Re: Thoughts on productivity
> On Oct 24, 2019, at 1:29 PM, Jens Alfke wrote: > > Have you tried the app Dash*? It's a general-purpose documentation browser, > and it will automatically index and search installed Apple docsets, much > better than Xcode does. I can't live without it. I did not know about Dash. Much better presentation of Apple documentation than what Apple offers. Thanks for sharing. --Richard Charles ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Thoughts on productivity
> On Oct 24, 2019, at 5:16 PM, James Walker via Cocoa-dev > wrote: > > On 10/24/19 3:57 PM, Rob Petrovec via Cocoa-dev wrote: >>> On Oct 24, 2019, at 4:50 PM, Stephane Sudre wrote: >>> >>> On Fri, Oct 25, 2019 at 12:38 AM Rob Petrovec via Cocoa-dev >>> wrote: If its a ranty bug report, which apparently happens a lot, it goes into a black-hole never to see the light of day if it doesn’t just get closed right off the bat. So try to keep opinions & criticisms out of it. Just the facts and keep it professional. >>> >>> Not fixing an issue because the bug report is ranty is definitely not >>> professional. >> Apple Engineers aren’t in the service industry. So they don’t have to >> sit there and take it with a smile. > > When Apple engineers deal with bug reports, they're not just doing it as a > favor to the person who filed the report. Bugs may affect many developers > and end users, only a few of whom have the ability and the time to file a bug > report. So I agree that it would be unprofessional to ignore a report just > because it's not worded calmly. Most ranty bugs don’t have any actionable content in them though. They are just complaining and being insulting with no content of value, like most rants. They typically don’t have steps to reproduce or logs or video or anything like that. If there is anything actionable in it the engineers will typically copy/paste that actionable content into a new bug and send the original back to be closed. Put yourself in the Apple Engineers shoes. If someone sent you a long ranty, critical, & insulting email, or came up to you and started screaming at you about something, would you want to continue to interact with that person? I seriously doubt it. That person will probably continue to respond in the same way as their initial correspondence and provide nothing of value. —Rob ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Thoughts on productivity
>> One of the problems the Mac has is OLD crap software build on legacy APIs, seeing the black & white Watch Icon makes me want to vomit. >> I’m thankful Apple is prepared to force laggards, who want to keep Mac software back in the last century, quit the platform. Yep, they are very effective at that. An architect called us last week because they need a replacement for TimeSlips on Mac. It does architectural billing. Started out as Mac-only in the 80s, then went cross-platform, then went Windows-only in the early 00s rather than pivot to Carbon. The caller strung it along on a Mac as long as they could. Presumably they will switch to Windows, as many of our users have already done. Casey McDermott TurtleSoft.com On Thu, Oct 24, 2019 at 4:48 PM iLike computing ltd wrote: > I’m sorry you missed moving to Obj-C and Cocoa at the right time, most of > us here made this transition. > > It’s not easy, and to be honest jumping to Obj-C now is a mistake, you > have already missed the bus. Swift is Apples recommended language, I’ve > already made this move and it works fine with Cocoa. A good programmer > constantly renews and "skates to where the puck will be”. If you want to be > on the Apple platforms you need to listen to Apple. > > One of the problems the Mac has is OLD crap software build on legacy APIs, > seeing the black & white Watch Icon makes me want to vomit. I’m thankful > Apple is prepared to force laggards, who want to keep Mac software back in > the last century, quit the platform. > > You’ve made your point, now give us a rest, unless you want help with > Cocoa issues which is what this List is for... > > Cheers > Bill ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Thoughts on productivity
On 10/24/19 3:57 PM, Rob Petrovec via Cocoa-dev wrote: On Oct 24, 2019, at 4:50 PM, Stephane Sudre wrote: On Fri, Oct 25, 2019 at 12:38 AM Rob Petrovec via Cocoa-dev wrote: If its a ranty bug report, which apparently happens a lot, it goes into a black-hole never to see the light of day if it doesn’t just get closed right off the bat. So try to keep opinions & criticisms out of it. Just the facts and keep it professional. Not fixing an issue because the bug report is ranty is definitely not professional. Apple Engineers aren’t in the service industry. So they don’t have to sit there and take it with a smile. When Apple engineers deal with bug reports, they're not just doing it as a favor to the person who filed the report. Bugs may affect many developers and end users, only a few of whom have the ability and the time to file a bug report. So I agree that it would be unprofessional to ignore a report just because it's not worded calmly. ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Thoughts on productivity
> On Oct 24, 2019, at 4:50 PM, Stephane Sudre wrote: > > On Fri, Oct 25, 2019 at 12:38 AM Rob Petrovec via Cocoa-dev > wrote: >> If its a ranty bug report, which apparently happens a lot, it goes into a >> black-hole never to see the light of day if it doesn’t just get closed right >> off the bat. So try to keep opinions & criticisms out of it. Just the >> facts and keep it professional. > > Not fixing an issue because the bug report is ranty is definitely not > professional. Apple Engineers aren’t in the service industry. So they don’t have to sit there and take it with a smile. —Rob ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Thoughts on productivity
On Fri, Oct 25, 2019 at 12:38 AM Rob Petrovec via Cocoa-dev wrote: > If its a ranty bug report, which apparently happens a lot, it goes into a > black-hole never to see the light of day if it doesn’t just get closed right > off the bat. So try to keep opinions & criticisms out of it. Just the facts > and keep it professional. Not fixing an issue because the bug report is ranty is definitely not professional. ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Thoughts on productivity
> On Oct 24, 2019, at 4:01 PM, Gabriel Zachmann via Cocoa-dev > wrote: > >>> >>> >>> >>> https://developer.apple.com/account/#/feedback-assistant >>> >>> https://developer.apple.com/account/#/forums >> >> >> Good luck with that. I've been using OSX/macOS since the Panther days and >> quite frankly I don't think Apple cares. > > Occasionally, I send a bugreport via https://feedbackassistant.apple.com/ > And occasionally, I do get a response, usually they ask for additional > information. > > So, i think, they do listen to the feedback on that channel, at least. > > Best regards, Gabriel My experience is similar. I’ve had numerous bug reports I’ve written fixed over the years. Some took longer than others, but they do get fixed. From talking to some Apple engineers I’m friends with, the key is to write an actionable bug (e.g. provide screen shots, screen recordings, logs and most importantly reproducible steps). If you write a bug that isn’t actionable then there isn’t much they can do with it. If its a ranty bug report, which apparently happens a lot, it goes into a black-hole never to see the light of day if it doesn’t just get closed right off the bat. So try to keep opinions & criticisms out of it. Just the facts and keep it professional. If you run with any haxies and system mods then that makes it even harder for them to diagnose & fix issues. Especially if it uses code injection to do it’s thing. Chances are high the bug is in the haxie/system mod not the OS. Otherwise they would likely have gotten more reports about it and have fixed it. As for forums & mailing lists, some Apple engineers do lurk on them and do reply from time to time. But it isn’t part of their job. They do it on their own. So I agree that if you want to provide feedback, do it via a bug report not via the forums & mailing lists. —Rob ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Thoughts on productivity
>> >> >> >> https://developer.apple.com/account/#/feedback-assistant >> >> https://developer.apple.com/account/#/forums > > > Good luck with that. I've been using OSX/macOS since the Panther days and > quite frankly I don't think Apple cares. Occasionally, I send a bugreport via https://feedbackassistant.apple.com/ And occasionally, I do get a response, usually they ask for additional information. So, i think, they do listen to the feedback on that channel, at least. Best regards, Gabriel ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Thoughts on productivity
> On Oct 24, 2019, at 7:47 AM, Richard Charles via Cocoa-dev > wrote: > > Before September 2014 the developer documentation was excellent. Excellent > online documentation with downloadable and searchable pdfs. Now all pdfs are > gone and online documentation is like art on display in a museum. Great to > look at but not very usable. Have you tried the app Dash*? It's a general-purpose documentation browser, and it will automatically index and search installed Apple docsets, much better than Xcode does. I can't live without it. (I'm not doing so much Apple-specific coding these days, but I'm still constantly using Dash to look up C++ library classes, Mac man pages, SQLite syntax, Python syntax, etc. It's one of eight apps I've got hot-keys for.) —Jens * https://kapeli.com/dash ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Thoughts on productivity
>>I think you missed a step when learning Cocoa. A great way to start is with something like Cocoa Programming for Mac OS X by Aaron Hillegass No, working through the Hillegass books was the first thing we did- first the current edition for Swift, then the previous one for Objective-C. We also read through every other book in existence about Cocoa, before even starting to code. That may have flattened the learning curve. We started by programming with nibs and bindings, as the books teach. Then we gradually discovered that it was very hard to scale it up to a large working app. Moving as much as possible from nibs to code solved a lot of problems. Casey McDermott TurtleSoft.com On Thu, Oct 24, 2019 at 10:47 AM Richard Charles wrote: > > > On Oct 24, 2019, at 7:04 AM, Turtle Creek Software via Cocoa-dev < > cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com> wrote: > > > Is there a way to fix this stuff? > > > For the rest, Apple really needs to listen to developers more. > > Some random thoughts. > > Before September 2014 the developer documentation was excellent. Excellent > online documentation with downloadable and searchable pdfs. Now all pdfs > are gone and online documentation is like art on display in a museum. Great > to look at but not very usable. > > I think you missed a step when learning Cocoa. A great way to start is > with something like Cocoa Programming for Mac OS X by Aaron Hillegass. It > has lots of examples to reinforce what you are learning. > > Hopefully the Feedback Assistant will bring better results than the Bug > Reporter. > > Apple Developer Forums are perhaps like the current documentation. Nice to > look at but not very useful. Interesting that this list has had somewhat of > a resurgence in recent months. > > Apple sample code should compile and run on the current version of Xcode. > Period. What good is sample code if it takes a day to get it up and running. > > --Richard Charles > > ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Thoughts on productivity
> > This is how you move towards a solution. > > https://developer.apple.com/account/#/feedback-assistant > > https://developer.apple.com/account/#/forums Good luck with that. I've been using OSX/macOS since the Panther days and quite frankly I don't think Apple cares. I've submitted dozens of feature requests in the feedback form over the past decade, never received an answer or saw one realized. Same thing with the Webkit bugs that I have reported over the years. All are still open and received very little attention from the devs. AFAIK Apple's forums are for the community only. ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Thoughts on productivity
> On Oct 24, 2019, at 7:04 AM, Turtle Creek Software via Cocoa-dev > wrote: > Is there a way to fix this stuff? > For the rest, Apple really needs to listen to developers more. Some random thoughts. Before September 2014 the developer documentation was excellent. Excellent online documentation with downloadable and searchable pdfs. Now all pdfs are gone and online documentation is like art on display in a museum. Great to look at but not very usable. I think you missed a step when learning Cocoa. A great way to start is with something like Cocoa Programming for Mac OS X by Aaron Hillegass. It has lots of examples to reinforce what you are learning. Hopefully the Feedback Assistant will bring better results than the Bug Reporter. Apple Developer Forums are perhaps like the current documentation. Nice to look at but not very useful. Interesting that this list has had somewhat of a resurgence in recent months. Apple sample code should compile and run on the current version of Xcode. Period. What good is sample code if it takes a day to get it up and running. --Richard Charles ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Thoughts on productivity
> > These days, Cocoa is pretty much the only tool that creates native > software for Apple hardware. There's iOS too which has a lot more devs (outside from Apple) than macOS. No wonder Apple is "merging" the two SDKs (SwiftUI, Catalyst, etc). ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Thoughts on productivity
On Oct 24, 2019, at 6:08 AM, Turtle Creek Software via Cocoa-dev wrote: > Is there a way to fix this stuff? … > For the rest, Apple really needs to listen to developers more. This is how you move towards a solution. https://developer.apple.com/account/#/feedback-assistant https://developer.apple.com/account/#/forums -- Gary L. Wade http://www.garywade.com/ ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
