Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart -
you wrote: snip There is a*lot* more to the story of Rebel Heart. You can find out all about it in the usual places. Long Story Short is the wife has issues, they never should have left Mexico, snip Sorry, but as long as I'm drinking and feel a sudden need to share, I can only say this: *YUP* They are still maintaining that they have seven years cruising experience, but what they really mean is that they bought the boat seven years ago. I am really tired of newbies claiming to be expert cruisers just because they bought a heavy full keel boat and know how to talk on the radio. Heck, a few years ago I met a blonde from Los Angeles (or was it San Diego) who claimed to have 11 years cruising experience. She found a guy who would make all her dreams come true. He dumped her. She's now a true brunette, trying to find the next bigger better deal. She still talks on the radio. The web site, which once proclaimed her experience as a 'marketing professional' now has her picture turned sideways. Guess who's paying for it. Wal ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart -
I have both an SSB and satphone on board. I've also been offshore getting smacked by the NE side of a named storm. We used the SSB for regular updates with the nearest shore based station (Bermuda Radio) and also used the SSB for sending and receiving email and weather data. It's great for that kind of stuff. The phone saw minimal use, but was very good for calling the wives when shit got really nasty. (which it did) Fortunately, the EPIRB wasn't ultimately required. If I had to choose between SSB and Satphone - I'd keep the SSB (with Pactor III) and ditch the phone - but there is a place for both if your budget allows. My $0.02 Cheers, Colin On Mon, May 12, 2014 at 9:36 AM, Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: There is a *lot* more to the story of Rebel Heart. You can find out all about it in the usual places. Long Story Short is the wife has issues, they never should have left Mexico, and having NO communications might have been the best thing for them. As for ham radio, it is very nice to have for a medical issue, but if your boat is sinking fast the SSB won't help much and I wouldn't rely on a SPOT or sat-phone to replace an EPIRB. 73 de N3HGB M/M Joe Della Barba Coquina CC 35 MK I -Original Message- From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of John Pennie via CnC-List Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2014 7:27 PM To: w...@wbryant.com; cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart - Really not a pi___ng match - honest. I just can't stress enough how valuable and helpful the ham community can be. Please, if you venture offshore, take the time to learn and pursue a license. I am not bashing the sat phone - I had one on board when cruising. It just wouldn't be my go-to. Ok, yes, I would grab it because it is quick and might work. I'd do that while the SSB was warming up. John On May 11, 2014, at 7:07 PM, Wally Bryant via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: No argument here. I don't want to get into a p___ing match with anyone. I'm too busy. Whatever you say. I have an HF receiver on board, and have listened and learned. Wal you wrote: I'm sorry, have to jump in here. With a sat phone, assuming it works, you may get some operator on the phone. With a SSB, assuming you took the time to learn it, you will probably get half the ham community on the other end. That is a group that will go above and beyond. ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart -
There is a *lot* more to the story of Rebel Heart. You can find out all about it in the usual places. Long Story Short is the wife has issues, they never should have left Mexico, and having NO communications might have been the best thing for them. As for ham radio, it is very nice to have for a medical issue, but if your boat is sinking fast the SSB won't help much and I wouldn't rely on a SPOT or sat-phone to replace an EPIRB. 73 de N3HGB M/M Joe Della Barba Coquina CC 35 MK I -Original Message- From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of John Pennie via CnC-List Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2014 7:27 PM To: w...@wbryant.com; cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart - Really not a pi___ng match - honest. I just can't stress enough how valuable and helpful the ham community can be. Please, if you venture offshore, take the time to learn and pursue a license. I am not bashing the sat phone - I had one on board when cruising. It just wouldn't be my go-to. Ok, yes, I would grab it because it is quick and might work. I'd do that while the SSB was warming up. John On May 11, 2014, at 7:07 PM, Wally Bryant via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: No argument here. I don't want to get into a p___ing match with anyone. I'm too busy. Whatever you say. I have an HF receiver on board, and have listened and learned. Wal you wrote: I'm sorry, have to jump in here. With a sat phone, assuming it works, you may get some operator on the phone. With a SSB, assuming you took the time to learn it, you will probably get half the ham community on the other end. That is a group that will go above and beyond. ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart -
Rebel Heart, the Hans Christian 36 scuttled recently, did an interview on NPR a few days ago: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/525/transcript It was interesting to hear that the Iridium Satellite phone failed with an 'Invalid SIM card' message because the distributor providing the cards made a change and invalidated all the existing SIM cards. I've had that happen to me *twice* in the last 18 months, and while they were very cool and FedExed a new SIM card internationally, it is very disconcerting. I consider that thing a very important piece of safety gear, and in fact only have it in case of emergency. I don't think FedEx will deliver to a boat off shore. Wal -- s/v Stella Blue www.wbryant.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart -
Hi Wally, I just listened to the interview on our NPR station. Just finished googling the Navy rescue video, and the ship data, and blog. My heart goes out to those guys, but it's great our Navy and Coast Guard have such capabilities. Chuck Resolute 1990 CC 34R Atlantic City, NJ - Original Message - From: CNC boat owners, cnc-list cnc-list@cnc-list.com To: CNC boat owners, cnc-list cnc-list@cnc-list.com Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2014 11:26:15 AM Subject: Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart - Rebel Heart, the Hans Christian 36 scuttled recently, did an interview on NPR a few days ago: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/525/transcript It was interesting to hear that the Iridium Satellite phone failed with an 'Invalid SIM card' message because the distributor providing the cards made a change and invalidated all the existing SIM cards. I've had that happen to me *twice* in the last 18 months, and while they were very cool and FedExed a new SIM card internationally, it is very disconcerting. I consider that thing a very important piece of safety gear, and in fact only have it in case of emergency. I don't think FedEx will deliver to a boat off shore. Wal -- s/v Stella Blue www.wbryant.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart -
And, in this case, USAF pararescue. I like his sentiment of Wow. We live in a country that can do this! Evan Wind Affair 1978 CC 26 Indianapolis, IN -Original Message- From: Chuck S via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com Sent: 5/11/2014 12:52 PM To: w...@wbryant.com w...@wbryant.com; CNC boat owners, cnc-list cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart - Hi Wally, I just listened to the interview on our NPR station. Just finished googling the Navy rescue video, and the ship data, and blog. My heart goes out to those guys, but it's great our Navy and Coast Guard have such capabilities. Chuck Resolute 1990 CC 34R Atlantic City, NJ From: CNC boat owners, cnc-list cnc-list@cnc-list.com To: CNC boat owners, cnc-list cnc-list@cnc-list.com Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2014 11:26:15 AM Subject: Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart - Rebel Heart, the Hans Christian 36 scuttled recently, did an interview on NPR a few days ago: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/525/transcript It was interesting to hear that the Iridium Satellite phone failed with an 'Invalid SIM card' message because the distributor providing the cards made a change and invalidated all the existing SIM cards. I've had that happen to me *twice* in the last 18 months, and while they were very cool and FedExed a new SIM card internationally, it is very disconcerting. I consider that thing a very important piece of safety gear, and in fact only have it in case of emergency. I don't think FedEx will deliver to a boat off shore. Wal -- s/v Stella Blue www.wbryant.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart -
I was actually wondering if anyone who has had a sat phone for more than two years would chime in. I'm going to buy one of those little yellow 'Baby on Board' signs and hang it on the radar mast. Sheesh, if I ever need rescue it won't make news or go viral. Everyone will just say 'Oh, a single hander. Those guys are nuts.' That might be true, but frankly double handing with a screaming banshee or two shouting nonsensical orders is more dangerous than single handing. Especially if they figure out how to use the radio. (remember the Westsail 32 from 'the perfect storm...') Wal you wrote: I like his sentiment of Wow. We live in a country that can do this! ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart -
I'm sorry, have to jump in here. With a sat phone, assuming it works, you may get some operator on the phone. With a SSB, assuming you took the time to learn it, you will probably get half the ham community on the other end. That is a group that will go above and beyond. John KC2-WPS On May 11, 2014, at 11:26 AM, Wally Bryant via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: Rebel Heart, the Hans Christian 36 scuttled recently, did an interview on NPR a few days ago: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/525/transcript It was interesting to hear that the Iridium Satellite phone failed with an 'Invalid SIM card' message because the distributor providing the cards made a change and invalidated all the existing SIM cards. I've had that happen to me *twice* in the last 18 months, and while they were very cool and FedExed a new SIM card internationally, it is very disconcerting. I consider that thing a very important piece of safety gear, and in fact only have it in case of emergency. I don't think FedEx will deliver to a boat off shore. Wal -- s/v Stella Blue www.wbryant.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart -
It sounds like they had SSB; the radio got damaged by seawater. Fred Street -- Minneapolis S/V Oceanis (1979 CC Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI :^( On May 11, 2014, at 5:40 PM, John Pennie via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: I'm sorry, have to jump in here. With a sat phone, assuming it works, you may get some operator on the phone. With a SSB, assuming you took the time to learn it, you will probably get half the ham community on the other end. That is a group that will go above and beyond. John KC2-WPS On May 11, 2014, at 11:26 AM, Wally Bryant via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: Rebel Heart, the Hans Christian 36 scuttled recently, did an interview on NPR a few days ago: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/525/transcript It was interesting to hear that the Iridium Satellite phone failed with an 'Invalid SIM card' message because the distributor providing the cards made a change and invalidated all the existing SIM cards. I've had that happen to me *twice* in the last 18 months, and while they were very cool and FedExed a new SIM card internationally, it is very disconcerting. I consider that thing a very important piece of safety gear, and in fact only have it in case of emergency. I don't think FedEx will deliver to a boat off shore. Wal -- s/v Stella Blue www.wbryant.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart -
My comment was to Wally and anyone that would count on a Satphone in an emergency. As to the story, it is not my place to second guess decisions that were made in an emergency situation. John On May 11, 2014, at 6:42 PM, Frederick G Street f...@postaudio.net wrote: It sounds like they had SSB; the radio got damaged by seawater. Fred Street -- Minneapolis S/V Oceanis (1979 CC Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI :^( On May 11, 2014, at 5:40 PM, John Pennie via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: I'm sorry, have to jump in here. With a sat phone, assuming it works, you may get some operator on the phone. With a SSB, assuming you took the time to learn it, you will probably get half the ham community on the other end. That is a group that will go above and beyond. John KC2-WPS On May 11, 2014, at 11:26 AM, Wally Bryant via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: Rebel Heart, the Hans Christian 36 scuttled recently, did an interview on NPR a few days ago: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/525/transcript It was interesting to hear that the Iridium Satellite phone failed with an 'Invalid SIM card' message because the distributor providing the cards made a change and invalidated all the existing SIM cards. I've had that happen to me *twice* in the last 18 months, and while they were very cool and FedExed a new SIM card internationally, it is very disconcerting. I consider that thing a very important piece of safety gear, and in fact only have it in case of emergency. I don't think FedEx will deliver to a boat off shore. Wal -- s/v Stella Blue www.wbryant.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart -
No argument here. I don't want to get into a p___ing match with anyone. I'm too busy. Whatever you say. I have an HF receiver on board, and have listened and learned. Wal you wrote: I'm sorry, have to jump in here. With a sat phone, assuming it works, you may get some operator on the phone. With a SSB, assuming you took the time to learn it, you will probably get half the ham community on the other end. That is a group that will go above and beyond. ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart -
Really not a pi___ng match - honest. I just can’t stress enough how valuable and helpful the ham community can be. Please, if you venture offshore, take the time to learn and pursue a license. I am not bashing the sat phone - I had one on board when cruising. It just wouldn’t be my go-to. Ok, yes, I would grab it because it is quick and might work. I’d do that while the SSB was warming up. John On May 11, 2014, at 7:07 PM, Wally Bryant via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: No argument here. I don't want to get into a p___ing match with anyone. I'm too busy. Whatever you say. I have an HF receiver on board, and have listened and learned. Wal you wrote: I'm sorry, have to jump in here. With a sat phone, assuming it works, you may get some operator on the phone. With a SSB, assuming you took the time to learn it, you will probably get half the ham community on the other end. That is a group that will go above and beyond. ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart - an ignorant woman blogs...
Yea Russ, well I got someone very close to me whose life has been changed forever by treatment from one of those guys.so I can't accept the time out.3 broken vertebrae from an over aggressive chiropractor.big pain everyday, no fix for his injuries, ugly pain meds just to survive, under 30 years old and once very athletic.I would never trust a chiropractor to fix anything but I do know many people who keep going back for more.that's the one certainty about treatment from a chiropractor, you will have to return for more.you may feel more like me about that if it were your son whose life was ruined.mine made his living as a high climber and now he is barely able to walk after just 1 treatment from a chiropractor to try to relax some back muscle pain so now he suffers constant high levels of pain every hour of everyday for the rest of his life for which all his doctors can do is prescribe higher and higher doses of addictive meds, like hydromorph.and he gets very little money to live on and these lawsuits can take forever to get settled.so Russ you go to the chiropractor 6 times a year for the rest of your life if you feel it does you good but please understand where I am coming from too.you have been lucky with your treatments but many like my son have not, bone chips in his spine that can not as yet be removed surgically, 5th, 6th and 7th thoracic vertebrae compression fractures.I don't feel one bit bad about the way I feel about that practice.and there is x-ray and MRI evidence to support how his back got broken Not sailing related maybe but when any member on this list leaves personal credentials below their signature then they open themselves to more than comments about sailing, this guy, Mark Bodnar always leaves his personal credentials and I must admit that his credentials do not impress me and it may be inappropriate for him to advertise them on this list of friends in sailing. _ From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Russ Melody Sent: April 10, 2014 1:36 AM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart - an ignorant woman blogs... Time out Dwight. Your doctor comment is inappropriate. On this list we are amongst friends regardless of our opinion. Please be civil. In the spirit of full disclosure, I see a Doctor of Chiropractic Medicine about six times a year. I am very happy with the results after each visit. Furthermore, I see a real doctor very seldom... maybe three times in the past ten years. The results speak for themselves. On the subject of overbearing rules, I belive we are profoundly heading down the road where all activities will be regulated and our favourite activities will be deemed dangerous. I did sail offshore with a 6 year old boy and his mother. She had sailed once before in the kindergarten known as the Gulf Islands and the lad had never been on a sailboat. They joined me in Jamaica and got off at Hawaii via French Polynesia. The boat was a 32' Southern Cross named Dove. PO builder sailed around the world with the wife two daughters and their son was born in South Africa after repairs to a dismasting. Steven came across the Atlantic at the age of one. Free trade and sailor's rights, Russ Sweet 35 mk-1 At 05:18 PM 09/04/2014, you wrote: Are you really a doctor??? This does not sound like a real doctor talking.governments try to make laws that society wants.oh I see you are in chiropractic medicine, let me fix you now and please return every 2 weeks for the rest of your life for another fix _ From: CnC-List [ mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Dr. Mark Bodnar Sent: April 9, 2014 2:23 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart - an ignorant woman blogs... I agree wholeheartedly. Society, in our attempt to make idiot proof, is making our lives so full of rules and regulations that we hardly know what to do unless we are told. I read a short article in Discover magazine a while back - it talked about a small town in northern Europe (Sweden?) that decided to install their first traffic light. A year later they had experienced a significant increase in the number of accidents at the intersection. In the resulting study they learned that with a light telling them what to do, people didn't put any thought into the process. If the light was green they just drove through the intersection -- if someone coming the other way accidentally entered the intersection then there was an accident. Take away the light and people would approach the intersection looking for any possible trouble - eyes open and brain engaged. They took out the traffic light and the number of accidents reverted back to normal levels. I feel we suffer the same problem in so many areas. I counted 13 street signs in the 500m leading up to my kids school a few months back --- I'm supposed to read all those and obey -- but at the same time
Stus-List Rebel Heart - an ignorant woman blogs...
If you want to get infuriated, read this woman's blog about Rebel Heart. Apparently, she's some kind of self-described parenting expert who is now weighing in on sailing and seamanship issues as well. I'm not sure I'd have gone to sea with my kids at that age, but if I didn't, it certainly wasn't for the reasons that this self described expert espouses. http://www.modernmom.com/1443ce50-bf5d-11e3-9fb2-bc764e0546c6.html Cheers, Colin ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart - an ignorant woman blogs...
Nothing wrong with sailing with kids in general. I remember a boat pulling into Bermuda with an infant and a puppy! Obviously YMMV on this. Having no crew but the 2 parents with only one really able to sail is a bit undermanned for ocean sailing IMHO. I still remember from birth to age 3 my son was a full time job for my wife and I was essentially sailing single-handed while she kept him safe and happy. Joe Della Barba Coquina From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Colin Kilgour Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 9:25 AM To: CC List Subject: Stus-List Rebel Heart - an ignorant woman blogs... If you want to get infuriated, read this woman's blog about Rebel Heart. Apparently, she's some kind of self-described parenting expert who is now weighing in on sailing and seamanship issues as well. I'm not sure I'd have gone to sea with my kids at that age, but if I didn't, it certainly wasn't for the reasons that this self described expert espouses. http://www.modernmom.com/1443ce50-bf5d-11e3-9fb2-bc764e0546c6.html Cheers, Colin ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart - an ignorant woman blogs...
Yeah, my facebook feed is on fire with this stuff right now. Depressing. But, at the same time, if the masses want to think that sailing is for fools, let them, more sailboats and empty anchorages for me (when I get there). Going to go look at a 40 CB and a Landfall this weekend :) I feel for the Rebel Heart family, they lost their home and their dream. Don't even get me started on the terrible parenting that so many non-sailors are guilty of, some really horrifying stories in Toronto lately involving children, terrifying stuff. The world is full of these judgemental people because they have to justify their safe, boring and miserable existence, which it must be for them to focus so much on other people's lives. Steve Suhana, CC 32 Toronto On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 9:37 AM, Della Barba, Joe joe.della.ba...@ssa.govwrote: Nothing wrong with sailing with kids in general. I remember a boat pulling into Bermuda with an infant and a puppy! Obviously YMMV on this. Having no crew but the 2 parents with only one really able to sail is a bit undermanned for ocean sailing IMHO. I still remember from birth to age 3 my son was a full time job for my wife and I was essentially sailing single-handed while she kept him safe and happy. *Joe Della Barba* Coquina *From:* CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] *On Behalf Of *Colin Kilgour *Sent:* Wednesday, April 09, 2014 9:25 AM *To:* CC List *Subject:* Stus-List Rebel Heart - an ignorant woman blogs... If you want to get infuriated, read this woman's blog about Rebel Heart. Apparently, she's some kind of self-described parenting expert who is now weighing in on sailing and seamanship issues as well. I'm not sure I'd have gone to sea with my kids at that age, but if I didn't, it certainly wasn't for the reasons that this self described expert espouses. http://www.modernmom.com/1443ce50-bf5d-11e3-9fb2-bc764e0546c6.html Cheers, Colin ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart - an ignorant woman blogs...
Meanwhile, we can't get our (big) kids to come with us on the boat unless it's a sunny afternoon, we aren't going far and there's plenty of snacks and soda. Lisa Sent from my iPhone On Apr 9, 2014, at 9:53 AM, Stevan Plavsa stevanpla...@gmail.com wrote: Yeah, my facebook feed is on fire with this stuff right now. Depressing. But, at the same time, if the masses want to think that sailing is for fools, let them, more sailboats and empty anchorages for me (when I get there). Going to go look at a 40 CB and a Landfall this weekend :) I feel for the Rebel Heart family, they lost their home and their dream. Don't even get me started on the terrible parenting that so many non-sailors are guilty of, some really horrifying stories in Toronto lately involving children, terrifying stuff. The world is full of these judgemental people because they have to justify their safe, boring and miserable existence, which it must be for them to focus so much on other people's lives. Steve Suhana, CC 32 Toronto On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 9:37 AM, Della Barba, Joe joe.della.ba...@ssa.gov wrote: Nothing wrong with sailing with kids in general. I remember a boat pulling into Bermuda with an infant and a puppy! Obviously YMMV on this. Having no crew but the 2 parents with only one really able to sail is a bit undermanned for ocean sailing IMHO. I still remember from birth to age 3 my son was a full time job for my wife and I was essentially sailing single-handed while she kept him safe and happy. Joe Della Barba Coquina From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Colin Kilgour Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 9:25 AM To: CC List Subject: Stus-List Rebel Heart - an ignorant woman blogs... If you want to get infuriated, read this woman's blog about Rebel Heart. Apparently, she's some kind of self-described parenting expert who is now weighing in on sailing and seamanship issues as well. I'm not sure I'd have gone to sea with my kids at that age, but if I didn't, it certainly wasn't for the reasons that this self described expert espouses. http://www.modernmom.com/1443ce50-bf5d-11e3-9fb2-bc764e0546c6.html Cheers, Colin ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart - an ignorant woman blogs...
My concern is that some governing agency would/could start telling me what I can or can't do, with or without my kids because of the hazard. Kinda smells like a helmet or seatbelt law, or reckless endangerment. Who gets to decide? Josh Muckley On Apr 9, 2014 9:25 AM, Colin Kilgour charliekilo...@gmail.com wrote: If you want to get infuriated, read this woman's blog about Rebel Heart. Apparently, she's some kind of self-described parenting expert who is now weighing in on sailing and seamanship issues as well. I'm not sure I'd have gone to sea with my kids at that age, but if I didn't, it certainly wasn't for the reasons that this self described expert espouses. http://www.modernmom.com/1443ce50-bf5d-11e3-9fb2-bc764e0546c6.html Cheers, Colin ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart - an ignorant woman blogs...
Reading the article horrified me; but then I was gratified reading the responses. Common sense still lives… :^) Comment after comment compared her remarks about taking kids out on a boat with throwing them in a vehicle and driving somewhere, and how much more statistically dangerous that is. I AM amazed at how ignorant she sounds in the blog, in comparison to most of the commenters. Fred Street -- Minneapolis S/V Oceanis (1979 CC Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI :^( On Apr 9, 2014, at 8:24 AM, Colin Kilgour charliekilo...@gmail.com wrote: If you want to get infuriated, read this woman's blog about Rebel Heart. Apparently, she's some kind of self-described parenting expert who is now weighing in on sailing and seamanship issues as well. I'm not sure I'd have gone to sea with my kids at that age, but if I didn't, it certainly wasn't for the reasons that this self described expert espouses. http://www.modernmom.com/1443ce50-bf5d-11e3-9fb2-bc764e0546c6.html Cheers, Colin ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart - an ignorant woman blogs...
This woman is of the ilk that made All is Lost a success at the box office. There are an awful lot of people who don't have the faintest idea of what sailing and cruising are about. Not that it stops them from having opinions! personally, I can't think of a better way to bring up your kids than to do it while you're exploring the world on a small boat (and they're ALL small boats offshore). Will your kids fit into the nice box that society has ready for them when they grow up? Doubtful. But they are far more likely to be well-adjusted and self reliant. Andy CC 40 Peregrine On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 10:04 AM, Lisa Lias lisal...@gmail.com wrote: Meanwhile, we can't get our (big) kids to come with us on the boat unless it's a sunny afternoon, we aren't going far and there's plenty of snacks and soda. Lisa Sent from my iPhone On Apr 9, 2014, at 9:53 AM, Stevan Plavsa stevanpla...@gmail.com wrote: Yeah, my facebook feed is on fire with this stuff right now. Depressing. But, at the same time, if the masses want to think that sailing is for fools, let them, more sailboats and empty anchorages for me (when I get there). Going to go look at a 40 CB and a Landfall this weekend :) I feel for the Rebel Heart family, they lost their home and their dream. Don't even get me started on the terrible parenting that so many non-sailors are guilty of, some really horrifying stories in Toronto lately involving children, terrifying stuff. The world is full of these judgemental people because they have to justify their safe, boring and miserable existence, which it must be for them to focus so much on other people's lives. Steve Suhana, CC 32 Toronto On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 9:37 AM, Della Barba, Joe joe.della.ba...@ssa.govwrote: Nothing wrong with sailing with kids in general. I remember a boat pulling into Bermuda with an infant and a puppy! Obviously YMMV on this. Having no crew but the 2 parents with only one really able to sail is a bit undermanned for ocean sailing IMHO. I still remember from birth to age 3 my son was a full time job for my wife and I was essentially sailing single-handed while she kept him safe and happy. *Joe Della Barba* Coquina *From:* CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] *On Behalf Of *Colin Kilgour *Sent:* Wednesday, April 09, 2014 9:25 AM *To:* CC List *Subject:* Stus-List Rebel Heart - an ignorant woman blogs... If you want to get infuriated, read this woman's blog about Rebel Heart. Apparently, she's some kind of self-described parenting expert who is now weighing in on sailing and seamanship issues as well. I'm not sure I'd have gone to sea with my kids at that age, but if I didn't, it certainly wasn't for the reasons that this self described expert espouses. http://www.modernmom.com/1443ce50-bf5d-11e3-9fb2-bc764e0546c6.html Cheers, Colin ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com -- Andrew Burton 61 W Narragansett Ave Newport, RI USA 02840 http://sites.google.com/site/andrewburtonyachtservices/ phone +401 965 5260 ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart - an ignorant woman blogs...
I still remember watching the east coast drop out of view astern with nothing but Atlantic Ocean ahead at age 12. It was a BIG thrill at that age ☺ At first I was “too young” to stand a watch alone, but when it started storming and pouring down rain I suddenly got promoted and did such a good job no one wanted to come on deck even after my watch was over LOL. Joe Della Barba Coquina From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Burton Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 10:26 AM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart - an ignorant woman blogs... This woman is of the ilk that made All is Lost a success at the box office. There are an awful lot of people who don't have the faintest idea of what sailing and cruising are about. Not that it stops them from having opinions! personally, I can't think of a better way to bring up your kids than to do it while you're exploring the world on a small boat (and they're ALL small boats offshore). Will your kids fit into the nice box that society has ready for them when they grow up? Doubtful. But they are far more likely to be well-adjusted and self reliant. Andy CC 40 Peregrine On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 10:04 AM, Lisa Lias lisal...@gmail.commailto:lisal...@gmail.com wrote: Meanwhile, we can't get our (big) kids to come with us on the boat unless it's a sunny afternoon, we aren't going far and there's plenty of snacks and soda. #128563; Lisa Sent from my iPhone On Apr 9, 2014, at 9:53 AM, Stevan Plavsa stevanpla...@gmail.commailto:stevanpla...@gmail.com wrote: Yeah, my facebook feed is on fire with this stuff right now. Depressing. But, at the same time, if the masses want to think that sailing is for fools, let them, more sailboats and empty anchorages for me (when I get there). Going to go look at a 40 CB and a Landfall this weekend :) I feel for the Rebel Heart family, they lost their home and their dream. Don't even get me started on the terrible parenting that so many non-sailors are guilty of, some really horrifying stories in Toronto lately involving children, terrifying stuff. The world is full of these judgemental people because they have to justify their safe, boring and miserable existence, which it must be for them to focus so much on other people's lives. Steve Suhana, CC 32 Toronto On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 9:37 AM, Della Barba, Joe joe.della.ba...@ssa.govmailto:joe.della.ba...@ssa.gov wrote: Nothing wrong with sailing with kids in general. I remember a boat pulling into Bermuda with an infant and a puppy! Obviously YMMV on this. Having no crew but the 2 parents with only one really able to sail is a bit undermanned for ocean sailing IMHO. I still remember from birth to age 3 my son was a full time job for my wife and I was essentially sailing single-handed while she kept him safe and happy. Joe Della Barba Coquina From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.commailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Colin Kilgour Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 9:25 AM To: CC List Subject: Stus-List Rebel Heart - an ignorant woman blogs... If you want to get infuriated, read this woman's blog about Rebel Heart. Apparently, she's some kind of self-described parenting expert who is now weighing in on sailing and seamanship issues as well. I'm not sure I'd have gone to sea with my kids at that age, but if I didn't, it certainly wasn't for the reasons that this self described expert espouses. http://www.modernmom.com/1443ce50-bf5d-11e3-9fb2-bc764e0546c6.html Cheers, Colin ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.commailto:CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.commailto:CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.commailto:CnC-List@cnc-list.com -- Andrew Burton 61 W Narragansett Ave Newport, RI USA 02840 http://sites.google.com/site/andrewburtonyachtservices/ phone +401 965 5260 ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart - an ignorant woman blogs...
I didn’t start sailing young enough to have had that experience; but you can be darn sure my kids did! Fred Street -- Minneapolis S/V Oceanis (1979 CC Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI :^( On Apr 9, 2014, at 9:42 AM, Della Barba, Joe joe.della.ba...@ssa.gov wrote: I still remember watching the east coast drop out of view astern with nothing but Atlantic Ocean ahead at age 12. It was a BIG thrill at that age J ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart - an ignorant woman blogs...
Good for you! They'll be telling their kids about it. I can embarrass my son with this photo. http://www.dellabarba.com/sailing/images/noah093x.JPG Joe Della Barba Coquina From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Frederick G Street Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 10:44 AM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart - an ignorant woman blogs... I didn't start sailing young enough to have had that experience; but you can be darn sure my kids did! Fred Street -- Minneapolis S/V Oceanis (1979 CC Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI :^( On Apr 9, 2014, at 9:42 AM, Della Barba, Joe joe.della.ba...@ssa.govmailto:joe.della.ba...@ssa.gov wrote: I still remember watching the east coast drop out of view astern with nothing but Atlantic Ocean ahead at age 12. It was a BIG thrill at that age :) ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart - an ignorant woman blogs...
You guys that grew up sailing are lucky, don't forget it. I started sailing at 30 and closing the gap on things that you simply learn by osmosis growing up around sailors is hard. (as is evident by my high post count to this list) Steve Suhana, CC 32 Toronto On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 10:50 AM, Della Barba, Joe joe.della.ba...@ssa.govwrote: Good for you! They'll be telling their kids about it. I can embarrass my son with this photo. http://www.dellabarba.com/sailing/images/noah093x.JPG *Joe Della Barba* Coquina *From:* CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] *On Behalf Of *Frederick G Street *Sent:* Wednesday, April 09, 2014 10:44 AM *To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com *Subject:* Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart - an ignorant woman blogs... I didn't start sailing young enough to have had that experience; but you can be darn sure my kids did! Fred Street -- Minneapolis S/V *Oceanis* (1979 CC Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI :^( On Apr 9, 2014, at 9:42 AM, Della Barba, Joe joe.della.ba...@ssa.gov wrote: I still remember watching the east coast drop out of view astern with nothing but Atlantic Ocean ahead at age 12. It was a BIG thrill at that age J ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart - an ignorant woman blogs...
Steve — I started at 37, and have been playing catch-up ever since… :^) Fred Street -- Minneapolis S/V Oceanis (1979 CC Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI :^( On Apr 9, 2014, at 10:06 AM, Stevan Plavsa stevanpla...@gmail.com wrote: You guys that grew up sailing are lucky, don't forget it. I started sailing at 30 and closing the gap on things that you simply learn by osmosis growing up around sailors is hard. (as is evident by my high post count to this list) Steve Suhana, CC 32 Toronto ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart - an ignorant woman blogs...
I am that way with horses. What - why can't I get on this side? I never touched a horse until I was in my 30s. Joe Della Barba Coquina From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Frederick G Street Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 12:00 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart - an ignorant woman blogs... Steve - I started at 37, and have been playing catch-up ever since... :^) Fred Street -- Minneapolis S/V Oceanis (1979 CC Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI :^( On Apr 9, 2014, at 10:06 AM, Stevan Plavsa stevanpla...@gmail.commailto:stevanpla...@gmail.com wrote: You guys that grew up sailing are lucky, don't forget it. I started sailing at 30 and closing the gap on things that you simply learn by osmosis growing up around sailors is hard. (as is evident by my high post count to this list) Steve Suhana, CC 32 Toronto ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart - an ignorant woman blogs...
I dunno folks, you are all roundly condemning her but aside from her crappy attitude, smart ass exaggerations and lack of knowledge/experience of sailing she does still have one good point: taking those small kids on such a long journey constituted exposing them to many risks for the parents own gratification not the kids. The point she seems to be missing is that all kinds of people do similar things and have no problems - it never makes the news, it flys under the radar. Average people (not in the sailing community) never hear about it. They're well planned trips (maybe some unplanned ones too, who were just lucky). So when something does happen and the typically sensationalist media jump on it, all the raving naysayers jump on it too. She herself has been influenced by media sensationalism. Good planning, risk analysis and contingency planning are essential to a successful long distance sailing trip. Yes unforeseen stuff can happen to the boat, but I'm still talking about those children. If these people had done proper trip planning they would have assessed the risks and decided against the trip. Steve Hood S/V Diamond Girl CC 34 Lions Head ON -- Message: 3 Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2014 09:24:54 -0400 From: Colin Kilgour charliekilo...@gmail.com To: CC List CnC-List@cnc-list.com Subject: Stus-List Rebel Heart - an ignorant woman blogs... Message-ID: CAKR-nkmyfm0xJ=caLkYw5P=cfwt7rxd39zpg0gahouf9xl6...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 If you want to get infuriated, read this woman's blog about Rebel Heart. Apparently, she's some kind of self-described parenting expert who is now weighing in on sailing and seamanship issues as well. I'm not sure I'd have gone to sea with my kids at that age, but if I didn't, it certainly wasn't for the reasons that this self described expert espouses. http://www.modernmom.com/1443ce50-bf5d-11e3-9fb2-bc764e0546c6.html Cheers, Colin -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cnc-list.com/pipermail/cnc-list_cnc-list.com/attachments/20140409/c7 5194f5/attachment-0001.html -- ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart - an ignorant woman blogs...
This discussion needs some balance. If you do not recognize the inherent dangers of trans-oceanic cruising in a small (and in this case also old) boat then you are lacking in seamanship and navigation skills. To deny these risks is merely and expression of lack of knowledge and understanding of good seamanship. To expose a young child to these risks in my view demonstrates questionable judgment and an unreasonable risk to the life and safety of the child. The possibility of injury or illness without resort to medical facilities is in itself questionable. Two people as a crew under adverse sea conditions is limited at best and adding the need to watch and protect the childred during a storm makes it much worse. What if the child fell and suffered a serious injury? I have been offshore in storms and it requires total attention to the boat and crew safety. Let's a least be fair. This is not a one sided discussion. At a very minimum a sailor must recognize these risks and be willing to subject their young children to them without the consent of the children.Comparing to a car is not a good one. In NY young children must be strapped into an approved child seat in the back of the car. Doors must have child safety locks. Boats offshore are unregulated. I was a product safety attorney for many years and I have seen the cost of not recognizing and taking proper precautions when engaging in hazardous activities. Jerome Tauber, CC 27 MKV -Original Message- From: Stevan Plavsa stevanpla...@gmail.com To: cnc-list cnc-list@cnc-list.com Sent: Wed, Apr 9, 2014 11:07 am Subject: Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart - an ignorant woman blogs... You guys that grew up sailing are lucky, don't forget it. I started sailing at 30 and closing the gap on things that you simply learn by osmosis growing up around sailors is hard. (as is evident by my high post count to this list) Steve Suhana, CC 32 Toronto On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 10:50 AM, Della Barba, Joe joe.della.ba...@ssa.gov wrote: Good for you! They’ll be telling their kids about it. I can embarrass my son with this photo. http://www.dellabarba.com/sailing/images/noah093x.JPG Joe Della Barba Coquina From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Frederick G Street Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 10:44 AM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart - an ignorant woman blogs... I didn’t start sailing young enough to have had that experience; but you can be darn sure my kids did! Fred Street -- Minneapolis S/V Oceanis (1979 CC Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI :^( On Apr 9, 2014, at 9:42 AM, Della Barba, Joe joe.della.ba...@ssa.gov wrote: I still remember watching the east coast drop out of view astern with nothing but Atlantic Ocean ahead at age 12. It was a BIG thrill at that age J ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart - an ignorant woman blogs...
Was I old enough at age 12 to give proper consent to going offshore? Joe Della Barba Coquina From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Jerome Tauber Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 12:33 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart - an ignorant woman blogs... This discussion needs some balance. If you do not recognize the inherent dangers of trans-oceanic cruising in a small (and in this case also old) boat then you are lacking in seamanship and navigation skills. To deny these risks is merely and expression of lack of knowledge and understanding of good seamanship. To expose a young child to these risks in my view demonstrates questionable judgment and an unreasonable risk to the life and safety of the child. The possibility of injury or illness without resort to medical facilities is in itself questionable. Two people as a crew under adverse sea conditions is limited at best and adding the need to watch and protect the childred during a storm makes it much worse. What if the child fell and suffered a serious injury? I have been offshore in storms and it requires total attention to the boat and crew safety. Let's a least be fair. This is not a one sided discussion. At a very minimum a sailor must recognize these risks and be willing to subject their young children to them without the consent of the children.Comparing to a car is not a good one. In NY young children must be strapped into an approved child seat in the back of the car. Doors must have child safety locks. Boats offshore are unregulated. I was a product safety attorney for many years and I have seen the cost of not recognizing and taking proper precautions when engaging in hazardous activities. Jerome Tauber, CC 27 MKV -Original Message- From: Stevan Plavsa stevanpla...@gmail.commailto:stevanpla...@gmail.com To: cnc-list cnc-list@cnc-list.commailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com Sent: Wed, Apr 9, 2014 11:07 am Subject: Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart - an ignorant woman blogs... You guys that grew up sailing are lucky, don't forget it. I started sailing at 30 and closing the gap on things that you simply learn by osmosis growing up around sailors is hard. (as is evident by my high post count to this list) Steve Suhana, CC 32 Toronto On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 10:50 AM, Della Barba, Joe joe.della.ba...@ssa.govmailto:joe.della.ba...@ssa.gov wrote: Good for you! They’ll be telling their kids about it. I can embarrass my son with this photo. http://www.dellabarba.com/sailing/images/noah093x.JPG Joe Della Barba Coquina From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.commailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Frederick G Street Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 10:44 AM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.commailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart - an ignorant woman blogs... I didn’t start sailing young enough to have had that experience; but you can be darn sure my kids did! Fred Street -- Minneapolis S/V Oceanis (1979 CC Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI :^( On Apr 9, 2014, at 9:42 AM, Della Barba, Joe joe.della.ba...@ssa.govmailto:joe.della.ba...@ssa.gov wrote: I still remember watching the east coast drop out of view astern with nothing but Atlantic Ocean ahead at age 12. It was a BIG thrill at that age ☺ ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.commailto:CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.commailto:CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Stus-List Rebel Heart - an ignorant woman blogs...
I followed Charlotte's blog for some time and was wondering why it stopped all of a sudden. I could tell that their trip was not going to last long but I thought they would return to Mexico after a few days at sea. However, risk is one of the things that attracts us to sailing. Bob Boyer S/V Rainy Days (1983 CC Landfall 38 - Hull #230) Annapolis, Maryland email: dainyr...@icloud.com blog: dainyrays.blogspot.com There's nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as messing about in boats.” -Kenneth Grahame ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart - an ignorant woman blogs...
storms and it requires total attention to the boat and
crew safety. Let's a least be fair. This is not a one
sided discussion. At a very minimum a sailor must
recognize these risks and be willing to subject their
young children to them without the consent of the
children. Comparing to a car is not a good one. In
NY young children must be strapped into an approved
child seat in the back of the car. Doors must have
child safety locks. Boats offshore are unregulated. I
was a product safety attorney for many years and I have
seen the cost of not recognizing and taking proper
precautions when engaging in hazardous activities.
Jerome Tauber, CC 27 MKV
-Original
Message-
From: Stevan Plavsa stevanpla...@gmail.com
To: cnc-list cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Sent: Wed, Apr 9, 2014 11:07 am
Subject: Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart - an ignorant
woman blogs...
You guys that grew up sailing are
lucky, don't forget it. I started sailing at 30
and closing the gap on things that you simply
learn by osmosis growing up around sailors is
hard. (as is evident by my high post count to
this list)
Steve
Suhana, CC 32
Toronto
On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at
10:50 AM, Della Barba, Joe joe.della.ba...@ssa.gov
wrote:
Good for
you! Theyll be telling their kids
about it.
I can
embarrass my son with this photo.
http://www.dellabarba.com/sailing/images/noah093x.JPG
Joe
Della Barba
Coquina
From:
CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com]
On Behalf Of Frederick G
Street
Sent: Wednesday, April
09, 2014 10:44 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List
Rebel Heart - an ignorant woman
blogs...
I didnt start
sailing young enough to have had that
experience; but you can be darn sure
my kids did!
Fred Street --
Minneapolis
S/VOceanis(1979
CC Landfall 38) -- on
the hard in Bayfield,
WI:^(
On Apr 9,
2014, at 9:42 AM, Della Barba,
Joe joe.della.ba...@ssa.gov
Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart - an ignorant woman blogs...
I am not sure if this is the same town, but I know that in Delft (NL) they removed all traffic signals (lights, zebra crossings, lines on the road, even curbs) at least in some part of the town and saw a major traffic accidents drop. If you are interested , look up Hans Monderman (e.g. here: http://www.pps.org/reference/hans-monderman/). I have been off-shore. And if I would hesitate to take a one-year old on a trip like that it would not be because of the dangers, but because of the inconveniences of life with little babies on board. But if I decided to live on-board for a year, I would certainly take my kid(s). Of course, all the comments about good seamanship still apply. Marek From: Dr. Mark Bodnar Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 1:22 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart - an ignorant woman blogs... I agree wholeheartedly. Society, in our attempt to make idiot proof, is making our lives so full of rules and regulations that we hardly know what to do unless we are told. I read a short article in Discover magazine a while back - it talked about a small town in northern Europe (Sweden?) that decided to install their first traffic light. A year later they had experienced a significant increase in the number of accidents at the intersection. In the resulting study they learned that with a light telling them what to do, people didn't put any thought into the process. If the light was green they just drove through the intersection -- if someone coming the other way accidentally entered the intersection then there was an accident. Take away the light and people would approach the intersection looking for any possible trouble - eyes open and brain engaged. They took out the traffic light and the number of accidents reverted back to normal levels. I feel we suffer the same problem in so many areas. I counted 13 street signs in the 500m leading up to my kids school a few months back --- I'm supposed to read all those and obey -- but at the same time I really should be watching the road looking for kids possibly crossing On some levels driver distraction has become the biggest cause of accidents because we have made roads so smooth and consistent that people don't need to pay much attention - until something unexpected happens. Yes there are risks taking kids on that type of trip. I've never been offshore so I won't try to comment on the relative risks - but I do think that taking kids on such a trip is reasonably appropriate given some thought has gone into the planning etc. To quote a comedian - You can't fix stupid --- unfortunately our governments are trying to write laws for just that purpose. Laws that end up entangling people who are making reasonable decisions. Mark - Dr. Mark Bodnar B.Sc., D.C., FCCOPR(C) Bedford Chiropractic - There is no cure for birth and death save to enjoy the interval. - George SantayanaOn 09/04/2014 1:50 PM, Stevan Plavsa wrote: I think this starts to get into a wider discussion. People like to talk about how survival of the fittest and evolution created all that we know, including us, and they will defend the teaching of evolution in the school system etc. Well, the warning labels, idiot proofing and regulation have essentially defeated evolution. So the laws of evolution no longer apply, is that what we want? Stupid people have lots of kids, what's that doing the gene pool? We live in an aquarium. People around here like to talk about how driving isn't a right, it's a privilege. Well, judging by how terrible the drivers are around here I'de say it's a right (not that I agree with that). We've dumbed everything down to the point where people can't take responsibility for their own actions anymore. To me, it's their family, their decision. Personally though I think these people are smarter (evolutionarily better) than most people I encounter on a daily basis. Steve Suhana, CC 32 Toronto On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 12:32 PM, Jerome Tauber jrtau...@aol.com wrote: This discussion needs some balance. If you do not recognize the inherent dangers of trans-oceanic cruising in a small (and in this case also old) boat then you are lacking in seamanship and navigation skills. To deny these risks is merely and expression of lack of knowledge and understanding of good seamanship. To expose a young child to these risks in my view demonstrates questionable judgment and an unreasonable risk to the life and safety of the child. The possibility of injury or illness without resort to medical facilities is in itself questionable. Two people as a crew under adverse sea conditions is limited at best and adding the need to watch and protect the childred during a storm makes it much worse. What if the child fell and suffered a serious injury? I have been offshore in storms and it requires total attention to the boat
Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart - an ignorant woman blogs...
As an old newspaper guy and web producer, I’ll say this clearly is a case of a blogger knowing how to stir the pot to get a great deal of clicks and attention ... The fact is that there are many families out there cruising with small children and nothing bad happens, just as there are families out there traveling in cars and campers. You could make a good statistical argument that it’s more dangerous to drive your kids in a car than sail. Should families not go on driving trips because someone went in an old car, broke down and ended up in danger? Interestingly, no one made a fuss in the pre-Internet era when the Martin family did a circumnavigation on a CAL 25 – with three children being born along the way, including one when they were AT SEA. http://www.cal25.com/page11/page42/WorldCruiser.html Jack Brennan Former CC 25 Shanachie, 1974 Bristol 30 Tierra Verde, Fl. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Stus-List Rebel Heart - an ignorant woman blogs...
I can prove I was a bad parent too: kimcbrown.com/MartaGrinds.html You really aren't supposed to let them suck their pacifiers- my dentist said so.. Clearly Rebel Heart was overly ambitious given the budget and green but it does appear as if they weren't totally clueless. They seem to have had an epirb and the kids had pfds. It is not a choice I would have made but lots of folks do lots of things differently than I do. Are you a bad parent just because you live in an active earthquake zone like LA? I mean don't folks go to the movies to learn about such dangers? And won't our tax dollars be used when the big one hits? Actually the blogger probably accomplished her goal- It is not to further discourse but to drive traffic to her blog. And that is the sad lesson to be learned here. Kim Brown Trust Me!!! 35-3 ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart - an ignorant woman blogs...
Good point about Dave and Jaja. Reading their stories in the 90’s was a huge inspiration to us when we were making our plans to take off in 2009. I still have one of their Cruising World cover stories as bathroom reading in our basement (the one where he’s standing on the spreaders in a survival suit scanning the horizon with binoculars) The only issue I take with Dave and Jaja is not from a parenting perspective, but when they decided to freeze themselves into the arctic ice for a full winter. Personally, I think boats do a lot better when the water’s in liquid form and the ice is in your drink. Cheers, Colin Sent from Windows Mail From: Jack Brennan Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 3:13 PM To: CC List As an old newspaper guy and web producer, I’ll say this clearly is a case of a blogger knowing how to stir the pot to get a great deal of clicks and attention ... The fact is that there are many families out there cruising with small children and nothing bad happens, just as there are families out there traveling in cars and campers. You could make a good statistical argument that it’s more dangerous to drive your kids in a car than sail. Should families not go on driving trips because someone went in an old car, broke down and ended up in danger? Interestingly, no one made a fuss in the pre-Internet era when the Martin family did a circumnavigation on a CAL 25 – with three children being born along the way, including one when they were AT SEA. http://www.cal25.com/page11/page42/WorldCruiser.html Jack Brennan Former CC 25 Shanachie, 1974 Bristol 30 Tierra Verde, Fl. This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart - an ignorant woman blogs...
OldSteveH wrote: snip Good planning, risk analysis and contingency planning are essential to a successful long distance sailing trip. Yes unforeseen stuff can happen to the boat, but I'm still talking about those children. If these people had done proper trip planning they would have assessed the risks snip I said something similar as Steve a few days ago, on the Southbound Cruisers email list, and was flamed pretty harshly. And as is the case with flaming emails, they usually take a phrase out of context or change what was actually said to support his or her angry words. So I'm quiet over there. It's important to remember that Rebel Heart wasn't a 'kid boat' but a 'baby boat.' I think kid boats are great, and cannot imagine a better experience for a kid who can help sail and maintain the boat and gain rich memories that will last for the rest of his or her life. The baby was 13 months old, and had never been off shore other than crossing the Sea of Cortez. The boat was primarily in the marina or anchored close by most of this winter season. Rebel Heart left from La Cruz de Huanacaxtle, where I'm currently on the hook. This is a major launching port for folks heading across the Pacific. Probably 15 boats left last month, and it would have been very easy to 'buddy boat' with someone for mutual aid and support. A lot of experienced sailors do it. Rebel Heart had many friends down here (they were on the radio constantly) and I think they should have buddy boated. Many facts are still unknown, of course, and may never be known because it would be risky to update the blog *http://www.therebelheart.com/blog/* with any fact that could cause legal or insurance problems. I haven't heard anything about rough weather prior to the 'modernmom' blog. In fact, during this time of year Mike from PVsailing (the guy who broke his legs during the BB regatta) will provide tropical weather advice every day on the VHF cruiser's net, including recommendations for when to take off and when to wait, and conditions were rather soft. Consider that in 14 days they were only 900 miles off Cabo. There is a constant swell from the NW this time of year, and according to the course charts they would have been taking it on the beam, so it probably hadn't been very comfortable. I would have headed more southerly to catch the trades, but perhaps they had a weather router who told them otherwise. I note that Charlotte's blog No one knows facts about losing steerage. However, I've been told they had a HydroVane self steering system, which is designed to be used as an emergency rudder. No one knows facts about engine trouble, although I heard that they did get it working. Frankly, no one really knows what was wrong with the baby. It broke out with a fever and a full body rash, but was better soon enough for the Coast Guard to cancel the helicopter rescue effort. A 13 month old can't tell you what hurts. Charlotte's own blog says the boat was rocking pretty badly and she was crying and bruised (probably from sailing with the swell on the beam) and for all we know the baby was just really stressed out and got a case of hives. Anyway, I'm glad the family is okay and am sorry that a good boat was scuttled. Wal ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart - an ignorant woman blogs...
I don't think anyone is suggesting that there are no risks when you go to sea. (Spoiler Alert: There are plenty) The key is to understand them and to take prudent steps to manage them. But even if you do that, bad luck can still happen. (And it does from time to time) From what I understand of Rebel Heart (and I don't know the guy), I have no reason to doubt that they didn't understand, prepare for or manage the risks involved. He has been a regular contributor on CF and most of the folks over there have a lot of time for him. What infuriates me is when people like this writer make the assertion that any non-zero risk is too great when a child is concerned, yet they expose their children to dozens of non-zero risks every day and aren't even aware of it. And then when she invokes Jaws and the Perfect Storm... that's just crazy talk. Disclosure: While I'm not necessarily the most experienced parent or sailor on the planet, I do have 3 kids, and in addition to tons of coastal cruising they have all done 4 offshore passages ranging from 700 to 1400 miles - so I do have a fair bit of experience as it pertains to this particular subject. Certainly more than that blogger. Cheers, Colin On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 4:07 PM, charliekilo...@gmail.com wrote: Good point about Dave and Jaja. Reading their stories in the 90's was a huge inspiration to us when we were making our plans to take off in 2009. I still have one of their Cruising World cover stories as bathroom reading in our basement (the one where he's standing on the spreaders in a survival suit scanning the horizon with binoculars) The only issue I take with Dave and Jaja is not from a parenting perspective, but when they decided to freeze themselves into the arctic ice for a full winter. Personally, I think boats do a lot better when the water's in liquid form and the ice is in your drink. Cheers, Colin Sent from Windows Mail *From:* Jack Brennan jackbren...@bellsouth.net *Sent:* Wednesday, April 09, 2014 3:13 PM *To:* CC List cnc-list@cnc-list.com As an old newspaper guy and web producer, I'll say this clearly is a case of a blogger knowing how to stir the pot to get a great deal of clicks and attention ... The fact is that there are many families out there cruising with small children and nothing bad happens, just as there are families out there traveling in cars and campers. You could make a good statistical argument that it's more dangerous to drive your kids in a car than sail. Should families not go on driving trips because someone went in an old car, broke down and ended up in danger? Interestingly, no one made a fuss in the pre-Internet era when the Martin family did a circumnavigation on a CAL 25 - with three children being born along the way, including one when they were AT SEA. http://www.cal25.com/page11/page42/WorldCruiser.html Jack Brennan Former CC 25 Shanachie, 1974 Bristol 30 Tierra Verde, Fl. -- http://www.avast.com/ This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirushttp://www.avast.com/protection is active. ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart - an ignorant woman blogs...
Not so bad; we were all there once unless he is the lady in the picture _ From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Della Barba, Joe Sent: April 9, 2014 11:50 AM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart - an ignorant woman blogs... Good for you! They'll be telling their kids about it. I can embarrass my son with this photo. http://www.dellabarba.com/sailing/images/noah093x.JPG Joe Della Barba Coquina From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Frederick G Street Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 10:44 AM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart - an ignorant woman blogs... I didn't start sailing young enough to have had that experience; but you can be darn sure my kids did! Fred Street -- Minneapolis S/V Oceanis (1979 CC Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI :^( On Apr 9, 2014, at 9:42 AM, Della Barba, Joe joe.della.ba...@ssa.gov wrote: I still remember watching the east coast drop out of view astern with nothing but Atlantic Ocean ahead at age 12. It was a BIG thrill at that age :-) ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart - an ignorant woman blogs...
Bold enough to say 'it shows _ From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Frederick G Street Sent: April 9, 2014 1:00 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart - an ignorant woman blogs... Steve - I started at 37, and have been playing catch-up ever since. :^) Fred Street -- Minneapolis S/V Oceanis (1979 CC Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI :^( On Apr 9, 2014, at 10:06 AM, Stevan Plavsa stevanpla...@gmail.com wrote: You guys that grew up sailing are lucky, don't forget it. I started sailing at 30 and closing the gap on things that you simply learn by osmosis growing up around sailors is hard. (as is evident by my high post count to this list) Steve Suhana, CC 32 Toronto ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart - an ignorant woman blogs...
Big gap.not sure about osmosis but everything is a learning eaperience _ From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Stevan Plavsa Sent: April 9, 2014 12:06 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart - an ignorant woman blogs... You guys that grew up sailing are lucky, don't forget it. I started sailing at 30 and closing the gap on things that you simply learn by osmosis growing up around sailors is hard. (as is evident by my high post count to this list) Steve Suhana, CC 32 Toronto On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 10:50 AM, Della Barba, Joe joe.della.ba...@ssa.gov wrote: Good for you! They'll be telling their kids about it. I can embarrass my son with this photo. http://www.dellabarba.com/sailing/images/noah093x.JPG Joe Della Barba Coquina From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Frederick G Street Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 10:44 AM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart - an ignorant woman blogs... I didn't start sailing young enough to have had that experience; but you can be darn sure my kids did! Fred Street -- Minneapolis S/V Oceanis (1979 CC Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI :^( On Apr 9, 2014, at 9:42 AM, Della Barba, Joe joe.della.ba...@ssa.gov wrote: I still remember watching the east coast drop out of view astern with nothing but Atlantic Ocean ahead at age 12. It was a BIG thrill at that age :-) ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart - an ignorant woman blogs...
I tried to speak to safety and seamanship earlier on this list with regard to a member planning his first overnight voyage alone and I was told in no uncertain terms to lighten up so are you wasting your words here, maybe!!! Sailing is hazardous by definition, at least around here it is, one never knows when the ocean will get angry, even on a nice afternoon day sail things can change for the worse pretty darn quick _ From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Jerome Tauber Sent: April 9, 2014 1:33 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart - an ignorant woman blogs... This discussion needs some balance. If you do not recognize the inherent dangers of trans-oceanic cruising in a small (and in this case also old) boat then you are lacking in seamanship and navigation skills. To deny these risks is merely and expression of lack of knowledge and understanding of good seamanship. To expose a young child to these risks in my view demonstrates questionable judgment and an unreasonable risk to the life and safety of the child. The possibility of injury or illness without resort to medical facilities is in itself questionable. Two people as a crew under adverse sea conditions is limited at best and adding the need to watch and protect the childred during a storm makes it much worse. What if the child fell and suffered a serious injury? I have been offshore in storms and it requires total attention to the boat and crew safety. Let's a least be fair. This is not a one sided discussion. At a very minimum a sailor must recognize these risks and be willing to subject their young children to them without the consent of the children.Comparing to a car is not a good one. In NY young children must be strapped into an approved child seat in the back of the car. Doors must have child safety locks. Boats offshore are unregulated. I was a product safety attorney for many years and I have seen the cost of not recognizing and taking proper precautions when engaging in hazardous activities. Jerome Tauber, CC 27 MKV -Original Message- From: Stevan Plavsa stevanpla...@gmail.com To: cnc-list cnc-list@cnc-list.com Sent: Wed, Apr 9, 2014 11:07 am Subject: Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart - an ignorant woman blogs... You guys that grew up sailing are lucky, don't forget it. I started sailing at 30 and closing the gap on things that you simply learn by osmosis growing up around sailors is hard. (as is evident by my high post count to this list) Steve Suhana, CC 32 Toronto On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 10:50 AM, Della Barba, Joe joe.della.ba...@ssa.gov wrote: Good for you! They'll be telling their kids about it. I can embarrass my son with this photo. http://www.dellabarba.com/sailing/images/noah093x.JPG Joe Della Barba Coquina From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Frederick G Street Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 10:44 AM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart - an ignorant woman blogs... I didn't start sailing young enough to have had that experience; but you can be darn sure my kids did! Fred Street -- Minneapolis S/V Oceanis (1979 CC Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI :^( On Apr 9, 2014, at 9:42 AM, Della Barba, Joe joe.della.ba...@ssa.gov wrote: I still remember watching the east coast drop out of view astern with nothing but Atlantic Ocean ahead at age 12. It was a BIG thrill at that age :-) ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart - an ignorant woman blogs...
Society has rules because the majority want those rules.I don't need all the rules and they do get in my way sometimes _ From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Stevan Plavsa Sent: April 9, 2014 1:50 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart - an ignorant woman blogs... I think this starts to get into a wider discussion. People like to talk about how survival of the fittest and evolution created all that we know, including us, and they will defend the teaching of evolution in the school system etc. Well, the warning labels, idiot proofing and regulation have essentially defeated evolution. So the laws of evolution no longer apply, is that what we want? Stupid people have lots of kids, what's that doing the gene pool? We live in an aquarium. People around here like to talk about how driving isn't a right, it's a privilege. Well, judging by how terrible the drivers are around here I'de say it's a right (not that I agree with that). We've dumbed everything down to the point where people can't take responsibility for their own actions anymore. To me, it's their family, their decision. Personally though I think these people are smarter (evolutionarily better) than most people I encounter on a daily basis. Steve Suhana, CC 32 Toronto On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 12:32 PM, Jerome Tauber jrtau...@aol.com wrote: This discussion needs some balance. If you do not recognize the inherent dangers of trans-oceanic cruising in a small (and in this case also old) boat then you are lacking in seamanship and navigation skills. To deny these risks is merely and expression of lack of knowledge and understanding of good seamanship. To expose a young child to these risks in my view demonstrates questionable judgment and an unreasonable risk to the life and safety of the child. The possibility of injury or illness without resort to medical facilities is in itself questionable. Two people as a crew under adverse sea conditions is limited at best and adding the need to watch and protect the childred during a storm makes it much worse. What if the child fell and suffered a serious injury? I have been offshore in storms and it requires total attention to the boat and crew safety. Let's a least be fair. This is not a one sided discussion. At a very minimum a sailor must recognize these risks and be willing to subject their young children to them without the consent of the children.Comparing to a car is not a good one. In NY young children must be strapped into an approved child seat in the back of the car. Doors must have child safety locks. Boats offshore are unregulated. I was a product safety attorney for many years and I have seen the cost of not recognizing and taking proper precautions when engaging in hazardous activities. Jerome Tauber, CC 27 MKV -Original Message- From: Stevan Plavsa stevanpla...@gmail.com To: cnc-list cnc-list@cnc-list.com Sent: Wed, Apr 9, 2014 11:07 am Subject: Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart - an ignorant woman blogs... You guys that grew up sailing are lucky, don't forget it. I started sailing at 30 and closing the gap on things that you simply learn by osmosis growing up around sailors is hard. (as is evident by my high post count to this list) Steve Suhana, CC 32 Toronto On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 10:50 AM, Della Barba, Joe joe.della.ba...@ssa.gov wrote: Good for you! They'll be telling their kids about it. I can embarrass my son with this photo. http://www.dellabarba.com/sailing/images/noah093x.JPG Joe Della Barba Coquina From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Frederick G Street Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 10:44 AM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart - an ignorant woman blogs... I didn't start sailing young enough to have had that experience; but you can be darn sure my kids did! Fred Street -- Minneapolis S/V Oceanis (1979 CC Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI :^( On Apr 9, 2014, at 9:42 AM, Della Barba, Joe joe.della.ba...@ssa.gov wrote: I still remember watching the east coast drop out of view astern with nothing but Atlantic Ocean ahead at age 12. It was a BIG thrill at that age :-) ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart - an ignorant woman blogs...
Are you really a doctor??? This does not sound like a real doctor talking.governments try to make laws that society wants.oh I see you are in chiropractic medicine, let me fix you now and please return every 2 weeks for the rest of your life for another fix _ From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Dr. Mark Bodnar Sent: April 9, 2014 2:23 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart - an ignorant woman blogs... I agree wholeheartedly. Society, in our attempt to make idiot proof, is making our lives so full of rules and regulations that we hardly know what to do unless we are told. I read a short article in Discover magazine a while back - it talked about a small town in northern Europe (Sweden?) that decided to install their first traffic light. A year later they had experienced a significant increase in the number of accidents at the intersection. In the resulting study they learned that with a light telling them what to do, people didn't put any thought into the process. If the light was green they just drove through the intersection -- if someone coming the other way accidentally entered the intersection then there was an accident. Take away the light and people would approach the intersection looking for any possible trouble - eyes open and brain engaged. They took out the traffic light and the number of accidents reverted back to normal levels. I feel we suffer the same problem in so many areas. I counted 13 street signs in the 500m leading up to my kids school a few months back --- I'm supposed to read all those and obey -- but at the same time I really should be watching the road looking for kids possibly crossing On some levels driver distraction has become the biggest cause of accidents because we have made roads so smooth and consistent that people don't need to pay much attention - until something unexpected happens. Yes there are risks taking kids on that type of trip. I've never been offshore so I won't try to comment on the relative risks - but I do think that taking kids on such a trip is reasonably appropriate given some thought has gone into the planning etc. To quote a comedian - You can't fix stupid --- unfortunately our governments are trying to write laws for just that purpose. Laws that end up entangling people who are making reasonable decisions. Mark - Dr. Mark Bodnar B.Sc., D.C., FCCOPR(C) Bedford Chiropractic - There is no cure for birth and death save to enjoy the interval. - George Santayana On 09/04/2014 1:50 PM, Stevan Plavsa wrote: I think this starts to get into a wider discussion. People like to talk about how survival of the fittest and evolution created all that we know, including us, and they will defend the teaching of evolution in the school system etc. Well, the warning labels, idiot proofing and regulation have essentially defeated evolution. So the laws of evolution no longer apply, is that what we want? Stupid people have lots of kids, what's that doing the gene pool? We live in an aquarium. People around here like to talk about how driving isn't a right, it's a privilege. Well, judging by how terrible the drivers are around here I'de say it's a right (not that I agree with that). We've dumbed everything down to the point where people can't take responsibility for their own actions anymore. To me, it's their family, their decision. Personally though I think these people are smarter (evolutionarily better) than most people I encounter on a daily basis. Steve Suhana, CC 32 Toronto On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 12:32 PM, Jerome Tauber jrtau...@aol.com wrote: This discussion needs some balance. If you do not recognize the inherent dangers of trans-oceanic cruising in a small (and in this case also old) boat then you are lacking in seamanship and navigation skills. To deny these risks is merely and expression of lack of knowledge and understanding of good seamanship. To expose a young child to these risks in my view demonstrates questionable judgment and an unreasonable risk to the life and safety of the child. The possibility of injury or illness without resort to medical facilities is in itself questionable. Two people as a crew under adverse sea conditions is limited at best and adding the need to watch and protect the childred during a storm makes it much worse. What if the child fell and suffered a serious injury? I have been offshore in storms and it requires total attention to the boat and crew safety. Let's a least be fair. This is not a one sided discussion. At a very minimum a sailor must recognize these risks and be willing to subject their young children to them without the consent of the children.Comparing to a car is not a good one. In NY young children must be strapped into an approved child seat in the back of the car. Doors must have child safety locks. Boats offshore
Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart - an ignorant woman blogs...
Time out Dwight. Your doctor comment is inappropriate. On this list we are amongst friends regardless of our opinion. Please be civil. In the spirit of full disclosure, I see a Doctor of Chiropractic Medicine about six times a year. I am very happy with the results after each visit. Furthermore, I see a real doctor very seldom... maybe three times in the past ten years. The results speak for themselves. On the subject of overbearing rules, I belive we are profoundly heading down the road where all activities will be regulated and our favourite activities will be deemed dangerous. I did sail offshore with a 6 year old boy and his mother. She had sailed once before in the kindergarten known as the Gulf Islands and the lad had never been on a sailboat. They joined me in Jamaica and got off at Hawaii via French Polynesia. The boat was a 32' Southern Cross named Dove. PO builder sailed around the world with the wife two daughters and their son was born in South Africa after repairs to a dismasting. Steven came across the Atlantic at the age of one. Free trade and sailor's rights, Russ Sweet 35 mk-1 At 05:18 PM 09/04/2014, you wrote: Are you really a doctor??? This does not sound like a real doctor talking governments try to make laws that society wants oh I see you are in chiropractic medicine, let me fix you now and please return every 2 weeks for the rest of your life for another fix -- From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Dr. Mark Bodnar Sent: April 9, 2014 2:23 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Rebel Heart - an ignorant woman blogs... I agree wholeheartedly. Society, in our attempt to make idiot proof, is making our lives so full of rules and regulations that we hardly know what to do unless we are told. I read a short article in Discover magazine a while back - it talked about a small town in northern Europe (Sweden?) that decided to install their first traffic light. A year later they had experienced a significant increase in the number of accidents at the intersection. In the resulting study they learned that with a light telling them what to do, people didn't put any thought into the process. If the light was green they just drove through the intersection -- if someone coming the other way accidentally entered the intersection then there was an accident. Take away the light and people would approach the intersection looking for any possible trouble - eyes open and brain engaged. They took out the traffic light and the number of accidents reverted back to normal levels. I feel we suffer the same problem in so many areas. I counted 13 street signs in the 500m leading up to my kids school a few months back --- I'm supposed to read all those and obey -- but at the same time I really should be watching the road looking for kids possibly crossing On some levels driver distraction has become the biggest cause of accidents because we have made roads so smooth and consistent that people don't need to pay much attention - until something unexpected happens. Yes there are risks taking kids on that type of trip. I've never been offshore so I won't try to comment on the relative risks - but I do think that taking kids on such a trip is reasonably appropriate given some thought has gone into the planning etc. To quote a comedian - You can't fix stupid --- unfortunately our governments are trying to write laws for just that purpose. Laws that end up entangling people who are making reasonable decisions. Mark - Dr. Mark Bodnar B.Sc., D.C., FCCOPR(C) Bedford Chiropractic - There is no cure for birth and death save to enjoy the interval. - George SantayanaOn 09/04/2014 1:50 PM, Stevan Plavsa wrote: I think this starts to get into a wider discussion. People like to talk about how survival of the fittest and evolution created all that we know, including us, and they will defend the teaching of evolution in the school system etc. Well, the warning labels, idiot proofing and regulation have essentially defeated evolution. So the laws of evolution no longer apply, is that what we want? Stupid people have lots of kids, what's that doing the gene pool? We live in an aquarium. People around here like to talk about how driving isn't a right, it's a privilege. Well, judging by how terrible the drivers are around here I'de say it's a right (not that I agree with that). We've dumbed everything down to the point where people can't take responsibility for their own actions anymore. To me, it's their family, their decision. Personally though I think these people are smarter (evolutionarily better) than most people I encounter on a daily basis. Steve Suhana, CC 32 Toronto On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 12:32 PM, Jerome Tauber mailto:jrtau...@aol.comjrtau...@aol.com wrote: This discussion needs some balance
