City YC
Portland, OR



On Tue, Feb 9, 2021 at 7:48 AM Debbie Jeffcoatt via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> We race a 80's C 37 on Lake Ontario, club races with crew plus a double
> handed seriers and switched to a #2 (135%) several years ago, that was
> built to roll down to # 3 if needed.  Our PHRF was adjusted for the smaller
> head sail.  We still have the large # 1, but haven't used it since.
> Tacking time is a lot quicker and much easier when double handed.  Glayva
> won Boat of the Year in 2019 with our great crew and this sail.  Our
> motivation to purchase the # 2, came from a C 35 racer in Kingston area.
>
> Debbie
> Glayva II
> C 37
>
> On Tue, Feb 9, 2021 at 5:49 AM Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
>> Or keep your old patched 155 and use the 140 for the slightly breezier
>> days and forego the reef
>> --
>> *From:* Rod Stright via CnC-List 
>> *Sent:* February 9, 2021 5:30:15 AM
>> *To:* 'Stus-List'
>> *Cc:* Rod Stright
>> *Subject:* Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind
>>
>>
>> Would you get a PHRF adjustment credit by moving to a 135% Roller Furling
>> headsail?
>>
>>
>>
>> Rod Stright
>>
>> Halifax
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Charlie Nelson via CnC-List 
>> *Sent:* February-09-21 12:23 AM
>> *To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com
>> *Cc:* cenel...@aol.com
>> *Subject:* Stus-List New sails, new wind
>>
>>
>>
>> Hello all listers.
>>
>>
>>
>> I have a hypothetical for the racers among you.
>>
>>
>>
>> I need to replace my 3DL headsail--its mostly patches after ~ 5 years of
>> club racing locally. This is about my 3rd laminate style headsail---and my
>> last!
>>
>>
>>
>> I am probably going with the North 3D Nordac which has replaced the
>> former 3DL technology with what they call a composite sail--not laminated
>> but still built over a 3D mold of the sail shape desired--if I understand
>> this correctly. I do not need the super light and costly Raw or Endurance.
>>
>>
>>
>> Anyhow, I plan to move to a new sailing area off Southport, NC near Bald
>> Head Island at the mouth of the Cape Fear River--basically on the NC coast.
>>
>>
>>
>> All my club racing to date has been in the Pamlico and Neuse Rivers,
>> occasionally racing to Ocracoke across the Pamlico Sound. For these areas,
>> a 155% headsail is the largest you can race with locally without penalty
>> and so that is what I have always used.
>>
>>
>>
>> The North sail maker suggested because of the higher coastal winds that I
>> may not need a 155% since the wind strength is higher at the coast. OTOH, a
>> racer there uses a 155% headsail and says he does well with it.
>>
>>
>>
>> I checked the historical average wind speed for Southport and New Bern
>> and the coastal winds are from 20-25% higher than at New Bern.
>>
>> For instance, the avg. wind speed varies from 5.5-8.1 knots in New Bern
>> vs. about 7-10 knots in Southport, or about 25% higher on average.
>>
>>
>>
>> Further, I know from experience that my masthead rig becomes seriously
>> overpowered once the wind gets greater than about 12 knots true, when its
>> time to reef the main(I only have 1 reef point) and if it goes above ~ 15
>> knots, I need to roll the headsail a few turns (or change down to a 135% or
>> 90% headsail).
>>
>>
>>
>> I am not inclined to go less than the 155% allowed locally (PHRF) but
>> maybe I should--the local North guy suggested ~ 140%. This might better
>> match the local wind and is less expensive since less material is used.
>> OTOH, I don't want to be under canvassed on the light air days.
>>
>>
>>
>> Further, there is the question of sail material weight to consider.
>>
>>
>>
>> I plan for this to be my last headsail purchase and may use it some for
>> local cruising in addition to club racing. BTW, it will be used on a furler
>> either way.
>>
>>
>>
>> So what would the listers do!!
>>
>>
>>
>> Charlie Nelson
>

Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

[Rod Stright via CnC-List]

>From PHRF NS Handicap Racing Fleet Rules section 3

 

“HANDICAP ADJUSTMENTS A. HEADSAILS Adjustment is based on the largest jib or 
genoa and determined by the LP/J ratio stated as a percent. No adjustment is 
made for the largest headsail having an LP/J greater than 135% and less than or 
equal to 155%. If the largest headsail has an LP/J of 111% to 135% a credit of 
3 (three) seconds per mile will given

 

Rod

 

From: cenel...@aol.com  
Sent: February-09-21 11:07 AM
To: strig...@eastlink.ca
Subject: Re: Stus-List New sails, new wind

 

Unfortunately no--NC-PHRF assumes that anyone with a rating will fly up to a 
155% genoa and a proper sized kite. They give a credit for the roller furling 
(3 sec/mile) but not for smaller headsails and you get one rating whether you 
go non-spin or spin. 

 

Charlie



-Original Message-
From: Rod Stright mailto:strig...@eastlink.ca> >
To: 'Stus-List' mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> >
Cc: cenel...@aol.com  
Sent: Tue, Feb 9, 2021 4:30 am
Subject: RE: Stus-List New sails, new wind

Would you get a PHRF adjustment credit by moving to a 135% Roller Furling 
headsail?

 

Rod Stright

Halifax

 

From: Charlie Nelson via CnC-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > 
Sent: February-09-21 12:23 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com  
Cc: cenel...@aol.com  
Subject: Stus-List New sails, new wind

 

Hello all listers.  

 

I have a hypothetical for the racers among you. 

 

I need to replace my 3DL headsail--its mostly patches after ~ 5 years of club 
racing locally. This is about my 3rd laminate style headsail---and my last!

 

I am probably going with the North 3D Nordac which has replaced the former 3DL 
technology with what they call a composite sail--not laminated but still built 
over a 3D mold of the sail shape desired--if I understand this correctly. I do 
not need the super light and costly Raw or Endurance.

 

Anyhow, I plan to move to a new sailing area off Southport, NC near Bald Head 
Island at the mouth of the Cape Fear River--basically on the NC coast.

 

All my club racing to date has been in the Pamlico and Neuse Rivers, 
occasionally racing to Ocracoke across the Pamlico Sound. For these areas, a 
155% headsail is the largest you can race with locally without penalty and so 
that is what I have always used. 

 

The North sail maker suggested because of the higher coastal winds that I may 
not need a 155% since the wind strength is higher at the coast. OTOH, a racer 
there uses a 155% headsail and says he does well with it. 

 

I checked the historical average wind speed for Southport and New Bern and the 
coastal winds are from 20-25% higher than at New Bern. 

For instance, the avg. wind speed varies from 5.5-8.1 knots in New Bern vs. 
about 7-10 knots in Southport, or about 25% higher on average.

 

Further, I know from experience that my masthead rig becomes seriously 
overpowered once the wind gets greater than about 12 knots true, when its time 
to reef the main(I only have 1 reef point) and if it goes above ~ 15 knots, I 
need to roll the headsail a few turns (or change down to a 135% or 90% 
headsail).

 

I am not inclined to go less than the 155% allowed locally (PHRF) but maybe I 
should--the local North guy suggested ~ 140%. This might better match the local 
wind and is less expensive since less material is used. OTOH, I don't want to 
be under canvassed on the light air days. 

 

Further, there is the question of sail material weight to consider. 

 

I plan for this to be my last headsail purchase and may use it some for local 
cruising in addition to club racing. BTW, it will be used on a furler either 
way.

 

So what would the listers do!!

 

Charlie Nelson

1995 C 36 XL/kcb

Water Phantom

 

 

 

 

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

[Debbie Jeffcoatt via CnC-List]

We race a 80's C 37 on Lake Ontario, club races with crew plus a double
handed seriers and switched to a #2 (135%) several years ago, that was
built to roll down to # 3 if needed.  Our PHRF was adjusted for the smaller
head sail.  We still have the large # 1, but haven't used it since.
Tacking time is a lot quicker and much easier when double handed.  Glayva
won Boat of the Year in 2019 with our great crew and this sail.  Our
motivation to purchase the # 2, came from a C 35 racer in Kingston area.

Debbie
Glayva II
C 37

On Tue, Feb 9, 2021 at 5:49 AM Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Or keep your old patched 155 and use the 140 for the slightly breezier
> days and forego the reef
> --
> *From:* Rod Stright via CnC-List 
> *Sent:* February 9, 2021 5:30:15 AM
> *To:* 'Stus-List'
> *Cc:* Rod Stright
> *Subject:* Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind
>
>
> Would you get a PHRF adjustment credit by moving to a 135% Roller Furling
> headsail?
>
>
>
> Rod Stright
>
> Halifax
>
>
>
> *From:* Charlie Nelson via CnC-List 
> *Sent:* February-09-21 12:23 AM
> *To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> *Cc:* cenel...@aol.com
> *Subject:* Stus-List New sails, new wind
>
>
>
> Hello all listers.
>
>
>
> I have a hypothetical for the racers among you.
>
>
>
> I need to replace my 3DL headsail--its mostly patches after ~ 5 years of
> club racing locally. This is about my 3rd laminate style headsail---and my
> last!
>
>
>
> I am probably going with the North 3D Nordac which has replaced the former
> 3DL technology with what they call a composite sail--not laminated but
> still built over a 3D mold of the sail shape desired--if I understand this
> correctly. I do not need the super light and costly Raw or Endurance.
>
>
>
> Anyhow, I plan to move to a new sailing area off Southport, NC near Bald
> Head Island at the mouth of the Cape Fear River--basically on the NC coast.
>
>
>
> All my club racing to date has been in the Pamlico and Neuse Rivers,
> occasionally racing to Ocracoke across the Pamlico Sound. For these areas,
> a 155% headsail is the largest you can race with locally without penalty
> and so that is what I have always used.
>
>
>
> The North sail maker suggested because of the higher coastal winds that I
> may not need a 155% since the wind strength is higher at the coast. OTOH, a
> racer there uses a 155% headsail and says he does well with it.
>
>
>
> I checked the historical average wind speed for Southport and New Bern and
> the coastal winds are from 20-25% higher than at New Bern.
>
> For instance, the avg. wind speed varies from 5.5-8.1 knots in New Bern
> vs. about 7-10 knots in Southport, or about 25% higher on average.
>
>
>
> Further, I know from experience that my masthead rig becomes seriously
> overpowered once the wind gets greater than about 12 knots true, when its
> time to reef the main(I only have 1 reef point) and if it goes above ~ 15
> knots, I need to roll the headsail a few turns (or change down to a 135% or
> 90% headsail).
>
>
>
> I am not inclined to go less than the 155% allowed locally (PHRF) but
> maybe I should--the local North guy suggested ~ 140%. This might better
> match the local wind and is less expensive since less material is used.
> OTOH, I don't want to be under canvassed on the light air days.
>
>
>
> Further, there is the question of sail material weight to consider.
>
>
>
> I plan for this to be my last headsail purchase and may use it some for
> local cruising in addition to club racing. BTW, it will be used on a furler
> either way.
>
>
>
> So what would the listers do!!
>
>
>
> Charlie Nelson
>
> 1995 C 36 XL/kcb
>
> Water Phantom
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with
> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks
> - Stu



-- 
Debbie Jeffcoatt
cell 416-251-2650
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

[Matthew via CnC-List]

Charlie:

 

It appears you are considering the correct factors.  “Average” 
wind speed can be misleading.  It depends how it’s being averaged.  Time of 
day, time of year, time when racing usually occurs, etc., can all factor in.  
For example, in Erie our Wednesday evening races are often light air because 
the wind tends to die in the evenings during most of the racing season.  If I 
looked at the average wind speed for the whole day, it would be higher than 
when we race.

 

I commented on NorDac a couple weeks ago.  If they get the 
shape right (which they did not do on my mainsail), it could be a reasonably 
fast, durable sail.  Given the surprising bulk, I suggest looking at a NorDac 
sail up close before ordering.

 

When I bought my boat it had a 135% furling dacron genoa.  For 
“real” racing (which I don’t do a lot of), I have a Doyle 153% racing genoa.  
For our Wednesday evening FJAM races, I would use the 135%, but we were always 
unpowered.  I did not want to change out to the good sail just for FJAM racing, 
so I decided to replace my 135% with a North 153% dacron (not NorDac) furling 
genoa, which I also use for cruising.   It has held up well for several years.  
I had it washed last year in the off-season, and it looks good.  Appears to be 
holding its shape.

 

Matt 

 

From: Charlie Nelson via CnC-List  
Sent: Monday, February 08, 2021 11:23 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: cenel...@aol.com
Subject: Stus-List New sails, new wind

 

Hello all listers.  

 

I have a hypothetical for the racers among you. 

 

I need to replace my 3DL headsail--its mostly patches after ~ 5 years of club 
racing locally. This is about my 3rd laminate style headsail---and my last!

 

I am probably going with the North 3D Nordac which has replaced the former 3DL 
technology with what they call a composite sail--not laminated but still built 
over a 3D mold of the sail shape desired--if I understand this correctly. I do 
not need the super light and costly Raw or Endurance.

 

Anyhow, I plan to move to a new sailing area off Southport, NC near Bald Head 
Island at the mouth of the Cape Fear River--basically on the NC coast.

 

All my club racing to date has been in the Pamlico and Neuse Rivers, 
occasionally racing to Ocracoke across the Pamlico Sound. For these areas, a 
155% headsail is the largest you can race with locally without penalty and so 
that is what I have always used. 

 

The North sail maker suggested because of the higher coastal winds that I may 
not need a 155% since the wind strength is higher at the coast. OTOH, a racer 
there uses a 155% headsail and says he does well with it. 

 

I checked the historical average wind speed for Southport and New Bern and the 
coastal winds are from 20-25% higher than at New Bern. 

For instance, the avg. wind speed varies from 5.5-8.1 knots in New Bern vs. 
about 7-10 knots in Southport, or about 25% higher on average.

 

Further, I know from experience that my masthead rig becomes seriously 
overpowered once the wind gets greater than about 12 knots true, when its time 
to reef the main(I only have 1 reef point) and if it goes above ~ 15 knots, I 
need to roll the headsail a few turns (or change down to a 135% or 90% 
headsail).

 

I am not inclined to go less than the 155% allowed locally (PHRF) but maybe I 
should--the local North guy suggested ~ 140%. This might better match the local 
wind and is less expensive since less material is used. OTOH, I don't want to 
be under canvassed on the light air days. 

 

Further, there is the question of sail material weight to consider. 

 

I plan for this to be my last headsail purchase and may use it some for local 
cruising in addition to club racing. BTW, it will be used on a furler either 
way.

 

So what would the listers do!!

 

Charlie Nelson

1995 C 36 XL/kcb

Water Phantom

 

 

 

 

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

[WILLIAM WALKER via CnC-List]

 Charlie,   I sail  and race Lake Michigan.  I moved from a UK laminate to 
Nordac in 2019.  My previous UK was a 145, furled beautifully.I went with a 150 
Nordac since I too felt I gave up too much on August light air days.   It is a 
MUCH heavier sail, but still furls nicely, though the furled profile is larger. 
 More weight aloft for sure.   Unless your phrf area is different than Lake 
Michigan phrf rules you will not get any additional credit (beyond the normal 
3% for furling headsail) for going to a smaller head sail.  Undersized sails 
are not credited here.  Check the rules for your area.   I think the Nordac are 
well made, good shape.  I wasnt quite ready for the weight and bulk when 
furled.  Bill Walker CnC 36Pentwater, Michigan         
On Monday, February 8, 2021, 11:23:05 PM EST, Charlie Nelson via CnC-List 
 wrote:  
 
 Hello all listers. 
I have a hypothetical for the racers among you. 
I need to replace my 3DL headsail--its mostly patches after ~ 5 years of club 
racing locally. This is about my 3rd laminate style headsail---and my last!
I am probably going with the North 3D Nordac which has replaced the former 3DL 
technology with what they call a composite sail--not laminated but still built 
over a 3D mold of the sail shape desired--if I understand this correctly. I do 
not need the super light and costly Raw or Endurance.
Anyhow, I plan to move to a new sailing area off Southport, NC near Bald Head 
Island at the mouth of the Cape Fear River--basically on the NC coast.
All my club racing to date has been in the Pamlico and Neuse Rivers, 
occasionally racing to Ocracoke across the Pamlico Sound. For these areas, a 
155% headsail is the largest you can race with locally without penalty and so 
that is what I have always used. 
The North sail maker suggested because of the higher coastal winds that I may 
not need a 155% since the wind strength is higher at the coast. OTOH, a racer 
there uses a 155% headsail and says he does well with it. 
I checked the historical average wind speed for Southport and New Bern and the 
coastal winds are from 20-25% higher than at New Bern. For instance, the avg. 
wind speed varies from 5.5-8.1 knots in New Bern vs. about 7-10 knots in 
Southport, or about 25% higher on average.
Further, I know from experience that my masthead rig becomes seriously 
overpowered once the wind gets greater than about 12 knots true, when its time 
to reef the main(I only have 1 reef point) and if it goes above ~ 15 knots, I 
need to roll the headsail a few turns (or change down to a 135% or 90% 
headsail).
I am not inclined to go less than the 155% allowed locally (PHRF) but maybe I 
should--the local North guy suggested ~ 140%. This might better match the local 
wind and is less expensive since less material is used. OTOH, I don't want to 
be under canvassed on the light air days. 
Further, there is the question of sail material weight to consider. 
I plan for this to be my last headsail purchase and may use it some for local 
cruising in addition to club racing. BTW, it will be used on a furler either 
way.
So what would the listers do!!
Charlie Nelson1995 C 36 XL/kcbWater Phantom



Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --  https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu  Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

[Glendickson--- via CnC-List]

I sail with a 155% 3Di composite sail. They are not made to be reefed on a 
furler. If you are overpowered at a ‘moderate’ wind speed, either step it down 
in size, or consider carrying a smaller sail in inventory. That’s why most of 
us club racers are broke...

> On Feb 9, 2021, at 7:08 AM, David Risch via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> As long as you get a rating adjustment go 140-145.   Less cost.  Less wear 
> and tear on boat, crew, sail and rig.   Much more manageable and better shape 
> when  roller furl.  
>  
> From: Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List  
> Sent: Tuesday, February 9, 2021 5:50 AM
> To: Stus-List 
> Cc: Hoyt, Mike 
> Subject: Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind
>  
> Or keep your old patched 155 and use the 140 for the slightly breezier days 
> and forego the reef
> From: Rod Stright via CnC-List 
> Sent: February 9, 2021 5:30:15 AM
> To: 'Stus-List'
> Cc: Rod Stright
> Subject: Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind
>  
> Would you get a PHRF adjustment credit by moving to a 135% Roller Furling 
> headsail?
>  
> Rod Stright
> Halifax
>  
> From: Charlie Nelson via CnC-List  
> Sent: February-09-21 12:23 AM
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Cc: cenel...@aol.com
> Subject: Stus-List New sails, new wind
>  
> Hello all listers. 
>  
> I have a hypothetical for the racers among you. 
>  
> I need to replace my 3DL headsail--its mostly patches after ~ 5 years of club 
> racing locally. This is about my 3rd laminate style headsail---and my last!
>  
> I am probably going with the North 3D Nordac which has replaced the former 
> 3DL technology with what they call a composite sail--not laminated but still 
> built over a 3D mold of the sail shape desired--if I understand this 
> correctly. I do not need the super light and costly Raw or Endurance.
>  
> Anyhow, I plan to move to a new sailing area off Southport, NC near Bald Head 
> Island at the mouth of the Cape Fear River--basically on the NC coast.
>  
> All my club racing to date has been in the Pamlico and Neuse Rivers, 
> occasionally racing to Ocracoke across the Pamlico Sound. For these areas, a 
> 155% headsail is the largest you can race with locally without penalty and so 
> that is what I have always used. 
>  
> The North sail maker suggested because of the higher coastal winds that I may 
> not need a 155% since the wind strength is higher at the coast. OTOH, a racer 
> there uses a 155% headsail and says he does well with it. 
>  
> I checked the historical average wind speed for Southport and New Bern and 
> the coastal winds are from 20-25% higher than at New Bern. 
> For instance, the avg. wind speed varies from 5.5-8.1 knots in New Bern vs. 
> about 7-10 knots in Southport, or about 25% higher on average.
>  
> Further, I know from experience that my masthead rig becomes seriously 
> overpowered once the wind gets greater than about 12 knots true, when its 
> time to reef the main(I only have 1 reef point) and if it goes above ~ 15 
> knots, I need to roll the headsail a few turns (or change down to a 135% or 
> 90% headsail).
>  
> I am not inclined to go less than the 155% allowed locally (PHRF) but maybe I 
> should--the local North guy suggested ~ 140%. This might better match the 
> local wind and is less expensive since less material is used. OTOH, I don't 
> want to be under canvassed on the light air days. 
>  
> Further, there is the question of sail material weight to consider. 
>  
> I plan for this to be my last headsail purchase and may use it some for local 
> cruising in addition to club racing. BTW, it will be used on a furler either 
> way.
>  
> So what would the listers do!!
>  
> Charlie Nelson
> 1995 C 36 XL/kcb
> Water Phantom
>  
>  
>  
>  
> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with 
> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use 
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

[Rod Stright via CnC-List]

I believe you could get a 3 second adjustment if the sail is 135% or less
and another 3 sec if it is a RF headsail tacked above the drum provided you
do not already get that credit.  That would apply to whatever headsails you
have as long as they fit on the RF.

 

Rod

 

From: David Risch via CnC-List  
Sent: February-09-21 8:09 AM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: David Risch 
Subject: Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

 

As long as you get a rating adjustment go 140-145.   Less cost.  Less wear
and tear on boat, crew, sail and rig.   Much more manageable and better
shape when  roller furl.   

 

From: Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > 
Sent: Tuesday, February 9, 2021 5:50 AM
To: Stus-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> >
Cc: Hoyt, Mike mailto:mike.h...@impgroup.com> >
Subject: Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

 

Or keep your old patched 155 and use the 140 for the slightly breezier days
and forego the reef 

  _  

From: Rod Stright via CnC-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> >
Sent: February 9, 2021 5:30:15 AM
To: 'Stus-List'
Cc: Rod Stright
Subject: Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind 

 

Would you get a PHRF adjustment credit by moving to a 135% Roller Furling
headsail?

 

Rod Stright

Halifax

 

From: Charlie Nelson via CnC-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > 
Sent: February-09-21 12:23 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
Cc: cenel...@aol.com <mailto:cenel...@aol.com> 
Subject: Stus-List New sails, new wind

 

Hello all listers.  

 

I have a hypothetical for the racers among you. 

 

I need to replace my 3DL headsail--its mostly patches after ~ 5 years of
club racing locally. This is about my 3rd laminate style headsail---and my
last!

 

I am probably going with the North 3D Nordac which has replaced the former
3DL technology with what they call a composite sail--not laminated but still
built over a 3D mold of the sail shape desired--if I understand this
correctly. I do not need the super light and costly Raw or Endurance.

 

Anyhow, I plan to move to a new sailing area off Southport, NC near Bald
Head Island at the mouth of the Cape Fear River--basically on the NC coast.

 

All my club racing to date has been in the Pamlico and Neuse Rivers,
occasionally racing to Ocracoke across the Pamlico Sound. For these areas, a
155% headsail is the largest you can race with locally without penalty and
so that is what I have always used. 

 

The North sail maker suggested because of the higher coastal winds that I
may not need a 155% since the wind strength is higher at the coast. OTOH, a
racer there uses a 155% headsail and says he does well with it. 

 

I checked the historical average wind speed for Southport and New Bern and
the coastal winds are from 20-25% higher than at New Bern. 

For instance, the avg. wind speed varies from 5.5-8.1 knots in New Bern vs.
about 7-10 knots in Southport, or about 25% higher on average.

 

Further, I know from experience that my masthead rig becomes seriously
overpowered once the wind gets greater than about 12 knots true, when its
time to reef the main(I only have 1 reef point) and if it goes above ~ 15
knots, I need to roll the headsail a few turns (or change down to a 135% or
90% headsail).

 

I am not inclined to go less than the 155% allowed locally (PHRF) but maybe
I should--the local North guy suggested ~ 140%. This might better match the
local wind and is less expensive since less material is used. OTOH, I don't
want to be under canvassed on the light air days. 

 

Further, there is the question of sail material weight to consider. 

 

I plan for this to be my last headsail purchase and may use it some for
local cruising in addition to club racing. BTW, it will be used on a furler
either way.

 

So what would the listers do!!

 

Charlie Nelson

1995 C 36 XL/kcb

Water Phantom

 

 

 

 

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

[David Risch via CnC-List]

As long as you get a rating adjustment go 140-145.   Less cost.  Less wear and 
tear on boat, crew, sail and rig.   Much more manageable and better shape when  
roller furl.

From: Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List 
Sent: Tuesday, February 9, 2021 5:50 AM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Hoyt, Mike 
Subject: Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

Or keep your old patched 155 and use the 140 for the slightly breezier days and 
forego the reef

From: Rod Stright via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Sent: February 9, 2021 5:30:15 AM
To: 'Stus-List'
Cc: Rod Stright
Subject: Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

Would you get a PHRF adjustment credit by moving to a 135% Roller Furling 
headsail?

Rod Stright
Halifax

From: Charlie Nelson via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Sent: February-09-21 12:23 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
Cc: cenel...@aol.com<mailto:cenel...@aol.com>
Subject: Stus-List New sails, new wind

Hello all listers.

I have a hypothetical for the racers among you.

I need to replace my 3DL headsail--its mostly patches after ~ 5 years of club 
racing locally. This is about my 3rd laminate style headsail---and my last!

I am probably going with the North 3D Nordac which has replaced the former 3DL 
technology with what they call a composite sail--not laminated but still built 
over a 3D mold of the sail shape desired--if I understand this correctly. I do 
not need the super light and costly Raw or Endurance.

Anyhow, I plan to move to a new sailing area off Southport, NC near Bald Head 
Island at the mouth of the Cape Fear River--basically on the NC coast.

All my club racing to date has been in the Pamlico and Neuse Rivers, 
occasionally racing to Ocracoke across the Pamlico Sound. For these areas, a 
155% headsail is the largest you can race with locally without penalty and so 
that is what I have always used.

The North sail maker suggested because of the higher coastal winds that I may 
not need a 155% since the wind strength is higher at the coast. OTOH, a racer 
there uses a 155% headsail and says he does well with it.

I checked the historical average wind speed for Southport and New Bern and the 
coastal winds are from 20-25% higher than at New Bern.
For instance, the avg. wind speed varies from 5.5-8.1 knots in New Bern vs. 
about 7-10 knots in Southport, or about 25% higher on average.

Further, I know from experience that my masthead rig becomes seriously 
overpowered once the wind gets greater than about 12 knots true, when its time 
to reef the main(I only have 1 reef point) and if it goes above ~ 15 knots, I 
need to roll the headsail a few turns (or change down to a 135% or 90% 
headsail).

I am not inclined to go less than the 155% allowed locally (PHRF) but maybe I 
should--the local North guy suggested ~ 140%. This might better match the local 
wind and is less expensive since less material is used. OTOH, I don't want to 
be under canvassed on the light air days.

Further, there is the question of sail material weight to consider.

I plan for this to be my last headsail purchase and may use it some for local 
cruising in addition to club racing. BTW, it will be used on a furler either 
way.

So what would the listers do!!

Charlie Nelson
1995 C 36 XL/kcb
Water Phantom




Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

[Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List]

Or keep your old patched 155 and use the 140 for the slightly breezier days and 
forego the reef

From: Rod Stright via CnC-List 
Sent: February 9, 2021 5:30:15 AM
To: 'Stus-List'
Cc: Rod Stright
Subject: Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

Would you get a PHRF adjustment credit by moving to a 135% Roller Furling 
headsail?

Rod Stright
Halifax

From: Charlie Nelson via CnC-List 
Sent: February-09-21 12:23 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: cenel...@aol.com
Subject: Stus-List New sails, new wind

Hello all listers.

I have a hypothetical for the racers among you.

I need to replace my 3DL headsail--its mostly patches after ~ 5 years of club 
racing locally. This is about my 3rd laminate style headsail---and my last!

I am probably going with the North 3D Nordac which has replaced the former 3DL 
technology with what they call a composite sail--not laminated but still built 
over a 3D mold of the sail shape desired--if I understand this correctly. I do 
not need the super light and costly Raw or Endurance.

Anyhow, I plan to move to a new sailing area off Southport, NC near Bald Head 
Island at the mouth of the Cape Fear River--basically on the NC coast.

All my club racing to date has been in the Pamlico and Neuse Rivers, 
occasionally racing to Ocracoke across the Pamlico Sound. For these areas, a 
155% headsail is the largest you can race with locally without penalty and so 
that is what I have always used.

The North sail maker suggested because of the higher coastal winds that I may 
not need a 155% since the wind strength is higher at the coast. OTOH, a racer 
there uses a 155% headsail and says he does well with it.

I checked the historical average wind speed for Southport and New Bern and the 
coastal winds are from 20-25% higher than at New Bern.
For instance, the avg. wind speed varies from 5.5-8.1 knots in New Bern vs. 
about 7-10 knots in Southport, or about 25% higher on average.

Further, I know from experience that my masthead rig becomes seriously 
overpowered once the wind gets greater than about 12 knots true, when its time 
to reef the main(I only have 1 reef point) and if it goes above ~ 15 knots, I 
need to roll the headsail a few turns (or change down to a 135% or 90% 
headsail).

I am not inclined to go less than the 155% allowed locally (PHRF) but maybe I 
should--the local North guy suggested ~ 140%. This might better match the local 
wind and is less expensive since less material is used. OTOH, I don't want to 
be under canvassed on the light air days.

Further, there is the question of sail material weight to consider.

I plan for this to be my last headsail purchase and may use it some for local 
cruising in addition to club racing. BTW, it will be used on a furler either 
way.

So what would the listers do!!

Charlie Nelson
1995 C 36 XL/kcb
Water Phantom




Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: New sails, new wind

[Rod Stright via CnC-List]

Would you get a PHRF adjustment credit by moving to a 135% Roller Furling 
headsail?

 

Rod Stright

Halifax

 

From: Charlie Nelson via CnC-List  
Sent: February-09-21 12:23 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: cenel...@aol.com
Subject: Stus-List New sails, new wind

 

Hello all listers.  

 

I have a hypothetical for the racers among you. 

 

I need to replace my 3DL headsail--its mostly patches after ~ 5 years of club 
racing locally. This is about my 3rd laminate style headsail---and my last!

 

I am probably going with the North 3D Nordac which has replaced the former 3DL 
technology with what they call a composite sail--not laminated but still built 
over a 3D mold of the sail shape desired--if I understand this correctly. I do 
not need the super light and costly Raw or Endurance.

 

Anyhow, I plan to move to a new sailing area off Southport, NC near Bald Head 
Island at the mouth of the Cape Fear River--basically on the NC coast.

 

All my club racing to date has been in the Pamlico and Neuse Rivers, 
occasionally racing to Ocracoke across the Pamlico Sound. For these areas, a 
155% headsail is the largest you can race with locally without penalty and so 
that is what I have always used. 

 

The North sail maker suggested because of the higher coastal winds that I may 
not need a 155% since the wind strength is higher at the coast. OTOH, a racer 
there uses a 155% headsail and says he does well with it. 

 

I checked the historical average wind speed for Southport and New Bern and the 
coastal winds are from 20-25% higher than at New Bern. 

For instance, the avg. wind speed varies from 5.5-8.1 knots in New Bern vs. 
about 7-10 knots in Southport, or about 25% higher on average.

 

Further, I know from experience that my masthead rig becomes seriously 
overpowered once the wind gets greater than about 12 knots true, when its time 
to reef the main(I only have 1 reef point) and if it goes above ~ 15 knots, I 
need to roll the headsail a few turns (or change down to a 135% or 90% 
headsail).

 

I am not inclined to go less than the 155% allowed locally (PHRF) but maybe I 
should--the local North guy suggested ~ 140%. This might better match the local 
wind and is less expensive since less material is used. OTOH, I don't want to 
be under canvassed on the light air days. 

 

Further, there is the question of sail material weight to consider. 

 

I plan for this to be my last headsail purchase and may use it some for local 
cruising in addition to club racing. BTW, it will be used on a furler either 
way.

 

So what would the listers do!!

 

Charlie Nelson

1995 C 36 XL/kcb

Water Phantom

 

 

 

 

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu