Re: Thoughts on Objective-C++

[Saagar Jha via Cocoa-dev]

Based on the listing, I’d guess UWP.

Saagar Jha

> On Nov 19, 2019, at 21:18, Richard Charles via Cocoa-dev 
>  wrote:
> 
>> On Nov 13, 2019, at 11:58 AM, Richard Charles  wrote:
>> 
>> Apple released iTunes for Windows in October 2003.
>> 
> 
> 
> Apple just posted a job opening for a Senior Software Engineer- Windows Media 
> Apps. It would be interesting to know how they plan on porting the new macOS 
> media apps to Windows and what tools and frameworks they will be using.
> 
> https://jobs.apple.com/en-gb/details/200013614/senior-software-engineer-windows-media-apps
> 
> --Richard Charles
> 
> ___
> 
> Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com)
> 
> Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list.
> Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com
> 
> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
> https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/saagar%40saagarjha.com
> 
> This email sent to saa...@saagarjha.com

___

Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com)

Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list.
Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com

Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com

This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: Thoughts on Objective-C++

[Richard Charles via Cocoa-dev]

> On Nov 13, 2019, at 11:58 AM, Richard Charles  wrote:
> 
> Apple released iTunes for Windows in October 2003.
> 


Apple just posted a job opening for a Senior Software Engineer- Windows Media 
Apps. It would be interesting to know how they plan on porting the new macOS 
media apps to Windows and what tools and frameworks they will be using.

https://jobs.apple.com/en-gb/details/200013614/senior-software-engineer-windows-media-apps

--Richard Charles

___

Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com)

Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list.
Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com

Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com

This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: Thoughts on Objective-C++

[Matthew Kozak via Cocoa-dev]

Last year or so, there was much discussion about Apple shutting down many of 
their lists (some did go away, but this one persists).  An external solution 
was found, by some of those list members, although they have been extremely 
quiet in the last year+.  Here's a message from Steve Mills (is he still here - 
hi, Steve!) from earlier this year:
-
Supposedly, these lists are to be done away with at some point. Someone started 
co...@apple-dev.groups.io, which many of us 
have moved to. Or use the annoying and inferior dev 
forums.developer.apple.com.
-

Not sure why some were killed and this still exists, but either way, 
apple-dev.groups.io may be a good place to start?

I would still not say this is the wrong list for much of this recent thread, 
even if it may not be the best list...at some point.

FYI,
-Matt

On Nov 14, 2019, at 1:20 PM, Fulbert Boussaton via Cocoa-dev 
mailto:cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com>> wrote:

I must confess I’m pretty interested by all opinions since these threads 
started (27th of september I think).

Working in the construction industry, as I am, it might help to get interested 
in this and maybe this list is not the ideal vehicle for this kind of 
discussions but nonetheless, all arguments were very enlightening to me.

Maybe another list for meta or post-mortem discussions could be created ?


Flubb.




On 14 Nov 2019, at 04:32, Jeff Szuhay via Cocoa-dev 
mailto:cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com> 
> wrote:

You made a business decision and now you must live with that decision.

Otherwise, this thread is really getting tiresome.


On Nov 13, 2019, at 4:28 PM, Turtle Creek Software via Cocoa-dev 
mailto:cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com> 
> wrote:

blah blah blah



___

Cocoa-dev mailing list 
(Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com 
)

Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list.
Contact the moderators at 
cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com 


Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.apple.com%2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fcocoa-dev%2F42%2540flubb.netdata=02%7C01%7Cmkozak%40oit.rutgers.edu%7Cc82ecb51e4474c3f697308d7692f547a%7Cb92d2b234d35447093ff69aca6632ffe%7C1%7C0%7C637093524309440884sdata=vJ7G%2B066v84giJV6XLCAchWSIh8pjOa4W2hCIp%2FIyrA%3Dreserved=0
 


This email sent to 4...@flubb.net


___

Cocoa-dev mailing list 
(Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com)

Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list.
Contact the moderators at 
cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com

Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.apple.com%2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fcocoa-dev%2Fmkozak%2540oit.rutgers.edudata=02%7C01%7Cmkozak%40oit.rutgers.edu%7Cc82ecb51e4474c3f697308d7692f547a%7Cb92d2b234d35447093ff69aca6632ffe%7C1%7C0%7C637093524309440884sdata=auitOo3Sv8NJj4LxEsU7Matinzt4lXWxig%2F0R6fIJBc%3Dreserved=0

This email sent to mko...@oit.rutgers.edu

___

Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com)

Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list.
Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com

Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com

This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: Thoughts on Objective-C++

[Fulbert Boussaton via Cocoa-dev]

I must confess I’m pretty interested by all opinions since these threads 
started (27th of september I think).

Working in the construction industry, as I am, it might help to get interested 
in this and maybe this list is not the ideal vehicle for this kind of 
discussions but nonetheless, all arguments were very enlightening to me.

Maybe another list for meta or post-mortem discussions could be created ?


Flubb.



> 
>> On 14 Nov 2019, at 04:32, Jeff Szuhay via Cocoa-dev 
>> mailto:cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> You made a business decision and now you must live with that decision.
>> 
>> Otherwise, this thread is really getting tiresome.
>> 
>> 
>>> On Nov 13, 2019, at 4:28 PM, Turtle Creek Software via Cocoa-dev 
>>> mailto:cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> blah blah blah
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> 
>> Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com 
>> )
>> 
>> Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list.
>> Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com 
>> 
>> 
>> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
>> https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/42%40flubb.net 
>> 
>> 
>> This email sent to 4...@flubb.net
> 

___

Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com)

Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list.
Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com

Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com

This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: Thoughts on Objective-C++

[Gabriel Zachmann via Cocoa-dev]

> Phil mentioned to me in about 1996, 1997 back at Macromedia that it was the 
> goal for Apple to turn computers into the equivalent o kitchen appliances.  
> You won’t upgrade your 

Maybe the metaphor was more referring to the ease-of-use or the market 
proliferation.

The metaphors certainly have changed , because today, the home computer, 
together with all the other devices , must be considered as kind of an IT 
ecosystem,
and, in my impression, Apple was the first company to realize that.


Best regards, Gabriel


___

Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com)

Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list.
Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com

Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com

This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: Thoughts on Objective-C++

[Pier Bover via Cocoa-dev]

 > It’s better for Apple as a company, but personally, I’d rather be able
to upgrade my devices.

It's also extremely bad for the environment.
___

Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com)

Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list.
Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com

Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com

This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: Thoughts on Objective-C++

[Alex Zavatone via Cocoa-dev]

> On Nov 13, 2019, at 6:28 PM, Turtle Creek Software via Cocoa-dev 
>  wrote:
> 
> Convert resources from ResEdit 

DUDE.  This is what, 20 years overdue?
___

Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com)

Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list.
Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com

Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com

This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: Thoughts on Objective-C++

[Alex Zavatone via Cocoa-dev]

> On Nov 13, 2019, at 2:43 PM, Gabriel Zachmann via Cocoa-dev 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
>> be a good time for a SwiftUI pivot. If true, Cocoa is the new Carbon.
>> 
> 
> I think, eventually, maybe in 5 years' time, that will be the case.
> This is really just a guess, I have no insights into Apple's roadmap.

Back before Steve brought Phil back to Apple, we worked together at Macromedia.
Phil mentioned to me in about 1996, 1997 back at Macromedia that it was the 
goal for Apple to turn computers into the equivalent o kitchen appliances.  You 
won’t upgrade your computer, you will just buy a new appliance.  

We’re still on the pathway there.

It’s better for Apple as a company, but personally, I’d rather be able to 
upgrade my devices.

Cheers,
Alex Zavatone

___

Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com)

Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list.
Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com

Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com

This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: Thoughts on Objective-C++

[Jeff Szuhay via Cocoa-dev]

You made a business decision and now you must live with that decision.

Otherwise, this thread is really getting tiresome.


> On Nov 13, 2019, at 4:28 PM, Turtle Creek Software via Cocoa-dev 
>  wrote:
> 
> blah blah blah



___

Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com)

Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list.
Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com

Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com

This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: Thoughts on Objective-C++

[Turtle Creek Software via Cocoa-dev]

Our app is used by remodelers and construction folks to run their
businesses- accounting, estimating, project management, billing, payroll.
It's big- kinda like FileMaker, plus QuickBooks, plus a bit of Excel, plus
a drawing window for customizing. It took about 15 programmer-years for
version 1.0, then another 5 to get it really good.  It's too big, but
people need it all to run their biz.

There are a few similar apps on Windows, but we have the only one for Mac.
I don't think anyone else on Mac does payroll- which is insanely
complicated. A few thousand users.  We run the TurtleSoft business with it,
plus another which is paying the bills right now. You can download our demo
and take a look, if you want.  If anyone wants to see the stalled Cocoa
beta I can send it.

We are remodelers who learned to program Excel, then HyperTalk, then C++,
usually just working part-time at it.  I'm sure we aren't rock stars as
programmers, but we managed to ship some decent apps.  There were 2 or 3
programmers on staff for most of the 90s.  Mostly just founders and
subcontractors since then.

We started the 64-bit update in 2013 and not before because construction
was hit very hard by the recession.  2008 to 2011 sales dropped 50% each
year, so it was major downsizing.  We tried to subcontract the Cocoa
update, but 4 different contractors tried it, realized they grossly
underbid and gave up.

Here's a rough programmer-month breakdown for the entire 64-bit update,
spread out over 5 years:
Complete object database rewrite- 4 months + 2 months debugging
Remove PowerPlant, rewrite LArray, misc updating to 64-bit and modern C++ -
6 months
Find subcontractors, negotiate, test, etc-  4 months
Convert resources from ResEdit to modern formats- 1 month
Learn Objective-C, Cocoa and Swift- 4 months
Main window setup, files, C++ to Obj-C links, Cocoa basics- 4 months
Ditto in Visual Studio/MFC- 1 month
Redo & improve main window design in MFC & Cocoa- 3 months
Get various Excel-like tables to work with NSTableView- 6 months
Revise table data entry to use panels because tables still didn't work
right- 1 month
Redo drawing environment for customizing- 1 month (gave up, sample project
too old)
Debug mystery crashes in Cocoa- 3 months
Specialty windows & misc- 4 months (still not done)

The first 10 years were a blast--  rapid growth, excellent cash flow, lots
of travel, teaching clases, spending time with users and other developers.
Then Apple hit the wall and it was 5 years of barely hanging on.  Then 5
years of excellent cash flow again.  The past 10 years have just been eking
and hard work, thankfully not full-time.  Hopefully we'll get a cash cow
back at some point, so it's fun again.

Casey McDermott
TurtleSoft.com

On Wed, Nov 13, 2019 at 3:21 PM Laurent Daudelin 
wrote:

> You know, I was thinking the same when Casey mentioned how long it was
> taking to convert their app to Cocoa...
>
> -Laurent.
> --
>
> On Nov 13, 2019, at 14:38, Gary L. Wade via Cocoa-dev <
> cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com> wrote:
>
> If it takes you that long, then you need to hire new developers rather
> than wasting your time posting complaints on an email list.
> --
> Gary L. Wade
> http://www.garywade.com/
>
> On Nov 13, 2019, at 11:32 AM, Turtle Creek Software via Cocoa-dev <
> cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com> wrote:
>
> We have to plan 5 or 10 years ahead, because it takes that long to create
> an app and sell it for long enough to get payback.
>
>
>
___

Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com)

Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list.
Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com

Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com

This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: Thoughts on Objective-C++

[Jens Alfke via Cocoa-dev]

> On Nov 13, 2019, at 10:58 AM, Richard Charles via Cocoa-dev 
>  wrote:
> 
> Over the last 16 years would bet that a lot of spit and polish has gone into 
> integrating Cocoa with Windows by the iTunes team.

They only integrated the iTunes app with Windows. Getting a single app working 
does not make a GUI framework suitable for general use. It would have taken 
much, much more work to produce and support something that could be used by all 
app developers. And apparently Apple determined that this wasn't in their 
interest, probably with good reasons.

—Jens
___

Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com)

Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list.
Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com

Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com

This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: Thoughts on Objective-C++

[Saagar Jha via Cocoa-dev]

Saagar Jha

> On Nov 13, 2019, at 12:43, Gabriel Zachmann via Cocoa-dev 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
>> be a good time for a SwiftUI pivot. If true, Cocoa is the new Carbon.
>> 
> 
> I think, eventually, maybe in 5 years' time, that will be the case.
> This is really just a guess, I have no insights into Apple's roadmap.
> 
> Speaking of which: I have never been there myself, but wouldn't the apple 
> engineers
> at WWDC share some private, unofficially insights into Apple's future plans?

No, they’re not supposed to.

>> We have to plan 5 or 10 years ahead, because it takes that long to create
> 
> I can understand that.
> 
> My guess would be that in 5-10 years' time, iPad's (i.e., tablets in general),
> will be powerful enough that there won't be any laptop's any more, 
> except maybe some rare models for the gamers.
> The laptops by that time will essentially be tablets that come with 
> pre-installed keyboard.
> 
> I am not sure what will happen to the standard desktop market.
> OTOH, tablets by that time will be powerful enough that , I guess, 90 % of 
> all office applications will run just fine on a tablet.
> OTOH, CIO's are usually reluctant to try out new hardware.
> 
> That would mean that macOS might go away eventually, too,
> because everything will run under iOS.
> 
> Best regards, Gabriel
> 
> 
> ___
> 
> Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com)
> 
> Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list.
> Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com
> 
> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
> https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/saagar%40saagarjha.com
> 
> This email sent to saa...@saagarjha.com

___

Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com)

Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list.
Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com

Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com

This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: Thoughts on Objective-C++

[Mike Abdullah via Cocoa-dev]

> On 13 Nov 2019, at 19:31, Turtle Creek Software via Cocoa-dev 
>  wrote:
> 
> I made a rather bold statement about Cocoa being doomed.  Here's some
> background on where it came from.
> 
> Apple and Microsoft are both working on next-generation app development
> platforms, with the goal of having one dev library for desktop, tablet,
> phone and anything else.  Meanwhile, Mozilla also is working to extend
> WebAssembly from web to plain old CPUs. There may be others.
> 
> Here's Microsoft's page on WinUI:
> https://github.com/microsoft/microsoft-ui-xaml/blob/master/docs/roadmap.md
> 
> It has details. Timelines. ETAs. Links to GitHub projects. C++ support.
> Places to give feedback. Backwards compatibility. All things that make life
> easier for developers.
> 
> Meanwhile, here is Apple's dev page about SwiftUI:
> https://developer.apple.com/xcode/swiftui/
> 
> It sure looks pretty, but it's totally PR. The bit at the bottom presents
> SwiftUI as a mature and amazing technology for all Apple products (no
> desktop shown, but there's a laptop Mac). Simple past experience (i.e.
> cynicism) suggests that once there's a new tool, the old one is soon
> deprecated and eventually killed. It made things like the dearth of
> documentation and unchanged sample projects seem like foreshadowing.
> There's no timeline listed, but rumors are 2020 for ARM chips. That would
> be a good time for a SwiftUI pivot. If true, Cocoa is the new Carbon.
> 
> We have to plan 5 or 10 years ahead, because it takes that long to create
> an app and sell it for long enough to get payback. Unfortunately, with
> Apple that means guessing the future from rumor and marketing hype.

Realistically though, Apple has a mountain of code that uses Cocoa for its UI. 
They’re not going to rewrite it all to SwiftUI in the short term. For the same 
reason, Objective-C, C and C++ are going to be supported for a long time yet 
because there are huge piles of code in Apple that rely on it.

Sure, Cocoa will see less in the way of updates, but don’t expect it to 
actually disappear in that 5 year time frame.

Mike.

___

Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com)

Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list.
Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com

Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com

This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: Re: Thoughts on Objective-C++

[Gabriel Zachmann via Cocoa-dev]

> be a good time for a SwiftUI pivot. If true, Cocoa is the new Carbon.
> 

I think, eventually, maybe in 5 years' time, that will be the case.
This is really just a guess, I have no insights into Apple's roadmap.

Speaking of which: I have never been there myself, but wouldn't the apple 
engineers
at WWDC share some private, unofficially insights into Apple's future plans?

> We have to plan 5 or 10 years ahead, because it takes that long to create

I can understand that.

My guess would be that in 5-10 years' time, iPad's (i.e., tablets in general),
will be powerful enough that there won't be any laptop's any more, 
except maybe some rare models for the gamers.
The laptops by that time will essentially be tablets that come with 
pre-installed keyboard.

I am not sure what will happen to the standard desktop market.
OTOH, tablets by that time will be powerful enough that , I guess, 90 % of all 
office applications will run just fine on a tablet.
OTOH, CIO's are usually reluctant to try out new hardware.

That would mean that macOS might go away eventually, too,
because everything will run under iOS.

Best regards, Gabriel


___

Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com)

Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list.
Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com

Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com

This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: Thoughts on Objective-C++

[Laurent Daudelin via Cocoa-dev]

You know, I was thinking the same when Casey mentioned how long it was taking 
to convert their app to Cocoa...

-Laurent.
-- 

> On Nov 13, 2019, at 14:38, Gary L. Wade via Cocoa-dev 
>  wrote:
> 
> If it takes you that long, then you need to hire new developers rather than 
> wasting your time posting complaints on an email list.
> --
> Gary L. Wade
> http://www.garywade.com/
> 
>> On Nov 13, 2019, at 11:32 AM, Turtle Creek Software via Cocoa-dev 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> We have to plan 5 or 10 years ahead, because it takes that long to create
>> an app and sell it for long enough to get payback.

___

Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com)

Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list.
Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com

Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com

This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: Thoughts on Objective-C++

[Gary L. Wade via Cocoa-dev]

If it takes you that long, then you need to hire new developers rather than 
wasting your time posting complaints on an email list.
--
Gary L. Wade
http://www.garywade.com/

> On Nov 13, 2019, at 11:32 AM, Turtle Creek Software via Cocoa-dev 
>  wrote:
> 
> We have to plan 5 or 10 years ahead, because it takes that long to create
> an app and sell it for long enough to get payback.

___

Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com)

Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list.
Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com

Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com

This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: Re: Thoughts on Objective-C++

[Turtle Creek Software via Cocoa-dev]

I made a rather bold statement about Cocoa being doomed.  Here's some
background on where it came from.

Apple and Microsoft are both working on next-generation app development
platforms, with the goal of having one dev library for desktop, tablet,
phone and anything else.  Meanwhile, Mozilla also is working to extend
WebAssembly from web to plain old CPUs. There may be others.

Here's Microsoft's page on WinUI:
https://github.com/microsoft/microsoft-ui-xaml/blob/master/docs/roadmap.md

It has details. Timelines. ETAs. Links to GitHub projects. C++ support.
Places to give feedback. Backwards compatibility. All things that make life
easier for developers.

Meanwhile, here is Apple's dev page about SwiftUI:
https://developer.apple.com/xcode/swiftui/

It sure looks pretty, but it's totally PR. The bit at the bottom presents
SwiftUI as a mature and amazing technology for all Apple products (no
desktop shown, but there's a laptop Mac). Simple past experience (i.e.
cynicism) suggests that once there's a new tool, the old one is soon
deprecated and eventually killed. It made things like the dearth of
documentation and unchanged sample projects seem like foreshadowing.
There's no timeline listed, but rumors are 2020 for ARM chips. That would
be a good time for a SwiftUI pivot. If true, Cocoa is the new Carbon.

We have to plan 5 or 10 years ahead, because it takes that long to create
an app and sell it for long enough to get payback. Unfortunately, with
Apple that means guessing the future from rumor and marketing hype.

Even if I'm wrong on this, the uncertainty makes any further Cocoa
development more risky.  On the opposite side, the fact that MFC is still a
valid part of the blueprint makes us more confident.  It means we can keep
using C++ as a respected part of the ecosystem, and gradually update the
GUI when WinUI 3 is mature.

I definitely do not mean to start a MS vs Apple flame war.  Microsoft sucks
in many, many ways.  Their WinUI blueprint may change suddenly, or it may
end up being awful.  Apple and MS are both trillion-dollar companies that
will do whatever it takes to grow even bigger.  TurtleSoft is just an ant,
trying not to be stomped by either of them.

Casey McDermott
TurtleSoft.com
___

Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com)

Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list.
Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com

Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com

This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: Thoughts on Objective-C++

[Richard Charles via Cocoa-dev]

> On Nov 13, 2019, at 8:47 AM, Glenn L. Austin via Cocoa-dev 
>  wrote:
> 
> Having worked on an Apple cross-platform application that used the same APIs 
> that iTunes use...
>   ...was a nightmare.
> 
> You'd think that it would be easy, but there are so many assumptions about 
> *how* the APIs work and work together to get your code running - and many of 
> those assumptions simply weren't true when running in a Windows environment. 
> We spent a significant amount of time re-writing various APIs used by the 
> application because the RedBox ones we had access to simply didn't work.
> 
> We won't go into the facts that every Windows font size is *exactly* 33% 
> bigger than they are on the Mac (Windows is 96 dpi, Mac is based on 72 dpi: 
> 96/72 = 4/3). Or that a mouse on Windows was less precise but targets were 
> smaller. Or the myriad of other "issues" that make a Windows app just "feel 
> different."
> 

I am no expert, but I am a little confused.

The Cocoa API provides a very broad surface area covering the hosting OS. In 
1994 the OpenStep API (predecessor to Cocoa) ran on NeXTSTEP, Windows NT and 
Solaris.

The Red Box, Blue Box, Yellow Box was 1997.

Apple released iTunes for Windows in October 2003.

Over the last 16 years would bet that a lot of spit and polish has gone into 
integrating Cocoa with Windows by the iTunes team.

--Richard Charles

___

Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com)

Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list.
Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com

Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com

This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: Thoughts on Objective-C++

[Glenn L. Austin via Cocoa-dev]

> On Nov 12, 2019, at 11:56 PM, Chris Ridd via Cocoa-dev 
>  wrote:
> 
>> 
>> On 12 Nov 2019, at 21:14, Jean-Daniel via Cocoa-dev 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> Le 12 nov. 2019 à 21:30, Richard Charles via Cocoa-dev 
>>>  a écrit :
>>> 
>>> 
 On Nov 12, 2019, at 1:16 PM, GNDGN  wrote:
 
 ‘It’s like giving a glass of ice water to somebody in hell’ - Jobs
 
>>> 
>>> Apple released iTunes for Windows in October 2003. Apparently Cocoa and any 
>>> supporting frameworks were ported to Windows 16 years ago. So what is the 
>>> problem providing this to outside developers?
>>> 
>>> --Richard Charles
>> 
>> Supporting a public API is far more complex and costlier than supporting 
>> some private frameworks.
>> What would be the benefit for Apple to support public API for Windows ?
> 
> Apple did have the Red Box environment, back in the Rhapsody days. I guess 
> they agreed with you, because it never got released AFAIK. I think it was 
> mostly inherited from Next.
> 
> https://lowendmac.com/1997/red-box-blue-box-yellow-box/ 
> 
> 
> Chris

Having worked on an Apple cross-platform application that used the same APIs 
that iTunes use...
...was a nightmare.

You'd think that it would be easy, but there are so many assumptions about 
*how* the APIs work and work together to get your code running - and many of 
those assumptions simply weren't true when running in a Windows environment. We 
spent a significant amount of time re-writing various APIs used by the 
application because the RedBox ones we had access to simply didn't work.

We won't go into the facts that every Windows font size is *exactly* 33% bigger 
than they are on the Mac (Windows is 96 dpi, Mac is based on 72 dpi: 96/72 = 
4/3). Or that a mouse on Windows was less precise but targets were smaller. Or 
the myriad of other "issues" that make a Windows app just "feel different."

I've written apps in Qt, and it does make the cross-platform app development 
process "easier" - but that's much more from a Windows-centric (or 
Linux-centric) viewpoint. The same is true for WxWidgets. Qt also has a pretty 
significant up-front cost in time and money (WxWidgets is open-source, but 
still has the time investment).

-- 
Glenn L. Austin, Computer Wizard and Race Car Driver <><



___

Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com)

Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list.
Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com

Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com

This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: Thoughts on Objective-C++

[Chris Ridd via Cocoa-dev]

> On 12 Nov 2019, at 21:14, Jean-Daniel via Cocoa-dev 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> Le 12 nov. 2019 à 21:30, Richard Charles via Cocoa-dev 
>>  a écrit :
>> 
>> 
>>> On Nov 12, 2019, at 1:16 PM, GNDGN  wrote:
>>> 
>>> ‘It’s like giving a glass of ice water to somebody in hell’ - Jobs
>>> 
>> 
>> Apple released iTunes for Windows in October 2003. Apparently Cocoa and any 
>> supporting frameworks were ported to Windows 16 years ago. So what is the 
>> problem providing this to outside developers?
>> 
>> --Richard Charles
> 
> Supporting a public API is far more complex and costlier than supporting some 
> private frameworks.
> What would be the benefit for Apple to support public API for Windows ?

Apple did have the Red Box environment, back in the Rhapsody days. I guess they 
agreed with you, because it never got released AFAIK. I think it was mostly 
inherited from Next.

https://lowendmac.com/1997/red-box-blue-box-yellow-box/

Chris
___

Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com)

Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list.
Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com

Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com

This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: Thoughts on Objective-C++

[Richard Charles via Cocoa-dev]

> On Nov 12, 2019, at 2:14 PM, Jean-Daniel via Cocoa-dev 
>  wrote:
> 
> What would be the benefit for Apple to support public API for Windows ?
> 


More applications available for the Mac.

Reduce the number of app developers abandoning the Mac platform.

Reduce the number of inferior electron apps on the Mac platform.

--Richard Charles

___

Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com)

Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list.
Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com

Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com

This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: Thoughts on Objective-C++

[Jean-Daniel via Cocoa-dev]

> Le 12 nov. 2019 à 21:30, Richard Charles via Cocoa-dev 
>  a écrit :
> 
> 
>> On Nov 12, 2019, at 1:16 PM, GNDGN  wrote:
>> 
>> ‘It’s like giving a glass of ice water to somebody in hell’ - Jobs
>> 
> 
> Apple released iTunes for Windows in October 2003. Apparently Cocoa and any 
> supporting frameworks were ported to Windows 16 years ago. So what is the 
> problem providing this to outside developers?
> 
> --Richard Charles

Supporting a public API is far more complex and costlier than supporting some 
private frameworks.
What would be the benefit for Apple to support public API for Windows ?


___

Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com)

Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list.
Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com

Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com

This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: Thoughts on Objective-C++

[Turtle Creek Software via Cocoa-dev]

That is a cool discovery!  It would be a game-changer for us, assuming
Apple also committed to long-term support for Cocoa and Objective-C. Life
would be so much sweeter if we only had to write apps once for all PCs. I'd
prefer to do it on Xcode rather than Visual Studio.

In 2001 we contracted the Windows port with subs who short-cutted by using
QuickTime DLLs to run Mac system calls.  It still required about 50% MFC,
and years of user hand-holding for installs.  VectorWorks did the same
thing.  Users who ran both apps simultaneously saw painfully slow screen
refreshes. However, Apple-kosher would presumably avoid all that.

Casey McDermott
TurtleSoft.com

On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 3:00 PM Richard Charles 
wrote:

>
> > On Nov 11, 2019, at 6:05 PM, Turtle Creek Software via Cocoa-dev <
> cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com> wrote:
> >
> > Unfortunately, software for any vertical or specialty market has to deal
> with Mac market share.
> >
>
>
> I just downloaded iTunes 12.10.2.3 (64 bit) for Windows 10 Pro. It runs
> great, looks great, no crashes. An examination of application files shows
> dlls for CoreFoundation, CoreText, Foundation, CoreGraphics, Objective-C,
> etc. This is a Cocoa application.
>
> Why can't Apple provide tools so that outside developers can also do this?
>
> --Richard Charles
>
>
___

Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com)

Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list.
Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com

Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com

This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: Thoughts on Objective-C++

[Gabriel Zachmann via Cocoa-dev]

> 
> I'm not just joking here. Obj-C's dynamic nature is at the heart of a lot of 
> Cocoa's powerful features like Interface Builder and KVO. Super-static 
> languages like C++ don't work well for GUI development, IMHO, because they 
> make it hard to compose high-level objects together.

I agree.

This just how's  - once more - that you need to choose (or develop) the right 
language 
for the right task.
For GUIs, you need a dynamic language.
For super-fast number-crunching codes, a static language, like C++, is much 
better suited.

> 
> Unfortunately, software for any vertical or specialty market has to deal
> with Mac market share. It's 20% overall, but only 2% or 3% for our niche,
> and falling.  Probably 10% or less for businesses in general.  For most
> apps, that means writing code in something other than Obj-C or Swift, with
> minimal pain to connect it to a Mac GUI. 

But if it's about cross-platform software, then wouldn't it make more sense 
to port to a cross-platform middle-ware / GUI library?
Qt comes to mind here, which has very powerful cross-platform abstractions
(including 3D graphics, networking, parallelization, etc.)



Best regards, Gabriel



___

Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com)

Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list.
Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com

Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com

This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: Thoughts on Objective-C++

[GNDGN via Cocoa-dev]

Because they want us devs to stay in their own ecosystem .. which is a pretty 
right move imo. 


> Am 12.11.2019 um 21:30 schrieb Richard Charles :
> 
> 
>> On Nov 12, 2019, at 1:16 PM, GNDGN  wrote:
>> 
>> ‘It’s like giving a glass of ice water to somebody in hell’ - Jobs
>> 
> 
> Apple released iTunes for Windows in October 2003. Apparently Cocoa and any 
> supporting frameworks were ported to Windows 16 years ago. So what is the 
> problem providing this to outside developers?
> 
> --Richard Charles
> 

___

Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com)

Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list.
Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com

Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com

This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: Thoughts on Objective-C++

[Richard Charles via Cocoa-dev]

> On Nov 12, 2019, at 1:16 PM, GNDGN  wrote:
> 
> ‘It’s like giving a glass of ice water to somebody in hell’ - Jobs
> 

Apple released iTunes for Windows in October 2003. Apparently Cocoa and any 
supporting frameworks were ported to Windows 16 years ago. So what is the 
problem providing this to outside developers?

--Richard Charles

___

Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com)

Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list.
Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com

Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com

This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: Thoughts on Objective-C++

[GNDGN via Cocoa-dev]

‘It’s like giving a glass of ice water to somebody in hell’ - Jobs

(;

> Am 12.11.2019 um 21:00 schrieb Richard Charles via Cocoa-dev 
> :
> 
> 
>> On Nov 11, 2019, at 6:05 PM, Turtle Creek Software via Cocoa-dev 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Unfortunately, software for any vertical or specialty market has to deal 
>> with Mac market share.
>> 
> 
> 
> I just downloaded iTunes 12.10.2.3 (64 bit) for Windows 10 Pro. It runs 
> great, looks great, no crashes. An examination of application files shows 
> dlls for CoreFoundation, CoreText, Foundation, CoreGraphics, Objective-C, 
> etc. This is a Cocoa application.
> 
> Why can't Apple provide tools so that outside developers can also do this?
> 
> --Richard Charles
> 
> ___
> 
> Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com)
> 
> Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list.
> Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com
> 
> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
> https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/e%40gndgn.dev
> 
> This email sent to e...@gndgn.dev

___

Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com)

Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list.
Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com

Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com

This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: Thoughts on Objective-C++

[Richard Charles via Cocoa-dev]

> On Nov 11, 2019, at 6:05 PM, Turtle Creek Software via Cocoa-dev 
>  wrote:
> 
> Unfortunately, software for any vertical or specialty market has to deal with 
> Mac market share.
> 


I just downloaded iTunes 12.10.2.3 (64 bit) for Windows 10 Pro. It runs great, 
looks great, no crashes. An examination of application files shows dlls for 
CoreFoundation, CoreText, Foundation, CoreGraphics, Objective-C, etc. This is a 
Cocoa application.

Why can't Apple provide tools so that outside developers can also do this?

--Richard Charles

___

Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com)

Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list.
Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com

Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com

This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: Thoughts on Objective-C++

[Quincey Morris via Cocoa-dev]

On Nov 11, 2019, at 17:05 , Turtle Creek Software via Cocoa-dev 
 wrote:
> 
> I didn't mean to start a language war, because it's not about C++ vs
> Objective-C or Swift.

I’ve been staying out of this, because you’ve seemed impervious (in the last 
few weeks since this topic has been discussed) to acknowledge any opinion other 
than your own. Now I’m just angry.

*Of course* you meant to start a language war. You said:

> I was originally going to post about how modern C++ has far surpassed
> Objective-C. Then suggest that Cocoa would work better if Obj-C were a
> superset of C++ rather than plain C.

Them’s fighting words — especially in a space like this that is inhabited by 
other highly opinionated people. If you don’t want to start a language war, 
stop posting here and go away.

The other thing you said:

> However, after consideration, it seems obvious that Apple will never do
> that. Instead, Objective-C and Cocoa will be deprecated soon, replaced by
> Swift and SwiftUI. That way there is just one shiny new closed system for
> all Apple hardware. So much simpler.

is both clueless and passive aggressive. Enough already.

___

Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com)

Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list.
Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com

Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com

This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: Thoughts on Objective-C++

[Gerald Henriksen via Cocoa-dev]

On Mon, 11 Nov 2019 11:28:57 -0600, you wrote:

>> That’s more open than Obj-C, because Apple never open-sourced Foundation.
>
>AFAIK no Apple frameworks for Swift have been (or will be) open sourced
>either.
>
>> MSVC and .NET are both fully closed, as far as I’m aware.
>
>.NET Core is fully open source:
>https://github.com/dotnet/core
>
>AFAIK Core is only for servers but it's also coming to desktop apps:
>https://devblogs.microsoft.com/dotnet/net-core-3-and-support-for-windows-desktop-applications/

A suprisingly lot of Microsoft stuff is fully(*) open source these
days.

In addition to .Net Core(**) and its associated things (ASP.Net, WPF,
WinForms, ...) the new Terminal (including its new font), Visual
Studio Code, the Microsoft implementation of their STL (with the same
license as LLVM, deliberately chosen so sharing of code is posible),
and the latest (soon to be on GitHub) WinUI 3 which is currently alpha
and will be the new base for all their GUI stuff.  And they are
working to sort out the issue with proper Linux support for exFAT,
which has long been forbidden from the Linux kernel for patent
reasons.

.Net Core (soon .Net) is fully supported by Micrsoft on Windows,
macOS, and Linux - including some ARM support like the Raspberry Pi.
The Desktop stuff (WPF / Winforms) are add on modules for Windows only
but they are, through WinUI 3, contemplating the possibility of going
cross-platform given customer desire for it.

As for writing apps on Windows, the WPF / WinForms stuff is .Net only
so if you use C++ you need to interface to .Net for that.  However,
UWP (the Windows app store) and WinUI 3 both fully support C++ as well
as .Net so if you target either of those you don't need to use .Net at
all.

* - by fully, I mean not just the code but development is also done in
the open, frequently on GitHub.

** - .Net Core 3.x is the last of the Core line, the next major
release is simply .Net 5 and it also supercedes/replaces .Net
Framework that comes as part of Windows.
___

Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com)

Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list.
Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com

Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com

This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: Thoughts on Objective-C++

[Turtle Creek Software via Cocoa-dev]

I didn't mean to start a language war, because it's not about C++ vs
Objective-C or Swift.  It's about whatever lets us create software that
runs on Macintosh and pays for the development cost.  Right now, it only
makes sense to write an entire app in Objective-C or Swift if it's OK to
limit sales to Apple hardware.  That's no problem for iPhone apps, because
iOS has 57% share in the US.  Ditto for small Mac apps, because development
cost is small.

Unfortunately, software for any vertical or specialty market has to deal
with Mac market share. It's 20% overall, but only 2% or 3% for our niche,
and falling.  Probably 10% or less for businesses in general.  For most
apps, that means writing code in something other than Obj-C or Swift, with
minimal pain to connect it to a Mac GUI.  Then having it last long enough
for sales to repay the programming cost.  We couldn't accomplish that with
Cocoa as is.  Not with subs, nor with our own staff.  An easier connection
from C++ to Cocoa would have helped.

I'm really not eager to be working in MFC.  It has plenty of flaws, but at
least it's C++. We can ship a Windows update in a year or so. Then sell it
for another 10 or 20 years.  The only reason we need to update at all is
because the subs doing the Windows port cheated, and used QuickTime DLLs
for the Windows port.

Casey McDermott
TurtleSoft.com

On Mon, Nov 11, 2019 at 5:33 PM Jens Alfke  wrote:

>
>
> On Nov 11, 2019, at 10:46 AM, Turtle Creek Software <
> supp...@turtlesoft.com> wrote:
>
> That means no use of const. All pointers instead of & references.  Both of
> those are good at turning run-time errors into compile-time.  […]  No
> public/private to manage access. Etc. It was like going back to the early
> 90s. Doing without features we learned to use the hard way.
>
>
> Well yes, Obj-C is not a very good C++, just as C++ isn't a very good
> Obj-C. And Haskell isn't a very good Ruby, and vice versa.
>
> I like C++ and use it daily, but I could write a litany of complaints
> about it compared to Obj-C and Swift — C++ has meager
> reflection/introspection, its collection and string APIs are horrendous, it
> has weak and awkward support for memory management, templates are a
> super-kludgy [SFINAE, OMG] way to implement generics,  it promotes writing
> unreadable code, etc.
>
> I'm not just joking here. Obj-C's dynamic nature is at the heart of a lot
> of Cocoa's powerful features like Interface Builder and KVO. Super-static
> languages like C++ don't work well for GUI development, IMHO, because they
> make it hard to compose high-level objects together.
>
> —Jens
>
___

Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com)

Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list.
Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com

Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com

This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: Thoughts on Objective-C++

[Jens Alfke via Cocoa-dev]

> On Nov 11, 2019, at 10:46 AM, Turtle Creek Software  
> wrote:
> 
> That means no use of const. All pointers instead of & references.  Both of 
> those are good at turning run-time errors into compile-time.  […]  No 
> public/private to manage access. Etc. It was like going back to the early 
> 90s. Doing without features we learned to use the hard way.

Well yes, Obj-C is not a very good C++, just as C++ isn't a very good Obj-C. 
And Haskell isn't a very good Ruby, and vice versa.

I like C++ and use it daily, but I could write a litany of complaints about it 
compared to Obj-C and Swift — C++ has meager reflection/introspection, its 
collection and string APIs are horrendous, it has weak and awkward support for 
memory management, templates are a super-kludgy [SFINAE, OMG] way to implement 
generics,  it promotes writing unreadable code, etc.

I'm not just joking here. Obj-C's dynamic nature is at the heart of a lot of 
Cocoa's powerful features like Interface Builder and KVO. Super-static 
languages like C++ don't work well for GUI development, IMHO, because they make 
it hard to compose high-level objects together.

—Jens
___

Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com)

Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list.
Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com

Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com

This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com

Thoughts on Objective-C++

[Gabriel Zachmann via Cocoa-dev]

> 
> Maybe I'm wrong, but we have experienced enough past pivots and
> bridge-burnings that another seems overdue.
> 

Yes, I can understand that.

On the other hand, at least in the old days, 
Microsoft kept all the old API's around for so many years
(for backwards compatibility), 
including bugs in the API, because people relied on them, 
because they had worked around them ...

All of which meant that a lot of applications relied on those old API's,
probably through a stack of layers, so that Microsoft could never 
get rid of them.

Occasionally, I still see the "black movie" bug in presentations at conferences.
(Meaning: the movie plays fine on the laptop screen, but on the projector,
there is only a black rectangle.)

So, overall, sometimes, I think, it is just necessary.

A similar case is OpenGl: while it is a real PITA, i think at some point,
the Khronos group had to pull the plug and design a completely new API.

Best regards, Gabriel



___

Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com)

Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list.
Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com

Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com

This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: Thoughts on Objective-C++

[Gary L. Wade via Cocoa-dev]

If you wish to solve the problems you perceive to exist, you should join an 
Objective-C/Objective-C++ email list or hire developers experienced in those 
nuances.
--
Gary

> On Nov 11, 2019, at 10:47 AM, Turtle Creek Software via Cocoa-dev 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
>> 
>>> Obj-C++ *is* a superset of C++, so I’m not sure what you’re wishing for.
> 
> In source files Obj-C++ works great.  No complaints there. But headers and
> method declarations are Obj-C, which is C plus its own additions.
> 
> That means no use of const. All pointers instead of & references.  Both of
> those are good at turning run-time errors into compile-time.  No multiple
> inheritance, so we had to duplicate code in several places.  No
> initializing members in headers, so mystery bugs if you initialize in the
> wrong type of init.  No public/private to manage access. Etc. It was like
> going back to the early 90s. Doing without features we learned to use the
> hard way.
> 
> Make Objective-C a complete superset of C++ rather than C and it gains all
> the fantastic work that has gone into C++ over the past 20 years. Take
> advantage of folks from many places working on the language, not just half
> or 1/4 of the engineers at Apple.
> 
> Casey McDermott
> TurtleSoft.com
> 

___

Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com)

Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list.
Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com

Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com

This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: Thoughts on Objective-C++

[Turtle Creek Software via Cocoa-dev]

>> Obj-C++ *is* a superset of C++, so I’m not sure what you’re wishing for.

In source files Obj-C++ works great.  No complaints there. But headers and
method declarations are Obj-C, which is C plus its own additions.

That means no use of const. All pointers instead of & references.  Both of
those are good at turning run-time errors into compile-time.  No multiple
inheritance, so we had to duplicate code in several places.  No
initializing members in headers, so mystery bugs if you initialize in the
wrong type of init.  No public/private to manage access. Etc. It was like
going back to the early 90s. Doing without features we learned to use the
hard way.

Make Objective-C a complete superset of C++ rather than C and it gains all
the fantastic work that has gone into C++ over the past 20 years. Take
advantage of folks from many places working on the language, not just half
or 1/4 of the engineers at Apple.

Casey McDermott
TurtleSoft.com
___

Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com)

Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list.
Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com

Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com

This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: Thoughts on Objective-C++

[Jens Alfke via Cocoa-dev]

> On Nov 11, 2019, at 9:28 AM, Pier Bover  wrote:
> 
> AFAIK no Apple frameworks for Swift have been (or will be) open sourced 
> either.

Not higher-level ones, but the Swift standard libraries include the equivalent 
of most of Foundation. Which is a big deal, because the lack of an open-source 
Foundation was a big roadblock to cross-platform usage of Obj-C. (I tried to 
use GNUstep for a while, but at the time their class libraries were too limited 
and buggy.)

—Jens
___

Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com)

Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list.
Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com

Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com

This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: Thoughts on Objective-C++

[Pier Bover via Cocoa-dev]

> That’s more open than Obj-C, because Apple never open-sourced Foundation.

AFAIK no Apple frameworks for Swift have been (or will be) open sourced
either.

> MSVC and .NET are both fully closed, as far as I’m aware.

.NET Core is fully open source:
https://github.com/dotnet/core

AFAIK Core is only for servers but it's also coming to desktop apps:
https://devblogs.microsoft.com/dotnet/net-core-3-and-support-for-windows-desktop-applications/

On Mon, Nov 11, 2019 at 11:12 AM Jens Alfke via Cocoa-dev <
cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com> wrote:

>
> > On Nov 11, 2019, at 6:15 AM, Turtle Creek Software via Cocoa-dev <
> cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com> wrote:
> >
> > Then suggest that Cocoa would work better if Obj-C were a
> > superset of C++ rather than plain C.  Objective-C++ all the way down, not
> > just in source files.
>
> Obj-C++ is a superset of C++, so I’m not sure what you’re wishing for.
> There’s even pretty good interoperability between C++ and Obj-C objects:
> for example you can embed the former as an ivar, or make vectors of Obj-C
> classes.
>
> >  Objective-C and Cocoa will be deprecated soon, replaced by
> > Swift and SwiftUI. That way there is just one shiny new closed system for
> > all Apple hardware. So much simpler.
>
> You can’t really call it “closed” when the entire Swift toolchain and
> runtime libraries are open source, portable, and being actively used on
> other platforms. That’s more open than Obj-C, because Apple never
> open-sourced Foundation.
>
> And it’s much more open than the platform you’re decamping to. MSVC and
> .NET are both fully closed, as far as I’m aware. And I doubt C++-to-C#
> integration is that much smoother.
>
> —Jens
> ___
>
> Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com)
>
> Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list.
> Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com
>
> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
> https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/pierbover11%40gmail.com
>
> This email sent to pierbove...@gmail.com
>
___

Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com)

Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list.
Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com

Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com

This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: Thoughts on Objective-C++

[Jens Alfke via Cocoa-dev]

> On Nov 11, 2019, at 6:15 AM, Turtle Creek Software via Cocoa-dev 
>  wrote:
> 
> Then suggest that Cocoa would work better if Obj-C were a
> superset of C++ rather than plain C.  Objective-C++ all the way down, not
> just in source files.

Obj-C++ is a superset of C++, so I’m not sure what you’re wishing for. There’s 
even pretty good interoperability between C++ and Obj-C objects: for example 
you can embed the former as an ivar, or make vectors of Obj-C classes.

>  Objective-C and Cocoa will be deprecated soon, replaced by
> Swift and SwiftUI. That way there is just one shiny new closed system for
> all Apple hardware. So much simpler.

You can’t really call it “closed” when the entire Swift toolchain and runtime 
libraries are open source, portable, and being actively used on other 
platforms. That’s more open than Obj-C, because Apple never open-sourced 
Foundation.

And it’s much more open than the platform you’re decamping to. MSVC and .NET 
are both fully closed, as far as I’m aware. And I doubt C++-to-C# integration 
is that much smoother.

—Jens
___

Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com)

Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list.
Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com

Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com

This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com

Thoughts on Objective-C++

[Turtle Creek Software via Cocoa-dev]

This is the last bit of post-mortem from our failure with Cocoa. Thanks for
the patience of everyone who just wants to give or get tech answers here.

I was originally going to post about how modern C++ has far surpassed
Objective-C. Then suggest that Cocoa would work better if Obj-C were a
superset of C++ rather than plain C.  Objective-C++ all the way down, not
just in source files.  That would make cross-platform integration much
easier, and solve many of the problems we had.

However, after consideration, it seems obvious that Apple will never do
that. Instead, Objective-C and Cocoa will be deprecated soon, replaced by
Swift and SwiftUI. That way there is just one shiny new closed system for
all Apple hardware. So much simpler.

Maybe I'm wrong, but we have experienced enough past pivots and
bridge-burnings that another seems overdue.

Casey McDermott
TurtleSoft.com
___

Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com)

Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list.
Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com

Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com

This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com